Review: Wrath of the Lich King

Since shortly after its release in late 2004, World of Warcraft has held the position of the most popular MMO, quickly outstripping predecessors such as Everquest and Ultima Online, and continuing to hold the lead despite competition from contemporaries and newer offerings, like Warhammer Online. When World of Warcraft's first expansion, The Burning Crusade, was released, it built on an already rich world by using feedback from players and two extra years of design experience to work on condensing the game to focus more on the best parts. Now, with the release of Wrath of the Lich King, Blizzard seems to have gotten themselves ahead of the curve; in addition to the many changes intended to remove the "grind" aspect that is so prevalent in this genre, they've gone on to effectively put themselves in the player's shoes and ask, "What would make this more fun? Wouldn't it be cool if..?" Read on for the rest of my thoughts.

• Title: World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King
• Developer: Blizzard Entertainment
• Publisher: Activision Blizzard
• System: PC
• Reviewer: Soulskill
• Score: 9/10

The first thing you'll notice as you set foot on the expansion's new continent, Northrend, is that the art is extremely well done and the vistas are visually impressive. During the first expansion, the primary mode of travel shifted from land-based mounts to much faster flying mounts, and it's clear that the designers of Northrend kept this well in mind. The size and scope of everything has been ratcheted up, from soaring spires and mountains to massive icebergs to spacious valleys and canyons. One of the early zones, Howling Fjord, starts you off looking up at incredibly high cliffs with nothing but a rickety wood-and-chain elevator to help you reach the top. While doing quests at the base of the cliffs, you can't help but wonder, "What's up there?" Later in the zone, you'll find grassy fields and misty forests gradually giving way to snow, ice formations, and new buildings that are a big step up, artistically, from what was seen in the original game, or even the first expansion. The various creatures you encounter are new and more detailed as well. Sleek, aggressive-looking Proto-drakes circle lazily above a burning forest and enormous Storm Giants stomp through the plains, catching unsuspecting adventurers by surprise and leading to more than a few untimely deaths. Fan-favorite Murlocs have undergone a transformation, appearing all the more ready to make a meal of you. Even the seas have gotten more detailed; icebergs look like nothing that could have come out of the original game, and the waters are now teeming with Warcraft-ized orca, hammerheads, and walruses.

Each zone brings a unique art style. Soon after finishing the starting zones, you'll enter Dragonblight, where the skeletons of giant dragons litter the frozen tundra and battles between dragonflights rage overheard. Again, the kinds of things you'll see in Wrath of the Lich King just didn't happen in the original game, and rarely in The Burning Crusade. There are plenty of spots where the design team clearly said, "Ok, let's set this up so the players will just get here and stare at it for five minutes before remembering what they're doing." If you enjoyed exploring earlier parts of the game, Wrath of the Lich King will blow you away. One of the later zones, Storm Peaks, is exactly what it sounds like; a dark, snowy mountain range in which you'll find yourself traveling up and down as much as side to side. The absurdly high mountaintops give the area an epic feel, but Blizzard didn't stop there. Rising up from many peaks are ancient structures, or ruins in some cases. They do wonders for arousing curiosity, and you clearly get the impression that Something Big was here. The northern part of the zone where the dungeons are located is a stronghold for giants, originally built for the Titans, according to Warcraft lore, and it definitely looks the part.

One of the major headlines of Wrath of the Lich King was the introduction of the game's first new class — the Death Knight. Dubbed a "Hero Class," it is only available to players who already have another character at level 55 or higher, but the Death Knight itself starts at level 55, rather than level 1. This is partly due to the class' level of complexity, which is slightly higher than most others, and also to encourage players to try them out by not requiring the time involved to go level up from the very beginning. The Death Knight's resource management system is based on runes and runic power. You start out with six runes available, and using your abilities will consume one or more of them. The runes will then refresh themselves after 10 seconds, giving you the opportunity to use them again. Abilities also generate runic power, which can be used to fuel other spells. Death Knights can wear plate armor, and are intended for use as a "tank" class as well as dealing damage. They use big, two-handed weapons while tanking, rather than a one-hander and a shield, and they're stronger than most against magic. The class was balanced quite well by the extensive beta testing, though minor tuning is still underway to bring each of the three talent trees in line with Blizzard's goals. If you do nothing else in this expansion, it's worth starting a Death Knight and going through the introductory quest line; the story and visual effects are amazing.

Wrath raises the level cap from 70 to 80, so you'll spend most of your time questing and (should you choose) running dungeons for your first few weeks (depending on how much you play, and to what lengths you're willing go for efficiency; the first player to reach level 80 did so only 27 hours after the expansion launched). Gear has effectively been reset again, but not as severely as it was in The Burning Crusade. Powerful level 70 items will last in some cases all the way to level 80, but they should be replaced quickly once you start doing "endgame" activities. Actually getting to 80 isn't a problem; you should make it there with hundreds of quests to spare. Much like the first expansion, Wrath packs quests quite densely throughout most of the zones, so you needn't feel compelled to finish quests that don't interest you or do group quests when you'd rather fly solo (although the rewards for such are often good). The quests themselves are as much a step up from The Burning Crusade as it was over the original game. Many still follow the standard MMO format of "Go slay 10 demonbears," or "Go collect 10 cow eggs," but the quests tell stories, ranging from small and self-contained to grand and overarching. They paint a very clear picture of what's happening in Northrend, and what its inhabitants are doing to fight the Lich King.

In addition to those basic quests, Blizzard did quite a bit to spice things up. One of the most popular quest lines of the first expansion was an arena event in which you and your comrades fought off an increasingly difficult series of enemies. Wrath has three such events, each with its own story and flavor. Bombing runs are back, but they now usually make use of a new vehicle system which lets you hop on a creature or contraption and control its unique selection of abilities. One quest gives you a tank you use to rampage through a field of thickly packed undead, using the buzz-saw on the front to cut down any in your path. Another has you riding on an airborne troop transport, dropping smoke flares by the harpoon launchers of an enemy encampment to protect your allies as they are deployed to fight. One of the more epic quests lets you take control of a massive Storm Giant and use it to take out an even more colossal boss while crushing swarms of skeletons underfoot. Another way Blizzard found to keep things interesting is what they call "phasing" technology. One of the long-standing complaints about the MMO genre is that there is very little permanence to a player's actions. When Player A rescues a princess from an evil wizard's tower, he's very shortly going to turn around and see her back in the tower, waiting for the next player to do the same quest. Either that, or when Player B comes along, the princess is already saved, and he missed out on that content. Blizzard's solution was to implement different "phases" of an otherwise static zone. You'll start out in the beginning phase, during which, for example, a town is under attack. Completing a quest to fight off the attack bumps you into the next phase, where the town is safe and its fighting force is going on the offensive. Now, a player who hadn't done that quest could come from the same place as you, and stand where you're standing, but you and he would see two different things. His town still needs saving, yours doesn't. This is used to great effect in Icecrown, one of the later zones. You get the feeling as you do quests that you're really taking over parts of the zone; towns spring up, one-time battles are fought, and the appearance of the zone at the end is quite different from at the beginning. Another great use of this technology is for an invasion of one of the old capitol cities. You ride to its defense alongside faction leaders, participating in a good balance of plot and action.

The instanced dungeons in Northrend are also a step up over their predecessors. As with the outside world, they've gotten bigger and more impressive, often setting the group's path against an expansive backdrop to make it seem like you have a ton of room, even when you don't. Blizzard whittled down the length of most instances, aiming for a start-to-finish time of roughly an hour. The "trash" mobs between bosses are typically few and varied; the progress made since the original game in that regard is quite evident. You no longer have to worry that hopping into a group with random strangers could turn into a three-hour affair. Blizzard has gone out of their way to create new and interesting boss scenarios as well. An instance called "The Oculus" is a disjointed series of platforms which can only be accessed by flying. After finishing off the first boss, you free a group of NPCs which offer you a choice in Drakes to ride — Red, Yellow or Green — each of which has its own abilities. It behaves like a vehicle; you direct its flight path and choose when to fire off spells, and it carries you from platform to platform where you'll find later bosses. For the last boss in the instance, you actually use the drakes to fight, battling with spells far too powerful for a normal character to control. In another instance, one of the bosses hops on his flying mount and heads outside while you fight your way through a gauntlet of smaller NPCs to reach the end of a hallway. Periodically, he'll drop down and blast one side of the hallway with ice, making an already hectic fight even more dangerous. When you reach the end of the hallway, you'll find harpoon launchers which you use to shoot down his mount and force him to land and fight. One of the instances in The Burning Crusade had a boss which would use mind-control to make your group fight each other for a brief time before resuming the battle as normal. Wrath of the Lich King takes this one step further; the last boss in one of the new instances casts a spell which will dump each player into his own phase and spawn copies of that player's groupmates. The copies then try to kill him. Each player is tasked with killing their own group to survive. As they succeed, they're shunted into other players' phases until they're all back in the original, at which point they re-engage the boss.

Heroic Dungeons return in Wrath, giving players the option of a harder version of an instance that results in better loot. They're tuned better this time around; Blizzard wanted to make the transition from normal dungeons to heroics to raids a smooth one, and they've done a much better job than at the beginning of the first expansion. They've also expanded the "heroic" philosophy to raids as well. Now each raid dungeon has two settings; a "normal" 10-man version, and a "heroic" 25-man version, each tuned appropriately for the size of the group. Wrath launched with four introductory-level raids, and more difficult ones are planned for the next few content patches in the coming months. As we discussed previously, the current raids have been conquered already, but unless you're willing to devote many, many hours to playing the game, reaching the end of the content before more is released won't be an issue for you. Blizzard revisited Naxxramas, a raid instance hailed as the best in the original game, but one that only a few percent of the World of Warcraft population ever got to see. It's now the primary starter raid, tuned to be much more forgiving than it was in 2006, but still able to make unprepared groups struggle. The other raids are quick, involving one boss each, compared to the 15 in Naxxramas. The fight against Malygos is an encounter where Blizzard shows off just how cool they can make a boss fight; if you don't mind spoilers, you can take a look at a video and explanation of the fight from the folks at TankSpot. One of the other raid bosses, Sartharion, lets the players decide how difficult they want the fight to be. Sartharion is a dragon, and in his lair, there are three drake mini-bosses which can be quickly and easily killed beforehand if the raid so chooses. If they aren't killed, they join in the fight when the raid takes on Sartharion himself. You can choose to leave one, two, or all three drakes alive, effectively giving the fight four difficulty settings. The more difficult the encounter, the better loot you'll receive. Very few raids can manage the fight with all drakes alive at this point. Blizzard has stated that we can expect to see more of this type of selective challenge. It allows them to tune the raids such that more people can see and complete them, but still give the more hardcore players something tough to work on.

Blizzard has done a number of other things to make the game more player-friendly. Professions have been revamped in several ways. First, all professions will, in some way, make your character more powerful, either through crafted gear or through passive bonuses. Second, those bonuses are available sooner, so you don't necessarily need to drop thousands of gold grinding out the last few points in order to get that upgrade. Third, recipes are mostly easier to obtain now. The developers have instituted an interesting system for Jewelcrafting in particular: Each day you can do a quest once which will give you a currency token. You can then spend those tokens to purchase many different recipes. This does two things; it guarantees that all of those recipes will be attainable eventually for minimal work, and it lets you choose which ones you want to get first. They've also made other, PvP-related recipes available by simply engaging in PvP. A few still drop in various spots around the world, but they're much less rare than the ones in The Burning Crusade . Others drop at the end of instances, and yet more are made available by increasing reputation with some of the factions scattered around Northrend. Virtually everything you do will make progress toward filling out the profession. Other professions have similar mechanics, but aren't as fleshed-out. Alchemy and the new profession, Inscription, have "discovery" abilities which will allow you to learn new things, but have a lengthy cooldown. As with Jewelcrafting, it's nice that you'll get everything eventually, but in this case you have little control over which "discovered" recipes you learn. Inscription itself is interesting; you essentially enchant your spells and abilities to behave in a slightly different manner. Often you can sacrifice an unimportant aspect of a spell to make it better in another way; for example, one of the Mage glyphs increases the damage on their Frostbolt spell, but removes the slowing effect placed on the target.

Tanking has received a huge make-over in Wrath. No longer is the focus on building threat; it's more about mitigating damage. This removes a lot of the headaches involved in grouping with strangers. Tanks also do quite a bit more damage than they did in the past, making it more fun for people who like to see big numbers. The success of instance groups used to rely almost exclusively on the tank and healer, and while they're still very important, the focus has shifted more to include the damage-dealers. Many fights are significantly easier with better damage output (and some are almost impossible without). It's a welcome change; all members of the group should contribute to its success. Reputation grinds have been made easier as well. Instead of using the method of the first expansion where running dungeons in a particular place increased your reputation with a particular faction, they now use a "championing" system. Wearing the tabard of whichever faction you choose will allow you to gain reputation with that faction regardless of which dungeon you enter. So, you can always run your favorite instance, or do a different one every night while still working toward whatever reward you'd like. That seems to be one of the major themes of Wrath; putting choice back into the players' hands.

PvP has been a bit slow to get started, since many players are still on their way to the level cap. The next arena season is due to start in a couple weeks, after which I'm sure we'll see a round of minor nerfs and buffs to smooth out any issues that arise. Wintergrasp is alive and thriving, however, as the first dedicated world-PvP zone. The concept is simple; one faction controls the central keep while the other tries to break through the walls and capture it. Fighting and scoring kills will increase your rank during a battle, which will allow you to drive increasingly powerful siege vehicles. You can use them to knock down walls, chuck barrels of poison vast distances, or to try to run over enemy players swarming around your wheels. Defenders can man turrets as well. Blizzard has tried to address faction imbalances with a buff called "Tenacity." It essentially makes you more powerful the more your faction is out-manned. In extreme cases, it can turn players into the equivalent of raid bosses — ones that know to take out your healers first. The faction that controls Wintergrasp also has access to a raid dungeon, and the boss inside drops PvP gear. It's a fun, quick way to cap off a victory. One of the things I like best about Wintergrasp is the spacing between the battles. A battle lasts for a maximum of 40 minutes, and when it's over, it's over. A new one won't start for another couple hours, so there's little reason to stick around. The new battleground, Strand of the Ancients, also makes use of vehicles and an attacker/defender relationship. It's definitely a break from the old battlegrounds, but a welcome one. Honor point rewards for both are pretty good — unfortunately, if the costs for PvP gear from the beta are to be believed, the effort involved to build a PvP set will be the last serious grind left in the game.

When Blizzard first announced Wrath of the Lich King, there was speculation about whether it would continue the success of The Burning Crusade or if the World of Warcraft juggernaut would finally begin to run out of steam, as MMOs often do several years into their life. With the early previews and later throughout the beta, we got hints that such was not the case. Now that we've had time to explore the finished version of Wrath (or at least as "finished" as any MMO project ever is) it's clear that the legendary "Blizzard polish" is there, in addition to a great deal of innovation within a single game. They're not just releasing the equivalent of new maps and models and skins — the whole game is evolving into something much more consistent and coherent than the original game. If any company in the MMO game industry could afford to rest on their laurels, it's Blizzard — but they're not. And I already wonder what they'll have in store for the next expansion.

Comments

Cheese runner

[weave]

As I camped in the cheese shop waiting for some wine to spawn so I could complete a daily runner quest for the cook in the Dalaran inn, I thought about all the battles I've fought and the thousands who have died from my powerful spells. Wow, can life get any better that this?!

Re:Cheese runner

[jamie]

The mages in Dalaran were teleporting cities back when you were killing Scrawny Rats for coppers. You better smile when you hand them their wine.

Re:Cheese runner

[weave]

The mages in Dalaran were teleporting cities back when you were killing Scrawny Rats for coppers. You better smile when you hand them their wine.

And I have a lower UID than you do!

Ah, er, at least right now I do ... if I don't get banned,

/cower jamie
weave cower's in fear at the sight of jamie

Re:Cheese runner

[megamerican]

That quest is one of the only humane in the game. Many of the quests are horrifying if it weren't cartoonish.

You get to torture a prisoner with electricity, throw molotov cocktails at starving trolls, poke young apes with a sharp stick to piss off its mother and many other disturbing things.

It's like they read a report from Amnesty International on Iraq and made quests with them!

Re:Cheese runner

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG, what have I just witnessed!?

Re:Cheese runner

[jbezorg]

Still... It being close to X-mas all I can think of now is:

Ding! Wine is spawned!
Ding! Wine is spawned!
I cook in Dalaran and I wear a epic hat.
Would you like some Rhino Dogs with 'dat?

Re:Cheese runner

[papasui]

Only if I was Jack Sparrow and random hot girls showed me their tits on a frequent basis.

Re:Cheese runner

[Anonymous Coward]

The start of something beautiful (Read: lots of hot, sweaty cybering).

Re:Cheese runner

[Enry]

n00b

Re:Cheese runner

[papasui]

I'm fond of the daily one in Moa'ki Harbor that involves killing the mother and stealing her kids.

Re:Cheese runner

[tygt]

If you're talking about the "Planning for the Future" daily, the quickest way I've found to do this, if you can take some damage, is to run through and grab the young without engaging in combat.

With this strategy you avoid fighting (and stray damage will kill the young) and can pick them up while being beat on.

Note that if you attack something, you can't pick up the young again until you go out of combat, but being hit doesn't put you into that state.

Of course none of this changes the fact that you're engaging in some 1930s-type Canadian/Australian-style cultural genocide (taking young from families to raise in a different society), but given a choice between complete genocide (kill them all) versus a cultural shift (teach them not to kill us and live peacefully together), I think the choice is reasonable.

Re:Cheese runner

[abe ferlman]

Nice try, but the wine is for the skinning vendor Glowergold, who can't tell a cheese tray from an old shield. Feel free to insult him as you hand him his backwash-laden wine.

Re:Cheese runner

[psydeshow]

The mages in Dalaran were teleporting cities back when you were killing Scrawny Rats for coppers. You better smile when you hand them their wine.

And I have a lower UID than you do!

OMG, what have I just witnessed!?

Amazing.

Re:Cheese runner

[Anonymous Coward]

The cheese shop is used in 2 of the daily cooking quests, one to get cheese (and 6 half drunk glasses of wine) and one to get a jug of wine (and 12 Northern Stew).

Re:Cheese runner

[mog007]

Isn't one of the definitions of genocide the act of taking the children away from their families and brainwashing them, as defined by the guy who coined the term back in the late 40's - early 50's?

Re:Cheese runner

[indy_Muad'Dib]

what no tasty cupcakes?

Re:Cheese runner

[CthulhuDreamer]

...(and 6 half drunk glasses of wine)...

Of all the quests we've had to do, this is one of the ones that's bothered me the most. I wonder how much of this goes on in a real-world restaurant?

Narrator: Clean food, please.
Waiter: In that case, sir, may I advise against the lady eating clam chowder?
Narrator: No clam chowder, thank you.

Re:Cheese runner

[dr00g911]

That's part of the overarching theme of the expansion.

Arthas' own personal road to hell was paved with the best of intentions, but he was only capable of seeing the world in stark black and white -- no middle ground. Blizzard wants you to squirm at some of the tasks you're set to carry out. They want you to disagree with (if not outright hate) your overzealous faction leaders (I'm looking at you Varian & Garrosh).

You get involved that way, and I've found it's been remarkably effective in making me feel like *I* accomplished (spoilers here). I was actually completely hooked with the forsaken, storm peaks and icecrown quest chains.

That's the beauty of the Alliance/Horde deal. There are no true "good guys" or "bad guys"... just shades of gray, and there's a slippery slope next to the moral high ground. Pretty sure that's the parallel to Arthas' fall that they're intending to make.

Yes, I think the writing and pacing were quite good this time out. :)

Part of that is evoking ANY kind of feeling when you're doing quests, even if it's reprehensible stuff. You connect that way.

Re:Cheese runner

[dr00g911]

Ew, replying to myself.

Had to clarify one bit... by Arthas, I mean Arthas Menethil, NOT The Lich King. Arthas is (debatibly) part of the psyche of the Lich King, and is his body.

Depending on how far you've gotten in Icecrown, you might have learned that they're not necessarily one and the same (from a little human ghost child that keeps randomly popping up, whose name is an anagram). They don't come out explicitly and say it, but I'm betting that they want the Arthas half of the Lich King to be sympathetic. Bad choices made with the best of intentions, up to a point. And they've succeeded. Won't go into any more detail as not to spoil those who are taking the content slowly (which I recommend).

Really interested to see where the storyline picks up once we're able to face the Lich King himself. Things might not work out quite how people have been assuming.

Re:Cheese runner

[Chris Burke]

You get to torture a prisoner with electricity, throw molotov cocktails at starving trolls, poke young apes with a sharp stick to piss off its mother and many other disturbing things.

Meh. Having already helped the Forsaken devise a new version of the plague that created them in order to wipe out the Alliance (and others?), a little bit of torture didn't seem like it was that bad.

I did love how the guy says "Oh, we in the Kirin Tor can't use such tactics... so I'm just going to hand you this little magic mind-stabber, and rearrange these shelves while you do whatever you want to do." Remind you of anything?

Re:Cheese runner

[jbezorg]

Though tasty cupcake is a much better parallel to an apple pie, alas, gotta' keep the same syllable count when doing a parody song ( of a parody song ) or it throws off the tempo.

Re:Cheese runner

[GodfatherofSoul]

My all time favorite quest: "motivating" lazy peons with a blackjack in orc noob land!

Re:Cheese runner

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed 100%. I fully look forward to what is going to happen in the citadel, because I doubt anything will be a knock-down-drag-out fight when there's shards of good to redeem... even if the supposed "last chance" was damaged by Tirion.

Remember what happened the last time the artifact embedded in that sword came in contact with powerful magic?

Re:Cheese runner

[LithiumX]

Isn't one of the definitions of genocide the act of taking the children away from their families and brainwashing them, as defined by the guy who coined the term back in the late 40's - early 50's?

You mean like MTV?

Re:Cheese runner

[bugnuts]

You get to torture a prisoner with electricity, throw molotov cocktails at starving trolls, poke young apes with a sharp stick to piss off its mother and many other disturbing things

I did one [of several(!)] torture quest until the guy spilled the beans.

Man was that needler fun to use. I stayed there and zapped him at least another 5 minutes. The Dalaran mage that put me to the task left the tower in tears.

Actually, I forgot what he said and why I even tortured him. What a great game!

Next up - The Scat in the Hat, Digging Through Poo! It's stanktastic.

Re:Cheese runner

[bckrispi]

Arthas' own personal road to hell was paved with the best of intentions, but he was only capable of seeing the world in stark black and white -- no middle ground.

In the AD&D 2nd Edition Player's Handbook, they described what behaviors would cause a Paladin to lose his abilities permanently. The "textbook" example was the Paladin who, upon entering a city suffering from an epidemic, razes the city to the ground in order to stop the disease from spreading. Funny, how the "Paladin" Arthas in Warcraft III began his fall by entering a city suffering from an epidemic, and razing the city to the ground in order to stop the disease from spreading.

Re:Cheese runner

[Starayo]

The "starving trolls" are undead scourge, the prisoner is part of a group that wants to kill every magic-user ever...

I'm not saying the expansion isn't darker than previously, just that most of the actions aren't all that evil on the grand scheme of things, y'know? The most outright evil were the death knight starter quests. Granted, I haven't done icecrown yet...

Regardless, most of these things shouldn't be an issue. It's a game, they're pixels. To quote a highly annoying show that my twelve-year-old sister won't. Stop. Watching.

Joey: "You didn't cry when Bambi's mom died?"
Chandler: "Yes, it was so sad when the guy stopped drawing the deer."

Re:Cheese runner

[GaryOlson]

Dr. Gregory House?

Re:Cheese runner

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I quite like the poking ape babies one. I was in two minds whether to hand it in, cos I wanted to keep the poking stick.

Re:Cheese runner

[megamerican]

You mean like MTV?

Public education would be more applicable. If the government starts mandating everyone to watch MTV for 8 hours a day then I'd agree with you.

Re:Cheese runner

[megamerican]

It reminds me of the 2nd Planet of the Apes movie, where the humans who lived underground worshipped a nuclear bomb and called it a peace weapon. They had developed psychic type powers.

It's kind of like the UN calling their soldiers "peacekeeping" troops (who get accused of raping innocent people in Africa all the time).

Re:Cheese runner

[Chris Burke]

It's kind of like the UN calling their soldiers "peacekeeping" troops (who get accused of raping innocent people in Africa all the time).

Er, well, what I was going for was the CIA getting around their rules against torture (such as they were!) by sending suspects to countries that have zero problem with torture. It's the "we don't torture, oh no... so why don't you do it for us and tell us what happens?" thing.

The UN Peacekeeper rape scandals would be more like if the Kirin Tor mage said "We are not allowed to use such tactics... LOL." and proceeded to zap the shit out of the captive.

Re:Cheese runner

[DrVomact]

Part of that is evoking ANY kind of feeling when you're doing quests, even if it's reprehensible stuff. You connect that way.

Yeah, it made me "connect" when I started my Death Knight and was told to slay some helpless prisoner. There was no option for "Do your own damned killing, you pompous teakettle", so I don't have a Death Knight in the game. I'm funny that way.

Re:Cheese runner

[LithiumX]

There's not a lot of brainwashing in public education. What children learn is so watered-down, so politically correct, and so heavily shielded that they really don't come out of high school with anything like an opinion on much of anything.

For instance, instead of arguing over whether Intelligent Design should be taught in school, with the inevitable stalemate and pendulum-swing of opinion, the sensible thing would be to put it where it belongs - Social Studies. Instead, the arguing and wrangling effectively keeps kids from being exposed to any opinions at all - when we should be loading them with many opinions and letting them sort it out for themselves later.

Re:Cheese runner

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh my god! An actual antediluvian slashdotter! What an honour to meet you sir.

Re:Cheese runner

[SL Baur]

That quest is disturbing. One of the other dailies for that faction, where you net some fish, then lead a Reef Bull across the bay by throwing fish at him where he falls in love with a Reef Cow is hilarious. The final rewards for Exalted rep with that faction (the 186DPS epic fishing pole and Penguin vanity pet) are worth it though.

I did not like the Death Knight starting quests at all, least of all the grand welcome I got entering Stormwind City the first time ...

Re:Cheese runner

[ArsonSmith]

I haven't played much, but I think the death knight story line is along the lines that you want. You realize you're doing bad things and decided to move away from that.

Re:Cheese runner

[howman]

OMG your still alive... ;)

Re:Cheese runner

[SL Baur]

Yeah, it made me "connect" when I started my Death Knight and was told to slay some helpless prisoner. There was no option for "Do your own damned killing, you pompous teakettle", so I don't have a Death Knight in the game. I'm funny that way.

It gets worse after that. In one quest you have to kill a bunch of townspeople and they are either running away from you or cowering in terror inside the buildings. It sure gives one a good feeling to kill women and children NPCs who do not fight back.

I hated the Death Knight starting quests. Hated them. On my way to pledge allegiance to King Wrynn, I rather sympathized with the NPCs throwing rotten fruit and insults at me along the way.

The Death Knight is an awesome class if you can get past the beginning. I do not blame you if you cannot. The starting quests suck big time.

Re:Cheese runner

[dr00g911]

I'm inclined to disagree here. I loved the entry quests, and the entire fact that some people are having trouble carrying out their orders and have such a strong aversion to what they're being asked to do means they're allowing themselves to become immersed in the world and/or character.

You're forced to do some very, very bad things in a semi-gleeful fashion until that prisoner execution quest -- and the designers just ratchet up the guilt at that point. You start to squirm when you're asked to do over-the-top stuff after that point. You WANT to be good. That's the idea.

I thought it was incredibly effective and well-done.

But, then again, I generally prefer anti-heroes (like Thrall), and I see the world in a few more shades of gray than a lot of folks. I've known quite a few who couldn't stomach the Death Knight starting story, but if you're involved enough to get squeamish or have a strong reaction one way or another, I'd argue that you're getting pretty good immersion there.

Re:Cheese runner

[dr00g911]

I think you're on to something there.

There's a quest line in Icecrown that explicitly shows what lengths that the forces of Light will go to redeem the faithful, no matter the cost, and unlike most of WoW, it takes itself incredibly seriously.

I was halfway through that questline, and I began thinking to myself "going through so much effort to save one individual... this can't end well" -- and let's just say that I felt a bit guilty for my own cynicism at the end.

But what cost is there to tear apart the fabric of reality to save just one soul from damnation? It's certainly non-trivial based on the difficulty presented in the story.

After that point you start meeting the ghost child I've mentioned, and are given the opportunity to walk a few miles in someone else's shoes.

I know that WoW plays fast and loose with fantasy cliché, but that's a pretty difficult question to answer, and it's a lot more nuanced than I'm used to with the writing/plotting in general. I don't think they'd have put this much effort into the themes of remorse, redemption and falls from grace if we were just going to end up with the Lich King loot piñata at the end of it all. Particularly with the amount of development we've seen on both sides of the conflict this time.

Re:Cheese runner

[Anonymous Coward]

My world is plenty gray, dammit. That's why I play games, and read fantasy. So why couldn't Blizzard make two new classes, a Deathknight and a souped-up Paladin? Why the forced emphasis on evil? I don't like it. It makes the game less attractive to me. But then, I'm probably the only one.

I'm not entirely sure that play-acting an evil character has no moral effects, by the way. No, it's not going to make Johnny a mass-murderer. It's just another tiny drip in the cultural bucket o'sh*t. Hmm...how about a fantasy game based on Abu Ghraib? Get in some torture and sex.

Re:Cheese runner

[DrVomact]

Uh forgot to log in. It's me, myself. Not trying to hide.

Re:Cheese runner

[DrVomact]

I wonder why Blizzard only gives us this one option. Why didn't they introduce two new classes—the evil Deathknight and some souped up Paladin? Or just about anything that's not a prep course for working at Abu Ghraib.

Re:Cheese runner

[adavies42]

weave cower's in fear at the sight of jamie

OMG, what have I just witnessed!?

apostrophe abuse

Re:Cheese runner

[adavies42]

yeah, that's pretty much what a friend of mine said. i think his words were something along the lines of "i'm playing syria to the kirin tor's cia in an extraordinary rendition scenario".

Re:Cheese runner

[rwillard]

It was a bit more complex than that.

Let's shift the analogy here a little; let's say you're a cast member in one of the Aliens movies. You know how the little buggers work, and you just saw one of them implant a crewmember.

You know that person is dead. Toast. All that you can do at this point is protect the rest of the crew by eliminating the parasite before it can spread.

Which is more moral; throwing the crewmember out an airlock, or letting the parasite hatch and probably kill you and the rest of the crew... leaving the crewmember dead anyway?

Re:Cheese runner

[Killjoy_NL]

I LOVED those quests, I was only annoyed when I couldn't choose to still work for the Lich King, it's job discrimination I tell ya :D

Re:Cheese runner

[profplump]

Couldn't you just as easily say that playing an email character has positive moral effects by teaching the player to empathize with his virtual victims? Particularly in a setting like the one presented, where the character wants to stop doing bad things. Such a scenario could teach little Johnny that there are both external and moral consequences for his actions.

Culture, including video games, are supposed to teach us not just about happy things but also about terrible things; if you replaced "video games" with "classic opera" I doubt anyone would take you seriously if you suggested that the violence and "evil" characters are detrimental to society.

Re:Cheese runner

[troc]

That's no good - you can't jump straight to a 3 digit UID without going through many iterations of slightly lower 5 digit ones, a few 4 digit ones and the final "yeah but lots of us were there when it was a private bloggy thing and just took a while to register" moan :)

It's like Godwin's law only with fewer Nazis, zero relevance to anything sensible and conjures up images of nerds and epeens which I don't need before my first daily coffee. But which I now have. Dammit.

"My EYES, they burn from the inside!"

I get the feeling I'm ranting today for no real reason whatsoever. Help me!

Re:Cheese runner

[Anonymous Coward]

It reminds me of when the Blood Elves were introduced. I was thrilled when I clicked on one of the NPC's of this debased, twisted race and had him greet me with "Stay the course"!

Re:Cheese runner

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess your mom was exposed to PCBs.

Re:Cheese runner

[Kagura]

yeah but lots of us were there when it was a private blah de blah de blah"

"Eldest, that's what I am... Enry remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

Re:Cheese runner

[mfh]

And I have a lower UID than you do!

"There is always a lower UID." - Some guy on a Star Wars movie.

Re:Cheese runner

[Coleco]

Hah!

Re:Cheese runner

[agrounds]

The starter quests were designed that way to really make you uncomfortable so that you would understand why your character would choose to walk away from all of that power and join the weaker alliance/horde. If they didn't do this, people would lament that there was no backstory to explain why their Death Knight was suddenly running amok and hanging out with the very people they used to kill with great relish just because it was Monday night and Heros was a rerun.

My chief lamentation is that Blizzard should have implemented a heroic healing class to complement. Not only would it have made the 60-70 grind in Outland a little more pleasant for instancing and grouping, but it would have given a boost to the dwindling ranks of available healers in the game. We didn't need another tank class. We needed a healing class that has enough offensive capability and PVP survival that they would be damned fun to play without changing specs away from raid healing.

Re:Cheese runner

[Snaller]

Or you could engage your brain and go do something else and return to this later.

Re:Cheese runner

[Jimmy Avalanche]

There are indeed quite a few brutal things you "get" to do in Wrath. I like it!

In addition to the ones above, you kill loyal soldiers of the Forsaken who have been captured by the Scarlet Onslaught, while they are still in their cages - simply because they let themselves get captured; witness the suicide-off-a-cliff by an Onslaught high priest; torture an Onslaught torturer for information (sort of like the torture-rod chapters of the awful book Wizard's First Rule) before killing him. And this is all from one quest hub.

You also get to fight side by side with your future self, fending off time-travelling drakonids attacking an hourglass. Wait, is this an episode of The Twilight Zone?

My Review

[whisper_jeff]

Here's my mini review: Wrath of the Lich King is superb. It isn't perfect (but nothing is) but it does many things exceptionally well. First and foremost among them is that the player's character actually does change the world. From minor things like helping an outpost get a flightmaster to dealing with major political intrigue with the Forsaken, the player's character has a notable impact on the structure of the world. While the game has it's fair share of "Kill 20 grapplegromets", the addition of the world-changing quest chains is wonderful. Also, each zone has at least one notable story arc of quests that really pulls the character into the lore of the world. Wrath of the Lich King's biggest success, among many things that it does well, is it's character immersion. I give Wrath a 9.5/10.

Re:My Review

[xactoguy]

Replying to this to cancel my mod. And yes, I agree with your mini review from what of seen of WoTLK

Re:My review

[Kukui23]

Not me... still on the original.

Re:My Review

[CFBMoo1]

At first I like how it changed the world with the phasing technology. Then I encountered a very glaring problem.

Person A has a quest later in a quest chain to kill Dude X.

Nobody wants to help Person A except a few guildies who haven't even started the chain. Persons B and C want to help A kill X but because of the phasing technology X isn't visible to them and Person A vanishes when entering the area where X is and all they see are mobs from the start of the quest chain.

Getting help to do some group quests has just got a lot more difficult in World of Warcraft for quest chains that involve their phasing technology. Some of these quests require 5 people to complete and all 5 need to be on this step sometimes. You can't just get a few other guys to help you who will do it later.

