Internet via the Power Grid, Again

Damon Campagna writes "This NYT article, Internet via the Power Grid: New Interest in Obvious Idea says the FCC is looking into power-line networking again. I thought this was pretty much debunked a couple years ago?"

Comments

Power Grid

[Zephy]

The FCC Might have debunked it, but it seems to work over here. Some companies have started large scale trials. 2000kbps might not be a lot over there but it's still faster than the 512k/1024k that's the norm over here.

Re:Power Grid

[gobbo]

The primary difference in the ease of deploying IP over A/C is with the differing electrical infrastructure in NorthAmerica as opposed to the U.K. (and possibly other regions, don't know about that). In N.A. transformers were put all over the place in such a way that it presents a significant problem for getting a clean signal all the way down the line.

Re:Power Grid

[harriet nyborg]

"In N.A. transformers were put all over the place in such a way that it presents a significant problem for getting a clean signal all the way down the line."

?

another american who assumes the rest of the world is still buring whale oil for light.

the only difference between Europe and US is how the voltage is wired in the house. the power grids are identical - except that most of the world runs on 50Hz AC instead 60Hz which is used in US, Canada, Mexico, and Japan.

three phase 440VAC 50Hz is standard residential service throughtout Europe. wired to the outlets at 220VAC.

residential service in the US is 2 phase 220VAC 60 Hz. wired for 110 VAC to the outlets.

but three phase is available at the transformer on the top of the telephone pole outside if you want to come up to european standard.

we also have DSL, GPRS, GSM...

and pretty good coffee without having to go to Starbucks.

Re:Power Grid

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont understand why every one keeps saying "if the technology is proven", FUCKING DUH... of course it could work ... its a simple problem of how to organize, control, route and USE packets.... the network would have to be a grid or mesh network... but anyone who understands electricity would know that it is possible to send "DATA" over a power bus.

DAMMIT some people are completely reliant on regurgitated stupidity from a friend or professor who is spewing it from no deeper than an overheard conversation... rather than reading something for themselves.....
CANT YOU FUCKING PEOPLE CRACK A REFERENCE BOOK RATHER THAN ASSUME YOUR WISDOM FROM NEWS ARTICLES WRITTEN BY A KID WHOS BEST SUBJECT WAS NINTENDO.

Re:Power Grid

[Anonymous Coward]

gobbo was not saying that the US & Canada are more advanced than Europeans, but the opposite. The key words in gobbo's post are "in such a way". gobbo was making a (rather uninformed) supposition that power transmission in Europe is better engineered than in the US & Canada.

What most Europeans don't realize is that Americans actually have a colossal inferiority complex. If you watch The Simpsons perhaps you already understand. [Not that we aren't inferior. :-) ]

Re:Power Grid

[Pet3]

I'm in iceland and i have a PowerLine Modem, and in WinXP i'm getting about 1mbps, but on my linux box i get up to 2.8mbits ;)

Re:Power Grid

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet another piece of Eurotrash said

"another american who assumes the rest of the world is still buring whale oil for light."

Umm no. Its "another American" who just pointed out how in N.A.(North America) its a problem of not being able to get a clean signal. He said nothing about Amercia being better than Europe. Although its pretty obvious you have some sort of inferiority complex.

Direct quote since you obivoulsy don't know how to read.

"In N.A. transformers were put all over the place in such a way that it presents a significant problem for getting a clean signal all the way down the line"

Smug and unable to read. What a nice combo.

Re:Power Grid

[mixmasta]

Ha, another European that thinks 300 million Americans think with the same mind.

Maybe if you actually read his post you would have gathered that he didn't make any kind of negative statement about other countries. He was making an observation.

He may or may not be technically correct, like you, but at least he does not come off as being so small, smug and superior.

This an attitude I encounter frequently when I am traveling and meet people from the UK, and I mention I am American. I find it distasteful, and the funny thing is, I encounter it _much_
more often than I meet stupid, ugly Americans.

Re:Power Grid

[Anonymous Coward]

Ameren Corporation (Power Company) in Saint Louis, MO is in a trial phase right now. In fact, we have been working on this for some time. There is an article on CNN under the technology section which mentions Ameren too.

So....will this make it easier to surf the net with my waffle iron?

www.ameren.com

Re:Power Grid

[Pharmboy]

residential service in the US is 2 phase 220VAC 60 Hz. wired for 110 VAC to the outlets.

but three phase is available at the transformer on the top of the telephone pole outside if you want to come up to european standard.

Residential 240v service is called single phase. Three phase service is generally NOT available at homes due to the difference in the transformers (three legs instead of two). Also, three phase in the US is 208 volt, not 220 or 240. This would not have us 'up' to European standards either, since the voltage is different (208v vs. 230v) and the cycles is different (60 vs 50).

Oh yea, and you really shouldn't be such a smug bastard. You mistook what the guy was saying, completely. Not that he was right, its just you were more wrong. European coffee sucks as bad as Starbucks, too. I prefer Maxwell House.

Re:Power Grid

[Kris_J]

We have 3-phase at my home here in Western Australia, but we got it specially for my father's kiln, back in the day. Now I think half the house uses one phase, half uses the other and half the electric oven uses the third.

Re:Power Grid

[harriet nyborg]

residential 240V service is NOT single phase.

three phase transformers use a wye or delta configuration.

the voltage between any pole of the transformer and neutral is sinusoidal:

Voltage=120sin(60t) Volts, t in seconds

the voltage between any two poles (i.e., phases) of the transformer is:

Voltage=240sin(60t) Volts, t in seconds

measured with a handheld multimeter (which averages the peak), you'll read 208 V.

most homes in North America receive two phases and a neutral to the fuse box.

your stove, washing machine, etc. are connected across two phases. and every thing else is connected across one phase and neutral.

and the rest of your comments do not deserve a reply.

Re:Power Grid

[unitron]

Residential 240 is single phase with a center tapped ground/neutral and 2 "hot" wires which are 180 degrees "out of phase" with each other and each with the center tap, which, when it is positive from the point of view of one of the hot wires is negative from the point of view of the other.

In a 3-phase system each of the three "hot" wires is behind or ahead of the other 2 by 120 degrees. In a Wye connected system, with the common connection of all three windings used as ground/neutral, the voltage between any one hot wire and ground/neutral is 120 Volts (averaged, same as the voltage between either hot wire and ground/neutral of a single phase center tapped system), and the voltage between any 2 of the 3 hot wires is 208 Volts.

From "Practical Electrical Wiring" by Richter & Schwan (McGraw-Hill): "A 2-phase system, which is similar in principle but inferior to a 3-phase system, is used in so few localities that it does not warrant space in this book."

An individual residence's 120/240 service may well be one of three delta connected secondary windings of a transformer with the ground/neutral connected to the center tap of that one winding, with the building's 120 Volt circuits fed by that one secondary winding's ground/neutral and one end of that secondary winding or by the center tap and the other end of that same secondary winding, and the 240 Volt circuits fed by the two ends of that one secondary winding. Call the three nodes where the ends of the 3 delta connected secondary windings connect A, B, and C. One end of the first secondary winding connects to one end of the second secondary winding at node A. The other end of the second winding connects to one end of the third winding at B. The other end of the third winding connects to the other end of the first winding at C. A residence might be fed by wires connected to A and C and a ground/neutral connected to a center tap of the winding between A and C. No wire leading from node B will run to that residence. Some other building might use A and B but not C, or B and C but not A. A to B is one phase. B to C is a second phase. C to A is the third phase. Each building's feed is one of those 3 phases, therefore it is single phase. Unless, of course, 3/3=2.

Re:Power Grid

[Pharmboy]

residential 240V service is NOT single phase.

Odd as it sounds, that IS what it is called. Two out of phase 120v circuits create a single 240v phased system. Sorry, ask your local electrician. It uses two phases, but check your local electrical code books, its CALLED single phase. I was careful to state it that way.

I am more than familiar with 208 wye and delta. Actually, delta is pretty rare these days. This is one of those fields I have to mess with every day. The company I design for sells 220 gear, some European, some American. European gear requires buck/boost transformers.

So please read your local code book and get your facts straight, like the rest of my other reply.

Re:Power Grid

[Pharmboy]

thank you for putting this more eloquently than I could. most people do not understand or believe the concept of 208 being due to 3 /120degree legs, nor understand the 1-3 phase naming convention, even tho its published widely. You explained it very clearly, and correctly.

Re:Power Grid

[harriet nyborg]

thank you for the clarification.

Re:Power Grid

[unitron]

"most people do not understand ...the 1-3 phase naming convention..."

Yeah, it's kind of like 3-way and 4-way switches.

Re:Power Grid

[Pharmboy]

Yeah, it's kind of like 3-way and 4-way switches.

God, please don't say we are going to get into SPST and DPDT conversations, too! I need a drink first......:)

Re:Power Grid

[mixmasta]

Right, sorry. My comments were overly negative, I've been grumpy lately in the morning.

However, my point still stands. Just because you didn't literaly say a particular word doesn't mean you didn't imply it or start the ad hominem yourself, despite your claims to the contrary.

Have a nice day. =)

Re:Power Grid

[gobbo]

It's not a question of better or worse engineering; engineers solve problems based on the material conditions at hand. There is tons of space in the new, spread-out N.A. urban environment, making it easy to stick transformers on the side of the road, wherever convenient, in a way that solved all kinds of economic and technical problems relevant only to the N.A. environment. My point was that the unforseen fallout of those decisions affected the ability to move a signal up and down the line. No one made that a design parameter, because who woulda thunk it was an issue!

They've got it backwards

[wcbarksdale]

The real future is in distribution of electricity over IP.

Re:They've got it backwards

[cK-Gunslinger]

Favorite line:

9. Security Considerations

This document MUST be secured in a locked cabinet to prevent it from being disposed off with the trash.

