" they are burning through cash faster than they can earn it"
Given where they started from, the scale of what they're trying to accomplish and the schedule I don't think that even break-even was possible. While the losses of the past 4 quarters have been particularly horrendous, it was exacerbated by the difficulty of ramping the Model 3 and hoarding cars in this past quarter to avoid triggering the phaseout of the $7.5k tax credit.
But now they claim to be producing 5000 Model 3 per week and 2000 S & X combined. Let's say that rate can't be sustained for the full latter 1/2 of 2018 and take 80% of it so 5600 * 26 = 145600 cars by end of years PLUS the 13k that were produced but not delivered in Q2. That's more cars than they were able to make in the 17 quarters after the 2012 launch of Model S or about $360 million revenue per WEEK.
I think giving money to the GOP (which is a disgusting organization) is a big deal. You fanboys can rationalize anything, but I can't side with a guy who gives money to the very people who are helping to destroy this country.
He's a businessman and the GOP has had a lock on Congress for years and put a corrupt narcissist into the Oval Office. Elon may get away with calling a foreign diver a pedo but he dare not even hint that Trump would happily bang Ivanka like a screen door. He's up against a lot serious players with much deeper and fighting lawsuits in multiple states to overturn dealership laws. He needs to at least try to placate those dangerous lunatics.
"The tweets came after a separate report in the Financial Times that Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund had taken a 3%-5% stake in Tesla, a holding worth at least $1.9bn."
Tesla knowingly lied about their defective auto pilot system.
That's not at all certain but we do know that GM lied repeatedly about what became the ignition scandal and withheld all info on it even after they were under government control
"Do you realize this whole hatred of the "shorts" was all Elon's bullshit?" That's bullshit alright but not entirely Elon's. Short-sellers have been trash-talking Tesla's plans & performance for years. Yes they were losing money while building a car company from nothing but a discounted building but plenty of auto companies have had rough rides without people like Cramer, Chanos, Spiegel et al trashing them at every turn.
" Musk has proven to me what a loathsome person he is" Your shorts are too tight. He made a very offensive remark to someone who openly denigrated his efforts to help WHEN *REPEATEDLY* ASKED to get involved. Musk didn't pick that fight but he did overreact. And he's since apologized. Where is the apology from Unsworth for telling Musk to stick his supposedly useless mini-sub up his ass? OTOH I would like to see Musk keep his promise to demonstrate that the sub would have worked after all.
And where are they sourcing lithium, cobalt, rare earth metals? Any consequences?
They've been reducing the amount of cobalt required, down from 11 kg per car for the original Roadster and early Model S to 7 kg for S and X beginning in 2016 and an estimated 4.5 kg for the Model 3
"Tesla has been investing in some research into longevity of the batteries. So far it looks like they can maintain 80% charge after 800,000km traveled for the car batteries. I'm not sure how that translates to the stationary batteries, because they have different power cycles, and a different chemistry optimized for their use, but overall should be pretty good" I'm not convinced that Tesla's NCA battery cells are best suited for this use long-term; LiFePO4 should be much better and the greater number needed because of lower energy density should be offset by the lower cost and compactness is not such a big factor in large scale energy storage.
"If GM took EVs seriously starting when they produced EV-1 and kept going until now, there would be no need for a Tesla. The fact that GM discarded any lead they might have had is more meaningful than how many internal combustion cars they can make"
Toyota cucked themselves, too. If they worked diligently at making the Prius approach the RAV4 EV battery pack capacity over the past 2 decades and made it plug-in capable a decade sooner, they would OWN the EV market.
"You'll see the way non-hybrid, non-EV gas or diesel trucks are advertised change overnight. They will never talk about their towing power again. The low end torque of the electric blows everything else in the consumer market away"
The advantage for towing will probably be claimed by hybrids. Long distance towing at highway speed is too much for the currently available Li-on battery packs. For the Model X, towing 3500 lbs at 60 mph will probably cut your range by 40-60% depending on road condition & weather
"but, in either 2019 or 2020, Tesla is supposed to have their truck out." And I think you meant Model Y, not the Tesla Truck - or did you mean Tesla Semi? If Musk & Straubel are telling the truth they'll still be struggling to meet demand for the S3X mobiles, they'll need a place to build the Semi and they'll still be trying to make enough battery cells for Model 3, PowerPacks and PowerWalls
It's my understanding most of the people on the list really wanted the $35K model and are now losing interest and bowing out because Must hasn't delivered on it.