Re:My Review

[whisper_jeff]

Unless I'm mistaken, none of the quests in the early stages of those quests are group quests - they can all be completed solo.

Re:My Review

[Austerity Empowers]

Your review is a little more like a review than the blatant marketing release that slashdot is passing off as a review. At least you have an opinion and acknowledge weaknesses, although I think there are still some big problems in WoW that WoTLK doesn't deal with or contributes further to.

I haven't managed to spend more than 1hr in WoTLK (after having quit WoW for a year). WoW may no longer have a hold on me... but I'm not that impressed. There is a substantial amount of blatant stupidity:

- That flying mount you saved up for (worse, if you bought an epic) - can't use it until 77 or so. Bad call. Opportunity to up the ante here: add flight combat based on class! That would also keep people from short circuiting quests, and be awesome.

- Not a mage? Can't get to Dalaran until 74 (or so, I haven't done it yet). That's right, a major feature cut out for you while you grind. This really serves just to highlight the grind, not remove it.

- More dailies...ugh

- At least as far as tailoring is concerned, in TBC I could at least earn decent epic items without having to set foot in a raid. Thus far, I have not seen it in WoTLK. Given that it's a virtual guarantee I will disable my account as soon as I've done the last 5 man (or maybe before if I can't get my friends to come back) this annoys me. One thing I do like is entering northrend with a lot of epics and slaughtering for a while, that's probably the only reason I really bought the expansion: to use the gear I farmed last time.

- Pretty much the minute logged in I was beat with the old problems that caused my entire guild to quit: "Heroic Nexus LF2M, need tank and 1dps (at least 1300DPS!)". Now I happen to have a tank, a healer and a mage, all were well enough geared for heroics in TBC... but I remember this all too well. Damage meters, people not understanding there are multiple ways to play the game, people unwilling to enter a dungeon that they don't outgear (because they don't understand subtlety)...this basically puts you in a place where you only want to play with friends, and you are at the mercy of trying to get 5 adults across 4 timezones, with wives and kids, to block out 1,2,3 hours to do a dungeon.

To try and grow a guild of like minded people is entirely more frustrating: dungeons come in 5, 10 and 25 and need to be approached with the maximum allowable team (assuming you don't outgear them), as a group with approximately equal gear within what someone defines as reason. The result is a lot of people are left off and get bored with the game. You can't grow a guild of responsible adults, because you can't play the game, have fun, and be responsible at the same time.

Nothing in WoTLK addresses the elitist mentality the game has been designed for. The belief that only the hardcore deserve to be included in higher end dungeons and raids. The best you can do is join a large casual guild, put up with (and play) the politics, and go as far as a mob mentality will allow (usually only 1 or 2 tiers). Plus deal with people who aren't very smart and don't understand the game, but who are what you have to work with. This means damage meters, pvp specs in raids, weird and self-nerfing specs, people fighting over gear, etc.

The game jumped the shark when they lowered group-size cap on Scholo/Blackrock Spire/etc. It was totally devoured in TBC when they started designing dungeons to require very specific group/raid structures similar to EQs "holy trinity" concept (tank, slower,healer). When it was the casual alternative to EQ, it was awesome.

So on the whole, WoTLK deserves 6/10, mostly on account of being pretty, adding new content, and a few other details covered above. It doesn't fix the game it's based on, or change WoW or MMOGs in general. It's just another expansion.

Re:My Review

[MetalPhalanx]

Really? I obviously haven't covered all of WotLK yet, but I've made it to 80 and spent a fair bit of time in Icecrown where they make the most use of the phasing and so far haven't ran into any quest chains that were not soloable.

Give me an example please... That way I can make sure my guild can run it in "sets" to avoid this problem.

Re:My review

[genner]

If you buy it, your head will swell to seven times its normal size. Your girlfriend will leave you and shack up with a rottweiler. The rottweiler will bite you in your swollen head, which will burst, showing your WOW machine with cursed pustulent ichor. The ensuing fire will kill you, the dog, your ex-girlfriend, and an entire troop of golden haired girl scouts trying to sell you cookies. Also, your corpse will posthumously contract cancer of the ass.

Add yet, even knowing this, every last single solitary WOW player on the face of the planet earth has already bought it.

But will I make it to 80 before that happens?

Re:My Review

[Anonymous Coward]

All of the issues (scheduling, gear checks, etc) are inherent to MMOs. If you can't handle them; there are plenty of games that don't have them (this isn't snarky; these things just come with the territory.)

Everything else has been made better from Burning Crusade with this patch; the achievement system has given new life to all the old Lv 60 instances with people now running them all the time for the various achievements.

If you don't like WoW or you've moved in, this expansion probably won't do anything fundamentally different enough to bring you back. But if you still enjoy playing the game, it's a definite improvement on everything that has come before.

Re:My Review

[SydShamino]

I haven't managed to spend more than 1hr in WoTLK

Unfortunately this is obvious from your review.

- That flying mount you saved up for (worse, if you bought an epic) - can't use it until 77 or so. Bad call.

It actually helps when exploring the initial content. The world seems so much bigger at first. Note: quests hubs not only send you on to the next when you're done, but they give you a free flight! Note: I gained access to my flying mount after completing three zones. Not bad, really.

add flight combat based on class! That would also keep people from short circuiting quests, and be awesome.

Good idea for the per-class thing, but they DID add flying combat - lots of it! Many, many quests allow for flying combat, including some dailies. (Hence, my first suspicion that your one hour is inadequate to give the expansion a review.)

- Not a mage? Can't get to Dalaran until 74 (or so, I haven't done it yet). That's right, a major feature cut out for you while you grind. This really serves just to highlight the grind, not remove it.

My paladin got to Dalaran at 71. My wife's shaman bound there at 56. This limitation is non-existent thanks to two (or four) transportation methods:
1. Mage can port you there at any level.
2. Warlock can summon you there at any level.
(3. Anyone of similar level can queue you for a battleground from there; when you leave the battleground you'll be there.)
(4. If you die on another continent, you can travel there and spirit rez in town.)

There is no one who wants to be in Dalaran of any level who isn't there yet, if they've put in effort into it at all.

- More dailies...ugh

But much more variety in the dailies. What do you expect? Would you prefer the game before there were dailies? You don't have to do them. For several factions, they've included both dailies and the ability to grind faction in dungeons. Even better, you pick the faction you want to grind (by wearing the appropriate tabard), so you can do a different dungeon every day and grind the same faction, or just run your favorite dungeon and grind all the factions out.

...tailoring...

I don't have it; I don't use it; I can't comment. =p

Pretty much the minute logged in I was beat with the old problems that caused my entire guild to quit: "Heroic Nexus LF2M, need tank and 1dps (at least 1300DPS!)".

To be fair, as a pure tank I put out more than 1300 DPS. That's a pretty small number. There's no way any competent DPS player should be in a heroic instance with stats that low.

people unwilling to enter a dungeon that they don't outgear

There are also people who try to enter dungeons they undergear and expect to be carried through. There is supposed to be a minimum needed to run some places; otherwise people would just skip the intermediate steps and run the final instance, then call the whole expansion done.

you are at the mercy of trying to get 5 adults across 4 timezones, with wives and kids, to block out 1,2,3 hours to do a dungeon.

They've reduced the complexity, and greatly increased the variety, of the dungeons. The longest I've run is 45 minutes. Blizzard's goal is one hour.

Nothing in WoTLK addresses the elitist mentality the game has been designed for. The belief that only the hardcore deserve to be included in higher end dungeons and raids.

Except you can run the same raid zones in either 10- or 25-man versions, so you in your small guild can see all of the expansion content. (The 25-man gear is slightly better, yeah, but what do you expect? Do you think Blizzard wants all those 25-man players to get bored and leave?)

It was totally devoured in TBC w

Re:My Review

[DigitalSorceress]

For the most part, the quest lines are designed to be soloed. I had a tough time with some of it because I multi-box (run three accounts on three seperate computers) now that I have completed that chain on my three mains, I can't use any of them to "boost" any of my secondaries.... will have to do it again. Still, since the quest lines were designed to be soloable, I'll do okay.

However, where the phasing can be a little annoying is that even if all three of my toons are on the same phase, the phase transition is a little buggy and it almost always breaks "/follow" which means I have to stop and manually move my followers forward till my main appears then re-follow. In one zone, the shapes of the phases and the number of layers mean effectively, /follow doesn't work for me... have to cross the area with each toon independantly.

Not to mention that the new "vehicle" mechanic totally breaks /follow too.

Still, I've enjoyed the expansion thus far.

Re:My Review

[Fross]

Appreciate your thoughts, thought I'd add my review too.

WotLK doesn't really do anything new. All the "new" things in the original review are tweaks/combinations of previous things. I point people in particular to AQ40/old Naxx bosses, for instance.

The storytelling questing is pretty good, but IMHO not a patch on the original Onyxia chain or anything like that. TBC had almost no decent "storytelling" questing, the original WoW did. A lot of people sadly missed out on the whole BRD/BRS/MC/BWL chain around Nefarian and Onyxia, for instance, because they just powered to 58 and went to outland.

The graphics are better, yes. There is definite Blizzard polish, and I have to say in the first two hours I was thinking "Wow, it's good to be back", referring to being able to explore new content and such. However, the graphics cannot compete with anything released in the last couple of years. Good for WoW, definitely, but that makes it good for 2003.

Overall though, the game is just more of the same. The additions tweak it a bit but it really is very, very much the same thing. Some people will love that. I.... well, I played it for about 10 hours over 3 days, then went back to Warhammer. Considering I played WoW almost religiously until a few months ago, I fully expected to be dragged back and amazed at the new stuff.

It's not amazing, it's slightly better, but it's definitely treading the exact same ground. I give it 7/10, while I'm off to play a world that really DOES mold around the players (well, at least when it doesn't crash when sieging a capital city, that is...)

Re:My Review

[big_groo]

I'm *glad* your multiboxing doesn't work. I think multiboxing should be banned. Totally unfair when it comes to PVP. Never mind when someone like http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=14611&pageNo=1 this enters your zone, you don't stand a chance at questing anywhere near him(her). Think of it like the proverbial 'Bull in a China shop'. (He's on Aegwyn, incidentally...)

I don't care what argument you use, you're not in control of each of your characters. Proof? Your own words:
...it almost always breaks "/follow" which means I have to stop and manually move my followers forward till my main appears then re-follow.

The argument for allowing multi-boxing has always been 'well, the players are in control of all the characters'. No they're not. Do you manually cast each spell (if you're a caster) on each toon set to '/follow'? No. You don't. All spells are cast from the main.

So, I can't say I'm disappointed that you're having problems with your multi-box setup. I also understand that this is the way you enjoy the game, but please understand that it takes the enjoyment *out* of the game for many others.

Bliz won't do anything about it as they're happily collecting revenue from each account.

Re:My Review

[Jherico]

That flying mount you saved up for (worse, if you bought an epic) - can't use it until 77 or so. Bad call.

I think this decision is used to good effect to keep people from skipping large sections of the content.

Not a mage? Can't get to Dalaran until 74 (or so, I haven't done it yet).

You can easily get to Dalaran by knowing a mage or knowing someone who knows a mage and so on. Anyone in Dalaran can easily bring anyone else in the same level range to Dalaran by queuing them for a battleground, which the other person then goes into and when they exit, poof they're in Dalaran. Regardless, the design intent is to make sure people don't simply skip all the content and go straight to the fabulous magical city. On the other hand its not that hard for people who are determined.

More dailies...ugh

You can level to 80 and also hit exalted with every reputation in the game without ever doing a daily quest.

At least as far as tailoring is concerned, in TBC I could at least earn decent epic items without having to set foot in a raid

Every profession / armor type has a corresponding level 80 blue bind on equip set of items which are suitable both for doing endgame dungeons (including heroics if you've got enough skill) and starting PVP. The tailoring version is called frostsavage.

Nothing in WoTLK addresses the elitist mentality the game has been designed for.

You've gone completely off the rails here. EVERYTHING in WotLK is desgined to serve the needs of the many, not the needs of the few. The elite hardcore players are already complaining that compared with BC this game is far too easy. Most hardcore players I know skipped normal 80 dungeons and went straight to heroics. On the other hand my parents in law are quite happily two thirds of their way to 80.

What you need, sir, is to go buy a copy of 'Elder Scrolls: Oblivion' and leave the rest of us to play in peace.

Re:My Review

[Austerity Empowers]

- That flying mount you saved up for (worse, if you bought an epic) - can't use it until 77 or so. Bad call.

It actually helps when exploring the initial content. The world seems so much bigger at first.

I would rather have my flying mount so that I can get around fast and not have to pay the excessive bird path costs (1G just from the starting city to one 2 hops over!). I'm not going to spend hours farming and doing dailies, I have other things to do. I spent lots of gold on that mount, I want to use it.

add flight combat based on class! That would also keep people from short circuiting quests, and be awesome.

Good idea for the per-class thing, but they DID add flying combat - lots of it! Many, many quests allow for flying combat, including some dailies. (Hence, my first suspicion that your one hour is inadequate to give the expansion a review.)

Obviously, I wouldn't know at level 70.6. But I note a lack of agro mobs above my head. If they added flight combat as I'm thinking of (i.e. not "bombing run" missions from TBC, which were fun, but something more freeform), I'd think they'd want to do it right off.

- Not a mage? Can't get to Dalaran until 74 (or so, I haven't done it yet). That's right, a major feature cut out for you while you grind. This really serves just to highlight the grind, not remove it.

My paladin got to Dalaran at 71. My wife's shaman bound there at 56. This limitation is non-existent thanks to two (or four) transportation methods:
1. Mage can port you there at any level.
2. Warlock can summon you there at any level.
(3. Anyone of similar level can queue you for a battleground from there; when you leave the battleground you'll be there.)
(4. If you die on another continent, you can travel there and spirit rez in town.)

There is no one who wants to be in Dalaran of any level who isn't there yet, if they've put in effort into it at all.

I am aware of the first two options of course, and one of my characters is a mage, but I ought to be able to go straight to the city and go right in. I won't know for a while, but in TBC there were resources available there I needed as early as I could get them.

- More dailies...ugh

But much more variety in the dailies. What do you expect? Would you prefer the game before there were dailies? You don't have to do them. For several factions, they've included both dailies and the ability to grind faction in dungeons. Even better, you pick the faction you want to grind (by wearing the appropriate tabard), so you can do a different dungeon every day and grind the same faction, or just run your favorite dungeon and grind all the factions out.

The review suggests blizzard went out of its way to remove grinds? Dailies are grinds, rep running is a grind. All of it is designed to do one thing: force you to do content many more times than your patience would otherwise allow. I don't mind rerunning instances for friends, but as far as I'm concerned I'm done with an instance after having cleared it 4-5 times.

Pretty much the minute logged in I was beat with the old problems that caused my entire guild to quit: "Heroic Nexus LF2M, need tank and 1dps (at least 1300DPS!)".

To be fair, as a pure tank I put out more than 1300 DPS. That's a pretty small number. There's no way any competent DPS player should be in a heroic instance with stats that low.

people unwilling to enter a dungeon that they don't outgear

There are also people who try to enter dungeons they undergear and expect to be carried through. There is supposed to be a minimum needed to run some places; otherwise people would just skip the intermediate steps and run the final instance, then call the whole expansion done.

It may be, I don't keep damage meters installed and I'm sure at 70 my dps isn't representative of what it w

Re:My Review

[garylian]

I played WoW from closed beta through the first 9 months of launch, and then the wife and I hit level cap, and promptly got bored out of our skulls with the game. After a 3yr hiatus from the game while we played EQ2 and had a lot more fun, we decided to give WoW another try. (We stalled out in EQ2 during the pregnancy and birth of our 2nd child, and lost the interest in playing for a while.) We've been playing for about 4 months now.

I have a 59 shaman, a 38 rogue that duos with the wife's druid of the same level, and a bunch of other toons floating around, plus the obligitory 58 DK. And while I am having fun, it's not all that.

You are spot on about grouping and trying to find like-minded players. There is no reason to group at all, and a high level toon can run you through the "really should run through for gear" instances of DM, Gnomer, and SM. And after those 3 instances done by one lvl 70 mage and whatever toons tagged along, it was solo-city. Sure, I tagged along with said mage through ZF when he was gathering cloth for his DK's turn-ins pre-launch, but that would have been the first instance I would have run with a group, otherwise.

The fact that toons can power-level so easily is absolutely destroying the fabric of the game. You don't need to form a guild relationship. Just pay some mage to run you through the instances, and you are geared through 60 for the most part. Hit Outlands, and you will have all new gear before you hit 62. There's a reason my wife always says "WoW is MMO For Dummies".

And with the new PvP zone, things are really going to deteriorate quickly. The surest way to create a l33t attitude is to allow PvP like this. Blizzard uses PvP as the dangling carrot to keep people playing while they churn out expansions at a horrifically slow rate. 27 hours for the first person to go fromj 70 to 80? Really? We had to wait over a year and a half for most people to hit the new level cap in a week?

I've said for a while that the only thing that will knock WoW from the top of the heap is Blizzard. It looks like they will succeed, unless they start to make progression mean something.

Re:My Review

[irix]

The storytelling questing is pretty good, but IMHO not a patch on the original Onyxia chain or anything like that.

Are you sure you played WoTLK? There is some fantastic storytelling questlines in this expansion, on par with and better than such things as getting keyed for Onyxia back in the day, and certainly much more of it than there was in the original game and TBC.

Of course it is more of the same - it is an expansion, not an entirely new game. However what they've implemented is really top notch and generally a step above what the game had to offer before.

Also, it is difficult to judge an expansion before it is completed. With at least 3 content patches expected in this expansion I'm hopeful that the endgame and raiding game is going to get some of the same focus that has made the leveling process so fantastic.

Re:My Review

[Krojack]

Sounds like you want everything handed to you up front.

- That flying mount you saved up for (worse, if you bought an epic) - can't use it until 77 or so. Bad call.

Heaven forbid you have to work your way from zone to zone again. Having a flying mount from the start would really take away from exploring the new zone. I believe it's given (at a cost) to you at level 77 because whats when most people are getting to Storm Peaks and Icecrown zones which suck if you can't fly.

- Not a mage? Can't get to Dalaran until 74 (or so, I haven't done it yet). That's right, a major feature cut out for you while you grind. This really serves just to highlight the grind, not remove it.

Bummer... Just ask a mage to queue you up to a BG while he's in Dalaran or have a level 74 mage port you there if you don't want to work for it yourself. Hope you tip at least.

- More dailies...ugh

Then don't do them? It's a nice way to make some extra money for those that don't get the upper hand on the Auction House.

Re:My Review

[Austerity Empowers]

I don't think it's appropriate to compare WAR to WoW. Warhammer is a great RvR game, with a PvE thing tacked on that has some limited value that serves RvR. I hope they don't attempt to "fix" PvE to be more like WoW, because I'm convinced they'll hurt RvR in doing it.

World of Warcraft is a PvE game with a lousy RvR/PvP tacked on. They have hurt PvE numerous times in order to make RvR work, but RvR there is fundamentally flawed. Arena more or less was the icing on an already poorly baked cake. They'd have done better to remove the alliance/horde system and leave pvp as a curiosity, forming opposing teams more or less randomly.

In terms of a dynamic world, Warhammer is dynamic only in terms of RvR. Much like any other mmog, the PvE content is not dynamic at all. I'm not even sure that's such an important feature, either. It gets a lot of press mileage but to do it right requires a lot more work than we probably want to pay for.

Both games I think are at the same level of "technology", and both have some problems. It may be fair to say WAR's problems are less systemic and depressing.

Re:My Review

[bonch]

This is totally opposite from my experience with the expansion. It feels exactly like 10 more levels of the same game that Burning Crusade was.

Your character doesn't affect the world at all. I really don't get what you're referring to about having a "notable impact on the world." About the best you can do is take Wintergrasp for a cheesy Northrend buff that lets you collect "Stone Keeper Shards" from bosses in dungeons. That's it.

People are hitting level 80 and finding out that there's nothing to do but exactly what they did before--stand around battlemasters in a queue or mindlessly grind a dungeon over and over. Furthermore, the content is ridiculously easy. The dungeons are the blandest and shortest Blizzard has ever put out, and the quests are barely challenging.

If you are sick and tired of "Kill X of Y and return to me" being considered great RPG design, you'll be disappointed in WotLK because it's the same boring thing of the last four years. Classes have been made more redundant so that there's no specific reason to use a particular raid layout. Nice intentions, but as a result, the game feels really bland and generic. There's not even a gold grind at the end for some new mount ability to work toward--just pay 1000 gold at level 77, and you can fly again. Easy. And boring.

Re:My Review

[bonch]

You can easily get to Dalaran by knowing a mage or knowing someone who knows a mage and so on.

Ignoring the fact, of course, that mages have been charging 20-50 gold per port.

You can level to 80 and also hit exalted with every reputation in the game without ever doing a daily quest.

You'll be broke and will have to mindlessly grind dungeons for rep instead. You left that part out, I see.

It's a disappointing expansion.

Re:My Review

[bonch]

Are you sure you played WoTLK? There is some fantastic storytelling questlines in this expansion, on par with and better than such things as getting keyed for Onyxia back in the day, and certainly much more of it than there was in the original game and TBC.

Too bad it's buried under the avalanche of "We're a helpless tribe of tuskarr/taunka, collect feathers/horns/kill elementals/scout this location and return to me."

Re:My Review

[abe ferlman]

Your argument only works if /follow itself is a banned form of automation, which it is not.

Re:My Review

[Fross]

I would rate Wow's PvE as excellent, and PvP as poor. For Warhammer, the PvE as average, the PvP as excellent.

The Warhammer PvE content can be somewhat dynamic, pushing a long chain of public quests toward the end gets a lot of attention and more people joining in, and changes the monster population of certain areas, though it's only for a matter of minutes while it's completed. Even that is a bonus in itself, WoW doesn't seem to have anything that has that effect.

The PvE in Warhammer is actually not bad. If they had more instances at low levels and directed the player toward them (in the way say that WoW directs players to Deadmines. Mount Gunbad is a good equivalent, but the nudges towards it are vague. The Sacellum gets almost no press at all), and also benefitted from the city "hubs" that WoW introduces earlier on, it would be a big improvement. How to do that without disrupting RvR is an issue though :)

I am interested to see what happens in WAR over the next 6 months, if the model has longevity. WoW's PvE one simply has massive longevity because there is so much of it. The PvP is stagnant with the same 4 (5?) battlegrounds throughout the entire game. Arena is too smale a scale to matter.

Re:My Review

[Nefarious Wheel]

...Also, each zone has at least one notable story arc of quests that really pulls the character into the lore of the world.

Aye. Nothing quite like being pelted with fruit as you tour Orgrimmar on your freshly-minted Death Knight, kneeling in front of Thrall and being told "You have just seconds to live". That one cost me a keyboard.

Re:My Review

[MBGMorden]

I qualify, but heroics were always out of the reach for my guild (two druids, a mage, a fury warrior and a warlock).

Why wouldn't that group work for a heroic? Druid healers worked fine in instances - I healed a ton of them on mine. Mage and or warlock are both good DPS, as are the furry warrior. For tanking, you had two tank capable classes. I'm sure by your explicit stating of "Fury warrior" that the warrior was unwilling to do this, and that might have been the case with the druids too, but if so that's just a matter of nobody being willing to step up and perform a needed duty.

Re:My Review

[bteeter]

I'm a mage and do ports for free. Most mages will do a port for 3g or less. I've never been charged more than that on any of my 10+ alts of various levels in almost 2 years of playing. The expansion didn't change the rate for ports at all.

Re:My Review

[whisper_jeff]

I really don't get what you're referring to about having a "notable impact on the world."

Complete your Dragonblight quests and you'll get a sense of it. Also, a chunk of Icecrown quests literally changes the landscape.

Re:My Review

[Metaphorically]

Holy shit! 50g for a port? I'm seriously undercharging. I do it for tips - got 9G once tho.

Re:My Review

[AlexMax2742]

Did they ever fix the fact that all anybody ever did was queue up for scenarios? In other words, do people actually bother to defend in RvR?

Re:My Review

[tbannist]

The definition of "soloable" changes depending on what character class you're playing.

For example, the "March of the Giants" is very difficult for melee characters to solo because of the excessive Aura and magic damage on top of punishing physical damage.

While in most 3 person quests, like "Ursoc the Bear God" and "Reclusive Runemaster" the creatures you're supposed to kill are immune to snares and roots, and thus can't be solo'd by most non-tanking classes (might be possible for warlocks and hunters).

Re:My Review

[Poltras]

Although I'm mostly against multi-boxing, you really have to sharpen your arguments and gather at least some insights. Don't hate something you can't understand. Check the forums, or google it. Look at how they do it, and why it's not illegal. You'll learn a lot about the game itself along the path.

Once you've mastered the way, learn how to destroy it. I hate multiboxers, but I've learnt to beat the crap out of them easily. The timing is still hard for me, though, and as such I mostly run away from them when I got the chance.

Re:My Review

[Anarke_Incarnate]

QQ, I don't have an "I win" button. I can't be bothered to play a game, so I complain.

Stop paying, don't play, lower queue times for the next guy

Re:My Review

[SydShamino]

You can level to 80 and also hit exalted with every reputation in the game without ever doing a daily quest.

Technically, I don't think this is true. You cannot reach exalted with the Tuskar faction without running their dailies. I don't think the tabard grind works for them. On the other hand, it only takes 7-9 total days to reach exalted after doing all the other quests.

Re:My Review

[bugnuts]

Stop paying, don't play, lower queue times for the next guy

... and most importantly, STFU after you quit. The players don't care why you quit or how stupid you think we are because we're still enjoying what you don't.

It's amazing how many try to convince the other foxes to cut off their tails, when only they are unable to enjoy it any longer.

Re:My Review

[Fozzyuw]

My favorite thing? THE ARMOUR ACTUALLY MATCHES! (and looks cool to boot!). This is dramatically prevalent as a Death Knight, who's first big shoulder quest reward from Outlands is a bright green thing. Entering Northrend, you look like a clown. By the time you finish one of the starting zones, you'll actually look something tough again.

I like it.

Re:My Review

[Loopy1492]

Yeah. It would be preferable to do the dailies for the Tuskarr. (can't wait for my penguin!)

Re:My Review

[Starayo]

Got a point there, I soloed all of those, but I'm a tanking and DPS specced death knight, and I wore my tanking gear and spammed my self-healing strike...

Re:My Review

[JohnnySm0ke]

How do you even have the balls write such an in-depth slam of a game you "haven't managed to spend more than 1hr in" ... "after having quit WoW for a year"? You might try actually playing the expansion, then maybe come back and post your opinion.

Re:My Review

[_bug_]

You can level to 80 and also hit exalted with every reputation in the game without ever doing a daily quest.

How, sir, can you get exalted with the Sons of Hodir without doing dailies? They have no tabard. The only wait to rep grind is to do dailies. And tanks especially MUST grind out exalted with Sons of Hodir or they lose out on some tank enchantments.

Re:My Review

[H310iSe]

I haven't done any dungeons yet but the the better quests are really terrific. I wish I wasn't in a hurry to catch up to my friends (who are already at 80) and could spend more time with the storylines, I read about 1/3rd of the quests really closely and they're all solid at the least.

the end of the Fria (sp?) quest line in Un Goro v2.0 was amazing. the dk quests were superb. the soloability of quests is welcome, but yes, I think they were a little too easy, I found myself more worried about having 0 downtime then any actual fear for my life.

So I kind of agree and kind of disagree with the op

Re:My Review

[Jherico]

Ignoring the fact, of course, that mages have been charging 20-50 gold per port.

A lot of your complaints boil down to 'I have no friends in the game to work with or help me out'. I got into Dalaran about an hour into playing LK, completely for free, mostly because I'm part of a very large Guild that is in turn part of a larger alliance of about a half dozen other guilds all of whom have membership numbers in the hundreds. By and large we all help each other out and even if I don't know someone personally, if I see that they're a member of one of the allied guilds I can typically rely on being able to group with them and having them be able to play adequately and not be an asshole. That's because we all help each other learn to play adequately and if you're an asshole you either stop being one or you get kicked out (its pretty much the ONLY way to get kicked out).

You'll be broke and will have to mindlessly grind dungeons for rep instead.

Leveling to 80 will easily gain you over 3k gold even if you never do a daily, so you won't be broke. As for rep, seriously, what the hell? You complain about dailies and you complain about dungeons. Apparently you want to hit exalted with factions without doing anything at all. I take it back. You don't need to play Oblivion. You need to play Progress Quest or find a pretty screensaver.

Re:My Review

[Anonymous Coward]

You really haven't played WotLK have you?

All of the current endgame could be run by a group of monkeys. The game is more fun and less tedious at the moment. You can get gear from any crafter (it's all BoE now) that comes remarkably close to the endgame stuff that exists now.

And you clearly never bothered to look for a better guild. Probably because you were so terrible none would take you.

Re:My Review

[Gilmoure]

If you've never played WoW, can you start with this version or do you have to purchase the earlier ones?

Re:My Review

[MetalPhalanx]

To clarify, I meant soloable in "phased" areas, not in the expansion as a whole.

Re:My Review

[Anonymous Coward]

Initially I thought the same (and also about Netherwing), but they both have the ability to loot items off the ground to turn in for rep. So, technically it's true you don't have to do dailies to hit exalted with them.

The Kalu'ak and Frostborn you will have to do dailies to reach exalted with, though.

Re:My Review

[AK Marc]

The argument for allowing multi-boxing has always been 'well, the players are in control of all the characters'. No they're not. Do you manually cast each spell (if you're a caster) on each toon set to '/follow'? No. You don't. All spells are cast from the main.

I dual box. I have a tank and a healer, and I level them together because that's easier than leveling them alone. I don't instance that way. I don't PvP that way. Just quests and grinds. I manually cast /follow from the following character. I manually cast all spells for the follower from the other computer. I have two keyboards and two mice on the table in front of me, and I generally use the "main" most, but do use the second one for any actions I wish for them to take. Also, my wife will play with me. She likes instances and nothing else. But, to get gear and level more easily, you can't just spend all your time running instances over and over, so we do some questing. She'll be sitting at her computer on the other side of the room. She'll set to follow. She'll look up at sounds of combat or if I shout "loot" or "turn in" and things that break /follow piss both of us off. We aren't dual boxing, we are just going to the same place.

I also understand that this is the way you enjoy the game, but please understand that it takes the enjoyment *out* of the game for many others.

I've heard that. But what enjoyment do you lose if one hunter kills a mob near you, loots it, and walks off, compared to a tank/healer pair that does the same thing? Does it make you mad that they are getting half experience for all kills (but full exp for turn-ins)? If so, why would that piss you off? How about if you meet someone that joins you in an instance, and the healer drops out, they mention they have a healer they multi-boxed to 80, does it make you happy that you don't have to wait to find another, or does it make you mad that you have to play with one of those evil people that have multi-boxed?

Re:My Review

[Anonymous Coward]

My review - and I haven't even played it:

If you're at the level cap and you're still paying the monthly fee, you'll buy it. If not, probably not.

Discuss.

Re:My Review

[k_187]

You'll need the base game and both expansions to see the stuff talked about in this review. But unless you spend all day in front of your keyboard (or play as a blood elf or draenei), you can always buy the base game, get to lv. 55 or so, then get the burning crusade, level to 68 or so, then get lich king. You won't be able to go to the new areas, but that's not absolutely necessary when you're level 7.

Re:My Review

[Gilmoure]

Man, sounds like a lot of work and time. Just don't think I'm cut out for long term games like this. I wonder what the demographics are for WoW. Also, have they hit market saturation or are new players still coming into it? If it's going to be weeks or months before you can even play the latest stuff, not sure what the draw would be.

Re:My Review

[ArsonSmith]

I just noticed this last night as I went back to a town to further some quest chains. All the NPCs were rearranged in ways I remember doing a few weeks ago during some quests. (I'm talk the Leaper, named abomination, and some mage/lock/magic user chick) that were bad guys that I recruited in a quest chain. They were no longer in their bad guy location and were now part of the town I was recruiting them too.

I really started to wonder how this was done. Does everyone have a different view on the world depending on how their quests are done?

Re:My Review

[lgw]

What a loser - he actually expects a game to be fun, not work! Why, he probably has an actual job, instead of living in his mother's basement - if he's going to waste his time on stuff like that, he just shouldn't play WoW at all!

I guess I actually agree with this sentiment, which is why I stopped playing.

I'd *love* an MMO which had non-grind, non-raid endgame content, though. I'd play that.

Re:My Review

[bonch]

That's not affecting the world. It's just progressing through phased static content, another form of AoC's instancing.

When I think of affecting the world, I think of something dynamic and non-scripted, such as the battle over Wintergrasp which could go either way based on the players.

Re:My Review

[bonch]

A lot of your complaints boil down to 'I have no friends in the game to work with or help me out'. I got into Dalaran about an hour into playing LK, completely for free, mostly because I'm part of a very large Guild that is in turn part of a larger alliance of about a half dozen other guilds all of whom have membership numbers in the hundreds.

Your response to not having access to Dalaran was "know a mage." I responded that the majority of mages charge high prices to get to Dalaran, especially on my server which is one of the highest population Horde servers in the U.S. (Mal'Ganis). It doesn't really help your point that you had to rely on your large guild to get you to Dalaran. What about normal people?

Leveling to 80 will easily gain you over 3k gold even if you never do a daily, so you won't be broke. As for rep, seriously, what the hell? You complain about dailies and you complain about dungeons. Apparently you want to hit exalted with factions without doing anything at all. I take it back. You don't need to play Oblivion. You need to play Progress Quest or find a pretty screensaver.

As for leveling to 80 netting me 3,000 gold, I play a resto shaman. This means I leveled mostly through instances. I do not have 3,000 from that journey to 80, I'm afraid. I also find it amusing that you defend the mindless grinds of WoW, as if they're somehow different from Progress Quest. :)

Re:My Review

[Rakarra]

It may be, I don't keep damage meters installed and I'm sure at 70 my dps isn't representative of what it would be at 80, but I don't like the thought process. I distinctly remember the fights on DPS in Karazhan, wherein people were going to lose spots in the raids if they didn't have x amount of spell power (for casters, melee had other standards). This trend was spreading across guilds like wildfire. I don't like having to pick and choose guild members to take on raids, and I don't like arbitrary requirements for how to decide.

Are you saying then that you don't really want any challenge in the game? Because that's really all you can get if you decide to remove requirements for competancy from dungeons. If there is really no penalty for ignoring danger, then you're not really playing the game, more playing an interactive movie.

Re:My Review

[brkello]

I played WAR and found it to me like an MMORPG version of TF2 that was less enjoyable and less social than TF2. I do think the PvP was better balanced, but the PvE is uninteresting, the character equipment design is uninspired so that everyone of the same class looks the same, and the graphics are dull, gray, and unfinished. Really, WAR is just WoW designed around PvP. It really adds nothing new...and some of the things I thought would be nice (like instant flight paths) actually make the game worse because no one is talking and the world feels small. I enjoyed for a short period of time...but WoW blew me away. Did you do quests to the point where you got a cut scene? No? Then you didn't really experience some of the amazing story telling and fun.

Re:My Review

[Jherico]

Your response to not having access to Dalaran was "know a mage."

No. As others have pointed out there are numerous ways to get to Dalaran. I got in very quickly because of a large social network, but that doesn't mean you can't get in if you don't have a large social network. It just means you have to utilize one of the other ways to get to Dalaran, one of which of course is to level to 74.

