you could forgo the "getting to know you" part and go out "toothin" as described in one of the front page articles of wired.com
Brits Going at It Tooth and Nail By Daniel Terdiman Story location: http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,62687,00. html
02:00 AM Mar. 22, 2004 PT
The Brits sure are randy.
First came dogging, an underground swinging scene where couples and sometimes third or fourth parties engage in public sex for an exhibitionist thrill.
And now comes "toothing," where strangers on trains and buses and at bars and concerts hook up for clandestine sex by text messaging each other with their Bluetooth-enabled cell phones or PDAs.
"I've always loved the idea of random sexual encounters, but have never felt brave enough to go to (sex) parties," says Steve, a toother from Hitchin, England. "The beauty of toothing is that there's no pressure. I was reluctant to send messages at first, but the standard greeting, which I found out from (an online toothing forum) is so innocuous there is no chance of offending anyone by sending a random message."
According to the Beginner's Guide to Toothing, the online FAQ written by a man who calls himself Toothy Toothing, toothing is "a form of anonymous sex with strangers -- usually on some form of transport or enclosed area such as a conference or training seminar.... Users 'discover' other computers or phones in the vicinity and then send a speculative message. The usual greeting is: 'Toothing?'"
Toothing takes advantage of the capabilities of Bluetooth, a wireless technology that allows two devices to communicate with each other over short distances. Many mobile phones and PDAs now have built-in Bluetooth functionality and allow users to automatically locate other such devices in their vicinity.
"I live in a commuting town outside London," says Jon, or Toothy Toothing. "The train journey in the morning and evening is slow, tiresome and packed full of miserable people halfheartedly prodding at shiny new tech. You recognize faces within your tiny half-hour community, but you never talk to them."
So last November, Jon remembers, he received a text message on the train from a device called "Angela." That night, he went home and figured out how to respond to incoming text messages and did so the next day.
"Cut a long story short, the messages got more and more flirty -- and after a while I had a good idea of who she was, and I think she'd worked out who I was -- and a couple of days later she dared me to meet next to the toilets at the mainline station we were heading to. We met, we fucked and toothing was born."
Steve's introduction to toothing was similar. He had just bought himself a new mobile phone when he was pinged by someone on his commuter line. "Bored? Talk to me," the message read.
"I thought it was some kind of SMS spam," says Steve. "I was messing with the phone's settings, trying to work out what to do when I got the second message, 'I can see you struggling. Meet me in the toilet and I'll show you what to do.'"
Intrigued, he says, he did as bid.
"It was unlocked," he remembers. "A girl was... in there with her shirt undone. 'This beats the crossword,' she said. And we took it from there."
Steve and hundreds, if not thousands, of others have formed a loose-knit community via Jon's Toothing forum. Although the majority of them are men, there are also many women on the forum, such as "Mysterious Girl," "annie 2uesday," "CandyGrrrl" and others. Members discuss the etiquette of toothing, the best locations to hook up with a toothing partner and whom they hope will be the first celebrities to get involved.
Sometimes they even have a little fun with language.
Under a posting titled "3's company?" one member asked, "Anyone got any views on the statistical chance of a toothing threesome? Would it be Threething?"
In any case, toothing seems to give its participants an exercise in figur
until Linus starts his own open source Linux-based online music store, that works with an open-source-design hard-drive music player even better than all the other stuff out there.
will it run linux? you betcha! will it be beowulf-clusterable? definitely!
If any of you tinfoil hatters are interested... (via anomalist.com)
I found it hilarious that the photo link Hoagland provides at the end goes to a page with a caption that mentions him as an "unidentified guest".
http://www.enterprisemission.com/response.htm
Email Exchange From Rob Roy Britt of Space.com And Richard C. Hoagland on the Plait\Greenberg Allegations
In a message dated 3/12/2004 3:14:35 PM Mountain Standard Time, rbritt@HQ.SPACE.com writes:
Hi Richard: I will be going into some of these issues. Your serious criticism of NASA requires that I discuss your credentials as well. I just spoke with Ralph Greenberg, who has analyzed some of your biographical claims that on your web site. I've read them too, and indeed your web site clearly says that you claim to have been the first to propose the Europa ideas. If you'd like to respond to Greenberg's comments, feel free to e-mail me back.
