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E.U. Commission: More Antitrust Trouble For MS
Tidal Flame writes "According to Wired news, Microsoft appears to be in hot water over antitrust issues again. The European Commission says it will require Microsoft to 'share more proprietary information with its rivals' and 'uncouple' it's Media Player audiovisual software from the Windows operating system." iCoach points to this article at The Register covering the same.
they people who are doing this whats their history ?
It matters ALOT
any clues ?
regards
John Jones
Microsoft has had anti-trust trouble since, I think, 1997. With enough money in the bank to run the company without profits for decades, they will be able to hire whatever celebrity attourneys are necessary to win the case. This is run-of-the-mill Microsoft business.
In the long run, we're all dead.
You're right, I did lose a million dollars last year. I expect to lose a million dollars this year. I expect to lose a million dollars *next* year. You know, Mr. Thatcher, at the rate of a million dollars a year, I'll have to close this place in... 60 years.
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
They've had to "uncouple" IE. Now they're being asked to uncouple Media Player.
What's next? Uncoupling the calculator? The start button? Command prompt?
Following this line of thinking ad absurdum, what exactly is Microsoft allowed to package with Windows? Sheesh!
In the Portland, Ore area and like card games? Check out: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/portlandgames/
(comic book guy voice) Most impossible to understand comment, ever (/voice)
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
It's like telling a thief to "steal less". As long as Microsoft does non-free software (as opposed to GPL or BSD-style), rulings like this will only help legitimize them rather than raise concerns of their ongoing practices.
I don't understand the deal with windows media player. You can use different software to play media files (the Playa, WinAMP, etc.), so what's the big deal? Most OEM PCs come with different jukebox software installed, so media player isn't mandated. This sounds like a pretty dumb thing, I would say most consumers like having a media player built in, who cares if its an MS player or not?
I was greeted with a microsoft screen-covering advertisement when I clicked to the article.
Next, on Jerry Springer: :)
"Windows is a Kernel. Deal with it."
When microsoft share['s] more proprietary information with its rivals. Is THAT the day that pigs fly?
Got Extra Money?
and who thinks they won't find some way to try to stick people with media player anyway?
Why can't they just have a checkbox when you install Windoughs for if you don't want these things (such as IE or WMP)? Linux Distrubutions usally don't make you install a certain browser (depends on the distro). If they do this, they probably will make you enter the product key 6 more times per product checked to not be installed;-).
I agree with this. The bundling is (clearly?) not the problem. The GNU/Linux distros bundles browsers, media players, calculators and that's fine, that's a good thing.
In fact I have a hard time considering an operating system that doesn't ship with a compiler.
Of course Microsoft will do everything in its power to find a loop hole or get the decision overturned.
I wonder if MS was hoping that nobody would notice they did the same thing with Media Player that they did is MSIE.
I could see a conversation between a consumer and MS now:
Consumer: "Hey! You guys are shoving Media Player down my throat."
MS: "Media player? What Media Player?"
Consumer:"Oh, come on! You didn't actually think nobody would notice did you?"
*MS waves hand in front of consumers face*
MS:"There is no Media Player."
Consumer:"There is no media player."
MS:"You don't want any plugins."
Consumer:"I don't want any plugins."
MS:"Move along."
Consumer:"Move alone. Move along."
The flying hamster of DOOM rains coconuts on your pitiful city.
The calculator and command prompt can be uninstalled. The Start button itself is not an application, so I won't comment on that. But Explorer, which provides the start button and desktop can be replaced. IE and the Media Player, however, can not be uninstalled. What's next is anything that is integrated which can not be uninstalled yet has competition.
Developers: We can use your help.
then, when I clicked back to the page after my posting, the ad link was broken, giving me a 404 error.
What's next? Uncoupling the calculator? The start button? Command prompt?
Oddly enough, those three are prime candidates for replacement. It's easy enough to replace the windows calc, there are still tons of explorer (start menu/taskbar) replacements, and as for the command prompt--IIRC, some of the more popular UNIX shells have been ported to Windows, either by themselves or with CYGWIN.
But despite all this--I can't replace IEHTML with Gecko.
And there was much rejoicing.
(Weak Cheers)Yay. Hooray. Whoopie. Yahoo. Joy.
With all respects to the Monty Python Crew ^-^
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
Even french fries and perfume?
They should have to uncouple Media player.
I paid for the windows OS!
Why do I have to pay extra for more applications because MS has started a branch company and they have to carry them to survive.
why, why, why do we care about this??
:-)
i thought this was a linux website, not a 'against windows' website.
you have a user id in the 400k's. you're just now realizing this?
by the way, they have computers you can carry around now -- they don't use vacuum tubes or take up huge rooms in a basement somewhere
Since when can a government entity tell you what to or not to include in your software? It's like the government telling automakers they're required to have cup holders suited for 64 oz cups in all vehicles, or saying the interior has to be a certain color. If you don't want WMP, don't use windows :)
Who cares if they can't be uninstalled? It is trivial to install a preferred player or browser and make it the default. With the size of hard drives today, the 10 to 100 MB that IE and Media Player occupy is trivial as well.
Please make Microsoft explain why they bought key OpenGL patents during 2002 just to jump off the OpenGL group the year after.
Please, force them to keep those patents open to the community for at least fifteen more years, or something like that.
We make a lot of fun of Gates, but hmm, could you imagine ... 'puttin' on the ritz, baby'
Having a monopoly isn't inherently evil, it's just how the power is used people. Having media player isn't bad, but making it so quicktime and realplayer don't work correct is. There are benevolent dictators, then there's all your money belongs to me dictators.
Fries
Toast
Kissing
Horns
Ticklers
Doors
Polishing
Y'all should go hang with loony old Bob Ney.
T&K.
Political language
Just a brainstorm solution for *all bundling* of software: Why not let MS bundle any software it likes, but under one condition: It has to adher to open standards. If it wants to distribute WMP, let it do so, but only the codecs that play open and well-defined media formats. So it has the choice to remove WMx-files or to document them fully. The same line of reasoning could be followed for future inappropriateness. dizzl
If you don't want Windows Media Player, which is a standard feature/component of XP, then don't use Windows :)
perfume...excellent point. Rather than regular bathing to actually correct the problem of body odor why not just invent something to continually cover it up. More and more perfume, no need to fix the original problem.
This seems to be the French attitude to most things.
Go EU!