What about normal people?

Normal people make friends.

As for leveling to 80 netting me 3,000 gold, I play a resto shaman.

You could complain about anything. No one is forcing you to play a resto shaman. In fact, Blizzard has explicitly stated that you should only NEED to play a specced tank or healing class in endgame heroics and raids. Otherwise, you're perfectly fine healing as Elemental, or tanking as Arms, which means you can also quest very easily. The cost to respec once at 70 and again back to resto at 80 is insignificant compared to the gold you could make if you wanted to quest. Even if you did decide to level to 80 purely by dungeon healing, you're still going to earn a lot of money from greens and blues that you don't use, the value of which either in enchanting mats or at vendors would far exceed any repair bill you should have as a healer.

I also find it amusing that you defend the mindless grinds of WoW

Nowhere did I do any such thing. In fact what I've said at every turn is that there are alternatives to virtually every path of advancement in the game. Your problem is that you don't want alternatives. You want free lootz without the effort, hence 'Progress Quest'. Actually I don't think you even want that. You just want to complain. Every suggestion or alternative that's been pointed out to you by myself or anyone else is be met by a new complaint to the extent that the very letters of your posts begin to take on an almost supernatural whine, like as a mosquito trapped in my monitor. If you hate the game so much, please by all means take your ball and go home. Stop standing around and threatening to do it, just go.

Re:My Review

[smegged]

The dungeons are easy from a gear point of view, but they are challenging from a coordination point of view.

Loken and the second boss in the Oculus have destroyed many PUGs, because even when 4 people know how to do it generally it is the 1 who wipes the group. I'm quite happy with the level of content in the end game. It certainly beats the old difficulty curve of BC where you wouldn't get accepted into PUG heroics if you didn't already have raid level gear.

Re:My Review

[Anarke_Incarnate]

Holy generalization, Batman. I guess the fact that my wife and I both work, have a daughter and a house we own means I can't possibly play wow in a casual raiding guild. Yes, it in fact, is casual. There is no pressure to raid, but if you go, you can have fun. If the raid goes long, we end it.

Maybe the game is not for you. However, if everything was easy, then it would mean nothing and not be a reward. Games like WOW work because they hit the reward center of the brain.

This expansion is Wrath of the Lich King. The previous one was The Burning Crusade. Did you walk in when TBC was released, press 2 buttons, kill Kil'Jaeden and walk away with a set of full gear, 10,000G and all the items you wanted?

Perhaps the game should have been like those flash banners. Maybe Blizzard should have waited 2yrs, then had you follow a scrolling Arthas with a giant boxing glove and smack him. After you hit him, you get full Tier 9 armor and your name is written forever on a scroll.

Re:My Review

[NormalVisual]

might be possible for warlocks and hunters

A lot of them are also immune to Fear and Drain/Siphon Life, which makes it a bit of an uphill battle for warlocks Hunters on the other hand can probably go with their regular MO of engaging from half the map away.

Re:My Review

[kfractal]

I'll second the "immersion" angle... I'm a sucker for a story line but Burning Crusade just didn't do it for me. This one has me hooked. The wrathgate quest line and almost suprise cut-scene was fabulous.

Re:My Review

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just a set of server-side checks that go 'has player completed quest Y? Then place NPCs A,B,C at locations D,E and F instead of locations G,H and I.

From a technical point of view there's not a lot going on there. From a playability point of view, that's destroying a lot of player/player continuity when you're following your buddy to a quest giver and it's way the fark over from where you think it should be and there's NOT EVEN ANYONE THERE :D

Re:My Review

[Jackmn]

You want free lootz without the effort

A game should not involve 'effort'. It's a game, not a job.

Re:My Review

[Anonymous Coward]

Bottom line: the people you ran with were assholes.

And so are you.

Re:My Review

[truesaer]

You let your guild mates charge you 50 gold for a port to dalaran? You need to find some friends that aren't douchebags.

Re:My Review

[Jherico]

A game should not involve 'effort'. It's a game, not a job.

That's retarded. Any sport (which are all games) requires effort to excel. What the original poster is doing is tantamount to saying he wants to play baseball and get the rewards of being a big league star player without doing any of the corresponding work.

Re:My Review

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of your gripes come down to this so I'm addressing this;

Its an MMO, massively MULTIPLAYER.

You get a good group of people to play with its a good game, you get a group of idiots to play with, its a terrible game.

If your experiences with groups and raids is as terrible as your making it sound consider it might be time for you to find a new guild.

Re:My Review

[drik00]

Sure it's a lot of work, in the sense that practicing for a sport is work, or building a ship in a bottle, or reading up and learning new programming language is... This isn't aimed at you, but I get frustrated when people bitch about the grind and the workd. It's a game, if you you don't like it, don't play it, go find a new one. Do those same people keep watching the same shitty TV show they don't like??

Yeah, the player base is growing, the just hit 11 million subscribers recently. Market saturation (IMO) is only as big as the marketing makes it. I play in a casual guild with people of age 13-60 of all different ethnicities and locations.

As far as the "new stuff"... isn't it all going to be new to you? Even remembering to before the first expansion pack, I remember being absolutely awestruck when I walked into Ironforge for the first time, and feeling the age of the elves from the music in their starting zones. I also felt the struggle of the orcs to survive in the new world, the bitterness of the Forsaken towards the Alliance and the Scarlet Crusade....You can get the sense of calm and serenity that the Tauren wish they could have again, but it is a world at war, sometimes colder, sometimes warmer, depending on the situation... The reason there is no communication between the Horde and the Alliance is because they really don't like each other as a whole. You never have to listen to someone whine or moan or bitch because you had a bad day at work and decided to murder anyone entering or leaving Southshore... Coming from City of Heroes and Star Wars Galaxies, I was floored when I saw how rich the world was. Blizzard managed to created a more rich, deeper, and immersive world than Lucasarts had with SWG, and they had 25 years of Star Wars history and mythos. I also remember being thoroughly impressed that there was no loading times between zones... it is like walking from forest to forest to grassland to marsh to jungle to another forest. The only load screen you will see is going between the major continents and into instanced content. Pretty impressive, in my opinion.

I'd say if it sounds interesting, give it a shot, what do you have to lose besides $25USD and your time? I never thought I was an MMO kinda guy until my friends made my play one rainy weekend. I love it now. You can be the guy who studies the math in order to make your character most efficient and grind for gear constantly, or you can play socially, try all the different classes and zones you didn't get to finish on your last character... despite what a lot of people seem to be saying on here (Nerd Capital of the Interwebs, so the demographic is skewed), there ARE different ways to enjoy the game.

J

Re:My Review

[Fross]

From what I hear it depends on the server, but where I am (Burlok) damn yes, Open RVR is incredibly busy in all tiers.

They upped the experience and renown you get for Open RVR kills, and recently added a bonus where those attacking a keep get a small periodic bonus, and those defending it a large periodic bonus - encouraging people to hold a keep rather than just let it flip and reclaim it.

Re:My Review

[Fross]

They've done some changes in WAR to reflect those issues - geographical chat channels have a lot wider scope now, the open party system is a bit improved (but still needs work to get as good as WoW's LFG system). You do really need a good guild alliance or something to get a feel of how busy it is, however.

Personally I'm not a fan of WoW's cut scenes so far (the in-game ones, the rendered ones are of course fantastic), and really the lore feels a bit stretched to me now (the big baddy is nefarian... no wait it's those guys in AQ... no wait it's kel'thuzad... oh we forgot about outland, magtheridon, vashj and kael'thas... oh wait, there's illidan too... and kael'thas *again* except this time he's a pushover...), the world hasn't changed to reflect any of these changes, so it loses credibility.

Re:My Review

[Anonymous Coward]

"The storytelling questing is pretty good, but IMHO not a patch on the original Onyxia chain or anything like that. TBC had almost no decent "storytelling" questing, the original WoW did. A lot of people sadly missed out on the whole BRD/BRS/MC/BWL chain around Nefarian and Onyxia, for instance, because they just powered to 58 and went to outland."

So you obviously never did the Wrathgate questlines in Dragonblight then? As a Horde, helping out the Forsaken develop their blight in Howling Fjord was uncomfortable enough, but to see the outcome of my actions - in an epic in-game cutscene - outranks any questlines in classic WoW...

And what about the Drakuru questlines in Grizzly Hills and Zul'Drak? Start by running little errands for a captured troll, run an instance and then find out you've been working for the Lich King? Then go to the next zone and see it wiped out by the scourge because you *helped* them do it?

Far beats the Onyxia questlines if you ask me.

If you take the time to do all the zones in order (i.e. Howling Fjord & Borean Tundra, Dragonblight, Grizzly Hills, Zul'Drak, Sholazar Basin, Storm Peaks and then Icecrown) the unfolding storyline is amazingly good.

Re:My Review

[Killjoy_NL]

Meh it's just the same as reading Dune if you've never done that. The whole series is quite long.

Re:My Review

[tweek]

Yeah I'm a huge fan of phasing but right now I'm sitting on the Bloodbane quest in Icecrown because I can't find anyone who's on that step yet.

It's NOT soloable (I'm a prot pally. I can solo pretty much anything). At a minimum, we would need me, a dps and a healer (even though it's marked for g5). It's getting really frustrating. Doing the quest before it (the three riders) was just as frustrating. I ended up duoing it with a rogue.

Re:My Review

[tweek]

Bloodbane, after the three Riders. Most definitely not soloable.

It's honestly the FIRST quest I've come across that uses phasing that really WASN'T soloable:

http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=13164

Re:My Review

[Anonymous Coward]

Your part about reputation is not entirely correct.

Sons of Hodir - which is needed by non-Inscribers for the shoulder-item enchant they provide - do require you to grind dailies (or grind Everfrost Chips which are rare). Most of the dailies are quite fun at the beginning (wrestling with a dragon while stabbing it with a spear) but do begin to lose their luster after a while.

Kalu'ak - the walrus-people also only have dailies that give reputation after you have reached the next-to-last reputation step. You do not get anything game-breaking from them at the last step (except for the awesomely cute Pengu - a non-combat pet).

What they need to do is more of what they've done - make it easier for alternate characters and late-comers to get reputation with the Sons, for instance, but I hope that they're adding that in later patches. So far it has been quite fun just doing the quests and enjoying them.

Re:My Review

[tweek]

Yep. The term they use is "phasing".

The first example I could think of was what was done in Blade's Edge Mountain for the Mana Wyrm daily. You just had to use a "device" to phase out.

Isle of Quel'Danas used the same technology but it was server wide. The also used the same tech on the Kalecgos fight in SWP.

WotLK really goes one step further. They sort of "mask" the transition by having you go somewhere else and come back.

The area you're talking about is The Shadow Vault. That and the Argent Vanguard quests to make headway into Icecrown are amazing in terms of landscape changing.

Re:My Review

[tweek]

Well I'm married and have a 4 month old and just started playing last year. You'll level up fairly quickly and new toons are being created all the time (either actual new players or alts for existing players) so you're never having problems finding help.

The DK hero class actually helps keep the previous expansion alive because those people still need to level up to 68 before they can hit the current content.

Re:My Review

[MikeBabcock]

Oblivion (and Morrowind before it) are much more involved games from a plot and story point of view, and of course much more suited to the single-player mentality.

Re:My Review

[Austerity Empowers]

There are nearly a dozen quests leading you to Gunbad, I've done all quests in all pairings from T1-T3. I had to keep running there often. Never did find a group who wanted to mess with it, but I had no reason to try hard.

In WAR people do PvE only to gear up for RVR. T1-T3 are generally fast enough that there's no real reason to spend time gearing up below T4. At least not for now, I'm sure the twinking days will start, but I'm not sure the ROI will be enough.

Re:My Review

[geekoid]

"the player's character has a notable impact on the structure of the world."

haha, you're delusional. You have NO IMPACT on the structure of the world. Zero, Zip, nada, goose egg.

There is a person right ahead of, and people right behind you that have done, or will do, the exact same thing you did. If you had a real impact that wouldn't be the case.

Stop kidding yourself.

Re:My Review

[DigitalSorceress]

Blizzard can stop multiboxing anytime they want... without banning them: just remove /follow from the features of WOW.

Trust me, the vehicle system and the way it breaks focus/follow has already made many quests and even at least one instance impossible to multibox.

Oh, and for the record, I HATE PVP. I suck at it. Back when I was dual boxing a holy priest and a rogue on a pvp server, (and was just grinding away leveling and questing - no pvp at all), I would regularly get jumped and my healer would be dead or cc'd before I could do a thing. Even worse was when any kind of loss of control happened.

If you get annoyed by multiboxers in opposing faction in pvp, just do something that breaks their control (fear, MC, etc...) and they're screwed. If you can get their toons separated far enough that they have to choose between letting them stand still while concentrating on one or running around herding them back together, you win.

Re:My Review

[Anonymous Coward]

Every minute you spend in game is one less minute you spend with your daughter.

No no, you play while the TV or some POS flash game raises your child.

Re:My Review

[Anarke_Incarnate]

Actually, I spend time with my daughter just fine. See, she's only a few months old, so I play when she is sleeping. She does that quite a bit. This lets my wife sleep and I carry the monitor around to make sure she doesn't wake up or need anything. Then, after a couple of hours, I go to sleep.

I make her bottles, clothe, feed and change her. I play with her and watch her when I get home (My wife does too). I guess I COULD stand over her crib the entire time I am home, but that would be creepy, not let her sleep well, and would ensure the dozens of other things I do daily don't get done.

However, thanks for playing, failing and being beaten back to wherever you came from. Enjoy your fail.

Re:My Review

[brkello]

Trash loot is worth more than 1G...it isn't a big deal. Rep grinds are not like they used to be. Dailies are another way to earn some extra gold. You choose to do it, not forced to.

For raiding, it helps to have minimum requirements. You wanting to hop in to any content with any gear is unrealistic. Part of the game is building up your gear or your level to take on greater challenges. If you aren't able to hold up your end yet, then just do the things that are at your level until you are ready. Otherwise you are wasting the time of 24 other people because you can't keep up.

Re:My Review

[brkello]

The core of the game is fun. To us who have been playing for a long time, the new content is great. For someone who is coming in new, the old content has all been polished and will be extremely enjoyable if you like these types of game. The mentality of "I have to get to the end" is a bad mind set to have when starting out. You want to enjoy the ride...otherwise you are missing out. Some personality types want to just be the best as fast as possible...for those, starting out now would be frustrating.

Re:My Review

[xavious]

Do you do crosswords that only have 2 letter words?

How about Sudoku with all but 5 boxes filled in?

Play baseball with a tee?

Everything involves effort, heck solitare involves effort, you have to think.

Re:My Review

[ArsonSmith]

I don't think gather nodes are part of this. I noticed nodes would just disappear. I think people were getting them in a different phase.

Re:My Review

[Fross]

Yeah, the difference is the WAR quests have been "Oh yeah go here", while in my example of the WoW Deadmines quests, there is a whole chain that leads you into it, gives you objectives in there and is altogether a bit more "hand-holding". WAR's approach to Gunbad has been closer to say the way WoW headed people towards Maraudon.

My bone isn't so much with that, but earlier ones like the Sacellum, or the level 11 boss in a cave in Chaos Tier 1, which I stumbled on entirely by accident.

I think the PvE can stand on its own, and certainly some endgame PvE looks like it should - I hope it will, or a lot of people will get bored.

And if you have some hints to make Tier 3 go a bit faster I'd be happy to hear them, it's been a bit more of a slog on my Chosen than my Witch Elf!

Re:My Review

[Reapy]

Sons is a big slap in the face :) But if you don't really want the small upgrade the shoulder enchants provide, you can check out the exalted aldor or scryer shoulders, which are essentially the same as the honored stuff, and much cheaper to boot. I think it will otherwise take you 28 days of dailies without picking up the everfrost chips to hit exalted. Blach.

Re:My Review

[Anonymous Coward]

Because being a parent means spending every free second you have with your child? Perhaps it would be a good idea to let the child have some time to themselves.

Re:My Review

[agrounds]

Unless I'm mistaken, none of the quests in the early stages of those quests are group quests - they can all be completed solo.

As a human holy priest on a PVP server that is almost 2:1 horde to alliance, quests are soloable only for as long as you can keep from getting ganked. Questing in groups is mandatory. Phasing has made that a bit more difficult, since you have to find people that will go from start to finish with you.

I wouldn't remove the phasing though.. it's just too cool and opens up so many possibilities for future story lines, but there are real issues with it.

Re:My Review

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with your responses wholeheartedly. And may I add "OH SNAP!".

Re:My Review

[Snaller]

"(4. If you die on another continent, you can travel there and spirit rez in town.)"

How the hell would you get up there?

Re:My Review

[Snaller]

" '' That flying mount you saved up for (worse, if you bought an epic) - can't use it until 77 or so. Bad call.''

I think this decision is used to good effect to keep people from skipping large sections of the content."

I wish people would shut up with that bullshit - if people want to skip "content" its their choice and its probably because its bad content! And a flying mount doesn't allow you to skip anything, since they all take place on the fucking ground!
(With a few flight related exceptions)

77 was way to long, my initial love turned into to utter hate was i was struggling through the last damn levels before i was once more delivered to the skies.

It should have been 72 or something, not damn 77.

At least there is the likelihood that blizzard will lower the limit, 5-10 patches from now.

fan favorite whats?

[X0563511]

Fan-favorite Murlocs have undergone a transformation

Anyone who has played this game more than a few hours knows that Murlocs are not fan favorites. In fact, they are nearly universally detested; Murlocs are one of the most irritating mobs in the game.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[illeism]

I hate murlocs about 1^-1000000000 of the amount that I hate naga - i hate all naga... let me say it one more time, I HATE FRICK'N NAGA...

P.S. I like the sound the baby murlocs make...

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Talderas]

Mrgl mrgl.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[beef curtains]

I second this.

I always considered murlocs to be irritating, but nothing terrible. After doing the murloc quests in Borean Tundra, I actually started to like them...especially the cute little baby murlocs you have to rescue.

Nagas, on the other hand...I hate them more than any other type of mob I've encountered in the game.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[X0563511]

Rargleargleargle!

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Greg01851]

you may say that until you have to release the Murloc tadpoles in the "Oh Noes the Tadpoles" quest!

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Anonymous Coward]

no way if murlocs were that hated, there would not be a toy of them at jinx.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[CEHT]

Murlocs in trade channel is one of the many reasons why I turned off trade channel altogether. They can go on for hours from what I heard.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Anonymous Coward]

The quest where you rescue their tadpoles is one of the most precious quests in the expansion. "Dada? I go home now?"

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Gabrill]

The opposite of Love is not Hate. It's indifference. Fair to say if you absolutely hate them, then just as many people absolutely love them. My own personal greatest annoyance was addressed, also. Now the Jaggal Clams stack before you open them. 8)

Re:fan favorite whats?

[colmore]

Naga, please.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Lostlander]

No hate is the opposite of love indifference is the opposite of caring. I'm really tired of seeing this complete fallacy showing up here all the time. I could care less if you think you're witty quoting Elie Wiesel. Really the man spouted some lines and followed them with. It's indifference if you spend 5 minutes thinking about what he's really saying you'd realize he's an idiot.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Anonymous Coward]

They're the race we love to hate. :P

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Anonymous Coward]

This.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[tygt]

Murlocs rock, and everyone I know would instantly roll a Murloc toon if they could.

Yes, they're a pain because they pull a whole beach of mobs to you, but between some of their antics and the sounds they make, you can't help but have a love-hate relationship with them.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[WingedEarth]

I agree. Murlocs are pretty irritating. I'm also not a fan of all the quests involving killing hundreds of wildlife. I mean, maybe those should be class quests for hunters only.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[GodfatherofSoul]

I always wondered why I hated murlocs so much. My theory is that when I first started playing WoW (my NE hunter), the murlocs were the first serious threat I encountered and the first I couldn't solo or find groups to fight against. So, they killed me A LOT.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Joe the Lesser]

hate and love can coexist, thus, they are not opposites.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Opportunist]

Oh mod this guy up some more!

Murlocks are no favorites. They are not even fun to hate. They are just pests. I'm even sure if there was a quest involving catching a murlock and then ripping him apart limb by limb, slowly, while you get to see and hear the Murlock suffer, while being able to heal him so to prolong the suffering a bit more, would be the very first quest involving Murlocks that people really enjoy doing.

Murlocks are hated for so many reasons. Insane aggro range. Insane damage output (for such a tiny creature). Self heal. Very social (sometimes it feels like Murlocks from all over the area come when someone starts gargling.

There are mobs you like. There are mobs you like to hate. There are mobs that you hate. There are mobs that you just utterly despise. And then there are Murlocks.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[An ominous Cow art]

Mrglgrgl brgl nrgl, you insensitive clod!

Re:fan favorite whats?

[An ominous Cow art]

Rampant imbecility is why I long ago left the Trade channels with all my characters.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Rakarra]

Hmmm. My guild said differently. They were amusing, cute, and by far the most popular pet was "Murky" who got his own raid icon (once they were added to the game). Unless in the middle of combat, the raid would pause if someone said "stop! Murky's dancing!" Everyone liked that little guy.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Samah]

"Mmmrrrggglll!"
Is five syllables, I think.
I don't speak Nerglish.

My winning haiku in the WarCry haiku competition. :)

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Lostlander]

So can a positron and an electron it's when they meet and are forced to finish the equation that things get interesting. Just because you can both love and hate someone or something doesn't mean they are not opposites especially if you think of them in terms of forces working on you. eventually one wins over and the other begins to fade.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[geekoid]

Um, I like the Murlocs.
And yes, I have played since the beginning.
Although WotLK is a huge disappointment. I won't go into it here, where some of these poster a ejaculating all over them selves about what is mediocore content wrapped in pretty clothing.

This emperor has no cloths.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Kashgarinn]

"Mrgl mrgl."

- Actually it's King Mrgl-Mrgl to you!

I love the new stuff in WotLK, I'm a casual player and look forward to enjoying the content for a few months at least before I get bored of it and start waiting for a content patch.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Anonymous Coward]

murlocs have a crazy cult following

Re:fan favorite whats?

[crypticedge]

My company produced and sold several thousands of murloc dolls to Jinx.
Most detested? More like most notable. Thats the only one they contracted us out in such quanities.

Re:fan favorite whats?

[Snaller]

Nonsense, the Murlocs are just misunderstood. They want to be friends, but they are used to us killing them.

Of course as you progress this time, you actually make friends with a Murloc tribe and help them out.

Unfortunately

[Kierthos]

they spent all the time making the game look very very pretty (which, I must admit, it is), and none of it creating anything for any of the professions. There are glaring holes in most of the professions, not to mention the things that have been broken since the launch of the expansion (and let's be fair, in one case, for the last four years), and don't seem to be on the "Fix anytime soon" list.

Re:Unfortunately

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean things such as the Discipline and Elemental spec trees for Priests and Shamans, respectively? Ya, there are these holes all over. Enhancement shamans, Holy Priests, others all have major problems.

Re:Unfortunately

[megamerican]

Most of the crafting professions are not finished yet. The max skill level is 450. Most crafting professions don't have recipes/plans/etc. that require 450 yet. They will be added to in the upcoming content patches, along with new raid encounters. I am an alchemist and they have yet to add any quality epic trinkets.

Its called Wrath of the Lich King and you can't yet fight him!

Re:Unfortunately

[Nefarious Wheel]

Most of the crafting professions are not finished yet.

Which doesn't mean there isn't a huge amount of content. Last night my daughter the younger told me she fished up a coin in the Dalaran fountain she said was Inigo's coin. The inscription said "I wish I had my father back".

Subtle. Little things like that make you want to look under every rock in the game.

And as far as Murlocs go, "Mrgl mrgle that, you noisome little toad! (/cast Volley)

Re:Unfortunately

[NormalVisual]

The NPC "Natalie Tootiblare" to be found in the Dalaran sewers gave me a bit of a chuckle.

Re:Unfortunately

[Bengie]

Most of the lack of craftable gear is because they're still in the process of balancing. They have stated 'many' times that they will look into any balance issues once enough of the WoW population has raided and what issues they get from that data. There problem right now is that a VERY large percentage of WoW players are sub 80 and the people who have raided thus far and have raided in beta are considered "elite" and you can't balance a game around a minority.

It is hard to make gear when you're not sure about what a class is lacking and what is making a class over powered.

eg. Block value and block rating scale VERY fast for warriors, so blizz has mostly strength with gives attack power and block. Very little gear/items have strait block value and almost nothing has block rating. If blizz stacked strait block value and rating, warriors would take almost no damage against melee mobs and would still put out nearly the same threat.

Re:Unfortunately

[SilverJets]

Glaring holes in professions? You mean like the fact that a blacksmith can make his/her own armor but can't repair it and has to pay some NPC to do it?

I tried enchanting but it was expensive and next to impossible to level. I tried alchemy but it was expensive, time consuming (REALLY time consuming if you are gathering your own herbs) and next to impossible to level. Blacksmithing is as worthless as engineering. The only professions you make any money on with very little cost is mining, skinning, and herbalism but I usually play characters with no professions because running around picking flowers is not my idea of fun. I laughed at inscription when it was introduced....nice way to compete with alchemy for the herbs on the AH.

Hardly universal.

[Petersko]

"Anyone who has played this game more than a few hours knows that Murlocs are not fan favorites. In fact, they are nearly universally detested; Murlocs are one of the most irritating mobs in the game."

A quick poll of the six friends I generally play WoW with reveals that the most irritating mob in the game is the hyena. Four (including me) are indifferent to murlocs, and two would play them as a character race if they could.

Re:Hardly universal.

[weave]

A quick poll of the six friends I generally play WoW with reveals that the most irritating mob in the game is the hyena.

/agreed.

I hate hyenas.

Re:Hardly universal.

[Anonymous Coward]

I would LOVE to play a Murloc!

I would volunteer to design their whole area.

We could make an undersea city, right in the middle of the world where the big spiral is.. or out near those islands nearby.

We could have evil Murlocs who want to bring back C'Thun

It would be epic!

Re:Hardly universal.

[Sylver Dragon]

I'd play a murloc. Sure they are annoying to fight because pulling one usually results in pulling half the beach, but they are still just all kinds of neat.
Hell, my wife actually has the murloc sound as the ringtone on her phone.

Re:Hardly universal.

[D Ninja]

/agree x 2

I hate hearing that little trill that the hyenas do when you gain aggro.

Re:Hardly universal.

[Pengo]

I can't help but wonder if those same friends would play the Jar-Jar Binks race in a starwars MMO.

Re:Hardly universal.

[Opportunist]

You just gotta go to a WoW convention some time, go to a quiet place and then call that phone. I wanna see how many people start panicking. ;)

Re:Hardly universal.

[Ihmhi]

Actually, there are two cities underneath that "big spiral". (It's a giant, magical storm called the Maelstrom.)

There are two opposing cities there: Nazjatar, capital city of the Naga, and Mak'aru, capital city of the Makrura. They are locked in constant conflict.

Lorewise, this is begging for an expansion. One side can get the Naga and the other can get the Makrura. (I'd say Allies get the Makrura and Horde gets the Naga.) Underwater mounts (think dolphins, sea turtles, Gnomish submarines, etc.). A reason to upgrade the underwater fighting. Whole new legions of "deep sea" enemies, like giant evil angler fish etc. There's enough of a backstory here to form an expansion in its own right.

Re:Hardly universal.

[Loopy1492]

Any bird with knockdown.
It makes me so MAD!

Re:Hardly universal.

[Anonymous Coward]

and two would play them as a character race if they could.

*SPOILER*

There is one quest that has you dressed up in a murloc costume. It's a pity it's not a costume you can keep.

Re:Hardly universal.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm probably too late for the poll, but just for the record, I would definitely play as a Murloc if I could.

Re:Hardly universal.

[Killjoy_NL]

I have it for an SMS ringtone ;)
My co-workers never get it and jump up when they hear it.
Even the people who don't know murlocs are scared of them ;)

Re:Hardly universal.

[strudslev]

Hell, my wife actually has the murloc sound as the ringtone on her phone.

lol I have it on my phone too, it's so funny when it rings when I am on the bus and people look for that "weird gurgling noise".

Re:Hardly universal.

[joaobranco]

A quick poll of the six friends I generally play WoW with reveals that the most irritating mob in the game is the hyena.

/agreed.

I hate hyenas.

Both of you are Horde players, aren't you? On my horde chars, granted, hyenas are a pest, but Murlocs are MUCH worse than that to lower level (up to 30) Alliance chars.

Re:Hardly universal.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mrgl'rrrrrrrrrrrrlbbbbllblblblblbllbl.

Of all the zones they had to mention, they missed

[Shivetya]

Icecrown. Which is Mordor under ice. Even has an eye, though with the new phase system you do remove it from existence in your copy. Still I got the distinct impression of Mordor from the archietecture. Throw in the cinematic from Wrath Gate quest line and this area just screams Lord of the Rings, but with dragons. The cinematic even does a good Sauron like view from over shoulder view for when the Lich King first appears. Instead of a ring its a sword this time. Still impressive.

The areas are much larger feeling than before, if anything it encourages you to spend time flying through the zones when you can just so you don't miss out on any of it.

The only real problem, no one developer can keep up with players anymore. It simply isn't possible. Players are too organized and will make sacrifices the developers cannot cope with. Instead the game has to be aimed at the casual. However with this expansion and the race to 80 it seems they either expect to have one expansion per year or have a lot of raid content waiting in the wings.

Re:Huh? What's all this?

[larry bagina]

I prefer to grind my knight in a club with lots of hot sweaty girls and booze.

I tried WoW this weekend

[BitHive]

Anyone who plays for more than a month is insane. Grind, grind, grind, don't tell me it's not. Even my friends with level 70 accounts just grind all night. And pay for the privilege.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[blahplusplus]

I agree to some extent, but we're talking about people that aren't very discriminating here. MMO's in my view are a lot religions, they attract the mediocre and the superficial. One of the reasons WoW is so popular is because it doesn't require traditional more difficult gaming skills. MMO's are glorified chat interfaces babysitting what amounts to an autonomous robot most of the time.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[UnknowingFool]

The problem with a lot of MMOs is that you need to grind to get anything good (like in life). Otherwise why play if everything is just handed to you? The changes that Blizzard has made makes it easier for casual players (a few hours a week) to get the better stuff. It's still a grind but doesn't require as much as it used to.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[ender81b]

Anyone who plays game X is insane because all you do is hit buttons Y all night long!

Just don't play it if you don't like it.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[RocketScientist]

Really? Grind?

Huh.

I've got one level 80 character and I don't remember any grinding. I remember repeating *one* set of daily quests to get a faction, and the rest was doing quests. And while there are some "go kill 10 bears" quests, there are a lot of "take this hippogryph and fly over the besieged town and pick up civilians and bring them back here". Or "here, take this harpoon, go up to this arena that's a thousand feet in the air, and use the harpoon to latch onto another hippogryph, swing up to it, defeat the rider on the hippogryph, and then swing to the next. Oh, and don't fall off it's a long way down."

The depth and breadth of quests and quest types is just amazing. And even the daily quests have a huge variety to them. It's a grind when I have to go kill a thousand mobs. It's not a grind when I have this many choices and I can mix and match them up to keep fresh.

I remember grinding for recipe drops, and those are gone now. There are very few recipes that drop for crafters, and the ones that do aren't necessary nor do they particularly sell well.

I remember grinding for reputation, and that's nearly gone now. I've repeated exactly one set of daily quests, and that's hardly a grind, and I got a really darn cool sword.

I remember grinding for cash way back when, but I finished up level 80 with 2,000 gold earned and sitting in the bank. Sure if I want a mammoth mount I've got some grinding ahead of me, but who has the time for that. My raiding budget is going to be a few hundred gold a week, but raid bosses are dropping huge amounts of money now (140g per boss in Naxxramas, so 14g per peson) which allays a lot of those costs.

Besides expenses (consumables, repairs) all of the stuff that money buys is either cosmetic (new mounts, which have no more speed or abilities than old mounts) or easily replaced by playing the other parts of the game.

They've even made grinding for gear if not an obsolete concept a really flexible one. It's hard to believe in a grind when I can do daily quests, do any of the level 80 instances in either heroic or normal mode, or go do a 10-man raid, or any combination, to get the gear I want.

Yeah, I'm not seeing any grind here really.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[lymond01]

I was just watching gameplay footage from Lord of the Rings Online. Combat doesn't seem to have changed an inkling from Everquest -- your party surrounds a single mob, and you all stand around swinging weapons. BIP! Arrg! BOOM! Arrg! BAF! Arrg!

I just started playing Left 4 Dead which puts the excitement back into combat -- if a developer could convert that style of combat to a fantasy MMO, they'd be a lot more fun.

(In fact, I consider Zombie Horde rushes to be similar to Aragorn's taking on the orcs at the end of Fellowship...seemingly overwhelming odds but, dammit, you're a hero!)

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Bill_the_Engineer]

Yea, but we get to grind while chatting with old friends and making new friends along the way.

Otherwise, I wouldn't need to be online.

Maybe you are looking at it the wrong way...

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[frostband]

I think people stay in MMOs for the social aspect of it. You made it sound like a bad thing by saying it's a "glorified chat" but really, it's chat where the people have a defined goal or objective. So they can talk about whatever including the game and their objectives in the game. I agree though if the objective is always the same, it can get boring, but that's when talking about different things comes in to play to break the monotony.

I don't play WoW, but I do play other games (TF2, L4D, WAR, ...) with "online friends" and I've been friends with these guys for over a year because we talk to each other in ventrilo about all types of stuff. I would have stopped playing TF2 a long time ago if it wasn't for chatting with these other people.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Anonymous Coward]

As an honest question, what MMO would you recommend in it's stead?

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[MetalPhalanx]

Ummm that is spoken by someone who has either never played, or never played any of the higher end content when it was fresh (as eventually Blizz nerfs the difficulty to allow more casual players to advance).

Let me guess... by "traditional more difficult gaming skills" you mean twitch reaction FPS reflexes. If you don't, then I'm all ears waiting to hear your definition of difficult gaming skills.

Go read up on the boss strategy of say... Heroic Violet Hold or 10-man Naxxramas and then talk about how simple it is. Or better yet, if you can, find a friend that plays, borrow their account, and then watch how fast you get laughed out of the raid. After all, if it's that simple, shouldn't you be able to pick it up in a few minutes?

While WoW is a time sink and does allow a lot for the casual player, there is a fairly large niche for the higher end gamer.

Oh and as far as PvP goes, explain to me how a duel between two classes that can take upwards of two minutes, where positioning is important, using over 20 abilities each (that can't just be spammed, you need to react with those abilities) is simple? How is that any more simple than an FPS game where you have two (or maybe more) weapons with a simple point and click interface?

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[truesaer]

It could be worse, apparently games that require more skill attract the intolerable, the arrogant, and the generally douchey.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot posters in my view are a lot religions, they attract the mediocre and the superficial. One of the reasons Slashdot posting is so popular is because it doesn't require traditional more difficult gaming skills. Slashdot is a glorified chat interface babysitting what amounts to an autonomous robot most of the time.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[$1uck]

L4D is absolutely amazing... I've pretty much stopped gaming in the last 10 years. Picked up an xbox 360 just for this title (and streaming netflix). Such an adrenaline rush.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Anonymous Coward]

Ultima Online circa 1998-2000. Granted, you'll need a time machine. Or wait (a few months?) for Darkfall, which seems to be the first genuinely ambitious MMOG since UO.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Fross]

The raid bosses require an enormous amount of organisation and coordination between players, but not the traditional "skill" that gamers usually refer to, reflexes, aim, timing and tactics.