Re:They've got it backwards

[DeepDarkSky]

That would be a great idea! That way, each unit of electricity can be packetized and the packets can be counted by an IP aware electric meter, making it even easier to monitor and record usage!
Of course, then malformed electricity IP packets would have to be "retried" and not counted, saving you tons of money in electricity costs.

Re:They've got it backwards

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this mean I can save money by being DoS-flooded? Free electricity!

Of course...

[mrtroy]

I heard that the internet is on computers now, and computers need power dont they?

It is a logical choice/next step!

But seriously, why even consider this option. I would rather people looking into getting a minimum 1 foot RADIUS (not diameter) fiber optic cable coming into my house. So I can download porn, mp3's, movies, games, software, and mod chip bios's quicker. Because cable is not fast enough to meet my needs. At least I am honest.

The History of Power Grid Internet.

[jetkust]

I thought this was pretty much debunked a couple years ago?

...And a year ago...And 6 months ago...And a month ago...And a week ago...And two days ago...

It works

[GiMP]

This is not only in trial in many places, but in full-scale production.

Poland, for example, has been rolling out power-line internet for at least a year.

Re:It works

[Bastian]

I don't think whoever wrote the blurb for the story RTFA on it being debunked last time.

What was debunked is the idea that if you burn lots of money, break a few laws of physics, engineer electronic devices that can modulate information transmissions at rates orders of magnitude faster than the best we've got right now (but will cost under $60 apiece), and break a few more laws of physics, you can transmit data over the power grid in the exobit range. (That's thousands of gigabits.)

Other companies that aren't scams have had much more modest success. The idea works, the problem is finding a way to make it financially workable, too.

Re:It works

[dprice]

This is not only in trial in many places, but in full-scale production.

A friend works at a company called Satius. They are working on power-line networking equipment, and he mentioned how most of their sales are overseas. Apparently there are more competing technologies in the U.S., so the interest level isn't as high as overseas.

Re:It works

[jc42]

Yeah, and it's in limited use in the US. It does require a fairly clean power system that doesn't mess up the imposed RF signal, including not "cleaning up" the power by filtering the RF signal out. And it requires that all your electronic gear have power supplies that do filter out the RF signal (or a device that does it that's plugged into the wall outlet). I've worked in a couple of development labs where we did exactly this. But these requirements pretty much rule it out for most commercial power systems.

But the main evidence that the story was about a con job was the quote

By piggybacking on this magnetic field, instead of on the electricity itself, he could obtain almost limitless speeds of transmission. [emphasis from the article]

This clearly implies cluelessness. Now, you might not expect a manager type to understand what's wrong with this statement. But you'd expect that they'd have some EEs on their payroll, and an EE's basic reaction to such a statement would be to snicker and say "Yeah; right."

Any manager who continues saying such things after a few minutes discussing it with their EEs is clearly involved in a con, and knows it. In his next con, he's gonna market a truck that doesn't damage the roads like other trucks do. His explanation will be that trucks do their damage by harming the base that the road is built on. But his trucks only drive on the surface of the road, so they won't damage the roadbed at all.

(Hmmm ... Maybe I shouldn't suggest that. Someone will decide it's a good idea, take out a patent, and start marketing it ...)

Yeah, you can transmit data by piggybacking it on power lines. But making it work on a legacy power system is gonna be expensive. Ripping out the system and building a new one would probably be cheaper in many (if not most) existing systems.

Re:It works

[Cecil]

Terabits are thousands of gigabits. Petabits are millions of gigabits. Exobits are billions of gigabits (ie, 1 quintillion or 1e15 bits per second)

Just in case it wasn't clear what level of ridiculous claims he was actually making.

Re:It works

[drinkypoo]

I don't see why you would need filters on all your other equipment. Everything that needs a filter (electronics) runs on DC and has some level of power filtering in the power supply. I would think that the networking signal's voltage fluctuation and frequencies used would mean that it wouldn't interfere with the operation of dumb loads like lightbulbs, blenders, etc.

Re:It works

[Guppy06]

"This clearly implies cluelessness. Now, you might not expect a manager type to understand what's wrong with this statement. But you'd expect that they'd have some EEs on their payroll, and an EE's basic reaction to such a statement would be to snicker and say "Yeah; right.""

Who's this Maxwell guy and why do I keep hearing about these equations of his?

Re:It works

[jc42]

Maxwell? Didn't he have something to do with the invention of coffee?

Re:It works

[jc42]

Well, you wouldn't need filters on all of your equipment. Light bulbs and blenders will do just fine with an AC power supply that has an RF signal added.

Well, actually some blenders might not do fine. Some of them now have IC controllers, and the major problem with internet-over-wall-power is that the RF component will do "interesting" things to the sanity of a lot of cheap consumer electronic devices. Quality electronic gadgets will have a power supply that filters out the higher frequencies. But blenders are commodidy devices that are sold partly on price. They'll have the cheapest power supplies that do the job. Hitting them with a high-frequency signal that's comparable to their internal signal is a recipe for disaster, from the blender's point of view.

This is the second of the major problems with signals over the power system. It means that the power company has to install the right kind of filter at the point of entry to the customer's house. At a few hundred bucks each, a power company with a million customers can run up a pretty good bill.

But such things are getting cheaper. Several other messages here have supplied links to the companies that are selling them. It's just a matter of time before your phone and/or cable monopoly has a bit of competition.

Re:It works

[SharpFang]

Poland you say?
Don't joke please.

First, right here, my voltage rarely reaches 200V, instead of nominal 230. Losses in power grid. Just think of data losses if power losses are so high. Then, so what, if they provide fast net access to every house, if there are no backend lines? Quite big cities that hang on 15Mbit lines, 1mbit here, 2mbit there, shared between 500, 1000, 2000 users...

The power grid is just the "last mile" solution and quite good at that, but it requires a really good backbone, and without it, it's worthless.

In my city the electricity provider was attempting that. They leased 2mbit line and installed a few end stations. The price, compared to local ISPs (that usually build a web of ethernet cables between houses :) wasn't competitive at all, and people knew the 2mbit is not just the "first test" line, but the target bandwidth, so really few got into it... And so, the idea died.

Installing powergrid internet in areas of our technology level, is like fitting a trabant with turbocompressor. Sorry.

Re:It works

[unitron]

Maxwell was the guy who built Jack Benny's car.

(You're thinking of Rochester, but he was only the driver)

The equations were probably necessary in order to figure out how to do business with Jack Benny and still turn a profit.

Re:It works

[unitron]

"But his trucks only drive on the surface of the road, so they won't damage the roadbed at all."

Excellent, in the sense that it shows how ridiculous the claims are, analogy.

Don't you just love the way they imply that the data can ride the magnetic field and get to the other end a lot faster than the (large sized fraction of light speed) current that creates that field in the first place? And leaves out that once the field is changed in any way by the data waveform it will "back-EMF" that change onto the current?

Re:It works

[GiMP]

I didn't say anything about the *speed* of it, and I must admit I don't know much about it's implementation other than a few scattered mentions in Wprost which my wife reads (I cannot read polish).

Yes, the backbone sucks in poland.

Re:It works

[mink]

sounds like the average claims printed on a Monster Cable package.

how to play casino-NASDAQ

[muyuubyou]

0 A = SomeElectrical.stockShares(); 1 A.Buy();

2 echo("we can use the electrical grid to carry data at speeds faster than we've ever seen");

3 A.Sell();

4 Debunk(2);

5 GOTO 1;

Re:how to play casino-NASDAQ

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried to run this and kept getting a syntax error.

Stupid conservatives and thier anti-gambling sin taxes.

((there is no line 1 to GOTO to))

Re:how to play casino-NASDAQ

[Anonymous Coward]

It's more like:
0 A = SomeElectrical.stockShares(); 1 A.Buy();

2 echo("we can use the electrical grid to carry data at speeds faster than we've ever seen");

3 A.Sell();

4 Debunk(2);

5 You.GetArrested(InsiderTrading);

6 Prison = You;

7 B = Bubba

8 B.Assrape(You);

9 GOTO 8

Re:how to play casino-NASDAQ

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes there is. It's "1 A.Buy()" or something like that. There just wasn't a cairage return before it.

Prior art?

[AccUser]

Using the power grid for internet access is a great idea, provided that they don't later claim prior art on the use of sockets.

Re:Prior art?

[kesuki]

*rimshot noise*
Who writes your bad jokes for you?
I don't think you're paying them enough, because they're not that funny.
Maybe you'd do better with
Power line internet? Does that mean when my sockets break, I need to call an electrician?
Or
So, when I get DDOSed I can _really_ have a firewall to protect me?
See, now, you can do better...

Re:Prior art?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, those weren't funny either.

Re:Doubble Fees

[Anonymous Coward]

That was perhaps the least successful attempt at humor I've seen on slashdot in a long time. it all the requisite part (a jab at microsoft), but it was just _so_damn_unfunny_.

the google news link

[Albanach]

so you don't need to register

Redundant

[mnmn]

Most homes have powerlines, phone and TV cables going inside. These three mediums, add radio, are the obvious ones to deliver internet through.

So if the momentum has built for DSL and Cable, why push for the third option too? It all started with DSL, but the telcom companies squeezed things till the development on Cable started. Now, at least here in Toronto, the same Telcom companies are squeezing both these mediums, thus pushing for the possibilities on power lines.

Ideally, cities should have fibre lines going into homes controlled by a government department, that allows private companies to deliver the Internet and not compete with them.

Re:Redundant

[mrtroy]

Redundancy is the best way to go!

Look at a RAID...it makes use of a large number of slow storage to make one fast storage system!

Maybe the true future lies in redundancy, having the Internet over all 3 will allow for the most reliable and fastest service!

