China Plans Manned Space Flight October 15

epmos writes "As previously reported on /., China is working toward launching a manned space flight Real Soon Now(tm). Many news sites have stories suggesting it could be as soon as a week away. The flight is expected to last about 90 minutes and complete one orbit." According to some of these stories, though, there's speculation about the flight lasting up to 24 hours.

Comments

This is exactly what the world needs

[Eric Ass Raymond]

Excellent.

Maybe we can get the space race started again.

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[sl0ppy]

unfortunately, the US and Russia probably won't be part of this space race, which may leave us behind the times.

instead, we'll have China, India, and a few other countries making leaps and bounds, possibly passing both the US and Russia before either country figures out to re-join the space race.

i don't think this is necessarily a "good thing".

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[Eric Ass Raymond]

i don't think this is necessarily a "good thing"

And why is that? Developing space technology can only be a good thing.

If the US and Russia are too lazy to get off their collective asses and meet the challenge, it's their fault - not China's, India's or other more innovative countries fault.

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[Keebler71]

What challenge? I hope you aren't referring to putting a man sub-orbital, orbital, building a space station or going to the moon because I think they have all been done. Regardless, good luck to China, I hope they succeed.

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[sl0ppy]

And why is that?

because NASA has already been getting a bad rap with the public lately.

if NASA is late joining the new space race, and other countries get ahead, public support would sway even further away from what would be perceived as an inept agency wasting money.

if NASA doesn't attempt to at least stay in check with a modern space race, it could spell the end of government funded space exploration in this country.

while some may perceive this as a good thing, i happen to believe that the government still has a place in space exploration -- just not in the space tourism business, private companies are coming in to take up that slack.

there's a difference between private companies picking up the space tourism, and the perception that NASA space exploration is being surpassed by what most people still consider to be "third world countries".

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[larry bagina]

China and India are both 3rd world countries that happen to have a small 2nd and 1st world population.

I don't see how we could be behind the times. They didn't develop their own space program, they bought some old russian parts.

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[sl0ppy]

They didn't develop their own space program, they bought some old russian parts.

China also didn't invent Linux, but they did manage to adapt it, and build on it, to produce their Red Flag operating system.

just because they're starting out with purchased parts, doesn't mean that they won't develop anything new. it simply means that they have a jump on where they would be had they developed all of the technology themselves.

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[Anonymous Coward]

How about creating an entire space program that can put a person into orbit for less than the US spends on maintaining the Shuttle for one year. There space program is only costing something like 3 billion dollars.

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[Troed]

They didn't develop their own space program, they bought some old russian parts.

World War II. German scientists. USA.

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[Zathrus]

And why is that? Developing space technology can only be a good thing.

Oh please. That's untrue. I can think of a number of ways that developing space technology can be bad -- lauching a man into orbit is essentially declaring that you have intercontinental ballistic missile technology (to some extent launching anything into orbit is, but putting a man up there means that you can carry a much larger payload and do so with high reliability -- both big points). You could also develop "space technology" toward the point of mass launchers which have the destruction potential of nuclear weapons with less radiation and other issues.

Is this the purpose behind China launching a man into orbit? I seriously doubt it. But blanket statements like that are silly. It's like saying that nuclear power is only a bad thing -- it's not the technology that is good or bad, it's the application there of. And pretty much any technology can be used for either.

If the US and Russia are too lazy to get off their collective asses and meet the challenge

Russia is a bit more concerned with how to feed itself and pay its people than with the space program. The US has other interests at the moment. Manned space programs are largely viewed as a black hole for public spending -- because while they do return benefits in the form of new technologies, they do so irregularly and with highly indirect benefits. It's unlikely that the manned space program will ever repay itself directly.

I'd like to see the human race off this single mudball as well, but inane sophistry like that doesn't help things.

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[Eric Ass Raymond]

Your message boils down to this:

Evil nations should not have access to space.
Only the good nations should have access to space.

That, if something, is inane sophistry.

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[Eric Ass Raymond]

Looks like at least two moderators need to get the sand out of their vagina today...

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry to tell you this, but China already has ICBMs. Had them for decades. In fact, China recently has been selling payload space on Longmarches.

It's not their rocket program that's behind, it's their manned program.

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell? This isn't a Troll. Why do they give out modpoints to ignorant fools? :-(

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[Anonymous Coward]

Goddamn I'm so fed up with the moral relativism spouted by the flaming liberals! Saying that "there is no evil" over and over again does not make it true. There really are evil people and evil nations on this earth. You have to be blind or in denial to believe otherwise!

The real question is which are they? One mans' terrorist is another mans' freedom fighter.

I don't think most liberals deny the existence of evil; rather, I think they see evil in places where you don't. Like here here , here, and here. Of course, there is also this.

Evil is all too common; don't turn a blind eye to the evil which you find convenient.

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[Tokerat]

The world needs to forget about their pride for a while. It sickens me that the only reason any progress is ever made is because we're trying to "prove" ourselves over other nations, and that it's "an embarassment" and "an insult" when one nation achieves a goal before another does.

It's as if no one in any government (or any citizen, for that matter) has ever graduated from middle school.

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[Zathrus]

No, my message (the first part at least) boils down to the reality that a misused tool, whether out of malice or ignorance, can do damage. The OP attempted to claim that space flight could do nothing but good, and that's just plain bullshit.

I didn't even state that the Chinese shouldn't have manned flight -- frankly I'm indifferent on the matter. Sure, I'd much rather see the US doing more in space, but I don't have any inherent objections to the Chinese (or Indians or whoever) doing it instead. The more the merrier -- as long as we all play nice. The same goes for nuclear power. Hell, the same goes for fire.

That, if something, is inane sophistry.

Then I suggest you study history more. Denying opponents critical advantages on the basis of right vs wrong has been a fundamental tenent of humanity for a few thousand years. It never works in the long run (unless you or another opponent of theirs manages to wipe them out), but that doesn't change reality.

Re:This is exactly what the world needs

[linzeal]

Where would science be without germany? They publish like what 40% of all scientific papers? Too bad scientific german is the most daunting of all specialized languages to learn.

Low gravity eating?

[PFactor]

Were this to be a longer flight, how would they solve the problem of eating with chopsticks in low gravity?

Re:Low gravity eating?

[Epistax]

I'll pretend you're being half serious.

Eating with chopsticks in space would be easier than eating with a knife or fork. For using either of those, you must apply pressure against a back surface. You won't be able to stab a steak in the air (not that they get steak) as it would go flying into a research colony of ants and spread havok (I for one welcome yadda yadda yadda). Same thing with knives. With spoons, you're relying on gravity to hold whatever you picked up on the spoon.

With chopsticks, however, you provide pressure to two sides of a food particle. While making a mistake might be more spectacular (fling), they are less likely to happen.

Sticky rice, anyone?

Re:Low gravity eating?

[jargoone]

I'll also pretend you're being half serious.

I don't know about you, but I don't always use a fork like a spoon, i.e. like a shovel. I tend to use those points on the fork for, you know, stabbing stuff. I think that would be rather effective in space.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[ashitaka]

Sticky rice, anyone?

This is a Chinese flight, not Japanese.

Actually Nor Mai Gai (sticky rice wrapped in a lotus Leaf) would be good space food. Dim Sum, mmmmmm.

But the point about chopsticks being good for eating in space is absolutely right as ha been shown on the various shuttle flights that had Japanese astronauts on board. You can pick anything right out of the air.

"Beginner's ruck"

Re:Low gravity eating?

[pe1rxq]

Basic physics:

Since even fork with points of a single atom will cause a force on the steak the stack will simply fly away from you.... Unless there is a plate on the other side preventing it moving away from you like on earth.
With chopsticks the second stick will provide an equal, yet oposite in direction, force on the other side of the steak... Those forces will cancel eachother out and the steak will not get accelerated.

If you were stabbing harder at a steak in space it would only fly away faster.

Jeroen

Re:Low gravity eating?

[VEGx]

Wasn't that explained? In order to "stab" your food, you need to have a solid surface, you can't do it flying in mid air. Imagine the food just floating there; try to stab it! No go. If you have it stuck on the table, the wall, or something, then yes, it's easy to eat with fork and knife

Re:Low gravity eating?

[Anonymous Coward]

Using scissors and tongs rather than knife and fork a steak would be as easy to eat in zero g as it is on earth.

Cooking it on the zero-g flame grill barbie kit is a different issue altogether.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[TheAntiCrust]

Not if you stabbed fast enough! The steak should have enough inertia that it wont accelerate fast enough to get away from the fork before the fork penetrates it. Sort of like spearing a fish in water. There is nothing on the other side of the fish, but the spear goes through if you do it fast enough.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[Anonymous Coward]

That would have to be a really sharp fork, and a really soft steak.

And either way, chopsticks would be easier.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[Urkki]

Also note that not only do you need something to stab against, you also need to be attached to it, or the force of the stab will make you fly away.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[Anonymous Coward]

There's water on the other side of the fish, which causes much greater resistance to the fish's movement than air would. Also, a fish has much greater inertia than a piece of steak.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[radish]

Chinese (Jasmine) rice is sticky, not as sticky as japanese rice, but sticky nonetheless.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[los furtive]

I'll bite. Water offers a lot more resistance than air (try slapping water or doing a belly flop). That doesn't mean your technique won't work, it will just be a lot harder. And you'll have a lot less luck spearing the meatballs on your spaghetti, let alone the noodles...while chopsticks wouldn't bat an eye. But if you really want to spear all the food you consume in space...by all means don't let me stop you.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[Anonymous Coward]

That would have to be a really sharp fork, and a really soft steak.

If the fork has points of a single atom, that's a really sharp fork.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[Anonymous Coward]

Chinese (Jasmine) rice is sticky, not as sticky as japanese rice, but sticky nonetheless.

It should be fluffy, not sticky. You're not cooking it right.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[Yuan-Lung]

As sound as that is, you'd need a sharp fork and a massive and tender steak to get it to work. Are you also doing high-speed mid-air slices with a rasor sharp knife too? if not, you are probably going to need the steak to be pre-cut into little slices. Good luck trying to harpoon those.

Also by using a sharp fork, you introduce unecessary risk during meal time. You could either cut your own mouth or injure others near you....

Re:Low gravity eating?

[nolocke]

Ed Lu, the current ISS science officer has this to say in his blog (http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/station/crew/exp7/lul etters/lu_letter3.html) about eating in space:

"As for utensils, the only utensil we use is a spoon. Don Pettit had a pair of chopsticks up here, but I haven't found where he stashed them yet, so I can use them! It turns out there is no need for a fork or a knife. All of the food that requires a utensil to eat has some sort of sauce or at least some moisture to it, so it naturally sticks to the spoon. This is the same effect on the ground that allows drops of water to stick to windows, here it allows us to eat without having our food fly all over the place. This force isn't very strong, so you have to move fairly slowly when eating, or the food will literally fly right off your spoon (and onto the wall). "

Funny that NASA engineered their food specifically to work with spoons. But they have managed to semi-solve the problem of food in micro-gravity flying off of spoons.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[Anonymous Coward]

If only they had plates in space! I for one look forward to this invention. I'm sure this will start a new space race for the best utensils and dishes. When the Chinese realize that, although a man who can catch a fly (or flying piece of steak) with chopsticks can accomplish anything, they'll surely have to face the reality that individual grains of rice are much harder to eat in sufficient quantities in zero-G, thus possibly leading to the space-bowl. It will only be a matter of time before our own astronauts realize chasing small globules of tang around the cargo-bay of the space shuttle is too time consuming and we will counter with some form of space-drinking-glass. The civilian sector can only benefit from such competition, as capitalism and imperialist arms races have shown throughout history. I look forward to the day when I can sip a capri-sun without danger of spilling while hanging upside down from the monkey bars, suspended by my velcro shoes, and enjoying a steak that can be cut with a knife and stabbed with a fork, thanks to the wonderous space-plate which provides the equal and opposite force which Newton requires for me to enjoy a cut of beef, with A-1 of couse.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[pe1rxq]

Also by using a sharp fork, you introduce unecessary risk during meal time. You could either cut your own mouth or injure others near you....

Don't forget puncturing the hull in case you miss the steak and launch your fork into its own orbit :)

Jeroen

Re:Low gravity eating?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Don Pettit had a pair of chopsticks up here, but I haven't found where he stashed them yet"

Funny, but I was under the impression that communication and documentation were good enough as to make this inconceivable.

Chopstics may be a small marginal payload, but they have mass. I'd think *any* mass whose location isn't known could be a potential problem with attitude or orbit.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[BhAaD]

You can make your chopsticks *really* sharp on one end and then you dont have to worry about the "flinging" food.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[Cerberus7]

Ah, but if you push off from one wall, and somebody throws the steak at you from the opposite direction, you could spear the steak! :9

Ah, f$#@ it, just grab the steak with your hands and chow down!

Re:Low gravity eating?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is anyone else picturing this moron winning a well deserved darwin award for stabbing right through the side of the space capsule?

Re:Low gravity eating?

[Anonymous Coward]

sticky rice is chinese food, not japanese food, though i am sure by now it has been incorporated into japanese cuisine

Re:Low gravity eating?

[Repran]

sticky rice

Re:Low gravity eating?

[DunbarTheInept]

But wouldn't you then need a fork that had more friction one direction than the other? (So that it takes more force to pull it out than it did to stick it in - perhaps it's serrated.) Otherwise although you'd succeed at piercing the meat, the momentum you gave it from the hard hit would make it slide right off the tines and keep travelling forward.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your post said it funnier than I would have. Bravo.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[cheekyboy]

Man those chineese are way ahead of their time, maybe they are a decendant of an alien race that always used chopsticks.

