Yea because its not like MS has a history of forcing hardware vendors to do their bidding. Nope they've never twisted anyones arm or threatened vendors. Not Microsoft.
When some Linux company has 95% of the desktop market and then goes on to commit several crimes in order to keept the competition out, I'll champion Lunix myself.
While I completely agree about low end laserjets not being crappy, I do have to say your lucky if your 1100 doesn't jam. That model if fairly well known for having problems with jamming.
Wow. If I keep saying Redhate and trolling about Red Hat will I get modded up too?
Someone whose computer hasn't been screwed up in a major way by Red Hat and doesn't think its annoying...Of course I have ACTUALLY USED Red Hat recently, but go ahead mod up some idiot troll.
That's why you shouldn't prejudge something without using it.
Most people around here who give Red Hat crap haven't used it in years and know little about it. Its just easier to parrot stupid comments like "Red Hat is bloated" or "Red Hat is like M$" then to take the time to use it and learn about it.
Red Hat may sometimes do things "their own way", but so does every other distro. The difference is Red Hat, unlike say Gentoo, gets no slack(no pun intended) for changes they want to make. Everyone like to assume the worst and give them crap.
"Support legal emulation! Only emulate those games that you own."
Why bother? Most people who are into roms pirates them anyway. Oh sure there's a tiny part who only emulates games they own, but let's not insult people's intelligence. The vast majority pirate them.
That's like talking about how great MP3's and P2P is while at the same time trying to lamely claim your one of.000001% that never downloads music you don't already own.
I'll spare the lecture on the opensource aspect to this and get right to the point.
Mozilla has like 3% of the browser market. What's the worst thing that can happen? It drops to 2%?
It bloody obvious to anyone that those morons at AOL want nothing to do with Netscape beyond keeping it as an option. Show me a AOL beta that uses Gecko and I'll show you some Duke Nukem beta footage. In short if Netscape has to base its browser on Phoenix, so be it. They weren't going anywhere with Netscape 7 anyway. Maybe people will stop hating Netscape if they were to slim down a bit and break up the suite.
It's about time for some bold moves for Mozilla. It certainly has nowhere to go but up.
I would think Red Hat is used widely enough that it would be reasonable to expect someone at winehq to test against one of many free public Red Hat betas, and submit patches to Wine, prior to the new Red Hat release.
In Phoenix, or Moz if that's your thing, create a bookmark on your toolbar called Zapit(or whatever) and make this the location. Click and watch anything embedded like Java/Flash etc gets zapped.
javascript:(function(){var d=document; function K(N,t) { var b = d.createElement("div"); b.style.width=N.width; b.style.height=N.height; b.innerHTML="<del>" + t + "</del>"; N.parentNode.replaceChild(b,N); } function Z(t) { var T = d.getElementsByTagName(t), i; for (i=T.length-1;i+1;--i) K(T[i],t); } Z("object"); Z("embed"); Z("applet"); Z("iframe");})();
"I actually like the idea of slow, methodical development as opposed to the "let's add every feature under the sun (no pun intended)" effort ending up in a convuluted mess of bad code and incomplete or non working features."
Actually let's not confuse one projects lack of resources with another projects wealth of resources. Both Gnome and KDE have become very useful desktops for normal users. E on the other hand in its current state is only appealing to a very small group of users and probably won't be feature complete and stable for a few years at least. By then I'd imagine Gnome and KDE will be even more impressive and will still be the best desktops going for most linux users.
I actually don't even think its worth comparing the projects since there's not much of a point, but if your going to make the effort at least try to be a little more realistic.
"I just hope this doesn't take someone's time who would be working on GNOME, KDE, OO.org, or a decent replacement for Macromedia Freehand/Adobe Illustrator:)."
Remember that's not the way open source works and is actually a huge stereotype. People work on what interests them and just because they work on project doesn't mean they'd be interested in working on another project even if it were similar. Open Source developers are not just one big pool of resources that can be pushed around where popular opinion thinks they should go.
Oh please. So they made the window titlebar on Gnome and KDE look the same. Boo fucking hoo. Its free software. Don't like? Don't use it.
"(I'm sorry, but it just takes RH even farther away from any sort of standard, and forces it's users to go to RH for software updates)"
Yea like every other distro doesn't use their "own" method for packaging software. What you call non-standard I call Red Hat making an effort to fix software so that we get the best versions. Just because they add patches to the kernel or XFree in order to make it perform better doesn't sure as hell doesn't mean they've turned those packages in to some proprietary software.