Rob
Here is what Greenberg said to me:
"It's clear that [Hoagland] deserves no credit for proposing an ocean under the ice on Europa." And regarding the notion of life: "Others before him wrote on the same topic with more merit."
Greenberg says Hoagland deserves some credit for helping to popularize the Europa ideas. But he is bothered that Hoagland does not make an effort to clear the record.
"He never made it quite clear that this was not his original idea in any sense," Greenberg said. "I think it's really shameful that he hasn't been willing to make it crystal clear."
Rob,
OK, here's the real story behind Plait's current accusations....
Greenberg is the source. It is his long-standing "Hoagland obsession" -- which has been going on for years, and can be characterized as nothing less -- that is a clear example of how far certain people are willing to go to smear our reputation and our work. This is a classic case of what I pointed out a couple days ago, about these baseless accusations being fundamentally "political"....
I would hope, as a good reporter, you would prefer to rely on "primary sources" for your story -- as opposed to merely "hearsay" from third parties -- certainly third parties with an obvious political agenda. I would therefore strongly recommend that you begin by actually reading my original 1980 article, "The Europa Enigma" (on the Enterprise website -- http://www.enterprisemission.com/europa.html) -- which appeared in the January, 1980 issue of Star & Sky Magazine... now 25 years old.
In the entire article -- at no time -- do I take undue credit for the original idea of a potential ocean under Europa's icy surface. That is a skillfully spun fiction -- created specifically by our less than honest critics... such as Plait and Greenberg.
What I actually do in this extensive paper is clearly credit Cassen, Peale and Reynolds -- who originated and published in Science Magazine the first tidal model for internal Jovian satellite heating, just before Voyager 1 arrived at Jupiter in early 1979. I clearly credit their original calculations regarding the possibility of tidal heating of Io... and a lesser tidal input maintaining a current possible "liquid ocean for Europa."
But, I also carefully cite their strong caveat (in the then just-published Science tidal paper) that, depending on certain "incalculable factors," such an originally liquid Europan ocean could have frozen solid in the 4.5 billion years of subsequent solar system history.
In other words, in their published model, there was a more than even chance that Europa's ocean now was no longer liquid -- but had become a 100 miles-deep glacier of solid ice! And, if this was the case, if such an original Europan ocean had ever frozen solid, their own tidal calculations in Science clearly stated it could never be unfrozen!
This is where the dishonest critics have carefully,
From what I read on the Atari forum threads, Epic (the game makers) is pretty much against CD checks, but Atari (the game publishers) forces them to put it in. -
"What I want is a blue tooth hands free kit that's small and comfortable enough to keep in your ear (and doesn't make you look like a 'tard, figuratively and literally) that has a very easy way to dock it seamlessly into your phone"
I would like to add that it HAS to look like Uhura's ear piece, otherwise I'm not buying it.
"So everyday you go to work you'll be potentially committing a sackable offence just to beat the system"
Most, if not all "no cellphone" policies are there to reduce the annoyance factor for the other employees, such as talking too loud because the signal is too low (as if that works), and annoying and/or loud ringtones.
So unless there's an interference problem caused by cellular radiation, I don't think that it would be a sackable offence to use a cellphone very discreetly. At worst, there would be a warning, first. I've never heard of people getting sacked outright without being warned first.
if you get a call on your cell, look at the callerID, and call the person back on your office phone.
if you dont have callerID, explain the situation briefly in your voicemail message and that you will immediately call back anyone who leaves their name and phone number.
take your voicemail messages from your office phone.
Investigation Casts Light on the Mysterious Flying Black Triangle By Leonard David posted: 07:00 am ET 05 August 2002
They are big, black, and triangular. In UFO folklore they are proof-positive that planet Earth is a rest stop for joyriding, but road-weary, extraterrestrials.
A just released study by the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS), based in Las Vegas, Nevada, sheds new light on the dark and mysterious craft. They offer a more down-to-earth hypothesis.
NIDS researchers contend that these type vehicles are lighter-than-air, blimp-style craft of the U.S. military's making. Likely powered by "electrokinetic" drive, the lifting body-shaped airships have been skirting the skies from perhaps the early to mid 1980s.
Illinois sighting
NIDS has followed up on their study of last year that correlated sightings of large triangular or delta-shaped objects with Air Force Materiel Command and Air Mobility Command bases throughout the United States. Matches were made suggesting flight paths in and out of certain base locations.
