An interface I feel just fits in the Unixspace is Ion. Because, as you said, the interface must deal with how we work/think/opperate. And how do we work on Unix? We do use CLI.
For you it just fits becuase you are habituated to the CLI. Ion is like fluxbox, something for people who constantly use the terminal. Archy uses command line interfaces to a great extent, but it is not a window manager designed to make the current interface paradims easier to use. I could crtique the rest of that paragraph but you obviously don't grasp the concept of GUI's and what they are doing.
I remember, a long time ago reading/looking at Archy, but it's Windows-only.
Archy is written in Python. Its more portable than Java. The only reason their isn't a Linux and Mac binary is becuase they have problems redefining keyboard inputs. If anyone can help, please do so.
How can we instruct people to perform 50+ instructions via a GUI? We can't. We must use a phone line, or write a document. Click 50 times. Go crazy.
You have the same problems in pure CLI's. The real problem is that they don't reuse instructions. Think of how many different text editors you have, literally every place you input text seems to have a different set of rules. If there was one way to input text it would be habit, instead we have to learn what habits to use where. This isn't just for text, nearly every type of operation has multiple ways to do basically the same thing.
Okay, after that I kinda loose you. Archy is a hybrid CLI/GUI. You want it based on a different language? And why the hell on a weird icongraphic one? So we have another load of shit to memorize? Icons without labels are useless for beginers, let alone the entire thing based on some wierd ass language made of them.
Why a mouse and not a Joystick?
Steve jobs was sold on the mouse. They tested joysticks, force inputs, and more in the early development of GUIs. I can't remember if any of them tested better. But really, have you ever used a touchscreen or sketchpad? I could imagine an interface for a joystick that might be usable, but those things _suck_ to use. No physical feedback, harder to habituate, etc.
I could go on but this is a rather uninformed post so I just hit on what is some more common misconceptions. I am tired, so forgive the lack of spell check again.
No, the fact that this point is well known, well troded, overly discussed, engery burning issue that has been discussed a thousand times. Why does someone with an iota of information get a modded up like this? This is how the mod system gets broken. mby we should have a -1 overdiscussed mod system.
"Most use 'intuition.' But this 'intuition' is generally nothing more than familiarity. And familiarity does not fix the current, demonstrable problems. "
The last line should have read "Familiarity is generally just the reuse of old paradigms, which reimplemented the same demonstrable problems."
The benchmarks showing OS X's problems are here. There are several articles on why Mach (and to some extent the original microkernal design) is poor at handling lots of things at once. Just go read up on microkernels and MACH. New microkernels are better at handling this. L4Ka::Pistachio is well known as it was chosen for the resurrected GNU HURD OS.
I would like to reiterate that I was a die in the wool, cut me I will bleed green, yellow, orange, red, purple, and blue IN THAT ORDER, M$ SUCKS, Mac Freakboy. Then I learned how we interact with computers, what our limits and abilities are, how to fix the current problems, and eventually just got pissed every time I use an interface. Which includes locks, cars, dishwashers, ad infinitum.
As a final thought I would like to interject that we design programs knowing the abilities of computers. To a large extent the best software is the one written by those that understand the fundamental things that are going on with every new thing we tackle in programming. Those who design with the fundamentals in mind get good results. Why are we borrowing from MS blindly? Who are known to screw up how they engineer interfaces from the start. We don't do that with any other major part of the OS unless _forced_. To the user the interface IS the operating system, the hardware, to a great extent it is wholly the computer.
First off let me say that the desktop situation is abysmal on _every_ OS. Their are fundamental decisions stemming from the earliest GUI's that slow the speed of the interfaces and allow for entirely unneeded errors.
All this is _provable_. Speed of an interface can be modeled using the GOMS framework. If you are new to GOMS do not argue its accuracy here, there are several newbie mistakes that have been explained and would only serve to cloud the debate. Ever get annoyed at how fast the terminal is to use, and GUI's only seem to get in the way? GOMS explains it, typing is much much faster than the _multiple steps_ involved in using a mouse. Not to say that GUIs or mice are bad, but poorly implimented. GOMs can show when to use mice, when to use typing, and how to structure the size and conceptual model of an interface to be as speedy as possible.