---
Information wants...you to shut your pie hole.
Even french fries and perfume?
My doctor disapproves of greasy fried foods, and I am allergic to many kinds of perfume.
Hey, having a media player come with windows server is the kind of value added benefit that Microsoft talks about when comparing Windows server to other operating systems. Now if only my racks came equipped with speakers in them, I'd be set. Maybe some zero-U solution can be found out there for me. The idea of watching streaming media while doing sys admin tasks is something that you just can't beat...
perhaps not, but this'll sure as hell get them around the DMCA for developing that stuff in Europe.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
I'm sorry, but this is idiotic. I've had about enough of this 'coupling' shit.
This is how it works:
Media Player and IE are both FULLY REUSABLE ActiveX components that come with windows. Any windows developer can 100% rely on the fact that they will be installed on a windows machine (Well, not 100% with media player, but with IE, 100%). This means you can add simple media playback and web functionality to a program without having to purchase external tools or spend hours integrating some external solution!
I don't WANT components I rely on to be uninstalled. All Windows Media Player and Internet Explorer really ARE is glorified activex component hosts. The real work is done by DirectShow and the Microsoft HTML library.
I can see how this is bad for competition, but we're going after the wrong target here - IE and Media Player aren't the problem; the way they're being used is.
using namespace slashdot;
troll::post();
The EU commission unlike its American counterparts is made up of a diverse mixture of cultures and backgrounds.
Playing to the commission and its composition authority will be orders of magnitude more difficult than doing it in the US, especially the French and Germans.
Not to say its not possible, just a lot more difficult.
Independence? That's middle-class blasphemy. We are all dependent on one another, every soul of us on earth. G.B Shaw
Ah, you mean freedom fries don't you?
How about this thing?
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
I think MS should be allowed to package any additional software it wants with windows as long as it is removable. MS does this to some extent already (some stuff can be chosen during install), but they could do a fair amount more.
I think the stability and security of Windows could also be greatly enhanced from the ability to remove parts from windows. Sick of IE vulnerabilities, uninstall it. I use a fair amount of additional software that is installed with windows (movie maker, media player, IE, etc.), but I wouldn't object is someone else wanted to remove those components from their system.
The flip side of the coin is the handiness of having things integrated. I like having the OS be feature rich out of the box. I don't like having to download additional software to perform basic tasks. I'm sure there are better calculators out there, but the one bundled with windows is ok for what I need it to do.
Yes. The window manager and GDI and DirectX all need to be removed too. Oh and the scheduler, and ODBC subsystem. And the filesystem - why should I be forced by evil businessmen to choose between FAT32 and NTFS?
MSFT has been dragged into court for legitimate reasons before. This reeks more of anti-american zealotry than a legitimate case.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
How about independence, nimrod? Remember the American Revolution? And remember the Lousiana Purchase? Who the fuck do you think we purchased it from? If you want to point out that "the french didn't give us that", let me stop you there and point out that Microsoft probably didn't give you Impossible Creatures or Asheron's Call for free either.
I'm a lawyer, but not yours. I wouldn't represent someone who thinks taking legal advice from Slashdot is a good idea.
This is my first post on Slashdot [Yay!], but I have to use it to do something that most people probably won't like, defend Microsoft. Yes, I loathe the general instability of their products and the outrageous prices, but Microsoft is a company. A company in a capatilist system. Why do we punish them for doing their job? People say they need to cripple a successful company in order to let lesser ones compete, but what companies are they helping? What OS is there that the general public [People on the AOL level of understanding] will want? I know Linux is great, but it is not something for the general public in its current flavor. Most end users won't understand what compile even means. My point in general, I guess, is that Microsoft does have a product for the general public, yet everyone sees having a good foothold on a market as a tyrannical thing. If people don't want to use Windows' Media Player, they don't have to. I use WinAmp, and it works perfectly. I don't worry one bit about WMP, I see no reason that Microsoft should be forced to rip away the Media Player for one, which would most likely lead to many more holes in the code which could cause even more errors when visiting web pages with any kind of audio or movies or even inserting a CD
- Phocks
Almost? Shit man, MS gaves us Impossible Creatures and Asheron's Call. What the fuck did the french ever give us?
Diablo, Warcraft, Half-Life, and Tribes.
You DID know Vivendi was a French company, right?
What the fuck did the french ever give us?
A victory in the American Revolution ?
What would Lemmy do?
I agree with you that "disable" this, break out that, are not the proper way to address the monopoly issue. The truth is that these approaches do nothing to redress the playing field. I for one would much rather see the EU state that OEMs and resellers must sell hardware without any preinstalled or bundled operating system. This would break Microsoft's grip on the OEM market which is the real remedy that is required. At that point, Joe Sixpack can choose the OS of their liking (for a price) and either have the onsite tech install it or install it themselves. If Microsoft truly has the best product, they would have nothing to fear with this arrangement.
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
That's not the point. The point is that it's extremely difficult to get Windows to always use what you tell it to use. Besides, I personally would rather occupy that 10MB of space with 3 average-sized mp3s. It may seem trivial to you, but there are still people struggling to keep their drives from becoming full. I have two 10GB drives at home and the Windows one stores almost all of my mp3s and videos (Legal copies of mp3s and the videos include a few songs or comedy acts). I would really appreciate it if Microsoft would let me uninstall their crap-ass software and let me use what I want to use when I must use Windows.
I really hope they do uncouple WMP, after I installed it to play some videos, my WinAMP quit workings. Coincidence? I think not...
If what you are reading sounds funny, or sarcastic, lame, or stupid
it is because it is supposed to be. just laugh
It was the initial bundling which causes the problem. The fact that they came as the defaults and at first could not be changed from being the defaults that get them in trouble. At the time of the abuse of monopoly, you could not change the default web browser or media player. Today it's trivial, earlier it wasn't.
Developers: We can use your help.
No, not Media Player, but that Real crap. I wish they'd just go tits up (nod to the reg). If Microsoft reigns for a thousand years and slaughters helpless companies left and right, it'll be a small price to pay if it rids the earth of the real player. Oh forgive me, the realone player.
The French have given victories to a lot of people - see the post above.
and 'uncouple' it's Media Player audiovisual software from the Windows operating system
I wonder if some of the new 'proprietary information' will include some of the WMP technology so that Winamp et. all can play the files properly. At the moment nullsoft is required to not do anything to WMP files but play them - no visualisation etc.