"s soon as I've time it's back to the source [kernel.org] and on to Gentoo [gentoo.org] for me!"
Enjoy your compiling while the rest of us are actually using our systems.
Oh and BTW I can compile anything I want from source on Red Hat and run it just like someone on Gentoo can.
The only thing I'm unhappy about with Red Hat right now is the possibility that they may be chaning the EOL period for some products. Besides that just like always they're doing a lot right for linux.
Red Hat isn't free as in beer, a monopolist or the enemy. Reading these forums you'd never know that though.
"I don't like that they include almost no configuration tools. "
Must be a different "special" version of Red Hat you used. There are GUI config tools for the Keyboard,Mouse,Network/Internet,Graphics,Printing, Users/Groups,Disk managment,System log viewing,Firewall,Date&Time,Soundcard, etc. Not to mention the standard GUI config tools for fonts, and configuring your desktop that come with Gnome or KDE.
There are a ton of gui config tools in Red Hat. Maybe there happens to be one or two you miss from Mandrake, but to try and argue there are "no configuration tools" is just an outright lie.
Regarding Grub you should have a looked at Red Hat's excellant documentation on their website. Simply typing in grub on Red Hat's main page would have brought you here where you can learn all you want about installing and configurating grub. http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/RHL-8.0-M anual/ref-guide/s1-grub-whatis.html
Stop by here as well for a whole bunch of free well done manuals http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/RHL-8.0-M anual/
I am always amazed that people are into distros like Slackware. No easy gui install that anyone can do without effort. No way to automatically update the system for security updates. And that's the way they like it.
Usually this is when a Slackware user starts crowing about bloat and spewing phrasing like "redhate". Slackwares's installer and system maintenace methods were normal in 1993, a bit dated by 1996, and positively outdated by 2000. Now that were in 2003 I'm still amazed that anyone wants to deal with all of that manual work in order to get everything completely working.
I guess its all about priorities. People who use something like Red Hat just want to sit down and be productive right away. While Slackware/Gentoo users just want to "master" their computers and dig on "noobs" for not taking the "hard way". I've always thought that was funny since linux is basically linux and a distro like Red Hat is just as powerful as Slackware no matter what the deafault theme looks like.
Oh well. Some things never change. Some people think the ease of use found in modern distros is a sign of weakness. I think its a sign of progress. If I had to return to my linux box from 1996 I'd slit my wrists.
Who cares? You can't redistribute it anyway.
on
SuSE 8.2 Announced
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
Right? If I can't download the code, make ANY modifications I want and then redistribute it in ISO or other form what the hell good is it? That's not linux, that's some proprietary bullshit hassle.
Suse may make contributions but the their software is Non-Free or "free as in beer" only. Thus in my mind their the same as Lindows, Xandros et al.
Too many strings make Suse worthless to me and its why I'll never use it. That's also why it will never fit the definition of truly free software.
Actually its not that bad it you buy AMD. They unlike Intel have stuck to basically one socket for a while now. Besides the newest Barton chips there are plently of people with mobo's that are well over a year old and are still able to upgrade to a pretty fast chip.
"Monopolistic practices that push other competitors out of the server business"
Don't be a liar/drama queen that doesn't even happen.. Red Hat does not have nor will they ever have a monopoly on linux. They sure as shit don't have a desktop monopoly like MS does. So what was your point again?
Oh but I forget your own of the resident Microsofties who regularly trolls Slashdot defending MS and spreading semi-FUD about linux in every post.
For the "home" user right now linux's user base consists of users who are technically savy, these users probably won't care if once a year they have to upgrade.
Then you have say small or even medium businesses who are trying linux because, hey its free. Red Hat is pulling out of this market and that's something I'm very concerned about.
Basically regardless of whatever else you want to say about linux the real value lies in the fact its free. Of course there are other costs and factors involved, but really the price being $0 is the initial draw. Philosophically I think linux and its updates should be free forever(ie longer than one year). That's just the way I am and its how I've viewed Linux since I started using it with Red Hat 5.0. In general the way Linux is becoming semi-proprietary and non-free its not only disturbing, its something I'm just not interested in. The world needs and deserves a Free OS that they can rely on for years of faithful service. Isn't that what Linux was always about? Or am I now after all these years out of touch with today's Linux? Is it time to move to FreeBSD? They won't ever become nonfree or limit updates? Right??
Knowing that Red Hat is going to a one year support plan who in their right mind is going to use it anymore for the types of uses we've taken for granted? I'm sure not going to be deploying it anymore.