I, for one, would call it DUMB (da unusual method biotch)

Re:Redundant

[SerpentMage]

Speak for yourself guy. You know there are a large number of people who cannot get Cable or DSL... These people are stuck, with well 56K. This would be wonderful if it actually worked. BTW I am talking from a place that is 15 KM from a DSL and Cable connection. 15 KM, not 100 KM or 200 KM, but 15KM and nothing has changed in five years!!!!

Re:Redundant

[stripes]

So if the momentum has built for DSL and Cable, why push for the third option too?

Because there are lots of places that don't have DSL, or IP over Cable TV...and even more places that don't have both. It's nice to have something avilable, but even nicer to have more then one thing so they can compete...

Re:Redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

In the US maybe. But cable TV isn't such a big thing in europe. I don't know about asia. But africa I expect it would be reasonably useful to skip phone lines and go VOIP over power cables.

For remote areas wireless and distributed power generation would have to be the answer.

Re:Redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

That works great for cities. A lot of people (even a few km from your precious Toronto) don't have DSL or Cable, and phone/cable companies are useless to provide them if it's not profitable. I doubt if we'd even have telephones out here if the government didn't legislate it years ago -- they're "operating at a loss" out in the boonies and you city-folk are paying for it.

Right now we have three options:
- 56K modem (*yuck*)
- Bell ExpressVu Satellite Edition (for which you also need dial-up)
- wireless (limited coverage)

There are other satellite options, but they're hella expensive.

The beauty of power lines is that *everybody* has them, where *everybody* is a computer-user.

Fast + affordable (probably) + convenient + available = SUCCESS

I, for one, would be the first one in line to sign up if they ever brought it to SW Ontario.

Re:Redundant

[praedor]

DSL and cable are NOT the answer. They are fine if you live in a city but if you are rural you are SOL. Satellite is NOT a real option. Pricey and limited in usefulness. The only option left for rural individuals is powerline.

I frickin' want a broadband connection that doesn't break the bank and doesn't suffer major latency issues. I see no option but some form of powerline transmission. Wireless is not an option for most rural people.

Re:Redundant

[Saltine Cracker]

Ideally, cities should have fibre lines going into homes controlled by a government department, that allows private companies to deliver the Internet and not compete with them.

I don't know about you, but the less government controlled crap that comes into my house the better!

Re:Redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely! I do NOT have the ability to get DSL or even ISDN and the Qwest has NO IDEAS when they will ever get it to my location. Their answer was just keep calling us back... that was about 3 years ago. As for cable, nope not where I live-- six miles towards town yes, but not here. Oops, there is/was a small mom n' pop cable company but I doubt they would have had internet cabability. Within the last six months a local wireless ISP got a tower up on a peak that could reach me and now I get an EXCELLENT connect at a reasonable cost-- bye-bye daily dial-up. Dial-up was really bad as I do a great deal of tele-commuting.

I'm very happy now with my wireless but competing technologies would be good. My only concern is that power-grid is run by a monopoly (hmm sounds familiar... sorta like the phone and cable companies) so I don't know that we'll see a great deal of innovation or price competition from them... :-(

Re:Redundant

[garcia]

then there are places like here that have only cable and wireless (which is out of the acceptable price range).

15 miles from downtown Minneapolis and I can only get Comcast. What a crock of crap. My parents live in Northeast PA (10 miles from fucking Scranton, PA) and they have DSL and Cable.

Hmm.

Re:Redundant

[zdislaw]

I'm all for as many choices as possible. I can't help thinking about the DSL ads we saw in my neck of the woods: "My cable is always going out, but my phone always works...blah blah blah..." I guess it really depends on where you live, but at least in my neighborhood, power is interrupted much more often than either cable or phone.

Re:Redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

15 KM, not 100 KM or 200 KM, but 15KM and nothing has changed in five years!!!!

Well, yeah - continental drift's much slower than 15km in 5 years.

Re:Redundant

[Grotus]

True, but how much surfing can you do without power anyway?

Re:Redundant

[Iguanaphobic]

You mean you rest of the world.

260 million people using the Imperial Measures, all in the good old U.S.A. The 5.8 billion people, everywhere else (including the rest of the British Empire) using metric.

Re:Redundant

[Iguanaphobic]

I don't know about you, but the less government controlled crap that comes into my house the better!

You mean, like, CNN?

Re:Redundant

[ckulpa]

Yeah, a government department. That will fix everything!

Re:Redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

These three mediums, add radio, are the obvious ones to deliver internet through.

How about water pipes? Anyone for IP/H20?

Re:Redundant

[nmg]

And you're all fucking loony.

Re:Redundant

[nmg]

This is Socialistdot, remember.

Re:Redundant

[Ranger Rick]

So what you're saying is, "I built/bought a house in an area that is clearly behind the technology curve infrastructure-wise, but I want it I want it I want it, and I'm not willing to pay extra even though it costs X times as much to bring it to my area."

Sure, I bet many people think it would be nice to have things up-to-date in rural areas, but guess what: it won't ever happen that way. That's one of the things you signed on for when you decided to live away from a population center.

Re:Redundant

[dnoyeb]

Rural areas are perfect for WiFi...

Re:Redundant

[MojoRilla]

The irony here is that for the very reason you cannot get DSL or cable service, you might not also be able to get powerline service. You might be too far from the central office.

Re:Redundant

[kasperd]

I don't know about you, but the less government controlled crap that comes into my house the better!

I'd rather have something government controlled than something controlled by a company with monopoly on communication infrastructure. And keep in mind that the control should only be over the lowest possible levels below IP. The control should only ensure that line and bandwidth is available. On top of the physical line any ISP can implement the necesarry range of protocols including: ARP, IP, DHCP, DNS. And you will get competition like never before, because sudenly anybody with a 100-1000mbit/sec backbone connection and three highend PCs can become an ISP. The backbone itself can to large extents be implemented using the same network. Of course those who worry about security is going to encrypt their communication, that can happen below the IP layer or above (possibly both).

Re:Redundant

[Iguanaphobic]

No, we spend loonies.

Better than Minnie Mouse. She's fucking Goofy and Mickey is not pleased.

Re:Redundant

[TKinias]

scripsit Iguanaphobic:

260 million people using the Imperial Measures, all in the good old U.S.A.

And that one greengrocer in the U.K. who would rather do jail time than sell a kilo of veggies...

Re:Redundant

[kasperd]

It all started with DSL, but the telcom companies squeezed things till the development on Cable started.

Really? In the city where I live internet over cable was available years before DSL. But only one cable provider implemented it, they did however offer amazing speeds of up to 4mbit/sec the first few years. Then they started a commercial campaign stating that they were simply the best provider, which was true at that time. They no longer are the best. Their prices have increased while their speed have dropped. They still claim they are the best however.

Re:Redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir, are in serious need of a new attitude. I suppose you would like to eat NOTHING! You forget where all your vegetables, meat, milk, fruit, etc... come from. Lay off the rural folk...they have the same rights you do. Broadband internet can make life AND business a lot better.

Re:Redundant

[Mr. No Skills]

I'd rather have something government controlled than something controlled by a company with monopoly on communication infrastructure.

I'm not sure there would be a major difference between this being controlled by a "monopoly" or the "government". Both are entrenched organizations with no responsiveness to their customers. Where I am, government currently has responsibility for transportation, educating kids, fighting crime, and distributing help to those needing it. None of these seem to be happening without congestion, poor performance, cost overruns, and insiders gaining profit. Much like my ISP.

I'd be more in favor of community Co-ops or small region solutions to last mile and ISP support, then somebody (maybe the government) just provides backbone services like NSF used to.

Re:Redundant

[Desmeso]

You know you are famous when you have your very own stalker
HAR!

Billy, you are the best melty-creature ever. Three posts and you're already a victim eh?

Hil-arious. Well, this is the fourth one, so I guess that makes me a murderer, right Billy?

I need a funky groovy tagline now too! yay me!

Re:Redundant

[Danse]

Lay off the rural folk...they have the same rights you do. Broadband internet can make life AND business a lot better.

Whatever. I suppose all us city-dwellers have a right to 10 acres of land to roam around on as well? Maybe we should all have a nice creek running near the house too. Get over yourself. You made a decision that has consequences, so did everyone else. Deal with it.

Re:Redundant

[Ath]

What kind of nerd are you!?! Are suggesting that we shouldn't care about a new technology?

How did you get TCP/IP working on your TRS-80?

Re:Redundant

[Mr. No Skills]

Wireless is not an option for most rural people.

Perhaps I state the obvious, but, remote areas are always going to be, well, remote areas. It's probably an unrealistic expectation to think that all the services can be extended to rural areas. Even getting power is difficult without massive subsidies to offset the extra expense. Most likely there are technical challenges to extending WAN links through power lines over long distances as well. DSL and cable have their real physical limitations, and I'm sure there are ultimate lengths to power line distribution as well.

Re:Redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose all us city-dwellers have a right to 10 acres of land to roam around on as well? Maybe we should all have a nice creek running near the house too. Go for it. You won't see me stopping you. Of course it's a choice. At the same time, if there's a way to provide the services, "rural people don't matter anyways" isn't a reason at all to prevent it from happening.

Re:Redundant

[harlows_monkeys]

why push for the third option too?

• DSL is the the only reason I have a phone line (my cell phone plan has enough minutes to cover all my voice calls). It would be nice to be able to drop that
• Phone lines and CATV lines don't necessarily come into the house where I want the computer. I've got power sockets all over the place
• Both DSL and cable have limitations that power lines might not have

Re:Redundant

[Danse]

No, but "it'll cost a helluvalot more than you want to pay" is a pretty good reason.

Re:Redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

The 5.8 billion people, everywhere else (including the rest of the British Empire) using metric.