But GOMs in and of itself is only a tool. Not a guide on how to create an interface. Liken this to racetracks. Once can sure build a fast car when their motive and only measure is speed, but can be more expensive, unsafe, unreliable, etc, etc, etc.
So where can one reliably make an interface that works well with humans? Most use "intuition." But this "intuition" is genrally nothing more than familiarity. And familiarty does not fix the current, demostratable problems.
So where does one turn? To the science of how humans think, their limitations, and the subset focusing on human computer interaction. Cognitives cience
Using this one can construct an interface based on what humans can do. It has exposed our limits and abilities. What mental models we handle better. Folders and Files? A model based on our desks, not a model based on how our brains handle information and computer interactions.
Using these tools we can end up with an interface faster than the terminal, easier to use, and less error prone than either GUI or terminal based programs. Don't believe me? Try Archy. It is a nearly total departure from standard interfaces. Thus for anyone familiar with comptuers have to retrain their muscle memory. One will constantly reach for the mouse in a vein effort to select text. It will piss you off. If you habituate it's use you will find how much harder and more complex the other text editing interfaces are.
Interfaces are a thing we can fix that Windows and OS X can't without major losses. We have upserped Windows in security and stability. Things Windows _cannot_ fix without breaking everything. OS X has poor performance. In fact horrific proformance thanks to the MACH core. The interface is one of the last major thing in OSS software that MS and Apple are beating us at.
BUT ITS FREE!! Which is a lie. Yes, it is not their higher costs of administration, vendor support, and retraining. It is also the worst selling point. Ask any professional sales person. The only people that hooks are people you don't want to deal with. Just reimagine that mangager that was a cheapskate manager who pinched every penny and lost dollars in lost productivity. The old pinch pennies, trip over dollars.
We have to beat them where they are sore, and believe me, their interface sucks. I use OS X. It is only less annoying than windows or UNIX.
Okay, I really have to go, this thing needs to be edited in half, correct the spelling, etc. but I have dinner calling me. Agree, disagree but interested? Email me, we can bitch over the finer points : ) aal357 REPLACETHIS sent dot com
Thanks for the obvious, and probably flame bait post. If this doens't happen to be trolling please stop just respouting what you read and learn something.
And below, we will find the barrage of more obvious and well treaded issues consiting of finger pointing, examples of Windows not having drivers, and denials.
"GTA isn't about fucking hookers or killing cops." Really?! Shit! Then why do I and all my ADHD friends just fuck hookers and kill cops? Oh wait, its about seeing who can punch in the cheat codes fastest too right?
"who have pirated music," Not, "that pirate music on a regular basis." I wonder if the same goes for the legal downloads, have or regularly do. I have downloaded legally and found DRM a pain in the ass, and continue to get my shite from P2P and allofmp3.com.
Also is that replacing illegal downloaders or is it gaining new users.
I am not trying to argue anything here, but gauge the state of the industry.
Sorry about the spelling, I have a Birthday celebration to attend.
Then why would Linksys let it's firmware be OpenSourced? Yeah, of course the hardware can do more than is legally allowed, but it's not illegal. I can have a radio anntenna as long as I don't broadcast out of the free range. As soon as I start interfering with other signals it becomes illegal.
Goms demonstrates this.
It takes a reletive.2 seconds to tap a key. It takes a reletive 1.85 seconds to think about moving to the mouse, locating where to point the mouse, and moving it there.
There is an interface that works all this out to be as fast as the command line, easier to use then any current GUI or command line, and is matched up to what humans can do cognativly. It's text editor is Archy, and as a whole it's called The Humane Interface. It is Jef Raskin's design. The man behind the original Macintosh inteface, and pioneered a lot of earlier interface testing.
