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Should the Word 'Milk' Be Used To Describe Nondairy Milk-Alternative Products? (arstechnica.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: The U.S. Food and Drug Administration seems to have soured on nondairy milk-alternative products that use the term "milk" in their marketing and labeling -- like popular soy and almond milk products. In a talk hosted by Politico, FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb announced Tuesday that the FDA will soon issue a new guidance on the use of the term. But he added that products aren't abiding by FDA policies as they stand now. He referenced a so-called "standard of identity" policy that regulates how milk is defined and should be identified. "If you look at our standard of identity -- there is a reference somewhere in the standard of identity to a lactating animal," he said. "And, you know, an almond doesn't lactate, I will confess."
He went on to explain that the issue is that the agency hasn't been enforcing its own policy or putting the squeeze on product makers -- and that it's time to get abreast of the labeling language. But, he admitted, curtailing the wording of non-moo juice labeling isn't an easy task because it means that the agency has to change its "regulatory posture." "I can't just do it unilaterally," Gottlieb said. Hence, the agency is putting together a new guidance for manufacturers to help skim the fat from the market. Gottlieb said the agency will soon tap the public for comments on the terminology and hopes to wring out a new policy within a year.
He went on to explain that the issue is that the agency hasn't been enforcing its own policy or putting the squeeze on product makers -- and that it's time to get abreast of the labeling language. But, he admitted, curtailing the wording of non-moo juice labeling isn't an easy task because it means that the agency has to change its "regulatory posture." "I can't just do it unilaterally," Gottlieb said. Hence, the agency is putting together a new guidance for manufacturers to help skim the fat from the market. Gottlieb said the agency will soon tap the public for comments on the terminology and hopes to wring out a new policy within a year.
The 'juice' inside a coconut has always been called milk AFAIR. It's a natural thing to do, to extend the use of a word to cover something 'similar'. We do it all the time, and in the case of these products which are pitched as cow's mile replacements, there seems even more reason to do so.
Time for bed, said Zebedee - boing
If no, then it should not be allowed to describe a non-dairy product.
Move along, nothing to see here.
I am waiting for APK to show up and call everyone soyboys and not-men for drinking soy milk.
"Almond Flesh Cocktail"
Betteridge's law proves that the answer to the question in the headline is no. You arrived at the correct answer (no) but for obviously the wrong reasons.
Its about time that Washington addresses the real problems that are harming Americans.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
I have tried Almond Milk before and it isn't bad, but I do not think I could drink it if it was called Nut Juice!
Stuff that matters...
Next up: Should liquid soap be called soap or Gel containing Surfactants?
I think maybe a clarification to milk substitute is in order. Do we call water pop, or call beer wine? Milk is milk, and anything other then from a cow should be better defined.
Florida law bars selling milk products that don't have vitamin A added being labeled as milk.
There was an all-natural dairy that didn't want to add vitamin A to their milk, and the state of Florida barred them from labeling their product as "milk".
The legal process is still ongoing:
https://www.orlandoweekly.com/...
that enough of the world's problems have been solved... that we find ourselves having to devote time and energy to "solving" this "problem."
What a time to be alive.
In Soviet Russia jokes are formulaic and decidedly non-humorous.
If its not from a mammary gland, its not milk. Codex Alimentarius already has a defined standard for milk: "the normal mammary secretion of milking animals obtained from one or more milkings without either addition to it or extraction from it, intended for consumption as liquid milk or for further processing."
No one cares what your captcha was
Houston TX, USA
Of course it fucking shouldn't. Milk comes from mammals tits - end of.
This has been a pet peeve of mine for ages.
Unless it comes from the mammary gland of a mammal then by definition it is not milk. If it comes from a plant then it is juice. They use the term "milk" to describe certain types of juices that are sort of white in color (or made artificially so) but they are not and never will be milk. This is nothing but marketing bullshit intended to confuse customers into believing they are somehow substitute products when they aren't and do not share the same properties.
To be clear - soy "milk", almond "milk", coconut "milk", and any other plant derived product that purports to be a milk substitute is not milk and should not be described as milk. Coloring it white does not turn it into milk. Just because you can use it in some of the same applications as milk does not make it milk.
lol.
It's like tits on a boar nut.
The word "milk" to refer to something other than milk produce by an animal is very old. Milk Of Magnesia dates back to 1872. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_hydroxide
The FDA needs to look at a freaking dictionary. Labeling is about confusing. Milk has more than one meaning, and nobody is confused that almond milk isn't dairy milk. If the FDA wants to try to stop companies from calling almond milk milk, they'll be very quickly sued, and very quickly lose.
You have a creimer fetish, which is almost as creepy as APK's "golden wine" fetish.
The 'juice' inside a coconut has always been called milk AFAIR. It's a natural thing to do, to extend the use of a word to cover something 'similar'.
It's not similar and just because something has been done a certain way doesn't make it accurate. If it comes from a plant it is by definition not milk. Milk is a substance secreted by mammals to feed their young. If it doesn't come from a mammal it isn't milk. If it comes from a plant it is juice. So the accurate term is coconut juice.