Re:Low gravity eating?

[TheAntiCrust]

Grrr, no! There is still friction from the tines on the fork. Try shoving your fork into something at home, and then shake it a bit. A lot of times (I dont know what your stabbing so I cant say always) but a lot of time even with the assitance of gravity the food wont come off. Of course there is friction!

Re:Low gravity eating?

[DunbarTheInept]

Grrr, no! There is still friction from the tines on the fork.

You didn't properly read what I typed. I never implied there was no friction. Not Once. I implied that it isn't going to be enough friction unless it exceeds the friction experienced when the food was stabbed. (Because there's just as much problem trying to decellerate the food quickly as there was in trying to make sure you stabbed it fast enough to spear it.)

Actually, as I think on it more, it would work would if the friction was equal both directions, provided you stabbed the food in such a manner that you slowed it down more gently than you stabbed it.

Blimey

[JohnGrahamCumming]

[1800s-style Imperialist Brit Mode On]
Next you'll be telling us that old Johnny Chinaman has gained mastery
over the atom and created a doomsday weapon ready to threaten our
very own God-fearing people.

Well never fear gentle-people, in my new steam-o-matic flying machine
I'll quickly handle this yellow menace so your children can sleep
soundly!

God Bless Queen Victoria
[1800s-style Imperialist Brit Mode Off]

Re:Blimey

[Anonymous Coward]

[2000s-style Imperialist American Mode On]

Next you'll be telling us that those godless chinese bastards have gained mastery over the dollar and created a doomsday economy ready to threaten our very own God-feating people.

Well never fear, my fellow-Americans, with my new Deluxe Pre-emptive foreign policy machine, I'll quickly nuke those yellow bastards so our children can sleep soundly! And as for the Arabs...

God Bless America!
[2000s-style Imperialist American Mode Off]

The 60's called...

[pdbogen]

They want their space program back.

(Sorry. :()

Re:The 60's called...

[Anonymous Coward]

Gates/Ballmer to Linus torvalds dated 1992: The 80s called..They want their operating system back.

Re:The 60's called...

[sean23007]

The 21st century called: They also want the 60's space program back...

Re:The 60's called...

[Anonymous Coward]

The 21st century could use a lot of things from the 1960's.

damn

[ColeNielsen]

you mean it's never been done before?

Re:damn

[Roadkills-R-Us]

Well, no. At least, not by a mostly third world country. They got cell phones. They got nukes. They got spaceflight. Maybe one day they'll be able to [political dissent censored].

I bet...

[Anonymous Coward]

...90 minutes later, they'll have the urge to orbit again.

Space Domination

[citadelgrad]

I've got two bits that says there will be a Chinese buffet on the moon within three years.

Re:Space Domination

[Bendebecker]

If that's true, I got two bits that within 4 years there will a dozen extra restrooms on the moon too.

Good Luck!

[bishmasterb]

I hope everything goes successfully for the Chinese, and I hope that this is only the beginning for a long Chinese manned space program.

Additionally, let this serve as a wake-up call to us, that manned space exploration is a common goal and desire that we all share.

Re:Good Luck!

[Anne_Nonymous]

The only way the US will really get motivated, is if China threatens to surpass American technology. This short flight, in a ship of copied design, decades after the US did it, will not motivate NASA or Congress (that mighty controller of the purse strings) in the least.

Re:Good Luck!

[polyp2000]

Yes another space race would be a great thing. Id like to see people walking on mars , in my lifetime please ;)

Re:Good Luck!

[GoofyBoy]

I absolutely agree with your feelings of best intentions.

>that manned space exploration is a common goal and desire that we all share.

Actually not all of us do. I rather have China improve their standard of living and level of freedoms rather than spend the effort for more "chest-thump-ing in the name of Chairman Mao".

I rather have these improvements here at home too.

Re:Good Luck!

[websaber]

Of course it can be argued most of what america calls it's standard of living came from the space program. computers, transisters etc... (don't tell me that they would have been invented any way cause I said "It could be argued"

Re:Good Luck!

[3th3rn3t]

so what if the Chinese
(insert 60's horror film narrator voice)
ATTACK HUMANITY FROM SPACE ?!?!
(/insert 60's horror film narrator voice)

Re:Good Luck!

[redmoss]

I share your sentiments completely. *Any* human expansion into space should be welcomed by all as an advancement for all humanity. As for US angst (or some would call it imperialism), the US public should wake up, get off their asses, and start voting more space-activity-friendly lawmakers into office! Space travel should be looked at as the gateway to a new frontier instead of an eccentric, expensive enterprise as most of the US Congress seems to view it right now.

Re:Good Luck!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I for one welcome our new Chinese space-capable overlords...and wish to remind them that as a former contender in space we are in a unique position to....

Re:Good Luck!

[michael_cain]

IMO, US motivation won't count this time around. The US economy has piled up so much debt, and is facing the enormous future expenses of the retiring baby-boom generation. When the time comes that Congress has to decide between manned spaceflight and medical care for the boomers, the boomers are going to win. Regardless of what the rest of the world may do, the US can't afford a significant new manned space program. Most of western Europe and Japan are in the same position due to rapidly aging populations.

Space flight is a game for young, growing populations.

Re:Good Luck!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, it could be argued. But it also could be argued that the space program wasted money that would have been far better spent on countless social concerns while the technological benefits would have occured anyways.

Re:Good Luck!

[fruity1983]

Additionally, let this serve as a wake-up call to us, that manned space exploration is a common goal and desire that we all share

That or the weaponization of space is a goal all countries share.

Re:Good Luck!

[lp_bugman]

Do you know NASA's budget? is about 1/1000 of what the Army gets ?

NASA has to little of a budget to be a concern

Re:Good Luck!

[Anonymous Coward]

You're wrong on all counts. Computers came about mostly because of inventors, WWII and business. Transistors were invented at Bell Labs .. for business.
And yes, they would have been invented anyway, just in a different time frame. Study your history. The space program USED stuff that ALREADY existed.

Re:Good Luck!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't bet on it. Us of the younger generation learnd to be cold-hearted bastards from those boomer-controlled media empires. In just a few years, we'll pull the plug on their health care, or maybe just their life support. They all want drugged to oblivion anyway.

Re:Good Luck!

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you claiming that Congress is alot smarter than the typical kook trekkie?

Personally, I think it's just coincidence that they haven't funded it more than the billions they've already appropriated for sci-fi fantasies.

Re:Good Luck!

[RayBender]

Us of the younger generation learnd to be cold-hearted bastards from those boomer-controlled media empires. In just a few years, we'll pull the plug on their health care, or maybe just their life support.

If there were enough of us (there isn't - they were a "boom", remember?) and enough of us bothered to vote (which we don't).

Re:Good Luck!

[willtsmith]

You obviously haven't heard of Free Trade.

Now our technology is THEIR technology. They're buying up defense sub-contractors and shipping them off to China.

The latest casualty is Rare-Earth magnet supplies. A local manufacturer here in Valparaiso was bought by Magnaquench. Now magnaquench has closed the factory and is shipping the entire opertion off to China. Magnaquench produced 80% of the rare-earth magnets used in smart-bombs.

Re:Good Luck!

[Naelphin]

I think people overestimate how much is spent on Space. The first source I found on google states that $25 billion is spent of food stamps alone back in 1992, yet the total budget of nasa is a mere $16 billion.

How much would an extra $16 billion help really with the amount already spent on welfare?

Re:Good Luck!

[Anonymous Coward]

Puh-lease.

Re:Good Luck!

[Anonymous Coward]

>that manned space exploration is a common goal and desire that we all share.

Actually not all of us do. I rather have China improve their standard of living and level of freedoms rather than spend the effort for more "chest-thump-ing in the name of Chairman Mao".

I rather have these improvements here at home too.

Well it is possible that China actually understands the need for human spaceflight:

1. That it is necessary for our long-term survival as a species. That currently we have our eggs in one basket, and will eventually maximize the distribution of resources on this planet.
2. That innovation is a product of being challenged when confronted with new frontiers.
3. That there are inherent advantages of being the first to establish colonies on, and lay claim to celestial bodies such as the Moon, and Mars.
4. That spaceflight does generate enormous of national pride, and enthusiasm because the citizens feel as if they are part of something grand.

Lack of vision, and narrow horizons will get you nowhere. The US currently has this deficiency, and has therefore become overly complacent. What many have yet to realize is that the space-race didn't end with the moon. The stakes are higher in this century (i.e. Mars), and the first nation to make the next "giant leap for mankind" will profit enormously.

Re:Good Luck!

[GoofyBoy]

>That it is necessary for our long-term survival as a species.

Long term? I'm talking to short/middle-term. Some places of the world can benefit greatly from things other than Teflon or Tang.

>That innovation is a product of being challenged when confronted with new frontiers.

How about the frontier of political freedom and basic human rights? Not all frontiers are physical or StarTrek-like.

>That there are inherent advantages of being the first to establish colonies on, and lay claim to celestial bodies such as the Moon, and Mars.

You can't lay claim to the Moon, it was an agreement in the 60s.

>That spaceflight does generate enormous of national pride, and enthusiasm because the citizens feel as if they are part of something grand.

Are you advocating properganda? If I never watched a space shuttle mission on TV how would I feel proud? I feel a whole lot better when my child doesen't have to go hungery or I don't have to worry about my next paycheque.

Re:Good Luck!

[LuckyStarr]

humor noted. :)

BUT!

they could allready do it unmanned. and even if
they build a base on moon, a attack from there
would be unlikely. a missile from there would be underway for many days.

for them it would be easyer to drop some nukes here
on earth. and i dont see that coming. if you need
a boogie-man, go to north-korea.

Re:Good Luck!

[michael_cain]

Easy enough to say, in a collective sense. Much harder to do when it's your mom, or your favorite aunt, that you are talking about unplugging. Can I be there when you tell your mom, "I know the cataract thing is inconvenient, but I'd rather have someone walk on Mars than have you see."?

The system is broken. The boomers' parents bought themselves a nice retirement package, getting the boomers to pay for it by promising that they could have the same deal when they got old. But for various reasons, the numbers don't work out and it doesn't look like that promise can be kept. But the boomers may well bankrupt the country trying to get it anyway.

A scary concept

[nurb432]

Great, a repressive country that hates the entire planet, has nuclear weapons, is mentally unstable, and now can send people into orbit.

The safety of the world just went down a few notches.. ( or at least will next week )

Re:A scary concept

[perly-king-69]

Great, a repressive country that hates the entire planet, has nuclear weapons, is mentally unstable, and now can send people into orbit.

Enough about the USA, what about China?

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, a repressive country that hates the entire planet, has nuclear weapons, is mentally unstable, and now can send people into orbit.

Hey, don't badmouth the US now!

Re:A scary concept

[mo^]

Hey, don't badmouth the US now!

How about now??

Re:A scary concept

[Sr. Zezinho]

Have you been living under a rock? The USA have sent people into orbit since the 60s.

Great, a repressive country that hates the entire planet, has nuclear weapons, is mentally unstable, and now can send people into orbit.

The safety of the world just went down a few notches.. ( or at least will next week )

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

Please explain in detail exactly how the USA has harmed you personally. Remember, no lies will be accepted. I want the honest truth, if that's possible. Do you have any facts to back up your rhetoric?

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever flown in the last two years?

Have you tried getting a bank loan in Brazil?

Have you tried getting a job in Nicaragua?

Re:A scary concept

[PhuCknuT]

s/USA/China/ and ask yourself the same question.

Re:A scary concept

[Keebler71]

I have flown many times in the last year. The only differences I have noticed are slightly longer lines at security (as far as I can tell, I have not been too mentally damaged by these) and a lack of plastic knives with my substandard airline food. Oh yes, and the cockpit door is closed. Big deal.

As for your other complaints... how exactly is it the fault of the US that loans are hard to obtain in Brazil or jobs in Nicaragua. Sure there are US banking interestes in Brazil and US employers in Nicaragua but why can't those contries support their own banking and employment? If anything the US is doing a favor by supplementing the local job market with additional employment. Sure those jobs don't make what similiar jobs in the US would make but isn't it better than nothing?

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, that accurately describes the current state of the US, but what about China? *ducks*

Re:A scary concept

[perly-king-69]

Calm down, it was only a joke.

I do find most Americans abroad are quite loud and obnoxious, but on the times I have visited your country I've only experienced courtesy and service of the highest order.

The honest truth.

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you worried they will put a nuclear weapon in space? Sounds like a movie I once saw. Maybe Clint Eastwood would be availble to disarm it.

Re:A scary concept

[Waffle Iron]

Great, a repressive country that hates the entire planet, has nuclear weapons, is mentally unstable, and now can send people into orbit.

Without that country sending goods to stock the shelves, your local Wal-Mart would look like Who-ville after the Grinch got done with it. If you're one of the 99% of Americans who send a good chunk of your cash to China every time you go shopping, you hardly have any business complaining about what they decide to spend your money on after you've just willingly given it to them.

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

Well let's see..

1. We have started a "war on terrorism" that is open-ended and has no clearly-defined foes.

2. In an economy that has lost over 2 million high-paying technology and manufacturing jobs over the past 3 years, we are cutting taxes (thus impoverishing the government) and sending money to Iraq to rebuild (which they wouldn't need if we hadn't spent a few dozen billion dollars destroying it in the first place).

