"You own the box, you own the CD that came in the box, you own the papers in the box. You don't own the program, you are merely licensing it's use from MS under the terms they dictate."
It all seems a bit moot to me. If you try to install it on a VM, won't their "call home" trick prevent it from being fully unlocked? (or did I miss the memo that Vista did away with XP's protection scheme?)
"This would be very possible on the 360 if they could assure the 360 actually had a hard drive. Unfortunately, this assumption cannot be made due to the hard driveless 360s floating around out there. "
Umm... it's possible anyway.
if(HardDrivePresent() == 1) CacheGameData();
They don't need to assume anything, just use an if/then statement. Sorry, but some XBOX 360's lacking a hard drive aren't affecting the games like that. The only real damage they're doing is causing a developer to think about how the game works with and without a hard drive. (Even that point is silly, suppose the XBOX is out of storage space?)
"It was a pretty spectacular launch in most every respect, even if its initial games looked barely any better than their PS1 equivalent (took forever to design for it no thanks to Sony's awful devkits)."
I realize I wasn't all that clear originally, but I wasn't thinking of the entire launch, but rather the new big splendiferious games that make that console the one to own. The launch titles for the PS2 were far from exciting and left many people wondering why they spent so much money at launch. The PS2 was neat when it was launched, but I intended to be more specific than that.
"I guess adding "cellphone" to a design is just like adding "on the Internet" to a business plan."
Be thankful for that. "On a cellphone" means (erm.. in theory, I should point out) they wouldn't be able to go after Apple for making an iPod with a control interface a the top with the screen below. (There's lotsa other reasons they wouldn't be able to go after it, I wanted to use that on simplistic terms as an example.) The theory is that if you specify a narrow purpose for it, you won't be able to patent something that the entire market ends up having to license from you. Reality isn't quite in tune with that theory, shit still happens, but that's why 'on a cell phone' is patentable.
"The talk of Nintendo leading the way with gameplay and innovation?"
They succeeded.
"The talk of Nintendo embarrassing the other console makers with their boldness?"
They succeeded.
"Fast forward to today and what did the reality turn out to be?"
The Wii is a big hit. The game market has broadened as people from the older generation become gamers. PS3s are sitting on shelves while the Wii is still being camped out for.
"Like many other Wii owners, the Wii was a hit for a couple nights during the holidays when people were around the house. But now my Wii is sitting gathering dust these days."
Meanwhile, most of my coworkers who never really talked about gaming much before are now frequently talking about their experiences with the Wii. (Interestingly enough, there wasn't one system that nearly everybody in the office had until the Wii came out.) Others are using it to work out. New game announcements are news around the office. Perhaps I'm simply amongst a small niche of people that just happen to work at the same place because of some weird quirk of time and space.
"I could of just waited a little while and saved 200 bucks and just bought Zelda for my old GameCube."
This is the only saving grace of your post. "I should have waited a ways after launch", I respect that. Game consoles don't immediately hit their stride out the gate. (PS2, anyone?) I do wonder if you're over-analying what you have or over-weighing what you don't have, but I suppose I'm not in a position to cast stones. I had similar complaints about the PS2 at launch and look where it ended up.
"Aiming the bow (or boomeraing, or whatever else) is much, much, better with a pointer than with an analog stick."
Aint that the truth. Anybody who has ever played through San Andreas on the PS2 should be able to attest to this. I'm irritated at both Microsoft and Sony for not recognizing this shortcoming and addressing it in their new consoles.
"using a Wii only requires an investment of 250 USD. Plus tax. Plus Zelda (purely for scientific purposes)."
I doubt they'd even need that. There's an app called GlovePie that'll connect your Wii-remote to your PC via bluetooth. All you'd need is $40 for the controller and some R&D to decode the Bluetooth info.
"In the second grade, they taught us to make pipe bombs. Important tips like not buying the pipe and caps at the same hardware store, paying cash for everything, how to make detonators from flashbulbs and clothespins, and so forth. You really missed out!"