We do it all the time, and in the case of these products which are pitched as cow's mile replacements, there seems even more reason to do so.
Just because something is a substitute doesn't mean you should call it something different than what it actually is. Margarine is (sometimes) a butter substitute but we don't call it butter. If it is a liquid derived from a plant then it is (generally) supposed to be called juice. Nothing wrong with saying coconut juice or soy juice or almond juice. Just coloring something white doesn't make it milk.
Coconut Milk comes from the pressed pulp.
Coconut water is what you're talking about. And a few years ago it became this fad because some celebrities said it had some sort of health power....magic...or something.
oh man, you DO NOT want to know were malk comes from
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Reminds me of the idiotic "egg replacement" products they sell in the store. They even put a picture of a chicken egg on the carton.
From plain water, to a fully developed male cow, to a Star Destroyer. You assume that others than you are too stupid to grasp the concept of "whitish liquid that comes from nipples" and you want to instate a nanny to guard over people and enforce a nationalist orthodoxy.
There is no such thing as soy milk... it's soy juice..
Non-dairy milk alternatives have an easy solution. Adopt the midwest's pronunciation and just call it "melk". Easy enough, right?
"And, you know, an almond doesn't lactate, I will confess."
With CRISPR, I'm sure that will change soon enough...
Is there nondairy milk-alternative product in my pasteurized process cheese food?
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
Why, yes, yes it is.
When someone says, "Any fool can see
Personally, I'd be a little terrified to meet the mammal that secretes milk glass. Fortunately, the FDA probably won't come after that one, as if you're eating milk glass, you have other more serious problems that need immediate attention.
Pound! Bang! Bin! Bash! is this a shell script or a Batman comic?
Personally I just use the word juice to describe soy based stuff... Like "chocolate soy juice" for example. Sometimes my kid wants milk and sometimes soy or almond or something else so we need to differentiate.
There needs to be a definition. Something simple like Mammal Mammary Sweat = Milk, Squeezed/Pulped Plant = Juice
I think calling all white liquids that can be swallowed as milk, problematic
Calvin:Do you believe in the devil? Hobbes:I'm not sure man needs the help.
Tell us of your MILLION$ (of lies) "phantasies" https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... w/ intellectual honesty, ok?
* You STALK me by UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous (what you're doing now) + IMPERSONATE ME https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... admittedly on your part!
APK
P.S.=> You impersonating me proves you wish you were me & imitation is the sincerest form of flattery - but you = poor imitation... apk
If it doesn't have pus, steroids, and anti-biotics in it, it's not milk.
Will they have to change the name of milk of magnesia?
This whole thing is stupid and the language is changing. Hardly anyone has milked a cow or seen it done. For quite a while consumers have bought products like coconut milk. As well milk of magnesia has been a thing for over a hundred years. The average person is not offended or put off by the terms soy milk or almond milk. I have been to dairy farms and would rather drink a glass of soy milk than cows milk every time. I have seen a cow taken from her calf immediately, tested, and put into production. I have seen the filter before it hits a bulk tank.
malk Now With Vitamin R!
Tell us of your MILLION$ (of lies) "phantasies" https://tech.slashdot.org/comm...
* You admit you IMPERSONATE ME https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... + You STALK me by UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous!
APK
P.S.=> You impersonating me proves you wish you were me & imitation is the sincerest form of flattery - but you = poor imitation... apk
What about Milk of the poppy?
This whole thing makes me sick. I'm going to need to take some white juice of magnesia.
Chocolate milk is milk that tastes like chocolate.
Strawberry milk is milk that tastes like strawberries.
Therefore, something called almond milk should be milk that tastes like almonds.
Cool story, creimer.
they certainly opened a can of worms with declaring themselves ubermenschen in their latest law.
Because there ain't no such thing as soy titty!
--some comedian that one time
If they can't call it milk, they should call it "better-than-milk". That should keep the dairy folks happy.
Yes they did refer to it as almond milk, so there is a record of usage of that test for that purpose going back thousands of years.
The Milky Way is a millenium old trickery to confuse people about the nature of our Galaxy. This should be stopped! Not only Mars Inc., but astronomers have more recently abused common sense with their Milky Way Bar...
kind of pushing the edge of what makes a story 'round here.
In some countries, Bayer still owns trademarks on "Aspirin" and "Milk of Magnesia". In these countries, the generic name for liquid magnesium hydroxide suspension is "cream of magnesia".
Out of curiosity: What name should we instead give to peanutbutter?
I don't see that as a problem since nobody is trying to pretend that peanut butter is somehow a substitute for actual butter. People try all the time to pretend that soy milk and cow's milk are interchangeable when they really aren't.
Also, the word "blog" should not be used for non-diary products.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
The problem is language is fluid. It's been called coconut milk for centuries. Changing it to coconut juice would be more confusing than leaving it alone.