I enjoy having media player come with windows, but it does give Microsoft even more power in the industry. The long term cost to consumers from this market power could be greater than the short-term cost of further separating Media Player. Secondly, Microsoft does need provide more information to third party software developers. According to this article at ZDNet http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t297-s2121402,00. html "Microsoft used undocumented application programming interfaces (APIs) to make the company's software work better with Windows than competitor's" products. This is an example of the anti-competitive behavior Microsoft exhibits.
Again, it's because there's basically no commercial competition to the window manager, GDI, DirectX, scheduler, ODBC subsystem, and file systems. There was competition for web browsers and media players. It was the way they handled those particlar applications (and others) that got them in trouble. Blending other software into the OS monopoly in order to undercut competition is the abuse of monopoly.
Developers: We can use your help.
Tell them to have the U.N. write a resolution against you. That way everybody wins: they get to look busy, and you don't ever have to comply!
"Lord, grant that I may always be right, for Thou knowest that I am hard to turn" -- A Scots-Irish prayer
2003-03-11 15:43:20 EU experts believe Microsoft in violation (articles,microsoft) (rejected)
*sigh*
"If you are on fire you can just stop, drop, and roll. If you fall into Lava you are just dead." - my 5yr old daughter
No, Joe User wants a turnkey solution, he doesnt want to deal with installing an OS. And if he did, he'd chose the easiest to install. This would be Windows.
So then there'd be a lawsuit that states "make your installer a pain in the ass and rename your driver files to stuff like tulip.o so noone knows what the hell is going on."
Now, selling OEM hardware preinstalled with a Linux distro that works well and does everything Joe User wants it to, without having to learn any new skills or become a l337 h4xor would be the solution.
Because Joe User isnt fixing what isnt broken. He'll use Linux all day and night so long as it works. How many people still run Windows 95 or 98 because thats what came on the machine when they bought it?
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
first, im not going to make any cheesy remarks like "well, i really hate microsoft too but lets look at their side for a minute". although, in saying that, i in essence already have.
ok why is it ok to tell a company who doesnt force you to use its software (yeah, the average joe can go out and buy a barebones system and install linux... if they dont want to do that, its on them.) what they are allowed to put into software that they (yeah, mostly - lets put aside the bs about how they stole such-and-such code) wrote.
whats the matter? as soon as they start making too much money someone else has a problem? if they're such a problem dont encourage the public to buy it and (if your an oem) have a little diversity... dispite the fact that most linux users hate redhat, it IS pretty decent for the average joe... no one forces you to buy from an oem that uses microsoft and if it hurts your business to exclude microsoft - dont hate them, the player - hate the game. after all, its your elected government that referee's it.
i really wish companies would stop bitching for once and just move on. if you dont like windows media player - write a fucking better one. if you cant, look on the internet - for surely someone already has... for god sakes - really, if you dont like the fact that microsoft puts uninstallable stuff into a program that YOU choose to use, DONT USE IT... i mean,, what the fuck would happen if microsoft took away the add/remove wizard? would everyone bitch because they couldnt offically add or remove software?
fuck that, this rants done.. im gettnig more angry just writing it.
I agree. I never have quite seen what the problem is here. Windows also comes with a "word processor", and art package. Okay, wordpad and paint may be a pretty crappy at those jobs, but Corel and Adobe don't seem to get their knickers in a twist about those. They simply release a vastly better product. If a larger company can provide better software for free, then you lose out. This would still apply if MS didn't have a monopoly, but was simply bigger.
MS have done a lot worse than give away a free browser. They should be concentrating on that instead.
How about this: your OS is an OS, not an app. Your OS is a service provider between hardware and apps. Apps do things like play media files, browse the web, etc.
There you go. Keep your OS an OS. Everything else is unneeded, undesired, and merely designed to widen monopoly to include the means of info distribution, what info is distributed, and who gets to access info.
Sorry, this isn't a place for M$ (or any company) to control.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
I'm sorry, but quicktime sucks ass... You can't go full screen, files don't play automatically when you double-click open them, the quality is shit, the list goes on and on. With realplayer, your viewing window is surrounded in crap, and it is generally annoying. I love when MS integrates software like this because it has no additional cost and doesn't shower me with ads.
Everytime microsoft integrates something to the os (and it is pretty decent), I don't have to cough up dough for a third-party product. I'm not going to pay $30 for quicktime pro when I get a superior media player for free.
I think open-source will provide constant, unbeatable competition to MS, and the end result won't be the downfall of MS, but a very dramatic increase in the quality of their operating system.
OS will be like a pace partner in running, they won't ever beat you, but they will make damn sure you are running hard the entire time.
You are correct on the sack point--and you do give excellent sack ;)
If I had mod points they would belong to your post.
what are you talking about? Surrender? We bought the Louisiana "Purchase" from Napoleon because he needed the money to fund his European wars.
Napoleon would have eventually lost it in the eventual surrender to the british, but they did not surrender the Louisiana Purchase to America.
I/O, I/O, its off to disk I go, with a read and a write, and a bit and a byte, I/O, I/O, I/O, I/O
Why would you want that?
/., what the f?
Oh, so you can write shit assed web pages that won't EVER display on anything other than the latest WinWhatever? (Probably also all 500+k pages just ripe full of adds and bs media crap that serves no purpose other than to trap and stun your end user)
Does nobody else around here see what he's suggesting? My god, this is
Modded as +5 interesting no less...cold day in hell it is I guess...
No Comment.
Did you do the simple click-through install and NOT tell it to NOT bind MP3, etc. files to itself?
All I want is a kind word, a warm bed and unlimited power.
So now, instead of telling MS how to run their business, they'd be telling hardware sellers how to run THEIR businesses? That doesn't seem any better for me. If a hardware seller decides not to sell any non-MS OS's with their system, that's their business. If there's really something better for a particular market, that company will lose business and be forced to adapt. But time after time has shown that *nix based PC's just don't work in the marketplace. Hell, VA Software (owner of Slashdot) even couldn't make it work. Forcing companies to sell something they wouldn't normally sell is not how capitalism works, and it doesn't benefit anybody, except competitors that normally couldn't compete in the marketplace.
I have a store. A real "brick & mortar" store. There are plenty of things that I choose not to sell because they don't fit my business. If someone said that I *had* to sell a particular product, I'd tell them to take a flying leap.