You're fighting something that never changes (or changes according to set patterns), you just need to stick exactly to the script.

PvP is of course a bit more demanding, but a lot of the engine gets rid of those "skill" elements. There is a global cooldown, pretty much getting rid of the reflexes requirement. There is no aim - a fireball or sword never misses according to aim. You just have to be close enough and pointing in the right direction.

PvP fighting in WoW becomes sort of like a script as well, eg wait til the lock casts something from his shadow school then counterspell it. Or wait for the rogue to pop cloak of shadows before you use your big spells. Of course, some people break that mold but it holds for the most part. It certainly does not compare at all to something like Counterstrike or Team Fortress, where 1 on 1 combat is concerned.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[MoeDrippins]

Hey, I....

no, dammit, you're right. [sigh]

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[StikyPad]

Raid encounters aren't so much strategy as they are exercises in group coordination. Like the text adventures of yore, it's a matter of figuring out if you're supposed to "take analgesic" or "use analgesic with water." Once you've figured out the proper sequence/combination intended by the author, it's just a matter of getting everyone on the same page. Other activities that require coordinated group efforts: marching bands and dancing. They can be satisfying to participate in, and to watch, but neither are what we would typically consider to be games. And like dogs learning a trick, the drive is not to perform the act itself, but to receive the reward at the end. The drama in every high-end guild ultimately reveals this.. people are dissatisfied with their rewards, or the rules by which the rewards are distributed. No one is ever satisfied with the simple knowledge that they performed a successful "sit" or "roll over"; they want their doggy treats. WoW, like other activities, can be enjoyable ways to kill time, but when it gets to be more than that, keep in mind that all that work is for nothing more than a virtual doggy treat and that, at best, you've only succeeded in doing exactly what someone else intended you to do (and if you haven't; they'll get to you in the next patch).

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Anonymous Coward]

Seconded. WoW PvP is by far one of the most complex and fast-moving player versus player experiences ever. Take a little bit of the complexity of RTS micromanagement, mix in about 3/4ths 'twitch gaming reflexes' and you have WoW PvP.

• Every class has certain skill rotations that you have to use to maxamize how much damage you put out.
• Every class has a small bag of tricks that counteract every fighting style (i.e. melee, caster, ranged physical, etc.) you'll encounter.
• Every class has a backup set of skills you can use when people use said counters on you (i.e. you have counter-counter measures).
• Every class has a small set of other classes that they share a certain amount of synergy with (like Shadow Priests/Affliction Warlocks or MortalStrike Warriors/Enhancement Shamans) that can give you huge advantages in PvP games that are heavily teamwork-centric (like 3v3s).

I am much more impressed by good WoW PvPers than I am by good FPSers.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[cyber-vandal]

WoW has plenty of them too.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Lostlander]

WoW is a social skillset game it requires that in order to do your best you need to be able to get along with other people for an hour at minimum. That's not to say you can't sit there and play it by yourself but honestly that's the same as single player CS or TF you don't gain anything from it. You don't have to get along with people in a fps you just have to kill the other guy faster. There are no significant tactics in a FPS that can't be learned by a low IQ army/marine grunt. Strategy games both RTS and TBS are the thinking mans game they require that you strategize as to how best to win the battle so basically it boils down to this.

FPS = Physical Conditioning/Skill set
RPG/MMORPG = Social Skill set/divisiveness
RTS/TBS = Mental Skill set/Mental Response time

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Hubbell]

There is no twitch in WOW pvp, what are you talking about? The game is all autohit dicerolls of level/item/class vs level/item/class. Asheron's Call had fully twitch based pvp, of course there was auto targetting but you could manually dodge arrows/magic bolts + move while casting allowing for truly fast paced and fluid PVP combat, also allowing 1 person to take on multiple people, or a small group of people to take on a much larger group.
Darkfall is going even further and blending FPS combat (third person perspective for melee, first person for missile/magic) with MMORPG elements. Full loot, no restriction pvp, no levels (entirely based on raising individual skills ala UO), no autotarget/hit, kingdom/city building + siege warfare, essentially complete player freedom to do damn near anything.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Anonymous Coward]

But only if:

You like botting toons to max level in 3 days time. No, really. They did nothing about botting, and even without botting, the game was absurdly easy to level skills up.

You like not having any roles to fill, and grouping was only about having enough bodies to spread out the damage. Everyone was a jack of all trades, master of the only 6 skills that really mattered.

You like unrestricted ganking PvP all the time. Here's the game where the term "griefing" was coined.

You like games that don't allow for a casual or non-PvP play style. You couldn't avoid it until they broke the game for those PvP die-hards.

You like games where you either play at launch, or you have no real point in playing. Much like EVE these days, the entrance to play now is too high. UO was the same way.

You like games without much community.

It's amazing how many people still can't think of UO without their pecker in their hand, stroking furiously as they type about how great it was with their off-hand. I'm sorry, but the game felt ground breaking when it launched, but there is a reason why it lost its foothold and EQ took over. EQ had better graphics, no worthwhile PvP so a community formed that shared information readily, and actual class roles that fostered grouping and teamwork.

UO fanbois just need to get over it already. The game was losing players to EQ at a drastic rate, and they simply killed off the last of their player base with the light/dark shard thing. And go figure! You give players the option of doing stuff in a non-PvP setting at their choice on the same server, and the PvP side turned into an arena. Only people that wanted to PvP at that time were there, so it was empty more often than not. No risks! And the game collapsed into nothing.

Keep stroking, guys. Play on one of the many servers out there, and see how lame it really was.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[MetalPhalanx]

Timing and tactics do play a large part. What you're calling group co-ordination I call tactics. I agree that aiming doesn't really play a part, it's just not part of the skill set of the game. As far as reflexes go, there are definitely reflex moments.

For example, when I'm tanking, I watch to see what spell the boss is casting... depending on what spell, I may hit my spell reflect. I don't want to reflect just any spell, as I can only reflect one spell every 10 seconds. I have to consciously decide that THIS is the spell I want to reflect (doing 4000+ damage to all party members) rather than the wimpy spell which does less than half that to one member. If the spell has a 1 second cast time, I have to be really on top of things to get the reflect off in time. This is on top of the regular tanking activities I have to maintain at the same time.

Also another point, while bosses still tend to be in set patterns, there are some elements of randomness being added in. For example, plucking a random encounter out of my head, there is a boss which randomly selects one party member and makes a beeline for them, owning everyone in the way (for those who play, the 3rd boss in Utgarde Pinnacle). Yes it's a scripted action, but there's no "safe" spot to stand, because you never know who he is going for or when. You just have to pay attention and scatter when you see him start spinning. I've seen him do it as many as three times a fight, or not at all.

As far as pvp, the reflex is definitely still in it. I'm guessing you see no reflex in it because you feel the cooldown limits your twitch ability. You could even say that the reflex switches to how quickly you can decide on an appropriate action and select it with accordance to the global cooldown timer... your WoW reaction time is really the time between your GCD being up and you pressing the next action.

An offhand comment to the no aim thing... I can assure you that it's actually a lot more difficult than you think. I always constantly dance around in PvP. Unless you use an ability which holds me in place, or get far enough away that I have no way to get to you before it goes off, I will constantly position myself at the last second so that the spell fizzles. I've been able to go through an entire fight frustrating an opponent because he's never able to get a spell off, because at the very last moment I'm all of a sudden behind him. Or on the flip side, kiting a melee class, staying just out of their range so they can't damage you while you continually own them. And, there are people who are WAY better at that than me.

And while a one on one PvP fight can end up feeling rather scripted, there are a very large amount of variables to be accounted for. The talent specialization of a character can really change how they play, meaning it changes how you have to react. Also, an actual good player will play on the standard reactions. (A rogue who will not pop cloak of shadows for example, will just continue to dps you down while you wait for that "scripted" action to occur.) ALSO (yeah I'm saying that a lot) if a fight is over in 10 seconds that's one thing... but if it lasts beyond the first 30 seconds, what do you do once all your cooldowns are used? If you've used your super power abilities and have to wait a couple of minutes before they're available again, how do you handle that? Many people can handle the scripted actions for the first 15-20 seconds.. but then fall apart if forced to fight beyond that.

Also, Blizzard has continually stated that they do not balance play for 1v1 pvp. So a lot of 1v1 turns into a complicated game of paper rock scissors... but as soon as you add in any other class, the combinations go up incredible. 2v1 is a totally different situation, 2v2 yet again. 1v1 combat does happen, but more often it's an indeterminate number of players and an indeterminate mixture of classes. Some classes also work together better. I've seen a good pair that worked will together (lock and spriest) take out 5 who didn't work as well togeth

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[dr00g911]

I've seen almost zero grind for anything this time out.

It's been a few weeks since launch, and I play casually (hate the casual = person who doesn't raid meme going around). Guild with myself and 3-4 real life friends who are almost never at the same level to run stuff together.

I've gotten exalted with all the factions whose loot I wanted, simply from questing and picking a tabard when I log in to run heroics.

Quest, run a few dungeons, get what you need.

Playing a few hours a few nights a week, I've gotten my engineering motorcycle, and filled half of my equipment slots with Naxx 10/Archavon 10/25/ and badge gear, rarely running the same content twice. To top it all off, this is a Pally tank that I've never raided with before (Warlock changes make them far less fun to play at the moment, so my lock is in retirement).

I've gotten together pickup groups for 10-man runs, and we've made our way through pretty successfully, Sapphiron & KelThuzad down in 2 runs with nobody who's run the stuff before.

Look, I raided in a hardcore fashion for months and months back in EQ and original WOW just to get a specific shoulder piece to drop from a boss. 40 men, guild and time commitment required. Repeat the same stuff over and over until you're burnt out.

There's none of that anymore, and I don't need a guild just to see all of the endgame content (which is all I really care about). Sure you can grind for that absolutely perfect piece of equipment, but there are statistically identical alternatives everywhere -- and the badge system means that you'll never run 100 runs in a row without several pieces of gear to show for it.

In my experience, great loot dropped quick and plentifully. Which just means I can see deeper content faster, and retire till the next content patch.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Endo13]

Or maybe, just maybe, the people playing MMOs are people who like playing computer games with other people. That includes people who never played computer games before because it wasn't social enough, and people like myself who have just gotten bored of playing with AI for so many years. I've played many many first-person-shooters over the years, as well as games from any genre you care to mention. Once you've played so many in any particular genre, there's really not much they can do to make it interesting enough to stick around for. Sure, $NEXTHOTFPS has nicer graphics than $LASTHOTFPS, and it may even introduce some "new" feature (OMG look, I have a flamethrower, NOW I can shoot cool flame effects from the crosshairs!!!). At the end of the day, it still ends up being exactly the same thing: move your view with your mouse to "aim" the crosshairs and shoot the bad guys. As a bonus, you get to play online with a bunch of douchebags you've never met before, of which 5% will be cheaters and 50% will be assholes who make sure you know it. Hate to break it to you, but on average the players in MMOs are more mature, more intelligent, and more friendly than players in FPS's. You want to see the mediocre and superficial, go play Counterstrike and BF2142. You'll find more in a day than you wanted to run into all year.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[MetalPhalanx]

I agree about the raid encounters. Really a lot of what you said is true.

I'll say two things in rebuttal. Firstly, while I agree that a lot of the raiding is as you say, there is also the PvP side to WoW... And there you can actually gain some recognition if you really care to. Secondly, wouldn't almost all video games fall into the broad category of "You do something that someone else scripted for you and get rewarded"? Even a generic FPS multiplayer is placing you in a group of people with no other directive than to kill the opposing team for the sole reason of winning. The need to kill all opposing team members is still scripted.

In fact, wouldn't almost every game fall into this category? Do something by the rules and be rewarded either by an advantage or the prestige of "winning" or otherwise?

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[bonch]

I play games to get away from the grind of life.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[bonch]

You grinded when you leveled to 80, for starters. You have to grind dungeons for gear, which you even admit at the end of your post (weirdly, you don't refer to it as grinding). You'll also be grinding when 3.1 comes out and the real endgame content is released.

Also, here is not that big of a variety in quests. People reference a few memorable ones while ignoring the tons upon tons of "Kill X of Y" quests. The worst of WotLK is the large number of "Run to this location and then come back so I can tell you what to do there" quests. The quest giver refers to it as scouting the location. I refer to it as stupid game design.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Anonymous Coward]

Written by a real fanboy here. I used to play, and I'll refute your garbage here:

Any FPS gamer could easily pickup as a DPSer in WoW. The abilities a DPS class uses are very limited. Other than that you just have to move in the correct pattern to satisfy the boss mechanics.

Dueling is garbage. 20 abilities? Basically dueling comes down to rock/papers/scissors. Actually, some classes are mushroom, and some are gatling gun.

Now let me guess your main, Rogue? FPS games require precise aiming and reflexes. WoW require a huge ass and no life. No amount of skill in WoW can bridge a gear gap or a class gap if you run into the wrong character, its a game designed to make the skill-less feel skilled.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Hoi Polloi]

Speaking of Blizzard spicing up quests...

I have to mention my favorite quest so far, the "suicide bomber" quest in Howling Fjord. Running a big golem bomb around a town grabbing aggro then detonating leaving a big mess. Easy and fun.

Then there is the tank quest in the Borean Tundra area where you drive a tank with a cannon and saw blade on the front. I think one of Blizzard's developers must've been a Carmageddon fan.

The quests are nicely clustered geographically which means I can crank through almost 10 or so in a couple hours. The new tabard rule for gaining reputation also means I have greater freedom for how and where I gain reputation. In TBC if the only group I can find wants to run an instance I can't gain rep from anymore I felt like I was wasting my time. That is no longer the case.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Opportunist]

To be fair, it's not much different with MMOs. There's very little I can find in WoW that I haven't seen done before in another MMO. When you strip the fluff, even the latest expansion of WoW is just yet another few more level with basically the same quests (get X of Y, kill X of Y, take X to Y...), with a little story here or there, but that's it.

I also can't say that the average WoW player is the epitome of maturity. But it's admittedly easier to choose your group and make sure you're playing with people who have the ability to rub two brain cells together without worrying they might lose half their thinking capacity should one of them get damaged in the process.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Omega996]

well, I suppose it's not a bad thing to be a glorified chat, if you don't mind spending $15 a fucking month for the privilege, along with the $30/each updates.

Sounds like a deal to me.

jesus fucking christ.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Endo13]

I didn't say there was a huge difference, but the point is if you're comparing, MMOs are not where you find the "mediocre and superficial" gamers.

As far as thinking capacity goes, just for example the theorycrafting done by players of virtually every MMO I've played is amazing. Not to mention that you have a lot more players that understand teamwork than in any given FPS.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Omega996]

It seems like they're all here on Slashdot at the moment, going on about the social, managerial, and reflex-oriented skills that are needed to play WoW.

Seriously - social skills? The same set you use with AIM or when sending a text message on a cell phone. I love how organizing or co-leading a raid really means you've got what it takes(!) to manage people or resources.

For fuck's sake, people, WoW is the least-common denominator of gaming now - there's no skillset required. Persistence and slavish devotion is what this game rewards, not innovative tactics or strategy. PvP is a matter of who has the biggest grind-peen, and thus has the most 1337 gear. What kind of skill do you need to employ with autoattack?

It's great that people love WoW, but don't fucking try to tart it up. It's designed to sit you in front of the computer, grinding day in and day out, leeching $15 a month out of your pocketbook.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Omega996]

"I don't remember any grinding" and "I remember grinding for cash way back when" could be considered exclusive statements, you know.
Maybe you meant to say that you didn't repeat any content, after way back when?
I know for a fact that the first 10 levels of the game (when it should be putting tenterhooks into your brain, not dulling it with stupid repetition) are packed with lots of mind-numbing "kill/return x of y" quests that do absolutely nothing to hook you into the game.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[RocketScientist]

I guess it depends on what you call "Grinding". For me, grinding is repeatedly killing the same set of mobs over and over in hopes of a random 1% chance drop. I've done grinding in WoW, and it's got it's own rewards (trying to improve your own efficiency) but it's not fun really. The only real grind left in the game is fishing. And that's something I do while I'm chatting with my friends on Ventrilo anyway.

When I run a 45 minute instance 6 times over 2 weeks, I don't think of that as grinding. When I have to kill the same 25 mobs standing outside black temple for 3 hours a day for cash for my epic mount, that's grinding. Pretty much grinding for cash left the game when the daily quests started. Grinding for reputation was still in, but the reputations got less and less important later in Burning Crusade. While reputations are very important in Wrath, they're also very easy to get and there are many varied places to get reputation, so it doesn't feel like a grind. Let me put it this way about reputation: Right now I'm trying to figure out what reputation to work on because none of them offer me any life-or-death upgrades. I think I'm going to work on the one that lets me buy the cool dragon mount. I started working really hard on reputations last Saturday morning. I finished all the regular quests, ran all the daily quests for Ebon Hold and ran 2 different heroic instances and had the faction done at the end of Saturday. That's not a grind. That's a day's play.

Where's the line? For me it's when it quits being fun and starts being tedious. There's enough variation in the game so far that it hasn't happened. The daily quests range from the "go kill 5 of these and 5 of those" to "go enslave a giant abomination, run it into the middle of a big group of bad guys, and blow it up". The quest variety is huge.

I don't really count instances as grinding, because I'm playing with friends, and saying that's a grind is like saying a weekly bridge party is a grind. It's the constant solo activity that really spells out grind for me. And I haven't seen any of that. I can't even think of anything to be gained by killing the same set of 25 mobs over and over again.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[frostband]

We pay $60 / 6mo for a ventrilo server. So $10/mo/(#num of people pitching in)

Or would that be $10 / fucking month

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Anonymous Coward]

Seemed a lot like grinding to me. Little, pointless quests to kill 10x of this, or deliver that, still equates to grinding in my book.

They took away flight "so we wouldn't miss all the new content". Then give it back at 77 for another 1K gold. That pissed me off. Seemed really pointless and punitive.

My subscription expired last week. Lack of support a month or so ago had me cancel. Lack of any fun in the game kept me from renewing.

The expansion just didn't do it for me.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[bonch]

I count instances as grinding because they are the primary way of progressing your character once you've hit max level. When the quests are all done, it's how you spend your time in WoW from that point forward. Even the PvP is compartmentalized into little instanced dungeons for gear in the form of the Arena.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Omega996]

I didn't want to presume that people were buying WoW time or WoW + voice chat server in blocks. I figured someone would say something if they were.
So, only $10 a month to have an AIM client with defined goals/objectives, oh, and with voice if you set that up with something else? Damn, what a deal!

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[obeythefist]

Strange, because I know people who play Bejewelled for longer than I play WoW. Sure, it's a bit cheaper, but they don't even have a virtual L70 dude with virtual "purple" items to show for it.

Although, we do have one thing in common, we spent our time doing a repetitive but enjoyable activity.

Other enjoyable yet potentially repetitive activities that humans perform for pleasure are as follows:

- Sex
- Fishing
- Sport
- Boardgames
- Card games
- Eating
- Reading
- Walking
- Running
- Cycling
- Preparing food
- Going to the local pub
- Waking up in the morning
- Going to sleep at night
- Gambling
- Playing CCG's
- Swimming

I could go on... if you aren't enjoying the repetitive activity that is the human experience, you're quite free to stop.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Lost Engineer]

On an easy mob sure that would probably work, although it still wouldn't be a good strategy. A troll, for instance, would scatter you all with one big swing and run straight for whomever looks like he's least likely to block a hammer blow to the head.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Mike610544]

Seriously - social skills? The same set you use with AIM or when sending a text message on a cell phone. I love how organizing or co-leading a raid really means you've got what it takes(!) to manage people or resources.

Managing a successful WOW guild requires substantial social skills. Even with a guild that's doing well and getting loot there's constant infighting and conflicting personalities to be managed (look at how frequently the top guilds disintegrate.) Never mind forming the guild in first place; it's like starting a company but there's no venture capital so you have to sell individual employees on the business plan alone.

Any time I was in a guild that had any luck, the person running it was universally respected and well liked. That's tough to pull off when you're talking about 50 semi-random people each with their own agenda.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Anonymous Coward]

World of Warcraft is a weakly competitive game.

Warcraft 3 players do magnitudes more actions per minute than wow players.

FPS players require positioning, timing, and accuracy, all within a time-frame of less than a second.

WoW is random number based, gear based, racial ability based, and class-based (druids, rogues, warriors, warlocks of s2-s4 need i say more?), there are certainly timing aspects, as well as positioning and strategy/knowledge, but its weaknesses leave much to be desired.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[emanem]

You're right sir. The problem is that then PvP relied a lot on gears. I hope the difference between gears levels will be reduced in WotLK. Otherwise once SC2 will be out (or id's Rage) I'll jump the ship. Cheers,

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[rotide]

Because, obviously the only thing people get WoW for is to chat.. Right? There is no game as well? One with a HUGE world to do MANY things in? No you're right, we pay so we get AIM with pretty backgrounds.

If you don't like the game, great, don't play. But your ignorance and hyperbole is laughable at best. Obviously you have issues with WoW, so stop posting in threads about it. You're just coming across as an ignorant troll.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[MikeBabcock]

Managing a WoW raid requires substantially higher managerial skills than those players had before they started. Scary, but true.

Entertainingly, some of those players do NOT have the skills to manage a simple raid, and then wonder why they can't get ahead in their job either.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[MikeBabcock]

To answer your question directly: play because its fun to play.

I played HOURS of Qbert and Jumpman Jr. when I was younger ... and what did I get out of it? A highscore. What did I get while playing? Nothing. It was just fun.

If the grinding is fun to do, then its fun. If its just something you do to "get to the fun part" then the game is faulty as a game (although probably successful as a business model).

I've put MONTHS of real time into playing Wurm and enjoyed most of it. Some people would go in and grind for hours to get something they wanted as a skill, while others just did whatever they felt like and had lots of fun doing it. Grind doesn't make a game less fun if the grinding is part of the gameplay.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Omega996]

actually, I'm not the one who started the whole "WoW is a glorified chat app, blah blah blah", and then carried it forward with nonsense about how it being glorified chat wasn't a bad thing.
There is a lot to do other than sit around and use it as a chat client, and I'm sure a good part of the subscriber base don't use it as some kind of fantasy Second Life.
Troll I might be, but not ignorant. All it takes to see the ignorance is a perusal of the defenses presented for this game by a lot of the people who feel the need to defend their choice of entertainment - ignorance is attempting to present WoW as more than it is; as if WoW has ramifications and demonstrates broad skillsets needed beyond the confines of the virtual world it takes place in.
I'll stop posting when you fans of this game lay off with your bullshit about how WoW is more than a game whose attraction stems from the fact that it caters to the least-common denominators in gameplay.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Anonymous Coward]

"Grinded"? How's the English language working out for you?

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[brkello]

I am sure this is a common sentiment, but until you attempt to do something like run a high-end guild, you have no idea what you are talking about. It is attempting to herd cats. You have to handle different personalities, people with different objectives, and unify them around a common goal. It does take social skills. And all guilds use voice chat...so no, it isn't like text messaging. You may want to put it down because it is a game, or you don't like it, or you are jealous you don't get to play it because your wife has you by the balls...but once again, you are pretty clueless and probably couldn't handle it.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[geekoid]

It is false dichotomy in that you think it's either grind, or just hand you stuff.

There is a wide middle ground there that many other games use.

There is a lot of grind because o one is thinking out side that box when it comes to MMORPG.
Blizzard is getting close.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[geekoid]

You go to level u0 with no grinding? Then you have very low skill levels in professions, or you buy gold.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[dtml-try MyNick]

In WoW classic I managed a raiding team from MC to Naxx.
It started out as a burst of childish anger because I could not get a spot in the then 2(!) high-end raiding guilds on my server.
So.. how hard could it be to get 40 people together and kill some stuff?

It turned out to be one of the most daunting tasks I have ever layed upon myself. (no, I do not have a management job.. that might have helped)

Point is, you have to deal with a odd 60 people, mostly male in the age range of 15 to 45 from about 12 different countries. Thus with 12 different language and cultural backgrounds. With mostly hormones and greed as their motivator. Talk about a hard crowd.

You have to melt that group into a really tight bunch of people that work together like a machine.
This has to be done twice a week for several hours. Using only text msg-es and voip.

Besides the actual raiding hours you have to manage all the things around it, did the dkp update as it should, did people get the loot they should have gotten. If not, fix that. You get dozens of whine msg-es about people that feel they have been treated unfair for what ever reason. Explain why someone didn't get a spot this week, make sure your mt's don't go on a holiday all at once. If they do make sure you're prepared etc. etc.

Raiding and gear brings out the worst in people sometimes, yet you have to remain cool and solve it always just to keep the team rolling.

The tactic part of raiding is just teaching a couple of monkeys a trick. The hard part is to get those monkeys repeat that trick over and over without them walking away.
If you do not have a huge amount of social skills you won't make it past the first instance as a whole team. Social skills are far far more important then the tactics.

I learned a lot during that period, more then any company could have teached me about management in the same period of time.
It was fun, it was insane, I won't ever do it again but I am so glad and proud I did it.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[geekoid]

"few hours a few nights a week"
so h=what? at least 10 hours a week?

Only someone playing WoW would think playing 1/16 of their week as 'casual'

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[illumin8]

Seriously - social skills? The same set you use with AIM or when sending a text message on a cell phone. I love how organizing or co-leading a raid really means you've got what it takes(!) to manage people or resources.

For fuck's sake, people, WoW is the least-common denominator of gaming now - there's no skillset required. Persistence and slavish devotion is what this game rewards, not innovative tactics or strategy. PvP is a matter of who has the biggest grind-peen, and thus has the most 1337 gear. What kind of skill do you need to employ with autoattack?

Clearly you have never led or been a part of a 25 man (or 40 man back in the day) raid. Managing a raid is one of the most difficult management experiences I have ever seen. How many managers have regular conference calls (Ventrilo) with 25 people and have to cater to all of their needs, educate them on tactics, put up with inter-personal conflicts (loot drama, etc.), and accomplish goals?

Don't trivialize it because you've probably never participated in a well run raiding guild, but it takes a lot of management experience. It takes a lot of management experience to get 25 people that probably wouldn't get along in real life and smooth over all of their egos and get them to organize and come together to accomplish a goal.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Omega996]

High-end? Is that what it's called when you have a significant membership?
I put the game down because:
  a) fucktards like you spring to the defense of the thing, talking about how great it is and how you're developing your social/managerial/reflexive/whatever skills by playing it
  b) it is extremely popular not because of anything new, innovative, or interesting, but because the entry-point is low
  c) because the game is boring and pretty generic if you're not inclined to care one way or another about Blizzard's derivative works.

Game play is something that a 7-year-old with Down Syndrome could master after one session. Classes are tired DnD/Tolkien-derived archetypes, with Blizzard's GW-inspired fluff thrown on top. Then there is the WoW Community - many of whom are people who seem to think they're something special because they lead, co-lead, or otherwise participate at some level in a guild composed of groups of friends' friends or otherwise 1337-enuf players. Their amazing social skills rise to the forefront when they lead or otherwise ride herd over groups of these prima donnas through missions where the challenge is not in the mission itself, it's in keeping people focused on the simple objectives while aking sure everyone gets along and gets enough phat lewt for the hour or so to complete an instance. It's not like herding cats. It's like herding a bunch of developmentally-challenged people through a trip to the mall.

I've played your game, brkello. it's fucking retarded, and the user community is composed primarily of social malcontents who somehow believe that talking with their 'friends' while wearing a headset and watching each other's characters dance around on a computer screen is social interaction.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[StikyPad]

PvP is more often fun it its own right, but it represents a much smaller portion of the player base than PvE, and even PvPers cannot (and usually do not try to) avoid PvE entirely, even after achieving the top levels. Cash is still required for repairs, food, etc.

As for the remainder, completing a task because it is fun is different that completing a task because there is a reward at the end. We typically make the distinction with the labels of work and play. We get paid for one, and we're willing to pay for the other. MMORPGs have managed to turn that model on its head. Even learning a new job is usually fun, at first, yet we continue after the initial pleasure subsides because we get the reward of a paycheck. Likewise, a raid is usually fun at first, but after the fun is gone, there is a pressure to continue, both because you need your raid-mates in order to achieve the next reward, or the next new raid (which might be fun). If you stop once you're done (assuming you're not the last), then you've let other players down. Genius.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Omega996]

I'd have to disagree with the premise that management in a guild has to do with catering to everyone's needs. If you are leading the group, what is this catering crap? You're in charge, fucker, for good or ill. This wishy-washy bullshit about not offending prima donna egos and such is exactly why I think all of you who talk about how 'difficult' it is to manage your guild all full of shit.
All of these complications from your interactions are self-imposed. You make WoW sound like MySpace, but with quests. "Oh, I don't want to piss off Cairne_Bloodhoof_9993 because he/she will quit my guild, will talk shit about me to the other guilds, and our ranking will go down."
I've worked with managers in Real Life (you know, where I get paid to do some work, not where I pay to sit and chat and play a game) - some were mamby-pamby like most of you defending the complexity of managing a guild. Some were hard-asses. The ones who couldn't decide to what to do for fear of pissing team members off had the most divisive, counter-productive groups: Programmers who each had their own agenda, depending on what their particular focus was (user interface vs back-end implementation); UNIX vs Desktop vs Network Admin vs Tech support, so on and so forth.
The Bastards, who didn't care who was mad, seemed to generate about the same bit of resentment, but it wasn't from a shifting group of people every week. Everyone hated the Bastards, but we all knew where we stood in regards to getting our shit done. Trying to be everyone's friend didn't make the wishy-washy managers everyone's friend - it made everyone suspicious that every other group was getting special treatment.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[brkello]

But when you are doing them to get to 80, it isn't really grinding since it is the first time you played them and they are interesting. If you don't like what happens after 80, then quit. And don't bother whining about it because no one cares. Obviously they like it and you aren't going to change that.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[brkello]

Actually, I have never ever talked about that in game or on Slashdot. For a brief period of time, I co-led a raiding guild. I don't put it my resume. I just respect the people who can run those guilds because it really does take a lot of the skills you mention. You seem more defensive than me about it. I am not posting in articles about a game I don't like. It seems like you have the problem.

So the only reason this game is popular because the entry point is low...right. Blizzard has never really innovated. They took popular game genres and made them better and more fun. What's the crime in that? Does every game have to innovate to be good? You people who cry about innovation are just trying to find something complain about. A lot of people find it fun. You don't. Great, don't read the articles and just shut up. You should be surprised that people who like the game don't care that you don't.

Good, you played the game (obviously not very far, but oh well). You are just a judgmental prick who stereotypes people who play it. WoW is played by all sorts of people. It is 100% fine that you tried it and don't like it. But telling other people how they are because they enjoy the game? Like other people have said, just "STFU". Why aren't you socializing with your awesome social skills instead of posting comments about a game you hate? On the other hand, I think you are the perfect personality type to play Eve.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[brkello]

You just are arguing for the sake of arguing. You never really experienced it, so you are just continuing to talk out your ass. You also appear to have never read anything on leadership or project management. You aren't paying these people. If you are just a dick, they leave and find somewhere that has a competent guild leader that can get people to work together. You are just so dead set on saying these people have no skills. You are wrong. Go find a game that you actually like and try organizing large groups of people. Hell, I have organized soccer leagues and that has taken less skill than it does to run a WoW raid. You just aren't going to listen...and I am not really communicating this in a way that would make you listen. But I really don't feel like pretending to be nice to someone who is being an ass.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[illumin8]

I'd have to disagree with the premise that management in a guild has to do with catering to everyone's needs. If you are leading the group, what is this catering crap? You're in charge, fucker, for good or ill. This wishy-washy bullshit about not offending prima donna egos and such is exactly why I think all of you who talk about how 'difficult' it is to manage your guild all full of shit.

Of course a good manager doesn't just do everything for their guild members, or their employees. Face it, in the workplace, you have a reason to come to work: to get paid. Still, managers that get their employees to perform well usually have an interest in making sure their employees are healthy, happy, and have the right tools to do the job. This is what I mean when I say "catering to their needs". It's not making coffee for them or giving them free stuff to keep them happy.

I suspect you wouldn't last very long as a GM with that type of attitude.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[rotide]

"All it takes to see the ignorance is a perusal of the defenses presented for this game by a lot of the people who feel the need to defend their choice of entertainment"

But it's fine for you to try and attack peoples choice of entertainment.

Glad to see your priorities are straight.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Omega996]

No, Eve isn't my thing, either. Sad to say, if I had to choose WoW or Eve, man... i don't know what I'd do.
The reason I am posting is because I'm at work, bored as hell while waiting for approvals for layouts and such.
I don't have a problem, per se, with people who play WoW - it's the attachment of 'skills' used in the game to some sort of significance in real life. It would be equally pretentious of me to spout off about how I'm a terrific marksman, and can survive on my own in the wilderness because I play Fallout 3.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Omega996]

At least, not in a guild filled with people who feel that they individually are rockstars, and everyone else needs to cater.
I've managed a couple of guilds, but they were small, and the people weren't all wrapped up in their characters or skills or whatever. We were all people who were of a mind that since we were paying to play the damned game, we should enjoy ourselves, not get into bitchfests about who got what loot or what we were going to do.
In retrospect, I do remember a couple of guilds which were constantly recruiting because the leader was an absolute hard-ass (some military kid ) who decided everything, and their membership was constantly in turnover. So yeah, maybe you (and brkello) are right about that...

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Omega996]

no, no, no. I don't like the game, I admit that. I think it's fine/cool/great/whatever if other people like it. I just think it's asinine to say that one is developing meaningful skills while playing the thing.

Re:I tried WoW this weekend

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everyone is an engineer yanno. Skinners/LW, Tailers, and several others are fairly self sustaining. I haven't spent a cent on LW from 70-80 and it is slowly moving towards maxed.

Bought it, renewed and then...

[tacarat]

... I'm not going for a second month. It's nice and all, but there's not enough change for me to feel less burnt out. Maybe in another few months. By then I'm going to have to deal with being very far behind everybody in terms of levels and progress. Bah.

Maybe I should just start a toon in the Hello Kitty MMO.

Re:Bought it, renewed and then...

[Spazztastic]

Maybe I should just start a toon in the Hello Kitty MMO.

At least there you'll be accepted for wanting to play casually.

Re:Bought it, renewed and then...

[tilandal]

You seem to have an odd notion of tween girls. Hello kitty is going the most hardcore mmo ever seen on the face of the planet. If your friends list isn't longer then the yellow pages and you don't have every one of the latest nick-nacks to decorate your kitty house you might as well be dead.

Re:Bought it, renewed and then...

[mweather]

Try Eve Online. It's space-based, but no level grind at all, and you never fall behind your friends. Skills are time based, you set the skill you want to train, and you learn it, whether you're playing or not. I wish there were a decent fantasy or other non-spaceship game that did the same.

Re:Bought it, renewed and then...

[tacarat]

Maybe I should just start a toon in the Hello Kitty MMO.

At least there you'll be accepted for wanting to play casually.

I wonder how the HC board trolls are. WoW kept me paying for months after the game got stale by having the AH to mess with and trolling.