The new assessment focuses on what four police officers, and more than a dozen others observed on January 5, 2000: A large, silent, low-flying black triangular shaped object. It flew on a southwesterly direction between Highland, Illinois and Dupo, located less than 30 miles (48 kilometers) from St. Louis, Missouri.
Part of the flight path took the enormous object near the perimeter of Scott Air Force Base.
NIDS does not come up with definite conclusion regarding the origin of the object sighted in Illinois.
However, the reports jibe with over 150 separate reports of sightings of large triangular or deltoid shaped objects. Those eyewitness accounts, accumulated by NIDS, have mainly come from the United States. A small number of the sightings they have on file come from Canada and Europe.
Ballooning expectations
To bolster their case about military airships being taken for UFOs, analysts at NIDS make a historical note.
Lighter-than-air vehicles held all records for payload, distance, duration, and altitude within the first four decades of the 20th century - even with the advent of the airplane. In fact, save for rocket-powered research aircraft, like the X-15 and the space shuttle, all absolute altitude records are still held by high-altitude scientific balloons.
NIDS makes the case that Big Black Deltas, or BBDs, are U.S. Defense Department airships. They are so large they can carry massive payloads at low altitudes, cruising at speeds three to five times as fast as surface ships.
Among a range of NIDS observations, the group believes the BBDs are powered by electrokinetic/field drives, or airborne nuclear power units. These craft also fly at extreme altitudes, high above conventional aircraft and the pulsing of ground-based traffic control radar.
Elecrokinetic propulsion means that no propellers or jets are used. A hybrid lighter-than-air craft would rely on aerostatic, lift gas, like a balloon. No helicopter-like downwash would be produced. Except for a slight humming from high-voltage control equipment -- and in older BBD versions an occasional coronal discharge -- a Big Black Delta makes no noise.
Given a slew of BBD capabilities -- from silent running, diminished drag, elimination of sonic shockwaves, to operation from ground level to full vacuum -- NIDS calls for pushing this black world technology out into daylight for commercial benefit.
Wheat from the chaff
"What we're trying to do is transform unidentified flying objects, UFOs, into IFOs, or identified flying objects," said Colm Kelleher, deputy administrator for NIDS.
"We want to limit the number of cases that are unidentified in our data bas
Re:Polluting other planets
on
Melting Europa
·
· Score: 1
"That and to have sex and multiply"
Please dont go 'round slashdot giving everyone false hopes!
But to get back to the point of the grandparent post, I think we can infer from our observations of Nature that we can do whatever we want to ourselves, this planet and others... provided that we understand that our actions will come back to haunt us (or not, you never know).
Colour me fatalistic, but one day, the Sun will go supernova and this planet's life will cease to exist as we know it, UNLESS we have built spaceborne Noah's Arks and colonized multiple solar systems. But then by your former date's logic, we shouldnt even bring life (us included) from Earth to other solar systems...
I view it this way, sooner or later, this ship we call Earth is going down. Are we going to go down with it or jump on the lifeboats?
is as old as Canada.
Dunno how much longer they'll exist, but they are more than 100 years old.
People always talk about running Linux in this or that device instead of the original OS it came with...
Maybe now the Microsoft Zealots will come out of the woodwork and ask:
"Yea but, can it run Windows!?"
"Just imagine a BSOD on these?"
etc.
you could forgo the "getting to know you" part and go out "toothin" as described in one of the front page articles of wired.com
... in there with her shirt undone. 'This beats the crossword,' she said. And we took it from there."
Brits Going at It Tooth and Nail By Daniel Terdiman
Story location: http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,62687,00. html
02:00 AM Mar. 22, 2004 PT
The Brits sure are randy.
First came dogging, an underground swinging scene where couples and sometimes third or fourth parties engage in public sex for an exhibitionist thrill.
And now comes "toothing," where strangers on trains and buses and at bars and concerts hook up for clandestine sex by text messaging each other with their Bluetooth-enabled cell phones or PDAs.
"I've always loved the idea of random sexual encounters, but have never felt brave enough to go to (sex) parties," says Steve, a toother from Hitchin, England. "The beauty of toothing is that there's no pressure. I was reluctant to send messages at first, but the standard greeting, which I found out from (an online toothing forum) is so innocuous there is no chance of offending anyone by sending a random message."