Windows is a product of Microsoft. IE is a product of Microsoft. Media Player is a product of Microsoft. Microsoft sells Windows. Consumers buy Windows. Microsoft can do whatever they want to Windows as long as the customer buys it. Nobody is screaming ANTITRUST to McDonalds for 'incorporating' McDonalds fries into their McValue Meals. If Microsoft can learn to cook a cheeseburger, they can incorporate a Microsoft cheeseburger into Windows if they wish, IT'S THEIR PRODUCT! And if that cheesburger becomes the most popular cheeseburger on the market, THEY DONT HAVE TO SELL THE RECIPE TO MCDONALDS! Nobody is making McDonalds release information on their proprietary fries so Burger King can use them in their value meal. BK makes their own fries. You don't have to goto McDonalds to get a value meal, but you can't goto Burger King to get McDonalds fries. You don't have to use Windows as an operating system, but you can't run Media Player without it. Open your eyes and use an open *nix system with open media formats.
If at first you don't succeed... How does that go again? Ah, forget it.
Raise the flag! The French have deserted us! No more decadent
European food! Be a patriot and support a true American home product!
Only the biggest American couch potatoes will become Idiot Fries(TM).
Fried in the finest propaganda oil made by CNN and FOX, Idiot
Fries(TM) come in three flavors:
- NRA ("Shoot your neighbor, it's called freedom!")
- KKK ("Color blind is not my problem!")
- WASP ("Superiority to the white trash!")
Idiot Fries(TM) are guaranteed to be free of UNO, ICJ, EC, AI, and
other non-patriotic substances.
"Only a true idiot will die for his country!" - George W. Bush
Really, I'm not out to destroy Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect. -- Linus Torvalds
The tricky part is that M$ is a monopoly. With 90-95% market share in Operating Systems, bundling browser with their operating system gives them 90-95% market share in browsers. Same goes for Media Player. This is considered as an unfair advantage.
getSexySig();
Yes, there are alternate window managers, alternate graphics libraries, alternate database subsystems, and alternate filesystems.
None of them are an improvement over what comes out of the Windows XP box, though, so they really arent that commercially viable.
All business models based around suing microsoft will fail. It happened to Netscape, Real Player, Java, and so on.
How about this:
1) Create a superior media player
2) Sell it
3) Profit!
Freedom fries, dipshit.
EU will have meter, liters - metric system and Linux as OS.
US will have miles, galons - engilsh system and Windows as OS.
Because we think we are smarter than the rest of the world.
Its silly to remove IE and Windows Media Player. I prefer them to other competing products. Many windows media players are not freely distributed, nor work as well. I suppose you could claim that I am paying for them since I purchased Windows XP, but at least they provide free upgrades. Competing products such as Quicktime do not. I have used both activex components in programs. A modern OS should have a built in internet browser and media player. I don't want to search or pay for one on top of the price of the OS, I just want them to work, and they both do extremely well.
It depends if you count the stock options or not, for just one item. One review of the number,I saw had M$ lossing $4 Billion in 1999 alone, when stock options were included. Last I understood M$ had $24 Billion worth of stock options outstanding.
Let's say McDonalds has a monopoly on the fast food market. Should they be able to say "Fuck the customer, if they want a burger, they will buy our orange drink crap too"? US (an apparently EU) law says no. You aren't allowed to leverage your monopoly to beat your competition. To continue with the analogy, if I already have a drink that I like, I shouldn't need to use their proprietary orange drink crap with my burger.
I'm a lawyer, but not yours. I wouldn't represent someone who thinks taking legal advice from Slashdot is a good idea.
Without the French Navy disrupting British supply and ensuring ours we would have lost that war going away. The French sent the British packing at the Battle of the Virginia Capes, then blockaded Chesapeake Bay and transported American and French troops to Yorktown, forcing Cornwallis's surrender.
It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man
-James Baldwin
@_@ media player has been bundled with windows since at least v3.1 @__@ why make a fuss now?
I don't WANT components I rely on to be uninstalled.
So do what nearly every other product for nearly every platform does: have a list of system requirements. Install them if they're not available.
This is no different than installing MFC or VB runtime DLL's! Yes, it's nice if they're already installed, but you're allowed to ship them with your product.
Why should IE, MP, or any other windows component be treated differently?
What if you wrote an app that needed IPX? Bitch that it's an uninstallable component? Or ask that the user install it?
As a user in the 1k's, I think I've seen enough /. stories to comment. People are only vehemently against Windows around here because most of them use it and so are upset about being weak and hyprocritical ;)
The truth is that these approaches do nothing to redress the playing field. I for one would much rather see the EU state that OEMs and resellers must sell hardware without any preinstalled or bundled operating system.
It would also need something along the lines of the only discounts they can offer being volume discounts. Not exclusivity discounts.
He's speaking as a developer. He can write an application that uses the 100% guaranteed to be there, IE HTML Rendering Engine, without having to write his own HTML Engine, or go out and try and integrate someone elses and deal with installation hassles.
It's funny that Microsoft gets a lot of shit for bundling software with Windows when just about every Linux distro you find at the local Best Buy comes with 10x more user applications... everything from web browsers to graphic editing tools to compilers to word processors... etc... etc...
So, why is it wrong for MS... but alright for Red Hat, Mandrake, etc?
--
"What do you want me to do? Whack a guy? Off a guy? Whack off a guy? Cause I'm married."
Rich
MS is only profitable in desktop OS and Office suites. In those two categories they have obscene/enviable profit margins (depends on your viewpoint). These are used to drive all of their other initiatives which are almost all universally losing money. (Some at quite a high rate including MSN and X-Box.)
The best thing that the DoJ and EU trials can do is make more of MS's partners warry of doing business with them. Things like License 6 are already annoying businesses and BSA audits are certainly bringing it tons of good will for Linux and alternative-OS choices.
No, MS isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I just look forward to the day where Chompaq or Dell start selling non-Windows consumer PC's.
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
Probably msn messenger.
This is a bad analogy... McDonalds doesn't put something in their burgers that makes Burger King's taste worse, does it? McDonalds gives you the option of buying just the burger, not the fries. Lastly, neither Burger King nor McDonalds has a monopoly on burger selling.
I just don't see how the analogy fits. Microsoft isn't offering a better or "value-added" product, as much as they are forcing their software down our throats, and adding "features" to Windows which make other software less functional and stable.