Re:Bought it, renewed and then...

[tacarat]

I liked that mechanic, but it felt like an outer space commuter flight simulator for the beginning part. I'm not saying there is an MMO out there I'd like. I might just be needing something different for now.

Re:Bought it, renewed and then...

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny? How about insightful? ;)

Re:Bought it, renewed and then...

[tacarat]

Wil Wheaton will save us.

Re:Bought it, renewed and then...

[Greyfox]

To be fair (And I play it) you also need a reasonable stack of in-game cash to buffer yourself against potential ship losses and to acquire new ships and modules as you skill up. Funny thing about EvE is that I think it captures exceptionally well what flying around in space would be like. That's long stretches of flying around punctuated by brief bursts of activity.

If you run the OSX client the brief bursts of activity are usually accompanied by a client crash. Say what you want of Blizzard I can't remember the last time their client crashed for me in OSX. The client crashes I DID see in WoW were caused by a faulty firmware on the video card keeping the fan from spinning up, causing the system to overheat and crash.

Re:Bought it, renewed and then...

[Mike610544]

When things look bad you can't just give up on the world... of Warcraft.

When Hitler rose to power there were a lot of people who just stopped playing. You know who those people were? The French! Are you French, tacarat?

Re:Bought it, renewed and then...

[DavidKlemke]

I would've reccomended Eve Online to if they hadn't killed "Ghost Training" (I.E. you can cancel your account and your last skill trains until its finished). That was the reason it kept me coming back because I could play Eve in-between new MMO releases and then train a large skill when I was playing another MMO.

But they canned it and now you have to be paying in order to train. They deny that it's a money grab but I fail to see how it isn't.

Such a shame to, I liked the game and would return to it regularly if they hadn't trashed it.

Re:Bought it, renewed and then...

[mweather]

To be fair (And I play it) you also need a reasonable stack of in-game cash to buffer yourself against potential ship losses and to acquire new ships and modules as you skill up.

True, but your friends can lend you money if you fall behind. As for client crashes, run the WoW client with Wine or Crossover and tell me how stable it is. At least CCP went to the trouble of paying Codeweavers to get the game on platforms they didn't plan to natively support.

Re:Bought it, renewed and then...

[tacarat]

? They never stopped playing. You'll find a bunch down in Goldshire ERPing. I'd have joined them except for my rigorous requirement for gender and age confirmation on Vent. I don't want to accidentally end up like those guys on Dateline's "To Pwn a Predator".

Re:Bought it, renewed and then...

[Anonymous Coward]

In Eve I did more work, organizing, and grind than it takes to become a Fortune 500 CEO, and I wasn't even the alliance leader. For 3 years my status in eve retaught me everything from calculus to twitch reflexes to accounting to tactical communications to political science to Robert's Rules of Order and consumed 8 hours a day of my life.

It takes literally years of time (not work) to get to the point that you can fly competitive ships, and years of work to get to the point that you can use them competently with competent friends.

If it wasn't fun in the interim I wouldn't have played it... but he's falling behind in WoW and you recommend Eve? And you get a +3 informative for it?

Glaring holes?

[Petersko]

"Unfortunately they spent all the time making the game look very very pretty (which, I must admit, it is), and none of it creating anything for any of the professions. There are glaring holes in most of the professions, not to mention the things that have been broken since the launch of the expansion (and let's be fair, in one case, for the last four years), and don't seem to be on the "Fix anytime soon" list."

I may regret asking, but can you elaborate on this claim? I don't see the holes, and the people I know who craft seem to be happy. My main character is an alchemist, and it's been useful throughout.

Re:Glaring holes?

[Talderas]

There are currently 4 cooking recipes missing. They are unobtainable, yet they are required for the Northrend Gourment achievement in which you need to cook 45 of the 46 Northrend recipes. Additionally, you need at least 1 of those recipes to learn 160 recipes for an achievement.

Those are some pretty glaring holes right there, considering they're prerequisites for other things.

Re:Glaring holes?

[Sylver Dragon]

I can see one hole in leatherworking, which is rather annoying. The set items which I make are usually replaced at a rate faster than they can be used.

For example, early in the new content a leatherworker can create several different leather and mail sets. In order for a character to use all of the pieces of those sets, he needs to be level 74 (Example: Iceborne Helm). By that level, you have probably already spent some time in instances and hopefully won a few gear drops, which replace those set pieces. It's quite possible to be putting together such a set, only to have a piece, which you can't even wear yet, already outclassed by something you picked up off a boss, which you can wear.

It's not that I would want to see the drops get nerfed, but it would be nice for those set items to become usable sooner. Granted, this is not a new problem to WotLK, but it is still a problem which would be nice to see addressed.

Re:Glaring holes?

[Guysmiley777]

No, those are not glaring, those are minor.

Glaring would be "there is only one recipe that gets you from 410 to 420 cooking and the mob that drops the ingredient needed for it only exists in one location in the world, one at a time".

Fretting over your achievement e-peen is minor.

Re:Glaring holes?

[morcego]

You are wrong. You need to cook 45 out of 50 recipes, 46 of which are possible to learn right now.

No, it won't be easy, specially if you need to use your cooking awards to buy spice and cook raid food, but it is entirely possible. Much more easier, I have to say, than getting the fishing one, where you need to win the weekly tournament (yeah, I've got all the coins already, as have many others).

Also, regarding cooking, those feasts you can cook now are simply wonderful, and worth every moment I spent leveling up my cooking skill. Drop a single feast and boom, all your raid is buffed. It is also worth mentioning that pretty much all the "buff foods" now give a nice (30 or 40) stamina bonus.

Re:Glaring holes?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are currently 4 cooking recipes missing. They are unobtainable, yet they are required for the Northrend Gourment achievement in which you need to cook 45 of the 46 Northrend recipes. Additionally, you need at least 1 of those recipes to learn 160 recipes for an achievement.

Those are some pretty glaring holes right there, considering they're prerequisites for other things.

lol, who the hell cooks?

Re:Glaring holes?

[Talderas]

Perhaps you should read that achievement closer, there's 46 recipes listed on there. 16 are learned from the trainer, 22 are bought via the Dalaran Cooking Awards, and 4 and random drops (the 4 emotion foods) for a total of 42 recipes.

The remaining four are Kungaloosh, Succulent Orca Stew, Fish Feast, and Shoveltusk Soup. There is currently no way to obtain those four recipes, though the end item for all but Fish Feast are obtainable as quest rewards.

Re:Glaring holes?

[ZorbaTHut]

I seem to recall that the GMs have stated that the items do in fact exist in the world, it's just that nobody has discovered where yet.

Of course, they could be wrong/lying, but they also might not be. I do remember hearing a Blizzard employee comment that there were a few quests in the world that no player had ever found.

Re:Glaring holes?

[Talderas]

GMs are pretty dumb. What GMs can do is check to see if an item exists, meaning in the database, which the recipes currently are in the item database.

Besides, a blue poster has acknowledged the issue and stated that it's being addressed in an upcoming patch, which probably means the recipes aren't obtainable right now.

Re:Glaring holes?

[bonch]

I would consider missing recipes that are required for an achievement that they put into the game to be quite glaring.

You may mock his desire for the achievement, but once you've hit 80 and discovered there's nothing else to do but sit in battleground queues or grind dungeons, you might start looking at filling out your achievements just to kill the boredom. So it sucks that Blizzard just totally forgot their own recipes.

Re:Glaring holes?

[bonch]

Missing profession recipes, crafted PvP sets for certain specs while ignoring others, weird itemization (holy paladin set has little intellect and has strength on it)...it's a mess.

Re:Glaring holes?

[Dogtanian]

There are currently 4 cooking recipes missing. They are unobtainable, yet they are required for the Northrend Gourment achievement in which you need to cook 45 of the 46 Northrend recipes.

WTF? Cooking? Achievements? I've never played a MMORPG, but this makes it sound like an online version of the Boy Scouts. Do I get a badge I can sew onto my scarf for this stuff?!

Re:Glaring holes?

[Talderas]

In this case it's an achievement that gives you a reward that you can show case. Granted it's just a title, but it's still a reward.\

For example, the Frostbitten achievement requires you to kill all 23 rare monsters in Northrend. There's no reward for doing so other than achievement points. It's not really worth wasting the time actively pursuing it. Some achievements give you mounts, some give titles, and others give you tabards. These are all things that you can show case, like any of the reward items that are bought utilizing the UDE points from the trading card game.

Re:Glaring holes?

[Opportunist]

Excuse me, but this is at best "glaring" for someone who has never played an MMO that has really glaring omissions and defects. Like, say, Vanguard, where crafting is in total a joke. Hard to do, hard to level, and utterly pointless because even the worst drop from a trash mob blows anything you can craft with the rarest of resources out of the water.

THAT is glaring, ok?

Re:Glaring holes?

[Anonymous Coward]

No one complained when all the achievements were released and most of them were from Northrend. Why would you complain now? The same thing is going on with people complaining that the PvE endgame is too short/easy.

The game is not complete. There will likely be at least 4 major content patches between now and the next expansion. That's plenty of time for those four cooking recipes and more raids to be introduced. Just because you can't have them now, now, now is no reason to complain.

Re:Glaring holes?

[NormalVisual]

In this case it's an achievement that gives you a reward that you can show case. Granted it's just a title, but it's still a reward.

As one of (I think) only two Saltys on my server, I'm pretty sure I understand where you're coming from. :-)

Re:Glaring holes?

[NormalVisual]

Much more easier, I have to say, than getting the fishing one, where you need to win the weekly tournament (yeah, I've got all the coins already, as have many others).

The hardest part for me was getting the Magical Crawdad - Mr. Pinchy is a fairly rare drop to begin with, and on my server there is almost always a fair bit of pressure on the schools where he drops. Winning the Stranglethorn tourney wasn't particularly difficult for me, but that was before there were a bunch of 80s running in groups ganking everyone else in sight every Sunday afternoon.

Re:Glaring holes?

[Qetu]

Sorry, but Kungaloosh is learned from a quest. I don't know about the others.

Re:Glaring holes?

[SkunkPussy]

yes!

Re:Glaring holes?

[Talderas]

All I need for my Salty is to catch one of those 12 heavy weight fish. It's probably going to match Ironjaw with regards to annoyance. Old Crafty was simple if you're horde, there was a weird glitch that came about with catching Old Crafty and the fishing daily to catch a baby crocolisk. For some reason, when you are on that quest the drop rate for Old Crafty is ridiculously high. I think it has something to do with the fishing daily increasing the drop chances of rare fish while you're on it. Hmmm, I should actually use that to try to catch one of the heavy weight fish and the sewer rat.

Re:Glaring holes?

[Talderas]

Either the latest patch got the recipe added back to the quest, or you haven't actually done that quest, or you did the quest in the beta. A large number of people have completed that quest and did not receive the recipe. Blizzard is aware of this and has acknowledged the problem and are considering how to fix it.

Re:Glaring holes?

[NormalVisual]

Fortunately, the heavy fish can be done while you're watching TV or something else. I'm Horde, so I parked myself at Stonebull Lake in Mulgore and fished 'till I caught a 15-pound Mud Snapper - it's not a busy area, and no chance of being ganked. Alliance fisherman can do the same at Crystal Lake in Elwynn Forest.

I haven't caught Ironjaw yet, but it's still fun to infiltrate Ironforge in the attempt. :-) Last time I went, I was there for more than two hours before I got beat up by an overzealous priest. I'll try it again next time I get the crocolisk quest to see if it makes a difference - thanks for the tip.

Re:Glaring holes?

[Talderas]

Here's a bit of advice, Ironjaw is catchable from the lava in Ironforge. A lot of horde like to use the Forlorn Cavern since if you sit in the back of it and /sleep while fishing, you're hard to see. I recommend fishing in the Great Forge, even though that's right next to the alliance flight point. If you jump in the northern pit of lava and swim between the wall and the big wheel you can find an invisible wall that you can jump up on that will allow you to fish. The advantages of this is that you're practically invisible to the alliance, the only way they can see you is from top down, from a very slender viewing angle in front of you, or someone has track humanoid on while in Ironforge. Even so, you can't jump out of the lava pit, so only ranged characters can even endeavor to attack you unless they're willing to jump in and hearth out.

Re:Glaring holes?

[geekoid]

"Fortunately, the heavy fish can be done while you're watching TV or something else. "

And you pay for that 'privilege', do ya?

Re:Glaring holes?

[brkello]

So maybe you should work on another achievement rather than complaining about it on Slashdot? Of all the things to complain about, this has to be the most ridiculous I have ever read.

What is the attraction?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a non-fan, can I ask WoW fans: what is the attraction? Why do you spend all those hours playing it?

Genuine question BTW.

Re:What is the attraction?

[illeism]

Why does anyone do anything for hours on end...

because they enjoy it... simple answer

Re:What is the attraction?

[Anonymous Coward]

agreed. why pay monthly to do the same quests over and over again? why not read a book or get some exercise.

Re:What is the attraction?

[Sylver Dragon]

Do read fiction, watch movies or TV?
If the answer to any of those questions is 'yes', turn the question you asked back around on yourself and find the answer, once you do, you will hopefully understand why I sink several hours a week into WoW.

All entertainment is escapism. You can sit here and pontificate about the "benefits" of your chosen version of it, but in the end it's just escapism. Your version may be escaping into a fake story written on paper, or a fake story played out for you by actors in front of a camera. You might even find your escape from the world in playing a musical instrument. But, unless you are making a living at it, it is still just escapism.

For some reason humans seem to have a need to break away for a while and play. To let their mind relax and just do something because they enjoy doing it. Doing so is beneficial in a lot of ways. What each of us find relaxing and enjoyable varies from person to person, and trying to explain why I like something is about as useful as trying to nail jello to a wall.

I enjoy exploring the world, reading the stories and the social interaction. Why? Fuck me if I know, it's just what I like. Same reason I like blue, I guess.

Re:What is the attraction?

[skrolle2]

If I weren't playing WoW, I'd simply be playing some other computer game, it's just that WoW is a really, really good game.

I've played a lot of RPGs over the years, and WoW is actually better than most single-player ones, and is a MMO on top of that.

I stopped playing over a year ago, but returned now for the expansion. Really, really worth it. Will see how long I'll keep on playing this time. :)

Re:What is the attraction?

[mweather]

Yep, that's why I'm at work.

Re:What is the attraction?

[beef curtains]

Why watch TV? Why go to movies? Why read books? Why build model cars? Why knit scarves?

I understand your question, and don't sense any hostility or sarcasm, so please know that I'm not trying to attack you or anything :)

What I'm trying to say is that, like any other time-pass or hobby, it's something to do that's entertaining/engaging. I myself play WoW very casually (a couple hours at a time, a few times a week) during time that would otherwise be spent watching reruns, playing Bejeweled, and other brainless "downtime" activities.

A vast majority of people who play MMOs like WoW don't actually play for hours & hours on end...instead, they treat their online games the way others treat playing their Xbox, or playing solitaire, or watching reruns on TV: something entertaining to do between keeping up with responsibilities & relationships.

If you think of WoW less like shooting heroin and more like drinking beer, it becomes more understandable: WoW is not an addictive life-destroyer, it's just a pleasurable activity that most do in moderation. A very small minority, however, go overboard & let it destroy their lives.

Re:What is the attraction?

[Locke2005]

Well, it is essentially mental masturbation, but it is done in a 3D rendered environment that is absolutely gorgeous! (Flying place to place on a griffen was actually fun.) "Playing" WoW is actually a lot of work; there is so much to learn. I guess it operates on the same principle as fraternities -- it's so difficult to get through being a pledge or to get to a high level, that people mentally assign a very high value to being part of it in order to justify the effort they have already expended. So whereas I would recommend it for kids with too much time on their hands or people trapped in a hospital or other institution because it does provide the illusion of actually having accomplished something, I would not recommended it for people who have jobs and kids of their own to support, as they almost certainly have more important things to do with their time. Full disclosure -- I've only played a free 10-day trial of WoW before giving it up, but my 7-year old daughter really enjoyed creating new characters. Also, although the penalty for dying is very small (mostly costs you time to run from graveyard back to where you died), it still stings when you get killed, and can leave me depressed for the rest of the day.

Re:What is the attraction?

[ivan256]

The longevity of the game is almost purely social (or in some people's cases anti-social).

It's like hanging out in the same diner with your friends every night. If you just do the same quests over and over, you get bored and quit the game. The people who are "addicted", though, aren't usually sticking around for the grind. They're just there for the convenient forum for socialization without having to leave their house.

If it's not for you, it's not for you. But people have a wide variety of tastes. Personally, I do read books and get exercise. I also play WoW. They're not mutually exclusive. WoW simply consumes all the time that I used to spend watching TV, going to movies, and to some extent playing other videogames.

Re:What is the attraction?

[orclevegam]

Mostly the social aspect of it. It's one of the few leisure activities you can do from home, at almost any time, in which you're part of a group working towards a common goal. In many ways it's the same reason people play team sports, but with the advantage you can more easily fit it around your downtime. Got nothing to do for the next 3 hours between getting off work, and when your wife/husband gets home? Hop on WOW and run a dungeon for a hour or so.

The only time the game requires more than a couple hours of time or specific timing is in the more hardcore raiding guilds, where you need to be online at a particular time in order to be part of the group that's going to be spending the next 3 to 6 hours in some raid dungeon.

Re:What is the attraction?

[beef curtains]

So whereas I would recommend it for kids with too much time on their hands or people trapped in a hospital or other institution because it does provide the illusion of actually having accomplished something, I would not recommended it for people who have jobs and kids of their own to support, as they almost certainly have more important things to do with their time.

I'm curious to know, what do you consider to be "appropriate" way for the non-institutionalized and those with jobs/lives/responsibilities to let off some steam, relax a bit, or entertain themselves? Or do parents/working folk not deserve any form of "me time" to get their head together & rest up after the stresses of parenting/jobs? Is the concept that people need downtime a bunch of hippie crap?

Also, although the penalty for dying is very small (mostly costs you time to run from graveyard back to where you died), it still stings when you get killed, and can leave me depressed for the rest of the day.

If this is actually true, and not just hyperbole, then it is indeed a good idea that you opted not to continue playing WoW (or any other video game). In games like this, death happens (quite often, when you're first learning the ropes). If you find yourself taking your player's death that personally or feeling that affected by it, then I would advise against playing them. IANA mental health professional, just my two cents.

Re:What is the attraction?

[Puffy Director Pants]

Why does Kasey Kahne and the Budweiser racing team get up at 4am on a Sunday? Why does he wear a fire suit in 100 degree heat? And why is he willing to squeeze this car into that tiny space?

Why do we do all this? So we can all get together for a cold bud.

Ok, so maybe you haven't seen that commercial, but it's a quite applicable demonstration, that people do things for the enjoyment they get out of it. It may be social. It may amount to nothing more than a cold drink, but it's what people want to do, and who are you to say otherwise? Why do you even have to ask? Do you not have the ability to comprehend the value of entertainment?

Re:What is the attraction?

[bonch]

A lot of them get addicted to the social aspect. It's the MySpace of MMOs. The playerbase itself, in-game especially, is incredibly stupid and immature. Expect tired 4chan references and Chuck Norris jokes.

The game itself is completely mindless and nearly devoid of any real game design. You run up to yellow exclamation marks that tell you to run a short distance, kill 10 of something, and come back to get the next exclamation point.

I remember starting the game last year and being amazed that this was the #1 online game that I had been hearing so much hype over. I played the Warcraft RTS games, and I started an orc warrior expecting to do cool things for the Horde in their fight against the Alliance. Instead I was killing boars. Then killing scorpions. Then killing imps. Then killing centaurs. Then killing pig-men. And it never ended until I unsubscribed. It sure never felt like Warcraft to me.

I think there's a gambling addiction aspect to it as well. People run dungeons hoping for a chance of some special piece of gear to drop. Did I mention that, by the way? When you're done grinding all the yellow exclamation points, the rest of your time in the game is about mindlessly grinding for pieces of virtual gear. That's it. You don't do anything else, because there's nothing else to do. You just play to get gear in order to make it easier to get more gear.

Re:What is the attraction?

[Locke2005]

Yes, downtime is important. But for myself, I prefer my downtime to be a little less like work (the same reason I don't play bridge; it requires too much thinking). While it may be possible for some people to just wander around and talk to other people, I'm much too results oriented, and am driven to learn as much as I can about the character class I'm playing, try to optimize the order of quest completion, constantly upgrade my equipment, and level grind. I've even been known to criticize my daughter for not taking her current quest seriously. (I helped my daughter's Warlock get an imp. It told her "Give me a break!" so she took it swimming in the river, because it obviously needed a break!) Other people may be able to play without taking it so seriously. I do believe games that have a social aspect are much better than to single-player vs. computer games (e.g. most of the entertainment value in Runescape comes from talking to the other players). If you believe playing WoW has value for you, then by all means do so... but don't kid yourself that you're actually accomplishing anything.

Re:What is the attraction?

[Ihmhi]

It's like Myspace, except you can ride a dragon and shoot a fireball up someone's arse.

Re:What is the attraction?

[vux984]

I've played a lot of RPGs over the years, and WoW is actually better than most single-player ones, and is a MMO on top of that.

I hope so. If you've been playing since it it started, you've sunk about $700 into it so far. If I paid $700 for a single player game, my expectations would be pretty damned high.

And for me, that's where WoW doesn't deliver. Its good... but I don't find it THAT good.
I prefer variety, and $700 bucks buys a lot of games, especially if you shop smart.

Re:What is the attraction?

[Opportunist]

WoW appeals on many level to some human instincts and interests. First of all, the sense of accomplishment it gives. You've "done something". The world is persistant, so the time you spent is not lost, it's invested. Into getting a better character. It's not permanent, and I shudder at the thought that Blizzard might one day shut down the servers and 10 million people start realizing that all they "invested" went down the crapper. I guess the suicide statistics of that year are going to show a significant change.

Then there's the hunter and gatherer aspect. You get something for doing something. More important, you get immediate feedback and immediate reward. You kill some mob, he drops something that you may pick up. Sometimes that something is even useful. If not, it's good for a bit of money. That's rare in our world today. Usually, you get any reward for work long after you have accomplished something, or you don't really "see" your reward because it's just transfered to your bank account. It's not immediately coupled with the "work" you invested. It's also, as odd as it may sound, less tangible. Few of us are still in a business where we get to see what we make. Handcraft, where you actually build something with your own hands from start to finish, is nearly extinct. If you are in manufacturing at all, you only get to see a tiny part of the whole process, completely separated from the product you make.

Then there is the social aspect, where you accomplish something as a team. Again, you get to see the rewards for your team effort immediately, not as a paycheck some time later. You get to see the dead boss you just killed, you get to take your rewards right from his dead body. This also leads to the sense that you cannot let your "friends" down, that they rely on you to be there for the next raid because they need you. This in turn gives you the warm, fuzzy feeling of being loved. Or at least needed. And people generally like it when they feel useful.

This all together doesn't explain WoW yet. That's something you find in every MMO.

WoW had two things that worked in their favor. First, the game was "done" when it came out, unlike many other MMOs. You could actually play it. Skills worked (mostly), quests worked, CTDs were the exeption instead of the rule and endgame content existed. It wasn't really much, but it was there. The game was actually ready for a release.

More important, they had a stable IP to build on. Warcraft was a brand that gamers knew. Especially hardcore, dedicated gamers. It was RTS, granted, it was a different genre, but people knew what to think of it, and it had a quite dense story to build on. There were many familiar faces and a solid story archive to draw from, there was a quite sizable fanbase to build on.

It also managed to cater to casual and hardcore gamers alike. It was casual friendly enough to attract people who wouldn't have touched things like Everquest with a ten foot pole, knowing they could never "really" play it and hardcore enough to give those that want to be "on top" something to reach for. You could actually be "the best". And they managed to keep the influx rate of new content fast enough to keep people from sitting back and relaxing after having "done" everything.

I guess that's the reason behind the success and why so many people play it.

Re:What is the attraction?

[Rakarra]

Why does Kasey Kahne and the Budweiser racing team get up at 4am on a Sunday? Why does he wear a fire suit in 100 degree heat? And why is he willing to squeeze this car into that tiny space?

Probably because he gets paid a lot of money for it. ;)

Re:What is the attraction?

[Dread_ed]

I do not enjoy television. I find it ironic to sit and watch TV with real people in the room with me.

When I play WoW (or other MMO Games) I guess it is like being in the TV show and talking to other real people experiencing it with me. However, unlike passively receiving television images, there is planning, cooperation, and coordination required to do some things in the game. Sometimes this takes up to 40 people playing their parts with precision and intelligence to accomplish. Somehow, I find this endlessly more entertaining than watching sitcoms.

Most importantly there is the social aspect. I choose who I play with and when. Like attracts like I guess, and because of that our group of players are friends. Even though I have never met many of these people in person, I know that if I needed a place to crash in their hometown I wouldn't have to ask. We hang out two or three nights a week for 1-3 hours each and play the game, talk shop, make jokes, etc. It's like a party with 25 people where you only have to clean up after yourself and you never leave your computer desk.

There probably are some other reasons. I enjoy games in general. You could say I am a computer game enthusiast. From Pong to text based adventures and Doom and all its subsidiaries I have played games. However, the complexity of MMO games lends itself to constant tweaking and cogitation that FPS shooters do not. It is multidimensional in that you rely not only on your reflexes and reactions, but also on your preparation, clarity of thought, and experience.

Thats about it I guess. I hope that gives you a little glimpse of why I enjoy it.

Re:What is the attraction?

[skrolle2]

Well, three months subscription of it equals the price of a single game, and I can't think of any recent game that got me three months of good gameplay. For me, it really does deliver bang for the buck.

Also, I hate having a running subscription, I always cancel it, so that each time my time runs out, I have to make the actual decision to continue paying for it. That makes it a helluva lot easier to quit, if you don't care that your paid time is up, then it's probably a good time to leave.

Re:What is the attraction?

[ChaoticCoyote]

When you're done grinding all the yellow exclamation points, the rest of your time in the game is about mindlessly grinding for pieces of virtual gear. That's it. You don't do anything else, because there's nothing else to do. You just play to get gear in order to make it easier to get more gear.

Odd... most of the people in my guild run dungeons for the comraderie; loot is nice, but I like spending time with my guildies. Games like WoW are boring as hell if you operate as a lone wolf. Find a good guild, and make some friends. Our guild has multiple couples in it, mostly 20-soemthing, but a few of us in our 40s and 50s. We have lots of women, military folk, and hard-core gamers like me. For people like my wife, who has limited mobility, games like WoW are a god-send. MMOs are a social network where you play together with friends. Good stuff.

Horrible....customer service...on WOTLK

[Anonymous Coward]

...so I had a wow-account, at the worldofwarcraft.com site.
...so I played it in 2006, the original, paid for it too.
...so I got a mail from Blizzard to engage in the trial of WOTLK.
...so I entered, and decided I liked the game...

Tried buying it online, but that wasn't possible : I am from Europe. Although it was possible to buy a subscription through PayPal online...

Tried mailing customer service: sent me back 6 (no kidding...) standard replies concerning the fact that I can't play WoW from Europe on US servers - even the fact that I bought the game and played it in the past on the US server was not helping.

So I took my stuff and evacuated to a private server. Blizzard has horrible customer service, and they are going to lose customers over it (or are already experiencing that fact...).

Re:Horrible....customer service...on WOTLK

[X0563511]

the fact that I can't play WoW from Europe on US servers

Wow, what internet is Blizzard using? I don't think it's the same one we have all learned to love.

Re:Horrible....customer service...on WOTLK

[Anonymous Coward]

There are sites that fill this gap, you can buy us or eu versions online from them and play from where ever you want. Blizzard itself however will not sell you a version from another region than the one you are in. Yes it is stupid but I imagine they are trying to reduce the amount of international traffic generated.

Re:Horrible....customer service...on WOTLK

[Puffy Director Pants]

It's a business issue, not a technical one. Sure, you will get more latency playing across the ocean, but you can do it. However, for them, the billing issues are far more complex than it's worth.

There are ways around it, I know people who for some reason were in the US, but started off playing on EU servers before switching back to a US one. Nothing strange about Blizzard not helping here, it's not a common issue, or one where they want to encourage such transactions. If you want to do it, you're on your own.

Re:Horrible....customer service...on WOTLK

[archammer2]

I can't play WoW from Europe on US servers

Umm... Ya sure about that? My buddy in the UK isn't having any problems.

Re:Horrible....customer service...on WOTLK

[Rakarra]

It's not the network, it's that they don't sell US versions to Europeans. Of course, Europeans can purchase the boxed game from a US source and play on US servers that way, though I'm not sure why you'd want to. You'd be shifted 8-12-hours off from all your friends, server maintenance periods would actually cut into your prime-time, etc..

My thoughts...

[CFBMoo1]

The game world outside of dungeons is awesome. There's all kinds of quests and activities to get lost in messing around with. I had a goal when this came out and that was to do every quest I could find for the expansion outside of dungeons in the new zones.

After reaching that goal I realize that the dungeons themselves are too simplistic for my taste. Honestly I loved the long quest lines involved with going in and out of old dungeons like BRD, UBRS, etc. Now they feel more like a 5 minute ride at the amusement park. Just not fun anymore.

So yeah, the game world itself in the new continent is really well put together. The dungeons feel not really as involving as the older ones were, almost unfinished because when I'm done with a run I'm like, "That's it???"

Re:My thoughts...

[MetalPhalanx]

You must have been a part of the focus group that decided that BRD being a 6 hour instance was a good thing. j/k :P

Seriously though, I know what you mean, the instances really do seem short. Most of us find that refreshing though. Although it'd be nice to have some longer ones, at least this way if you get stuck with a dud PUG, you're not in it for a painfully long time.

Re:My thoughts...

[Hoi Polloi]

I'm impressed by the way Northrend captures the feel of real environments I've visited, like Iceland for example. The sharp drop offs into the water, the narrow beaches, tundra, hydrothermal pools (complete with mineral deposits), the fields transitioning into snow fields, etc. The only thing I haven't seen yet is realistic glacial terrain (moraines, rock fields, crevasses, etc) but then again I haven't seen all of Northrend yet.

I appreciate the short instances. I agree that you lose something like the elaborate instances like BRD or even Scholomance but at least you can do a run in the evening without having to abandon your family or sleep. I think short instances are a necessary evil for those of us who don't have unlimited time to spare.

Re:My thoughts...

[Rakarra]

You must have been a part of the focus group that decided that BRD being a 6 hour instance was a good thing. j/k :P

I would have been. I think BRD is still my favorite instance in the game! From the artwork to the scope to... well, just about everything else. There was so much to do there, optional bosses, actual exploration... I liked the idea of actually being able to get lost in a dungeon. Now all the dungeons are a single line from beginning to end with no paths leading off. Was there too much to do in one setting in the old dungeons? Usually, yes. But it just wouldn't have had the same "feel" if you broke it up into multiple instances.

I love WoW, I play hours a day. But I definitely prefer the design of the old launch-time dungeons.

Re:My thoughts...

[Nakanai_de]

Now all the dungeons are a single line from beginning to end with no paths leading off.

Counterexamples: The Nexus, Gundrak (it has two entrances and a side path with an optional boss on heroic), Violet Hold and the Occulus (both would be more accurately described as rooms, not lines), Old Kingdom of Ahn'kahet (has a side branch with an optional boss on heroic) In short, you are wrong.

D.E.H.T.A.

[weave]

What, you haven't done D.E.H.T.A's little P.I.T.A quests yet?

Loads of fun. You get to kill Nessingwary's people (that you used to pal around with) who are killing rhinos, and then down the road you end up having to kill the rhinos for Fizzcrank's quests!

It's all about the gold!

Re:D.E.H.T.A.

[Hoi Polloi]

But you get the quest to save the innocent little baby mammoths from the traps! Awwww, they are sooo cute.

Re:D.E.H.T.A.

[Opportunist]

It's always about the gold. Give the player a chance to make a decision. One being "moral" one, with little reward, while the other one being "immoral" with greater reward and watch how people decide. Most, if not all, will go for the latter choice. That doesn't make them immoral people. It's a game. Nobody gets hurt and if they have to eat babies to make progress, people will suck their little brains out. People are usually aware that they're playing a game, that it's a bunch of pixles they "abuse" and they wouldn't do the same in reality.

That's the difference between computer game players and managers of international companies.

Re:D.E.H.T.A.

[ArsonSmith]

Might be interesting if they made the game where you could stick to the moral side with little improvement until the end where the game gives you some kind of divine favor, or the immoral ground where you gain in power quickly but have a good chance of being knocked off or hated/hunted by other factions.

Re:D.E.H.T.A.

[Opportunist]

Nope. Someone will do it, write a guide about it and people will choose the path that will eventually give them more reward. If that's the "good" side, even if they get little along the way but a big boon at the end, they'll be good. Not because they want to be good, but because of the bigger reward.

Re:D.E.H.T.A.

[adavies42]

i felt horrible about whoring myself out to a bunch of ecoterrorists...until i got to go whale hunting for the murlocs :)

Re:D.E.H.T.A.

[mewshi_nya]

An IRC buddy of mine was surfing Amazon and discovered the most disturbing thing.

You know how toward the bottom of the pages for items, it says "Those who bought this product also bought...?"

Yeah, my friend was looking at sex toys (for guys) and noticed that "Wrath of the Lich King" was #6 on the list...

Re:D.E.H.T.A.

[Killjoy_NL]

Last night I did an escort quest for a bunny
a FRIKKIN LVL 68 BUNNY called Mr. Floppy :/

Re:D.E.H.T.A.

[soddit]

"friend" you say.

Re:D.E.H.T.A.

[Anonymous Coward]

You forget the main rational for doing good isn't some greater reward or pay off, it's because it's the right thing to do.

The harder, not as rewarding often not as cool thing, but still the thing that will let you sleep at night knowing you did the right thing.

Re:D.E.H.T.A.

[MikeDirnt69]

"(for guys)" you say.

Re:D.E.H.T.A.

[WyrdOne]

Ahh yes, the bunny & girl escort quest.

"Hey little girl, there is a frikken road RIGHT OVER THERE WHERE THERE ARE NOT WOLVES and BEARS!"

Sometimes they put quest npc's in dumb locations.

Wyrdone - Shadowsong-US, Alliance.

Re:D.E.H.T.A.

[ArsonSmith]

yea, yea. Evil will always triumph over good. Because good is dumb.

Re:D.E.H.T.A.

[Dutch Gun]

It's always about the gold. Give the player a chance to make a decision. One being "moral" one, with little reward, while the other one being "immoral" with greater reward and watch how people decide. Most, if not all, will go for the latter choice. That doesn't make them immoral people. It's a game. Nobody gets hurt and if they have to eat babies to make progress, people will suck their little brains out. People are usually aware that they're playing a game, that it's a bunch of pixles they "abuse" and they wouldn't do the same in reality.

You think so? In the KOTOR games, I always ended up feeling sorry for those I abuse when trying to play an evil character. So, no, I'll almost always choose a heroic persona in nearly any game, because those are the types of characters I enjoy playing. Yes, I'm well aware that they're just pixels and AI routines (I'm a game developer, after all), but if I view them that way, then I'm probably not immersed enough in the game, and therefore probably aren't enjoying it anyhow. There are also some people who will choose armor for the look rather than picking a less-attractive set of slightly more powerful stats. Or choose a more perilous path in order to properly stay in character.