Red Hat is free to do whatever they want but small shops, churches, charities etc who have relied on Red Hat can no longer do so. After 8.1 has its run I'll be moving on to another distro(probably Debian) and also move to deploying another linux at any clients. Actually at this very moment my father's small law firm is finally about to join the 90's and get a server for his peer to peer lan. Up until recently there was no doubt it was going to be a Red Hat box, now there's no chance of that.
Red Hat doesn't owe me or anyone else ANYTHING. But at the same time its sad that I can no longer rely on a company I've relied on for so many years. It's kind of like the "free" ride is over and part of Linux has changed forever. There's no one to blame but even if there was I don't think it would make me feel any better.
"but lately Intel has been steadily ahead with clock cycles that even AMD's "2800+" marketing cant compete with. "
That's where your wrong. The new 3000+ Barton is faster then the Intel 3.06. The same will be true of a 2800+ Barton vs. a P4 2.8. The fact that a P4 3GHz gets beat by a chip running almost a 1GHz slower is embarassing for Intel to say the least and most certainly confirms AMD's "number+" processor naming convention. It's Intel marketing that doesn't live up to the hype, not AMD's.
MS has only dominated desktop computing for like 7-8 years now. 10 years from now they could be reduced to bit player. Its hard to see anything beyond the present if you don't look at history. This is especially true for young people who don't know a world without MS and also haven't studied history. Once IBM was the only game in town and also there was a time when Novell was everywhere. Hell look what happened to Xerox. MS doesn't own the server market and they also don't own the mobile phone market. 5 years from now some startup could launch some weird holographic computer device thingy that completely replaces the need for Windows desktops, cellphones and PDA's.
The point is neither you nor anyone else knows what the future has in store. One thing is for sure though, it's simply foolish to think MS will dominate computing forever. History shows that's not likely and realistically simply isn't possible.
Slashdot Mirror
"All this talk of free software is the usual warez behaviour dressed up in fake morals..."
Yea those dam Linux users. Always warezing free linux distros and free software. Bunch of fakers they are.
Keep your trolling to Activewin Dirtbag.
Yea because its not like MS has a history of forcing hardware vendors to do their bidding. Nope they've never twisted anyones arm or threatened vendors. Not Microsoft.
Actually M$ is very appropriate.
When some Linux company has 95% of the desktop market and then goes on to commit several crimes in order to keept the competition out, I'll champion Lunix myself.
Until that time get a clue and stop bitching.
While I completely agree about low end laserjets not being crappy, I do have to say your lucky if your 1100 doesn't jam. That model if fairly well known for having problems with jamming.
Wow. If I keep saying Redhate and trolling about Red Hat will I get modded up too?
Someone whose computer hasn't been screwed up in a major way by Red Hat and doesn't think its annoying...Of course I have ACTUALLY USED Red Hat recently, but go ahead mod up some idiot troll.
That's why you shouldn't prejudge something without using it.
Most people around here who give Red Hat crap haven't used it in years and know little about it. Its just easier to parrot stupid comments like "Red Hat is bloated" or "Red Hat is like M$" then to take the time to use it and learn about it.
Red Hat may sometimes do things "their own way", but so does every other distro. The difference is Red Hat, unlike say Gentoo, gets no slack(no pun intended) for changes they want to make. Everyone like to assume the worst and give them crap.
"Support legal emulation! Only emulate those games that you own."
.000001% that never downloads music you don't already own.
Why bother? Most people who are into roms pirates them anyway. Oh sure there's a tiny part who only emulates games they own, but let's not insult people's intelligence. The vast majority pirate them.
That's like talking about how great MP3's and P2P is while at the same time trying to lamely claim your one of
I'll spare the lecture on the opensource aspect to this and get right to the point.
Mozilla has like 3% of the browser market. What's the worst thing that can happen? It drops to 2%?
It bloody obvious to anyone that those morons at AOL want nothing to do with Netscape beyond keeping it as an option. Show me a AOL beta that uses Gecko and I'll show you some Duke Nukem beta footage. In short if Netscape has to base its browser on Phoenix, so be it. They weren't going anywhere with Netscape 7 anyway. Maybe people will stop hating Netscape if they were to slim down a bit and break up the suite.
It's about time for some bold moves for Mozilla. It certainly has nowhere to go but up.
I would think Red Hat is used widely enough that it would be reasonable to expect someone at winehq to test against one of many free public Red Hat betas, and submit patches to Wine, prior to the new Red Hat release.
Just use this and you won't have to worry about it anymore.