Good to know your generation will be prepared to fight SkyNet.
"There are already handhelds on the market (one from Sony and two from Nintendo, even the GBA still sells) that are more than capable of fending off an uninspired phone/console combo. People who play games probably want to do so on a dedicated gaming device, to avoid killing their phone's battery life."
This point of view comes up whenever there's a topic about a new gadget on a phone. The answer is very simple. I have a DS, PSP, GBA, and a digital camera. Most of the time, I ONLY have my phone on me. When I'm at work, or shopping, or eating out, I don't carry all those other things with me. Sometimes, though, I find myself in a position where I could really use one of those devices but they're not on me. Just the other day I was at Best Buy and I decided I was on the market for a new digital camera. So, I went around, saw what they had, and I used my phone to take pictures of all the cameras at the store that interested me. I'm going to go through the images, pull out the camera models, and do a comparison review. The camera in the phone was more than sufficient for that. I wouldn't use it for the tourism photos I like taking, but for informational purposes, it was great. Last week the network was out and it totally killed my ability to do any real work. So I played Indiana Jones on my phone. (SCUMM is cool.) I'd rather have played Liberty City Stories, but I don't often have my PSP at work. (not that I'd want to be seen playing it anyway.) I've got plenty more examples, but I hope the idea's becoming clear. The gadgets I've had on all my phones have become useful in some form or another. Heck, I even use it as a back-up alarm clock.
Yes, the battery issue one is a significant one. But to be honest, I just let it charge while I'm asleep. As long as I'm getting my use out of it, it really isn't that huge of inconvenience. If my phone were just a phone, it wouldn't be as useful.
"I guess on the plus side it couldn't suck as badly as the original N-Gage, they must have learned something from the horrible control layout and weak graphics capability. Good luck to them, and let's hope for a solid implementation."
Despite what I said, I do agree with your assessment of the new N-Gage. Though it's great to have additional features in a phone, it's hard to run out and buy a game-specific phone. I appreciate what Nokia's doing, but honestly, I'd be far more interested in a GBA being built into a phone. I have zero confidence in an interesting number of games built specifically for the phone being developed. I think an MP3 phone would be great, but a game phone? Eh... Maybe I'm a fuddy duddy.
"Apparently there is much more talent around than previously thought?"
Yes and no. From what I understand, they have their work flow set up sort of like an assembly line. A bunch of people work on very small chunks of the project. It's boiled down to a point that not a lot of 'talent' is needed so much as a pair of hands to work the mouse.
That's probably a gross over-simplification, but to me that sorta makes sense now. The work load is distributed to a LOT of people and there's more predictability and less error. Not the most fulfilling job I can think of, though. I've had several people tell me they'd never want to do that again.
"I suppose they were counting on the "cool factor"."
That goes for artists, too. Ever since Star Wars, ILM and Lucasfilm have inspired a lot of people to get into the industry. The first place the apply to is ILM. My guess is they've got so many applicants just yearning to do something on a high-profile movie that they can get away with low wages. (or at least 'low' relative to the cost of living there...) I honestly don't know the people there actually manage to work there and stay afloat. I've heard stories of four to five people sharing a place and still having trouble scraping by. I personally think that if they're going to do that they should locate themselves somewhere where they don't have such ridiculous living expenses. But, as long as it's working, I don't see that happening.
I dunno, this whole topic is sad for me. I'm at a stage now where ILM would consider hiring me, but I'd probably have to turn it down for the same reason you did. I've heard this same story several times now. It really makes me wonder how much talent they've let slip through their fingers. It also makes me wonder how they actually manage to pull these projects off.
"It did have a couple good games, but it was a complete flop. Why? It cost 600 bucks, and no one I know ever had one. It had a lot of power under the hood, but the price point was way too high. And now Sony is at the same price point. "
a.) $600 when the NG was out was actually a lot more money than it is today.
b.) The games were >$140 apiece.
c.) The Neo Geo was aimed at a niche market. The hardware, games, and prices reflected that.