Sometimes I feel a little bad for obsessive min/maxers. It seems more like they're playing an interactive spreadsheet instead of having fun and losing themselves in a game. But hey, if that's how they want to play, that's up to them. I know that there are plenty of players like that out there. But don't assume everyone thinks the same way.

Re:D.E.H.T.A.

[brkello]

I grouped up for that quests. We were yelling about how Mr. Floppy must survive, etc. It was pretty amusing...in a dorky sort of way. My girl friend didn't find it quite as amusing as I did.

Re:D.E.H.T.A.

[Snaller]

"nd they wouldn't do the same in reality."

Except they would.

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

>As we discussed previously, the current raids have been conquered already, but unless you're willing to devote many, many hours to playing the game, reaching the end of the content before more is released won't be an issue for you.

I beg to differ. My guild is made up of full time job workers, who took time to level up to 80 instead of just staying on 24x7. We set up an appropriate time to do our first raid based on when 25 people would have reached 80...and we're done with everything in the game at this point.

While I agree the expansion has some fantastic art (as always with Blizzard) and various interesting game mechanics much as you describe here, for my group of friends who consider themselves middle-of-the-road in terms of how "hardcore" we are, this expansion is far FAR too easy.

(By "done" I mean we have killed all 25 man and 10 man instances - we did not have time to get around to a second run on Sarth in the more difficult mode, because last week was the first week we raided). We've also killed all the city world bosses. So now there is nothing new for us to do in the game, already. It's very disappointing.

Re:Anonymous Coward

[irix]

this expansion is far FAR too easy.

Sure, it didn't take my guild much more than a week (we're "casual" too ... ~12hrs of raids for us) of raiding to clear the current content either. Well, besides Sarth with 3 drakes, but I bet you'll find that a challenge too.

If you really did raid in TBC I suspect you're talking out your ass though. We just got through 6 months of Sunwell, and honestly the break is nice. We get to enjoy some entertaining and pretty easy content for a few months and get everyone a full set of T7 gear plus offspecs, etc. If you're in a mood for some challenge try 3-drakes Sarth, 5-minute Malygos, etc.

I suspect Uldular and the two raid instances that follow it will be harder. I have high hopes. If we're here in four or five months facerolling through Uldular like we did through Naxx25 then I'll be disappointed, but in the meantime I think you've drawn your conclusions about WLK raid content too early.

Re:Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

My main is level 76 right now, which is about middle-of-the-road for my guild. I don't play every day, and sometimes only for a couple of hours. I represent a majority of the WoW player base.

Face it, while you may not be the #1 guild in the country, you and your friends do indeed poop in socks.

Only one thing to say...

[GerardAtJob]

... WAAAaaaaaaaaGHHH!!!!! :P

Re:Only one thing to say...

[Skafian]

Wrong game? There's no Dakka here.

Re:Only one thing to say...

[GerardAtJob]

It's not offtopic! It's a competitor! Personnaly I can't talk about Toyota without comparing to Dodge or Nissan... ;) They ripped every thing from WAR... and I'm offtopic? (Sry I feel flamebait today)

ending the grind is easy!!

[Weezul]

Kill other players! Ain't no other way baby.!

Re:ending the grind is easy!!

[genner]

Kill other players! Ain't no other way baby.!

And gain experince by doing so.....oh wait Warhammer does that not WOW.

Re:ending the grind is easy!!

[ivan256]

There are plenty of PvP activities for level 71-80 players in Wrath that grant experience now.

Re:ending the grind is easy!!

[Rakarra]

Back when I pvped, I crated my way from level 57 to 60 doing nothing but pvp..

Go Murlocs!

[Joe the Lesser]

Murlocs are great!

Play the RPG!

Im an insatiable bastard, and even i have to admit

[unity100]

it IS fun.

they really removed the grind shit from the game. they made quests easy, but MANY. quests are so well devised and written in many story backgrounds that merge in a big backdrop. they just make you continue, follow the questline and see more and more. its like an interactive movie in which you can modify your own character and do things your way. but the difference is, there is nothing stopping you from watching this movie undisrupted -> no 'extreme tough' quests that you will need to set up a full fledged group, no annoying long grind quest that will take your attention from the story going on etc.

design ? visuals ? breathtaking.

they have apparently noticed that you dont need to lower yourself down to 'scratch, crappy, punk-cartoonish drawings' level because you dont want to put forth a humongous graphics card requirement -> they went the art route, and designed and made the environments so artful, so pictoresque that you foten stop by to look around. i even loitered around the river that is in between howling fjord and winterspring zones -> considering im half powergamer, it is a feat that a game environment made me do that. another pointer is, the fact that this time i care about the zone names, their geography and remember them -> previously i didnt give a crap, just another zone to go by, i would say.

it is clearly a labor of love. these people sat down and apparently wrote a complete novel for this expansion. wintergrasp is just one of the many zones, and wyrmrest dragon temple and its quests/story is just 1/4th of that zone, but even wyrmrest temple has as many story, action, quests as 2 burning crusade zones combined. vanilla wow ? dipshit, compared to WotLK. tbc now looks like a long torture in distant past.

i've been playing wow for its pvp system for a long time. it has unmatched 40 vs 40 battlegrounds that take only 3 seconds to get in and hop into action. i didnt care about rest of the game, because story was lacking for my taste. but now, im actually going to embark on the instancing/raiding thing, because apparently it HAS become fun this time. hell, azjul-nerub instance, which is an instance you merely pass while leveling from 70 to 80 at level 73, stupefied me. i cant even tell about how it is, it is that out of the ordinary. huge vertical caverns woven by spider webs, giant spiders of various types, stuff going on around you without your intervention or participation -> it feels not only alive but stupefying.

yes. this shit IS good this time. so that even trolls have shut their mouths up in wow forums, and the ones that are there are complaining about its and bits only, like 'vanilla wow content is abandoned now' -> which noone gives a damn about.

get it. play it. its good. even if wow had annoyed you with its shitty story (compared to my kotor taste) and in the huge grind torture in the past 3 years, this expansion will totally redeem all of that, and give lots of smooth flowing gaming fun.

Re:you must have consused slashdot with livejourna

[Anonymous Coward]

You must have confused 'consused' with 'confused'. Learn to spell, troll.

Same old

[Alarindris]

I've been playing for 3 years now, and it's still basically the same deal. Grind to 80 and then raid.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but it's still just a content patch. Sure, new spells, some of the stats and mechanics are different, but it's still the same game. Also, for those saying 'I played wow for a day and it's a big grind', you're missing the whole point of the game. It's meant to be a SOCIAL game. Get to 80 and join a guild, raid for a while, and you'll see what the game is intended to be. The teamwork aspect is pretty cool.

I give WoW 10/10, WotLK 7/10.

Next Release preview already!

[Squeeonline]

Review of the next release or WoW. Cant wait!!! http://www.theonion.com/content/video/warcraft_sequel_lets_gamers_play

Or just wait it out if you like to PvP...

[HerculesMO]

Darkfall Online will be released January 22nd :)

I couldn't keep up with WOW, too much treadmill stuff, too much time investment to raid, etc... it was fun, I just didn't have the time and besides -- being without a good guild meant I never got the good stuff in raids because it was hard to raid over and over. And getting in good guilds is hard as it is.

PvP for me, Darkfall hopefully will address that. I can pick it up, play, and turn it off. I know it can get more detailed but from what I've read, I don't *have* to be involved to enjoy it, since there's no uber magic lewt that I have to 'raid' for to get. :)

Re:Im an insatiable bastard, and even i have to ad

[Anonymous Coward]

considering im half powergamer

Is that some sort of "uber-geek, made up from the parts of lesser geeks?"

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

If you play the game long enough you'll see some detractors.

Specifically, grinds are not gone. Profession-maxing is harder than ever, and in a few cases you must grind daily quests to get tokens to buy recipes; rather than just learn them or buy them from vendors, you are limited by time AND how much you play.

They also simplified a few faction grinds, but several factions are not grindable (still have to grind 80/heroic instances to gain reputation with them anyway), and one in particular, the Sons of Hodir which give you your new shoulder enchants, are another time-intensive daily grind that takes about a month to cap.

They also introduced a lot of ridiculous gold sinks that weren't necessary given the difficulty of leveling professions and the new benefits associated with crafting skills. There were already dozens of mounts to buy and lots of alts to fund.

While the content itself is very good (far more cohesive and well-executed than the last expansion or even the original game), and the new phasing system is outstanding, the direction of the game is still catering to casuals while offering achievements (think xbox 360) to placate "hardcore" players. While you do spend less time raiding, you don't spend any less time grinding dailies and instances outside of that. Wintergrasp (the new world PvP zone) must be frequently attended-to, which is another big timesink.

It's not quite accurate to say WotLK is a more casual version of WoW; it's more that the game is just much easier. Casual players must still put in the same number of hours as the formerly hardcore raiders in order to get their reputations and gear up to par.

It's also worth noting that the only large raid instance in the expansion was completely re-used from the original WoW; even the tier 7 pieces are slightly remodeled tier 3. The raid content is very disappointing (speaking as someone who's beaten "hard-mode" Sartharion), but the out-of-raid content, daily grinds and faction grinds aside, is outstanding.

Music

[Khomar]

I was kind of surprised that there was no mention of the soundtrack for the expansion. From what I have heard, it is absolutely amazing and really adds to the feel of the various zones.

Here are a couple examples:

Totems of the Grizzlemaw

Arthas, My Son

Re:Music

[cptgrudge]

I second this. The soundtrack is fantastic.

Re:Music

[SydShamino]

The Grizzly Hills music is fantastic. Every time I pass through, I start thinking I'm flying around in a Ken Burns Civil War documentary...

Re:Music

[megamerican]

Every time I pass through, I start thinking I'm flying around in a Ken Burns Civil War documentary

For good reason. The Furbolgs are going through a Civil War!

Re:Music

[McFadden]

Glad you brought that one up. I was just about to make an identical comment. I seem to remember I was on a flightpath into Grizzly Hills for the first time (normally a chance to run off and grab a quick drink) and I heard the music start up and actually walked back from the kitchen and sat there listening to it. It's genuinely beautiful. I went onto a couple of forums later to see what I could find out about it, and I was surprised by the number of other people who made almost the same comment. Grizzly Hills seems a real favorite on the soundtrack.

Re:Music

[Fozzyuw]

I completely agree! I love Grizzly Hills and Howling Fjord. Seriously, this is as polished as you can get in an MMO. Perfect? No, it's too complex and has far too many people (aka, queue lines) but it's really an excellent experiance when compared to other past (and current) MMO games.

glaring ambiguity in your post

[unity100]

what are the 'glaring holes' in professions ? holes for what ?

the fact that there are now scrolls that enchanters can scribe their enchants into and just put them on ah, instead of peddling their service from trade channel like monkeys and going around trying to enchant people ?

or the fact that gems now actually make considerable difference ?

what ?

Re:glaring ambiguity in your post

[uigrad_2000]

what are the 'glaring holes' in professions ? holes for what ?

Tailoring, Leatherworking, Blacksmithing, and Engineering should have high level (BoP) armor sets, but none of them do. This wowhead search is for all BoP crafted items over level 78, as as you can see, there is not a single level 80 item in the list!

Crafting isn't the only glaring holes in this game. PVP armor from battlegrounds is completely missing too. You can spend hours farm honor and marks, but there is nothing to buy with them other than worthless battle potions :(

I'm a big fan of the game, but any review that gives the expansion 9/10 is just trying to avoid confrontation. Once a game has more than 10 million subscribers, it would be suicide to give a negative review!

Re:glaring ambiguity in your post

[Hoi Polloi]

Funny you are complaining about BOP items. Many leatherworkers have been frustrated by the lack of high level BOE items that can make the profession more profitable. Engineering has always had some very nice but completely unprofitable items too. It is nice to be able to at least support your fellow guildies for once with crafted gear.

As far as PVP gear goes I guarantee you it will be coming up in a future patch soon. Blizzard has always supported any feature that encourages grinding. :)

Re:glaring ambiguity in your post

[bonch]

Missing recipes, missing crafted sets for certain specs, bad itemization on existing sets (holy paladin set has strength and little intellect)...and so on.

Re:glaring ambiguity in your post

[astrokid]

I actually like this change, it encourages people to pick professions based on fun or profit as opposed to pigeon holing them to pick a profession based on the gear that can be made.

Re:glaring ambiguity in your post

[tbannist]

That hasn't been fixed, there isn't any good high level BOE items either. Most of the crafting guides currently say something along the lines of:

"Once you hit 420 don't bother trying to level up your skill, it's pointless".

That's just a sad comment on the state of crafting in WoW.

Re:glaring ambiguity in your post

[MarcoAtWork]

Tailoring, Leatherworking, Blacksmithing, and Engineering should have high level (BoP) armor sets, but none of them do.

says who? do you think they wanted a repeat of TBC where you crafted your frozen shadowweave and didn't get any upgrades until T5/T6 completely skipping the normal-heroic-kara gear progression?

The crafted items in TBC were way too good, I didn't replace my pmc+whitemend until badge+ loot, and I had been wearing those FOREVER, so much so that I hated every time something decent dropped healing-wise because I didn't want to break the set bonus.

I personally think WOTLK is amazingly well done (making even more obvious what a half-finished unfun thing WAR is/was), if at all I have to say that despite the spell power changes levelling as a healer still sucks, and this is why my first 80 will be my DK (which is a LOT of fun to play).

Re:glaring ambiguity in your post

[Arivia]

Blacksmithing's boe items are fantastic, especially for tanks. The Titansteel Shield Wall's better than anything until Naxx. As a jewelcrafter, I have a series of epic rings at 440 to look forward to - and they're worth the effort once I get there.

Also, the lack of bop items is intentional - Blizzard didn't want people to take a specific profession for good gear for their class. All of the professions can make interesting things for any class and most any spec now. This also ties into the boe thing - means you can make the best gear and sell it at a profit, instead of the old case where all the awesome patterns in SSC amounted to nothing gold-wise.

Re:glaring ambiguity in your post

[tbannist]

The complete failure that the top level tailoring patterns represent might be coloring my view, but frankly, I don't want to spend time making gear is likely to be thrown out the first time I run Naxx. Given that I'm in a casual guild and some of our guildees have already done reasonably well in Naxx pugs. I'm expecting a little more than "worse than entry level raiding gear".

The Tailoring gear is just poor. I think I'd rather go with the blue crafted robe than one of the epic ones. There isn't even any gem slots in the epic crafted robe, and that pretty much makes them a complete failure. I mean my character's level 70 robe is almost as good as the lvl 80 epic crafted robe? That's just great.

Re:glaring ambiguity in your post

[brkello]

Why would you think it would matter if someone gave a negative review on here? All the people who are griping are griping about minor stupid stuff that will be addressed in patches very soon. The core parts of the expansion are strong. They always fill out the rest over time. It is like finding a chunk of gold and then complaining it isn't very shiny yet. You know it is going to be polished...so relax.

WHICH grind ?

[unity100]

if you are still SOMEHOW grinding instead of questing (for whatever godforsaken reason) in Northrend with a level 70 character,

you shouldnt be playing any games. really. you dont have the cognitive power to correctly interface with a game ...

but what you said, which is contrary to EVERY single wow player i have been about and talked with, tells me that you are probably a shill or a fanboi, and dont know zit regarding what you are talking about.

Because its like

[unity100]

LIVING in a book. which, you cant do with books without spending considerable amounts of imagination.

Re:Because its like

[Anonymous Coward]

Is imagination expensive for you or something? Every time I need some it is always there in full supply.

Re:Because its like

[brkello]

I don't know if money is tight for you, but WoW to me is easily worth it for the entertainment I get from it. And I don't know if you are the same AC from before...but I play in two soccer leagues and get to the gym as well. You can still balance your life and play the game. Most people just sit around and watch TV after work. But for some reason, people sitting around and playing a game with friends is judged as wasting time. Even though they are more engaged and being more social than their TV watching counterparts. But if you say "I watched college football all weekend" no one really cares. If you say "I played WoW all weekend", that means something different. It is a double standard that I think will eventually go away as the older population dies off and the younger population takes over. Gaming is the entertainment venue of the future.

Raising the Bar

[RocketScientist]

Over the last year, I've played Warhammer: Age of Reckoning and Age of Conan.

I really feel sorry for both of them.

The bar's a bit higher now. The sheer variety of quest types now in WoW is just ludicrous. They put in a medevac quest.

Just mull over that a second. A fantasy MMO with a medevac quest. Fly in, pick up people in a siege zone, and fly them out.

And yes, it was awesome.

Quest lines where they basically give you invincible superpowers just so you can see the lore happen. The implementation of phasing really made me feel like I was part of what was going on and I was changing things in the game.

This is such a huge turnaround for Blizzard, who put all of the big lore-presentation bosses at the back of huge hardcore instances for so long. If you quest up through the game, you'll see Arthas, the Lich King, at least 4 times, and each time he's doing *something* that directly impacts *you*.

The shortfalls, however.

Crafting, except for jewelcrafting, is completely borked. Jewelcrafting has a lot of great self-buffs and very powerful things that can only be used by jewelcrafters. Other professions have very little, and my blacksmith has no reason to level over 415 (out of 450) in that skill.

Wintergrasp (the world pvp zone) needs some help. In order to balance the force, if one side is vastly outnumbered they get a stacking buff to their hit points, damage, and healing to compensate. This really means that the alliance on my server are basically fighting 10-man raid boss-level horde in PvP. It's not fun. They really need to fix the factions so we can temporarily swap to the other side or something. The horde is not much of a horde when they're outnumbered 10-1.

Certain class balance issues are still present, but not extreme. Warlocks are still an extremely fussy class to play, as opposed to other classes that rotate abilities or chain chance-on-hit abilities into combos, Warlocks basically stare at a set of timers and recast spells on a non-fixed rotation. Not fun.

All in all, they far exceeded my high expectations, for everything from content quality to quality of service. The servers haven't been perfect, but they also weren't the utter crapfest they were when Burning Crusade launched.

Re:Raising the Bar

[Fross]

Long-time WoW player (5 70s), current Warhamemr player, and mug who bought AoC and desubscribed after level 30 (like everyone else) here...

I agree the quality of the content Blizzard put in is second to none. The polish is *awesome* and even just trying out WotLK showed me that again. The quality storytelling is good, and I'm glad that's back, though it was an omission from TBC rather than something new.

What always bugged me about WoW was the world didn't really change. Two factions in open war, and all you can do is gank each other in remote areas. No city sieges, no territory control, anything like that. PvP seemed to be added on as an afterthought, and world PvP actually *punished* you to begin with (dishonor for killing npcs), so you couldn't mess with the opposition's cities or anything.

This is why I got into Warhammer. The ability to really get into the opposition's city, mess with it before you get pushed back, and where it really is a control for territory, grabbed me. And it does it pretty well so far.

A lot of what is new in WoW is stuff from Warhammer. Public Quests are a far better implementation than these "instanced" quests, which brigns back awful memories of AoC's instanced cities. Oh god. And the PvP quests, there is a lot of that in Warhammer, and not just the "kill X players" type - scouting, finding items, killing a specific combination of player classes, taking a keep, and so forth.

What I like is a lot of the game world is tied into that - If you want a renown trainer to train your pvp abilities or get gear, after the starter area, these are only available in keeps. and if the keep is owned by the other side... well you're out of luck. Go get the keep back first. And if your capital city is overrun... you can't go there for 24 hours! Serve you right for losing it in the first place!

WoW will always have a place in my heart (a gaping 3 year hole, haha) but wotlk seems more like they're playing it safe than taking risks and delivering something really innovative and a good improvement.

Re:Raising the Bar

[MBGMorden]

What I like is a lot of the game world is tied into that - If you want a renown trainer to train your pvp abilities or get gear, after the starter area, these are only available in keeps. and if the keep is owned by the other side... well you're out of luck. Go get the keep back first. And if your capital city is overrun... you can't go there for 24 hours! Serve you right for losing it in the first place!

Those are VERY PvP oriented things though. There's nothing wrong with that, but from my experience in playing the game for years, Warcraft is simply not targeted towards heavy PvP players. It's there, but only as an afterthought. And honestly, a lot of players like that. Just as an example, when praising aspects of Warhammer you instantly went to the PvP aspects. Look at what a whole heap of new WoW players are praising in Wrath though: expansion storylines, artwork, and actions that affect YOUR view of the world. Every time I heart players from one start degrading the other I'm instantly reminded that these two games, while similar on the surface, are targeting the desires of a different type of people.

For example, myself, I'm pretty anti-PvP. I hate it. I like the social interactions that WoW provides (hell my guild hosts an annual in person barbeque/party - I have a ton of friends online that I never would have met otherwise. I know of at least 2 couples amongst our ranks that first met in-game), but I don't want my gameplay to be at the mercy or whim of what another player chooses to do. If I logged in with 15 minutes to play the game, and discovered that Stormwind is inaccessible because the Horde had taken it for example, my subscription probably wouldn't last long. Neither way is wrong or right, but you can't cater to one group without upsetting the other, so just know that for a lot of things, it's not just a matter of WoW fixing an issue or adding content, but also a matter of how the existing players will handle that content. Optional stuff that you can ignore is quite often not an issue - afterall if you don't like it, then don't participate. World PvP taken to the extreme isn't ignorable quite as easily though, and so it'll have a more limited scope of people who will tolerate it.

Re:Raising the Bar

[RocketScientist]

WoW didn't do any public quests. I really liked that in Warhammer, it was a lot of fun.

AoC's instanced cities had issues, but they had a *very* stable launch, which is the only good thing that can be said about the game. It was very popular at launch and they engineered well for it.

Honestly the only thing that kept me out of Warhammer is that most of my friends play on Macs, and they won't put out a Mac version. Then I started reading that they've fixed the class I played the most (warrior) in WoW and it was all downhill from there. WaR is a great game, but I don't know that they'll have the subscribers long term to generate the capital to do the really cool stuff that WoW has now.

Warhammer also had one of the greatest anti-ganking mechanics I've ever seen. Simple, smooth, and effective. It's a great game, and if you don't like the cartoony feel of WoW and want to play an MMO, Warhammer is a ton of fun.

Re:Raising the Bar

[bonch]

Over the last year, I've played Warhammer: Age of Reckoning and Age of Conan.

I really feel sorry for both of them.

The bar's a bit higher now. The sheer variety of quest types now in WoW is just ludicrous. They put in a medevac quest.

I feel the opposite. I feel bad for WoW, because once you've hit max level in WotLK, there's nothing else to do but grind. They tried to rip off many Warhammer features, but they still can't touch public quests and RvR.

Look how many people are disappointed in how easy the expansion was. Check out the official forums where people have cleared all the content.

Re:Raising the Bar

[Rakarra]

Crafting, except for jewelcrafting, is completely borked. Jewelcrafting has a lot of great self-buffs and very powerful things that can only be used by jewelcrafters. Other professions have very little, and my blacksmith has no reason to level over 415 (out of 450) in that skill.

Really? The Titansteel stuff (requires 440 to make) is very nice.. I need to commission my blacksmith friend for it. I will admit jewelcrafting is, by far, the most "complete" profession. Everything else seems like a bit of a work-in-progress. Enchanting needs a lot of help -- the materials requirements are way too high to support the enchants people want. Many high-end enchantments require the materials you'd get from melting 30-40 green items, and that's seriously overestimating the amount of green items we get.

All in all, they far exceeded my high expectations, for everything from content quality to quality of service. The servers haven't been perfect, but they also weren't the utter crapfest they were when Burning Crusade launched.

Interesting, my reaction was the opposite. My realm was absolutely fine for the first month of BC. No blips, it just felt like another week. I'll contrast that with the first 6-8 months of the original WoW when the server lag and constant crashes and desyncs were so bad that my guild at the time nearly transfered (back when transfering was much more difficult than it was today).

Re:Raising the Bar

[emanem]

You're right, BUT, what they do they do it very neat and polished. And considering the current landscape of videogames for PC, this is a win/win situation. less stuff well done >> more buggy stuff. Cheers,

Re:Raising the Bar

[Peeteriz]

Well, I feel that enchanting is quite intentional that way.
You can do just fine with +50 spelldamage instead of the +60 spelldamage enchant that is ten times more expensive - but if you really want, you can go that extra mile and get a bit more dps.

Re:Raising the Bar

[illumin8]

I feel the opposite. I feel bad for WoW, because once you've hit max level in WotLK, there's nothing else to do but grind. They tried to rip off many Warhammer features, but they still can't touch public quests and RvR.

Actually, I feel the opposite. I played AoC and WAR up to max level, and once you get to max level there is pretty much nothing to do, especially in AoC, but also in WAR. Sure, you can trade keeps all day long with the other faction hoping for a gold loot bag, which you will probably never get because somebody cheesed their contribution and outrolled everyone (see, I have played WAR in tier 4). Raid content is non-existent, gear is terrible for anything other than beating the few raid bosses in the enemy city.

On the other hand, WotLK has a huge amount of gear, raiding, large open world PvP with Wintergrasp that has real rewards (ie gear that doesn't suck). When you get to max level in WoW, it's just the beginning of establishing your character through gear.

Re:Im an insatiable bastard, and even i have to ad

[unity100]

its a former powergamer, who has played so many games that now looks to other aspects of a game.

but a question does spring to mind - why post anonymous ?

How bout them abomination chains?

[jbacon]

This is my one gripe. The new chains that the NPC abominations get that can reach thousands of yards in any direction, and hurl you backward into a group of mobs you've just run though, who then proceed to stomp your face.

I haven't been torn off my flying mount yet, but I figure it's just a matter of time.

Re:How bout them abomination chains?

[beef curtains]

I think the grappling hook/chains are pretty sweet.

I haven't been yanked by an abomination unless I was somehow asking for it by somehow getting the mob's attention (by running through its aggro radius, or hitting it with a throwing knife).

mod parent insightful

[unity100]

for i second the experience. please mod stuff that give out solid information than ambiguous opinion, up.

Re:mod parent insightful

[Cowmonaut]

Mod both parents Informative, and myself as well.

If you want to start WoW now, you're going to be hurting most likely. From my experience the older zones are pretty damn empty now. If you played up to a few months after TBC came out I know exactly why you are disappointed. Unless you know where to go or someone tells you, the "natural progression" of quests lead you to a large grind in many areas about ever couple dozen of levels.

Recently, I've heard they made changes to XP gains so its not as painful to level. Too little too late. The game took too long to level with too few rewards. If you couldn't "get in" to a larger guild that was capable of doing raids you missed out on a lot of the point to the game as well. On the several North American servers I've played that wasn't easy. You couldn't just go ask to join, they'd turn you down. Meanwhile everyone else is screwed and unless you want to dedicate your life to running a WoW Guild you can't start your own to do it.

Then for me the part I really looked forward to was the PvP. Aside from it being painful to level up solo to the point I quit 3 or 4 times, once you are able to PvP there are glaring balance issues and bugs. My favorite was the several months of AV where the Horde towers would not fire arrows. They didn't close out the battle ground, they didn't give a quick patch. They made us wait MONTHS while they had a fix until they could put it with the content patch.

Or the level design issues. AV is another good example:

The Alliance town is far harder to assault. Horde have to run across a bridge spanning a chasm int he open and assault two towers on either side of the opposite end. Then they have to fight every Alliance mob to get to the Lord there with the Alliance spawn point right there, but on the opposite side of some other mobs that aren't worth fighting.

The Horde side? Oh you can run by all but one tower (remember, Horde have to kill both Alliance towers) and ignore all the Horde NPCs. The Horde spawn is in a cave and they have to cross a bridge to reach where the Alliance will be gathering to take on the Lord.

Yea. AV, this massive Battleground for PVP, turns into a blitzkrieg raid that the Alliance can only lose if they screw up and are disorganized.

So if you like a PVE experience, play WoW. Just hope you have a bunch of friends or get lucky enough to get in a guild (skill doesn't matter from the 8 NA servers I've been on. Never mind if you helped them out questing before hand either). There is a reason why WOW sold so much: Its made by Blizzard. There's a reason why it still makes money: Its just good enough. There's a reason I don't play it: I want fair PvP that is quick and fun.

Re:mod parent insightful

[MetalPhalanx]

No offense, but you sound like someone who stopped playing a long time ago and are now venting all your old annoyances.

Nothing is ever completely balanced, but because it's an MMO it CHANGES. How about you go on to mention the fact there was a patch where the horde spawn point in AV was way closer and the only way the horde could lose is if they were a bunch of mouthbreathers... Oh wait you probably weren't playing when it changed.

As far as getting a guild to raid, strange that I can in fact get invites to Naxx, even though my guild is 5 RL friends who play. Here's a tip: If you're good enough, people notice and will invite you along. If you're mediocre, they're not going to give you the time of day... Just like any other game.

Re:mod parent insightful

[unity100]

guy.

for a year and a half, horde started at a point so that, by the time alliance group's 4th member entered Galv, balinda was always dead.

we coped up with it and their 20% hp buff for 1.5 years. apparently you didnt play the game in that duration.

Re:mod parent insightful

[Sabalon]

Yea. AV, this massive Battleground for PVP, turns into a blitzkrieg raid that the Alliance can only lose if they screw up and are disorganized.

Guess it says a lot that I've never been on the winning side in AV - and I'm on alliance.

Re:mod parent insightful

[Anonymous Coward]

Your AV whines are just like every other hordie's I've ever heard.

Alliance players have to run by horde NPCs to get to the relief hut just like horde players have to run by alliance NPCs to get to the aid station.

Alliance players have to defend a *huge* open area right over the bridge -- if a few horde slip through, you have to chase them clear out of range of the main battle to take them down.

In contrast, the tiny choke point that the horde gets to defend is an uphill blind corner that is nearly impossible to see around to tell what you're fighting against. Not only that, but there are rooftops and fences that horde players can hide on top of to safely cast from -- and in many cases, easy to escape from/get out of line of sight when targeted.

Let's not forget Stormpike Graveyard -- horde can attack from 3 different directions, and as an alliance player, you can't see where they're coming from until they're right on top of you. There are again several hills that horde can climb that can only be climbed from the attacker's side, giving them a nice safe high ground advantage yet again.

Vann can be tanked by a freakin' moonkin. Drek rips through prot spec'd warriors.

The reason horde always lose AV is because they have no idea how to use their defenses. In my experience, any AV where the horde defend, it's generally a 50-50 chance that either side will win.

--Jeremy

better than "The Burning Crusade"

[fadir]

Blizzard avoided many mistakes that they made in their first expansion, involved the player much more into the story and added an awesome class.

The death knight quest chain alone is better than any quest chain in the original WoW and TBC - awesome!
Gladly it's not the only cool quest chain and I'm not even Level 80 yet (takes a little longer to go from 55 to 80).

Additionally they upgraded the graphics quite some.

My rating: 9/10

Hrm....

[$1uck]

I haven't played an MMORPG in over 6 years (played EQ on a pvp server for about 18 months before getting out with my life intact). A lot of the things listed above as innovative and new were in the original EQ (eg "arena challenges" with increasingly more difficult oponents, zones that were in "phases"). I'm just suprised such things are touted as "new."

Re:Hrm....

[ivan256]

The specific features you listed weren't even new in WoW. Both existed (though phasing only to a limited extent) in Burning Crusade.

I don't think they're being "touted" as new... The reviewer is simply lacking background info.

Re:Hrm....

[Microlith]

"arena challenges" with increasingly more difficult oponents

When someone refers to the "arena" in WoW, they're referring exclusively to PvP as that is the only arena in the game. Such has been requested for PvE based on the EQ system for older raid bosses, but it has yet to happen.

zones that were in "phases"

I wonder if this too is a confusion of terms. Currently, Blizzard's phasing allows multiple people to physically be in the same zone but have it appear wildly different for them, allowing lowbies to run into the Undercity and turn quests into the faction leader while someone who is 76-77 is barging through the hallways with Thrall killing Undead and taking down bosses.

Maybe you are thinking of instancing, which WoW does for all of its dungeons?

Re:Hrm....

[bigstrat2003]

When someone refers to the "arena" in WoW, they're referring exclusively to PvP as that is the only arena in the game. Such has been requested for PvE based on the EQ system for older raid bosses, but it has yet to happen.

Technically correct, but I believe you're incorrect in this instance. It sounded as though the "arena challenges with increasingly more difficult opponents", both here and in the article, was referring to the Ring of Blood questline in Nagrand, and now the Amphitheater of Anguish in Zul'Drak.

Re:Hrm....

[Jarnis]

No. Phasing was already used in late Burning Crusade - there is one daily quest that uses it, and the whole isle of quel'danas used phasing as people were "opening it up". In that case the "phases" of the island happened to everyone, but the system was the same - you did stuff, at some point - poof - things changed in the world.

Blizzard is not stupid - before they bet their whole franchise on a complex piece of code, they tested it, then they tested it more, then they tested it in the live game. Once it was proven to be solid, quest developers went nuts with it in Wrath of the Lich King.

Same is true for a lot of stuff - like, say, vehicles. Some of the vehicle stuff is new, but you could already "turn into a dragon" while fighting Kil'jaeden in Sunwell Plateau... or actually turn into a ghost while fighting Teron Gorefiend in Black Temple way earlier. Again, small roles for a piece of code ("morph player into something else, give him new quickbar of abilities, disable old ones") which, when proven, is then "let loose" with the quest designers, who promptly went nuts with the idea.

Re:Hrm....

[Rakarra]

When someone refers to the "arena" in WoW, they're referring exclusively to PvP as that is the only arena in the game. Such has been requested for PvE based on the EQ system for older raid bosses, but it has yet to happen.

I believe the original reviewer was refering to the PvE arena questlines, like the Ring of Blood in Nagrand and Ampitheater of Anguish in Zul'Drak.

Re:Hrm....

[$1uck]

nah... in EQ the zone would change depending on the time of day, or if quests were in various states of completion. Killing certain mobs would cause the zone to progress to another state and eventually it would recycle. I stopped mmorpgs before the instanced dungeon became prevalent. I just don't see that much has changed from eq to WOW in more than half a decade other than better graphics. I guess that makes me a troll *roar*.

The Technology Angle

[EXTomar]

An interesting thing to be noted in "Lich King" is the use of the "phasing technology". There are issues with the way it works as implemented now but I really see this as a jump in the technology of MMOs because it provides direct feedback to the player while doing quest progression.

With the way "phasing" works, players can now see results of their progress. For instance, a quest NPC can now say to players "I need help building a fortress here. I need you to..." and sort of mean it. As they work through the number of steps each time they come back they see a little more of the fort come together. What starts out as little more than some guys standing in an empty space can turn into a functioning town with vendors and new buildings and other facilities. There is a lot of "trickiery" used like sending you conveniently away to deliver or gather something so it can swap in stuff but in the end you really see the results of the work done. As horrible as grinding is, at least this is some big feed back to it which is better than the old fashion NPC who would say "thanks for the help" and never quite get around to building anything.

The problem is and forever will be concurrency. If you completed all of the quests to build up the fortress you will see the fortress. If your friend who hasn't been there before let alone completed any of these quests, at best will see nothing but the NPC asking him to help with building the fortress. At worst, you two maybe grouped and can't see each other. It sometimes gets hard to lend a helping hand to a friend if you aren't seeing what they see let alone particulate because they aren't even "there" with you.

Although it has issues, I really see this as having a lot of potential. I wonder if Blizzard could make an expansion with this stuff where an entire area/continent/world is overrun with bad guys but as you work through the content and quests you slowly but surely, and "heroically", fix the world. The end result with any MMO expansion is you fix whatever story/disaster/crisis that popped up. With this "phasing technology" they can start to approach that where people who "finish" the quests and content leave the area "evil free".

Re:The Technology Angle

[merreborn]

An interesting thing to be noted in "Lich King" is the use of the "phasing technology". There are issues with the way it works as implemented now but I really see this as a jump in the technology of MMOs because it provides direct feedback to the player while doing quest progression.

Guild Wars and Lord of the Rings Online have had their own "phasing" systems for a while now -- and those are just two examples I've personally run into in the last few years. And I'm sure earlier games have used similar mechanics as well.

Don't get me wrong, Blizzard still gets credit for using it effectively, and for a larger audience, but they don't really get credit for initiating this "technological jump".

Re:The Technology Angle

[Mozai]

I thought Tabula Rasa had that effect, where you could move the battle's front lines, and this would spawn new vendors and checkpoints in your conquered territories.

The technology was always there, starting with Anarchy Online(1) and instanced dungeons. Now we have our instance gateways overlapping the "overworld" geography. You could probably detect where the seams are if you walked to the phasing area side-by-side with a friend who hasn't started the quests to develop the area, and watch for them to disappear.

(1: yes yes, Anarchy Online wasn't the first, it was [insert MUDs name here]. Everything came from MUDs but try telling kids these days and you just get blank stares.)

/yawn

[doomicon]

I quit WoW when it started making the following statements...

"I HAVE to login so Bigsilly can get his 5 matches in..."
"I HAVE to login, they're one short for Kara..."
"I HAVE to login, I have to keep up with my dailies to purchase an epic mount.."

blech!!! No fun anymore, From what I've seen WotLK isn't breaking the mold, just a new paintjob on the same car.

Re:/yawn

[mopower70]

I quit WoW when it started making the following statements...

I think I would have quit the moment it started making ANY statements to me personally...

Re:/yawn

[Anonymous Coward]

What he said. Playing at the endgame level was nothing but work. Go farm pots/herbs for pots every day so you can raid, farm whatever rep you haven't maxed out yet, farm honor points and arena games for PvP gear, farm heroics/Kara every week for badges of justice, farm all your dailies so you can pay for repairs/mats/whatever else you can't farm, then go raid for a few hours a few nights a week. And that is, if you are in a decent raiding guild that isn't stuck on some raid they need to "practice" 4-5 nights a week.

And if you have alts (who doesn't nowadays) you do all that several times, once for each alt you play.

People come for the game and stay for only the social aspect. How true.

Re:/yawn

[Stormie]

I quit WoW when it started making the following statements...

Given that all of those problems were problems with you, rather than problems with the game, it's hardly surprising that the new expansion pack wasn't able to fix them.

Re:/yawn

[Arboris Clover]

Another lovely car analogy. Kudos to you, good sir

Re:/yawn

[Arboris Clover]

Another great car analogy. Kudos to you good sir.

Too bad it's not finished....

[ivan256]

The direction Blizzard was going with Wrath is clearly an improvement on what was already a good game....

It's too bad they didn't finish it before they released it. It's missing that typical Blizzard polish. Spelling errors and other glaring issues with quest text and NPC speech (including directions that send you to the wrong place, or places that just plain don't exist instad of the correct location); items with no names so strings like (null) and "%u" and "doodad_whatever" pop up all over the place; professions with no additional recipes long before you reach the skill cap; a new vehicle system that has no fewer than four completely separate implementations and user interfaces (half of which break); add-on API functionality that doesn't work or isn't documented; zone phasing technology that needs some of the kinks worked out; achievements that you get without actually accomplishing them, or don't get when you actually do.... etc...

They needed to keep working on it for another month or two before releasing it.

Re:Too bad it's not finished....

[shermo]

hey! Doodad_spider_door02 is a very appropriate name for the second door in the spider wind. And the 'doodad' is an insight into the developer's mental state at that time.

Re:Too bad it's not finished....

[bigstrat2003]

Uh... you say that there's a serious lack of polish, and from your description it's a critical problem. How is it, then, that I have yet to see one of the things you mentioned? Not even one. Maybe your game files are out of whack somehow, but the expansion is quite polished.

Re:Too bad it's not finished....

[MegaMahr]

I have to completely disagree with you. I bought it at midnight on release night and by Friday I was lvl 73. On Friday I spun up WoWMatrix and updated QuestHelper and finally had some guidance as to where I was going, but up until then, the quest descriptions in the quest log never steered me wrong. As for mispellings, that is going to happen. The only one I even noticed was on a poison, and "the" was spelled "teh," which I go a kick out of rather than being annoyed. Overall this is a great update. After hitting 80 I've been steadily gearing up to raid, and I'm actually enjoying it this time around. The new instances are the perfect length for a casual gamer, being about an hour each, so I can run several on weekends and 1 or 2 on nights where I just want to sit and play for a little bit. So after getting burnt out with BC, WotLK has sucked me back in.

Re:Too bad it's not finished....

[Opportunist]

You just don't want to know what the translations were like when WoW was originally released.

Unlike EQ2, they did iron out the wrinkles, I gotta give them that, though.

Re:Too bad it's not finished....

[NormalVisual]

I haven't seen everything he's mentioned, but I have seen quite a bit of it. Doing the New Hearthglen quest where you have to tame the horses and bring them back to Venomspite was an exercise in frustration because I couldn't dismount once I got back - this was a problem that was reported fairly regularly in the forums back in the beginning. I've run into at least half a dozen issues that required blowing away the game caches/addons in order to get stuff to work, when I'd never had a single issue of that kind previously with WoW or BC. I've reported a few spelling errors (one of the daily cooking quests asks for "Northern Stew" or "Northrend Stew", depending on where in the quest text you're looking, for instance). I think the worst one was being unable to level my cooking from 424 to 425 until once again, I blew away the game caches. Of course, that doesn't get back all the mats I burned before I figured out what was going on, and again, it's an issue that's been reported more than once in the forums.

By and large Blizzard did a good job, and they seem to be addressing problems fairly quickly, but I think WotLK should probably have stayed in the oven a few extra minutes.

Re:Too bad it's not finished....

[ivan256]

Just not paying that much attention?

If you're using quest helper, it's easy to miss errors in quest descriptions. It's just as easy for you to miss spelling errors as it was for the developers... Perhaps you're not far in? The starting zones were great. I didn't hit my first real bug until Grizzly Hills, and things didn't get really sloppy until Sholazar Basin. Some of the things are subtle too. Are you watching enemy cast bars? If not, you wouldn't notice if they're casting "none" at you. Seen "%u" win the arena competition in Zul'Drak yet? Do you have gathering skills? Well if you don't you wouldn't notice that your tracking will show you nodes that are in a phase you don't have access to anymore. That isn't by any means a comprehensive list...

I don't know how you can't have noticed the vehicle issue though. Sometimes the controls are an overlay that replaces your normal buttons. Sometimes they're a pet bar. Sometimes they're a new thing that is "sortof" a pet bar. Sometimes they have hotkeys, and sometimes they don't...

They did seem to get almost all of the game-breaking issues out of the game before release, and I do thing that overall Wrath is fantastic... But I can't see how anybody who's spent more than a few days at 80 can say it's "polished".

Re:Too bad it's not finished....

[ivan256]

Oh, achievements! Several times so far in Naxx, one of the people in the group gotten a Battleground achievement during a boss fight. (The 300k damage one). I got my "100 Emblems of Valor" achievement when I got my 96'th emblem. I got my "100 Stone Keepers Shards" achievement when I got my 106th shard...

No, they're not critical issues. It just seems like they rushed the game out the door instead of taking the extra time that the game needed to get the level of polish you expect from Blizzard.

Re:Too bad it's not finished....

[bigstrat2003]

I'm level 79. I'm through all the zones except Storm Peaks and Icecrown. I have mining. I have enemy cast bars turned on (and pay attention to them). I have never, and will never, use quest helper.

I say again, I have seen none of the issues you've mentioned. Not a single one. The polish on this game is as high as it's ever been, from my experience.

Some glaring errors in the review.

[dc29A]

The class was balanced quite well by the extensive beta testing

This explains why Blizzard is making major tanking changes in next patch because DK tanks suck. Also, damage dealing wise, they deal out way too much damage. Light years away from being balanced. PS: I play a Death Knight and I think the class is a horrible tank and too good DPS.

Gear has effectively been reset again, but not as severely as it was in The Burning Crusade.

I wonder if the reviewer has played "The Burning Crusade"...

The best 2h weapon available in vanilla WoW was 93ish DPS from Kel'Thuzad in Naxxramas. The best level 70 normal dungeon weapon has the same DPS and item level. Fast forward to WotLK and the best TBC 2h weapon available was around 150ish DPS (Apolyon from Kil'Jaeden). Some level 75ish dungeons already drop comparable weapons and level 80 normal dungeon weapons eclipse the best available TBC weapons, level 80 1h weapons have the same DPS as the best TBC 2h weapons. This is of course because the gear reset is way more severe than during the WoW->TBC transition. Item level gain is far more steeper in WolTK than TBC.

Re:Some glaring errors in the review.

[garylian]

Considering how much class balancing they had to do when WoW was first released, this should come as no surprise. If you've played since launch, how many times have your talents been refunded?

Most of my guildmates are levelling their DKs up as fast as possible, because they know the nerf bat is coming, and it's going to hit hard. So, they want to get as far as they can in "easy mode".

I've only played my DK through the intro levels, then got sent to SW. And it was obvious just after that time that it was too easy. And if you make a Draenei one, it has some healing ability added in. It's almost comical.

Re:Some glaring errors in the review.

[shermo]

However, there's couple of factors you neglected to mention. Naxx at lvl 60 was never nerfed significantly, so only a tiny percentage of players had Kel'thuzad gear. On the other hand, sunwell at level 70 was 'puggable' after the final nerf. Hence, far more people had access to the final tier of BC gear.

Secondly, the stamina cost was decreased going from 60-70, so entry level 70 tanking gear was much better than lvl 60 gear.

Re:Some glaring errors in the review.

[MarcoAtWork]

This explains why Blizzard is making major tanking changes in next patch because DK tanks suck. Also, damage dealing wise, they deal out way too much damage. Light years away from being balanced. PS: I play a Death Knight and I think the class is a horrible tank and too good DPS.

I think it's more along the lines that you play a dk and don't know how to tank (or have a bad spec), and group up with puggies that don't know how to dps (there are people at 80 that even have trouble breaking 1k dps)

Play with competent people and you'll see that DKs tank quite well (as unholy, blood is hopeless, frost is so-so as your gear improves) and as much as they are good they are definitely not top dps by a long shot.

Re:Some glaring errors in the review.

[Killjoy_NL]

I've got a dranei DK called Vulvarius on the EU-Silvermoon server :)
Combine the dranei healing ability with the one you get from herbalism (mine's maxed out now) and you can keep going for quite a while :D

Re:Some glaring errors in the review.

[Peeteriz]

Hmm, DK tanks are quite ok... We're raiding naxx-25, and maintanking is on DK or warrior, depending on which is more suited for each boss.

Death Knight Mini-Review

[rickwood]

The Death Knight area is interesting and fun. Then it's over and you find yourself saying, "Thrallmar. I can't believe I'm back in Thrallmar."

Re:Death Knight Mini-Review

[WingedEarth]

It may have been nice to permanently be a Scourge character in the game, with quests involving raids of active Horde and Alliance towns, and skirmishes with the Burning Legion. In fact, it would be cool to see a phased version of a war between Scourge and Forsaken over the Lordaeron lands.

Aaaaaughibbrgubugbugrguburgle!

[MazzThePianoman]

aka RwlRwlRwlRwl aka MRGLR GLMRGLMR RRLGGG http://www.wowwiki.com/Murloc

Oblig MP ref

[Hoi Polloi]

It could be worse, it could be a cheese shop that doesn't have any cheese.

"Not much of a cheese shop really?"

Penny Arcade question

[vrmlguy]

When WotLK came out, I followed a link to a PA strip featuring the Lich King talking to a sycophant. The King was bored, and the sycophant was discussing ways to cheer him up, without success. Each idea had its own punchline, and one of the was killing high level players; the King replied that anyone who had plateaued already had no life and death would be a mercy.

Since then, I've been unable to find the strip. I thought it referred to the WotLK expansion, but may have been talking about the previous one. I've singled-stepped through several weeks worth of strips around the date of both releases, but haven't found anything. If anyone can help, I'll mod you up the next time i have points.

Thanks!

Re:Penny Arcade question

[bigstrat2003]

That'd be because it's not Penny Arcade, it's Ctrl+Alt+Del.

Re:Penny Arcade question

[vrmlguy]

Excellent! Someone needs to tell Gabe to quit plagiarizing Tim's style. :-)

ROFL

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who plays for more than a month is insane

Different people have different tastes. Some people like camping, an activity in which one endures extemes of weather, pests, wild animals, sleeping on uncomfortable surfaces, and (in some cases) the need to carry your own waste back with you when you go home. I can think of few activities that I would enjoy less. But I don't call people who like camping "insane." I simply appreciate that they derive some kind of fulfillment from this which I do not.

In fact, given the widespread popularity of this activity, I could almost make the case that I am myself insane for *not* liking it. That is...if sanity is just determined by numbers.

The same is true of WoW. People who play it derive fulfillment that you don't. That doesn't make them insane. And given that Blizzard is absolutely *ROLLING IN IT* due to the high number of players of this game, I would say that you might be insane for not liking it.

So there you have it.

Murlocs are fan favorites

[Puffy Director Pants]

Murlocs are fan favorites, people love to hate them. It is not a kind love, but it is truly a love.

Besides, the little gurgle the Murloc babies make is just so cute and precious!

Re:Murlocs are fan favorites

[Spellvexit]

And how -- I've been disemboweled by them on the beach a few times, but I still can't help but wander close to their shanty villages for a glimpse of them from time to time. Their loathesomeness is somehow magnetic. People may hate them, but I've seen all kinds of Murloc merchandise in the real world. You can't say that for leper gnomes.

I'm still waiting for a 25-man heroic murloc instance!

No Point

[interploy]

I think there is very little point in reviewing updates for MMOs. Considering the entire business model revolves around continuous content updates and subscription-based payments, it'd be ridiculous for someone planning to play that MMO for any real length of time not to buy the update for it.

I'm just glad Blizzard is the kind of company that focuses on quality and doesn't rush their shit, because at this point WoW is big enough that they really could take a dump in a box, slap on the WoW label, and watch the sales come in.

Re:No Point

[BlackSnake112]

What about the MMOs that you pay for the game and that is it? No subscription fees at all. There are those out there.

Re:No Point

[interploy]

It depends on whether the expansions are mutually exclusive or not. If you can pick and choose the expansions, then yes a review is beneficial. But if you need one expansion to play another, then my previous statement still applies. If you plan on playing the MMO for a significant amount of time, you might as well get the updates. No one likes to be the guy in the group with the crappy equipment because he doesn't have the expansion yet.

Same old, same old

[Anonymous Coward]

I started out with my holy priest in wotlk, found that unless you spec shadow (something I refuse to do because it screws groups for healing unless you are well geared) or have people for small groups, nonelites will take up a good chunk of mana per kill, forcing one to drink often. The main damage spell I used was put on a ten second timer, and since the wand DPS improving talents were yanked, it forces more mana to be used either for offensive spells, or to keep PW:S up.

The DK quest arc is one of the best I've seen in MMOs from the character creation to the final battle. 60-70, its a breeze. 70-80 is also a breeze. However, like hunters and rogues, you hit endgame with a DK, you end up farming for an alt that is actually wanted/needed for groups/raids. This is because there is an overpopulation of the glowing blue-eyed class, and that DKs don't tank as well as warriors, pallies, or druids at the same gear level, nor do they DPS as well as dedicated DPS classes (and DPS is key for WoW raids/groups.)

The phasing is a very cool addition, and its great that all the phased cities and landing areas are soloable. The movie cutscene you encounter when you finish up a long quest arc in Dragonblight is also great.

Loot that NPCs give you as quest rewards seems to be the same type of equipment piece. For example, I'd have a bunch of quests handing me random helms with slightly different stat variations, but very few quests with a pants or bracer upgrade.

All and all, the gameplay is great, but as something social, I'd take EQ2 instead. Blizz did a great job, but unless you have real life friends you group or guild with, or high quality guildies, its no fun trying to find a group for instances, and find that almost nobody knows basic grouping skills (tanking, agro management, heal timing.) EQ2 doesn't have controllable flying mounts yet, but having the ability to have your own house, and a player base which is extremely good at grouping/raiding makes up for it. WoW is great now, but once everyone hits 80, it will be the same old, same old... spend your character's life grinding Arena matches and spending your time in BGs to earn the marks and honor for yet another PvP set upgrade. EQ2 also has some very well done zones (such as Moors of Ykesha.)

Re:Same old, same old

[Rycross]

Disc is a good spec that balances healing with damage. You can't pump out the DPS like a shadow priest, but with a good disc build, plus 3 points into spirit tap, I never had to sit and drink. Disc is also pretty good at healing. You don't have the AOE panic heals you get from circle of healing, but you rarely need those in 5-mans, and Penance is an incredible single-target healing spell (less mana and more healing than Greater Heal, channeled but activates instantly).

The only problem I had were groups that thought I couldn't heal because I wasn't holy. I respecced holy when I hit 80 for raiding.

That's a glaring hole?

[Petersko]

"There are currently 4 cooking recipes missing. They are unobtainable, yet they are required for the Northrend Gourment achievement in which you need to cook 45 of the 46 Northrend recipes. Additionally, you need at least 1 of those recipes to learn 160 recipes for an achievement."

Cooking is useful throughout, recipes are plentiful, and it's apparently enjoyable enough for you to get all the way to the end of the crafting. You're complaining about the "tick" that is the achievement. What you have here, sir, is a nitpick - not a "glaring hole".

One glaring inadequacy.

[plasmacutter]

Death knight tanks depend on parry rather than block.

There isn't enough parry gear in LK to sustain a DK tank. I play a healer, i know these things. They take way too much damage and it's not their fault when there just isn't itemization for them.

Re:One glaring inadequacy.

[Puffy Director Pants]

What's worse is the lack of a DK sigil for tanking, and the lack of options a DK has to get sufficient defense to prevent critical hits.

Re:One glaring inadequacy.

[MarcoAtWork]

Death knight tanks depend on parry rather than block.

There isn't enough parry gear in LK to sustain a DK tank. I play a healer, i know these things. They take way too much damage a

dude, my main is a healer and I play a dk, yeah, dk tanks take damage a little more spike-ly than a warrior/paladin (less so if they know how to play and juggle all CDs properly) but they are awesome tanks also.

Not to mention that all tanks depend on DEFENSE, and if you are not defense capped in a heroic all the parry in the world won't help you when the boss crits you and gg. The main issue with DKs now is that due to tanking with a 2h and not having a tanking sigil, we have to make up all the defense that warriors/paladins get on 1h swords, shields and ranged: blizzard is aware of it and it will likely be fixed via buffs to frost presence and a new sigil.

Re:One glaring inadequacy.

[AK Marc]

Why not play them like a Druid? Go for the dodge and not the block. Dodge is cheaper than parry (cheaper in that for the same item points, you have a greater avoidance gain). They don't need the parry for the DPS gain, as their DPS is already good enough, so dodge will save more damage than parry for the same gear levels. I don't know what a DK looks like at 80 spec'd for tanking, but a tanking druid (the other shieldless class) would have about 30k armor and 20k health, plus decent dodge. I imagine that the DK will be short on armor compared to that, and so will take more damage. So there should be talents that make up for that, or a DK would be inferior to a druid. I've heard mention that DKs do better with spell damage. Since a tanking DK can DPS with an aura/aspect change, and a druid can DPS with a shape change, why not dual-tank, with the druid tanking physical bosses and the DK tanking casters?

They changed crushing blows, and so rather than killing oneself trying to get uncrushable, tanks are free to go for stam, avoidance, or whatever they personally like. Perhaps you've been hanging around DKs that were still trying to stack parry and defense, and weren't focusing on stam and dodge? If they die and you aren't OOM, then they didn't have enough stam. If you didn't overheal and go OOM, you DPS sucks or the tank stacked too much stam and not enough avoidance (essentially dodge for DK, parry though is not bad if it happens to be on a piece of gear, but stacking it as primary is a waste). So if you aren't OOM, the problem was your heals or the tank needed stam, and nothing to do with parry, block, or anything else. My wife plays a Shammy and prefers the long slow big heals, so I have to stack stam over everything else to match her style with my tank. If she was a renew-loving priest who liked to keep everyone topped off with flash heals, then we'd be better of with me ignoring stam (well, as much as a tank can) and stacking avoidance. It's true that there is a formula that will win specific fights. However, people forget that there's more than one way to skin a cat (or dragonkin).

Re:One glaring inadequacy.

[smegged]

As a paladin tank I'd have to say that it annoys me that there is so much parry on the tanking gear. You see it is itemised at a higher cost than dodge or defence, meaning that I get less avoidance from it. Every second piece seems to have parry on it too.

The real problem for death knights comes from getting to 540 defence.

Re:One glaring inadequacy.

[phlinn]

If you are tanking with 2H weapons and struggling with defense rating, you are doing it wrong. You have dual wield for a reason. If you don't need the extra tank stats on a weapon, by all means use a 2 hander. Otherwise, spec into dual wielding and get some defensive swords.

Re:One glaring inadequacy.

[MarcoAtWork]

I think you need to look more at parry-gibbing and at just how many things you need to give up as a DK to dual wield effectively. Dual wield tanking is at the moment not feasible at all.

Re:One glaring inadequacy.

[TheNumberless]

Absolutely, positively wrong. If you're DW tanking, your threat sucks because of the DW hit penalty, and you're giving bosses free parry hastened attacks against you all the time. Stop giving your healers a headache and tank with a 2H.

Re:One glaring inadequacy.

[phlinn]

It would depend on the mob and the rest of your build really. Assuming you DW two weapons with defense, AC, and stamina, I think the extra mitigation and avoidance would offset the extra swings. Take for instance two Infantry assault blades. About 1.1% less chance to be parried to begin with, 66 defense and 98 stamina. That defense helps achieve uncritable if you aren't quite there, and increases you avoidance roughly 1.5%. I think this thread makes a more persuasive argument.

Wha?

[Anonymous Coward]

After reading all these raving comments I am wondering if you guys are playing the same game I am playing... WOTLK imho is exactly the same old, same old with just few tweaks here and there. The new zones are boring and monotonous. The only thing I really enjoyed was the DK quest line.

The fact that there's a set best strategy..

[Anonymous Coward]

tells you how simple it is, because it unfolds exactly the same goddamn way every time.

Once you've done it a few times to get the timing down (or are using an add-on that alerts you when things are about to happen), you can almost do these end game raids with your eyes closed.

That's very simple game play, regardless of how much lipstick you try to put on it.

Wrath would be great, but...

[X3J11]

Early this Saturday past, after taking my hourly cigarette break around midnight, I came back to a disconnected from server message. Trying to log back in I was told my account had been banned.

The e-mail I later received claimed I had been exploiting the World of Warcraft economy, which seems to be Blizzard's catch-all excuse for banning.

Now, I know everyone who's ever been banned claims innocence, and I'm no different. But I can honestly say that I've NEVER bought gold from an online reseller, nor have I ever paid for someone else to play my character. I pay my monthly fee so I can play the damned game, and to be accused of cheating and banned without even the opportunity to speak for myself is an huge insult.

I'll readily admit that I've done some things against their EULA in one case, which was firing up my friend's account so I could use his character to run my lowbie through two instances. Oh, and I bought my friend his epic mount while I was on his toon. But this was months ago, and I've not done anything unacceptable either before or since. Hell, I religiously report EVERY gold seller that spams their noise in chat.

I've been a fan of Blizzard games pretty much since the beginning, and I can reach back into the stack of olden disks and pull out my copy of the original Orcs and Humans. I've been a WoW subscriber since February of 05.

Needless to say, I'm really pissed at Blizzard treating a loyal fan of theirs, as well as a paying customer (my WoW account's paid until January, even) like this.

Still waiting for a reply from their account admin department to get this sorted out, although I'm not holding my breath they'll fix this and compensate me for their mistake somehow. I've got tons of screenshots (over a gig), documenting ME playing MY characters covering the last 3 years as proof that I play my own damned account. I'm a single father currently between jobs, I have nothing better to do with my time (aside from finding another job, of course). Needless to say, this is seriously going to impact any future purchases when it comes to Blizzard products. Not that any amount of money I spend on their work matters next to their other 10 million subscribers (or whatever they're up to now).

I guess this is just a buyer beware warning. You can be banned at the drop of a hat by Blizzard, and it takes forever to get things sorted out. The worst part is that I have to prove my innocence instead of Blizzard having to prove my guilt.

Re:Wrath would be great, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

You did admit to violating at least part of their terms of service though. This may have been only a minor one, but it's still against the rules. Perhaps that's what they're concerned about, perhaps it is something else. Obviously you can't expect the game to show what you've done, so we'll have to wait till you communicate with Blizzard and find out exactly what they believe you did.

Re:Wrath would be great, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

You didn't say if you were ally or horde. My sympathy for you depends on that. Here's hoping you say "horde". ;)

Re:Wrath would be great, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a similar experience with their "support," although I was not banned. Just because you're only 1 of 11 million+ customers doesn't mean that's how they should treat you. It truly is disappointing to get this response from a company that I have supported for such a long time (like you, I still have my original Orcs & Humans CD). Needless to say I cancelled my account, not that they will notice or care...

Re:Wrath would be great, but...

[Rycross]

My WoW was actually banned while it was deactivated! This was several years ago, so I don't know if it still applies, but they were using some auto-detection tools to do mass bannings. Despite the fact that I had cancelled my account and not payed in several months, they marked mine as banned.

I emailed them, and they swapped my status from "Banned for exploits" to "Banned because your account was stolen." The idea that my account was stolen was, of course, ridiculous, because my card wasn't being charged, the account was still deactivated, and none of the account details had been changed.

The long and short of it is that they wanted some ridiculous level of documentation, such as a fax of my birth certificate. Since I wasn't even playing (I just felt that one day I might want to play again) I didn't bother.

Re:Wrath would be great, but...

[X3J11]

Well, I do subscribe to an honesty is best policy. I don't like lying more than I don't like cheating, and slightly less than I like being accused of cheating, which is what I got from their You Are Banned e-mail ("exploitation of the World of Warcraft economy").

But you're right, I did violate their terms, even if it was months ago. Whether I think they're draconian or not is pretty irrelevant. I had permission, even encouragement, from my friend to use his account. I'm just hoping he hasn't been banned as well due to my mistakes. He doesn't play often due to his employment, but I guess he'll be on the phone telling me if anything goes wrong the next time he signs in.

Re:Wrath would be great, but...

[X3J11]

Alliance mostly, but I do have a few Horde toons.

I don't play the game like some people who take it to the extreme and /spit or whatever on the opposite faction, just because they're the opposite faction. In fact, I've helped out Horde players just as much as Alliance when I can. I'm out to enjoy myself and have fun... if helping someone else out makes something easier for them, then I do it regardless of faction.

Re:Wrath would be great, but...

[X3J11]

From some of what I've read online, that seems pretty much par for the course with Blizzard.

I've been reading about folks having to fax or snail mail in a copy of their driver's license just to prove they are the person on the account.

The most ridiculous thing about this is that it's by far easier to just buy the game again and start all over. I don't know if they check for dupes during account creation, but considering that "boxing" is so rampant, and apparently just fine by Blizzard (*), I doubt they'd blink twice.

Unfortunately, I've invested several years and countless hours into the game. I don't want to start from scratch, and honestly I wouldn't want to risk Blizzard screwing me over again in another three years (assuming this doesn't end happily for me, the increasingly disgruntled customer).

(*) On a side note, that's something that I find quite hypocritical of Blizz. You cannot use any hardware device that automates actions, but it's quite fine to fire up several instances of the game on the same machine and use a software solution to send one keystroke to those multiple instances of WoW.

Forgive me, that's my rant for the day. I guess it's pretty nerdish to reply to every response to my whining, even the AC's. Oh well, on the bright side it's giving me some time to catch up on my reading and some television series' I've been missing. Who knew Smallville would turn out to be so good?! :)

Re:Wrath would be great, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why I bought a Blizzard Authenticator. Its almost downright scary how many keyloggers there are in the wild just in efforts to grab WoW accounts.

Stolen WoW accounts are big money. They can be resold, or used as farm/spam/grief bots until Blizzard gets around to banning it.

This is why I also keep a different password on parental controls. If I pull my subscription, before it runs out, I log into parental controls and disable all hours. Then, if someone does get access via the account password while I'm not playing, they can't log on any characters or do much, other than perhaps sell the username/password info to another schmoe.

It is fun getting chars to 80, but I'm pretty sure with the favoritism the devs have shown in PvP that you will have the usual 1-2 classes with a trivial macro they can mash down mindlessly and the rest their HKs once the majority of the population heads back into the BGs and arenas. Its been Blizzard's way since the game was released.

Re:Wrath would be great, but...

[sydneyfong]

Happened to me some years ago.

No idea what triggered it.

Bleh.

PvE vs PvP

[Frigga's Ring]

The quests didn't present much of a PvE challenge even to a resto druid two levels under the quest level. However, on a PvP server, I've had a friend get ganked while doing quests like these. I went to help him only to find I can't help since I'm in the restored town and he's still trying to restore it. Also, while most of us at Slashdot are adults, there are kids who play these games. Sometimes, it's just nice to lend a hand when someone needs it. Thought I still really enjoy the phasing aspect, it would have been nice if Blizzard made it possible to revert to an older phase in other to assist a party member.

Fun to design, tedious to play

[ukyoCE]

I loved being around for the beta design process of this expansion. I spent hours in the forums and on mmo-champion.com every day discussing class balance and the like. It's a blast trying to design for such a complicated and complex game with such a huge audience. When BC came out there didn't seem to be quite as much openness in the design process, and I ended up quitting from BC's launch until a couple months ago.

Now that LK is out? The actual gameplay is still very tedious. It takes hours to go up levels and move on to new and interesting places. Double or triple that if you add in auctioning, professions, etc. I'm slowly leveling some of my toons, but every time I have to spend 20 minutes running from point A to point B a bit of me dies inside.

There's just too many timesinks in the game. Presumably intended to keep people paying rather than to keep them having fun while it lasts and then letting them move on.

Wall of text crits you for 133700 dmg

[fbilsen]

TLDR

What is happening around me

[Anonymous Coward]

As a person who has never played Wolrd Of Warcraft, I have to say that most of you sound like complete psychopaths.

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

For those of us sick of WoW, darkfall is just around the corner.

forums.darkfallonline.com

Face the reality of WoW

[Opportunist]

You're never going to be "far behind" everyone else. Whenever something new comes in, shortcuts are made in the old content to push you past it faster.

Do you remember the times of Molten Core? Everyone was there. People spent days, weeks, months grinding it. Anyone been there lately? I kinda doubt it.

Kara. Remember the key grinding? Go from here to there to that instance to whateveritwascalled, just for the master's key, so you can finally get in. Patch comes, new instance, no key required anymore.

When BC came out, a friend of mine was close to quitting. He finally got his whateverblade the week before that he was grinding for for over a month. He steps into the first BC dungeon, a green drop and presto, better than that whateverblade he spent months to grind instances for.

It's the same now with WotLK. You spent months to get your level 70 gear together and I'm sure, after 2 days of running instances you have already trashed it and replaced it with the green crap that dropped. It's going to continue that way. Some new dungeon gets opened and whatever is a tedious long grind now will be a cakewalk, so people can catch up.

It's a necessity if WoW wants to stay successful. Else people will actually react the way you do now. "I've been away too long and can't catch up." That simply isn't correct the way they do it. You can catch up. People who are ahead of you are running in treadmills while behind them you're in the fast lane to get close to them in no time. And when you're at the same step they are, i.e. doing the same dungeon they do, it's basically a matter of luck whether you or them gets their drop first.

Re:Face the reality of WoW

[tacarat]

Well, there's technically far behind and far behind enough for things to not be fun. The grind of levels bores me now. My time zone, HST, takes me out of my server's busy period and the old world is even quieter than it was before. I had the same problems when I was on a west coast server. My old guild has changed makeup so much that I don't recognize a lot of the people or personality types. Most of them powered up to 80 already.

Hardly insurmountable, you're very right there. But hardly something I feel like accomplishing. If I really wanted to do that I'd probably just transfer myself to a new server and start from scratch. At least the MMO portion of the game would be fresh.

no bullshit please

[unity100]

Engineering is not an armor related profession. its a gimmick profession that produces usable tools. it has no business in creating armor SETS.

and im also appalled at your ignorance about those professions.

'level 80 required item' doesnt mean that it will require you to be level 80. the helmets engineering makes for example, all require level 72, however, in order to be able to go into heroic dungeons and acquire the specific materials they require, you HAVE to be level 80.

Biggest miss

[H310iSe]

It's a shame there's still no place to keep n show your stuff. No, bank doesn't count, I mean houses (or at least guild halls) - the one thing SWG got right that WOW has /facepalm'd is the lack of cool stuff that isn't clothing, or weapons.

in SWG i remember just abandoning quest lines when one of the things I picked up for a quest was so cool looking I had to have it in my house. Spending hours visiting friends, seeing what they were up to, and admiring their painfully detailed work the way I admire grand ASCII art (it took hours to move things just, exactly where they should be - design flaw but props to peeps who put up with it).

In SWG I had a hut, on an abandoned mountaintop, full of trophies and funny bits of my life in game, and I miss that.

Oh, and social crafting! how Blizzard missed making barbers a player craft (even if it was just secondary) is beyond me.

SWG sucked in major, buggy ways in terms of gameplay but in terms of a social space to interact and imagine in it was years ahead of WOW, years ago. Had better graphics too.

Otherwise I more or less agree with the post. Oh, and I'm not too happy about warlock nerfs, but that will just make my inevitable, crushing revenge on all the classes that instaglib me now all the more satisfying. Locks will rise again, be given something against melee (that lasts longer than 30 sec every 3 min), and that, my friends, will be a red day.

Will it pass the ten minute rule?

[Zaphod-AVA]

I quit Everquest when it became clear to me that many game design elements were not merely bad, but actually sadistic. Since then I have one unbendable rule:

If I have to walk/run/do nothing for ten minutes in a row, I uninstall the game and throw it away.

Does World of Warcraft now pass this test?

Re:Will it pass the ten minute rule?

[Microlith]

Did it ever not? Even at the lowest levels, the towns and points of interest are at most a 5 minute run apart. Anything longer probably has -some- NPC waiting to give you quests along the way. Once you have the flightpoints, no quest hub is more than 2 minutes (usually) from its target, less now that you can get a mount at 30. I mean, if you want to find something that hits it sure, fly east to west across Northrend. Halfway (borean tundra -> dalaran) is about 5 minutes. But there's faster ways to get across the continent, so I doubt it'd be valid.

Anyone who stalls and wanders for a long amount of time thinking there's nothing to do at their level or that it takes too long to get somewhere isn't looking or doesn't know where they're going. It's entirely possible to always have a full quest log and be doing something.

Re:Will it pass the ten minute rule?

[illumin8]

Does World of Warcraft now pass this test?