There was an Onion article about inner city youth using the metric system. For example, researchers found the kids could accurately measure a kilogram of powder, although they had to stop the experiment because the scales kept disappearing. Also, they could tell what was meant by 9mm.

Re:Redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

The beauty of power lines is that *everybody* has them, where *everybody* is a computer-user.

I run my system off a hand-crank generator, you insensitive cl

I gotcha last mile RIGHT HERE!

[siskbc]

2000kbps might not be a lot over there but it's still faster than the 512k/1024k that's the norm over here.

Hmmm...most consumer broadband options are in the 500kbps area in the US too. If this stuff were to become viable, it would certainly shutup the damned telcos and their last mile, I expect, as it's already wired.

I'm sure this is exactly what the current providers want, though. Not only do they have to compete with cable companies (and now satellite as well) to provide internet, now they have the frikkin' power company too. They're just lucky the power companies are too busy price-fixing to bother with this.

Re:I gotcha last mile RIGHT HERE!

[mabhatter654]

Essentially, there's no difference from your house between DSL over phone or power lines! The problem is that phone lines go more-or-less directly to the CO, whereas power lines go thru lots of step-down transformers! Power lines also don't limit the electrical noise [from 5000 ton electric presses] like phone lines do!

The one advantage they have is that they own the poles and the right-of-way! If they wanted to string fibre, they could do it very cheaply. Their other option is to co-locate their network stuff at the service stations further down the pipe--and bypass the big nasty transformers. Most power cos already use network services to manage the substations anyway, so the uplink to the net isn't an issue-but it is political.

Huh.

[Geekenstein]

So the next time I shock myself, I might get some pr0n too?

With my luck, my hair will probably just stand up in the form of an x10 popup ad....sigh.

Re:Huh.

[Alcohol Fueled]

Either that, or it'll stand up in the form of a penis enlargement ad. Then you'd be a real dickhead. :P

no registration

[HeyBob!]

trick learned from a previous post:
replace www with archive to avoid the registration
link

Re:no registration

[mrtroy]

Can slashdot posters/modders make sure that the actual article gets posted this way

instead of modding down a GOOD post and ignoring this time after time with NYT posts

Re:no registration

[Anonymous Coward]

And when NYT finally pull this because all the /.'ers aren't registering?

Typical whiny Linux fetishists. All this talk of free software is the usual warez behaviour dressed up in fake morals.....

Re:no registration

[micromoog]

It's because, obviously, NYT is paying Slashdot not to. Slashdot does accept corporate sponsors.

This also explains why we have so many articles about new Apple toys, new O'Reilly books, etc. Slashdot is not, and doesn't claim to be, impartial. And the sponsors aren't just limited to the banners and big-ass square ads around here . . . the content, too, is for sale.

Re:no registration

[Anonymous Coward]

trick learned from a previous post:
replace www with archive to avoid the registration

One problem with that trick: the "printer friendly link" doesn't seem to work with the "archived" version of the story. Can't speak for anyone else, but I whenever I find an interesting news story online, I always try to save the printer-friendly version as opposed to the normal version with all the ads and graphics.

Re:no registration

[bogie]

"All this talk of free software is the usual warez behaviour dressed up in fake morals..."

Yea those dam Linux users. Always warezing free linux distros and free software. Bunch of fakers they are.

Re:no registration

[Pharmboy]

Slashdot does accept corporate sponsors.

Then who the hell is paying for all these Microsoft ads on Slashdot? Is Taco running them for free, to make up for all the MS bashing he does?

Re:no registration

[unitron]

A corporate sponsor is different from an advertiser. Masterpiece Theater never ran any "spots" for Mobil Oil, that is, announcements about how wonderful their products are, but Mobil Oil was a corporate sponsor of Masterpiece Theater, and got announcements that said that without expressing any opinion of the quality of Mobil's products.

Re:no registration

[Pharmboy]

A corporate sponsor is different from an advertiser. Masterpiece Theater never ran any "spots" for Mobil Oil, that is, announcements about how wonderful their products are, but Mobil Oil was a corporate sponsor of Masterpiece Theater, and got announcements that said that without expressing any opinion of the quality of Mobil's products.

A bit of symantics. Then technically NO company sponsors /. Then again, every TV program used to say "this program sponsored by...". Once again, symantics. In the context of the original comment, I still feel my take applies.

They debunked ONE theory of how to do it.

[gurps_npc]

Wires to house carrying electricity can definitely carry communication. Just because the FCC debunked one lunatic's theory as being garbage does not mean that the product can not be made.

Their is nothing in the concept that fundamentally contradicts laws of nature, so it can be done, we just have to figure out how to do it efficently.

Re:They debunked ONE theory of how to do it.

[pe1rxq]

It can be done, but the same fundamental laws of nature also explain why the electricity grid is going to radiate like hell.
In short it is possible, but not without pissing of everyboddy that is currently using the RF spectrum.
The power grid was never ment for this...

Jeroen

Re:They debunked ONE theory of how to do it.

[gurps_npc]

No. You are assuming WAY to much. A better way to say it is:

In short it is possible, but using the relatively insensitive machines that were proposed once before, without changing the specs of the power currently being transferd, the signal would have to be so strong that the electricity grid would radiate excessively, And the proposed means of shielding that raditaion is so expensive so as not to be worth it.

It CAN be donel. You do realize that your phone's run off of the electriicty supplied by the phone line (I.e. unless your phone has an answering machine it does not need to be plugged in.)

There are 3 Barriers to doing it, and if we conquer ANY one of those barriers we can do it: [li]Use far more sensitive reading and writing mechanisms (or a dramitcally different method). [li]Use good RF shielding on the power lines [li]Change the power grid specs dramatically.

While changing the shield or the power grid specs dramatically would require a massive revision of our powergrid, the first option is VERY likely to occure with the next 10 years, if it has not already happened, and will not be expensive or require masive upgrades.

Re:They debunked ONE theory of how to do it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Did not see this in your post.
The US uses induction transformers, how will the signal get through the transformer? There is no touching wires, one coil induces a charge in the other coil.

Just curious.

Re:They debunked ONE theory of how to do it.

[unitron]

"The US uses induction transformers, how will the signal get through the transformer?"

The power company transmits a 60 Hz "signal" through those transformers just fine. The question here is how much higher in frequency a signal can also be efficiently coupled from one winding to the other. The higher the frequency the greater the bandwidth possible.

Radio Interference

[kinnell]

There are already trials going on in Scotland for IP over power lines, which aparently have been very successful. The only problem is that RF engineers are up in arms over the interference caused by transmitting high frequency signals through overhead power lines. They may have a point - the RF spectrum is a precious resource, and it would be a shame to waste it to save a bit of effort laying cables.

Re:Radio Interference

[Johku]

There is less interference if you limit the data transmissions to underground power lines only. But it is not a perfect solution to the problem.

Re:Radio Interference

[dmd]

the RF spectrum is a precious resource

Haven't you been reading? Interference is a myth!

Re:Radio Interference

[Anonymous Coward]

Only if we could all afford programmable phase arrays, broadband receivers, and screaming DSPs to pull the signal out, but we're stuck with today's technology, so interference is still a problem.

Seems to be an interesting technology...

[Roland of Gilead]

...that is in use in Scotland and other countries. Here is a link to a site: http://www.mainnet-plc.com/ Here is the link to the Scottish internet via powerlines supplier: http://www.hydro.co.uk/broadband/ I "Asked /." a query regarding this technology (alas, the query never made it to the site), and am still wondering if this technology is: A) for real b) will make it out to my "where" as we have no option beyond 56K dialup or VERY expensive and high lag satellite internet. :)

Re:Seems to be an interesting technology...

[stiggle]

We've had the basics of transmitting data over powerlines for a while.
Baby monitors work that way - which is why you can use them in some of your neighbours houses to monitor the baby at home (if they are on the same phase as you).
There have been LAN versions of "data over power" in the past - the only new thing is that its a MAN/WAN system now, which is good.
I live on the coast, miles from anyone else, and fairly close to the side of a large grantite mountain. I have enough trouble getting TV signals - so no IP via satellite for me, or DSL. I'm lucky if I get 40Kbs from the modem.

Competition

[BeowulfSchaeffer]

If this helps lower the cost of high speed access, I am all for it. If AMD were not making chips, we would still be paying $600 for a PII 300. Competition is good.

Re:Competition

[unitron]

If neither AMD nor any other company were competing with Intel we'd be awaiting the debut of the 486 "real soon now". Even Moore's law depends on competition to drive semiconductor manufacturers to continually develop the new techniques and technologies necessary to be able to double the number of transistors per unit of area every 18 months.

and it will never work

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone knows about the problems with pylons acting as transmitters but there is actually another reason why the electricity grid is highly unsuitable for transmitting information over.

The problem is that the higher frequency signal you used for the data transfer slightly distorts the 50HZ sine wave used to carry the power. Now for a lot of appliences this isn't a problem but for applications where a pure current is important (high end hi-fi comes to mind) this will severly impact on the performance of that device.

Sure it's trivial to incorporate rectifiers into new devices but do you want to be the guy from the electricity company having to tell people that they now have to replace their $5000 amp?

Re:and it will never work

[stubaggs]

As a audiophool myself, I asure you that there is already a expensive filter in place before the hi-fi. (some folks I know even have a dedicated outlet for the hi-fi). whatever.

Re:and it will never work

[Inda]

You honestly think you get a constant 50hz at the moment? As I've said on here before; The turbines don't spin at exactly 3000rpm all the time. I've seen them with my own eyes.

I can even look at a dozen live turbine speeds from this workstation...

Re:and it will never work

[Globe199]

Sure it's trivial to incorporate rectifiers into new devices but do you want to be the guy from the electricity company having to tell people that they now have to replace their $5000 amp?

