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And lets not forget the Gutenberg Bible, with all those fluffy birds and decorations, who's supposed to concentrate on reading the text?

Literacy was declining long before moveable type. How can you expect people to concentrate on their prayers when they get distracted by flashy illuminations http://www.christusrex.org/www2/berry/ some of them quite lurid http://www.christusrex.org/www2/berry/DB-f25v-d2l.jpg ?

And lets not forget the Gutenberg Bible, with all those fluffy birds and decorations, who's supposed to concentrate on reading the text?

Literacy was declining long before moveable type. How can you expect people to concentrate on their prayers when they get distracted by flashy illuminations http://www.christusrex.org/www2/berry/ some of them quite lurid http://www.christusrex.org/www2/berry/DB-f25v-d2l.jpg ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/4/newsid_2496000/2496277.stm

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/sdc/tiananmen.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGJoaHr2QdM

Interestingly, about 3 months ago I could look at the Tianamen Square Protests Wikipedia page, but now I can't. Of course, the Tianamen Square page that IS available lists a good summary, and as you can see there's other protest links available.

China's a LOT less restrictive than some are making it out to be...

But only if they are wrong. But science can't tell them that they are wrong. I referred to Karl Popper before because his position, as a philosopher of science, demonstrates that. He is the guy who switched everyone over to falsifiability. In other words : science doesn't give us facts or proof of anything. If you accept Popper, which by far the majority do, then science can not prove the existence or non-existence of anything, let alone God.

In the meantime the religious claim to have revelation from God himself. If you want proof then you can't really do better than relevation from God, eh? Even better, he unites to us individually, which means that proof is not an external 'vision' that could be dismissed as hullucination. The atheists keep telling us how stupid we are, but many, if not most, of us have direct experience of God (including me). It's why so many of us are faithful to our bibles even despite pressures to stop believing. If you look at the technical definition of faith then you really can't argue that a religious person is stupid :

"Faith : assent to Divinely revealed truth."

For the Catholic Church's position spelled out see here (direct official Catholic teaching - look at part II), more of an accent on 'trust' than the anglican quote above. I think you'll agree that this is quite different from the "Leap of Faith" idea that has become prevalent among uneducated christians. It's a pollution that seems to come from Pascal and Kierkegaard. We don't believe because we just decide to make that irrational 'leap', but because God has revealed it to us individually. In other words : logically a religious person is totally rational. (Of course discounting those who do not have authentic belief - of which I reckon there are very many).

"The point is, other people appear to have made it up."

For me, and probably many other believers, God has directly witnessed to the truth of the Bible. As a child I took it on trust from adults, but as an adult it was God who confirmed it (perhaps as a result of the effort of my prayers). Your objections are probably valid but not if God is revealing stuff to us individually and directly. Even the protestants go on about having a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ". Since Jesus is God then obviously that personal relationship is likely to involve divinely revealed truth and the act of 'assenting' to it.

So now we have the people that we put into office trying to step on the rights of companies like Google to succeed in business. We voted in people who have betrayed our trust. Instead of applauding these successful companies for their large profits and the wealth they bring to our country, they instead trample their right to profit in the name of some illusory moral concerns. If we, as a nation, had any balls we'd be voting these bufoons out of office before they start taking our guns away and throwing us in gulags.

I would agree with you. A naked body, in an of itself, is nothing but a naked body. In the case of art, many times it's admiring the human form - whether we're discussing the classical greek form, or finding beauty in a not-so-idealize example of the human race.

With that said, however, when a naked body moves into the realm of sex, it moves into something that is, and should be, private and intimate. Even aside from that, a 10 year old watching Cum Guzzling Gutter Sluts 4: Cum Garglers is probably about as appropriate as...well... honestly, that's probably one of the more non-violent inappropriate things ever.

There's a huge difference between admiring and respecting the human body and using the human body to elicit erotic reactions. Sex isn't bad, and it shouldn't be seen as being bad, but it should be seen as being intimate. Something done in relative privacy. Not something we all need to be seeing all the time. If we want to seek it out, as adults, then fine, that is our perogative. Showing that stuff on broadcast TV, for example, should be pretty much out of the question. That applies to the internet as well.