Security Fix
In other news....it look like the mods are still in an April Fool's day mood judging by the fact a post like the one above was modded up.
In Phoenix, or Moz if that's your thing, create a bookmark on your toolbar called Zapit(or whatever) and make this the location. Click and watch anything embedded like Java/Flash etc gets zapped.
javascript:(function(){var d=document; function K(N,t) { var b = d.createElement("div"); b.style.width=N.width; b.style.height=N.height; b.innerHTML="<del>" + t + "</del>"; N.parentNode.replaceChild(b,N); } function Z(t) { var T = d.getElementsByTagName(t), i; for (i=T.length-1;i+1;--i) K(T[i],t); } Z("object"); Z("embed"); Z("applet"); Z("iframe");})();
"I actually like the idea of slow, methodical development as opposed to the "let's add every feature under the sun (no pun intended)" effort ending up in a convuluted mess of bad code and incomplete or non working features."
Actually let's not confuse one projects lack of resources with another projects wealth of resources. Both Gnome and KDE have become very useful desktops for normal users. E on the other hand in its current state is only appealing to a very small group of users and probably won't be feature complete and stable for a few years at least. By then I'd imagine Gnome and KDE will be even more impressive and will still be the best desktops going for most linux users.
I actually don't even think its worth comparing the projects since there's not much of a point, but if your going to make the effort at least try to be a little more realistic.
All your points make sense but this one
:)."
"I just hope this doesn't take someone's time who would be working on GNOME, KDE, OO.org, or a decent replacement for Macromedia Freehand/Adobe Illustrator
Remember that's not the way open source works and is actually a huge stereotype. People work on what interests them and just because they work on project doesn't mean they'd be interested in working on another project even if it were similar. Open Source developers are not just one big pool of resources that can be pushed around where popular opinion thinks they should go.
"How can you know that there are few bugs when it has just been released?"
Because its running a pre-release kernel of course!
Personally I'm very happy to see they are still around. We need more easy to install and use distros, not less.
" their ridiculous "BlueCurve" rebranding "
Oh please. So they made the window titlebar on Gnome and KDE look the same. Boo fucking hoo. Its free software. Don't like? Don't use it.
"(I'm sorry, but it just takes RH even farther away from any sort of standard, and forces it's users to go to RH for software updates)"
Yea like every other distro doesn't use their "own" method for packaging software. What you call non-standard I call Red Hat making an effort to fix software so that we get the best versions. Just because they add patches to the kernel or XFree in order to make it perform better doesn't
sure as hell doesn't mean they've turned those packages in to some proprietary software.
"s soon as I've time it's back to the source [kernel.org] and on to Gentoo [gentoo.org] for me!"
Enjoy your compiling while the rest of us are actually using our systems.
Oh and BTW I can compile anything I want from source on Red Hat and run it just like someone on Gentoo can.
The only thing I'm unhappy about with Red Hat right now is the possibility that they may be chaning the EOL period for some products. Besides that just like always they're doing a lot right for linux.
Red Hat isn't free as in beer, a monopolist or the enemy. Reading these forums you'd never know that though.
"I don't like that they include almost no configuration tools. "
, Users/Groups,Disk managment,System log viewing,Firewall,Date&Time,Soundcard, etc. Not to mention the standard GUI config tools for fonts, and configuring your desktop that come with Gnome or KDE.
M anual/ref-guide/s1-grub-whatis.html
M anual/
Must be a different "special" version of Red Hat you used. There are GUI config tools for the Keyboard,Mouse,Network/Internet,Graphics,Printing
There are a ton of gui config tools in Red Hat. Maybe there happens to be one or two you miss from Mandrake, but to try and argue there are "no configuration tools" is just an outright lie.
Regarding Grub you should have a looked at Red Hat's excellant documentation on their website. Simply typing in grub on Red Hat's main page would have brought you here where you can learn all you want about installing and configurating grub. http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/RHL-8.0-
Stop by here as well for a whole bunch of free well done manuals http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/RHL-8.0-
Ruf ruf ruf! Ruf ruf ruf ruf. Ruf ruf ruf ruf ruf ruf?
Sincerely,
Sparky
.
.
needed for lame "postercomment": compression filter
I am always amazed that people are into distros like Slackware. No easy gui install that anyone can do without effort. No way to automatically update the system for security updates. And that's the way they like it.
Usually this is when a Slackware user starts crowing about bloat and spewing phrasing like "redhate". Slackwares's installer and system maintenace methods were normal in 1993, a bit dated by 1996, and positively outdated by 2000. Now that were in 2003 I'm still amazed that anyone wants to deal with all of that manual work in order to get everything completely working.