Quite a few were holding out for the AWD / dual-motor which is now being delivered. I imagine there'll be significant demand for the base ($35k) model with dual motor but those will have to wait until next year which means a Federal tax credit of at most $1900
Almost as bad as the "pedo guy" comment, even if he did finally come to his senses and apologize. I've engaged with several of the most opinionated SeekingAlpha contributors who paint doom & gloom for Tesla and Montana Skeptic was by far the most cautious and reasonable one even if he was derisive of the cars and the overall plan. As an experienced commercial lawyer, I imagine he felt that Musk was rushing headlong too quickly and accumulating too much debt to ever be profitable with Chapter 11 restructuring. He was always clear in his articles that shorting Tesla is a dangerous game for the faint of heart and the foolhardy and that his own shorts were only by long-dated puts, early 2020 if memory serves. There were other shorts who claim to have made fortunes shorting Tesla like frequent SA comment poster NYC1965 who claims to have made over 1/2 a million shorting Tesla.
The couple Model 3s I've seen up close on the street didn't have any obvious external flaws but it's clear that Tesla's quality control is very erratic. That has to change. They are or have become capable of building cars well but the constant deathmarch to ever greater production is a serious detriment to quality.
"Each car maker gets the same number of subsidies, Ford and GM have sold fewer cars that qualify for the subsidy"
GM got more than enough gov't help and have considerable experience with EVs. They shouldn't need more help at all. Ford took $6 billion low-or-no-interest Fed loans to retool and develop more efficient vehicles, a loan which they have yet to repay.
Neither you, Elon, the Thai Navy nor I control the weather. They rightly took advantage of the lull in the rains once they managed pump out sufficient water. If it had gone the other way and the monsoon rains had hit full force, either the boys would be dead or they would have to play the months-long waiting game.
"Earlier in the week, efforts to lower the water levels had generated an air of optimism. During a press conference Thursday, one Thai official suggested that the kids may even be able to "walk out."
Such hopes have now vanished, replaced instead with a mounting sense of urgency. People at the large makeshift camp that now surrounds the caves liken the mood to that of a hostage situation. Dark clouds drift ominously overhead. Weather forecasters predict heavy rains Saturday evening and throughout the week. The chamber in which the boys are located is no longer thought safe. Even if they are given enough food to wait out the rainy season, there is no guarantee that the ledge they are sitting on will not be submerged. There are no easy decisions. But with the flood waters expected to rise in the coming days, a decision will have to be made soon. "The teams there will have a tipping point where they have to make that call to bring them out. To leave them there would almost certainly result in them drowning," said one British mining engineer and experienced cave diver, who did not wish to be named due to the sensitivity of the subject."
Slashdot Mirror
" they are burning through cash faster than they can earn it"
Given where they started from, the scale of what they're trying to accomplish and the schedule I don't think that even break-even was possible.
While the losses of the past 4 quarters have been particularly horrendous, it was exacerbated by the difficulty of ramping the Model 3 and hoarding cars in this past quarter to avoid triggering the phaseout of the $7.5k tax credit.
But now they claim to be producing 5000 Model 3 per week and 2000 S & X combined. Let's say that rate can't be sustained for the full latter 1/2 of 2018 and take 80% of it so 5600 * 26 = 145600 cars by end of years PLUS the 13k that were produced but not delivered in Q2.
That's more cars than they were able to make in the 17 quarters after the 2012 launch of Model S or about $360 million revenue per WEEK.
I think giving money to the GOP (which is a disgusting organization) is a big deal. You fanboys can rationalize anything, but I can't side with a guy who gives money to the very people who are helping to destroy this country.