But to say that nudity, in all its forms, is wrong...well...that, to me, is much more offensive than a cooch ever could be. I don't cringe when I see a boob, a puss, or a wang. I'd much rather the first two, but I'm not going to die (and my morals aren't going to self-destruct and send me on a homicidal rampage either) if I see the latter. We, as a society, hide the human body and promote the idea that being unclothed is an atrocity to the point that it's truly an exercise in self-loathing. That's not healthy for the individual or the society. Erotic nudity should be restricted to mature adults - I agree. But non-sexual nudity should be an accepted part of our culture. And for those of you who may say that all nudity is sexual - when looking at the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, do you form a tent in your pants? Is the first thing you think "woo! boobies! it's time to fuck!" Because, if so, it's possible you have some psychological problems that need to be attended to.

Continuity has never been a particularly strong priority amongst the script editors at the Catholic Church. A lot of people are still pretty bummed about the 1965 relaunch of the franchise. People are often upset whenever anybody does something that could negatively impact the market for collectibles .

The Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward were abominable, but China is not as bad as that now.

This image says everything I need to about China not being "as bad as that" these days.

As for what happened to the American Indians, I agree with you--it was a terrible thing, and our hands are most certainly not spotlessly clean. However, we are discussing the present state of affairs--the US is no longer hunting Indian tribes to extinction, and we as a nation would not tolerate our government engaging in a similar act today. Contrast this with China's current policies in Tibet.

Given the PRC government's (not to be confused with the legitimate government of the Republic of China in exile in Taipei) methods for dealing the the people demanding anything, I don't think that's too likely.

And why would we want to talk about the reality here in the US when it's so much easier to just march lockstep with the rest of the sheep.

What the hell are you talking about? How has your life changed since the introduction of the Patriot ACT? I'm not a big fan but it hasn't stopped me from going to the library or voicing my opinion on anything. Do you REALLY think you have to live off the grid and hide from police??

I LOVE /.

I blame Dubya for 9/11.
But I oppose anything he does to prevent another terrorist attack.

New York is not treating the protesters fairly.
China is Communist, therefore noware near as evil as the US. *cough* tiananmen square *cough*

Bush - "If I knew back then what I know now, I would've still made the decision to invade Iraq." - He's a hate-mongering dictator!!
Kerry - "If I knew back then what I know now, I still would've authorized the use of force against Iraq." - He's our man!!

While I'm burning Karma - Howard Dean lost the election when he told a Iowa citizen that "George Bush is NOT my neighbor.", telling the guy to sit down and shut up a few moments later probably didn't help either. Most Democrats don't have a blind hatred for the guy like some people seem to have. Most of my friends are Democrats and don't like dubya, but they understand he's not some religous crusader trying to take over the world.

Celebrity Activism - Hmmm, Papa Roach is going to vote for X, maybe I should too.

What would your suggestion be? To gather in numbers in an attempt to reasonable and peaceably express the youth's desire for greater freedom's in the areas of knowledge and communication? Perhaps demand a democratic state?

Oh wait, they tried that already.

"...give me 1 REASON , WHY Should I care in the least about censorship in China ?

The real question is which are they? One mans' terrorist is another mans' freedom fighter.

I don't think most liberals deny the existence of evil; rather, I think they see evil in places where you don't. Like here here , here, and here. Of course, there is also this.

Evil is all too common; don't turn a blind eye to the evil which you find convenient.

You might have a problem, but there are plenty of people who don't, including this guy, who I belive has some theological training. Summary of his speach

China is the new America.

Really?

http://iso.hrichina.org/iso/
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/sdc/hr_facts.html
http://www.derechos.org/human-rights/nasia/china/
http://www.hrw.org/asia/china.php

Or you could listen to the Chinese government propaganda...
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/zhuanti/Zhuanti_ 29.html

You can easily see the likeness to the Vatican library as depicted here, not to mention many others including the Escorial and Laurentian libraries.

Right here!!!

"China is only communist by name. "

I love it. Every time the Commie argument comes up on Slashdot you get some bozo saying "China is bad, but they are not communist, real communism has never been tried, blah blah blah, Capitalism is evil, blah blah blah, I hate corporations, blah blah blah.

It gets old.
Tiananmen, April-June 1989

"don't necessarily promote these idealogies; they are merely acknowledging their controversial nature."

Does that make it somehow less evil???

Tiananmen, April-June 1989

I hope so, but somehow I get the feeling their gov't will prevent that from happening...
Tiananmen, April-June 1989

I seem to recall when Chinese students tried to revolt, and their oppresive Communist/Dictatorshop government ran them over with tanks. Yeah, a revolt will work very well.

Tiananmen, April-June 1989

That being said, I have to admit that I don't "get" most "post-modern" art either, and suspect that most of it is pretensious crap. But I understand enough to know I'm too ignorant of the ideas involved to really have a useful opinion.