KDE, Gnome, MS Windows, and OS X take note: Please stop ripping each other off, and start designing from what a user can do. Also, start doing more both theoretical GOMS testing and real world user testing.
Archy link
Dude, totally. First clue: No authentication scheme. I mean fuck, without it being digital signed, puh, any thrid grade crypto specialist knows what can happen.
The shadows don't match up, total C/P job on the wiring, gah any third grade photoshop trainee could have hacked that up in like 20 minutes. Or a farker for that matter.
The problem is that Bill has formed a company where spaghetti code is okay. They force through projects before they are near done, and as a result everything not only is full of bugs but also incredibly insescure.
Open source does cost money. I have been trying for years to get a free computer that will just run a linux distro and not crash n' burn or require weeks of tech help. I finally just plucked down the $300 and picked it up from the UPS store this morning. Finally I can start hacking without it being interuppted every 10 minutes with hardware problems cuased by these POS Dell, HP, and other "name brand" computers.
And why didn't I use my main computer? Can't it cost me my job becuase I was testing too much stuff on it and it crashed on a VERY bad day with a VERY pissy client.
Some may say I need to just flex more geek nuts, I say I need to be able to devote all that time and energy getting things to work hardware wise to just learning the software stuff.
I have been sitting on 5 mod points for two days, waiting for a story I know enough about. I finally see this, something I can mod up the sane coders in the world. And what the hell happens?! Somewhere between 9:00 AM and 6:00 I lost my mod points! Cruel world! Well, maybe it will get a little better if they not only get their shit together but force everyone to start using IE7 so I don't have to wait 3 years to prgram for it.
Slashdot Mirror
I am alllll for that. Fuck the international space station, or whatever else we need to cut from the budget to get his body on the moon!
For you it just fits becuase you are habituated to the CLI. Ion is like fluxbox, something for people who constantly use the terminal. Archy uses command line interfaces to a great extent, but it is not a window manager designed to make the current interface paradims easier to use. I could crtique the rest of that paragraph but you obviously don't grasp the concept of GUI's and what they are doing.
Archy is written in Python. Its more portable than Java. The only reason their isn't a Linux and Mac binary is becuase they have problems redefining keyboard inputs. If anyone can help, please do so.
You have the same problems in pure CLI's. The real problem is that they don't reuse instructions. Think of how many different text editors you have, literally every place you input text seems to have a different set of rules. If there was one way to input text it would be habit, instead we have to learn what habits to use where. This isn't just for text, nearly every type of operation has multiple ways to do basically the same thing.Okay, after that I kinda loose you. Archy is a hybrid CLI/GUI. You want it based on a different language? And why the hell on a weird icongraphic one? So we have another load of shit to memorize? Icons without labels are useless for beginers, let alone the entire thing based on some wierd ass language made of them.
Steve jobs was sold on the mouse. They tested joysticks, force inputs, and more in the early development of GUIs. I can't remember if any of them tested better. But really, have you ever used a touchscreen or sketchpad? I could imagine an interface for a joystick that might be usable, but those things _suck_ to use. No physical feedback, harder to habituate, etc.
I could go on but this is a rather uninformed post so I just hit on what is some more common misconceptions. I am tired, so forgive the lack of spell check again.
What OSS needs now is to invest in things like Archy and for KDE, Gnome, and others to fully embrace these concepts.
Much of the groundwork has already been laid. While continual testing is needed they aren't as expensive as getting voulenteers is pretty easy.
No, the fact that this point is well known, well troded, overly discussed, engery burning issue that has been discussed a thousand times. Why does someone with an iota of information get a modded up like this? This is how the mod system gets broken. mby we should have a -1 overdiscussed mod system.
Okay, dinner, dishes, bathing kids: done.
Let me clarify a couple points.
"Most use 'intuition.' But this 'intuition' is generally nothing more than familiarity. And familiarity does not fix the current, demonstrable problems. "
The last line should have read "Familiarity is generally just the reuse of old paradigms, which reimplemented the same demonstrable problems."