If you can afford a $5000 amp, you can afford another one.

Globe199

Re:and it will never work

[rusty0101]

In the US, no one gets 50hz power. We tend to get 60hz. (note this is the reason that TV's operate with a 30hz full screen re-fresh in the US, and a 25hz full screen re-fressh in most of the rest of the world.

-Rusty

Re:and it will never work

[Biff Stu]

I suppose this could lead to interference in some analog electronics. How about a $20 filter on the wall socket?

By they way, anybody who spent 5 grand on high end analog electronics that didn't include a good power line filter got ripped off.

Re:and it will never work

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm, have you ever looked at the mains signal coing into your house? I remember doing this once and saw something that kinda resembled a sine wave but it wasn't pure.

Things like cookers, washing machines and refrigerators may be able to tolerate imperfect sine waves but these devices also contaminate the mains supply with their inductive load demands.

I would expect that high-end amps would have the filters in place anyway. Surely it's part of the cost and what differentiates the high-end amp from a low-end amp?

Just my 2 cents worth.
Paul

Re:and it will never work

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, and not only that, but the nominal voltage also varies, as well as the power factor. The wall outlet most definitely is not a constant source. Any quality piece of kit will be designed with that in mind.

Besides, if you've got a (mostly) pure sine wave at 50Hz, and you're using that as a carrier for a much higher frequency signal, it seems pretty trivial to put a notch filter on it. Even a simple second order RLC circuit will do the trick as long as the quality factor is low enough to give you a bandwidth that allows for variations to that 50 Hz carrier.

Re:and it will never work

[Anonymous Coward]

I call BS.

If your "hi-fi" amplifier doesn't have a thingie called a "power supply" which filters all the >60Hz content down to a nice steady DC for the analog electronics to use, then you got ripped off. As for "severly" (maybe you meant "severely") impacting (impact is not a verb) the performance, get real. Properly designed electronics have a sufficient PS rejection ratio that even a visible ripple on the DC won't affect sound quality. Maybe it'd affect your old transformerless AC/DC AM radio, but...

Re:and it will never work

[Anonymous Coward]

You think you get a clean sin wave out of the wall? The signal coming out of the wall frankly sucks, and if you're depending on it being clean, then you're an idiot

Re:and it will never work

[Richy_T]

Anyone who spent 5 grand on a hi-fi would want the $200 power filter with gold plated prongs and a green ring around it.

Rich

Re:and it will never work

[unitron]

"Besides, if you've got a (mostly) pure sine wave at 50Hz, and you're using that as a carrier for a much higher frequency signal,..."

then all you need is a low-pass filter to pass the 50 Hz and severly attenuate the high frequency signal (or a high-pass filter to do it the other way around). A notch filter (an inverted bandpass filter, basically) is unnecessary, and unnecessarily expensive, overkill.

Poster should RTFA!

[Si_Cowboy_03]

What was debunked was some scam artist's idea of transmitting data not through the power line, but the EM field generated by the power line. Using wires to transmit data is a solid idea, using EM waves as a waveguide is not. Please, RTFA!

Re:Poster should RTFA!

[Damon Campagna]

Actually, I did RTFA, back in 2001, and again this morning. That article has also been posted on Slashdot in the past.I sited it as the most extreme form of failure of this power-line idea, not as a comparison of the two systems.

Perhaps I should've been more clear in my post as to the difference, but this subject has come up time and time again on slashdot and no matter what the method, the technology has been panned.

I assumed that most slashdot readers have come across these posts in the past, and for that I apologize.

I'll also add that the other trials that have gone on in Europe have pretty much been stopped due to RF interference, so I am surprised that Mike Powell (aka, Colin's kid, future POTUS) is backing it.

Re:Poster should RTFA!

[Anonymous Coward]

do you listen to (read) what you say...
or do you drift in and out?

Re:Poster should RTFA!

[Damon Campagna]

I can only assume you're referring to my post, where I present my explanation and but add a snipe at Michael Powell at the end. I was trying to draw a dialogue where you go, "yeah you're right, wrong, this is why, whatever..." It's called, uh, "communication," where maybe I learn something new and you do too.

If you have trouble juggling even two thoughts at once maybe you should stop playing so much "snake" on your cell phone and troll somewhere else.

Re:Great....

[Anonymous Coward]

They would be X110 ads.

The NYT Back door link

[phrantic]

Simply remove the www of the original url and replace it with archive, works for all NYT articles as far as i know.

Re:The NYT Back door link

[gpinzone]

Anyone know of a way in Proxmitron to set up a filter to do the swapping for me?

Re:The NYT Back door link

[jafiwam]

I am not 100% sure, but you could use a hosts entry to bounce the www request off the web server of your choice. Then use a redirect on that web server from www.nytimes.com to archive.nytimes.com. Just use a variable for anything after the .com part and you can click on any link and get the archive version.

Of course, once they figure that out, you'll find yourself on the block list. But if you dont use it much they may not spot you.

I don't like this because...

[johannesg]

...with my computer, I have a choice of unplugging the net connection if I don't like it for whatever reason. But if the connection is both always-on, and through the same feed that I need to power the computer in the first place, I lose another bit of control over my own equipment. And yes, I always have my computer connected anyway, and yes I have a firewall. But I would not want for example my TV to be connected to the internet (so it can transmit the programs I watch). And with internet over the power grid I may at some point no longer have a choice.

Re:I don't like this because...

[Jaycatt]

I would imagine that, like DSL does with phone lines, there would be some kind of splitter that would still feed into your network card. Don't want the net connected? Just unplug the network cable. Besides, think of how power supplies would have to be changed to route network data through them.

Re:I don't like this because...

[DJPenguin]

I hope you're joking :)

Just because the network connection arrives through the power lines doesn't mean it will enter your PC through the power supply! There's bound to be some sort of decoding/demuxing box at the power entry point in your house, and you'd plug the network connection into that.

Re:I don't like this because...

[pboulang]

...with my computer, I have a choice of unplugging the net connection if I don't like it for whatever reason. But if the connection is both always-on, and through the same feed that I need to power the computer in the first place, I lose another bit of control over my own equipment. And yes, I always have my computer connected anyway, and yes I have a firewall. But I would not want for example my TV to be connected to the internet (so it can transmit the programs I watch). And with internet over the power grid I may at some point no longer have a choice.

(a) You think you use the same cable to get ISP connectivity? That's kinda funny. Like thinking that if you have DSL, then you must assign an IP to your phones.

(b) Even if you have a network cable melted into the AC that you couldn't unplug, what OS do you run that you can't disable your connection?

(c) You obviously haven't thought this through. You have a firewall... any bets on how well configured it is?

Re:I don't like this because...

[user32.ExitWindowsEx]

(b) Even if you have a network cable melted into the AC that you couldn't unplug, what OS do you run that you can't disable your connection?

Windows Longhorn probably wouldn't let you disable it.

lightning and....

[zogger]

... what happens with lightning and other sorts of accidents to the lines? Any EE's want to comment? It's already hard enough in summer thunderstorm season, I just assume I will lose a modem every summer, even with these phone line surge things. What happens even if you are miles away from where the lightning hits, perhaps no storm in your area?

I just wonder if this tech is really all that practical in most areas of the US that get storms all the time, but will admit I don't know, hence the asking.

Thanks in advance

Re:lightning and....

[Anonymous Coward]

What happens? Your computer explodes and kills everything within a 1/2 mile radius.

Related article today on C|Net

[Dave21212]

There is a related article today on C|Net via Reuters:

The head of the Federal Communications Commission gave his blessing on Wednesday to an emerging technology that would provide high-speed Internet service through power lines.

FCC Chairman Michael Powell toured a house in suburban Maryland that had been set up to showcase the new service, which transmits e-mail, Web pages, telephone service and other data over the existing power grid and through standard electrical outlets.

In the living room, Powell listened to an Internet radio broadcast and watched the movie "Ice Age" on a flat-screen 42-inch television streaming from another computer miles away.

ComputerUser.com has a longer and more detailed article.

As a Marylander who despises ComCast, I'm hopeful !

Re:Related article today on C|Net

[unitron]

That computeruser article, though interesting, doesn't say anything about the lower and upper frequencies of the signal imposed upon the power lines, or the voltage at which those frequencies would be imposed. It does, however, seem to indicate that this is designed to push bits down the lines to the subscriber but not necessarily up the line from the subscriber. Yet another way for The Powers That Be to deliver Pay-Per-View is not exactly what I'm looking for.

William "Luke" Stewart

[bhny]

that con-man William "Luke" Stewart, mentioned in the Wired article, still seems to have a company/web site pushing his snake oil-
http://nicmedia.com/

They're just tests ( at this point)

[Vinnie_333]

There are still, at this point, too many regulatory issues with this for it to be passed. True, the FCC is conducting a dozen or so field tests, but if they get serious about it they will issue a notice of intent to get comments from the people concerned.

Re:They're just tests ( at this point)

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. The AP article says: "Powell said the FCC is excited about the power line technology and is studying whether it needs regulation. No current rules prohibit the technology, but the FCC is concerned that Internet transmissions carried over power lines could emit signals inside and outside the home that cause interference."

In other words, he wants the technology, and they have the green light UNLESS it causes problems with existing technologies. Promoting this is an official part of the FCC agenda: 2003 FCC Agenda (PDF). See page 17.

There was footage of the demo from Maryland on the local Ch. 4 news. They played MotoGP online from Xbox Live. I.e., it's not a fake VCR scam. They interviewed one of the beta testers who uses powerline broadband now. It's real. The question is whether it's economically viable.

