Yes. "Replay value" is, inherently, a good way to judge a game. And by that token, almost ALL of the digital games that have come out in the last 15 years SUCK. Exceptions would be some multiplayer games, sports games, and abstract games.
Regarding Morrowind: "playthrough and still haven't seen everything" - this idea that games are about "seeing all the content" is a major, major problem. You see all the content of "Go" instantly, yet you can play it for a lifetime, and indeed people have played it intensely for four thousand years. Video games need to take note of the long history of games and learn something about their fundamental nature.
What's really frustrating about this is that the author, and everyone engaged in this debate, are all missing the real point. Everything is *not* amazing - not even close, but most of the people who are complaining are complaining about the wrong things.
The issue is that we have an extremely immature medium that has exploded into a cultural rock-star status way too quickly. In short, it has no idea what it is and what to do with itself. We use the term "video games" as a blanket term for simulators, toys, puzzles, interactive fiction, movies where you just have to press A every few minutes, and some actual games. The issue is that very few people in the industry, it seems, have a solid understanding of games to begin with.
"Every game is too short, although we never finish the games we play." This statement is just chock-full of incorrect implications about the nature of games. Games aren't something you "finish". Games aren't linear. Games don't have a "length" in the way that's being espoused here. A game is a system of rules in which one or more agents compete by making decisions.
The problem is we're building games as though they were movies, and there's a deep cultural problem behind this, which I call "game shame". Games are not considered to be on the level of other mediums, and so developers and gamers think that by emulating other mediums, games become more legitimate.
We need to look at the fundamentals of what a game is. Only then will we be able to improve in a significant way. I wrote more in depth about this on this post: http://www.dinofarmgames.com/?p=219
Perhaps what we need is to dilute a very small virus into a 120 gigabyte text file, over and over and over, and then run it in AUTOEXEC.BAT, that should solve it
I think I would hate this possibly even more than touch screens (if that's possible). What's wrong with having buttons? Am I the only one who enjoys the feedback of a good clicky button?
2D gameplay is generally best when playing on a 2D surface. All the problems come about from the discrepancy between 2D gameplay on a 3D surface.
-Keith
-www.expensiveplanetarium.com
...Except that Black Isle isn't a series, it was a development studio. (BTW, Black Isle lead design Leonard Boyarsky is now working for Blizzard on Diablo 3... may be interesting.)
I write frequently about this exact topic on my blog The Expensive Planetarium (www.expensiveplanetarium.com). There's so much focus on the quote "casual" gamer these days, and that word doesn't mean what it should to these people. Ideally, every game should be quick to learn, and difficult to master. Today it's "retarded to learn, retarded to master."
Let Tetris DS prove this to anyone who doubts my claim. Even though Tetris was a "casual game" when it came out back in the 80's, it had incredible depth and is as much fun to play today. The latest incarnation, driven by the 'casual fury', 'Tetris DS' is seriously a goddamn joke. Not only do you have SIX count em SIX "Next" boxes, AND a little "reserve" box where you can swap out a piece that you don't like, but get this: you can perpetually spin the piece at the bottom and it will never lock as long as you keep hitting a button. I'm serious. So therefore, the speed of the level means nothing. Not only that but you cannot turn any of these features off.
Well that may be, but mario kart as a series has sucked for a long time, it's designed so that no matter how bad you are you can still compete. This is done by making there be 'catch up' for slower racers and of course, the INSANE items that kill the entire track. Don't bother. Play old games and PC games instead.
I hate how no one is even bringing to the table the concept of REALLY changing what MMOs are. When MMOs first came out (UO and a few others), they were MMORPGs. Now, we have taken the RPG out of it, and not just to save letters. The games are un-dynamic, un-immersive and just not built for roleplaying. Since no one is even TALKING about this I guess it's a dream that will have to wait a long time.