The benchmarks showing OS X's problems are here. There are several articles on why Mach (and to some extent the original microkernal design) is poor at handling lots of things at once. Just go read up on microkernels and MACH. New microkernels are better at handling this. L4Ka::Pistachio is well known as it was chosen for the resurrected GNU HURD OS.
I would like to reiterate that I was a die in the wool, cut me I will bleed green, yellow, orange, red, purple, and blue IN THAT ORDER, M$ SUCKS, Mac Freakboy. Then I learned how we interact with computers, what our limits and abilities are, how to fix the current problems, and eventually just got pissed every time I use an interface. Which includes locks, cars, dishwashers, ad infinitum.
As a final thought I would like to interject that we design programs knowing the abilities of computers. To a large extent the best software is the one written by those that understand the fundamental things that are going on with every new thing we tackle in programming. Those who design with the fundamentals in mind get good results. Why are we borrowing from MS blindly? Who are known to screw up how they engineer interfaces from the start. We don't do that with any other major part of the OS unless _forced_. To the user the interface IS the operating system, the hardware, to a great extent it is wholly the computer.
First off let me say that the desktop situation is abysmal on _every_ OS. Their are fundamental decisions stemming from the earliest GUI's that slow the speed of the interfaces and allow for entirely unneeded errors.
All this is _provable_. Speed of an interface can be modeled using the GOMS framework. If you are new to GOMS do not argue its accuracy here, there are several newbie mistakes that have been explained and would only serve to cloud the debate. Ever get annoyed at how fast the terminal is to use, and GUI's only seem to get in the way? GOMS explains it, typing is much much faster than the _multiple steps_ involved in using a mouse. Not to say that GUIs or mice are bad, but poorly implimented. GOMs can show when to use mice, when to use typing, and how to structure the size and conceptual model of an interface to be as speedy as possible.
But GOMs in and of itself is only a tool. Not a guide on how to create an interface. Liken this to racetracks. Once can sure build a fast car when their motive and only measure is speed, but can be more expensive, unsafe, unreliable, etc, etc, etc.
So where can one reliably make an interface that works well with humans? Most use "intuition." But this "intuition" is genrally nothing more than familiarity. And familiarty does not fix the current, demostratable problems.
So where does one turn? To the science of how humans think, their limitations, and the subset focusing on human computer interaction. Cognitives cience
Using this one can construct an interface based on what humans can do. It has exposed our limits and abilities. What mental models we handle better. Folders and Files? A model based on our desks, not a model based on how our brains handle information and computer interactions.
Using these tools we can end up with an interface faster than the terminal, easier to use, and less error prone than either GUI or terminal based programs. Don't believe me? Try Archy. It is a nearly total departure from standard interfaces. Thus for anyone familiar with comptuers have to retrain their muscle memory. One will constantly reach for the mouse in a vein effort to select text. It will piss you off. If you habituate it's use you will find how much harder and more complex the other text editing interfaces are.
Interfaces are a thing we can fix that Windows and OS X can't without major losses. We have upserped Windows in security and stability. Things Windows _cannot_ fix without breaking everything. OS X has poor performance. In fact horrific proformance thanks to the MACH core. The interface is one of the last major thing in OSS software that MS and Apple are beating us at.
BUT ITS FREE!! Which is a lie. Yes, it is not their higher costs of administration, vendor support, and retraining. It is also the worst selling point. Ask any professional sales person. The only people that hooks are people you don't want to deal with. Just reimagine that mangager that was a cheapskate manager who pinched every penny and lost dollars in lost productivity. The old pinch pennies, trip over dollars.
We have to beat them where they are sore, and believe me, their interface sucks. I use OS X. It is only less annoying than windows or UNIX.
Okay, I really have to go, this thing needs to be edited in half, correct the spelling, etc. but I have dinner calling me. Agree, disagree but interested? Email me, we can bitch over the finer points : ) aal357 REPLACETHIS sent dot com
Thanks for the obvious, and probably flame bait post. If this doens't happen to be trolling please stop just respouting what you read and learn something.