Voice over IP over power lines

[Johku]

Couple of weeks ago I saw a short data-over-power-grid demonstration in Finnish television. They demonstrated how you could connect an IP telephone to power outlet and make a phone call through power grid. I think their idea was that it is easier for them to provide functionality similar to the telephone network than vice versa (when talking about last mile solutions).

The topic has been quite frequently up in Finnish media because Turku Energia (home page in Finnish) has been selling their new data-ower-power-grid product to consumers since January.

This has been discussed before of course:

[colinramsay]

Both here, and umpteen other articles.

Is it really necessary to have so many permutations of such a well covered topic?

Has interesting anti-spam potential.

[djh101010]

At last - a way to get back at spammers. Read the headers, do some digging, and WHAM - 14,000 volts right to 'em.

Debunked?

[tarnin]

Really? I work for an isp and we provide the backbone for a local powercompany to do just this. Also, there are 3 other, smaller, powercompanies in my area (SE MASS) doing this.

I feel like a pioneer

[EvilTwinSkippy]

How many of you remember those heathkit intercoms? They carried your voice over the power lines inside of the house by modulating them at a higher frequency that 60 hz. The reciever, of course, was a simple 60Hz filter attached to an amp.

It worked quite well, especially since it had a built in power source. Gotta wonder why more folks aren't running the LAN off of this principle.

Though if you were going to do this on any large scale, you MIGHT want to equip your appliances with a band-pass filter to prevent the higher frequency signals from interfering with your switching power supplies.

It won't work for any large organization, unless someone can figure out a way to implement packet switching. Your collision rate would be terrible with everybody connected to a giant dumb hub. I'm pretty sure the same traffic protocols used for wireless would solve this problem too.

Re:I feel like a pioneer

[Student_Tech]

It's called Homeplug for the network over powerlines w/in the house, read about the spec getting completed here.

Re:I feel like a pioneer

[Anonymous Coward]

This has been done before, it was coming up big and there were products on the market unitl 802.11 took over the wireless market and there was no need for networking over powerlines. THe products were still kinda iffy and slow.

Really redundant

[GQuon]

I guess it really depends on where you live, but at least in my neighborhood, power is interrupted much more often than either cable or phone.
So then you have to go online and watch TV in the dark. Much as how they did before electric power was invented.

Re:Really redundant

[zdislaw]

TV is best with no power. Or to smack repeatedly with a bat. Either way, yes...were my power to go out, the fact that I still had cable would be rather moot, wouldn't it?

Re:Really redundant

[shadowbearer]

I dropped a 19" out of a 3 story apartment window into an empty dumpster in the alleyway once.

What a blast that was. Talk about an earth-shattering *kaboom*. Funny thing was, nobody even seemed to notice. No cops, nothing. *grin*

SB

Re:Really redundant

[zdislaw]

I swear I was not drinking (much) when I hurled a glass ashtray through the screen of my 19" when the news jsut pissed me off too much. The 3 story drop sounds good, but you have not lived until you've seen a vacuum tube go while still plugged in. :->

Re:Really redundant

[shadowbearer]

As long as I'm not sitting in front of it! :-)

Were you watching sports, or the news? Heh.

SB

Re:Really redundant

[zdislaw]

Most likely it was politics. I'm not exactly sure because when I woke up in the morning I had only the foggiest memory of the event. Mostly the explosion. So obviously I lied: I was in fact drinking. Sports doesn't make me mad, just bored.

Re:Really redundant

[shadowbearer]

LOL agreed about sports. Never understood why some people get so fanatical about watching sports (I like a good backyard scrap game of football once in a while, but I'm not fanatical about it).

Politics makes me mostly angry. That shouldn't surprise anyone :-)

Doggone two minute wait...

"Karma: Incredible: Please wait 2 days before posting again:-)"

SB

not the cure to broadband availability

[WeaponOfMassDestruct]

I don't see how this could be economically viable in a large scale. Not that it's not possible in small highly controlled circumstances. If a city decided to upgrade it's electical infrastructure to allow this then sure. But it seems like to make this work on *any* electrical lines would be tremendously difficult.

Can it be done? Yes. Will this be the cure-all for rural broadband? Probably not. Not because it's not possible but because the $$$ won't make it worth the capital outlays it would require.

Happening in Pennsylvania!

[Maeryk]

PP&L (pennsylvania power and light) has been testing this here for a few months. I tried hard to get in on the pilot, but I dont live in the right geographical location.

Turns out it is my ISP handling the broadband end anyway, and as I already have DSL through them, it probably wouldnt make much difference. The speeds that PP&L quoted me are just about the same as the DSL speeds I am already getting.

So its not "debunked" its just not controlled by the FCC at the moment.

Maeryk

Scottish Hydro

[cruachan]

Are running a series of trials, one in Crieff - a small town about 20 miles from where I sit. Given British Telecom's ridiculous criteria for only installing ADSL where there is 'sufficient demand'* there's been a great deal of interest in the Scottish Highlands and Borders for alternative suppliers. Scottish Enterprise have some info at http://www.scottish-enterprise.com/sedotcom_home/s ervices-to-business/broadband/broadband-news_event s/broadband-projects/broadband-power_line_trial.ht m

*British Telecom regularly seem to leave something to be desired when it comes to 'public service'. A friend of mine has this story about how he recently installed an ADSL modem for a business in the centre of Glasgow - a city of nearly two million people. Naturally he assumed that ADSL would be available so neglected to explicitly check, and he was consequently scunnered when BT told him that it wasn't available due to 'insufficient demand'. Apparently the local exchange serviced quite a small area, and one where there was a disproportionate number of warehouses and areas under redevelopment, so despite being right in the middle of the city it had not met BT's criteria. Fortunatly given where they were the embaressment factor was sufficiently high that BT upgraded the exchange anyway, but it just demonstrates what we're up against.

Re:Scottish Hydro

[geomon]

Given British Telecom's ridiculous criteria for only installing ADSL where there is 'sufficient demand'

I suspect that BTs refusal probably has more to do with their dislike of haggis.

Obligatory haggis joke now over, we return you to your normal programming.

got work to do

[Anonymous Coward]

Two things prevent net-over-power happening now in U.S.

One is incumbent powercos like PG&E who will block any attempt at decentralized community based net-over-power. With the help of FCC and other self-interested federal agencies they'll keep blocking net-over-power for maybe another 2-5 years before general awareness is too high and they cave to widespread consumer demand.

The other is IBEW, also known as International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. This sexist, Old World organization of male electrical workers has frequently worked with lobbyists and legislators nationwide to bury initiatives like net-over-power and will continue to do so until dissolved.

Why, why? Powercos & IBEW are control freaks. If they can't control this technology & the pursestrings to this technology they'll do everything they can to stop it. Don't believe me? Look at their track record for adopting green energy, like wind and solar power. It's taken decades for alternative energies to go mainstream when it could've taken just a few years.

Not a last mile solution

[sxltrex]

I suspect this is more for backbone support rather than for last mile. Data transmission has a bitch of a time with stepdown transformers, which you've got everywhere that high voltage transmission is lowered to a more reasonable voltage for residential distribution.

Re:Not a last mile solution

[PurpleFloyd]

I doubt anyone would run a backbone over a roughly 2Mbps best case system. While this might be good for rural ISPs (a little better than a T1 if conditions are good), it isn't gonna replace ~10Gbps backbone connections.

From what I understand (and I'm no expert, but I have looked into this stuff) this is a possible last-mile solution; running a fast 'net connection to the nearest electrical substation and then putting a decoder on the power pole just shy of a pole pig would get the signal to within a few hundred feet of most residences; a simple coax, fiber, or even cat5 cable would take it the rest of the way.

IS THIS TRUE OR NOT....

[Guysdrinkingbeer]

Every few weeks I read some story about how this idea is going to solve the last mile problem, then another story about how this will not work.
Is this some type of tech urban legend along the lines of the USPS putting a tax on email.

Can someone please point me in a direction to the truth.
1) Will it work?
a) If yes, then what do we have to do?
b) If no, then what are the other options?

Thanks.

Re:IS THIS TRUE OR NOT....

[Anonymous Coward]

Yha, is this true or not:

Did Jesus really exist or just a myth?
Is the sun really going to blow up in 10,00,000 years?

Can't you proove these things?

Some would say that if you don't have it, it doesn't exist.

Re:IS THIS TRUE OR NOT....

[shepd]

>Did Jesus really exist or just a myth?

There is clear historical evidence he existed. Any debate would be over whether he had supernatural powers or not, which isn't provable unless you could timewarp.

>Is the sun really going to blow up in 10,00,000 years?

Again, I'm sure a good Physicist can tell you the answer.

And internet over powerlines only has to be tested to show it works. And it has been, and it does work. Just not all that well.

I'm pretty happy with cable...

[repetty]

I'm pretty happy with cable, however, I'd really like to see that 100-mile/gallon car hit the market.

--Richard

early variation...

[rusty0101]

Don't know if you have noticed it, but the power company has not been sending out nearly as many meter readers as they have in the past. Rural Electric Co-ops have not needed to send out cards for the customer to write down the meter readings and send back either.

Why? Because the various electric companies have been replacing their meters with new meters that report back what the current reading is, over the electric lines themselves. Granted this does not require high bandwidth connectivity, but when you consider the number of meters involved, it is unlikely to be operating at 110 bps either.

-Rusty

Re:early variation...

[Anonymous Coward]

Many years ago when the big electrical companies refused to supply electricity to residences and farmers residing in the rural setting. Rural CoOps spang up. These are ran non-profit and are managed by the very people who use the service. Cheap realiable electricity for its member that far surpass the service you get from the Big Commercial companies;-) I predict that Rural CoOPs and the FCC will be "open arms" to this technology, since cable companies and telephones companies refuse to spread out into the rural community.