I think the important thing here is the modifier. As long as you are calling it "Almond Milk" or "Soy Milk" it would be pretty obvious to the average consumer that it isn't dairy milk, especially as the already common term "Coconut Milk" is in use.
Doing this is common in many languages. German is famous for mashing existing words together to make new ones.
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
If you English speaking people can call peanut paste "peanut butter" then I don't see why you couldn't call stuff that resembles milk "milk" ;-)
(Note in Dutch we call it peanut cheese :p)
0x or or snor perron?!
While I agree that "we've always done it this way, so we should keep doing it this way" is not an argument,
Correct.
your entire argument seems to be "because 'we've always done it this way, so we should keep doing it this way' is not an argument, we should not keep doing it that way".
You got yourself twisted up in your knickers there trying to pretend you are smart. We already have a perfectly adequate word for consumable liquids derived from plants. We call it juice. Marketing people keep trying to pretend that plant juice somehow becomes milk if it happens to be (or is made to be) white. If it didn't come from a mammal then it by definition is not milk and no amount of marketing BS will make it so. Call products what they are and life is a lot simpler.
Maybe instead of keeping other products from being called milk, milk should be required to label their product as animal secretion.
Milk is just a colloidal suspension of oils, so why not call others milk too?
Betteridge's law yields the answer: no!
Sorry APK you lose again you lying sack of shit. The parent wasn't stalking you with that post, if anything it could be said that you are stalking them. Also parody is not impersonation and that is a very clear parody so you lose again. Good parody is based on the truth which is why the original post is pretty fucking funny as there is some truth in each of those statements. But please continue your unhinged rant and rage against some one who is very likely a completely different person. It is hilarious watching you flip out and make a total ass of yourself the past couple of weeks with your paranoid delusions.
What other verb is so descriptive of providing something of not much value apart from fad hype to consumers at a premium price?
Oh wait, you are referring to the suspension of fat particles in water. Never mind...
Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
By Definition? The number two definition of milk from Websters is "a liquid resembling milk in appearance: such as a) the latex of a plant b) the contents of an unripe kernel of grain."
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
Shall we decree what we call Coke and Pepsi? Is it "pop", "cola", "soda", "soda pop", "soft drink", or just plain "coke"? My guess is government regulations will mandate it be labeled as "Carbonated water with flavoring".
So, can I have a "Carbonated water with cola flavoring from the Coke Classic recipe with rum" for me and a "cow sourced dairy product that has been reduced to 2% dairy fat, homogenized, pasteurized and has had sweetened chocolate flavoring added" for the kid here.
Seriously, this is stupid... Just let me order my "Rum and Coke" and a "Chocolate milk" please.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
What does the naming of non-milk products as milk have to do with tech & nerds?
That's funny.
Actually they have a strict definition of what is peanut butter and what isn't. In the store, next to the peanut butter, you'll see cheaper "peanut spread". This is because the nutritional value of peanut butter is well known (high protein along with sugar, which is fine for growing kids), while the nutritional value of the cheaper peanut spread may be very different.
Well, you can cook with both of them, put them on your cereal, and drink them. How are they not interchangeable?
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
MALK, with Vitamin R
See subject: Your MASSIVE FAIL in this life is you're nothing more than a chattering little do-nothing "ne'er-do-well" online & you know it...
* Is that the best your "phantasyland FAKE NAME" (for your fake lie of a so-called 'life') can manage?
When a FAKE NAME do nothing like YOU does better than I have? Then talk (you're all talk & no action)...
You can't help you're an immature little BUTTHURT no-mind, lol! I blew you away in TONS OF PLACES and easily dust your no-mind bullshit blatherings.
APK
P.S.=> The TRUE PRICE of your UNIDENTIFIABLE FAKE NAME do-nothing selves like you that I can ALWAYS CASH IN ON (lol) is that I can use FACT/TRUTH on them to SHATTER their all TOO fragile delusional egos that they actually know A DAMN THING in computing, lol... apk
you two need to just get a room and get your man love on. You two obviously have a "thing" going and it's getting outright embarrassing. Both of you also seem to think you are somehow considered important. I feel kind of bad for both of you as you sit in your grandmother's basement since your parent finally kicked you out of their basement and now you feel the need to find some kind of self worth with shit posts on slashdot. Problem is you're NOT importand by any stretch of the word.You're just pathetic and the only thing worse than that is a couple of sad individuals that feel the need to bitch about the POTUS in every thread on here. Jesus go get a life. Get a job. Make a little good for yourself
Dear JEALOUS "Lil' Jowie" (lmao): Your "ILLOGIC-LOGIC"'s astounding! Posting as me IS impersonating me stupid. You're ranting/raving, not I, you unhinged LOON!
* You impersonating me only PROVES you WISH you were me & now you're STALKING ME by your UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous troll posts too, whacko!
(Obsessed Whacko's like you do NOT reason properly - your post I reply to now PROVES that much, clearly...)