I guess its all about priorities. People who use something like Red Hat just want to sit down and be productive right away. While Slackware/Gentoo users just want to "master" their computers and dig on "noobs" for not taking the "hard way". I've always thought that was funny since linux is basically linux and a distro like Red Hat is just as powerful as Slackware no matter what the deafault theme looks like.
Oh well. Some things never change. Some people think the ease of use found in modern distros is a sign of weakness. I think its a sign of progress. If I had to return to my linux box from 1996 I'd slit my wrists.
Right? If I can't download the code, make ANY modifications I want and then redistribute it in ISO or other form what the hell good is it? That's not linux, that's some proprietary bullshit hassle.
Suse may make contributions but the their software is Non-Free or "free as in beer" only. Thus in my mind their the same as Lindows, Xandros et al.
Too many strings make Suse worthless to me and its why I'll never use it. That's also why it will never fit the definition of truly free software.
Actually its not that bad it you buy AMD. They unlike Intel have stuck to basically one socket for a while now. Besides the newest Barton chips there are plently of people with mobo's that are well over a year old and are still able to upgrade to a pretty fast chip.
"Monopolistic practices that push other competitors out of the server business"
Don't be a liar/drama queen that doesn't even happen.. Red Hat does not have nor will they ever have a monopoly on linux. They sure as shit don't have a desktop monopoly like MS does. So what was your point again?
Oh but I forget your own of the resident Microsofties who regularly trolls Slashdot defending MS and spreading semi-FUD about linux in every post.
For the "home" user right now linux's user base consists of users who are technically savy, these users probably won't care if once a year they have to upgrade.
Then you have say small or even medium businesses who are trying linux because, hey its free. Red Hat is pulling out of this market and that's something I'm very concerned about.
Basically regardless of whatever else you want to say about linux the real value lies in the fact its free. Of course there are other costs and factors involved, but really the price being $0 is the initial draw. Philosophically I think linux and its updates should be free forever(ie longer than one year). That's just the way I am and its how I've viewed Linux since I started using it with Red Hat 5.0. In general the way Linux is becoming semi-proprietary and non-free its not only disturbing, its something I'm just not interested in. The world needs and deserves a Free OS that they can rely on for years of faithful service. Isn't that what Linux was always about? Or am I now after all these years out of touch with today's Linux? Is it time to move to FreeBSD? They won't ever become nonfree or limit updates? Right??
Knowing that Red Hat is going to a one year support plan who in their right mind is going to use it anymore for the types of uses we've taken for granted? I'm sure not going to be deploying it anymore.
Red Hat is free to do whatever they want but small shops, churches, charities etc who have relied on Red Hat can no longer do so. After 8.1 has its run I'll be moving on to another distro(probably Debian) and also move to deploying another linux at any clients. Actually at this very moment my father's small law firm is finally about to join the 90's and get a server for his peer to peer lan. Up until recently there was no doubt it was going to be a Red Hat box, now there's no chance of that.
Red Hat doesn't owe me or anyone else ANYTHING. But at the same time its sad that I can no longer rely on a company I've relied on for so many years. It's kind of like the "free" ride is over and part of Linux has changed forever. There's no one to blame but even if there was I don't think it would make me feel any better.
"but lately Intel has been steadily ahead with clock cycles that even AMD's "2800+" marketing cant compete with. "
0 ,0 0.asp
That's where your wrong. The new 3000+ Barton is faster then the Intel 3.06. The same will be true of a 2800+ Barton vs. a P4 2.8. The fact that a P4 3GHz gets beat by a chip running almost a 1GHz slower is embarassing for Intel to say the least and most certainly confirms AMD's "number+" processor naming convention. It's Intel marketing that doesn't live up to the hype, not AMD's.
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,10958
MS has only dominated desktop computing for like 7-8 years now. 10 years from now they could be reduced to bit player. Its hard to see anything beyond the present if you don't look at history. This is especially true for young people who don't know a world without MS and also haven't studied history. Once IBM was the only game in town and also there was a time when Novell was everywhere. Hell look what happened to Xerox. MS doesn't own the server market and they also don't own the mobile phone market. 5 years from now some startup could launch some weird holographic computer device thingy that completely replaces the need for Windows desktops, cellphones and PDA's.
The point is neither you nor anyone else knows what the future has in store. One thing is for sure though, it's simply foolish to think MS will dominate computing forever. History shows that's not likely and realistically simply isn't possible.