3. The Bill of Rights has been replaced with the Patriot Act, where any law-abiding citizen, regardless of race, can be detained indefinitely without a judge's order, and anyone checking out books on chemistry from the library can find themselves under investigation for terrorism.

4. Existing laws and penalties for crimes are being pushed aside in favor of harsher, terror-related laws out of line with the severity of the offense. Granted, making methamphetamine is illegal, but there are existing drug laws against it. Charging that same person with "making chemical weapons" is not what the anti-terrorism laws were created for.

I could go on and on..

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

how exactly is it the fault of the US that loans are hard to obtain in Brazil or jobs in Nicaragua. Sure there are US banking interestes in Brazil and US employers in Nicaragua but why can't those contries support their own banking and employment?

Simple the (US run and backed) IMF f**ked up their economies by imposing unsuitable reforms based on their unscientific ideology.

Re:A scary concept

[Anonym1ty]

I do find most Americans abroad are quite loud and obnoxious, but on the times I have visited your country I've only experienced courtesy and service of the highest order.

The reason you experience all of those Americans abroad is because we can't stand them either.

---This is America do it our way or get out.... Those people got out.

Re:A scary concept

[Spock_NPA]

You're mistakening North Korea for China.

Re:A scary concept

[Catskul]

Actually citizens cannot be detained this way.

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

That doesn't make *me* feel any better as a politically active immigrant.

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I believe that a citizen's rights as a citizen are revoked when they are declared an 'enemy combatant'. IIRC, this can be done 'at a whim', without any trial or judge's oversight.

Re:A scary concept

[drinkypoo]

Many persons in middle eastern countries have found bombs falling on them out of the sky. Some days later, the pavers showed up; a few days after that, some men came and painted some diagonal yellow lines all over it.

Re:A scary concept

[websaber]

+1 funny where the heck are mod pints when you need them.

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, who are we to support human rights when the violations are so pervasive that not supporting the abusers is a herculean task?

That's like saying if you buy water from Satan, you may not object to demons.

Re:A scary concept

[jimmydigital]

> 1. We have started a "war on terrorism" that is open-ended and has no clearly-defined foes.

We would much prefer the foes to clearly define themselves... terrorists don't wear uniforms and march under a common flag you know.

> (thus impoverishing the government)

It wouldn't be impoverished if they stopped playing the role of a twisted robbin hood.. stealing from the middle and upper class and giving it away to anyone who asks... here or abroad.

Our BigGov needs to get back to basics.. actually doing what it is mandated to do by the constitution.. that alone would resolve many of these issues.

If you agree.. I'd encourage you to join up with the Free State Project and help set an example of how things CAN be done.

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

(which they wouldn't need if we hadn't spent a few dozen billion dollars destroying it in the first place)

You aren't really putting the blame in the right place. The infrastructure in Iraq was already on the verge of failure due to the UN sanctions. If the US hadn't attacked Iraq, then obviously the US wouldn't be sending billions upon billions of dollars over there to fix the place up. That doesn't mean that the Iraq didn't need an enormous amount of help to get back on its feet again due to the sanctions.

Re:A scary concept

[Catskul]

From what I have read, there is not legal definition of "enemy combatant" it was somthing made up by Ashcroftt. Despite a federal judges ruling that the citizens being held without charge must be released, the justice department has not complied. This is actually even scarier than it being legal.

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

Several citizens have been detained that way. Where have you been?

Re:A scary concept

[Catskul]

...But this is not connected to the Patriot Act.

Re:A scary concept

[Catskul]

....illegally. A federal Judge has ordered them released, but the Justice department has not complied.

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

The infrastructure in Iraq was already on the verge of failure due to the UN sanctions.

This is a myth that is perpetuated by those grasping for some facts to support the invasion of Iraq. Saddam was an asshole, but he fed, clothed and watered his people during the UN sanctions. They *had* infrastructure. The electricity supply worked (for example). A recent report into child welfare shows things are much, much, much worse since the coalition "liberated" them.

Don't perpetuate the lies please. Do some research.

PS: Saddam didn't have anything to do with 9/11 either.

Re:A scary concept

[wampus]

I wouldn't call it willing, neccesarily. Have you ever tried to buy most common consumer goods? Its pretty hard to find a lot of stuff made in the USA.

Re:A scary concept

[cmorriss]

Saddam was an asshole, but he fed, clothed and watered his people during the UN sanctions. They *had* infrastructure. The electricity supply worked (for example). A recent report into child welfare shows things are much, much, much worse since the coalition "liberated" them.

Were African-American slaves better off because their master provided them the bare necessities for life, but didn't allow them to really live? Two months after they were freed, they had no job and were probably finding it more difficult to survive. However, they were better off because they had control over their own destiny.

Re:A scary concept

[Yanray]

Actually it is more of a question of markups and profit margins involved in the sale of these goods then the original production methods. Between that and the American/European "Fatcats" who are making the money manufacturing these products in China; China is getting very little from this then temporary small pay for a small percentage of its enormous pop. and some outdated factories. Most goods for export are still manufactured in trade zones and do not fall under taxable manufacturing for the Chinese government.

All the US has to do (which is unlikely) to become productive as a manufacturing nation again is open worker visa's, void of most pay and recompensation restrictions set on all companies in america on all inhabitants (instead palace a citizenship rule on this), to the masses and make them cheap to get. Watch the Mexicans pile over the border then working for less then minimium in American. That will show these slashdotters who believe America no longer has civil liberties which country is better to live in. Let them move to a country that they think has more freedoms AND the ability to protect those freedoms.

Pardon my rant...

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

Got your bags packed for the big move yet?

Re:A scary concept

[Dolly_Llama]

The problem in a lot of areas is that IMF and World Bank monetary aid is tied into financial modernization and hooking into the world economy. For most this means cash crop agriculture and exploitative labor. Land ownership is centralized to be competitive and the workers tend to be employees vs sharecroppers or small land holders. When the commodity price drops as is the case with coffee now, farms layoff workers leading to large unemployment without the social welfare system enjoyed by developed nations.

The solution would be to diversify the economy, but this is difficult without foreign investment which is largely interested in the two above forms of industry.

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called separation of powers. It's one of the reasons our democrasy works.

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

how can you tell the difference?

(hint: there is none. It's only historical)

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm no fan of the IMF, but how come is it that their economies are so much better now than before the IMF? I'm not saying the IMF is the reason their economies are better, just that it hasn't done that much damage, and the answer to my rhetorical question is that the US (apart from the IMF) has craeted in jobs and investment and technological advancement and provided a market and stable political and economic system to allow places that were once medieval or primitive societies to grow, a little bit at a time, sometimes unevenly.

Re:A scary concept

[Keebler71]

Then they shouldn't have taken on the loans if they can't meet the terms.

Re:A scary concept

[Anonymous Coward]

(hint: there is none. It's only historical)

You're dumb.

Re:A scary concept

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Maybe if USA didn't invade those countries (yes USA did invade, not with the military but with the CIA) then some of those countries wouldn't be as badly off as they are.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:A scary concept

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Then they shouldn't have taken on the loans if they can't meet the terms.

Actually the people who are going to get a shock when these countries stop paying their debt will be those in the rich countries (read: you and me). The so-called loans that countries like USA give out are nothing more than grants. Don't expect to see them back ever again. What USA and others are doing is what Noam Chomsky roughly referred to as "socializiation of debt"--a concept that makes no sense whatsoever to anyone on the left. USA doesn't write off the debt and when these countries do collapse, USA will get hit big time.

I predict that the collapse of the developing countries due to debt might cause the collapse of capitalism. Let's wait and see if I'm right...

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:A scary concept

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

I'm not a liberatarian but...

The Free State Project is supposed to be liberatarian-right. You certainly are on the right but I doubt that you are much of a liberatarian. I don't know how your state is going to survive with people like you around. The first statement alone shows that you are not much of a liberatarian. I don't see how a liberatarian can support an open-ended war with no trials, indefinite jail, etc. In addition, you seem to imply that you support imperialist wars. Again, this is contrary to many liberatarian views.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:A scary concept

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Are you equating the abolitionist movement with the invastion of Iraq? You have no idea what you are talkin about but I'll just throw one argument towards you...

What you are saying would actually mean something if:

1. you held to your principles (i.e. ended up overthrowing all despotic, totalitarian, etc regimes starting with Kuwait)
2. If the newly formed govt was democracy-like. So far, the Iraqi govt is a hand-picked govt run by Chalabi (a thief who actually stole millions of dollars from the US govt). And all the signs indicate that Iraq will be run by an autocratic govt.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:A scary concept

[jimmydigital]

I was only countering your implication that we shouldn't be fighting terrorism at all.. I may disagree with the way the current administration is going about it... but there is no question to me that we need to be fighting it. Now.. if we were not spending so much on those social programs I brought up we could also defend our borders here at home. You have a problem with an 'open ended' war.. no clear enemy etc... I don't like it either.. but the reality is THAT is what we have to deal with.. we are not fighting a nation state.. we are fighting a small percentage of Islamic extremists. They won't stand together under a common flag or uniform... Given the existing makeup of our military... how would you propose to eliminate them? You do think they should be eliminated right? It is kill or be killed with these people.. there is no negotiating or reasoning.. Perhaps you should spend less time trying to put a jersey on me and focus on trying to understand the bigger picture.

I've been wrong before, but ...

[JSkills]

... the first thing that occured to me when I saw this headline was "so f--ing what?". I am certainly not saying that the exploration of space and the science/efforts behind attempting to achieve it aren't anything short of fascinating, but that fact that China's doing something that was done over 30 years ago? Big deal. Or maybe I'm missing the significance? It wouldn't be the first time and I'm sure if I am, there will be no shortage of ./'ers to tell me so.

In other news, people of China have discovered the VCR, the internet, and thicker toilet paper infused with aloe-vera ...

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[Zocalo]

True, mankind has been in space since the 1960's, but the fact remains that just *two* space programs have achieved this to date. Comments like "Hey China, welcome to the 1960's" are akin to saying "Hey Cortez, welcome to the 1490's" upon his return from America.

I personally think this is the best news to happen to space exploration for ages; it might just scare enough people in the US/EU to kick a little more funding towards NASA/ESA.

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[dmaxwell]

Done in the '60s or no, manned spaceflight is Very Hard and Very Expensive. Up till now, the manned spaceflight club only had two real members the USA and USSR/Russia. Anybody else pulling this off is news. It's especially news these days since the Russians can't afford to do the things they accomplished in their heyday and the US is infatuated with shuttles and mostly just plays in low Earth orbit.

Manned spaceflight has needed aggressive new blood for some time now. If China starts accomplishing "Great Things", then it just might motivate the US a little.

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[skarmor]

the first thing that occured to me when I saw this headline was "so f--ing what?". I am certainly not saying that the exploration of space and the science/efforts behind attempting to achieve it aren't anything short of fascinating, but that fact that China's doing something that was done over 30 years ago? Big deal. Or maybe I'm missing the significance? It wouldn't be the first time and I'm sure if I am, there will be no shortage of ./'ers to tell me so.

Well, during the cold war the space program was really a demonstration of capability. If a state has the capabiltiy to put a person in orbit then it is inferred that they also have the capability to hit any country in the world with a missle carrying a good sized payload. This coupled with nuclear capability is a not-so-subtle "don't fuck with us" statement.

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[mo^]

Hey!

England opressed the world and tried to bend everyone to their own empirical will over a hundred years ago.. and the americans are just catching up with us.

fair play to the chinese!

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[JSkills]

Motivating the US to spend more money on NASA? Not sure what kind of an idea that is (good or bad). Of course I am as curious as the next person to see what's out there. But technologically, we're so far away from going anywhere meaningful, particularly when you weigh the expense and effort required againsts the current state of the US economy and health care systems. Couldn't money be better spent at this point in time?

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[iabervon]

It's not like spaceflight is easy yet. Of the two programs that have succeeded so far, one of them is currently not doing it.

Furthermore, it seems like China is interested in further exploration. Until they had ambitions beyond where the US and Russia were going regularly, it didn't make sense to go to space themselves. Now they're interested in going to Mars, but they obviously have to start by getting themselves to orbit. Sure, it was done 30 years ago, but they're actually interested in doing the next step that the US and Russia didn't try at the time.

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[Anonymous Coward]

If China starts accomplishing "Great Things", then it just might motivate the US a little.

On the other hand, if they screw up they have a lot more bodies than we do to try again. I mean, what's the average chinaman's life worth to the communist government over there.. $2? In the USA if you lose 7 astronauts the entire program shuts down for a year while you analyze wtf happened. In China they just roll out the backup rocket and hope it doesn't happen again. I certainly wouldn't want to be the chinaman flying in something made in mainland china. They manufacture crap.

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[Bazman]

Two members? One of which isn't currently flying manned spaceflights because of the last STS incident and one that probably cant afford it anymore.

Anyone know where I can start learning Chinese?

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[ChuckDivine]

Motivating the US to spend more money on NASA? Not sure what kind of an idea that is (good or bad). Of course I am as curious as the next person to see what's out there. But technologically, we're so far away from going anywhere meaningful, particularly when you weigh the expense and effort required againsts the current state of the US economy and health care systems. Couldn't money be better spent at this point in time?

There are at least two answers to this question.

Considering the mess at NASA (see the Columbia report), putting money into NASA looks a bit problematic. But what if we manage to reform NASA and the existing aerospace industry? Spending money on them then seems like it could lead to real benefits. We should also consider that, while NASA has truly major problems, it still does manage to get some real work of real value done.