He's a businessman and the GOP has had a lock on Congress for years and put a corrupt narcissist into the Oval Office.
Elon may get away with calling a foreign diver a pedo but he dare not even hint that Trump would happily bang Ivanka like a screen door.
He's up against a lot serious players with much deeper and fighting lawsuits in multiple states to overturn dealership laws. He needs to at least try to placate those dangerous lunatics.
It was also just announced that the Saudi's purchased a pretty big slice of Tesla:
https://www.bbc.com/news/busin...
"The tweets came after a separate report in the Financial Times that Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund had taken a 3%-5% stake in Tesla, a holding worth at least $1.9bn."
China via Tencent has as big a holding
Tesla knowingly lied about their defective auto pilot system.
That's not at all certain but we do know that GM lied repeatedly about what became the ignition scandal and withheld all info on it even after they were under government control
"Do you realize this whole hatred of the "shorts" was all Elon's bullshit?"
That's bullshit alright but not entirely Elon's.
Short-sellers have been trash-talking Tesla's plans & performance for years. Yes they were losing money while building a car company from nothing but a discounted building but plenty of auto companies have had rough rides without people like Cramer, Chanos, Spiegel et al trashing them at every turn.
" Musk has proven to me what a loathsome person he is"
Your shorts are too tight. He made a very offensive remark to someone who openly denigrated his efforts to help WHEN *REPEATEDLY* ASKED to get involved.
Musk didn't pick that fight but he did overreact.
And he's since apologized. Where is the apology from Unsworth for telling Musk to stick his supposedly useless mini-sub up his ass?
OTOH I would like to see Musk keep his promise to demonstrate that the sub would have worked after all.
And where are they sourcing lithium, cobalt, rare earth metals? Any consequences?
They've been reducing the amount of cobalt required, down from 11 kg per car for the original Roadster and early Model S to 7 kg for S and X beginning in 2016 and an estimated 4.5 kg for the Model 3
"Tesla has been investing in some research into longevity of the batteries.
So far it looks like they can maintain 80% charge after 800,000km traveled for the car batteries.
I'm not sure how that translates to the stationary batteries, because they have different power cycles, and a different chemistry optimized for their use, but overall should be pretty good"
I'm not convinced that Tesla's NCA battery cells are best suited for this use long-term; LiFePO4 should be much better and the greater number needed because of lower energy density should be offset by the lower cost and compactness is not such a big factor in large scale energy storage.
"If GM took EVs seriously starting when they produced EV-1 and kept going until now, there would be no need for a Tesla. The fact that GM discarded any lead they might have had is more meaningful than how many internal combustion cars they can make"
Toyota cucked themselves, too. If they worked diligently at making the Prius approach the RAV4 EV battery pack capacity over the past 2 decades and made it plug-in capable a decade sooner, they would OWN the EV market.
"You'll see the way non-hybrid, non-EV gas or diesel trucks are advertised change overnight. They will never talk about their towing power again. The low end torque of the electric blows everything else in the consumer market away"
The advantage for towing will probably be claimed by hybrids. Long distance towing at highway speed is too much for the currently available Li-on battery packs.
For the Model X, towing 3500 lbs at 60 mph will probably cut your range by 40-60% depending on road condition & weather
"but, in either 2019 or 2020, Tesla is supposed to have their truck out."
And I think you meant Model Y, not the Tesla Truck - or did you mean Tesla Semi?
If Musk & Straubel are telling the truth they'll still be struggling to meet demand for the S3X mobiles, they'll need a place to build the Semi and they'll still be trying to make enough battery cells for Model 3, PowerPacks and PowerWalls
It's my understanding most of the people on the list really wanted the $35K model and are now losing interest and bowing out because Must hasn't delivered on it.
Quite a few were holding out for the AWD / dual-motor which is now being delivered.
I imagine there'll be significant demand for the base ($35k) model with dual motor but those will have to wait until next year which means a Federal tax credit of at most $1900
It is a breakaway republic started by an exiled former government..