APK
P.S.=> Crackpot's abound - you're no exception... apk
The point of standard of identity regulations is so that consumers aren't fooled into buying one thing when they think they are buying another. It's consumer-friendly regulation. It prevents companies from selling margarine as "butter".
But "soy milk", "almond milk" and "coconut milk" are the proper English names for those things; everybody knows they don't come out of a cow -- in fact that's the whole point of those products. So why is the administration looking at this question?
It's the kind of regulatory position that's "business friendly" to friendly businesses. While big agribusiness donated more to Clinton (because they wanted TPP), dairy and meat backed Trump. You can see the Trump adminstration cares about dairy; we're probably going to have a trade war with Canada over milk.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
It is TEETHpaste!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
No, YOU like it (I give you what you wanted): You keep obsessively STALKING me (or impersonating me) in your "StRaNgE" obsession you have w/ me, after all - what else could ANYONE surmise except you are homosexually ATTRACTED to me?
APK
P.S.=> Sorry, I am NOT gay & I bet that rather "disappoints" you, lol... apk
Just like "krab" is used for the imitation crab meat made from whitefish, we should use the word "milc" for imitation milk made from soy, almond, etc.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
oh ghod, let's not open THAT can of worms!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
That's because they mis-labeled Palestinians.
Have gnu, will travel.
USDA is not trying to teach us what "Milk" means. They're trying to show FDA who's boss.
FDA already regulates the term "Milk". see 21cfr131.110
If you say "soy milk", people expect something white watery stuff that has soy and whatever other crap it says on the label. If "soy milk" is worth the cost of regulating it, then fine, do it. Same with "coconut milk", "cheezy poofs", and whatever other terms you can think of. Choose carefully, because it's simply not practical to regulate them all.
If the seller says "Milk", you know you're getting pasteurized cow milk with 3.25% milkfat (unless it says skim, reduce fat, etc.), and some other specifications you probably don't know in detail but have learned to recognize by drinking milk for many years.
I haven't heard that there's a significant number of people buying "soy milk" and expecting to get milk. But...if enough of us have become that stupid, sure, prohibit the use of the word "Milk" in the context of "soy..., rice..., coconut..., lizard...) as well. Or just use some of that Milk Advisory Board marketing money to tell people "Milk means milk; $whatever milk, does not mean milk you idiot".
But again, this is just a dick-measuring contest between federal agancies.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Looks like this thread could use some milk of magnesia.
The FDA defines "noodles" as a product made from wheat flour and eggs, neither of which Asian cuisines use in their noodles, so for many years they had to be called "alimentary paste" in the grocery store. But when you went to an Asian restaurant you got "noodles" (of course the same product).
Eventually the FDA relented and allowed them to be called "Asian noodles".
Perhaps we can call these products "vegan milk" (though this is really no different from the more specific "soy milk", etc.)?
The difference of course is there are no "noodle producers" associations of industrial farmers whose primary product are noodles.
Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
Lets call it like it really is lobbying
Soy Milk
Coconut milk
Almond milk
Cow milk
Goat Milk
Milk is actually mommy milk
As ive tried all the milks at some point in my life, attack cow milks rules
Require all to say the full name. Ban the lobbiest.
Bull milk? I wouldn't want that confused with cow milk.
Diluting and / or extending definitions for the purpose of enforcing established circumstances and twisting one's arm to accept false equivalences into policy, is something that happens all the time, and partly reminiscent of the Microsoft EEE paradigm of doing things.
It is important in such discussions to discuss not simply whether it is acceptable or not, but which groups benefit from such a redefinition, which groups are 'pushing' for it (whether visibly or passively by encouraging 'grassroots' uses of the terms) and on what political grounds should they be allowed to enforce this into legislation and change of policy. The fact this question is being asked in itself is evidence that whatever group benefits from such a redefinition, are well into the "Extend" phase by now, and already moving towards the "Exterminate" one.
As it stands, it is rather obvious that the current (largely vegan) trend to call everything under the sun 'milk' rather than "milk" or 'milk alternative', and risk misrepresentation in the process, and equivalently 'cheese / cheesecake' etc, partly aims to portray milk-alternative substances as "equivalent" to milk under 'one' definition, purportedly for the purposes of marketing and convenience, which then serves to conflate a then accepted aspect of that definition as encompassing the totality of that definition. This would in turn entail a shift from defining 'milk' as the product of lactation (as opposed to say coconut "milk", which is so-called because it is 'milky' in texture, but not milk), into defining 'milk' as anything that is 'milky' in texture, therefore shifting the position of dairy milk within this group of 'milks' as simply one element of that set of 'milky' substances, which happens to be from an animal source. A political agenda behind this would then be to form a basis for an argument that there is no need for 'animal-derived' milk when 'non-animal-derived' milk is "equivalent" (something that would have been much harder to discuss if non-animal 'milk' is consistently referred to as an 'alternative'), and use this for vegan lobbyists to put political pressure in a very real and legislative way.