We could also pour the money into alternatives to the existing NASA/contractor work. That might also lead to major benefits.

We must also consider the level of spending that NASA receives. It's $15B. The United States spends approximately 100 times that annually on health care. We also spend about 25 times NASA's budget on K-12 education. Neither health care nor education is above criticism. If we did cancel NASA and put the money into either education or health care, we might not get any really worthwhile return on the money.

Summing up, while NASA has huge problems and needs reform, the amount we're spending on them is downright trivial.

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[master_p]

I would like to note here that "man in space" should be differentiated by "man in orbit". To put a man in orbit is relatively easy (relative to what humans can achieve, that is), but to put a man in space (i.e., to live in space for a big amount of time, move from planet to planet and from star to star etc) is nearly impossible (due to lack of artificial gravity and good propulsion systems, mainly).

I would feel really proud for the human race when we go to space...putting a man in orbit, even going to the moon, does not mean much to me. If you compare space with sea, the analogy of putting a man in orbit is getting your feet wet at the seaside...that's hardly an accompishment. We are still so primitive...

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[drinkypoo]

We are not technologically far from going anywhere meaningful. We have the technology to go to Mars right now, for example, and put people there. (Getting them back might be out of the question though) :) We are financially far from doing it. Perhaps you meant we are technologically far from doing it inexpensively?

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're speaking from the experience of the last time China had a manned space craft blow up?

Wait.. they didn't have one blow up.. I pulled that out of my ass..

Just like your comment was pulled from yours.

Now give um a chance and shut the hell up.

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone know where I can start learning Chinese?

Go to Hong Kong.

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[soccerisgod]

With all due respect, we europeans might not have made it to the moon and back, but space travel ain't alien to us. In fact, we have plenty of experience with it!

Granted, some of them very pretty bad, but hey...that's how you learn, innit....

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[SmallFurryCreature]

ehm, why do you leave out russia?

It is the only nation currently with the capacity to send people into space. (oops sorry yeah the US can send them up as well. Getting them down is the tricky part)

Russia bankrupt? So what? This is state level we are talking about. Money is an extremly relative thing when you are an goverment. There are still plenty of people in russia willing to work on the space program even when they have to grow their own food.

Don't make the mistake of believing american propaganda (or any propaganda) the current exploration of space is at least 50% russian. And with the space shuttle down manned flight 100%

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[Wyatt Earp]

There were other gaps in the US manned space program before.

After Mercury from May 1963 to to Mar 1965.

After Gemini from Nov. 1966 to Oct. 1968.

After Apollo-Skylab from July 1975 to 1981.

I don't think anyone said the US was not capable of manned spaceflight because of a gap.

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[mysticgoat]

Significant things...

The US and Russia first got into space more than 30 years ago. But both essentially halted development of lift technologies more than 20 years ago. What this means is:

• For the average slashdot reader, the core space technologies currently in use (as seen on the ISS, Shuttle, etc) are their father's technologies
• China's flight next week will be the first attempt at manned space flight with technology that is actually younger than the average slashdot reader

It reminds me of what a nurse educator once told me: would rather hire a nurse with 20 years' experience, or a nurse with one year's experience repeated 20 times?

I, for one, welcome our new chinese taikonauts! And I look forward to seeing what human ingenuity has accomplished in the last 20+ years!

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[Jeremy Erwin]

England opressed the world and tried to bend everyone to their own empirical will

Empirical will? Sounds like a truly fascinating contribution to philosophy. I would have imagined that the concept of "will" is somewhat foreign to empiricism.

Do tell.

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[Anonymous Coward]

We are still so primitive...

Compared to what, exactly? Something you've seen on Sci-Fi? Everything that you can imagine is not always possible (such as jumping through wormholes).

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[wampus]

Well, it shows that the Chinese have been advancing over the last 40 years, and the US has been working on toilet paper technology since the space program got washed down the shitter.

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[grozzie2]

but that fact that China's doing something that was done over 30 years ago? Big deal. Or maybe I'm missing the significance?

You are missing the significance. If you really want to put it in a perspective that hilights the state of 3 space programs, consider these facts.

a) The Chinese space program is planning to launch a person into orbit within the month, on chinese hardware.
b) The Russian space program has a big 'for rent' sign hanging on the launch vehicle on the pad, waiting for a taker.
c) The american space program is planning to use a rented Russian launch vehicle to do crew rotation on the space station in the near future.

This is very good for the american taxpayer, extremely good. What it really means, in the near future, there will be choices when it comes to choosing contractors for outsourcing the american space travel requirements. Nasa will be able to offer up a contract for bid, with 2 viable bidders. This can only result in a significant long term cost reduction for nasa. It costs billions to operate space shuttles, and billions more to oversee the beaurocracy that has been built around them. The whole of Nasa can soon be replaced with a small procurement department that manages the bidding process. This will sit much better with the american public too, because, in the inevitable event that people are lost due to launch / re-entry accidents, there will be a contractor to sue after the fact.

I can see it already. Computer hardware made in korea and taiwan, driven by software written in inda, mounted in launch hardware built in china. A couple of americans tossed in as passengers, with the whole process overseen by american beaurocrats taking advice from a team of american lawyers.

Mind my cynicism on the subject, but America has slipped from the leader to second place in the race to space. Russia is firmly in the lead right now. It'll be interesting to see if the chinese entry can attain second place before the american team gets out of the pits and back into the race.

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Of the two programs that have succeeded so far, one of them is currently not doing it.

Yes, but I heard they were thinking of resuming shuttle missions as early as next year. Thank goodness the Russian spacecraft are still reliable enough to return the astronauts from the ISS!

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[burnetd]

Yeah, so f---ing what, after all they'll be joining the Russain's as the only people to be able to put people into space at the moment. That puts them about a year ahead on the curve compared to NASA.

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[Guppy06]

"Comments like "Hey China, welcome to the 1960's" are akin to saying "Hey Cortez, welcome to the 1490's" upon his return from America."

I'm not sure Cortez is the analogy you want to use here, unless you're intentionally comparing the PRC to a butcher.

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[juhaz]

In China they just roll out the backup rocket and hope it doesn't happen again.

Which is good. Anything so radically new and difficult as space flight, especially manned space flight, is going to make some losses. That's tough, but it's something you just have to accept.

We'd still be living in a jungle in africa if we'd stopped exploring the world for a year whenever someone doing it died.

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Let's put it this way... as long as USA is out on its Imperialist adventures, this isn't going to happen. My history is weak but I do not think there is a case in history of a nation/civilization/etc managing to achieve something while going on an imperial pursuit. Even the richest of them have problems financing it.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:I've been wrong before, but ...

[snake_dad]

He doesn't leave them out. Two countries achieved it, USA and Russia (Soviet Union). Russia still flies, it's the US and EU spaceprograms that need more funding (and better financial management).

This will prove the conspiracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Once they make it to the moon and notice that there is no flag, footprints, or left over rocket parts, then we'll know that the "one small step for mankind" occured somewhere in the Arizona desert.

Re:This will prove the conspiracy

[Anonymous Coward]

If they can't find a flag or nothing on the moon, it will also prove that man just can't go to the moon.

Re:This will prove the conspiracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Carefull, Buzz might hear hear you

Re:This will prove the conspiracy

[ForemastJack]

No, no, no. Had I mod points, this would get "-1 insufficently paranoid." True, you posted as AC (because you never know who is reading this, do you?) but still. You can do better.

This:

"Once they make it to the moon and notice that there is no flag, footprints, or left over rocket parts, then we'll know that the 'one small step for mankind' occured somewhere in the Arizona desert."

..is just plain lazy. You're not hinting that China is part of a vast conspiracy, not wigging out over Chinese attempts to put nuclear missle launchers in orbit over the U.S. -- why, I don't even see references to the Triumvirate, the Pentaverate, or Big-8 summits anywhere in your post. I mean, really: at least toss off a sentence about the Illuminati, anyone can do that!

It's half-assed posts like this that make me worry about the future of Slashdot's tinfoil helmet contingent.

Or are you one of them? Is this just a clever post by an agent of the Chinese-Arab Hegemony? Oh, shit, I'm in for it now. You bastards took my Uncle, you know -- gave him cancer of the wrist because he was writing the Truth about your Black Helicopters and the cattle mutilations in Montana.

The voices, stop the Goddamned voices! I'll talk about what I want -- I'm stronger than your programming, you fascists!

You know, Bin Laden used to take CIA money funneled through Cambodian drug runners specifically to sabatoge the "Chinese" space progeram (it was really being run by British MI-6 out of Hong Kong). But then when Clinton -- this was right after he had Ron Brown assisinated because he was going to talk -- anyway Clinton was in talks with the Russian mafia, who controlled a spaceship that had crashed in Siberia in 1973, he was in talks to set up the ISS as a mind-control beaming station, but the Russian Mafia said no -- the Chinese (I mean, the fucking Limeys in MI-6) made a better offer. Clinton got rough and sent one of those Black Ops assassins to kill Yeltsin, but he (it, really) was intercepted. That's where Monica Lewinsky came in -- she was a Russian plant. What the hell, they'd already killed Kenedy -- Clinton was going to be tough? Anyway --

-- hey, who are you? Aah -- the voices, the searing pain -- you can't keep hiding the truth -- no! -- get away from that ethernet cord -- what are you doing with that tazer?! -- Hey, I --

--NO CARRIER--

Re:This will prove the conspiracy

[Merlinium]

Once they make it to the moon and notice that there is no flag, footprints, or left over rocket parts, then we'll know that the "one small step for mankind" occured somewhere in the Arizona desert

Just curious, but don't you think that since that time and the advances the USA has made in space flight that they wouldn't have already gone there and put the stuff in place even if they had not done it in the '60s. Come on, a good conspiracy is unable to be proven, and if the earlier space flight/moon walk was a fake, well that would be one major blunder if they hadn't fixed it by now, well before other countries started thinking about entering the space race.

Oh Yeah, forgot to tell you, they are after you now.

Kungpao Chicken for the Taikonauts

[Anonymous Coward]

My favorite quote from today's news regarding the Chinese space mission is from this story:

"They'll be able to eat shredded pork with garlic sauce and kungpao chicken," China.com said. "It will be more tasty than Western food."

Re:Kungpao Chicken for the Taikonauts

[larry bagina]

I hope their space suits can handle diarrhea!

Re:Kungpao Chicken for the Taikonauts

[Anonymous Coward]

ironically, without MSG, which was added to help it appeal to American tastes, chinese food is generally fairly bland.

Re:Kungpao Chicken for the Taikonauts

[infinite9]

"It will be more tasty than Western food."
Yeah, but will they be hungry again an hour later?

Re:Kungpao Chicken for the Taikonauts

[Anarchofascist]

"It will be more tasty than Western food."
Yeah, but will they be hungry again an hour later?

Luckily, they're only scheduled to orbit the Earth once, which takes about an hour.

knowing china

[gfody]

they have some well thought out elaborate plans already to inhabit the moon.. I don't blame them, it must be getting crowded over there.

Re:knowing china

[hattig]

The benefit that China has is that it can afford to lose a few taikonauts to accidents, etc, all in the name of exploration and to benefit the country as a whole.

The western world has no guts and won't try and take a risk any more.

Expect China to become the number one space faring race within 20 years.

Re:knowing china

[larry bagina]

That's an interesting perspective. Do you also appluad the courage of their political prisoners who don't mind having their organs harvested? Did Chernoble's victims have guts, or did the gov't not want to admit they fucked up?

In case you forgot, China is a communist country with state-run media and more censorship than michael sims can dream about. If a space shuttle explodes and kills a few taikonauts then the launch never happened.

Re:knowing china

[borroff]

Including not one, but two Chinese takeout joints. Open late, lotto tickets on sale.

Re:knowing china

[linzeal]

Is chinese a hard language to pick up? I wonder if they will need a mechatronics engineer to help design robotics for various tasks in space. I'm to the point now in life where I don't care who is making the effort to colonize space I'll join any country that can help me get the hell of this rock.

Re:knowing china

[JCholewa]

> In case you forgot, China is a communist country with state-run media and more censorship than
> michael sims can dream about. If a space shuttle explodes and kills a few taikonauts then the
> launch never happened.

While I do not disagree with the spirit of your assertion, I should note that I heard about China's government making a decision recently to broadcast a lot of this stuff live in order to foster national pride. This means that people will know in advance about each launch, and they'll notice if the government suddenly doesn't launch a planned mission, for whatever reason. Yeah, they may not be able to do stuff about it, but they won't be totally in the dark.

--
-JC

Uncertainty?

[Feint]

Imagine you are about to get into your country's first manned space mission. They are going to strap a lot of (explosive) fuel to your behind, and launch you into space. They tell you that you are supposed to make only one revolution and then come back.. or you could be up there for 24 hours.....

Exactly how comfortable do you feel as you buckle yourself in? What do you think your chances are of seeing Saturn's rings *really* close? Survival of reentry? Becoming that little satellite the Americans or Russians wave at 10 years from now when the new shuttle replacement flies for the first time?

Dominoes

[Joe the Lesser]

Next then you know, Mars won't be called the Red planet due to it's color.

Re:Dominoes

[IAR80]

I bet the first manned mission to Mars will be called "The long march".

Re:Dominoes

[Ben Hutchings]

That name is already used for a series of rockets made by Shanghai Aerospace.