That's a giant load of horsefeathers. FYI, Taiwan held a seat at the UN as China until 1971 when Nixon struck a deal with Mao
"You'd have to show that he was being directly influenced by a foreign official or head of state"
All the moves he's made in Russia's favor and the disgusting sycophancy he's shown around Putin is raising and should raise a lot of questions.
Almost as bad as the "pedo guy" comment, even if he did finally come to his senses and apologize.
I've engaged with several of the most opinionated SeekingAlpha contributors who paint doom & gloom for Tesla and Montana Skeptic was by far the most cautious and reasonable one even if he was derisive of the cars and the overall plan.
As an experienced commercial lawyer, I imagine he felt that Musk was rushing headlong too quickly and accumulating too much debt to ever be profitable with Chapter 11 restructuring.
He was always clear in his articles that shorting Tesla is a dangerous game for the faint of heart and the foolhardy and that his own shorts were only by long-dated puts, early 2020 if memory serves.
There were other shorts who claim to have made fortunes shorting Tesla like frequent SA comment poster NYC1965 who claims to have made over 1/2 a million shorting Tesla.
I can only assume that Cisco has moved on from selling to the engineering teams to selling to the c-suite.
That strategy served Microsoft very well back in the day
It's right next to Molvania and Latveria.
Also borders Nambia, Columbia and Denmakr
> Milk is a substance secreted by mammals to feed their young.
Patently false, milk is a substance secreted by cows to make my corn flakes not suck
I've been told that beer or orange juice on corn flakes is pretty good but lemonade & grapefruit juice are awful
Ford promised to pay off it's $5.9 billion loan over 10 years, it wasn't supposed to be paid off by now.
The loan was granted in June 2009 so there's less than 1 year left for Ford to pay it back.
Nope it’s a Kia quality piece of shit.
The couple Model 3s I've seen up close on the street didn't have any obvious external flaws but it's clear that Tesla's quality control is very erratic.
That has to change. They are or have become capable of building cars well but the constant deathmarch to ever greater production is a serious detriment to quality.
What do I want him to do?
He could try to exercise some self-control, like an adult.
Yes, he could. And so could 63-yr old cave diver Vern Unsworth instead of telling Musk - unprovoked - to stick his submarine up his ass.
"Each car maker gets the same number of subsidies, Ford and GM have sold fewer cars that qualify for the subsidy"
GM got more than enough gov't help and have considerable experience with EVs. They shouldn't need more help at all.
Ford took $6 billion low-or-no-interest Fed loans to retool and develop more efficient vehicles, a loan which they have yet to repay.
Neither you, Elon, the Thai Navy nor I control the weather.
They rightly took advantage of the lull in the rains once they managed pump out sufficient water.
If it had gone the other way and the monsoon rains had hit full force, either the boys would be dead or they would have to play the months-long waiting game.
Why does Ford or GM needs more gov't help?
Donald Trump knows what it means.
Yes, clean indestructible coal.
How do you use a fuel that's indestructible?
Remember what I said about circumstances changing quickly in monsoon season?
Here's an update from 1 hour ago
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/07...
"By Steve George, CNN
Updated 12:33 PM ET, Sat July 7, 2018"
"Earlier in the week, efforts to lower the water levels had generated an air of optimism. During a press conference Thursday, one Thai official suggested that the kids may even be able to "walk out."
Such hopes have now vanished, replaced instead with a mounting sense of urgency. People at the large makeshift camp that now surrounds the caves liken the mood to that of a hostage situation.
Dark clouds drift ominously overhead. Weather forecasters predict heavy rains Saturday evening and throughout the week.
The chamber in which the boys are located is no longer thought safe. Even if they are given enough food to wait out the rainy season, there is no guarantee that the ledge they are sitting on will not be submerged.
There are no easy decisions. But with the flood waters expected to rise in the coming days, a decision will have to be made soon.
"The teams there will have a tipping point where they have to make that call to bring them out. To leave them there would almost certainly result in them drowning," said one British mining engineer and experienced cave diver, who did not wish to be named due to the sensitivity of the subject."