The irony of course, is if a vegan person asked for "oat milk" at Starbucks, only to find they were served "oat-infused cow's milk" (which makes more sense; surely 'chocolate milk' isn't 'milk' extracted from cocoa plants), rather than "oat-based milk-alternative", you can be sure Starbucks would find itself very quickly at the other end of a lawsuit claim for wilful / negligent misrepresentation.
This is similar to how 'non-evidence-based medicine' continuously tries to rebrand itself as 'alternative' or 'complementary' medicine, and such wording alone has allowed to a large extent such practises being accepted into national budgets for medicine. Definitions matter, and they affect policies. To claim it is simply a matter of balance between lexical precision and convenience, and that agendas driving a shifting of this balance are irrelevant, is being naive.
Well, you can cook with both of them, put them on your cereal, and drink them. How are they not interchangeable?
Because HOW you cook with them is (generally) different and they don't taste even remotely similar. Nothing wrong with using soy juice on your cereal if you want to but the act of cooking it or drinking it doesn't magically make it into milk. Recipes that use soy juice in place of milk generally require using different amounts and require other alterations because their chemical compositions are quite different and so they cook differently.
See subject: That's the ONLY "parody" here (is that you are a parody of a man, BOY) - like I said - GROW UP!
APK
P.S.=> Get a life... apk
Ouch! My bones are so brittle. But I always drink plenty of.... Malk?
You're stalking me saying THAT? LMAO! You're the one w/ a "fetish": An APK fetish! You have NO IDEA who I live w/ & it's not alone by the way.
* Hell - I haven't lived alone/by myself completely since oh, 2010?
APK
P.S.=> In the end - dearest PSYCHO that STALKS me by UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous posts - grow up, & get a REAL life... ok? Good... apk
No, it shouldn't. "disgusting wet almond shit that is horrible for the environment because of how much water it wastes to grow revolting almonds" would be a good start.
If it comes from a mammal it is milk. If it comes from a plant it is juice.
The same should be true for cheese. If it is made from mammalian milk it should be called cheese. Anything else needs a different label. Labeling something of plant origin cheese or milk is would be like labeling a vegetable protein 'beef' or 'chicken'; its deceptive.
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But then I repeat myself. -- Mark Twain
Mmmmm.... hemorrhoid cream.
The unique double-ended quartz crystals found in upstate New York nave traditionally been called “Herkimer diamonds.” Diamond dealers have always objected to terms like this as being misleading.
...it's time to get "abreast" of the labeling language
Nice!
If "gay marriage" is marriage, if "meatless meatballs" are meatballs and "vegiburger" — a burger, why should not "almond milk" be milk?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
The Simpsons' always ahead of its time :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS05Okms7cM
Sounds like you can't actually afford your own house - by UNIDENTIFIABLE Anonymous Coward STALKING APK on Thursday July 19, 2018 @11:16AM (#56974290)
See subject: So much for your "you can't actually afford your own house" bs!
* I.E. - I paid it off 11++ yrs. ago & make bills/taxes just fine!
APK
P.S.=> TRUTH IS, I set myself up SO WELL, I haven't HAD to work for ANYONE in 11++ yrs as their "wageslave" making PEANUTS of the total profits made & am RETIRED (for the most part) & YOU?
You STALK ME or IMPERSONATE me https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... (like the obsessed WHACKO you clearly are that WISHES he was ME, lol...) apk
It's a great home & it's ALL mine. Monetary judgements? What lies are you spewing now??
APK
P.S.=> What house of your own do you have that's fully paid off as I have mine? If you do, prove it (you already proved I have my own home after all admitting I do)... apk
The Swiss don't consider semi-skimmed milk (2% fat) to be milk, so in the supermarket it has to be called a "milk drink".
soylentnews.org
If the argument is formal language:
1) The formal definition of Milk (according to the Oxford Dictionary) is: "an opaque white fluid rich in fat and protein, secreted by female mammals for the nourishment of their young."
2) The formal definition of Cow (according to the Oxford Dictionary) is: "A fully grown female animal of a domesticated breed of ox, kept to produce milk or beef."
3) The formal definition of Cow (according to the Oxford Dictionary) is: "A domesticated bovine animal kept for milk or meat; a cow or bull."
4) Since the term Bovine covers the "Bovinae" subfamily and the taste of each of these milk(s) vary, then the species is important in nomenclature. The species, referred to in the US, is Bos taurus.
5) Since formal definition is requested: "Taurus Milk"
If the argument is informal language:
1) Two informal definitions of Milk (according to the Oxford Dictionary) are: "The white juice of certain plants." AND "The milk from cows (or goats or sheep) as consumed by humans."
2) Since the informal definitions of Milk covers appearance, not substance, then taste of each of these milk(s) vary; source of milk is important in nomenclature.
3) Since informal descriptor is requested, the an adjective before milk is mandatory: "Cow Milk", "Almond Milk", "Coconut Milk"
Then in both arguments Milk, as a stand alone term, is not acceptable.