MOD PARENT REDUNDANT

[Anonymous Coward]

He was beat.

Thank you for playing.

so that's how...

[VEGx]

so that's how they plan to get rid of all the dissidents!

My sig is bigger than your sig

chinese-american running space station

[peter303]

Chinese-American astronaut Ed Lu has been on the International Space Station since April and will be returning later this month in a Soyuz capsule. You can read his blog here .

Re:chinese-american running space station

[Crypto Gnome]

will be returning later this month in a Soyuz capsule

I for one am daily finding myself amazed what we've learnt to make out of Soy.

Re:Flight Time

[Fembot]

Seriously though, I'd be worried if I was the astronaut/cosmonaut/chinesenaut (or whatever the chinese call theirs) going up and they still hadnt worked out how long I was gonna be in orbit for 1 week before the launch!! Talk about leaving it til the last minute

Tranquility Base or BUST!

[CSG_SurferDude]

Actually, the scary thing is that this is an excellent first step to the Moon and then onwards and upwards to Mars.

In fact, a conservative estimate would be that they could land on the moon in less than five years. Part of what took us (U.S.) so long was all the groundwork that needed to be done. Heck, now you can go into Barnes and Noble, or any other reasonably large bookstore, and buy the official NASA documents on the space program.

And considering the how much electronics have shrunk in the past 40 years, they won't need to put so much weight into orbit, or they could use that weight for more passengers or supplies.

Re:Tranquility Base or BUST!

[oni]

And considering the how much electronics have shrunk in the past 40 years, they won't need to put so much weight into orbit, or they could use that weight for more passengers or supplies.

What percentage of the mass of a spaceship is tied up in computers? Not much I imagine. If the Apollo computers were 10 kilos (I have no idea, this is just an example) and you can shrink that to 3 kilos it's not such a big deal considering you still need the same amount of fuel and supplies.

Now advances in materials science might make a big difference.

Re:Tranquility Base or BUST!

[vidarh]

According to this page at NASA the total weight of the Apollo computer was 29.5 kg. Now, for a few things they could do if they cut say 25kg from that: Add more redundancy say to the life support system (scrubbers for the air, for instance - Apollo 13 springs to mind), add more batteries (though improved battery technology could make this moot), add some extra fuel for emergencies (or 25kg less would mean less fuel spent anyway - again Apollo 13 springs to mind)

ANYTHING that reduce mass and volume for a spacecraft will make a big difference.

Extreme Superpower Elimination Challenge!

[wwwssabbsdotcom]

With Hosts Kenny Blankenship & Vic Romano!

Is it just me...

[Schwartzboy]

Or did anybody else think that the headline could have been lifted from the Onion? Granted, it probably would have read something like "China Begins Plans Oct. 8 for Manned Space Flight on Oct. 15"...I can see some quotes from the article now.

When asked about the shortened timetable, a spokesman for the Chinese space program replied "Yeah, we're pretty sure that it'll only take about a week to get the materials together, train the crew, and whatever else. I mean, sure we've estimated some insane number of man-hours to put this thing together, but just look at the number of men we've got available! We're guessing that a whole week is going to leave us with plenty of time left over for this 'testing' and 'safety evaluation' stuff we keep hearing so much about."

In all seriousness, I've seen a post or two about the fear level associated with a country that has nukes suddenly developing spaceflight, and thought to myself "gee, what if every interested country around the world could participate in a collaborative effort to further the space exploration/colonization efforts that we've so far been working on alone, and we never had to worry about who might nuke who or whose foreign policy didn't want the other guys playing in his sandbox? We'd probably learn a lot more working together and sharing the knowledge we have, wouldn't that be cool?". Then I got really sad, because I know how realistic that kind of thing is.

Re:Is it just me...

[kobukson]

China did try very hard to get into the International Space Station Project, which is largely controlled by U.S., Russia, and the European Space Agency. But they bascially got the cold shoulder. So now China is basically saying: 'Screw you then. We'll do it on our own.'

If anyone is critical of the huge amount of nationalistic pride motivating their space enterprise, remember that there was such pride also behind the European nations's race to be first to reach the North Pole, South Pole, Mt Everest at the turn of the century during the 'Golden Age of Exploration'.

Interesting Question and a bad one-Liner

[LittleGuy]

My question is whether we'll see any semblance that the launch system can rendezvous with the ISS (and then, if it's based on Soyuz architecture, whether it can dock), or will it be too low in earth orbit.

And if it can dock, whether there's a minimum order for Kung Pao delivery. *ba da bum*

Re:Interesting Question and a bad one-Liner

[FatAlb3rt]

less of a question of "can it rendezvous", more of "will it be allowed to". it's pretty safe to assume the answer is no in both cases.

Re:Interesting Question and a bad one-Liner

[hnjjz]

One of the technologies that China has purchased from Russia is the Soyuz docking system, so Shenzhou should have a compatible docking system with the ISS. However, the inclination of Shenzhou's orbit is different from the ISS orbit. The inclination of Shenzhou's orbit is determined by the locations of land-based tracking and command stations. For a rendezvous mission with ISS, China will need to build some new tracking stations. An even bigger obstacle is the issue of US permission for docking with the ISS. The US has put in place strict regulations against any sort of cooperation with China in terms of space technologies including bans on US companies launching commercial satellites on Chinese rockets, prohibitions of the sale of any item even remotely related to space industry (Macintosh laptops were banned from being exported to China for a while), and denying visas to Chinese space scientists to visit the United States for any purpose (including attending academic conferences). So it's very unlikely that the US will allow Shenzhou to rendezvous with the ISS while it still views China as its greatest potential enemy.

Re:Interesting Question and a bad one-Liner

[LittleGuy]

Reason behind the thought was one word: Lifepod.

With the shuttle fleet grounded, if the Russians are unable to launch for whatever-reason, will the Chinese have the capability for any emergency situation?

How many orbits?

[Crolis]

The news article says they are planning a single orbit, but you know how it goes: one hour later and they will feel like they need to orbit again.

-Crolis

More outsourcing in our future...

[hirschma]

Today's story:

BEIJING, Oct. 8 -- After a decade of preparation, China will launch its first human being into space on Oct. 15 in a 90-minute flight that will orbit the Earth once, a major Chinese Web site reported in one of the most concrete signs yet that the landmark trip is imminent.

In 2013:

BEIJING, Oct. 15 - As part of a celebration of its first decade of manned space flight, China announces an agreement with the USA's NASA space agency to outsource all space-related operations. An unnamed NASA official said: "Well, they can do it cheaper than we can - we can hire three taikonauts for what it costs us to loft one astronaut - and who cares if some foreigners get killed repairing our satellites?"

In related news, all remaining astronauts have been informed that their services are no longer needed, and offered placement services for lucrative positions in the fast food industries.

Re:More outsourcing in our future...

[toxic666]

It's called the United Space Alliance and it has been around since 1996.

Re:The 60's calling..

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe they can take pictures of a U.S. landing site and show you how much of a jackass you are.

Entire Orbit

[aliens]

Hrm, does that mean I can get real Chinese food delivered to me in 10minutes? ::)

Re:Entire Orbit

[Telepathetic Man]

I wonder how much the delivery charge would be?

Re:Entire Orbit

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, did you miss out on their missile special delivery?

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

[JasonBigham]

Mercury-Redstone 3 (USA) Alan Shepard 5-May-61

Re:Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

[Eric Ass Raymond]

I bet some people were saying similar things about the Japanese car-industry - which eventually went out to beat the crap out of the original US car manufacturers.

Re:Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

[tomhudson]

Alan Shepards' flight was a 15-minute sub-orbital, AFTER the Russians/Soviets had already done the around-the-world-in-90-minutes thing. This is also an around-the-world 90-minute orbital flight, no relation to Shepards' 15 minutes of fame.

Re:Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

[JasonBigham]

They are 30+ years behind the curve...

Re:Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

[andy1307]

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

Is the t-shirt made in China, the land that invented gunpowder?

Re:Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet some people were saying similar things about the Japanese car-industry - which eventually went out to beat the crap out of the original US car manufacturers.

When the Japanese auto industry was at the same relative stage, the Japanese auto industry DID still suck and the US automotive industry was still unquestionably king. It took them at least 20 years to catch up, and in my opinion it only took the US auto industry about 10 years to match them.

The legendary build quality of Japanese automobiles is mostly that -- legend.

On top of that, the Japanese auto industry had MAJOR support from the United States to help jump-start it. No such support exists for the Chinese space program (unless you count the Clinton administration).

Re:The 60's calling..

[gfody]

I didn't write the books.. don't shoot the messenger

Re:Congrats China

[UrgleHoth]

There is a chance that the US may go back to the 60's too. And one could say that with the Russian capsules, they never left the 60's.

X-Prize

[JavaLord]

Hah, so China is on the same level as John Carmack and a few of his friends. Yep, there is a Super Power in the making.

Re:X-Prize

[Anonymous Coward]

Carmack isn't going into orbit!

Re:X-Prize

[drinkypoo]

The Chinese are going to orbit. Don't you just have to cross a certain altitude and then land without dying to win the x-prize?

Re:X-Prize

[Ben Hutchings]

The X Prize does not involve going into orbit.

Re:X-Prize

[JavaLord]

The X Prize does not involve going into orbit.

Why do you slashdot people always have to get so technical? It's not like this stuff is rocket science...

oh wait a second........

Re:X-Prize

[Anonymous Coward]

Hah, so China is on the same level as John Carmack and a few of his friends. Yep, there is a Super Power in the making.

X-Prize is suborbital, and China's already sent capsules into orbit... unlike Carmack et al.

So... China will be ahead of the US, since the US can't loft people into orbit anymore, and if Scaled Composites gets off the ground early next year, Burt Rutan will be ahead of NASA

I posted this story 3 days ago

[Anonymous Coward]

and it was rejected. BTW Go Taikonauts! has more information about the chinese space program it's a yahoo site and it's exceeded it's limit for the moment so maybe check out the google cache. Pretty interesting.

Re:I , for one, dread our new Chinesse overlords

[qbzzt]

I'm afraid this joke might become a bit stale if/when the Chinese government decides to use their new found ability to throw rocks from great heights and Tibet us. It's a far cry from manned orbit to Moon is a Harsh Mistress, but it can be done.

I know, I know, I'm paranoid - but I'm an Israeli, it's in my upbringing.

huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish the USA had a space program.

Space Flight Licensing

[Anonymous Coward]

Will they get the flight launched before SCO gets an injuction due to their blatantly ignoring SCO's ownership of space travel?

I wonder if the side of the rocket....

[Lester67]

will say "Made In China"?

Before anyone praises China...

[gz718]

Read the latest human rights report on them. They are the most repressive country on the planet. Highlights:

• Citizens lacked both the freedom to peacefully express opposition to the party-led political system and the right to change their national leaders or form of government.
• Instances of extrajudicial killings, torture and mistreatment of prisoners, forced confessions, arbitrary arrest and detention, lengthy incommunicado detention, and denial of due process.
• Severely restricted freedom of assembly and continued to restrict freedom of association and freedom of movement.
• Religious freedom remained poor and crackdowns against Muslim Uighurs, Tibetan Buddhists, and unregistered groups, including underground Protestant and Catholic groups
• Violence against women (including imposition of a birth limitation policy coercive in nature that resulted in instances of forced abortion and forced sterilization)
• The Government continued to deny internationally recognized worker rights, and forced labor in prison facilities remained a serious problem. (So that's why Walmart products are so cheap)

So pretty much you can't vote, can't complain, and can't pray for help. bUt th3y m1ght t4k3 0n micro$hl0th#@!

Re:Before anyone praises China...

[Anonymous Coward]

Religious freedom remained poor and crackdowns against Muslim Uighurs, Tibetan Buddhists, and unregistered groups, including underground Protestant and Catholic groups

I think constraining religions is only a good thing.

Re:Before anyone praises China...

[azuretek]

is it just me or is there nothing wrong with how everything there is...

1. Voting hasnt helped us "free" people much.

2. Criminals deserve torture, you're in prision for a reason.

3. So they dont have riots? thats bad?

4. I hear they just accept many religions into their own religion so does it really matter what they call themselves?

5. I dont think telling women how many children they can have in an already crowded place is very violent. There has to be some type of limit before they all run out of resources.

6. Once again, why do prisoners need rights? also, americans are lazy and weak and expect everyone to be the same. Maybe the reason the chinese get so much done is because their workers work longer hours in more hazardous fields(less cost).

I just dont see why everyone thinks china and all those other places are inhumane, I guess its just how I was raised... everyone pulls their own weight and dosent complain...

Re:Before anyone praises China...

[Anonymous Coward]

you're in prision for a reason

Yeah. In civilized countries you're there to keep you form doing further damage to the society and to prepare you for the eventual release. In barbaric countries prisons are for narrow-minded punishment and not for rehabilitation.

Re:Before anyone praises China...

[SmallFurryCreature]

That is rich coming from an american. Don't you have china as most favored trading partner? Oh, that doesn't count. Right. I suppose not. Talk is cheap after all, hurting good solid business isn't.

I bet you boycot all chinese imports as well. Oh you don't yeah I know talk is cheap, actually trying to find something still produced in the west not.

Either do something about it or shut the fuckup.

Personally I can see china for what it is, a messy dictatorship that is now doing what the rest of the world was doing a couple of decades ago. Or in the case of the US is still doing on some points. Tell me american, when exactly was the ban on mixed race marriages really lifted in all states? When was the last racial murder? When was the last person incarcerated without due process?