Unfortunately, no it doesn't pass this test because there are still several gryphon flights between cities that will take longer than 10 minutes.

I wish they made travel a little bit easier in WoW; it is a great game, but travel time is the one annoying factor. They need to just put portals (ala Dalaran) in every city that lead to all of the capital cities, like you would find on a private server. I tried a private server briefly and having portals everywhere to make travel easier was a godsend.

They have done a good job of eliminating most of the annoying parts of MMOs, even the new Death Knight doesn't have to worry about mana or rage, you simply have rune cooldowns that keep you from spamming your big damage abilities too often. They've done a masterful job at making the quests fun as well.

Now if only they could reduce the annoyance of travel time.

Spoilers

[Samah]

Interesting article, but way too many spoilers. Fortunately I've done the quest chains mentioned in the article, but I still think that the author's level of description for some areas is a little deep for a "review". The comments about The Oculus in particular were a little too damaging to someone who would otherwise walk up to the final boss and say "WOAH! That's awesome!" without any idea of what to expect.

What about the casual player?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been playing for about a year and am clearly the exception - I'm only level 45 due to 1. Lack of time to play (there was a couple of months I didn't play AT ALL) and 2. Not being a very experienced gamer in general and taking my time. At the rate I am going, I should be ready for Burning Crusade next July and maybe Lich King maybe a year from now! So my question to Blizzard is - why not release something cool for me, e.g. an expansion that can be played with lower-level characters?

Re:What about the casual player?

[SilverJets]

They won't because unfortunately as you said you are a casual player and only level 45. Blizzard doesn't care about you, they only cater to the higher levels. Case in point, all the seasonal and holiday quests that come out that are only for those close to or above level 70. The rest of us only get stupid ones like trick-or-treat at the inns. Whoopdee farking doooo!

Re:What about the casual player?

[RogueyWon]

Actually, Blizzard do what they can for the lower levels, to be honest. From the second half of the Burning Crusade era, they began a fairly comprehensive (and successful) programme of making the levelling grind faster and more enjoyable, particularly around the 38-45 range, which used to be absolute hell and was where lots of players, particularly the more casual ones, were giving up.

Not only has there been a reduction in the experience needed to level up, but a number of old quests have been rationalised and simplified. Some of the old group quests have been made accessible to solo players, as an acknowledgement that most of the player-base are at the level cap now. The experience and loot rewards for many of the old "levelling up" instances, such as Deadmines, Gnomeregan, Uldaman and so on, have been improved significantly, while a few tweaks have been made to reduce the difficulty of some of those instances.

Perhaps the biggest boon to low level players has been the complete makeover that Blizzard gave to Dustwallow Marsh. Previously a rather sparse, unwelcoming area with little function other than as the Alliance port in Eastern Kalimdor, the zone is now the most content-dense zone in the whole of the "old world". They've added a large number of fun (and occasionally novel) quests, based conveniently around a few hubs, which replicates the "Outlands level up experience" in Azeroth and massively accelerates the 38-42 level range. In the past, the only real way through those levels was to suffer your way through Stranglethorn Vale until you were finally able to escape to the relative delights of Tanaris and Hinterlands. Having Dustwallow as an alternative is infinitely preferable.

Ultimately, though, there's very little point in Blizzard adding much more "low level" content. The simple fact is that WoW has a very short level-up curve by the standards of most MMOs. Most casual players will make it to level 80 sooner or later, where they can go and do 5 and 10 man instances, or PvP.

Obsolete instances don't get played very much. When WotLK came out, all of the (generally well designed) level 70 instances vanished from the radar. I guess the occasional group of people levelling up might hit the level 70 5-mans a couple of times. Perhaps you'll even get the occasional crowd of people at 68-71 poking their heads into Karazhan. But everything from Gruul's Lair through to Sunwell Plateau will now get nothing more than the occasional nostalgia run. If Blizzard were, say to add a couple of new level 50 instances, most players would probably run them once, get a level and a couple of drops from them and then never go there again. By contrast, new top level content will claim far more time from players.

Sounds nice enough to back - almost

[Sabalon]

I was amazed the first time I stepped into Azeroth. Elywnn Forest was so peaceful. As I brought my character up, some things seemed to get so boring and annoying. "Go halfway around the world go get X and bring it back. Oh you did that...go back to where you were and get y. Oh..thanks...now go back and get z. Now that you have brought me all 3, go back and kill the mob that you killed twice already getting x,y and z"

I saw way too much of that, so when I got to lvl60, I quit, leaving my hunter standing in IronForge. A few months later I make a warlock. This was after the first expansion came out and Azeroth became a subsidiary of Nerf. It was a lot easier to bring my Warlock up, however I just couldn't see paying for the expansion to do more of the same in outland. So I quit again.

A couple months ago, I felt the call and brought a mage up to lvl60. I hit lvl50 around when WotLK came out, so it helped in that lots of Death Knights where running around doing the old end-game instances for the achievements. For my other two characters, it could take a day or two to find enough people to run Stratholme.

So, anyway, got up to lvl60, tried the Burning Crusade trial, which has all the BC content included in the current patches/installs. So now if I wanted to continue, I'd be paying $30 for a key that says "yeah...let him into other parts of the world." And then $40 for another key for WotLK.

So I guess I'll just let things lapse again, disappear from the guild I'm in and be forgotten, and probably in 6 months time level something else up to 60 and quit again.

I just can't see any reason to keep playing this game. My wife thinks it's funny, but doesn't mind as long as I know where my priorities are, but I feel stupid when running an instance and someone else is saying their parents are making them get off for bed. Or other people are talking about how they lost their job cause they overslept again after running something the night before.

Guess I'll go back to my other crack - Windows programming.

LF1M for run of VisualStudio.

Re:Sounds nice enough to back - almost

[skrolle2]

"Go halfway around the world go get X and bring it back. Oh you did that...go back to where you were and get y. Oh..thanks...now go back and get z. Now that you have brought me all 3, go back and kill the mob that you killed twice already getting x,y and z"

This is much, much better in Wotlk than before. Generally, when you get to a new quest-hub, you'll get around two to four quests that can be done close to each other. When you've turned in all of those (they're usually linked) you get a new set of quests that point you to a different area where you can do those quests at the same time.

There is very little of that annoying backtracking, where you didn't know which quests to "combine" and which to save for later so that you could combine it with a better one. Now, you grab all quests, do them all, and you get a decent tour of the entire area. They've really worked hard on this, and it's like this for every zone I've been to so far.

Kill All Humans

[smegged]

I always loved Kill All Humans, the anal probe being my weapon of choice.

Computer games are great for letting you be the evil opposite of yourself.

Re:Kill All Humans

[walnutmon]

Or to stop being your socially adapted, "good" opposite?

hmm...

Re:My Review or why u should never trust reviews

[WillAffleckUW]

- That flying mount you saved up for (worse, if you bought an epic) - can't use it until 77 or so. Bad call. Opportunity to up the ante here: add flight combat based on class! That would also keep people from short circuiting quests, and be awesome.

Hmmm. I'll have to tell my level 55 warrior to stop flying around on the magic broom from the Headless Horseman.

- Not a mage? Can't get to Dalaran until 74 (or so, I haven't done it yet). That's right, a major feature cut out for you while you grind. This really serves just to highlight the grind, not remove it.

Strange, my level 28 Kehrbehr druid has no problems hearthstoning to his home in Dalaran. Just shell out the 10 to 15 gold for a port and visit an Inn. Problem solved.

- Pretty much the minute logged in I was beat with the old problems that caused my entire guild to quit: "Heroic Nexus LF2M, need tank and 1dps (at least 1300DPS!)". Now I happen to have a tank, a healer and a mage, all were well enough geared for heroics in TBC... but I remember this all too well. Damage meters, people not understanding there are multiple ways to play the game, people unwilling to enter a dungeon that they don't outgear (because they don't understand subtlety)...this basically puts you in a place where you only want to play with friends, and you are at the mercy of trying to get 5 adults across 4 timezones, with wives and kids, to block out 1,2,3 hours to do a dungeon.

You don't have to do the dungeons. And at least trade chat no longer has repeated calls for people to enchant their weapon with icy chill or fiery enchants so it will have a cool glow - you can now buy the scrolls in item enhancement to do it for you (and any scribe can make the armor vellum or weapon vellum for an enchanter to cast it on the scroll). Man, that saves a LOT of time.

To try and grow a guild of like minded people is entirely more frustrating: dungeons come in 5, 10 and 25 and need to be approached with the maximum allowable team (assuming you don't outgear them), as a group with approximately equal gear within what someone defines as reason. The result is a lot of people are left off and get bored with the game. You can't grow a guild of responsible adults, because you can't play the game, have fun, and be responsible at the same time.

I frequently join in with 5-10 people who aren't even in my guild - that's what the /friend option is for. When they need to do a giant dungeon, they just shout out to friends who are eligible to join in, and they invite their guild members - saves a lot of time and it's fun to have a multi-guild group, since they can replace people who have to drop with other guildees.

Nothing in WoTLK addresses the elitist mentality the game has been designed for. The belief that only the hardcore deserve to be included in higher end dungeons and raids. The best you can do is join a large casual guild, put up with (and play) the politics, and go as far as a mob mentality will allow (usually only 1 or 2 tiers). Plus deal with people who aren't very smart and don't understand the game, but who are what you have to work with. This means damage meters, pvp specs in raids, weird and self-nerfing specs, people fighting over gear, etc.

I don't know about you, but I find dungeons especially boring. My son loves them, but I don't. You can pile on the add-ons and do it if you want, but it's still totally optional.

Alternative take

[RogueyWon]

I've put a lot of hours into WotLK since it came out and feel reasonably well qualified to comment on it.

Basically, I think it's a bit of a mixed bag. A kind of 6 on 10, work in progress sort of thing, with some nice ideas, but a few things that still need to be resolved and a few other things that desperately needed to be resolved before launch.

I'll start with the 70-80 levelling grind. After recently levelling an alt from 1-70 (after they nerfed the entire xp grind from 20+) this came as a real shock to the system. This grind is long and it is slow. Moreover, you are basically forced to do an overwhelming majority of it through solo questing. This is a stark contrast to Burning Crusade, where even before they nerfed the xp gaps, you could quite plausibly level from 60-70 in the new 5 man instances, with a single run granting a sizeable fraction of a level. In WotLK, if you do a 5 man instance for xp, you will get maybe 15% of a level at best for the first run, and then 5-7% or so for subsequent runs. With each run taking, on average, 45 minutes, this is just not a productive way to level up, compared to solo questing. It's clear that Blizzard want to force everybody to play through the story they've written for the new areas solo, grouping up only for the occasional instance or group quest. I have two problems with this. First, to be honest, the plot isn't really that great. Sure, it's kinda cool to see some of the old plot strands from WC3 crop back up, but ultimately, it's still the same old sub-Tolkien crap. As a former FFXI player, I can't help but feel that plot isn't really Blizzard's strong point, compared to Square-Enix. That said, the cutscene you get at the end of the Dragonblight quests was a pleasant surprise.

My second problem is that if I wanted to run around on my own doing solo quests, I probably wouldn't be playing World of Warcraft. After all, the same experience can be had far better in any number of offline RPGs, which are specifically tailored for solo play. My abiding memory of levelling from 70-80 is of it being a profoundly lonely experience (despite me having an active guild that was farming Kil'Jaeden before WotLK hit). Of course, this isn't to say I wasn't seeing plenty of other players. Of course I was. I was having to compete with them for every fucking pull of every fucking quest mob. Sorry for the bad language, but I can't really think of any other way to convey just how furious I got at Blizzard's complete failure to mitigate the inevitable effects of hundreds of new players on every server swarming into the start zones at once. This isn't the first time Blizzard have done this; they should know better by now.

So yes, the overall levelling experience is somewhat let down by Blizzard's ego tripping with regards to the plot and some really questionable design decisions.

Fortunately, on hitting 80, things do get better. The instances are generally good. Heroics, in particular, are a lot of fun, although as a Paladin, I'm still frustrated by how many of them like to throw damage on every member of the party at once, meaning that we Paladins still end up as the least desired healers for this stuff (though we do now perform better in raids). Blizzard have further developed the neat "roughly an hour" instance layout that they introduced in Burning Crusade for 5 mans and it works very well. The only 5-man instance I don't think has been properly thought through is the Oculus, where Blizzard tried something very different, which just didn't quite work. Can't blame them for trying, though.

The main raiding content at the moment is Naxxramas, resurrected from the original, pre-expansion game, where only the very top end players saw it. I can see why they wanted to bring it back; for the most part, it is an excellent starter instance with some fun fights. That said, it is showing its age in a few respects. Some of the wings, particularly abombination/construct wing, have some really long and annoying runs back if you have a wipe. Burning Crusade instances la

I'm just waiting for you all to get bored

[WillAffleckUW]

So I don't have to hear the sounds of rotten fruit every time I visit Ogrimmar.

And you stop bugging me about Death Knight glyphs - no, I'm only level 199 in inscription, go whine about it in Dalaran or someplace where people care.

But I love the armored bears.

now listen to this

[unity100]

im impressed with this expansion to such an extent that, i have decided to level a low level warrior i had to level 68 (optimal level to enter northrend) and do the northrend first with him. because a warrior is much more fit within the saga context of lich king.

this is despite i have a 73 rogue, 72 shaman that are well geared and had done the first 2 zones of northrend.

that is because good content games are SO rare nowadays that, if you find one, you have to make the most out of them like there's no tomorrow.

now, believe me when i say this - i HATE the guts of leveling and grinding. it was total pain to get those 2 70 chars to 70 over the course of 2 years for me.

but, as im leveling the warrior now through shitty vanilla and burning crusade wow content, i find that im even able to put up the shitty grind (despite it is 30% faster now due to an adjustment blizzard made), when i think that sometime soon i will be properly running this toon through the expansion in a total movieish context.

now, thats the kind of game i like to play. it was a long time coming since kotor series -> in the sense of being 'a labor of love', dont get me wrong.

Am i alone?

[elmer at web-axis]

With the premise of a MMO always adding new content and 'never getting old' I totally understand why people pay for MMO access (i used to be a great warcraft fan) but when the first expansion came out a little question was raised in my mind. Why is Blizzard charging me a extra lump of money so I can play new content? Isn't the monthly subscription i pay meant to cover the costs of delivering new content? I pushed these thoughts out of my mind when i thought how long warcraft had been around before TBC came out. But when blizzard announced a 2nd expansion not too long after I decided enough was enough and stopped my subscription. With the structure of the expansions it's impossible to play the game without getting the expansion and I was sick of paying a monthly subscription for a game that didn't deliver new content but instead forced you to buy another game to continue.
Am i alone in my thoughts? Have other players decided that enough is enough and quit playing because of this?

Re:Am i alone?

[Qetu]

Yes, you're alone.

In all seriousness

[DRAGONWEEZEL]

What would that content look like? (the non -grind) how would that work?

How would non-raid endgame work? (it is an MMO... so I assume you don't mean "Solo" the endgame)

Re:In all seriousness

[lgw]

"Endgame" is whatever you do after you reach the max level. There's nothing at all wrong with a "solo" endgame - plenty of people like to play MMOs solo. The point is, the endgame shouldn't be any one thing. Raiding is great - lets have some raid content. Some people like solo content - lets have some of that too. But, that all misses the point a bit - what do you do in WoW after you have top-tier PvE gear? What do you use that gear for? What's the point of it all?

WoW doesn't really *have* a PvE endgame. WoW has an endless grind to reach max level+gear+faction, with nothing to do once you have.

What an MMO needs to have a non-grind endgame is something to *do* once you can no longer advance your character. Plenty of MMOs have PvP for this purpose, and there's some rich PvP content out there, but many people don't enjoy PvP at all. More generally, there are 3 kinds of endgame content available:

* Competitions with other players (doesn't have to be *combat* at all) for fame.
* Accumulation of wealth and power (ability to personnally influence the plotline of your server) - Eve Online makes good use of this.
* Explore new areas and see new things.

As an example of the first point: there's a pod-racing track in the desert, almost as a joke, with little associated quests or anything. Why can't i compete in the pod races, build and tune my own racer, etc. Use the existing engine and existsing world to add a full new game, with a really minimal amount of design effort. With Bliz's resources they could add a new game like that every month.

The last one is very important. Most pencil-and-paper RPGs would still be fun even if there were no character advencement, given a good game master. Current MMOs are stuck on the model of vastly expensive content creation, much like the early days of D&D where a gamemaster would make elaborate maps beforehand of any adventure areas. Dynamic/Random map creation is old hat now, allowing for *very* large worlds, and cheap creation of hand-tuned adventure areas.

The only thing stopping MMO companies from turning out new content as fast as the players can find and consume it is this mindset. The technology is there today to create new adventure areas as fast as the writiers can come up with interesting plots and characters - there's no need to create new artwork, mosters, etc, (any faster than today - eventually art gets stale) in order to create vast amounts of new content, much like a veteran pencil-and-paper gamemaster can create an entire new planet with just a few weeks prep time.

Re:In all seriousness

[DRAGONWEEZEL]

Thanks for your perspective. I wasn't attacking just trying to get an idea of what those pieces should look like. If I worked for blizz, I'd definately take your opinions to heart! Thanks for your input,

DW

Re:In all seriousness

[lgw]

Hmm, haven't we can this conversation before, or was that a different dragon-weasle? And do you happen to remember the name of the kids cartoon that had dweasles (dragon weasles) as sidekicks of the bad guy/gal?

Re:In all seriousness

[DRAGONWEEZEL]

sorry, been busy @ work. Might have been me. Dunno...

I had no clue that there was a kids cartoon w/ DWs! That's too funy.

I got my name because when I was a kid, I blew fire, and laughed at Pauley Shore. Originally it was a different front word, but that word became used as slang for "gratuitous homosexuality." (I was just a kid and got sick of pervs on the BBSs). So the DW was born. This current nick has been in use since ~ 1996 ish.

Again, ty for your comment.

My perspective is that there is tons of room for expansion into methods like you said. Instead of each xpac being about a "new land" make one that puts you back into the old cities. revisiting your original trainer, and performing quests w/ them. Race pod's in the desert. and god forbid, allow flight over azeroth!

I am guessing that the reason they won't allow flight is because there is a lot of "unfinished" work in azeroth. (expansion zones?) When you could cliffwalk, I explored the whole world, it was a weird twisted drive but i wanted to see everywhere. I saw some neat things too! one of them was a HUGE blank open area.

This is not glaring

[smegged]

Glaring is the graphical glitches in the casting animations in WAR. They are so bad that it kills your sense of immersion. These are minor oversights at best.

Stanford experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

With respect, your mistaken belief that people wouldn't act the same in reality (and that money is a motivator) is completely at odds with observed behavior - see Stanford experiment. The one where someone thought, "Hey, I know! Let's have these college kids play cops and robbers and study their behavior based on arbitrary circumstance dictating roles," and the results were so horrifying that not only did the experiment get shut down in about a day or two, but basically every Western experiment has been crippled since in both scope, audacity, and informed consent waivers (Stanford had waivers too).

Re:Stanford experiment

[Opportunist]

True, but I also believe that only a certain kind of people volunteered to "play" the guards. People who want power and who have a certain inclination towards sadism. When you cut them loose from the boundaries of social norm, they will act accordingly.

Replica Frostmourne Sword

[davcorp]

FYI, you can purchase an authentic replica of the sword of the Lich King @ http://www.epicweapons.com/

Just when I thought /. was at maximum nerdity.

[bluphysted]

Ding! Grats.

I'm sorry but it's about style!

[emanem]

I'm sorry mate, but you can't say that the graphics are 2003. The polycount is massive, and the use of shaders is predominant too. Imho they did a great thing, because the style is always the same between vanilla/tbc/wotlk, but, as example, on my 8600 GT vanilla runs at average 60 FPS, tbc average 35, wotlk average 25. If you don't like the style I'm fine with that. But this graphic has been properly chosen to br 13+ rated. If you ever saw the first screenshots of WarCraft III RoC (the strategic game), they tried at first to use a realistic looking style, but then they choose to realy on the cartoon style. It's a matter of style, not a technologic limit. Cheers,

Re:I'm sorry but it's about style!

[Fross]

I have no problem with the graphics, I like the style. But they do not compare even closely with the top graphic game titles of the last year. Far Cry 2, Fallout 3 and so on. They're not even closing on Oblivion, hence my comment.

I appreciate they're trying to improve it, but in some ways that makes it seem more dated, if you see what I mean.

Pickup basketball league

[Alarindris]

I quit basketball when I started making the following statements...

"I HAVE to play so Bigsilly can practice his layups"
"I HAVE to play, they're one short for the tournament"
"I HAVE to play, so my skills improve."

I had an ingame friend make the comment once that it's like a pickup basketball league for people that play video games.

It's a hobby, don't feel guilted by the rest of society that says the only acceptable hobbies are hiking, birdwatching, sports, or photography.

Sounds more like you just have a problem with commitment and/or teamwork.

get over it

[Anonymous Coward]

I found both sides of the discussion between austerity empowers and sydshamino interesting. bugnuts and anarke inc., if you're not interested--DON'T READ. No point in trying to discourage other people from talking. Unless you're a troll. Or, you know, a dick.

Re:get over it

[Anarke_Incarnate]

The problem, as presented, was a "Waaaaah" type of complaint. They complain, ad nauseum about a game that many many people enjoy. They want the game to give them everything up front. This is the same complaining I heard when KoToR came out: "WAAAAAAAH, I wants my light saber right now, why must I learn anything about the game, character, world, setting, and such. Just let me smash things" Sure, that works for some people, but the others who want a game with a sense of immersion will be disappointed. If you don't like it, don't play it and move on. The Warcraft franchise has done exceptionally well. WoW is still popular years after release with lots of paying customers. Sure, there are things worthy of complaining about, like queue times at launch, buggy quest lines or other issues as such. However, saying "I want the game to do this, and that, and not be WoW but something else is not helpful criticism. It is instead an approach of stale and nothingness towards a game that has an effect on people of somewhat immersing them in a pretend, fantasy world, and allowing them to view it, and interact with other players via typed and voice chat. If you don't like it, spend your money on something else. Don't complain, as many do, that they are not overpowered ubertoons that want to hack and slash through the game with ease, then complain it was too short and too easy. Yes, this expansion is Wrath of the Lich King. It is not "Kill the Lich king in 24hrs or less" or "Lich King Tycoon." If you think that a badass like the Lich King will die in the first month, don't play WoW. You know nothing about it.

Re:get over it

[Austerity Empowers]

Every complaint is "Waaah!". The entire point is to highlight the flaws so that they can get fixed. Blizzard has demonstrated an ability to fix some flaws with MMOGs - prior to WoW EQ was (arguably) the dominant MMOG. It was viewed as inconceivable by forum trolls (which you run dangerously close to), to have a game where you didn't have to grind as a group to level up, and which took less than an eternity to do a dungeon. Blizzard took a look at that, copied the good parts and mostly fixed the bad. By comparison EQ doesn't exist now, a few still play it but it's mostly dead. That doesn't mean they've made it perfect, and since WoW launched they've taken a lot of bad turns some of which feels to me like a bait and switch - group caps and dungeon class requirements being MORE difficult and MORE unapproachable than EQ ever was.

I'm going to ignore their alleged 10M subscribers, since I'm not sure how much of that number includes all my RL friends whose accounts have expired and don't play anymore (in fact I'm the only one to have even BOUGHT wotlk). I'm sure it doesn't include a large body of mostly console gamers who may have tried WoW but won't play it because of the time investment. The fact is it's losing what it had, it's not reaching many new people, and I believe it is fixable not a "natural progression of a game aging". A mmog doesn't NEED to age. It does need to address problems which drive people away, and keep new people from joining.

Some of the complaints I have are just stupid and unoriginal design choices, the pinnacle of which is not being able to use the very expensive and very useful flying mounts form the last expansion. The only good argument is that it allows you to "skip content", but I'm not sure what that means. There's no scenario in which I can see using a flying mount to skip content that produces a good result for me, or in which I couldn't do so equally well by walking. There are two carrots for doing content: gear and xp. A third carrot for some (including me): to follow the plotline. This last one i have issue with (i.e. there never has been a compelling story line, so I wouldn't expect there to be one now), but it's a digression. The bottom line is, unless they made boneheaded design choices, there's no reason not to allow us to use the mount. I want to travel fast, I paid good money and levelled up to the point where I could buy the mount, I should be able to use it. I believe lack of creativity is what drove this choice, and we should be outraged.

The rest of my complaints hinge around WoW being designed around a target audience that isn't anyone I personally know. Maybe WoTLK is better for me, and I'm not giving it a fair chance. But having been burnt by WoW for so long, history clouds my sight and I don't see anything from my visitations to Northrend that changes my view. I'm not seeing any great promises from Blizzard to acknowledge the error of their ways, or in fact any hint that they're doing anything different.

I want to see something really big. I want to see them make a server, perhaps called "Ranked" which has all the really hard content, long grinds, and WoW as it is today. let those people get scored,rated, ranked...their achievements tracked. Give them beta access, etc. Then have the EZ mode servers for the rest of us. Something where in 6-8 months playing 10 hours a week we can see and do everything, one way or another. I want to see no group size caps on any instance (up to whatever limits there may be on client performance), I want faction and money to never be an issue gating progression to the lich king. I want fewer but more storyline related "kill 10 poobahs". In general I want the same game, but with fewer time sinks and more approachable content for people who want to play the class they want, with the people they want, without half as much politicking and frustration. For the crowd who likes that, and who wants to "work" on a game, there are the ranked servers.

I don't know why it's necessary to endure that crap if I'm never going to be able to see the end. I'm not sure why I want to pay for expansions to subsidize a small but vocal subset of people whose entire life revolves around synthetic frustration.

Re:get over it

[Anarke_Incarnate]

I agree that complaints need to be addressed. If something is broken, by all means, complain until it is fixed. However, do not complain if the mere fact that you are in an expansion and not "UberTron, killer of all things elite" anymore. I have complaints about WoTLK. Aside from issues in some dungeons with bad players, I have been able to solo things, at lower level, than I probably should have. Maybe some of it was my understanding of the game mechanics, I don't know.

I LIKE the idea, in some regards, that you are not allowed to use the flying mounts from the last expansion. I have found that my ability to fly right over areas has gone way up since I got mine. I could not afford an epic flying mount at the last expansion. I was a tank and my repair costs, plus enchant/gem costs were too high.

I got mine in about 2 weeks in the expansion and when I got to 77, I was able to get my gold up over 1K and get to flying. It gives you something to look forward to. You cannot simply have everything handed to you or it becomes meaningless. Would you rather if they made you use a "Cold weather flying mount" like a "Giant Snow Puffin" or something? Going on the ground means you may get the attention of monsters down there. You see things differently and I think that it adds something, albeit with some frustration. The overall, for me, was positive.

As for the bringing as many friends as you want to an instance, that is a bad dynamic. Those who do not have the ability to bring more will feel cheated and those who bring 9 or 10 will slam through it like a hot knife through butter. Maybe we want to play for different reasons, but I like to feel like I overcame something and beat it. I don't want to just EZMODE my ass through a dungeon where it is tuned for 5 but I brought 9. It is too hard to dynamically tune a dungeon for the amount you bring. It was hard enough for Blizzard to tune 25 and 10 man versions of content.

If you want a collection-fest of things that are handed to you, this is not the game. You could always go AFK in a few PVP battlegrounds and grab some welfare epics, though.

Re:get over it

[Anonymous Coward]

Every complaint is "Waaah!". The entire point is to highlight the flaws so that they can get fixed. Blizzard has demonstrated an ability to fix some flaws with MMOGs - prior to WoW EQ was (arguably) the dominant MMOG.

That's not the type of complaint I was talking about when I said to STFU after you quit. The reasons for leaving are fine to point out to blizzard so that they can fix it (should they deem it in the best interest of the game as a whole), as long as you aren't just doing it to belabor the point. Often, your point could be made and understood, but the game dev and their fans might not agree anyway.

The complaints I was referring to were the folks that leave for some reason, and then assume anyone that doesn't leave for that same reason to be in need of enlightenment.

It's basically saying "I don't like sponge bob, so I won't watch the movie", and then berating all the sponge bob fans for being stupid to continue paying money to see the movie. It's really the whiner in need of enlightenment, and that was in my post: quit paying, and stfu. The fox fable was appropriate for the people I'm talking about. Some people were miserable playing the game, and assume anyone else still enjoying the game must really be miserable.

--bugnuts

Re:get over it

[Austerity Empowers]

I attacked only Soulskill's review because it is blatant marketing material, right up into the "what the next expansion brings", that was a truly terrible review. If you are going to review something, you need to point out blatant deficits. To get a 9/10 the product has to be really excellent and groundbreaking but have some small defects, that's not what WoTLK is (or what most games that get 9/10 reviews are).

You need to say at least "they don't let you use your flying mount until 77, however it works because...", if indeed you feel it works. I don't, I think it's a huge miss. I think the intent of a flying mount is to traverse a lot of land quickly, and if the designers don't wish you to do that, either do not add flight, or use some other mechanic to make you wish to stay grounded. As it stands, I feel its really just to ensure that you have to endure the time sink of getting from a-b by fighting a bazillion mobs, repeatedly.

Some people really like this game as it is, I can't imagine they'd be hurt if it were easier thus I don't know why they care, but I do know a few very competitive people who think they and they alone deserve the top rewards. It seems that the game is designed for that crowd, particularly manifested in the arena system but also the PvE achievement system (1st to do x), so why not give them their own server to play on? Let it be as hard or harder than the game is now... give them the visibility they crave for doing it.

I don't want to be held to that standard and to suffer with it. I do want EZ-mode after a fashion. The game does not have to hand me the item, if there is an enjoyable and reasonable set of obstacles to obtain it. I'm happy to work to 80, but not if quests all boil down to time sinks. Focus on the new and original quests and the storylines - if a quest is just there to soak up time, eliminate it. As it is, on my first WoTLK quests, I've already killed 10 raiders, then waded back through those same raiders to kill their boss, then waded through them again to get to some serpent, etc. That could have been reduced to "Kill raider boss", "Go to serpent (on your flying mount)". I didn't mind helping the walrus-men out, but I'd rather the quests be oriented towards their main goal rather than a bunch of redundant subtasks. I can kill 10 people just getting to the boss... why make me do all the running around? If the quests that comprise my entrance to Northrend are to save the Walrus-men, why not present that, at once as a battle plan?

In general a good part of my solo complaint is that if the item is blocked solely by arbitrary goals (kill 1000 weasels, farm 2M faction, collect 100000 items) you would lose nothing by changing that to (kill the weasel, farm a faction, collect an item) except cutting the time down. In this game, if you can do something N times, you can do it N+1 times, so why beat around the bush?

I do like a subset of the game as it exists and I want to see my complaints addressed so I can enjoy the game. If you like the game, and have time to play it, I have no quarrel with you. If you insist the game has to be this much of a sink because you need to separate the boys from the men, then yes I do. If you can kill 1 guy, you can kill 10 guys, without learning anything, it's just more work and you're not getting paid for it. I'd buy your argument if, in the process of learning to kill those 10 guys you were, in some way, learning to play your class more intelligently. That's never been the case. In fact you learn almost no group skills by soloing, almost no raid skills by grouping, and all the permutations therein.

There's a lot of good to the game that justifies it's popularity, I still think it's the best PvE mmog out there. It's definitely polished, the client is excellent. I personally love LUA and the scripting aspect (and hate how WAR nerfed it so badly - again, if a player can automate something essential, you have a gameplay bug, don't kill the messenger). But let's not pass WoTLK off as anything other than a mediocre expansion to a game that hasn't always aged well. There are lots of misses, they aren't being (obviously) addressed, and the door is still open for someone to go eat Blizzard's lunch. We should not let them have a free pass.

Did you fetch the Holy Hand Grenade?

[Hoi Polloi]

Oblig MP quotes:

"That's no ordinary bunny!"

"That rabbit's dynamite."

Confused about Grinding claims

[VickiM]

I've been playing WoW for a few years now, casually. I consider myself kind of a hard-core casual gamer. I take it easy, but I play lots.

I'm very confused about people claiming that there's no more grind. I beg to differ! There is an almost constant grind for profession items, especially since the expansion. Prices have gone sky-high. People who've spent the last few months doing dailies and raids with their level 70 characters are buying mats off the auction hall for their Death Knights, making it impossible for casual players to match the costs. So every time I log in with my 54 shaman, I run around looking for Thorium. Sometimes I do a quest on the side. This game is vastly different for the end-game players and the casual players, and it's painfully obvious here.

I find it telling that the two people I know who play the most watch TV while they play (unless they're in a raid). Obviously, I find some enjoyment in the game, having played for years and years, but I'm not going to pretend that it's more than it is. It's a way to play a game and spend time with friends near and far. If I get and I don't have someone to chat with, I'm not on more than 4 or 5 minutes. I'd rather play Harvest Moon and grind for turnips.

Re:Huh? What's all this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is Warhammer still just grinding PQ's while waiting for scenarios to pop?

Still no puzzles

[geekoid]

Come on. put some puzzles in the game.

In spite of all the crap in the game, at least DDO had some decent Puzzles. They could have been harder*

They are a Fantasy game staple.

Also let me dictate the color of what I wear.

*Yes, some people will say that 'hard' puzzles will prevent some people from playing. This statement is completly ignorant of puzzle players.

There are two kinds. The person who live to figure it out, and the person who looks up answers online.
As some who like puzzles, I wouldn't look it up, but have no problem with people who do.

Two steps back

[kieran]

The weird thing about learning a WoW raid is that it's distrurbingly similar to learning a line-dance.

Re:Aw, man...

[brkello]

I kind of pictured Slashdot as above judging others for the pass times they enjoy. Guess we were both wrong.

Two Probs with WoW Still

[Anonymous Coward]

Good review. The Lich King release has some awesomeness to it especially the graphics, music, and story lines. However there are two significant problems that haven't been resolved.

1. THE WoW Catch22:
        The only way to get epic gear is to run Heroic Dungeons/Raids. The only way you can run Heroics is if you already have epic gear.

        Other players have determined, correctly, that the best chance of finishing a heroic is with the best geared players. It is frustrating as hell to make 80, finish most of the LK quests (22 to go), and still not be geared well enough to run heroics.

2. Massive lack of healers
          Adding a new tank/dps class, Death Knight, was great. Fixing the Protection Warriors was awesome, they're a riot to run now. However the Healer classes need a fix ASAP.

          I'm not sure how to even go about fixing them though. Adding a hero class would require a major patch. Rebuilding the skill boards isn't trivial either. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

WOW GOLD

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice job! thanks for your information.

-----
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Re:Glaring holes? No, there are no missing recipes

[Little Hamster]

They are not missing. You should check online databases like thottbot and wowhead first before blaming blizzard for your missing collection. I know multiple guildies who have completed this achievement. Proof? It's easy, in this day of achievement-enabled armory.

Re:Glaring holes? No, there are no missing recipes

[Talderas]

I've already done that.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39644#comments

So you link me the armory of a user who has only completed Northrend Gourmet for cooking 15 of the recipes. Nice supporting evidence, besides which I looked at the northrend gourmet for 30 recipes and I see that none of the 4 recipes that have been classified as missing by so many WoW players have been cooked by the player.

If you're going to try to make a point, at least show someone who has actually completed the Northrend Gourmet achievement for 45 recipes, or has the tracked achievement showing one of the four recipes cooked.