Just look at what a reasonable person might say.
Do you think a reasonable person looks at a carton of "Soy Milk" and thinks that it is milk from a lactating animal?
Do you think a reasonable person looks at a carton of "Almond Milk" and things that it is milk from a lactating animal?
Cashew milk? Coconut milk?
I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that "Milk" with no modifier is milk from a cow, and that anything other than milk from a cow has to have something in front of it saying what it is from:
Goat Milk
Almond Milk
Cashew Milk
Etc..
I don't know why a lactating animal necessarily has to be involved.
So you are asserting that the term "coconut milk" was implemented by Big Coconut, in order to increase sales to Polynesians, for a product they could (and did) get free every day?
While agendas are certainly a thing, and certainly as old as humanity, not every interest is a commercial interest.
What more do I need to say?
And calling something a pizza when it has no tomato for the tomato pie is also false advertising.
The US attempts to control the definition of words in a language that is not theirs.
Maybe next we can stop people from using the word "phone" to describe devices that are not connected to telephone lines.
Its nut juice. Almond Nut Juice, Soy Nut juice. Its not milk because its white. And it isnt Orange Milk, and Cranberry milk. Its Juice. Nut Juice.
MsMash,,
This is stupid..
Why are you wasting bandwidth on this crap?
Dave L Roth
The FDA just needs to shove this up their backside. The almonds have left the barn, no point in closing the door now.
The products have been known as Soy Milk and Almond Milk for decades now. Pretty much since they were on the market. Trying to force a change now would cause far more confusion than it prevents. I don't know of anyone who doesn't understand that soy milk is a product made from soy beans.
This is exactly the sort of anal retentive BS that makes people wonder if we should shut down the FDA and start over.
Same with "coconut milk", "cheezy poofs", and whatever other terms you can think of. Choose carefully, because it's simply not practical to regulate them all.
You severely underestimate the ability of a bureaucracy to generate paper.
Dont take this away from me.
milk (n.) Old English meoluc (West Saxon), milc (Anglian), from Proto-Germanic *meluks "milk" (source also of Old Norse mjolk, Old Frisian melok, Old Saxon miluk, Dutch melk, Old High German miluh, German Milch, Gothic miluks), from *melk- "to milk," from PIE root *melg- "to wipe, to rub off," also "to stroke; to milk," in reference to the hand motion involved in milking an animal. Old Church Slavonic noun meleko (Russian moloko, Czech mleko) is considered to be adopted from Germanic. Of milk-like plant juices from late 14c. Milk chocolate (chocolate made with milk solids, paler and sweeter) is first recorded 1723; milk shake is first recorded 1889, for a variety of creations, but the modern version is only from the 1930s. Milk tooth (1727) uses the word in its figurative sense "period of infancy," attested from 17c. To cry over spilt milk is first attested 1836 in writing of Canadian humorist Thomas C. Haliburton. Milk and honey is from the Old Testament phrase describing the richness of the Promised Land (Numbers xvi.13, Old English meolc and hunie). Milk of human kindness is from "Macbeth" (1605).
eww.
I think too many Python programmers are trying to solve this problem.
Can't we just call it "Mylk"?
The same government that's concerned with "government overreach" when it comes to net neutrality, is all of a sudden considered about the use of the term milk, that's been in common use for over 20 years?
They're going to have to rewrite the dictionary while they're at it:
"a : a fluid secreted by the mammary glands of females for the nourishment of their young b (1) : milk from an animal and especially a cow used as food by people (2) : a food product produced from seeds or fruit that resembles and is used similarly to cow's milk coconut milk soy milk"
-Myke
According to the doctrine of laches: failure to assert one’s rights in a timely manner can result in a claim being barred by laches.
The term "Soy Milk" used for over a century
> "In 1916 a British researcher, Melhuish, in a US patent, first referred to it as "soy milk" and "soy bean milk," two terms which have come to be widely used up until the present. "
http://www.soyinfocenter.com/HSS/soymilk1.php
So why is it a problem now?
Maybe because more people are using dairy alternatives, and the dairy industry doesn't like that?
Nut Juice.
"Juice is a drink made from the extraction or pressing of the natural liquid contained in fruit and vegetables"
by your logic we should call milk "animal juice" because juice comes from neither nuts nor animals
Now this is a bit off topic but the FDA should enforce a downsized package notification on the label for six months after they reduce the size of the contents. yea Orange Juice I am looking at you! 52 oz is NOT 59 oz which is NOT 64 oz. These new bottles are so obviously smaller. Help me boycott purchases of 52 oz orange juice. (and yes that is U.S. ounces, metric loonies need not apply)
I looked up the cheese vs processed cheese situation as a close example. Processed cheeses - for the most part - cannot simply be called 'cheese'. They're processed cheese and labeled as such. That one had to be regulated and has some rules as to exactly what kind of labeling goes onto them.
Milk vs [descriptor] milk is already doing that. Milk without a qualifier is cow milk. Milk from other mammals is also labeled as such - goat milk, etc.