Re:Before anyone praises China...

[unic1]

Sounds like Bush's Amerika.

Re:Before anyone praises China...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. In civilized countries you're there to keep you form doing further damage to the society and to prepare you for the eventual release. In barbaric countries prisons are for narrow-minded punishment and not for rehabilitation

what a lame reason! since humans have not comprehended their own psychology completely, even this cannot be justified. you can never say if a person can be rehabilitated in the first place. u can take ur cock and shove it up ur ars.

IM A FRENCHMAN

[Anonymous Coward]

you insensitive gook!

I can't resist...

[Anonymous Coward]

An I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords...

Re:I , for one, dread our new Chinesse overlords

[Monk[Deviant Form]]

you are not paranoid!
you are isreali,you have DO have enemies.

i'm not too worried about the chinese government attacking "us",as a certain superpower demonstrated recently,if you want to wage a war against the wishes of the UN and in contravention of international law you just do it.
people will whine but in the long run might=right

Who do you mean...

[kitzilla]

...us or the Chinese? ;-)

On my birthday!

[trash eighty]

I hope they do launch on october the 15th, i can't think of anything else memorable happening on that day, except me being born of course :p

Re:Congrats China

[IAR80]

I wish Europe would have made it to the 60s but on the other hand is really that inportant to have maned space flights nowadays or is it just goo for publicity?

This comment from the King of Spain

[Anonymous Coward]

Pay no attention to the rabble, we control the world.

Great

[frode]

Great chineese food delivery goes orbital. I bet they'll be making devileries to the ISS by 2006.

Possible names for their space crafts:
1) The General Tso
2) The Sweet and Sour Shuttle
3) The Communist Surprise

Trying to Keep Track

[RobotRunAmok]

Um, OK, so that puts China about 40 years behind the West space-tech-wise and about 350 years behind Human Rights-wise. As for 'Fashion-wise,' well let's just say there's nothing going on that a two-episode Queer-Eye makeover and a small series of violent revolutions couldn't fix...

Re:Trying to Keep Track

[Anonymous Coward]

Are all slashdotters really this stupid or is it just you?

Re:Trying to Keep Track

[fishbowl]

"China about 40 years behind the West space-tech-wise"

Just because they waited until now does not mean they are using low tech methods. It could be quite the contrary, since they have the benefit of current technology and a clean slate (whereas all we can think to do is launch a space shuttle
that follows the same basic design as the original concept that I saw as early as 1971).

> and about 350 years behind Human Rights-wise.

Well, on one hand, the Chinese government is atrocious, and on another hand the Chinese people seem frighteningly complacent to this. But individual accounts from people who have lived there do not paint such a horrible picture at all.
I'm not willing to paint all of China with the brush that certain conservative interests want me to use.

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I, for one, welcome our new Asian conquerors.

Re:Well...

[grozzie2]

It sounds callous, but life is a bit cheaper to the Chinese govt than it is to the US govt

Actually, this is a very bad misconception. To governments, life is a propoganda tool, that is used to massage the 'will' of the masses. Reference recent history.

The loss of 7 lives in a re-entry accident is used by the government to achieve a huge (and very subtle) shift if expenditures. This is being used very effectively behind the scenes to promote the concept of scrapping the shuttle program, in the meantime, no launches, so, no money being spent on launches.

The daily loss of life overseas is being promoted as 'the cost' and a 'justifiable cost' of enforcing a foreign policy on a region that wants no part of it.

It's all how you spin it, and how the press regurgitates the spin. If you can make the masses believe that losing 7 astronauts is 'to much', then you can gain political support for an objective that doesn't include a shuttle program. If you can make the masses believe hundreds of lives are 'worth the price' to support an overseas invasion, then you can gain support for huge expenditures on that program.

Body count is just a propoganda tool, to be used when convenient, and to be swept under the rug when inconvenient. That applies to ALL governments, including the american government.

Re:Well...

[Crypto Gnome]

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Judging by NASAs recent performance Where there's a will, there's a wake.

Chinese space program pics

[finchman]

Here is the Chinese space program in all its glory.

The China Space Capsule (space.com)

The China Manned launch vehicle (SpaceDaily.com)

The China Manned Launch vehicle (SpaceDaily.com)

Re:Flight Time

[BigGerman]

I think it is simple - due to Earth rotation if you do not come down at the end of the first orbit the following ones will take you further and further from the main China where I presume all their search and rescue facilities are. In 24 hours you will be back over China again. So one-orbit plan and 24 hours (17 orbits?) backup plan seem logical.

You're wrong!!

[ashitaka]

These happened on Oct. 15:

70 BC: Virgil born.
1844: Friedrich Nietzsche born.
1908: John Kenneth Galbraith born.
1917: Mata Hari, the Dutch dancer and spy for the Germans, was executed by firing squad near Paris.
1946: Convicted Nazi war criminal Hermann Goering poisoned himself the day before he was to be executed.
1951: I Love Lucy premiered on CBS.
1991: The Senate confirmed the nomination of Clarence Thomas to the US Supreme Court by a 52 to 48 vote.

Ummm.

Maybe you're right...

Re:You're wrong!!

[trash eighty]

I Love Lucy! make the the launch the second memorable event then!

Re:I , for one, dread our new Chinesse overlords

[Anonymous Coward]

Or Gaza Strip us?

Keeping up with the Chans

[puzzled]

The United State's space program is a flabby, stagnant beauracracy. It needs an enema at the top, an exercise program in the middle, and some moral support in the rank and file. Most of all, it needs to take a long, hard look at boron/proton fusion, and get busy designing ships that can use it for swift interplanetary travel.

The fact that both China and India have space programs is beautiful to me. Remember who was first in space? Not John Glenn, but Yuri Gagarin. Perhaps NASA will recover from its existing case of cranial rectitis (hint: leaves a brown ring around your neck) when faced with a large, motivated competitor with a growing economy.

Re:Keeping up with the Chans

[Peyna]

I just wonder if it will ever get to the point that announcing a space flight would be like announcing an airplane taking off from Midway Airport?

Re:Keeping up with the Chans

[puzzled]

It'll never be that simple, but it should happen a lot more often, not cost nearly so much, and once in orbit boron/proton fusion or some similar technology should make Mars a run of a few weeks, not two years.

Re:Keeping up with the Chans

[Yanray]

space program is a flabby, stagnant beauracracy
This is true of all beuracracy. Give China time to demilitarize space operations before we pass judgement. Ever government agency in the world is slow and immobile. If you question weither beauracracy changes from country to Country; culture to Culture; religion to religion; political apparatis to political apparatus; go to the department of transportation offices in your country (s) of choice.

Re:Keeping up with the Chans

[RayBender]

Most of all, it needs to take a long, hard look at boron/proton fusion, and get busy designing ships that can use it for swift interplanetary travel.

Sound nice. Unfortunately it's looking like that kind of fusion ("advanced aneutronic fuels", because the boron-proton reaction doesn't give off a bunch of neutrons) isn't feasible, for very fundamental reasons. A damned shame, I say.

I agree with your sentiment that NASA needs to change; however, having worked there I'd say what they need most is for Congress and the Prez to provide a good goal/vision, with the $$$ to back it up.

Re:Keeping up with the Chans

[Anonymous Coward]

cranial rectitis

Also known as rectoencephaly.

Re:Keeping up with the Chans

[cje]

Remember who was first in space? Not John Glenn, but Yuri Gagarin.

John Glenn wasn't even the first American in space.

Few people remember Al Sheppard anymore. :(

Re:Keeping up with the Chans

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember who was first in space? Not John Glenn, but Yuri Gagarin.

Wrong, it was Laika :P

Re:Keeping up with the Chans

[puzzled]

Sorry, first to orbit ... Sheppard was first. I think Glenn is also the oldest in space so far ...

There goes...

[zwaffle]

... the XPRIZE!

Patent Violation

[msheppard]

Can't the US patent travelling to the moon or something, or claim copy right on the entire moon?

Oops... the Russians had a probe there first.
OOps... China doesn't care about the USPO.

M@

SARS

[Lord_Dweomer]

Great.....now we'll get the moon infected with SARS.

Yeah yeah, don't deny it, you thought it too!

Been There, Done That, Bored Now

[RobotRunAmok]

Maybe cuz I grew up in the 60's I can't help but view all these cute Slashdotters falling over themselves to praise China's space 'initiatives' with the same patronizing bemusement I normally reserve for the 14-year-olds just discovering Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd, and carrying on like someone has just invented a brand new musical note.

"Putting a Man in Space?" Great. Super. Wake me when he lands on Mars...

Re:Been There, Done That, Bored Now

[s20451]

So if it's so easy to put a man in space, how's your X prize entry going? Or are you too busy being smug?

Re:Been There, Done That, Bored Now

[RobotRunAmok]

So if it's so easy to put a man in space, how's your X prize entry going? Or are you too busy being smug?

Although I'm pretty damn busy being smug, I will take a little time to point out that I'm a *PERSON*, Andrew, and not a friggin' *NATION*.

You're not really confusing the X-prize competition with a national space program, are you?

Re:Been There, Done That, Bored Now

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Maybe cuz I grew up in the 60's I can't help but view all these cute Slashdotters falling over themselves to praise China's space 'initiatives' with the same patronizing bemusement I normally reserve for the 14-year-olds just discovering Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd, and carrying on like someone has just invented a brand new musical note.

"Putting a Man in Space?" Great. Super. Wake me when he lands on Mars...

Putting a man in space is a necessary prerequisite to putting him on Mars. We could have done it decades ago, but we lost our national will. Now someone else is giving it a shot, and maybe this time they won't say, "Oh, okay, we did something cool, now let's go home." That's why people are excited.

I can go you one better: my Dad worked for NASA during the Apollo program, and for Martin Marietta (as it was then) during Viking and the early stages of the Shuttle. I grew up surrounded by space program memorabilia, and I've always been bitter that we never lived up to the promise of those years. This is damned exciting, and I don't see why you don't see it. Maybe because you grew up in the 60's you're a bitter, jaded old fart who can't get excited about anything any more?

And you know, Zep and Floyd are still good music. Why the hell shouldn't the 14-year-olds enjoy it, if they want to? God, I hate patronizing ageism ...

Re:Been There, Done That, Bored Now

[RayBender]

Maybe cuz I grew up in the 60's I can't help but view all these cute Slashdotters falling over themselves to praise China's space 'initiatives' with the same patronizing bemusement I normally reserve for the 14-year-olds...

Maybe that smugness would be justified, IF we could get a guy up right now. Of course, at the moment we're relying on the Russians to keep the space station crewed. So call me sometime at the end of '04.

6 months in a tiny space station...

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves]

By any chance do the words "GET ME THE HELL OUT OF HERE!" appear anywhere in that blog?

What type of delay time?

[kabocox]

Not to be negative or anything, I really want them to get into space. But how many "attempts" do you think will be made before they actually get into space and back safely? Truthfully, I'd say it is alot braver stepping into a craft that has high loss rates. How many of those ships were lost at sea trying to make it across the Atlantic? Now, how often do you here of commerical shipping being "lost at sea?" I don't consider our selfs at the crossing the Atlantic phase. I'd consider that star to star travel that could take generations. We are not making the full use of our solar system. Heck we aren't making the full use of all those oceans and those deserts we should be able to think of something usefult to do with them. :)

Re:What type of delay time?

[SmallFurryCreature]

Stupid question. Just look at the first flights. Well the once we know about :-) They were safe. They send up a lot of lot of apes dogs and pigs though that ehm are not so safe anymore. Where do you think they got the shredded pork from anyway?

If the chinese even got 1 brain cell then this will have been a thoroughly tested craft. Can't afford to loose one with the eyes of the world on you.

Sure the US blown up a lot of people recently but that was after several decades of high safety. They got lax. The chinese haven't had the time yet to do that. Start worrying 1-2 decades from now when they think strapping people to several tons of explosives and setting fire to it is routine.

China's Long March past US supremacy ?

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the major flaws, perhaps, with the US democratic system is that it is predicated on a 4 year cycle of election and re-election. This tends to make planning for long-term projects politically disadvantageous to the White House incumbent who ideally wants to see "returns" during his period in office. It is not often that grand projects such as the Interstate system or the Apollo program are enacted.

China is very different. There is a single monolithic party in power. Also do not forget that this a people who have a collective ethno-genetic memory spanning thousands of years who have historically proven willing and able to plan decades and centuries ahead.

Couple the above with the fact that all 9 members of the Standing Committee of the Communist Party politburo are engineers by training and you realize that the forthcoming manned flight is not a flash-in-the-pan but part of a broader strategic decision to achieve preeminence in space.

This is part of a collective Long March by which China aims to overtake the USA in almost every field of human endeavour. This will perhaps take 50 to a 100 years - a sizeable period to the American world-view but much less so to the Chinese mindset. Given the extraordinary progress China has already made since the 1970s we would be fools to doubt their ability to go the rest of the way.

Re:China's Long March past US supremacy ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hear, hear! Spoken like a true Chinese citizen brainwashed by his party!

collective ethno-genetic memory spanning thousands of years

Indeed, a memory of thousands of years in which China ALMOST became a world power over and over and over again, but utterly failed only to be subjugated from outside forces time and time again. A memory that has created a huge chip on the Chinese collective shoulder for opportunities they failed to sieze, and will only grow when they fail yet again. Better to put them out of their eternal misery.

Re:China's Long March past US supremacy ?