And below, we will find the barrage of more obvious and well treaded issues consiting of finger pointing, examples of Windows not having drivers, and denials.
If someone could post a magnet link or tell me how to do it. The site was still up for me, but the wiki and google turned up a way that was beyond me.
Yeah, this is why OS X and Mach blow as servers. No, really.
And how nicely ironic the 13,000,000nth post is..
"GTA isn't about fucking hookers or killing cops."
Really?! Shit! Then why do I and all my ADHD friends just fuck hookers and kill cops? Oh wait, its about seeing who can punch in the cheat codes fastest too right?
I already have friends there, a pad to crash at, and would streak if I could get a plane ride!
"who have pirated music," Not, "that pirate music on a regular basis." I wonder if the same goes for the legal downloads, have or regularly do. I have downloaded legally and found DRM a pain in the ass, and continue to get my shite from P2P and allofmp3.com.
Also is that replacing illegal downloaders or is it gaining new users.
I am not trying to argue anything here, but gauge the state of the industry.
Sorry about the spelling, I have a Birthday celebration to attend.
Posting a working Coral link is usually useless as it doesn't have a chance to cache it. Posting a link to Coral is _totally_ useless.
Then why would Linksys let it's firmware be OpenSourced? Yeah, of course the hardware can do more than is legally allowed, but it's not illegal. I can have a radio anntenna as long as I don't broadcast out of the free range. As soon as I start interfering with other signals it becomes illegal.
I mean, come on-- what company doesn't want to sell their software?
One who makes most of their money on hardware.
Goms demonstrates this. .2 seconds to tap a key. It takes a reletive 1.85 seconds to think about moving to the mouse, locating where to point the mouse, and moving it there.
It takes a reletive
There is an interface that works all this out to be as fast as the command line, easier to use then any current GUI or command line, and is matched up to what humans can do cognativly. It's text editor is Archy, and as a whole it's called The Humane Interface. It is Jef Raskin's design. The man behind the original Macintosh inteface, and pioneered a lot of earlier interface testing.
KDE, Gnome, MS Windows, and OS X take note: Please stop ripping each other off, and start designing from what a user can do. Also, start doing more both theoretical GOMS testing and real world user testing.
Archy link
Red Sox win
We know who deep throat is
Apple switches to X86
and Sarge was actually released.
Its armageddon. Or the Heart Of Gold just flew by.
Actually /. is ranked 30th by netcraft in terms of visits, fark is ranked in the 400's.
Dude, totally. First clue:
No authentication scheme. I mean fuck, without it being digital signed, puh, any thrid grade crypto specialist knows what can happen.
The shadows don't match up, total C/P job on the wiring, gah any third grade photoshop trainee could have hacked that up in like 20 minutes. Or a farker for that matter.
Towels should be at the top of your list.
The problem is that Bill has formed a company where spaghetti code is okay. They force through projects before they are near done, and as a result everything not only is full of bugs but also incredibly insescure.
This isn't a troll, no way.
Open source does cost money. I have been trying for years to get a free computer that will just run a linux distro and not crash n' burn or require weeks of tech help. I finally just plucked down the $300 and picked it up from the UPS store this morning. Finally I can start hacking without it being interuppted every 10 minutes with hardware problems cuased by these POS Dell, HP, and other "name brand" computers.
And why didn't I use my main computer? Can't it cost me my job becuase I was testing too much stuff on it and it crashed on a VERY bad day with a VERY pissy client.
Some may say I need to just flex more geek nuts, I say I need to be able to devote all that time and energy getting things to work hardware wise to just learning the software stuff.
I have been sitting on 5 mod points for two days, waiting for a story I know enough about. I finally see this, something I can mod up the sane coders in the world. And what the hell happens?! Somewhere between 9:00 AM and 6:00 I lost my mod points! Cruel world! Well, maybe it will get a little better if they not only get their shit together but force everyone to start using IE7 so I don't have to wait 3 years to prgram for it.
But hey, PNG Alpha support, FUCK YES! Lets party!