Perhaps the rule should simply codify what's already being done. It's got precedent. But honestly there's no reason not to call it soy milk when it's used for the same purposes as cow milk and is clearly labeled as to what variant it is.
has spoken
Does a Buffalo have vings? And if that is the case : Where?
Only the Trump administration would think that eliminating a term that's been in standard use in English for centuries in order to make Democrats (who are probably among the most common consumers of nut milks) upset is a good idea. Good grief - here's a documented use of the term "almond milk" where he even notes that you can make pistachio milk (and by extension other nut milks) by freaking Francis Bacon from around 1600! https://books.google.com/books?id=YLxaUugQoY4C&pg=PA261&dq=francis+bacon+almond+milk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKjJfK4qvcAhVldt8KHZemBWgQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=francis%20bacon%20almond%20milk&f=false
Call it animal udder secretion and he how the kids will love to drink that.
One word : "Almondmilk"
That certainly shouldn't cause any confusion, right?
Should television stations that brand themselves as "news" be forced to tell the truth about what they actually give their viewers?
"Fox Biased Opinion Channel"
So I guess the FDA wants the dictionary changed too. And pity poor milkweed. It can’t be renamed to just weed, that would be a big problem...
- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
Just require it be sold pre-mixed with rum and pinapple juice. Then you can just call it "Piña colada".
"And, you know, an almond doesn't lactate, I will confess."
it's time to get abreast of the labeling language
Yes because you dont have any fucking rights to the word fucking milk assholes.
> the current (largely vegan) trend to call everything under the sun 'milk'
Current? The term "soy milk" has been used for over a century.
I think "Milk of Magnesia" is older than that.
I Can't Believe It's Not Milk!
A juice is characterized by being a water-like substance containing a negligible quantity of fats.
A milk, while still a thinner liquid than a cream, is thicker than water, and contains a noticeable quantity of fats.
Claiming "milk" can only be applied to lactation is silly. Next we'll be saying the word "cream" must be extracted from all products lacking dairy.
So I guess the FDA wants the dictionary changed too. And pity poor milkweed. It can’t be renamed to just weed, that would be a big problem...
Juiceweed. There. and b.t.w. we live in the Juicyway galaxy.
-USR1
Sir, she walks, she talks, she's full of chalk, the lacteal fluid extracted from the female of the bovine species is highly prolific to the nth degree.
- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
No? Then it is not milk.
People shouldn't be drinking cow milk past being a baby. I love a good med rate steak, but cow is not so good for humans or the environment. Calling soy or almond 'milk' makes it easier for people to use it as a cow milk substitute. So in the name of eating the transition... call it milk. It's like original electric and hybrid cars... they made them look stupid to let them stand out from gas cars, but that just made them a joke that no one took seriously. Tesla made them stand out by looking like a standard luxury car, then a luxury SUV, and now a fairly standard car... dress for the job you want...
This is nonsense. I looked up coconut milk, almond milk, and soy milk in Google's Ngram Viewer. Coconut milk has been steadily rising in usage since around 1920 and soy milk has been steadily increasing since around 1960. What surprised me though was that almond milk has been in steady usage since around 1800. More than that, in a compilation of writings of Francis Bacon, who died in 1626, he suggests adding pistachios to almond milk.
"Pistachoes, so they be good, and not musty, joined with almonds in almond milk; or made into a milk themselves, like unto almond milk, but more green, are an excellent nourisher: but you shall do well, to add a little ginger, scraped, because they are not without some subtile windiness."
It's pretty clear that using the work "milk" to describe a liquid that derives from a plant is a pretty old custom in English.
You are forbidden from calling Non-dairy milk products milk so say the dairy products industry lobbyists! Ahem, ahem!
We must product our dairy industry!
We must, we must, we must!!!
Stop calling milk derivatives "non dairy" . Taking the protein out of milk and making some small change to it, turning it into sodium caseinate, doesn't make it "non-dairy"
I'm allergic to milk protein and this issue caused me to nearly go to the ER a couple of times. Non-dairy creamer can still hurt someone that's allergic to milk and might not know all the by-products necessary to look out for.
I had a sucky sig.
Liquid extracts are serums. Although fruits already have their own word. Sweetened Diluted Almond Serum? Not as appetizing for sure.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
What will snake milkers now be called? Should we rename milk of magnesia? Milky Way? We should also ban the word galaxy as it comes from Greek galaktos.
What about galactose? It is found in milk as well as avocados? Lactose is produced in human muscles - males do it too.
All tea comes from one plant. Regardless if you like black, orange, pekoe, oolong, or green they all come from the same leaf. When the U.S. was formed tea was clearly defined by law yet in the past two decades any weed that you can cut and put in a can is called tea.
It's about time we go back to having words that have meaning and to stick to standards that make sense.
I think that's the point, if they are similar enough in look and texture but not in composition there needs to be a distinction to clarify (tee hee).
Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. -- Susan Ertz
But seriously, I don't think "juice" means what you think it does. It's even more inaccurate than calling non-dairy products "milk".
Not possible to make it less accurate than calling it milk. Milk is a very specific thing derived solely from secretions by mammals used to feed their young. There is no product derived from plants that matches the chemical composition, nutritional profile, taste, mouth-feel, or cooking characteristics. That's not to say the veggie based products are bad or shouldn't be used. They just aren't even close to being milk in the technical sense or the legal sense.
You can squeeze soybeans or nuts all you want; you'll get neither juice nor milk. Non-dairy "milks" are generally made of highly processed, ground-up seeds mixed with thickening agents and large volumes of water.
"Soy milk" is a stable emulsion if you want to get technical about it. But we don't have a great word in common parlance for stable emulsions and we do have a good word for plant derived drinks - albeit an already corrupted one as you point out. So unless you want to invent a term (which I'm fine with), juice is as close to accurate as we have available. Given that we already describe lots of drinks that really barely fit the description of juice as juice (see fruit "juice" with just 5% or less plant derived actual juice) we're not really misleading anyone in a new way. You are correct that technically it is not juice but it's far closer to juice than it is to milk.
That is a very good point. Quick search I found something from late 18th century england that says "milk of almonds to be consumed on fifh days". They are talking about lent observance which was the common usage back then. I think milk of almonds is less ambiguous.
refactor the law, its bloated, confusing and unmaintainable.
Nut juice
What about Milk of Magnesia? Harvey Milk? Milky Way?
Seriously, who is confused by almond milk? Who honestly thinks soy milk comes from an animal's udder? This is just another example of government being run by the lobbyists who are in turn owned by large corporations.
The this silliness is driven by greed, nothing else.
Give up it's not milk
GREAT!! Now what the hell am I supposed to do with all this Milk Weed? I was trying to corner the market on milk AND weed at the same time. Damnit, Gill, looks like you're not eating tonight....
About 20 years ago Trader Joe's came up with a tomato condiment sweetened with honey. The Federal whatever-relevant-agency told them they could not call it ketchup. The government had regulations defining what could be sold as ketchup or catsup (and a lot of other packaged foods).
It requires something from tomatoes, maybe vinegar, and a sweetener. The sweetener could be various sugars or corn syrup, but honey was not on the list. I guess the corn syrup industry lobbied for it, but the honey industry didn't.
So Trader Joe's asked if they could call it "tomato ketchy." They were told, as long as you don't call it ketchup/catsup, you're okay.
According to Wikipedia, older uses of the term included condiments with "...egg whites, mushrooms, oysters, mussels, or walnuts..." and I've heard of blueberries and other foods having been called catsup, but oddly, thankfully, nothing to do with cats. .
Part of what is going on is a phenomena where industries or companies are colonialising language and claiming ownership of words:
Apple
GNU
McDonald's Some history: in the early days of the internet, when most thought it was a passing fad, a Mr. McDonald's created a web page, McDonald's.com. It was about his large extended family, I think. Or maybe anyone named McDonald's. A few years later ICAN started actively giving website names to big companies, and guess what? That is just one example.
a liquid that was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike milk
... milking it for all its worth
What a lot of people here are missing are the following considerations:
1). Is anyone confused? I'm not talking about "anyone at all", I'm talking about a standard, ordinary, reasonable human being;
2). Is there any malice, fraud, or deliberate obfuscation at work? Is criminality or misrepresentation at work?
3). The difference between Botany/Biology, and the Culinary Arts.
I submit that the answers to the first two questions are clearly No. I've never seen anyone confused about "coconut milk" or "almond milk" or "soy milk". Nor do I perceive intentional misrepresentation by the manufacturers and marketers. Even "soy hamburgers" or "veggie burgers", is this a serious problem in the marketplace? Not even a little bit.
On the third point, that's interesting. There are numerous examples of Us, that is to say We, using one thing as another. Deliberately! Tomatoes are fruit botanically, but vegetables as used in cooking. Same goes for eggplant, peppers, cucumbers, zucchini, and loads of other vegetables. Are we defrauding the poor shoppers? Do we deceive ourselves by doing so? I say no!
So embrace the coconut milk. It looks like milk, it can sometimes be used in place of milk, and it is tasty, refreshing, and it saved all those poor shipwrecked sailors (never mind the historical, nor the grammatical inconsistencies here!). Would "coconut juice" sound as appetizing? I say no!
Next up: Can Portobello mushrooms be used in place of a hamburger patty? I read a recipe that says Yes!
Sure, why not? If gender can be ignored, I think having access to nut-milk is probably a requirement.
Is misleading, also prior art and custom.
Might be harmless. Then again might not. Not that I am in favor of bulldozing the Himalayas, mind you. I'm just sayin'.
"No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy
The dairy industry has been in decline for a long time. Pressure from plant "milks" is seen as a partial cause. Here it is straight from one of the industry's official organs.
"No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy