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Correlation != causation. If that was the case, a 80,000 lb semi would be the safest vehicle in the world.

Additional weight adds momentum that has to be cancelled in the event of a crash. Minimize weight and you minimize the required stopping force. If everybody would stop driving land yachts, cars wouldn't burn so much fuel. I wonder how many of those additional accidents were caused by fat-ass SUVs that can't negotiate emergency conditions.

An early 90s Civic CRX HF gets over 50mpg and isn't a hybrid. Ford has a diesel car that gets 65 mpg, but can't sell in the US due to the bureaucratic shortsightedness of the EPA. Diesel pollution requirements are by volume and do *not* take efficiency into account. Frankly, it's stupid that a multi-ton utility vehicle can be approved, but something that uses ten times less fuel cannot. These pollution requirements are why we can't get a 230mpg Aptera diesel (prototype wasn't a hybrid either).

Not all American cars are crap. You just can't get them yet.

Yes and no. I believe plug-in hybrids are the best vehicle for the near future, but they are more of an incremental improvement, not a radical improvement over existing cars. (I am looking forward to eventually being able to buy a plug-in hybrid Aptera. Not just for the fuel economy, but also because it looks really fun to drive!)

These do exist.... well, sorta.

I think I'd feel safer commuting on the electric bike.

http://www.aptera.com/

I'd snap one of these up in a shot, if they ever become available and affordable.

Delays, delays, delays!

Aptera had designs for a diesel/electric hybrid, but had to drop it because (if I remember correctly) California calculates Diesel Emissions based on a per gallon basis rather than a per mile basis. The gasoline/electric aptera should get 130MPH on gasoline only ( the volt is 50MPG) and 96wHr/mile vs. the Volts 250wHr/mile. The Opel Flextreme should be a diesel hybrid on the Volt chassis/drivetrain.

The Aptera hybrid is better.
How does 130mpg without plugging in sound?
How does a $30,000 non-subsidized cost sound?
The electric-only version is supposed to cost $27,000.

http://www.aptera.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_2_Series

Does it get more MPG than the Aptera? Can it run on wind power? Electric? Can it run macos? Can it reduce traffic? Pollution? Well, I guess combustion-engine-generated raw power is waaay obsolete. Perhaps for aircraft or boats. If it were a wige small craft it would be nice.

Why, in seventy years, haven't we seen anything half as innovative in either design or efficiency come to market?

One word: Aptera

The real reason that we haven't seen innovation is that we have allowed the automobile industry to be structured in such a way that rewards huge, monolithic corporations rather than entrepreneurs. Why do we need huge dealer/distributor networks for cars, when everything else can be purchased over the web? Why do we have parts and service departments that only work on one brand of car? Why are all vehicles REQUIRED to have a catalytic converter, regardless of whether or not they could meet emissions standards without it? Why are safety standards to onerous and hard to meet? And finally, why do we allow companies to become "to big to fail" so that when the market clearly demonstrates their business model is flawed, the government "must" bail them out? (Chrysler in the 80's, GM and Chrysler again in 2009...) Fuck the monolithic corporations -- let them fail. Just pass laws forbidding the export of the failed companies assets outside the country, and another, more efficient company would rise from the ashes, replacing many of the lost jobs.

I remember maybe a year ago that aptera showed off their prototype which they rated at "330mpg." It's a plug-in hybrid that looks like it's straight out of a sci-fi movie, but it's still pretty cool and has the same drive concept as the Volt here. http://www.aptera.com/index.php

Chevrolet Volt (has a gas engine that works as a range-extender after the first 40 miles)
http://www.chevrolet.com/experience/fuel-solutions/electric/

Aptera (fully electric)
http://www.aptera.com/

I'm personally considering an Aptera as soon as they are available for sale near me.

Find a friend in California and buy an Aptera. Cost $27000, range 100+ miles. Availability - now taking orders, 3000+ purchased.

Tesla's business plan has always been to work their way down to an affordable car. They can only accomplish this by building some expensive ones first, because they don't have an outlet for large numbers of cars nor income from other lines to pay for the sunk costs of development.