I'm not saying Sony won't fail or anything like that, I'm just pointing out the problems with that particular rationale. Yes, Sony's price is too high. No, it's not the same as the Neo Geo.
Incidentally, the Neo Geo wasn't a 'failure'. Its target market was significantly smaller than Sony's.
"Because digital IP is effortlessly copied, the ones who make the effort to produce such, have to take steps to prevent people from stealing it in the same way that merchants make efforts to prevent shoplifting. These efforts cost money and this is reflected in the prices."
The difference between the merchant who uses security cameras and a software company that uses copy restriction is that they protect the store, not the items. The most intrusive scheme you're going to see is that they put some plastic doohickey around the item that has to be removed before you leave the store. If that electric shaver you bought refused to work when you loaned it to a friend, then we'd be able to use this example in a discussion.
In the mean time, these efforts to 'protect' the work are causing increased demand for the pirated copies. When your copy of XP decides your computer has changed too much to be used, suddenly a cracked version of XP is interesting to you. For some oddball reason, this is considered piracy. (It's not THEFT, but that's a different argument.) Microsoft is, in essence, making illegit copies of the software more valuable. In their attempt to secure purchases, they're feeding the enemy.
This is not a smart way to go about it. If their price is so high that the market starts seeking other means to acquire it, that's not solvable by making the software un-copyable. If they were operating in a traditional enoconomy, they'd see fewer sales, so they'd lower the price. Simple supply and demand.
Basic economics doesn't go flying out the window just because of some ridiculous theory that everybody who downloads a cracked copy had originally intended to spend $99.
"I might be the most anti-DRM/anti-Intellectual Property person around here, but this argument that a company should lower its prices to discourage stealing is ridiculous. You're saying that because Rolex charges $5k for a watch, then it's OK to steal one."
Unfortunately the argument is not as simple as that. The 'protection' put in place hurts the legitimate customer. Imagine if said Rolex decided to stop working because for reasons unknown to you it no longer saw you as its rightful owner. You paid $5k for this new Rolex and the older models never had this functionality before. Then, the line they feed you is "It's to keep prices down!" What are you going to say besides "Really? The price is the same as it has always been!" ?? The result is that stolen Rolexes with that feature removed are going to go up in demand.
Microsoft wants to combat piracy, right? How's that supposed to work if Windows becomes a bigger annoyance to those that paid for it? There's no justification of 'stealing' here, it's about Microsoft handling this in an unproductive way.
"Right. So Sprint's network is going down every day because of some poorly written application on my Treo? This kind of absurd argument merely clouds the issues."
Actually... Sprint auto-updated a bunch of Fusic phones with new BIOS updates and they ended up bricked. True, that's not the same as 3rd party apps breaking, but it is an instance of a software f'up breaking lots of phones. Sprint, in particular, learned this lesson 3 months ago.
"Expect a ton of "My ugly old phone does everything the iPhone does! Sure, it actually doesn't have a full web browser, touchscreen, random access voicemail, virtual keyboard, iPod functionality with dock connector, etc. etc. etc. But it still does everything!"
Slashdot Mirror
"You own the box, you own the CD that came in the box, you own the papers in the box. You don't own the program, you are merely licensing it's use from MS under the terms they dictate."
It all seems a bit moot to me. If you try to install it on a VM, won't their "call home" trick prevent it from being fully unlocked? (or did I miss the memo that Vista did away with XP's protection scheme?)
"This would be very possible on the 360 if they could assure the 360 actually had a hard drive. Unfortunately, this assumption cannot be made due to the hard driveless 360s floating around out there. "
Umm... it's possible anyway.
if(HardDrivePresent() == 1) CacheGameData();
They don't need to assume anything, just use an if/then statement. Sorry, but some XBOX 360's lacking a hard drive aren't affecting the games like that. The only real damage they're doing is causing a developer to think about how the game works with and without a hard drive. (Even that point is silly, suppose the XBOX is out of storage space?)