I don't know a ton about the issue but I can tell you the MAIN reason I won't switch to Linux - computer games. Yes, yes, I know that wine supposedly does a good job of emulating windows for games etc, but it's just a hassle and there is the off chance that some games just won't work.
Also, operating system-switching is a pain in general. People only do it when they see something that makes their OS look like crap. (IE. Win98 -> WinXP). But I think the big problem is a lot of people are REALLY comfortable with XP. XP Does everything I want it to, and it does it pretty well. I'm happy. That's why I don't switch.
if people actually got to elect what they want, don't you think we'd have something better than Hillary and Barack? Don't you think we wouldn't be spending BILLIONS on retarded wars when not everyone is taken care of here?
My point is that the media is owned by big corporate interests and they don't want an outsider like Mike Gravel coming in and fighting for the people. Maybe we can't do anything about this whole problem, but at LEAST each of us as individuals should try to resist it instead of embracing it.
What about Mike Gravel? Is he automatically disqualified for being exactly what the people want? By not including him in this discussion you are allowing the media to choose our candidates for us, as long as you are satisfied with that, then fine.
CARBOHYDRATES are the most EVIL THING on the PLANET!!!
or at least so we're told so they can sell us a new line of no-carb products. 10 years from now it will be sodium, then it will be something else. it's called a marketing ploy. Enjoy your General Tso's!
Ya. Well, it makes sense I guess that Slashdot people can't figure this out, that the problem is a much wider-scoped artistic problem, not some kind of technical problem. But yes I agree on your points about hearing live music, that's very true. -keith
The people who CRANK the compression on their tracks are generally not worth listening to anyway. So who cares what the mainstream does? This is just one more reason why they are dying fast. Good artists like Tom Waits never do this.
Over the past ten years with the death/buying out of companies like Black Isle, Troika, Microprose, Clover, and about a hundred more that I'm forgetting... the hardcore lost their games long ago. Here's why:
What company would cater to a very small audience like the hardcore (Especially, noting that the hardcore gamers ESPECIALLY pc gamers are also very savvy to getting their software for free) when they could market to millions of little kids?
A friend of mine who works in the game industry and I always talk about this issue. Sometimes I feel very sold on the whole "screw 'em" to the super mega corporations arguement, but I also feel like there are so many facets to this issue. I feel like at this time, no one fully understands it, where it is going, and what we will do about it (if anything even CAN be done). It's an exciting time to be alive, one thing is for certain, that things already have changed a lot in our lifetimes and will change dramatically still before we come out of this strange transition period.
OBLIVION?!?!? Gross, sick, gross, ugh... The others are all definitely contenders as well for greatest RPG. Oblivion, now you wanna talk about putting graphics above all else, and THAT game is a the perfect candidate. Ugh, Oblivion. So much wrong with that game I can't even begin to list it.
Final Fantasy 6 is arguably the greatest RPG ever created, you idiot. The graphics are in fact beautiful, but most of that is because of one thing: Good art, not raised technology. FF6 is where the era of an epic, powerful, meaningful RPG
began and the "dragon warrior1-ish" old-style RPG ended. Most lovers of RPGs will agree with me that FF6 and/or FF7 belong in the top 5 RPGS of all time. That was the height of Square's artistic accomplisments, especially 6. For 7 they got a new art director who was not quite as good. But Uematsu's scores for 6 and 7 are un-beaten by any game before or since. I suggest you give FF6 a try and not just judge it because they used some Mode 7.
However, I will agree that 10 and on have been lacking in the "other-than-graphics" department and your main point does stand, that future FFs may choose to be on the PS3 due to screenshot-minded decision-making.
-Keith
insulting pixar is really dumb, they're one of the only good movie studios out there (Granted, Cars wasn't great. But the previous 3, ESPECIALLY incredibles, were EXCELLENT films.) Plus, incredibles wasnt "anthromorphizing" anything.
Slashdot Mirror
Yes. "Replay value" is, inherently, a good way to judge a game. And by that token, almost ALL of the digital games that have come out in the last 15 years SUCK. Exceptions would be some multiplayer games, sports games, and abstract games. Regarding Morrowind: "playthrough and still haven't seen everything" - this idea that games are about "seeing all the content" is a major, major problem. You see all the content of "Go" instantly, yet you can play it for a lifetime, and indeed people have played it intensely for four thousand years. Video games need to take note of the long history of games and learn something about their fundamental nature.
What's really frustrating about this is that the author, and everyone engaged in this debate, are all missing the real point. Everything is *not* amazing - not even close, but most of the people who are complaining are complaining about the wrong things. The issue is that we have an extremely immature medium that has exploded into a cultural rock-star status way too quickly. In short, it has no idea what it is and what to do with itself. We use the term "video games" as a blanket term for simulators, toys, puzzles, interactive fiction, movies where you just have to press A every few minutes, and some actual games. The issue is that very few people in the industry, it seems, have a solid understanding of games to begin with. "Every game is too short, although we never finish the games we play." This statement is just chock-full of incorrect implications about the nature of games. Games aren't something you "finish". Games aren't linear. Games don't have a "length" in the way that's being espoused here. A game is a system of rules in which one or more agents compete by making decisions. The problem is we're building games as though they were movies, and there's a deep cultural problem behind this, which I call "game shame". Games are not considered to be on the level of other mediums, and so developers and gamers think that by emulating other mediums, games become more legitimate. We need to look at the fundamentals of what a game is. Only then will we be able to improve in a significant way. I wrote more in depth about this on this post: http://www.dinofarmgames.com/?p=219
Perhaps what we need is to dilute a very small virus into a 120 gigabyte text file, over and over and over, and then run it in AUTOEXEC.BAT, that should solve it
I think I would hate this possibly even more than touch screens (if that's possible). What's wrong with having buttons? Am I the only one who enjoys the feedback of a good clicky button?
How is being "behind other gamers" even worth mentioning? Is that important on any level at all?
Yes.
I kinda pictured the Slashdot community as being above this slot machine of a game. =[
2D gameplay is generally best when playing on a 2D surface. All the problems come about from the discrepancy between 2D gameplay on a 3D surface. -Keith -www.expensiveplanetarium.com
...Except that Black Isle isn't a series, it was a development studio. (BTW, Black Isle lead design Leonard Boyarsky is now working for Blizzard on Diablo 3... may be interesting.) I write frequently about this exact topic on my blog The Expensive Planetarium (www.expensiveplanetarium.com). There's so much focus on the quote "casual" gamer these days, and that word doesn't mean what it should to these people. Ideally, every game should be quick to learn, and difficult to master. Today it's "retarded to learn, retarded to master." Let Tetris DS prove this to anyone who doubts my claim. Even though Tetris was a "casual game" when it came out back in the 80's, it had incredible depth and is as much fun to play today. The latest incarnation, driven by the 'casual fury', 'Tetris DS' is seriously a goddamn joke. Not only do you have SIX count em SIX "Next" boxes, AND a little "reserve" box where you can swap out a piece that you don't like, but get this: you can perpetually spin the piece at the bottom and it will never lock as long as you keep hitting a button. I'm serious. So therefore, the speed of the level means nothing. Not only that but you cannot turn any of these features off.
Well that may be, but mario kart as a series has sucked for a long time, it's designed so that no matter how bad you are you can still compete. This is done by making there be 'catch up' for slower racers and of course, the INSANE items that kill the entire track. Don't bother. Play old games and PC games instead.
I hate how no one is even bringing to the table the concept of REALLY changing what MMOs are. When MMOs first came out (UO and a few others), they were MMORPGs. Now, we have taken the RPG out of it, and not just to save letters. The games are un-dynamic, un-immersive and just not built for roleplaying. Since no one is even TALKING about this I guess it's a dream that will have to wait a long time.