If anything, we need to eliminate all subsidies and allow the major automakers to fail. Then we carve them up into smaller automakers, pat them on the back, and set them loose. This keeps them in business and in theory encourages innovation. GM is simply a balkanized tool of the status quo and it's incapable of turning a corner. The same is true of all of the major American and Japanese automakers. But if we are going to continue handing out money to failing automotive business models, we should certainly give some to Tesla motors in the hope that they can not fail to execute their business plan and after the luxury model, bring us a relatively affordable family car with a useful range.

This is just plain stupid. Look, Tesla wants to be "alternative" but in reality it's just a sportscar with an electrical motors and a shitload of batteries. That's their vision. What the hell is innovative about that? You use the similar amount of energy as any car, but now in electrical form. Whooptey doo. All it has going for it is eyecandy.

Aptera is much better. Mostly because they're actually affordable from the get go ($30k) and actually redefine an efficient car. All Tesla really does is offload the environmental footprint to the electric generation station, it doesn't aim to be all that much more efficient aerodynamically, going for the conventional look and along with that, similiar conventional all-around amount of power to push it. Aptera aims to be efficient overall (and the hybrids look to be rather usable). That's important when batteries are nasty things with chemicals/elements that need to be mined, Tesla' second weakness.

And the hybrid small gas engine feeding an electrical motor and batteries is time tested (diesel-electric trains) and makes more (environmental/economic) sense than batteries alone atm.

http://www.aptera.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_Motors

More importantly, they're losing aerodynamics.

Electric cars are quite cheap to make; the cost of parts and assembly is a fraction of what you'd actually pay for one. They technically cost less than regular gasoline cars, assuming you use quality parts for both. (I'm not talking about that $3000 car from India, obviously)

Right now electric cars are expensive because they're new; a lot of very smart people designing them have to be paid a decent wage, which drives their prices up a lot. If mass produced in the millions, their cost to manufacture might hit 4 digits.

We could also save a lot of money on our cars by paying the guys on the assembly lines less than $70/hr; but I digress... we're not India. ;)

Why? Because the Volt sucks. Not only will it be too expensive, it won't even be particularly energy efficient.

What should own that market segment instead? Something MUCH more promising, like, say, the Aptera 2e.
http://www.aptera.com/.

If you look right at the summary, you see that the vehicle's description includes front-wheel drive.

Now, the info on safety is a little sparse from my quick look at Aptera's website, with the faq saying "It will match other commuter vehicles". Faq here. Safety Here

They focus on force-redirection, composite body and airbags but nothing on traction or stability. It's not the speed of being thrown to the side of your car that hurts, it's the sudden stop. I mean, with that much acceleration, I'd worry at fishtailing or, like you said, having that rear tire blow out.

If you look right at the summary, you see that the vehicle's description includes front-wheel drive.

Now, the info on safety is a little sparse from my quick look at Aptera's website, with the faq saying "It will match other commuter vehicles". Faq here. Safety Here

They focus on force-redirection, composite body and airbags but nothing on traction or stability. It's not the speed of being thrown to the side of your car that hurts, it's the sudden stop. I mean, with that much acceleration, I'd worry at fishtailing or, like you said, having that rear tire blow out.

http://www.aptera.com/

Hm, that's actually a pretty neat look as far as I'm concerned. Govt. mandates, though, thats what created the SUV glut. Others have said it before with good reason. If you want better efficiency either reduce price controls on gasoline or use a gas tax instead.

All I see such a bill doing is create a short-term bump in car sales on the backs of taxpayers. Following that bump might be a slump, since it will only draw in the people who were going to go for a new car the next 2 or so years anyway.

I would much rather have the Fed just mandate higher mpg or give a 10k credit for buying an Aptera (hybrid version) to get that jumpstarted, so people can get over themselves and the slightly quirky look of the thing and just drive something that is really economical - not just something that's 5% better in mpg:
http://www.aptera.com/

Would you spend $25k+ on a 2 seater with the option for a gas backup? Get an Aptera.

My electric scooter uses LiFePo4 batteries. Cuts the overall weight by 20% and improves range+top speed compared to the (at this time) much cheaper VRLAs. It'll be nice when I can buy an Aptera with LiFePo4 batteries.

At $100,000 for a Tesla, I think Apteras ($30,000) or Zaps ($12,000) might be more economic choice. These people don't really need a performance company car.