This is such a non-issue.
"It was a pretty spectacular launch in most every respect, even if its initial games looked barely any better than their PS1 equivalent (took forever to design for it no thanks to Sony's awful devkits)."
I realize I wasn't all that clear originally, but I wasn't thinking of the entire launch, but rather the new big splendiferious games that make that console the one to own. The launch titles for the PS2 were far from exciting and left many people wondering why they spent so much money at launch. The PS2 was neat when it was launched, but I intended to be more specific than that.
"I guess adding "cellphone" to a design is just like adding "on the Internet" to a business plan."
Be thankful for that. "On a cellphone" means (erm.. in theory, I should point out) they wouldn't be able to go after Apple for making an iPod with a control interface a the top with the screen below. (There's lotsa other reasons they wouldn't be able to go after it, I wanted to use that on simplistic terms as an example.) The theory is that if you specify a narrow purpose for it, you won't be able to patent something that the entire market ends up having to license from you. Reality isn't quite in tune with that theory, shit still happens, but that's why 'on a cell phone' is patentable.
"The talk of Nintendo leading the way with gameplay and innovation?"
They succeeded.
"The talk of Nintendo embarrassing the other console makers with their boldness?"
They succeeded.
"Fast forward to today and what did the reality turn out to be?"
The Wii is a big hit. The game market has broadened as people from the older generation become gamers. PS3s are sitting on shelves while the Wii is still being camped out for.
"Like many other Wii owners, the Wii was a hit for a couple nights during the holidays when people were around the house. But now my Wii is sitting gathering dust these days."
Meanwhile, most of my coworkers who never really talked about gaming much before are now frequently talking about their experiences with the Wii. (Interestingly enough, there wasn't one system that nearly everybody in the office had until the Wii came out.) Others are using it to work out. New game announcements are news around the office. Perhaps I'm simply amongst a small niche of people that just happen to work at the same place because of some weird quirk of time and space.
"I could of just waited a little while and saved 200 bucks and just bought Zelda for my old GameCube."
This is the only saving grace of your post. "I should have waited a ways after launch", I respect that. Game consoles don't immediately hit their stride out the gate. (PS2, anyone?) I do wonder if you're over-analying what you have or over-weighing what you don't have, but I suppose I'm not in a position to cast stones. I had similar complaints about the PS2 at launch and look where it ended up.
"Aiming the bow (or boomeraing, or whatever else) is much, much, better with a pointer than with an analog stick."
Aint that the truth. Anybody who has ever played through San Andreas on the PS2 should be able to attest to this. I'm irritated at both Microsoft and Sony for not recognizing this shortcoming and addressing it in their new consoles.
"Already saw it a week ago on Engadget."
That's really fascinating. BTW, have you ever looked into how Slashdot gets its stories? I'll give you a hint, they don't have any reporters.
"using a Wii only requires an investment of 250 USD. Plus tax. Plus Zelda (purely for scientific purposes)."
I doubt they'd even need that. There's an app called GlovePie that'll connect your Wii-remote to your PC via bluetooth. All you'd need is $40 for the controller and some R&D to decode the Bluetooth info.
"In the second grade, they taught us to make pipe bombs. Important tips like not buying the pipe and caps at the same hardware store, paying cash for everything, how to make detonators from flashbulbs and clothespins, and so forth. You really missed out!"
Good to know your generation will be prepared to fight SkyNet.
"That's really funny, because today's Macs ARE PCs."
It's not THAT funny, my PC isn't a Mac.
"There are already handhelds on the market (one from Sony and two from Nintendo, even the GBA still sells) that are more than capable of fending off an uninspired phone/console combo. People who play games probably want to do so on a dedicated gaming device, to avoid killing their phone's battery life."