A better analogy (sticking with the burger theme) would be if McDonalds owns a mall food court, they force you to buy and eat their fries, even if you want the fries from the Burger King instead. (Oh, and they only offer salt, ketchup, etc for their own fries).
No, Joe User wants a turnkey solution, he doesnt want to deal with installing an OS.
In which case there would be 3 items, hardware, software and the service of installing the latter onto the former.
And if he did, he'd chose the easiest to install. This would be Windows.
Except that this isn't the case for all hardware. Especially once you move away from the home user market.
Think about it.
(and yes, the USA needs the world more than vice versa - that's a fact and please verify it before responding)
it's in my head
I use it because I am familiar with it, and so is the rest of the family, I taught them how to make cds from MP3's and how to rip them with it, I am not going to teach them again, it was painful enough the first time, and please don't make your bait so obvious when trolling...
If what you are reading sounds funny, or sarcastic, lame, or stupid
it is because it is supposed to be. just laugh
If all your customers are slaves to advertising and insist that business meetings are performed over lunch at McDonalds, you'll probably eat with them at McDonalds or you won't have a lot of money to eat anywhere else.
A) VA Linux ONLY sold rack mounts.
B) Capitalism is determined by competition in a free-market. The desktop PC OS market is governed by a monopoly which by it's very definition means it's no longer a free-market. Look it up.
C) Did you even read my post? Did I even *mention* forcing anybody to sell anything? No. It's about forcing somebody to *not* sell something in a bundle. There are plenty of rules like this already in place, ask your local telephone company for one example.
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
This is not a "linux" website, for crying out loud. This is news for nerds, stuff that matters.
The problem as I see it is that they work with non-free software (not only non-free from a copyright perspective, but hassled with patents as well). If they did free software the market share wouldn't be a problem since you could fork at any sign of misbehaviour (whether spyware or pricing).
So, why is it wrong for MS... but alright for Red Hat, Mandrake, etc?
Say it with me..
MO-NO-PO-LY
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
Nope, I did the customized one and told it to just bind .avi and .mpeg videos to itself...
If what you are reading sounds funny, or sarcastic, lame, or stupid
it is because it is supposed to be. just laugh
Imbecilic more like.
MS is a business that makes money for its stockholders and employees by selling software.
Are you suggesting they give their product away?
Here's at tip:-
Stay an employee (if you even have a job) don't even think about starting your own business.
GNU/Linux bundles these packages as.. yes.. packages, and they can be uninstalled. With Linux you also have a choice to roll your own without anything preinstalled. Things like Gentoo Linux come close, and Linuxfromscratch is the ultimate down this lane.
However with Windows, I get everything except the kitchen sink (because mozilla already has that) and can't uninstall most of it. It does allow me to delete calc.exe and erase its icon, but who cares about calculators? The really important bits that rake in the $$$ are hooked and bolted onto the OS and I haven't managed to erase them without seriously destabilizing the OS. Now if I can't do that, how will Joe Sixpack do it? Of course, Joe Sixpack doesn't care.. *sighs melodramatically*
Learn from the mistakes of others. There isn't enough time to make them all yourself.
A point i can think of is that if i sell a computer i have to sell THEIR browser, and not the OTHER browser. I could sell both of course, but for several reasons (confusion of users, more disk space needed, problem with the file associations) this could put ME in disadvantage. So the OTHER browser is practically off the market.
If you don't understand this then just tell me, whats the big deal with letting me uninstall explorer?
Washington bullets will simply be known as the "Bulle
Get a real government, dipshit.
Coll, so what if i want to use ANOTHER media player which is for windows ?
Washington bullets will simply be known as the "Bulle
well, get a clue american fucktard: nytimes.com, cnn.com, whatev.er
But what is the matter with you guys ? Nobody sais to remove them!! It's the OPTION to remove them that is important.
I wonder how did you get the impression that you can compare the filesystem and a scheduler with an application. ( Maybe because you have been told the they can both be "fundamental part of an OS"??? )
Washington bullets will simply be known as the "Bulle
And don't think for a minute that France had forgiven England for the Frenceh & Indian War (after which the French were forced to cede Canada to the British). Much to their surprise, I would imagine, they didn't get any of their territory back after the Revolutionary War.
Perhaps THAT'S why they are so bitter towards us Americans?
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
Actually no, it's because there are fundamental parts of the OS and "fundamental" parts of the OS.
Washington bullets will simply be known as the "Bulle
(comic book guy voice)
How does a comic book sound?
simply there are money to be made from selling this stuff (and MS actually DOES sell office) while there more money to be made from giving away the other stuff (that Ms actually forces on people).
Washington bullets will simply be known as the "Bulle
Right. I'm sure there might be technical differences (is Media Player as hard to uninstall as the shell or the file manager?) but honestly I don't think that integration and bundling is inherently bad. The problem is non-free software.
The technicalities might have become worse over the years. The last Windows I tinkered with extensively was Windows 95, where I managed to replace everything (and then though "why bother?" and switched to GNU/Linux).
i simply throw the fries away, and voila i have a burger with NO fries.
Washington bullets will simply be known as the "Bulle
Not like Vivendi was the actual talent behind these games; they're just a publisher. Could've easily been EA, God Games, or GT Interactive
The Statue of Liberty?
Why should one not use winamp?
It's a 100% working mp3-player with tons of good plugins and nice skins, it has never let me down and is an allround good program. Why should I use anything else?
(Oh, wait...I'm not using winamp anymore...it's all XMMS for me now ~_^ Ok, so apart from changing OS, why should I not use winamp?)
Rich
The truth is that these approaches do nothing to redress the playing field.
I say the way to level the playing field is to get people to buy non-MS products. How? Place a limit on the number of copies of Windows/Office MS can sell in a year. If only 60% of the population can buy Windows/Office the other 35% will be forced to buy the alternative. Then the only way to make both customers happy is to make all the software play together.
MS has only dominated desktop computing for like 7-8 years now. 10 years from now they could be reduced to bit player. Its hard to see anything beyond the present if you don't look at history. This is especially true for young people who don't know a world without MS and also haven't studied history. Once IBM was the only game in town and also there was a time when Novell was everywhere. Hell look what happened to Xerox. MS doesn't own the server market and they also don't own the mobile phone market. 5 years from now some startup could launch some weird holographic computer device thingy that completely replaces the need for Windows desktops, cellphones and PDA's.