Yeah...why, just the other day, a friend of mine was "censored" when the army came and took him away for publically speaking out against the government. Later, there was a report on the news that he was to be imprisoned, tortured, and shot.

He was part of a rally in Times Square, and they arrested him. Sucks that we live in a country without peaceable assembly.

Wait...I think it was actually someone I didn't know who was killed in Tiananmen square for a pro-democracy demonstration.

I think I got it straight now. The US is NOTHING like China when it comes to censorship. We don't imprison and kill people because we don't like what they say. We certainly don't use full force; on the contrary, our main censorship punishment is fines, or at the very most, a minimum security prison sentence. Of course, you have to consider that we are not trying to censor, our goal is to avoid copyright violations. You can say anything you want, as long as it isn't libel (untrue statement of FACTS - all opinions are allowed).

Don't belittle our freedom or China's suffering by such a comparison.

china is fucking evil. don't let their ready supply of low-wage workers fool ya. the world refuses to admit the atrocities that occur there because a) they've got lots of money, b) they can make your product CHEAP!, and c) their birthrate currently provides them with 10,000 males per day, wwhich makes for quite a mandatory service army.

> So let me get this straight - you think I have been brainwashed by watching TV but you know the truth.
> May I ask where you learned this truth? Was it from TV? Was it from a newspaper? Do you honestly think
> the press in your country is fair and impartial but the press in mine isn't? It sounds like you have been brainwashed.


> May I ask where you learned this truth?

Sure! I read around. I went to a library, I read some history books. I spoke to people living in countries
like Israel over the net. I had the fortune to speak to a holidaying Isralie in person on New Year's.
He didn't have a good thing to say about the US. He was happy the towers fell like a cheap tent.
For the record he didn't like Palestinians, or the war between the two Races.
And yes, he'd served time in the military.

> It sounds like you have been brainwashed.

Yet I'm the one who's got something to say apart from "Kill terrorists, the US rocks, if you disagree you're obviously
wrong!"


> Where exactly are you talking about? Saudi Arabia?
> Do you think we erected any bases without permission?

I'll concede here. I couldn' find out much about US military bases in the 20 mins I spent looking.
My personal opinion, however, is that your military presence in many countries is unwelcome and resented by the common
populace.



>No, I don't we are innocent. But I do think that we try to be good.
> What separates me from you is that I actually vote for people who I think
> will make the right decisions in my name regarding our relations with other countries.

LOL. I'm 20 and I've voted in about 6 elections all up, 1 of them a federal election another 1 a by-election.
I feel I voted for the most responsible candidate, that's what elections are (technically) about.
Contrary to popular belief, the US isn't the only country on the planet to have democratic elections.
Hell, isn't it true that 25% of your citizens vote in elections ? Over here, (Australia) it's compulsary.

What seperates you and I is blind Nationalism.


> I know it doesn't always work but what else can I do?
> The point is I try to do the right thing.

Agreed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you, yourself do a thing, apart from vote every now and then.
You could give blood, you could give money, or join the Red Cross or some other charity organisation.
Odds are you've got a job and a life though, which rules these out. In that case you could educate yourself
and your friends on *why this all happened in the first place*.

> The terrorists on 911 did the opposite - the tried to kill innocent people.
> Doesn't that make any sense to you?

Does it make sense to me ? Yes it does. Those people were not innocent of electing governments.
Governments who,by their actions brought this upon themselves and their citizens. Why was the US attacked
and not (not so great) Britan, Iraq, Canada or some other country. Consider that.

They may be extremists and Terrorists, but the world works on cause and effect.
That they use brutal, 'underhand' tactics is part of terror warfare, they don't have large organised armies to
mount an assault with.

> What would you suggest we do in response???

Hold an international summit on US foreign policy ? Oh that's right, you're above peer review.
Rooting out and destroying the Taliban was logical. Now there are wars in the Israel area which you support.
Making an effort to solve these problems beyond 'killing all threats to US citizens' might help too.
Stop screwing over so many countries, weather this be through trade sanctions, supplying arms or whatever else.


>I definitely think you are the one who is brainwashed.
Keep telling yourself that mate :o) In the meantime, get an education.