According to the Beginner's Guide to Toothing, the online FAQ written by a man who calls himself Toothy Toothing, toothing is "a form of anonymous sex with strangers -- usually on some form of transport or enclosed area such as a conference or training seminar.... Users 'discover' other computers or phones in the vicinity and then send a speculative message. The usual greeting is: 'Toothing?'"
Toothing takes advantage of the capabilities of Bluetooth, a wireless technology that allows two devices to communicate with each other over short distances. Many mobile phones and PDAs now have built-in Bluetooth functionality and allow users to automatically locate other such devices in their vicinity.
"I live in a commuting town outside London," says Jon, or Toothy Toothing. "The train journey in the morning and evening is slow, tiresome and packed full of miserable people halfheartedly prodding at shiny new tech. You recognize faces within your tiny half-hour community, but you never talk to them."
So last November, Jon remembers, he received a text message on the train from a device called "Angela." That night, he went home and figured out how to respond to incoming text messages and did so the next day.
"Cut a long story short, the messages got more and more flirty -- and after a while I had a good idea of who she was, and I think she'd worked out who I was -- and a couple of days later she dared me to meet next to the toilets at the mainline station we were heading to. We met, we fucked and toothing was born."
Steve's introduction to toothing was similar. He had just bought himself a new mobile phone when he was pinged by someone on his commuter line. "Bored? Talk to me," the message read.
"I thought it was some kind of SMS spam," says Steve. "I was messing with the phone's settings, trying to work out what to do when I got the second message, 'I can see you struggling. Meet me in the toilet and I'll show you what to do.'"
Intrigued, he says, he did as bid.
"It was unlocked," he remembers. "A girl was
Steve and hundreds, if not thousands, of others have formed a loose-knit community via Jon's Toothing forum. Although the majority of them are men, there are also many women on the forum, such as "Mysterious Girl," "annie 2uesday," "CandyGrrrl" and others. Members discuss the etiquette of toothing, the best locations to hook up with a toothing partner and whom they hope will be the first celebrities to get involved.
Sometimes they even have a little fun with language.
Under a posting titled "3's company?" one member asked, "Anyone got any views on the statistical chance of a toothing threesome? Would it be Threething?"
In any case, toothing seems to give its participants an exercise in figur
why did they draw a beard and eyebrows on the styrofoam head?
it's just a styrofoam head... after all...
if they wanted to make it look better on the photo, why didnt they just put a real person under the headset?
until Linus starts his own open source Linux-based online music store, that works with an open-source-design hard-drive music player even better than all the other stuff out there.
will it run linux? you betcha!
will it be beowulf-clusterable? definitely!
Eat your hearts out Bill and Steve.
From now on, I will use the word FCC as my favourite swear word.
Here's an example: "This is FCCing brilliant!"
I'll let you guess the exact pronunciation.
-
They can have my TiVo when they pry... umm... it out of... umm... when they pry ME out of... umm...
oh crap...
-
If any of you tinfoil hatters are interested... (via anomalist.com)
....
....
... now 25 years old.
... such as Plait and Greenberg.
... and a lesser tidal input maintaining a current possible "liquid ocean for Europa."
I found it hilarious that the photo link Hoagland provides at the end goes to a page with a caption that mentions him as an "unidentified guest".
http://www.enterprisemission.com/response.htm
Email Exchange From Rob Roy Britt of Space.com
And Richard C. Hoagland on the Plait\Greenberg Allegations
In a message dated 3/12/2004 3:14:35 PM Mountain Standard Time, rbritt@HQ.SPACE.com writes:
Hi Richard:
I will be going into some of these issues. Your serious criticism of NASA
requires that I discuss your credentials as well. I just spoke with Ralph
Greenberg, who has analyzed some of your biographical claims that on your
web site. I've read them too, and indeed your web site clearly says that you
claim to have been the first to propose the Europa ideas. If you'd like to
respond to Greenberg's comments, feel free to e-mail me back.
Rob
Here is what Greenberg said to me:
"It's clear that [Hoagland] deserves no credit for proposing an ocean under
the ice on Europa." And regarding the notion of life: "Others before him
wrote on the same topic with more merit."