The point is neither you nor anyone else knows what the future has in store. One thing is for sure though, it's simply foolish to think MS will dominate computing forever. History shows that's not likely and realistically simply isn't possible.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
One of the problems is that Joe User's idea of what constituded extra hassle has been slowly manipulated by Microsoft.
It used to be that if you wanted to run a word processor under DOS, you had to go out and buy WordPerfect, TenBest, or some other application. Games were sold separately too. You could get shareware terminal programs from freinds, and then order the full version.
People didn't complain about it at the time. They would only complain about it now because Microsoft included QBasic with DOS, Minesweeper, Solitare and Write with Windows 3.1, freecell and bundled AOL offers with Windows 95.
Microsoft has continued to pack more and more "extra" features into Windows, to the point where they're considered basic functions. Remember ordering Snagit for Windows 3.1? You know, that really powerful screen capture utility that would capture specific regions, timed shots, even animations? Windows has a stripped down version called the "Print Screen" key.
It's the whole concept of Microsoft taking other people's ideas and embedding them into their software. (You've got Media Player, Compressed Folders, Terminal Server, Internet Explorer, Disk Defragmenter, Backup, and just about everything else under the "Accessories" menu.)
The problem isn't with the fact that the stuff is there, the problem is with Microsoft's not playing fair with other companies as it put the stuff there. More than one small software house suddenly found itself without a foot to stand on because the latest version of Windows had their functionality built-in.
What's this Submit thingy do?
Rich
A) VA Linux ONLY sold rack mounts.
That's where they should have thrived. They didn't.
B) Capitalism is determined by competition in a free-market. The desktop PC OS market is governed by a monopoly which by it's very definition means it's no longer a free-market. Look it up.
free market:
Definition 1
Business governed by the laws of supply and demand, not restrained by government interference, regulation or subsidy.
You're talking about government restriction. That's not free. That's quite the opposite.
C) Did you even read my post? Did I even *mention* forcing anybody to sell anything? No. It's about forcing somebody to *not* sell something in a bundle. There are plenty of rules like this already in place, ask your local telephone company for one example.
You can say it any way that you want. The fact is, you're still suggesting that a gov't FORCES a business to sell product A as opposed to product B. The only reason a gov't should FORCE a company NOT to sell something, as you put it, is if it's inherently dangerous (ie: a doll stuffed with arsenic)
And, I think that the phone industry is a pile of shit. It's too expensive and service is shit because it's regulated. That's why I had my home phone disconnected.
Yes they can.
1) Boot into DOS command line (not command prompt from Windows).
2) Find the directory containing IE/MP and use the command RD/s to remove them.
3) reboot into Windows
4) Run Regedit and manually remove all references to deleted applications
Windows won't let you remove these directories from Explorer, but it can be done under DOS. Note that it doesn't work in command prompt from Windows, you have to reboot into DOS.
I used this technique to remove IE, MP, and Outlook from my PC at home. Works fine.
Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
How about this:
1) Create a superior media player
2) Sell it
3) Profit!
That should be:
1) Create a superior media player
2) Sell it
3) Profit! (briefly)
4) Watch helplessly as Microsoft bundles a slightly-less-capable-but-good-enough equivalent with the next version of windows.
5) File lawsuit against Microsoft, spending millions on legal fees.
6) Maybe get a pitiful settlement years later, long after it's too late to matter.
7) File for chapter 11 bankruptcy.
See the problem?
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
2 words-
SPY WARE
To to growing interest in opposing MS they will introduce MS Anti-MS with every copy of windows. This would point to MS-sponsered Anti-MS sites hosted on MSN thereby removing competition in that market as well!
If the French spoke German, you might have a point.
The UNSC Resolution called for Iraq to immediatly disarm and demanded full compliance or face serious consequences. France voted for that resolution - only the 18th that calls for Iraq to disarm.
I guess only moron and Frenchmen with large oil contracts in Iraq don't understand what that meant.
I use only NT, 2k, and XP because of work. I assume you're referring to 95, 98, and ME because the "workstation" Windows' won't boot to DOS. So they can not be removed from all versions of Windows (at least not with your method).
Developers: We can use your help.
Indeed I found mediaplayer to be uninstallable from Windows XP Pro. I didn't give it quite as much time as I did back when Win98 included IE and I wanted to rip it out so it might be possible, but it's certainly far from simple. I remember Win95 having an explorer.exe replacement built in, something really innovative called progman.exe ;-))
Learn from the mistakes of others. There isn't enough time to make them all yourself.
Simple solution: the EU makes it illegal to trade Microsoft product in the EU until MS complies.
hey, some people really want windows to be better or gone, i don't use them but they are usually right in front of some "i need you to teach me computers" people that just don't accept "this is actually not my job" for an answer.
Washington bullets will simply be known as the "Bulle
Uninstall.
-pyrrho
now about that independence thing... usa keeps following england's rules more and more lately :>
Wrong on both analogies...
I've never noticed anything that made media only play on windows media player. I'm more than happy to use winamp, along with some extra plugins and codecs that play all the media I want.
The issue is around WMP coming integrated with windows, which is dumb.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of MS and it's squash-you-like-a-bug marketing tactics... but when you're trying to build a "multimedia operating system" (and don't tell me XP is not) then integrating multimedia components isn't really so bad. Nothing stops the user from buying/downloading a product that's more convenient to use, it's just that WMP comes in the OS, and many media features are integrated.
Personally, I sometimes like the fact that integrated browsing in explorer gives me a preview of an AVI (in case the content of a recently downloaded file is objectionable to me) or allows me to preview audio. I'm sure that perhaps somebody else could do a better job in areas, and windows is still a bloated mess, but taking all this out would reduce the OS to a shell of its current self.
guarantees?-)
the only guarantee with off-the-shelf software is that the eula will be horrible to understand and will void anything else you might thought them to guarantee.
off-the-shelf software tends to have ridiculuously bad attitude towards guarantees, strangely enough nobody seems to even care. software is bought 'as it is' without any guarantee that it does half of the things it says on the box. imagine that with regular products like bicycles, ovens and so. you would be pretty pissed off calling at the consumer support line if you bought an oven that worked for one week and the store refuses to refund it!
heck, there is a guarantee(almost certain from past behauviour) that ms will break it's OWN implementation from working with future versions totally correctly.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
More like...the French intervention in the US Revolutionary War was not by the consent of the French people. It was the action of a monarch's paid army on a foreign adventure that few even paid much attention to. So the French then, as today, didn't really care much about it.