You can also use inductive or capacitive charging. Just park the car over a "grid" on the floor of your garage, and you don't have to remember to plug the damn thing in! (You could do the same thing for your phone and MP3 player if you put it in the exact same place every night.) That being said, I'm convinced plug-in hybrid and not full-time electric is the way to go. I already own 2 hybrids, and I'm ready and willing to buy a plug-in hybrid just as soon as they make one available that I can afford. (I'm anxiously awaiting Aptera availability in my area.) Of course, few people will be buying new cars of any sort until we get off this economic roller-coaster we've been on lately.

> I can't wait until somebody finally gets around to making a full EV car that seats two with ABS and Airbags, PS, Heat and AC, even if it only goes 100 miles. If they can do it under $25k I'm there with cash in hand.

Done. http://www.aptera.com/

Actually it doesn't quite meet your price requirement -- it's $27k. Production has already started, but they're still ramping up to mass production levels.

I know you probably won't read this but I'll post anyway, from the FAQ:

Will you be able to accommodate tall drivers?

The Aptera will comfortably fit someone that is 6'1" and with minor seat pad adjustments you can be as tall as 6'5" and drive comfortably.

What is the seating and cargo space?

The Aptera has "two plus one" seating allowing plenty of room for driver and passenger while an infant seat (newborn to age three) can be located in the middle behind the front seating. There is enough storage space to fit 15 bags of groceries, two full-size golf club bags or even a couple of seven foot surf boards.

According to wiki the cargo space is 15.9 cubic feet. For comparison, the trunk space in a Camry is 15 cubic feet.

Not really, they will just have to sell it outside the state of California.
Orders are currently restricted by location.
Luckily, I have an acquaintance in CA with a truck.

>> -light, -safe, -cheap: Pick any two.

This is not really true: the aptera provides all three. The egg-shaped cab is extremely safe and light, the list price is around $20K, and it supposed to get 300mpg. It is also high off the ground to be a good height relative to the bumper of a high SUV or truck.

Personally I think fuel efficient cars can look cooler then normal cars. I love the way Aptera looks. Plus with the cash you save by spending less on fuel you can put more money into how your car looks.

Cars need to be lighter and more aerodynamic. The drag on a standard automobile is just ridiculous. Rear ends today are typically vertically flat! Who are these designers that aren't familiar with the teardrop shape?

Not sure if these have AC, but I'd buy one of these. http://www.aptera.com/

You're right - the Aptera Even has a design with solar panels on the car itself.

I think the major advantage is that you can clean a power plant much easier than every tailpipe out there. Now if we just started getting more nukes started, with fast breeder tech that reduced the waste drastically, it'd be even better.

For example, my Aptera is to use lithium phosphate batteries. A quick Google search yields the following website: http://www.aptera.com/. I'm assuming that's the source of the car you're referring to. Digging around in it a bit, I find the following:

What will be the battery life and cost replacement?

This depends largely on usage and if you have an "All Electric" or an "Electric Plug-in Hybrid" version of the Aptera. We will share these exact numbers when they become available closer to the start of Aptera production.

So your 10-20 year lifespan of the battery isn't documented on the website anywhere that I can find.

To its credit, Aptera does say its car will cost between $26,900 and $29,900. I wonder how much of that is subsidized, though. And paying $30K for a car that does 0-60 in 10 seconds, carries two passengers, and practically no cargo isn't exactly a screaming bargain. You'd be far better off buying a more conventional gas/electric hybrid like the ones currently available.

I also note on the Aptera site that the car isn't designed for cold climates. Availability is almost non-existent as well. Last, and perhaps most distressing, Aptera offers no warranty on the vehicle. Sure, they're working on something, but as of now you get nothing. Remind me again why anyone except the most die-hard tree hugger with deep pockets and no family would ever want to buy this thing?

Aptera is already pretty close. Their prototype is real and working and they're claiming a 300mpg rating with 2.5 seats, 3 wheels, and a hybrid electricity/gasoline model. They are building to California's standards so they will probably pass all other standards the US has.

The aptera already meets all this criteria....it gets 120 MPG without plugging it in, or you can charge it up at night and only use 1 gallon to go 350 miles...See: http://www.aptera.com/details.php for more detail.s

I would think the Aptera Hybrid is much further along than Tesla's offerings, it already gets 330MPG but it's only a 2 seater, and a 3 wheeler... They could probably made a less efficient 4 seat/4 wheel model and call it a day.