Greenberg says Hoagland deserves some credit for helping to popularize the
Europa ideas. But he is bothered that Hoagland does not make an effort to
clear the record.
"He never made it quite clear that this was not his original idea in any
sense," Greenberg said. "I think it's really shameful that he hasn't been
willing to make it crystal clear."
Rob,
OK, here's the real story behind Plait's current accusations
Greenberg is the source. It is his long-standing "Hoagland obsession" -- which has been going on for years, and can be characterized as nothing less -- that is a clear example of how far certain people are willing to go to smear our reputation and our work. This is a classic case of what I pointed out a couple days ago, about these baseless accusations being fundamentally "political"
I would hope, as a good reporter, you would prefer to rely on "primary sources" for your story -- as opposed to merely "hearsay" from third parties -- certainly third parties with an obvious political agenda. I would therefore strongly recommend that you begin by actually reading my original 1980 article, "The Europa Enigma" (on the Enterprise website -- http://www.enterprisemission.com/europa.html) -- which appeared in the January, 1980 issue of Star & Sky Magazine
In the entire article -- at no time -- do I take undue credit for the original idea of a potential ocean under Europa's icy surface. That is a skillfully spun fiction -- created specifically by our less than honest critics
What I actually do in this extensive paper is clearly credit Cassen, Peale and Reynolds -- who originated and published in Science Magazine the first tidal model for internal Jovian satellite heating, just before Voyager 1 arrived at Jupiter in early 1979. I clearly credit their original calculations regarding the possibility of tidal heating of Io
But, I also carefully cite their strong caveat (in the then just-published Science tidal paper) that, depending on certain "incalculable factors," such an originally liquid Europan ocean could have frozen solid in the 4.5 billion years of subsequent solar system history.
In other words, in their published model, there was a more than even chance that Europa's ocean now was no longer liquid -- but had become a 100 miles-deep glacier of solid ice! And, if this was the case, if such an original Europan ocean had ever frozen solid, their own tidal calculations in Science clearly stated it could never be unfrozen!
This is where the dishonest critics have carefully,
they re not using pr0n to spread their trojans...
-
From what I read on the Atari forum threads, Epic (the game makers) is pretty much against CD checks, but Atari (the game publishers) forces them to put it in.
-
for an isometric lightgun game! /got nuthin
-
"What I want is a blue tooth hands free kit that's small and comfortable enough to keep in your ear (and doesn't make you look like a 'tard, figuratively and literally) that has a very easy way to dock it seamlessly into your phone"
I would like to add that it HAS to look like Uhura's ear piece, otherwise I'm not buying it.
"So everyday you go to work you'll be potentially committing a sackable offence just to beat the system"
Most, if not all "no cellphone" policies are there to reduce the annoyance factor for the other employees, such as talking too loud because the signal is too low (as if that works), and annoying and/or loud ringtones.
So unless there's an interference problem caused by cellular radiation, I don't think that it would be a sackable offence to use a cellphone very discreetly. At worst, there would be a warning, first. I've never heard of people getting sacked outright without being warned first.
one of the mappers for the commercial release of UT2K4 referenced something of a social phenomenon in the AS-Junkyard map...
just look for the Goatse thread in the atari forums (and various weblogs), or fire up that map and see for yourself.
And people have noted how the map maker forgot the wedding ring on the, um, structure.
"the object is ~30kmmeters across"
not 30 kmmeters. 30 meters. I dont think this qualifies as a planet, compared to the approx 1700km diameter of Sedna...
are you a troll or what?
put your phone on silent mode, vibration on.
if you get a call on your cell, look at the callerID, and call the person back on your office phone.
if you dont have callerID, explain the situation briefly in your voicemail message and that you will immediately call back anyone who leaves their name and phone number.
take your voicemail messages from your office phone.
I tried the demo, and I didnt find the game very compelling as a MMOG, as there was little incentive to interact with other players.
It actually made me wonder why they didnt just make this into a single-player game.
"I'll believe it when I see it."
Alternatively, you could join the tinfoil hat crowd and...
you will see it when you believe it.
-
I knew this story seemed familiar...