This point of view comes up whenever there's a topic about a new gadget on a phone. The answer is very simple. I have a DS, PSP, GBA, and a digital camera. Most of the time, I ONLY have my phone on me. When I'm at work, or shopping, or eating out, I don't carry all those other things with me. Sometimes, though, I find myself in a position where I could really use one of those devices but they're not on me. Just the other day I was at Best Buy and I decided I was on the market for a new digital camera. So, I went around, saw what they had, and I used my phone to take pictures of all the cameras at the store that interested me. I'm going to go through the images, pull out the camera models, and do a comparison review. The camera in the phone was more than sufficient for that. I wouldn't use it for the tourism photos I like taking, but for informational purposes, it was great. Last week the network was out and it totally killed my ability to do any real work. So I played Indiana Jones on my phone. (SCUMM is cool.) I'd rather have played Liberty City Stories, but I don't often have my PSP at work. (not that I'd want to be seen playing it anyway.) I've got plenty more examples, but I hope the idea's becoming clear. The gadgets I've had on all my phones have become useful in some form or another. Heck, I even use it as a back-up alarm clock.
Yes, the battery issue one is a significant one. But to be honest, I just let it charge while I'm asleep. As long as I'm getting my use out of it, it really isn't that huge of inconvenience. If my phone were just a phone, it wouldn't be as useful.
"I guess on the plus side it couldn't suck as badly as the original N-Gage, they must have learned something from the horrible control layout and weak graphics capability. Good luck to them, and let's hope for a solid implementation."
Despite what I said, I do agree with your assessment of the new N-Gage. Though it's great to have additional features in a phone, it's hard to run out and buy a game-specific phone. I appreciate what Nokia's doing, but honestly, I'd be far more interested in a GBA being built into a phone. I have zero confidence in an interesting number of games built specifically for the phone being developed. I think an MP3 phone would be great, but a game phone? Eh... Maybe I'm a fuddy duddy.
"Apparently there is much more talent around than previously thought?"
Yes and no. From what I understand, they have their work flow set up sort of like an assembly line. A bunch of people work on very small chunks of the project. It's boiled down to a point that not a lot of 'talent' is needed so much as a pair of hands to work the mouse.
That's probably a gross over-simplification, but to me that sorta makes sense now. The work load is distributed to a LOT of people and there's more predictability and less error. Not the most fulfilling job I can think of, though. I've had several people tell me they'd never want to do that again.
"Yeah, don't they realize that the terrorists can just look for the fuzzy areas and point their weapons right there?"
They'd have to have pretty fancy weapons to pull that off effectively.
"In Japan, just about anything "sensitive" gets pixelated."
No kidding. That's why I stopped browsing Japanese porn.
"I suppose they were counting on the "cool factor"."
That goes for artists, too. Ever since Star Wars, ILM and Lucasfilm have inspired a lot of people to get into the industry. The first place the apply to is ILM. My guess is they've got so many applicants just yearning to do something on a high-profile movie that they can get away with low wages. (or at least 'low' relative to the cost of living there...) I honestly don't know the people there actually manage to work there and stay afloat. I've heard stories of four to five people sharing a place and still having trouble scraping by. I personally think that if they're going to do that they should locate themselves somewhere where they don't have such ridiculous living expenses. But, as long as it's working, I don't see that happening.
I dunno, this whole topic is sad for me. I'm at a stage now where ILM would consider hiring me, but I'd probably have to turn it down for the same reason you did. I've heard this same story several times now. It really makes me wonder how much talent they've let slip through their fingers. It also makes me wonder how they actually manage to pull these projects off.
"It did have a couple good games, but it was a complete flop. Why? It cost 600 bucks, and no one I know ever had one. It had a lot of power under the hood, but the price point was way too high. And now Sony is at the same price point. "
a.) $600 when the NG was out was actually a lot more money than it is today.
b.) The games were >$140 apiece.
c.) The Neo Geo was aimed at a niche market. The hardware, games, and prices reflected that.