I don't know a ton about the issue but I can tell you the MAIN reason I won't switch to Linux - computer games. Yes, yes, I know that wine supposedly does a good job of emulating windows for games etc, but it's just a hassle and there is the off chance that some games just won't work. Also, operating system-switching is a pain in general. People only do it when they see something that makes their OS look like crap. (IE. Win98 -> WinXP). But I think the big problem is a lot of people are REALLY comfortable with XP. XP Does everything I want it to, and it does it pretty well. I'm happy. That's why I don't switch.
if people actually got to elect what they want, don't you think we'd have something better than Hillary and Barack? Don't you think we wouldn't be spending BILLIONS on retarded wars when not everyone is taken care of here? My point is that the media is owned by big corporate interests and they don't want an outsider like Mike Gravel coming in and fighting for the people. Maybe we can't do anything about this whole problem, but at LEAST each of us as individuals should try to resist it instead of embracing it.
What about Mike Gravel? Is he automatically disqualified for being exactly what the people want? By not including him in this discussion you are allowing the media to choose our candidates for us, as long as you are satisfied with that, then fine.
CARBOHYDRATES are the most EVIL THING on the PLANET!!! or at least so we're told so they can sell us a new line of no-carb products. 10 years from now it will be sodium, then it will be something else. it's called a marketing ploy. Enjoy your General Tso's!
Ya. Well, it makes sense I guess that Slashdot people can't figure this out, that the problem is a much wider-scoped artistic problem, not some kind of technical problem. But yes I agree on your points about hearing live music, that's very true. -keith
The people who CRANK the compression on their tracks are generally not worth listening to anyway. So who cares what the mainstream does? This is just one more reason why they are dying fast. Good artists like Tom Waits never do this.
IMMUNOGEN! Why didn't we think of it sooner!
Over the past ten years with the death/buying out of companies like Black Isle, Troika, Microprose, Clover, and about a hundred more that I'm forgetting... the hardcore lost their games long ago. Here's why: What company would cater to a very small audience like the hardcore (Especially, noting that the hardcore gamers ESPECIALLY pc gamers are also very savvy to getting their software for free) when they could market to millions of little kids?
A friend of mine who works in the game industry and I always talk about this issue. Sometimes I feel very sold on the whole "screw 'em" to the super mega corporations arguement, but I also feel like there are so many facets to this issue. I feel like at this time, no one fully understands it, where it is going, and what we will do about it (if anything even CAN be done). It's an exciting time to be alive, one thing is for certain, that things already have changed a lot in our lifetimes and will change dramatically still before we come out of this strange transition period.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9HaNbsIfp0
OBLIVION?!?!? Gross, sick, gross, ugh... The others are all definitely contenders as well for greatest RPG. Oblivion, now you wanna talk about putting graphics above all else, and THAT game is a the perfect candidate. Ugh, Oblivion. So much wrong with that game I can't even begin to list it.
Final Fantasy 6 is arguably the greatest RPG ever created, you idiot. The graphics are in fact beautiful, but most of that is because of one thing: Good art, not raised technology. FF6 is where the era of an epic, powerful, meaningful RPG began and the "dragon warrior1-ish" old-style RPG ended. Most lovers of RPGs will agree with me that FF6 and/or FF7 belong in the top 5 RPGS of all time. That was the height of Square's artistic accomplisments, especially 6. For 7 they got a new art director who was not quite as good. But Uematsu's scores for 6 and 7 are un-beaten by any game before or since. I suggest you give FF6 a try and not just judge it because they used some Mode 7. However, I will agree that 10 and on have been lacking in the "other-than-graphics" department and your main point does stand, that future FFs may choose to be on the PS3 due to screenshot-minded decision-making. -Keith
Oblivion sucks. Morrowind is better in every way, except for combat and (arguably) graphics.
insulting pixar is really dumb, they're one of the only good movie studios out there (Granted, Cars wasn't great. But the previous 3, ESPECIALLY incredibles, were EXCELLENT films.) Plus, incredibles wasnt "anthromorphizing" anything.