[scrytch]

> This is part of a collective Long March by which China aims to overtake the USA in almost every field of human endeavour.

Yeah, one could almost call it a Great Leap Forward.

Yeah I know, feeding the trolls, bad me.

live broadcast, just why another manned mission?

[sensui]

According to some news, the launch will be broadcasted live on the state run CCTV. Everyone here at the university campus is talking about what if there is a failure. I guess Challenger, Columbia and the numerous failures are still so vivid in our mind now. Even the 92% success rate of the Long March rocket claimed by the Chinese authority does not make me more comfortable. Afterall, what is the real significance of a manned mission like this? Russia, the USA have all done manned space flight, long long time ago. This is not all about nation's pride? Give me a break!

And just why China is spending this huge amount of money into a manned mission instead of putting more money into helping the kids in remote areas to go to school and reduce the poverty rate in the rural areas?

As a Chinese, I am not really proud of this event at all.

As an earthling, I wish we are landing on the Mars by now.

Timeline

[Damn_Canuck]

It all depends on how quickly China decides to do all of its actions. It took the US space program more or less an entire decade in order to go from sub-orbital to orbital to the moon. How quickly is China going to push things? If they can learn from the past mistakes and go forth with a solid program, why wouldn't the space race come back? It may not be the best thing for the US right now, but wait until they have their new vehicle designed, built, and then redesigned and rebuilt due to the beuracracy, and then the race will be back on.

Reinventing the wheel

[John Whorfin]

Can /.er speak to this:

Are the Chinese reinventing the wheel here or are they actively using US and Russian experience.

I mean sending a guy up to do an orbit sounds to me (as a total layman in space programs) as a "we doing all this ourselves from the ground up" method.

I mean do they have to incinerate 3 astronauts in a oxygen rich capsule too?

If this is the case, it's kind of sad that they can't build on the experience already in-place. I mean this is science after all.

Yeah yeah, I know I being naive... we can't let them slanty-eyed commies near our military-industrial space-based jobs program, but damn - seems a shame.

Re:Reinventing the wheel

[fredrik70]

They;'re using a modified soyuz capsule, believe the lifter is all theirs though. ALso heard they got a fair bit of russians working for them.

Re:Reinventing the wheel

[Anonymous Coward]

You wouldn't believe how sick I am listening to this "reinventing the wheel" bullshit. Did the americans reinvent the wheel when they launched their first people into space months after Soviet did it? What do you expect China to do? Skip LEO and the moon and go for Mars right away? What is wrong with Slashdot today? Insightful posts modded as troll, trolls modded as insightful, and now the "reinventing the wheel"! Aaaarrrghhhh... :-(

Re:Reinventing the wheel

[hnjjz]

China has purchased some technologies from Russia while developing the others in house. According to various web sites (space.com, spacedaily.com, etc), the Russians sold to China a bare bones Soyuz command/descent module with all equipments stripped out. The Shenzhou has generally the same configuration as the Soyuz, with a orbital module, a command/descent module, and a service module. However the Shenzhou is bigger than the Soyuz, and other than the command/descent module, has very different physical appearance. The Shenzhou service module has 4 main thrusters while the Soyuz service module has only 1 main thruster. The Shenzhou orbital module has its own solar panels and thrusters and is capable of operating and manuevering by itself after separating from rest of the craft (e.g. after the descent module has returned to Earth). On the other hand, the Soyuz orbital module has no independent power source or manuevering ability and is useless once separated from the descent module. So yes the Chinese are building from experiences learned from the Russia program and has made some significant improvements. When the Shenzhou do become fully operational (meaning not just lofting a single astronaut for one orbit in a test flight), it should be more capable than the Russian Soyuz and much cheaper than the American shuttle.

Check your phraseology

[Anonymous Coward]

The word "manned" is sexist. Please, in future, refer to such flights as "staffed missions".

Also, we should concentrate more effort on the design of non-phallic spacecraft, in order to encourage more women into space exploration. If science proves that a non-phallic design is inherently unworkable then perhaps space travel should be abandoned altogether, as this simply indicates that there is no need for women to travel in space - otherwise there would be a gender-acceptable spacecraft design. Perhaps the male's perceived need to leave the confines of his mother-planet is simply one of the infinite number of ways in which he is inherently inferior?

Re:Check your phraseology

[Anonymous Coward]

Onward ho toward a feminist algebra.

Re:Check your phraseology

[Anonymous Coward]

It should be called 'sapien-equipped' mission, just in case any cyborgs/robots/etc. are suing for discriminating against them.

Re:Check your phraseology

[Crypto Gnome]

The word "manned" is sexist. Please, in future, refer to such flights as "staffed missions".

"This mission has a large staff. I'm sure I could find a suitable position for you, working on that staff."

Re:The 60's calling..

[Anonymous Coward]

Your second link goes through and disproves point by point the moon hoax people. They say we really did go to the moon..

But then they say NASA covered up the glass ruins they found there.

So apparently they're a whole different batch of nuts, but not nuts that support your statement.

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Where there's a will, there's a way. In the 60's, America had the will, so we went ahead and put people on the moon. Today, there is no will, and despite the amount of talk about getting back into space, there won't be a way. Not unless our collective consciousness is stimulated beyond our fear of the dangers of spaceflight. People die, and Americans just can't stand that.

Teleport to China - their collective consciousness has the will and so they will find a way to close the 40 year gap in space flight far more quickly. They have the advantage of Soviet engineering, computing advances, materials advances, etc. The Chinese also are more prepared to handle loss of life. It sounds callous, but life is a bit cheaper to the Chinese govt than it is to the US govt.

I believe the Chinese will close the gap in 10 years.

Obligatory Business Plan

[BigBadBri]

1. Make big firework
2. Tie little yellow fella to top of firework
3. Light blue touch paper, Profit!, and retire.

Re:Low gravity eating? not a problem.

[DMCBOSTON]

Well, look at it this way. If you place a hamburger in front of you, carefully, it won't go anywhere. Blow on it and the wind would be enough for it to sail away. It will probably come apart, because there's nothing to prevent that from happening. If you replace the burger with a peanut butter and jelly sandwich it will fly away, but it won't come apart. It's glued together. So, if you stick to (heh) sticky food, you can scoop it off the plate with a Spork (of course). It will stick to the plate AND the Spork. Then it will stick to the roof of your mouth. So, it seems that a bowl of beef stew will become God's own mess but Jello might not. Just think how difficult it is to get some stuff off dishes in the sink. I mean fresh, not 3 days old... So, sticky food on a plate could work. As far as the action/reaction forces are concerned, if it's on the plate and you are holding it, it all balances out. You don't go flying off into a bulkhead or something. But of course, IANAnA.

Alternate names...

[Anonymous Coward]

The Column A

and

The Column B

Amerika? or USSR.

[unic1]

Until someone uses that right to bear arms and blow away BUSH and his CRONIES there will be no safety in this world. IMHO the world was a safer place when the USSR was still alive and kicking. Still Bush is bringing back the practices of the KGB so Amerika and comrade Bush has taken their place. Unfortunately there's no-one with the military might to keep him in check. I used to admire America with there freedom's and constitution, but now I wouldn't even visit the place let alone live there. I might be overheard critisizing the government and end up in Amerika's concentration camp in Cuba. OH! Wait. I probably just set off a dozen echelon alarms, so I WAS overheard. Let the FLAMES start.

Re:Amerika? or USSR.

[Anonymous Coward]

Where are you from? You sound like any other roudy college student in the US.

Yes, there is a sad state of politics today. The US Constitution (and subsequent ammendments) was put in place so that even democracy had a check of some sorts. It isn't legal for the citizens to hold a vote to take away the right for Jews to vote.

However, if the judicial branch, the legislative branch, and the executive branch are all alligned with views of what is right, and the majority of Americans also hold that view (operating under the assumption that current politics does have a majority support), then there isn't a whole lot that can be done to protect threatened minorities. Good people finding out that banks don't want their business because they are black-listed is just one example of a minority group who has been harmed by the current system.

The majority is willing to accept a few false positives to prevent any false negatives.

Congress is free to define what due process is (this has been upheld by the Supreme Court many times). This means that if the Patriot Act says that wiretaps can be issued without a warrent, then that is legal (at least as long as the Patriot Act is not overturned for being unconstitutional in another sense).

Even Jefferson called the US Constitution an expirement. He thought that after a while the citizenry would have to rise up in revolt and try again. Under his own reasoning the citizenry should have rights to posess the firepower necessary to take back any lost freedoms.

Depends where they stop

[Anonymous Coward]

They've been talking about going to the moon. If they walk on it, that's gonna kinda burst our bubble here in the U.S.

But according to Zubrin, implementing Mars Direct isn't significantly harder than going to the Moon. Either can be done with a Saturn V class rocket. Let a couple taikonauts walk on Mars, and watch the U.S. space program take off like a, er, rocket. Maybe the cold war is over, but no way are red-blooded Americans going to put up with a bunch a commies beating us to another planet.

what is their drive?

[LuxFX]

Ok let's tally this up:

• Apr. 12, 1961 - USSR sends man into space
• May 5, 1961 - USA sends man into space
• July 20, 1969 - USA lands on moon
• Dec. 19, 1972 - USA decides they have had enough of the moon
• Feb. 1, 2003 - Columbia disaster immediately prompts the question of replacing manned missions entirely with computerized vehicles
• Oct. 15, 2003 - China increases their frantic pace to join the Space Age by putting a man in space

Ok, we've "been there, done that" for 40-odd years. Now suddenly it's not enough for China that they join the Space Age, but they are doing it at a pace that

1) seems absurd when compared to the decreasing interest by existing space-going countries, and
2) makes them look like they are racing against the clock.

It really makes you wonder, do they know something we don't?

Re:what is their drive?

[dodgyville]

Your timeline was somewhat LACKING.

Try:
Oct 57: USSR launches first spacecraft.
Nov 57: USSR launches first animal into space.
Jan 59: USSR's Lunik I misses moon and becomes first spacecraft to travel beyond Earth's orbit (and around the Sun)
Sep 59: USSR's Lunik II becomes first spacecraft to reach the moon.
April 61: USSR launches first man into space.
63: USSR launches first woman into space.
65: USSR has first space walk.
Jul 69: USA lands first man on the moon.
70: USSR Venera 7 first to land on Venus
71: USSR launches Salyut (first space station)
72: USA first to Jupiter

I think first man in space is more important than first man on the moon.

Thought for the day

[tekiegreg]

Does it amuse anyone that 2 out of the three nations that have ever launched a human being are, or have been Communist? I think it's time to start reading up on Marx :-p

Try comparing......

[reality-bytes]

Compare the Chinese capsule system with an early Russian Soyuz A capsule.

The Chinese claim that their capsule was designed in-house. "It was all me own work guvnor!"

i wonder if

[waspleg]

their shuttles will explode into multiple colours... ours tend to only be one...

(duck)

With Bush and his ilk....

[jotaeleemeese]

... spectorating all that rubish about militarizing space, the Moon begins to look like an attractive strategic location.

It may give a huge military strategic advantage to its "owner".

If fear is what is going to get us out of this planet, soo be it. The sooner space travel becomes a reality the better.

Not Funny: Fascist Nation Makes Leap Into Space

[reporter]

Definitely, the Chinese advancement into space is alarming because the Chinese space agency is an integral part of the military agencies in China. By contrast, NASA in the USA is a civilian effort. The MSNBC article reports that the Chinese space effort is super-secretive and that its astronauts receive training via a military program.

As well, you can be sure that Taiwan supplied China with many of the key technologies that accelerated its space program. Numerous Taiwanese living in the USA have been arrested over the years on charges of spying on behalf of mainland China. Some of those arrests involved the theft of American aerospace technology.

To understand why the Chinese space effort is ominous, you need to read no further than the article, "China Detains Health Official for Publicizing AIDS Coverup". Within the same month that the Chinese express fascist pride at their ability to challenge democracies like the USA in space technology, the Chinese arrested and imprisoned a person who revealed an AIDS coverup. This person revealed information that the Chinese were trying to sell AIDS-tained blood products to Americans in 1993-1994.

... from the desk of the reporter

the

[Anonymous Coward]

communism - 2
democracy - 1

there is no inconsitancy in reporting here!

[Anonymous Coward]

One orbit takes 24 hours. You go up, wait for the the earth to rotate completely once, and then go back down. You have no business reporting on science if you can't understand that.

Re:there is no inconsitancy in reporting here!

[Anonymous Coward]

One orbit does NOT take 24 hours. The space shuttle orbits the earth once approx. every 90 minutes.

Oh gee

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no.. i'm so worried. It's not like there's ever been some kind of bloodthirsty, insane, military-controlled, mass-murdering, nominally "communist" fascist government in space before. Nope.

Especially not one in the progress of frantic economic and subversive jockeying with the United States that always looms at the edge of outright warfare. Nopers.

And ESPECIALLY not one with nuclear weapons. Had, for example, the geographically largest country in the world been in almost-open war for 50 years with the rest of the world, and had they been able to get into space (you know, hypothetically) that wouldn't have been so bad since at least they wouldn't have had nuclear weapons, like China does. Just think what the combination of nuclear weapons and a space program could mean. Oh my. We're all doomed.

90min vs 24hrs

[AJWM]

Ninety minutes is the minimum flight time, since China has no water recovery fleet and the vehicle isn't design for splash down. Assuming they want it to land back in China, it has to go at least once around.