The thing I like about it the most is that rather than trying to shoehorn good aero design onto something that looks like a typical car and ending up with something very ugly, they just embraced good aero design and made something that looks nothing like a modern car and is very sexy because of it.

Autobloggreen has garnered a number of comments on this concept, most of them negative. To sum up:

* The thermodynamic efficiency of air cars is worse than gasoline engines, often far worse, meaning that you *hurt* the environment by driving it.
* The overwhelming majority of the performance of this vehicle comes from gasoline, not air
* The company has a very bad reputation of making ludicrous claims and misrepresenting stats
* It's made by Indian manufacturer Tata motors, not known for quality

In short, don't bother. If you want an affordable (100 mile range without burning any gasoline, that will be on the road in a year or two, there are really three good options I can think of off the top of my head right now: the Aptera, the VentureOne, and the MiEV. The Aptera is for if you want the absolute limit in energy efficiency modern tech can currently provide and want to look like you're driving a spaceship, the VentureOne is for if you want to feel like you're driving a motorcycle, and the MiEV is for if you have more than two people. I've probably missed a couple other good options, I'm sure.

To potential EV buyers: keep an eye out for scammers. Two big ones are LionEV and Spark EV.
To potential hydrogen car buyers: hydrogen cars are worse for the environment than gasoline cars, so don't bother.

Or how about an example of technology we can use *already*, inspired by Space Ship One. A VW Bug without wings: http://www.aptera.com/

The Typ-1h is a plug-in hybrid, and Aptera's numbers are starting with a full wall charge. Their own site (click on "Performance") admits that the actual long-run mileage "after 350-400 miles" "eventually plummets to around 130 mpg at highway speeds where it will stay all day until you plug it back in and charge it up". The 300 mpg figure, from their chart, looks like it's for a 100-mile trip after a wall charge. A 50-mile trip after a wall charge is 1000 mpg, so we could quote that too, but neither is total energy usage, whereas 130 mpg is (still impressive, but not 300).

The above responses, I think, are over-complicating the assessment. The calculation should be as simple as work performed/energy consumed. There's probably an official reference somewhere, but I quickly found this page mentioning 125,000,000 joules in a gallon of fuel.

This page on the Powertrain & Energy tab says that the 10e (electric model) uses a 10Kwh battery pack.

1 joule is 1 watt/second. So we take 10,000 watt-hours, multiply by 3600 (# seconds per hour) to get 36,000,000 joules total energy put in. So.... if a gallon of fuel is 125,000,000 joules, then we charged up with the equivalent energy of 0.288 gallons of fuel.

With a total range of 120 miles on 0.288 gallons of fuel it comes out to 428MPG. This is inexact obviously; I don't see what they're claiming for MPG on the electric model (though I'm sure it's less), but any difference could be accounted for in losses and/or margins of error such as actual versus listed capacity of the storage pack. If, for example, the battery pack actually holds 11Kwh instead of 10Kwh, the number drops to 378MPG. The point is that this CAN be calculated in terms of equivalency to gasoline based on the amount of potential energy in a gallon of gas.

That's the best I can come up with imperically off the top of my head. I'm without a doubt though that using the price of fuel versus the price of electricity to make this determination is not the way to go.

That the manufacturer knows the cost and efficiency but not the top speed or turning radius of the vehicle.

Just making an observation.

That the manufacturer knows the cost and efficiency but not the top speed or turning radius of the vehicle.

Just making an observation.

That the manufacturer knows the cost and efficiency but not the top speed or turning radius of the vehicle.

Just making an observation.

That the manufacturer knows the cost and efficiency but not the top speed or turning radius of the vehicle.

Just making an observation.

From the FAQ http://www.aptera.com/ask.php

What is the seating and cargo space?

The Aptera has "two plus one" seating allowing plenty of room for driver and passenger while an infant seat (newborn to age three) can be located in the middle behind the front seating. There is enough storage space to fit 15 bags of groceries, two full-size golf club bags or even a couple of seven foot surf boards.

...we get off our asses and start making commercially viable electric cars.

...we get off our asses and start making commercially viable electric cars.