I'm not saying Sony won't fail or anything like that, I'm just pointing out the problems with that particular rationale. Yes, Sony's price is too high. No, it's not the same as the Neo Geo.
Incidentally, the Neo Geo wasn't a 'failure'. Its target market was significantly smaller than Sony's.
"Note to moderators: it's insightful the first time, it's redundant the millionth time."
I, for one, welcome our redundant overlords!
(Pls don't mark me as foe, I'm just testing your theory.)
"Because digital IP is effortlessly copied, the ones who make the effort to produce such, have to take steps to prevent people from stealing it in the same way that merchants make efforts to prevent shoplifting. These efforts cost money and this is reflected in the prices."
The difference between the merchant who uses security cameras and a software company that uses copy restriction is that they protect the store, not the items. The most intrusive scheme you're going to see is that they put some plastic doohickey around the item that has to be removed before you leave the store. If that electric shaver you bought refused to work when you loaned it to a friend, then we'd be able to use this example in a discussion.
In the mean time, these efforts to 'protect' the work are causing increased demand for the pirated copies. When your copy of XP decides your computer has changed too much to be used, suddenly a cracked version of XP is interesting to you. For some oddball reason, this is considered piracy. (It's not THEFT, but that's a different argument.) Microsoft is, in essence, making illegit copies of the software more valuable. In their attempt to secure purchases, they're feeding the enemy.
This is not a smart way to go about it. If their price is so high that the market starts seeking other means to acquire it, that's not solvable by making the software un-copyable. If they were operating in a traditional enoconomy, they'd see fewer sales, so they'd lower the price. Simple supply and demand.
Basic economics doesn't go flying out the window just because of some ridiculous theory that everybody who downloads a cracked copy had originally intended to spend $99.
"I might be the most anti-DRM/anti-Intellectual Property person around here, but this argument that a company should lower its prices to discourage stealing is ridiculous. You're saying that because Rolex charges $5k for a watch, then it's OK to steal one."
Unfortunately the argument is not as simple as that. The 'protection' put in place hurts the legitimate customer. Imagine if said Rolex decided to stop working because for reasons unknown to you it no longer saw you as its rightful owner. You paid $5k for this new Rolex and the older models never had this functionality before. Then, the line they feed you is "It's to keep prices down!" What are you going to say besides "Really? The price is the same as it has always been!" ?? The result is that stolen Rolexes with that feature removed are going to go up in demand.
Microsoft wants to combat piracy, right? How's that supposed to work if Windows becomes a bigger annoyance to those that paid for it? There's no justification of 'stealing' here, it's about Microsoft handling this in an unproductive way.
"I wonder if it is possible to either temporarily or permanetly blind these cameras with a common laser you can buy?"
:P
I wonder if it's possible to do that without your picture being the last thing they see.
"Someone explain to me why Slashdot has so many people who are afraid to death of cameras?"
Call me cynical, but I think it's because when people say "I read 1984!!" they get the word Insightful next to their name.
When somebody asks... if you're a mod... you say... YES!
"Sony needs to worry less about shipping PS3s and worry more about selling the ones that are already out there."
Yeah.. they should take all the assembly workers at the factories and put them into marketing.
"Right. So Sprint's network is going down every day because of some poorly written application on my Treo? This kind of absurd argument merely clouds the issues."
Actually... Sprint auto-updated a bunch of Fusic phones with new BIOS updates and they ended up bricked. True, that's not the same as 3rd party apps breaking, but it is an instance of a software f'up breaking lots of phones. Sprint, in particular, learned this lesson 3 months ago.
"Expect a ton of "My ugly old phone does everything the iPhone does! Sure, it actually doesn't have a full web browser, touchscreen, random access voicemail, virtual keyboard, iPod functionality with dock connector, etc. etc. etc. But it still does everything!"
That include Treo owners?