General Links
Why is America Hated in the Middle East?
ATTACK ON AMERICA: AN ISLAMIC PERSPECTIVE (Professor Ali Khan,Washburn University School of Law)
The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers


-- Human Rights Links --
U.S Foreign Policy and Human Rights
Organization of American States human rights panel opposes Bush policy on POWs
Human Rights Watch.
Human Rights and the Drug war.
Afghan prisoners arrive in Cuba
Amnesty International USA

In the same line as this quote, it's interesting to note the Dutch produced such painters as Van Gogh and Rembrandt and M.C. Escher

Albeit the dutch also had plenty of wars, conflicts, and even pirates, both in the true, historical sense and in the modern sense of the word.

So, in context, were the patent laws a major factor in each countries development?

The Chinese government would use this technology in ways that would benefit everyone.

Yep, nothing happened, nobody was killed, it's all just a big lie, right?

--
Benjamin Coates

Actually, Powers was downed by an *UNARMED* Sukhoi SU-9, *BECAUSE* it was unarmed. No air-to-air missiles or gun turrets mounted yet. The SU-9 was being flown from the factory to its first posting. See
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/news/10-96/ew10-12 -96.html

The SU-9 had been ordered to ram the U2 if necessary. However, flying past the glorified glider (which the U2 really was) at mach 2 was sufficient to break the U2's wings, at which point it disintegrated. The weird part is that if it was weighed down with its regular complement of armament, plus the air drag from wing-mounted missiles, the SU-9 might never have gotten close enough to shoot down the U2. Russia claimed that it was a SAM that brought down the U2, and US intelligence never caught on.

thk writes "Sistina, the main developer of the Global File System, has changed its language from C to SPL (Shakespeare Programming Language). SPL is basically a language to make the source code for programs written with it, resemble a Shakespeare play. Interestingly, the change came just after beta testing, leaving some users a bit miffed. The GFS is an important component of some GPL clustering projects, such as Compaq's SSIC project. The Sistina press release is here."

2. You assume people get shot for trying to circumvent it. (?!!?!) That is just ridiculous.

Gee, where would I ever get the ridiculous idea that the Chinese government would shoot their own people for excercising their right to speak freely?

Don't take us Americans for dumber than we look. Some of us don't suck the dicks of our corporations as much as the PRC would hope.

ObJectBridge (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.

What the students should do is protest,

Cast your mind back to June 4th 1989.

Caution: the above link may cause some people distress.

Damn good thing, that. Mao's "Great Leap Forward" caused the biggest famine in human history; he presided over a laogai system which claimed well over 10 million lives; and his "Cultural Revolution" also murdered over 10 million people. Moreover he helped instigate the death and enslavement of millions of Koreans in order to expand communism's influence. Tens of millions fled in desparation to Hong Kong, Taiwan, Malaysia, and even the US. Good riddance to the bloodiest tyrant ever, Mao Tse-Tung.

The capitalist roaders in the party that Mao called upon the masses to overthrow did exactly as he warned they would when they came to power (after his death in 1976)

Yeah, they put a lid on all the dying and suffering, and the living standard in China is finally rising steadily now that they're somewhat less communist.

In light of the tens of millions of victims of Chinese communism, I declare that you, P30P73Z-H4X0R are one sick and twisted individual for defending history's most prolific[*]mass murderer, Mao. You are a complete shame an d disgrace.

(It's not a flame if it's completely true.)

[*] or possibly the second most prolific mass murderer.

--

Go do a Google search on China and human rights abuses. Or go read the State Department's report on human rights violations.Go read about how they've jailed four university professors in the past three months, including three with US citizenship or residency, for no crime greater than spreading ideas against the state. They also jailed for a month the husband and 5 year old son of one of the academics, failing to inform the US that they had done so, even though both of these people are US Citizens! (This is a major violation of international law.)

Read about how they brutally suppress religions, including everything from Falun Gong to Christianity. Read about what they've done in Tibet. Not expansionist? Read about how they backed the establishments of Communist governments in Korea and Vietnam, and how they want to take back Taiwan after 50 years of independence.

Read about the silencing of free speach in Hong Kong, the crushing of student demonstrators in Tienanmen square, the censorship of the Internet throughout China, the control and manipulation of public opinion through their state news agencies.

Go read all that, and then tell me that you welcome China.

While I agree that people should stop bashing China so much, I have to point out that the Tiananmen Square massacre WAS as bad as it was portrayed.
If you don't believe that people were killed, just take a look at these pictures, especially the page with photos of the massacre.
Warning: These pictures can be quite graphic and disturbing.

While I agree that people should stop bashing China so much, I have to point out that the Tiananmen Square massacre WAS as bad as it was portrayed.
If you don't believe that people were killed, just take a look at these pictures, especially the page with photos of the massacre.
Warning: These pictures can be quite graphic and disturbing.