Re:Stepdown Xformer not the major problem

[GnarlyNome]

Ok, Europe 220v 50Hz US 220v 60Hz. But, the power generated at the power plant runs in the neighorhood of 2000v and is steped up to 20Kv to 50Kv. So we only have one extra step down for us appliances. BTW since 60Hz is more efficent in Xformers it seem to me that as usual the problem will be political not engineering.

please fixed the links before posting....

[haplo21112]

Posters/Slashdot moderators....when posting a NYtimes link change the www to archive it avoids the whole registration thing...much easier and better for the users....

Thanks....

it's just a wire

[bigpat]

"I thought this was pretty much debunked a couple years ago?"

The article you reference talks about a particular scammer .... i mean entrepreneur... and his particular invention which would have brought endless bandwidth at light speed to power lines. The physics seemed a little screwy on that "invention", but this is just old fashioned sending a signal down a wire. So nothing new here in physics circles.

This has more to do with business and legal issues than new technology. Just happens that power companies already have big cables running to every home (right of way) and they are just trying to figure out an economical way to use them for telecom. Just as the cable companies did. Except the electrical distribution grid is not as easy to convert as the cable networks were.

does this help with last mile?

[goombah99]

Every home has a transformer in front of it. Assuming it will probably be too inductive to couple the high freq internet signal then you have a separate means of getting the signal all the way to the transformer. and as long as you've gone that far well why not just run an extra 40 feet the house itself?

on the otherhand I suppose that if one were to install special bridges (with packet switiches) across every transformer this might in principle be done over the power lines easier than laying new cables.

however this basically means there will be a ratio of bridges to houses that is greater than one.

Re:does this help with last mile?

[unitron]

"on the otherhand I suppose that if one were to install special bridges (with packet switiches) across every transformer..."

Or just use low current, high frequency transformers with one winding connected across the power transformer's primary and the other winding connected across the power transformer's secondary. Since this "jumper transformer" would be bi-directional with regard to the data flow I'm not sure you could really classify either one of it's windings as the primary or the secondary.

As a passive device it would probably be a lot cheaper than a special (or even ordinary) packet switching active device.

The power companies probably worry a lot more about their transformers being low impedence at 60 Hz than they do about making sure that they serve as very good low-pass/high-cut filters, that is, they want them to be excellent band-pass at 60 Hz devices without giving as much thought to the upper and lower cut-off frequencies, so it might be interesting to see just how high a frequency you could transmit with minimum attenuation from one winding to the other.

Re:does this help with last mile?

[Anonymous Coward]

still gotta have swiches otherwise its a giant hub with all connected to all

Re:does this help with last mile?

[unitron]

"still gotta have swiches otherwise its a giant hub with all connected to all"

But does there really have to be a switch at every transformer, or can they be located upstream at the transformer that feeds that (and other) transformer(s)?

routeing

[bballad]

Umm how would they send the right data to the right part of the grid? currently electricity just runs every where...would all of the data go to all locals on the grid? That would eat the bandwith very fast

Registration free link HERE

[Anonymous Coward]

http://archive.nytimes.com/2003/04/10/technology/1 0POWE.html

not new

[tommck]

There have been lots of technologies based on power line data transmission.

For instance, everyone's favorite generator of 'pop-under' ads and Home Phone Line Networking (HPNA) .

Definitely not a new idea, just a grander scale

T

Government controlled crap

[FuzzyDaddy]

Like that damn florinated water supply!

Debunked or not...

[Sazius]

At least in Turku, Finland it is in commercial use already... http://www.dsturku.net/ (in Finnish)

But what about....

[CSG_SurferDude]

But what about all my X-10 equipment in my house? Won't this mess up the signal that my light switches are using?

Note to moderators: This post is both Funny, AND informative. Despite X-10's annoying pop-ups, there are LOTS of people who use X-10 in the real world.

Re:But what about....

[Firehawke]

Actually, this is an important question.

What about all of those various power-line devices currently in use? There's also the possibility that power line networking could interest businesses in marketing NEW power-based technologies; thus I have to wonder how the networking will affect the line and further developments...

Not quite

[litewoheat]

Media Fusion was a scam, data over powerlines is now.

Dangers of checking for a link.

[jellomizer]

The old fassion way of checking for a link without those fancy LEDs is to stick your toung to the wire and see if there is link. With it over the power this could be hazorus. Oh well I guess it is a new way to impove the echonomy by getting rid of the people who would actually do that to chack for a link.

BS Meter is Pegged

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the old article. This Stewart is a scam artist second only to the cuecat guy. I mean, honestly, check out these quotes:

1. "I am a national treasure"

2. "What we are is a bunch of computer geeks that figured out how to use the electric grid as a motherboard."

3. "'[Engineers said] well, our photons are as fast as your electrons.' Yeah, until it hits the router. Ha! And then it just eats crap!"

4. "...electrons travel thousands of miles without any signal loss."

5. "Whenever you are solving a science problem, when you come in with a prejudice, then you lose the ability to think freely."

1. Just illustrates Stewart's character.
2. Throwing out technical jargon at random. The statement makes no sense to someone who understands the terms.
3. What does routing have to do with the particle conveying the signal? Does the OSI have a sub-atomic particle layer?
4. So completely false I don't even know where to begin. I guess we could start by stating that individual electrons don't "carry" a "signal," and also point out that the individual electrons don't actually travel from source to destination.
5. Yes, the "lone scientist being repressed by the scientific community at large."

Sounds like another coke-head salesman with a massive ego to me. Refer to previous /. postings about spotting junk science claims. This one has a bunch of red flags.

And keep an eye out for this guy, he will probably re-appear at the forefront of some other junk-science revelation, with toilet-paper stock to sell.

It can work, just not that way

[Phreakiture]

The introduction of intelligence onto a power line is not a new idea. Witness the "wireless" intercoms that have been available since the 70's that work by inserting a radio wave into the power cord. Witness also "carrier current" radio stations found on college campuses that work by putting a signal (usually AM) into the campus power grid.

Similarly, the introduction of a power supply in a wire intended to carry intelligence is not a new idea. Witness the use of the coaxial cable of a satellite receive system to feed power to the low-noise block frequency converter (LNBF) on the dish, or, for that matter, a much simpler device like .... the telephone!

What media fusion were proposing is to use the magnetic field of the AC separately from its electrical field. That is bunk, pure and simple.

The real trick, in any actual system, is to use a frequency that is not found in the normal use of the medium. In the U.S., the grid is 60Hz, it is 50Hz in most of the rest of the world. These two frequencies are far too low to carry much intelligence anyway, so you pick a frequency well above them and hope for the best.

This leaves three problems:

• The transformers that are scattered around the grid tend not to pass anything outside of the 50/60 Hz passband.
• Lower frequencies (e.g. 455kHz as used on the wireless intercoms) have limited bandwidth (you need a frequency that is at least your highest intended frequency of transmission. For digital data, this would be the nyquist frequency, e.g. for 9600 bits/sec, it would be 4800Hz. There are exceptions, but they are beyond the scope of this commentary--remember, it has to be cheap!).
• Higher frequencies tend to radiate out of the wires, making them a huge transmitting antenna, and causing interference to legitimate radio users. This doesn't happen with ethernet, telephone (running DSL) or CATV lines, due to the design of the cables used.

Rural Communities

[jimboid]

If they could make this work reliably it would be an excellent option for rural/remote areas who only have dial-up as an option. Even at that, their phone line quality is so poor that getting a connection can be difficult.

Satellite is an option for some but that typically involves satellite inbound traffic and dialup outbound traffic.

So, rather than positioning this as a product to compete against cable or dsl position it as a solution for areas where the electrical infrastructure exists but aren't yet reached by dsl or cable.

I think you'd have an interesting business plan. And take advantage of any government programs - the Canadian government, for example, will provide seed funding to organizations wishing to bring high speed internet access to rural or under-serviced areas.

Remember, Post-It-Notes (tm) are the result of a failed adhesive.

Re:Rural Communities

[Mr. No Skills]

This may not have any real impact on rural communities. From the advocacy group for Power Line Communications:

Several options, with different costs, can provide broadband Internet service to each base station. The simplest solution is connecting leased lines to each substation. This solution is potentially quite costly because of the number of lines involved. A wireless system has also been suggested to connect base stations to the Internet. This option reduces local loop fees, but increases hardware costs. Another alternative involves running high bandwidth lines, along side electric lines, to substations. These lines could be fiber, ATM, or broadband coaxial cable. This option avoids local loop fees, but is beset by equipment fees. The actual deployment of Digital PowerLine will probably involve a mix of these alternatives, optimized for cost efficiency in different areas and with different service providers.

This seems to imply that the PLC solutions are more of the "last mile" variety, in that the technology is for getting from the local substation to the home. There is still the WAN issue of getting from the substation to the ISP, and it seems to be based on existing ground line technologies. So, for someone in a rural area that no ISP or common carrier feels like running DSL or cable to, the same economic factors may apply.

If anyone has links that explain some of the details on the length limitations of the technology or the economics compared to other technologies, please post. It seems this might be a competitive technology to DSL and cable, and a nice alternative for when the phone cable from your house to the phone company is full (I have 4 pair). It doesn't seem to really address remote areas when homes are unclustered or a radical alternative for areas with DSL and cable already deployed.

A link

[Freddy_K]

Here's a link to the "Power Line Communications Association":

http://www.plca.net/

In your own house at least

[PhunkyOne]

There is already networking over powerlines for inside your own house. I am not sure how this may or may not relate to delivery of internet service to one's home but this at least seems cool because a power outlet it the most prevalent outlet in most houses. I am not sure how well it works but I have been tempted to try it. Here is the link for the USB adapter and the Ethernet Bridge. Has anyone had any Real World experience with these?