The bad French attitude comes from the eclipse of their national star and their sense of being a second-class power. Objectively, would you grant a UN Security Council veto to France (or Britain, for that matter) today? Nah, India would get it.
They know this too.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Windows Media Player has been bundled with windows as far back as Win31 (perhaps more).
OK, this I find confusing: on Windows, the command interpreter (I assume that's what you mean) can be un-installed and replaced, but the terminal emulator can't?!?!
There are reasons why democracy does not work nearly as well as capitalism.
-- David D. Friedman
The window manager is a fundamental part of the OS? Since when?
There are reasons why democracy does not work nearly as well as capitalism.
-- David D. Friedman
Actually, a filesystem is a fundamental system service, but a partiular filesystem is not fundamental. On any decent system, filesystems can be swapped out.
There are reasons why democracy does not work nearly as well as capitalism.
-- David D. Friedman
scripsit jcast:
Terminal emulator? Where did that come from?
In principio creauit Linus Linucem.
You know, terminal emulator, as in the thing that connects your keyboard and screen to the stdin/stdout of the command prompt?
There are reasons why democracy does not work nearly as well as capitalism.
-- David D. Friedman
scripsit weave:
Um, why do you need speakers on servers for this? Or a media player? I've got speakers and a media player on my workstation (and my laptop for that matter); if I need to mess with a server, that's what ssh is for.
(Running mpg321 over a ssh connection to the server is a good way to give someone a heart attack if the server does have speakers, BTW, especially if you choose the mp3 and your timing carefully... aumix -v 100 && mpg321 evil.mp3)
In principio creauit Linus Linucem.
scripsit praedor:
These things aren't always clear cut. I think we'd all agree that The GIMP is an application, for example. What about Galeon? I say app. How about your window manager? File manager? Not so easy. How 'bout cat? Part of the OS? less? bzip2? I'm not going to make that call.
This is why the problem is so difficult, because there's no clear line, unless you say that the OS is just the kernel. (Then it really is just Linux, and not GNU/Linux. <grin>) I've done Linux from Scratch before, and I've come to appreciate a distro that comes with a bit more...
I can see how a Windows user, unfamiliar with all the ramifications of MS's anticompetitiveness, would say he wants all he can get to ``come with Windows.'' When I was younger, I thought it was pretty cool that DOS had started to come with defrag or whatever it was called; it took time to realize that this wasn't necessarily a good thing.
In principio creauit Linus Linucem.
Login scripts and some other things obviously expect the std terminal emulator.
But there's nothing stopping you from installing another one. (google for eConsole).
If MS wants to build, say a componentized HTML renderer, or media playback library (DirectShow) that any application on Windows can use what's so wrong with that? All that IE and MediaPlayer are are simple wrappers around those reusable components.
If you think about it, apart from the very inner guts of the kernel, virtually everything an OS provides is some sort of reusable component for applications to take advantage of. Ten years ago, a TCP/IP stack was considered an exotic extra for Windows that one had to install separately. Now it's considered a part of the core system. Why are media codecs or HTML renderers conceptually different? (Or are you in favour of forcing MS to unbundle their evil monopolistic TCP/IP stack, fonts and graphical filesystem viewer?)
He was being sarcastic.
I've always said that if I ever go Unabomber, one of my first pairs of targets will be the Mediaplayer dev group and the offices of Real. They will each receive a pipe bomb set to go off at the exact same time. When they go off, I envision a little piece of paper floating out, only to be grabbed out of mid-air. Each note will read "This pipe will configure itself to be the default for all future bombs." And then each person will hold the paper to the sky and scream "Khan!" At least in my daydreams.
I suppose they could keep that up by a little creative accounting as long as they grow by leaps and bound. But the moment they level off ... wham!
The French never did anything that didn't directly benefit them.
Have the Americans ever done anything that didn't directly benefit them?
From the yahoo article, "Ney said he was of French descent"
A legislator of French descent whose name sounds like a vote against. Should he really be complaining about a French veto?
Seriously, if he's of French descent, he can go back to France and help vote in a government that won't veto American foreign policy. Without Lafayette, American freedom would have been fried 220 years ago. France was first to our side, first to recognize our independence, and steadfast in friendship ever since.
I'm not sure I really get this whole issue around Microsoft. Must be due to my tender years.
The way I see it is this: they make an operating system; it's their operating system, and they chose to bundle a browser and a media player with it, that cannot be uninstalled. So what? Don't like that, don't buy Windows. It's not as if they didn't allow alternative software to be installed at all. And even if they did that, it would simply affect their product's feature list. Again, don't like it, get some other OS.
Now, if and when they boycot alternative software (not allowing hardware vendors to pre-pack another browser, for example) -- OK, that's not fair. But complaining about the bundled non-removable software doesn't make sense to me.
Some of you may point out all the businesses built around and based on Microsoft Windows and how they can't very well up and change OS one day. Do those businesses really care about the bundled browser and WMP issue?
Even by analogy this doesn't add up. You choose to by a piece of software and it comes bundled with a feature that you can't get rid of, and you knew that when you bought it. Don't like it, don't buy it. Why the big issue? Is an operating system special somehow in such manner that this analogy doesn't apply anymore?
"The French never did anything that didn't directly benefit them"
Since when has sheer altruism been a motivating factor in international affairs?
Do you seriously thing dubya would be so keen to liberate the people of Iraq from a vile tyrant if:
He had no need to "busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels", having been scorched in the Enron scandal? Minor motivation
Iraq didn't have vast oil reserves which GWB can control directly or by proxy? Major motivation
I despair sometimes, I really do...
T&K.
Political language
I don't wish to offend Europeans (NOT a troll), but this E.U commision is a whole pile of shit..
1) That damn U.K Government is the only thing relevant between Europe and the rest of the world
2) When will they learn. M$ ain't going to change it's product (Windoze) to accomodate the legal problems of one Continent. If they need to stay there, they might end up selling off their European subsidiaries to reliable and trusted (read: No Linux) companies and give them the license to sell Microsoft products, therefore making it impossible for Microsoft to be lawsuit'ed in Europe directly.