/black_triangle_020805.html
check this out (illustrations and sidebars at space.com):
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technolo gy
Investigation Casts Light on the Mysterious Flying Black Triangle
By Leonard David
posted: 07:00 am ET
05 August 2002
They are big, black, and triangular. In UFO folklore they are proof-positive that planet Earth is a rest stop for joyriding, but road-weary, extraterrestrials.
A just released study by the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS), based in Las Vegas, Nevada, sheds new light on the dark and mysterious craft. They offer a more down-to-earth hypothesis.
NIDS researchers contend that these type vehicles are lighter-than-air, blimp-style craft of the U.S. military's making. Likely powered by "electrokinetic" drive, the lifting body-shaped airships have been skirting the skies from perhaps the early to mid 1980s.
Illinois sighting
NIDS has followed up on their study of last year that correlated sightings of large triangular or delta-shaped objects with Air Force Materiel Command and Air Mobility Command bases throughout the United States. Matches were made suggesting flight paths in and out of certain base locations.
The new assessment focuses on what four police officers, and more than a dozen others observed on January 5, 2000: A large, silent, low-flying black triangular shaped object. It flew on a southwesterly direction between Highland, Illinois and Dupo, located less than 30 miles (48 kilometers) from St. Louis, Missouri.
Part of the flight path took the enormous object near the perimeter of Scott Air Force Base.
NIDS does not come up with definite conclusion regarding the origin of the object sighted in Illinois.
However, the reports jibe with over 150 separate reports of sightings of large triangular or deltoid shaped objects. Those eyewitness accounts, accumulated by NIDS, have mainly come from the United States. A small number of the sightings they have on file come from Canada and Europe.
Ballooning expectations
To bolster their case about military airships being taken for UFOs, analysts at NIDS make a historical note.
Lighter-than-air vehicles held all records for payload, distance, duration, and altitude within the first four decades of the 20th century - even with the advent of the airplane. In fact, save for rocket-powered research aircraft, like the X-15 and the space shuttle, all absolute altitude records are still held by high-altitude scientific balloons.
NIDS makes the case that Big Black Deltas, or BBDs, are U.S. Defense Department airships. They are so large they can carry massive payloads at low altitudes, cruising at speeds three to five times as fast as surface ships.
Among a range of NIDS observations, the group believes the BBDs are powered by electrokinetic/field drives, or airborne nuclear power units. These craft also fly at extreme altitudes, high above conventional aircraft and the pulsing of ground-based traffic control radar.
Elecrokinetic propulsion means that no propellers or jets are used. A hybrid lighter-than-air craft would rely on aerostatic, lift gas, like a balloon. No helicopter-like downwash would be produced. Except for a slight humming from high-voltage control equipment -- and in older BBD versions an occasional coronal discharge -- a Big Black Delta makes no noise.
Given a slew of BBD capabilities -- from silent running, diminished drag, elimination of sonic shockwaves, to operation from ground level to full vacuum -- NIDS calls for pushing this black world technology out into daylight for commercial benefit.
Wheat from the chaff
"What we're trying to do is transform unidentified flying objects, UFOs, into IFOs, or identified flying objects," said Colm Kelleher, deputy administrator for NIDS.
"We want to limit the number of cases that are unidentified in our data bas
American Megacorporations may own American politicians, but you still have a choice in where you spend your money.
I read the article, but I havent visited Michael's PC website...
Sounds like he's either a former spammer, or a future one...
I'll let THW and you guys know if I ever get any spam for Michael's V!@gr4 CPU Thermal Grease...
-
Shouldn't that be "...you rode in in."
Figuratively speaking, yes. But I meant the "screw" part literally.
or does the Mozilla icon look like the Toronto Raptors' mascot?
I have a message for you:
Screw you and the trojan horse you rode in on.
-
"That and to have sex and multiply"
Please dont go 'round slashdot giving everyone false hopes!
But to get back to the point of the grandparent post, I think we can infer from our observations of Nature that we can do whatever we want to ourselves, this planet and others... provided that we understand that our actions will come back to haunt us (or not, you never know).
Colour me fatalistic, but one day, the Sun will go supernova and this planet's life will cease to exist as we know it, UNLESS we have built spaceborne Noah's Arks and colonized multiple solar systems. But then by your former date's logic, we shouldnt even bring life (us included) from Earth to other solar systems...
I view it this way, sooner or later, this ship we call Earth is going down. Are we going to go down with it or jump on the lifeboats?