Re:In your own house at least

[Anonymous Coward]

I used a similar device a couple years ago called a "Passport" made by Intelogis. I think the company went under or changed names or something. It was on a parallel port and had transmission rates of at least 300kbs I think. It was easy to set up and worked ok with 56k.

Problem was that it required that the PC with the internet connection be run as a server. Their software bogged down the AMD K6 I was using at the time horribly. I switched to Ethernet soon after getting a Cable ISP.

Related Cnet News Story

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a link to a related story that appeared
today on Cnet. Looks promising.

http://news.com.com/2100-1034-996244.html?tag=lh

Metric System

[Anonymous Coward]

Idiot! I live an work in the USA. Everything is
metric until we come to displayed information for
the average Joe moron who knows only the USA
system. The USA has gone metric years ago in many
areas of technology. Because the congress sucks up to the moron majority the system was never applied
fully.

Look at the standard J1939 specs for fun.
One amusing part was when I was interfacing
with a mercedez engine I found out that the
fuel economy messages were only available in
USA system thru J1587. Mercedez is European
for those who don't know.

not really

[Trepidity]

A lot of people in Canada and the UK still use imperial units for many things. You've got pints of beer nearly everywhere, for example, and many people in Canada will use Fahrenheit temperatures. The only reason metric is as popular as it is is heavy-handed government mandates; you're not allowed to use Imperial units for many things even if you wanted to, which is bullshit.

Re:not really

[Iguanaphobic]

A lot of people in Canada and the UK still use imperial units for many things

I know. I learned both. Imperial units until Grade 5 and then metric. In another 30 years you won't find many left who care about Imperial.

Re:not really

[Omestes]

And how long have people been saying that?

I personally dig Imperial, it makes no sense, teaches people humility.

Re:not really

[Iguanaphobic]

Well, considering that Canada switched from the old to the new in 1976, about 27 years I guess.

Humility is good. Baking $350 million dollar spacecraft into the Martian desert is not.

Re:not really

[Anonymous Coward]

Case and point. I'm sure those engineers felt DAMN humble.

I'd rather...

[Guppy06]

I'd rather get my internet connection from the local power company than through either BellSouth or Cox.

depends on the field

[Trepidity]

A lot of engineering still uses units like lb-ft for torque, for example. Imperial units are pretty common in architecture and construction as well.

Ahhh,

[Anonymous Coward]

now you don't have to plug in the wireles phone. you can trickle chage the batteries over the phone line.

We've all got OC192's to our personal Clusters...

[Inhibit]

here in the states, What with everyone being amazingly wealthy. No need for a measily 2000kb/s here when I'm getting a blazing 1200kb/s.. oh.. wait..

The real question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

how fast can I download pron?

What about X10

[sonofagunn]

I want to know if my X10 devices will interfere with this or be interfered by this? Does anyone know?

Why hasn't this been used for home networking?

[Bigboote66]

Although the idea may or may not be ultimately feasible for wide-scale use due to the presence of transformers, why hasn't the home/small office networking domain used household power lines for network cable? Given burgeoning popularity of wireless networks, couldn't a household powerline network acheive similar goals?

-BbT

You are a moron

[Anonymous Coward]

Using wires to transmit and using a magnetic field to transmit have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Maybe you shouldn't post about things you don't understand.

Debunked

[Webmoth]

Remember, gigabit-over-copper was onced debunked. Before that, it was 100Mb-over-copper that was debunked.

Never understimate the creativity of a sufficiently-funded engineer.

HiFi

[Dr. Cody]

This is just a bastard child of the tubes v. transistors arguement. Pal, if you can hear 100MHz interference in your Pink Floyd, PT Barnum has a job for you.

Power companies != good broadband operators

[llamafresh]

The only thing I find missing in this discussion is that the FCC and local power companies have enough problems taming the unintentional radiation from their equipment, without introducing intentional broadband radiation! Remember that those miles and miles of power lines make reeeally good antennas! The thought of possibly wiping out military, amateur, and fixed service HF allocations trying to run broadband over a broken power grid should make everyone think several times about "whether-we-really-should-be-doing-this."

Just for the record, our local mono^H^H^H^Hutility has let problems go for years before finally finding and addressing them: Link Here to Cinergy/WLW story

At least this time the problem was resolved. Multiply this by hundreds of power companies and you should see we *might* have a problem...

llamafresh

Security Problem

[IA64]

I'm not very familiar with how your computer hooks up to an power line based Internet connection, but I would imagine that eventually this would be incorperated with the powersupply. If this were to happen, I would consider this a security risk. I have plenty of clients that have LANs that are not connected to the Internet because of security and virus issues. Well what happens when I want to plug my new server into the wall and now it's automatically online? I would say this would be a problem.

WiFi

[Ioldanach]

Rural areas are perfect for WiFi...

I lived in Illinois once, for a couple years, and WiFi would be great in the part of the state I was in. Few trees to speak of, and the land was so flat the overpass was called a "hill". Try visiting upstate NY sometime, where most of the rural dwellers can't see their neighbors because a big hill's in the way. Likewise for most of the rest of the east coast, and the west coast too. WiFi is great on a large scale if you're in a city, or a rural area with wide open flat spaces. Where people are spread out and mountains interfere, WiFi's useless.

Re:WiFi

[Anonymous Coward]

Or rural AZ or Colorado... Cell phones are useless here. To many 'hills', meaning Granite spires.

Debunked?

[autopr0n]

Uh, one particular harebrained idea of using magnetic fields rather then actually electrical signals was debunked, not the idea of power-line IP service.

It is for real

[grahamsz]

One of my dad's collegues lives in Crieff and does indeed have this service and it is apparently every bit as fast as it claims to be.

I believe it's subsidised at the moment to make the approx USD 50 / month price tag - but that should come down with wider adoption.

I believe however that scottish hydro are in a reasonably good position since they already have a fast fibre optic network and are indeed only using this for the last mile.

As i've heard it, (makes sense but could be false) they started putting optic fibre down the middle of their overhead cables to carry diagnostic information to and from unmanned locations. Given the cost of copper cable, adding a fibre to it cost virtually nothing. Over time we then learned how to squeeze more and more data down those fibres and magically they suddenly have a fast IP network.

BASIC Programming 101

[Old Wolf]

Yeah and what you gonna do when you need to add a line between 3 and 4 huh?

Being considered in australia too

[msmithstubbs]

Thes Australian Broadband news site Whirlpool
has an article regarding an Isreali company being involved.

The article notes the problem of strong transformers in use in Australia (similar to the US maybe? We are on 240V/230V however...) but the guy interviewed didn't seem to have any idea if it would be a problem.

UPS Uses It Now in the US!

[tlambert]

UPS Uses It Now in the US!

Hasn't anyone seen their new commercial, where they talk about package tracking data flowing "over these lines", and the picture in the background is high tension power lines, because the marketing department couldn't find stock film footage of a fly-by of an underground fiber optic cable?

8-) 8-) 8-).

-- Terry

Successful trial in Germany

[nic1m]

Summarized from an article in the German magazine Der Spiegel, 07/04/2003 p. 188:
The utility company MVV Energie AG along with a company called Power Plus Communications AG have been offering power line internet access to their customers in Mannheim, Germany. They claim it is up to 15 times faster than ISDN. Only 3600 customers have been signed up so far, but they claim to be expanding to 5 new cities this year. The technology they're using is by an Israeli company called Mainnet. It uses spread spectrum transmission to overcome interference from appliances on the line. The system seems to work well, but it is interfereing with radio signals. They're having difficulty meeting German and European limits on interference.
The original article is available in German here.

We already have this in Finland

[rsmeds]

Here in Turku, Finland, we've already had internet access over the powergrid for a while. The local power company Turku Energia offers their 'Datasähkö' service at an effective bandwidth of about 0.5 to 1.0 Mbit/s.

Power Grid

[harriet nyborg]

lighten up.

i never said all americans think with the same mind. that's your imagination.

THIS particular guy assumes "transformers" are only used in the north american power grid.

i thought, "what, does this guy think people don't use alternating current outside the US?"

why would anyone - who knows enough to comment on transmitting digital signals down a wire - assume this?

from my perspective, it was a moronic comment.

and if you read my post, you would not have noticed that i did not use any adjectives such as "stupid" and "ugly." that's your inferority complex.

my comments were primarily technical in nature and undeserving of your ad hominem abuse.

except for the crack about starbucks.

but a girl's gotta have some fun.

Not a bad idea

[mnmn]

High-freqency vibrations travel quite well in water at high speed, I wonder how much data can be modulated into it. But someone flushes the toilet and you lose a frag in counterstrke!

I remember at the metal pipes in my house, one twang at the basement travelled all over the place, but thats waves in the metal. Waves in the water should travel faster. In winters when the water freezes, we'd get faster internet.

Makes me wonder how to connect the PDA...

But What About OTHER Utilities?

[tmjva]

I'm surprised water and sewage utilities haven't tried using the VLF/ULF band through its pipes! (Like the Navy does at sea. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.)

PLC Networking

[Kit Cosper]

I'm a little late to the dance, so to speak, mainly because I was giving a presentation earlier this week about PLC networking at a conference. :-) I'm working with a PLC networking company, we're "inside the transformer" (building distribution) as opposed to on the pole. It's here, it's real, and it works. There are a few variations out there right now, mostly running at "old" ethernet speeds (14 Mbps theoretical, 5-8 Mbps measured, real-world rates) Chipsets are available that will allow speeds of ~50Mbps and under development that will deliver >200Mbps. We've got test deployments running in a hotel as well as an apartment complex, with 2 more hotel sites coming on line.

--Kit

Last Post!

[alpg]

The energy produced by the breaking down of the atom is a very poor kind
of thing. Anyone who expects a source of power from the transformation
of these atoms is talking moonshine.
-- Ernest Rutherford, after he had split the atom for
the first time

- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...