But won't this break all the 3rd party apps that are expecting either Media Player or IE to be there so that they can call on MP or IE as an ActiveX component? Also, hate to discourage you, but IE isn't contained in just one place on the hard drive. There's the IE folder sure, but there is also IE information in "Documents and Settings" and perhaps other places.
Furry cows moo and decompress.
That's true, but based on what I've seen and read of MS's activity over the years, I've seen nothing to make me believe they're benevolent. If MS were indeed benevolent, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with them. But they aren't. They just want all the corporate power they can have, yet more still.
Furry cows moo and decompress.
Slashdot sux and you got modded off topic to boot. I feel your pain.
(I also feel my own pain since this post got rejected the first time I submited on account of I just posted something else.)
They've had to "uncouple" IE. Now they're being asked to uncouple Media Player.
What's next? Uncoupling the calculator? The start button? Command prompt?
Following this line of thinking ad absurdum, what exactly is Microsoft allowed to package with Windows? Sheesh!
Replaceable componentry is usually advisable based on engineering principle, but in this case legal systems are imposing a component based approach, attempting to protect their free markets.
-pyrrho
I don't think that persuing the Media Player issue is so important as stuff that benefits the consumer. The consumer currently doesn't have a choice of OS. This is because Microsoft "awards" the so-called "market development funds" and other such offers to OEMs which install Windows on all PCs that they sell. These offers are just loopholes to get around the so-called "uniform licensing provision". The margins on PCs are so small that if an OEM looses these discounts they will become uncompetive. That's why you don't see Linux offered on any low range PCs from the big OEMs. I think the EU should outright ban the "market development funds" scheme and all other such "offers" to really level the playing field.
M$ ain't going to change it's product (Windoze) to accomodate the legal problems of one Continent
Actually, they probably would if it comes to that. They make a lot of their revenue in Europe, perhaps even as much or more as in the US (the EU does have 380 million people after all, and many members are among the richest countries in the world). Microsoft is a company that wants it all, they wouldn't ever sacrifice the European market and let open source establish a bigger base there from which to eventually take on Microsoft with increased strength.
Neither Germany nor Italy ever attacked us; our beef was with Japan.
But there's a little something called an alliance that obligated us to be involved in the European theatre, which, might I remind you, included freeing France from German occupation. Please feel free to explain the direct benefit we accomplished there.
But today we have France thumbing its nose at its obligation to NATO, choosing instead a road defined by opposition to the U.S. at every turn, rather than its duty to protect its allies (Turkey).
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
I still find the main block to selling Linux into commercial companies is Office. I can't bullshit people with "OO.org is 100% Office compatible" because unless your a multi-billion $ monopoly you can't lie to people and have them come back.
.doc file without graphics, frames or tables having moved an inch in any direction. 95% is not enough for people who have thousands of docs going back to ther year dot and don't have time to spend shuffling misplaced logos and the like.
/bill/gates
Open M$Office file formats to competitiors and the M$ stranglehold will start to fall apart.
The topic of conversation should be more about how seemingly intelligent people in the US gov and EU comp. commision are apparently blind to the grip that M$Office exerts over the market place.
To finish, I have several clients who have been all ready for Linux until I told them OO.org was about 95% likely to open a
COME ON EU FORCE M$ OFFICE INTO A COMPETETIVE ENVIRONMENT! Then maybe we'll see how value added the 95% of functions that no-one uses really are.
grep -i concept-of-ethics-or-morality
Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
Window manager: app.
File manager: app. of course, last time I checked files were not hardware.
cat: app. naturally.
less: app.
bzip2: app.
Part of the OS? anything that administers hardware (drivers, memory managers, filesystem software, schedulers, etc).
The classic definition works fine, why do you mess up with it?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Political contributions are far more controlled in the EU than in the US (in the UK you can't buy TV airtime for political adds and all parties must be given fair access tonews on TV and radio).
Big mergers that went without a hitch in the US were stopped fully in the EU due to concerns about monopoly creation.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
... they need to be educated.
Nobody objects to MS being a successful company, what many people despise is that sucha successful company uses illegal and immoral means to keep its dominant position in the market.
Many people want a healthy innovative MS that earns its cash based on merit and not based in arm-twisting and "embracing and exteding" to the extent that they are found guilty in a court of law.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
that would make a HUGE difference.. not 10% of worldwide profits, but INCOME. IANAA (Accountant), but taking 10% of the profits is a slap on the writs, as profits are subject to many variables. The only way a company can reduce income is to sell less or lower prices...
and 10% is possibly enough to make MS run losses every quarter.. which means that they wouldn't be paying dividends... now if the company was hemmoraging, would everyone want to pt money in the stock cauldron?
(consider the difference between 10% of your "free income" and 10% of the "total amount"... makes the difference between living in a house and living in a pup-tent)
Okay, I realize that the popular conception of the war is that France sat around and did nothing while the Americans came to the rescue, but let's look at the actual chronology of the war:
1939:
9/1: Germany invades Poland
9/3: Britain and France declare war on Germany
9/5: USA declares neutrality
France obviously got their asses kicked, but the point is that they were coming to the aid of a defenceless ally.
1941:
12/7: Japan declares war on USA
12/8: USA & Britain declare war on Japan
12/11: Germany & Italy declare war on USA
12/11: USA declares war on Germany & Italy
Isolationism was a popular sentiment in the U.S. at the time, despite what the popular image of the era is. Note that in WW2, the U.S. did not declare war on each of the axis powers until they had declared war on the U.S. first. France, meanwhile, had a mutual-defence pact that obliged them to go to war for their allies. While I agree that the French contribution to the war pales in comparison to the U.S.'s, we shouldn't pretend that they were simply doing nothing, or that the U.S. was simply being alturistic.
Hitler, in their eyes, was supposed to take Poland and start tangling with Russia, which was the "big enemy" as far as Nazi rhetoric was concerned. Meanwhile the Western Europeans were supposed to sit it out while the totalitarians killed each other off. Churchill was against this, but he wasn't in a position of real power until too late to affect the outcome.
Hitler obviously had other plans, however, and the French reaped what they sowed at Versailles, and had continuted to sow in their callous sacrifice of the Sudatenland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, and, effectively, Poland as well.
"All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others." - George Orwell
Systems have sub-systems and sub-systems have sub-systems and so on ad
infinitum -- which is why we're always starting over.
-- Epigrams in Programming, ACM SIGPLAN Sept. 1982
- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...