That may be all they're planning on. With more than a couple of orbits the ground track will be such that they can't land in China until the Earth and orbit track synch up again. I haven't looked at the likely orbital inclination to figure it out, but that could well be nearly 24 hours (16 or 17 orbits) after launch.

Presumably if all goes well during the first orbit, and they have the consumables (power, O2, etc) aboard, they could go for further orbits, but they may plan on taking it cautiously.

Welcome

[corgicorgi]

Welcome China...to the 1970s.

(from SNL)

It's a trick!

[FurryFeet]

For all of you deriding the Chinese... don't be so sure. Those chinese are cagey. Remember the Tsien was supposed to be a space station... until they mounted those rockets on it and beat us to Europa.
Personally, I think that dastardly Fu Manchu is behind all of this. He might be trying to contact his long lost brother, Ming the Merciless.
Wait, that's the alarm clock. Time to wake up. See you later.

A New Treasure Fleet?

[74Carlton]

If China decides to go into space the way they went to sea in the 1400's (64 ships, some *huge*, 28,000 men!) this could be very interesting indeed, see article.

Re:A New Treasure Fleet?

[Crypto Gnome]

If China decides to go into space the way they went to sea in the 1400's

Yeah, and it's all *real interesting* until a handfull of freak circumstances back home torch off their rampant superstitions and they mothball their entire oceangoing discovery/trade missions and before you know it Columbus "discovers" America.

Hopefully they've learnt from their mistakes. It's not enough to boldly go where no man has gone before if the moment you return your entire civilization shuts down its borders and forgets the entire thing ever happenned.

Independent Space Flight is Always Cool

[Target Practice]

I read an article on New Scientist, and I guess it sums up the coolness of this flight:

'Xie Guangxuan, director of China Rocket Design Department, told the Chinese news web site Sina.com: "China's space technology has been created by China itself. We may have started later than Russia and the US, but it's amazing how fast we've been able to do this."'

Also, remember that stunt Brazil pulled a few months back? The big cheese of these events is that people are getting more interested in space flight, and so, as the others have commented, the world will be spurred into another space race - hopefully culminating in a serious funding increase for international space programs.

RSN

[istartedi]

Slashdot still needs a RSN category (see my previous post) but this flight is certainly a lot more likely than a 20 fold improvement in solar cell efficiency.

Only trouble is, I proposed that the icon for the RSN Promis Fulfilled category be a cash register with vapor coming out of it. Since the Chinese aren't selling anything here (yet) that seems inappropriate now.

Then again, if this succeeds they will eventually get all kinds of economic spinoffs from it.

From the bitterness department: How much longer would this have taken if Bill Clinton and some dirty associates at Loral Systems hadn't sold classified missile technology? The Clinton admin did on a smaller scale what the German rocket scientists did for the US. They should name their first space station after Bill Clinton.

From the Wall Street department: This continues to prove that the "China as export market" theory used by Free Traders is full of holes. China is so large that it can create its own home grown industries in just about anything now. Yes, there will be some opportunities, but not nearly as much as some predicted. Yes. You can stop drooling about the "billion customers" because you will be competing with Local Industry that gets there first, and has a distinct advantage. Not that it can't be done mind you. There's not too much to stop the US from doing to China what Japan did to the US in the 70s with cars, but it's not as easy as just "opening China". We actually have to make something that the Chinese can afford and will be willing to buy. Imagine that!

To elaborate further, this will really be a kick to the whole Chinese aerospace industry. Could there be a Chinese answer to Boeing in the future? If I were an aerospace incumbent, I'd be quaking in my boots right now. I'd probably even offer discounts to the Chinese just to keep them from competing in aerospace. Boeing, Airbus, etc... If the Chinese go into that business then short, Short, SHORT the aerospace stocks!

Re:RSN

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, since the system is basically Russian hardware with updated avionics little of what they may have snarfed from Loral would matter.

Have you counted the number of chinese nationals in technical areas in the US since 1984? Tech transfer was done long before wayward willy was in office.

If you want to be pissed at presidents in this area then Grampa Ronny and Daddy Bush are the two biggest offenders.

It's all Russian based hardware with asian rim electronics/avionics updates.

This piece says, "Property of the US Go..."

[http101]

Before we have an uncontrolled explosion of crap, much like the internet, we need to declare a World Department of Space Exploration that is in charge of scheduling launches, arrivals, and trajectories. If we don't establish a system of space management, we could in fact be increasing our odds of having more debris scattered across our states. Anyone remember the mess and legal problems with the Discovery shuttle explosion? The last thing I need is a hunk of the cockpit landing on my hood as I drive down the highway on my way to pickup my grandmother from the airport.

Re:This piece says, "Property of the US Go..."

[payndz]

Before we have an uncontrolled explosion of crap, much like the internet, we need to declare a World Department of Space Exploration that is in charge of scheduling launches, arrivals, and trajectories.

[Oblig Trek reference]

And we can call it the 'United Earth Space Probe Agency', or UESPA for short. Eventually, the name will be changed to 'Starfleet'.

Re:This piece says, "Property of the US Go..."

[jameskojiro]

Yeah amazingly they took all the pieces of Discovery and put them back together and it is sitting right now at the Kennedy Space Center...

You probably meant Colombia disaster.....

I'll forgive you this once...

Nuclear Energy!

[lp_bugman]

We do have good propulsion systems that use Nuclear Energy the problem is that sending radioactive mather in a space craft is restricted because is considered unsafe to the general pupulation (in the case of a space craft blowing up in low orbit or during takeoff/entry) and the lack of gravity is not a problem. there are machines designed to simulate gravity on space.

Creating a moon base of operations is what the Human Race needs. To start populating the space with real space stations out of earth gravity ring and colonizing Mars. Our pupulation is groing and the resources in this rock are not unlimited. We need to do something about it NOW that we can.

One of the bigest problems with NASA is the fact that its budget is way to small (compare it to the US Army) it's something in the range of 1/1000

what if?

[The Lynxpro]

What if China claims the United States never landed on the Moon in 1969 after they successfully have their probe orbit the Moon? What is the U.S. going to do? I'm sure the Chinese probe will have modern surveilance equipment on board. And yes, I know, the probe launch will follow China's John Glenn-esque mission that is the first up.

I'd like to point out I'm not advocating that our government faked the Apollo Moon missions (ala *Capricorn One*), but I will find it interesting if China proclaims this...

Re:what if?

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that the United States placed a mirror on the Moon so that we could accuratly measure the distance between the Earth and the Moon, and the fact that you can hit that mirror with a laser and get a signal back proves we went to the Moon. And this is not even meantioning the fact that with a high powered telescope you can see the flag.

Satellite photo of Launch Site

[Target Practice]

Most Impressive, I'd say... I can identify the assembly hanger and the launch pad (see the two tall buildings?), but besides that, I don't know enough about it to make a guess. Any thoughts?
http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/zoo mviewer/ind ex.php?display_img=chinaprelaunch

China's space program is based on mostly 1 thing..

[Anonymous Coward]

Espionage.

The rest is from deals with the USSR, not Chinese innovation.

The USA under Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft might be a far cry from the American ideal of freedom but as far as fascism goes they are rank amateurs compared to the PRC.

Murderous China in the manned space business should be cause for alarm, not celebration.

Re:Not Funny: Fascist Nation Makes Leap Into Space

[kobukson]

To understand why the Chinese space effort is ominous, you need to read no further than the article, "China Detains Health Official for Publicizing AIDS Coverup". Within the same month that the Chinese express fascist pride at their ability to challenge democracies like the USA in space technology, the Chinese arrested and imprisoned a person who revealed an AIDS coverup.

You mean, sort of how like the Bush Administration leaked the identity of a covert CIA agent when her husband revealed a coverup about the war in Iraq??

Yes

[brunes69]

They know how to run a proper space program.

The US, as evidenced by the huge boondoggle that is the ISS, the continued use of the outdated shuttle program, and not even maintaining proper saftey standards, does not.

90 minute tapes

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously the flight is 90 minutes since that is the maximum sensible size for a tape to be used in a walkman.

maybe they don't know

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe they just don't know how long the rocket
will take to fall back down to earth, or how
long the man can live in that rickety rocket.

Commie chinese government is sexist

[Anonymous Coward]

MANNED?! As in 'unwomanned'? That's just great, every time a new technology comes along it's always the women who are deprived of the right to become the pioneer. It's just like women's space programmes in 1960s all over again. BOYCOTT SEXIST CHINESE GOVERNMENT!!!

Re:Commie chinese government is sexist

[badman99]

Why are female astronaughts so ugly anyway ? Reminds me of engineering chicks at UNI.....

Future history

[Anonymous Coward]

2010: China puts a man on the moon
American reaction: "Yeah yeah, we did that in the 60's."

2020: China has single-stage reusable launch vehicle for cheap flights into space
American reaction: "Yeah yeah, we did that in 2015."

2030: China puts man on Mars, first lunar colony begins
American reaction: "Yeah yeah, we could have done taht in 2025, if we had funding"

2040: China's orbital platforms simultaneously knock out the entire US satellite system. US military made obsolete by Chinese orbital lasers"
American reaction: "We, for one, welcome our new Chinese conquerers!"

Maybe China will motivate Nasa

[Anonymous Coward]

Today a professor told me that he spent the past summer working at Nasa, and that the meetings he attended were the most unproductive of any he has ever had. And, he also said that the people in one of the many buildings on campus did not know what was going on with other groups in the same building, let alone what was going on in the rest of the organization. Nasa is a bloated bureacracy and it needs a serious overhaul. I can only hope that the Chinese succeed and continue to explore space to motivate Nasa.

odds

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got 15:1 odds that the Chinese launch is a failure. Rumors are that their launch platform failed as recently as 2001. Any takers?

Real easy way to find out

[Guppy06]

"China is working toward launching a manned space flight Real Soon Now(tm). Many news sites have stories suggesting it could be as soon as a week away."

PRC doesn't have access to the numerous ground tracking stations that NASA has access to for its manned missions. In order to keep in touch with the capsule, the People's Army-Navy has some communications ships whose primary purpose for being are to be communications relays. When these ships leave port for points around the globe, it's a pretty good sign that a Chinese launch goes from "Real Soon Now" to "Any Minute Now."

Arthur Clarke

[Bob Vila's Hammer]

It looks as though Arthur Clarke may be able to correctly predict the future. The Chinese Space Organization in his 2001 series books was of such prominence that it outshined every other administration. It looks like China is off to a good start on that path.

The schedule in his books pertained to their level of achievement reaching a profound pinnacle within 60 years(the story of 2061, 3rd book in the series). That timeframe from today is absolutely possible.

Re:Not Funny: Fascist Nation Makes Leap Into Space

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a big difference.

The Chinese official who orchestrated an attempt to sell AIDS-tainted blood products to the Americans was promoted by the Chinese government. The Chinese applauded his business acumen.

The American official who leaked the name of the CIA operative is being sought by the Justice Department for arrest, prosecution, and imprisonment. Two very different value systems: Western system versus Chinese system.

Which system do you prefer? I prefer the Western one.

The U.S. Response to China's New Space Ambition

[kobukson]

- Hollywood will come out with a new blockbuster movie loosely based on '2001: A Space Odessey'. HAL 9000 will be instead HAN 9000, a supercomputer that speaks Mandarin, plays Chinese chess, and of course, runs on Red Flag Linux. It'll control a bunch of Mechanotronics that do zero-gravity Kung-Fu with a Taikonaut played by Jet Li.

- Finally Tom Clancy will have a new 'Evil Empire' to replace the former USSR with in his books.

Re:The U.S. Response to China's New Space Ambition

[jameskojiro]

That would be so awesome I would watch that movie!

Of course mabye HAN 9000 could be voiced by Jackie Chan!!!

Let's stop explorin'

[Uncle Barnard's Star]

Do we really need more manned explorations? If all we want to know is whether there's life on Mars, all we need to do is to send a next-generation AIBO to do the diggin'. What we need is the colonization and commercialization of space (beyond the satellite business).

Funny how. . .

[blah1019]

just a few short years ago our illustrious government was tripping over itself to sell sensitive missile and computer technology to China for a handful of campaign contributions and a fat bank account. Now lokky here, China done got themselves a space program. Thanks Bill! Nothing and I mean absolutely nothing good will come of this.

FUCK YOU MODS

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoever modded this "insightful" should be stripped of their mod points and raped repeatedly with a rusty spike. IN THE ASS

China's space program recovers from disaster

[Anonymous Coward]

Quoth a story in the Washington Post, the legendary Chinese inventor Wan Hoo made a fatal manned launch attempt some 600 years ago, strapping rockets under his chair. However, as a single-seater, it would not qualify for the X Prize. The Shenzhou 5, to be flown next week, aims to correct this defect by having 3 seats strapped into a rocket.

This is BAD NEWS

[rice_burners_suck]

I think they're sending it up to drop bombs on something.

They didn't invade

[Anonymous Coward]

The US did not invade these countries after WW2, not even with the CIA. Nicaragua is very bad off due to the Sandinista occupation and its war during the 1980s.

Re:They didn't invade

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

I don't think you know your history very well.

Ever heard of something called Iran-Contra? US did invade with the CIA (of course, I'm not implying that they invaded with their military). Check out this link: The history of U.S. intervention in Nicaragua.

While you are at it, here are all the US interventions in the last hundread years or so:

A history of U.S. intervention in Latin America and the Caribbean

A Brief History of U.S. Interventions: 1945 to the Present

Hope you learn something...

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:They didn't invade

[Anonymous Coward]

"Ever heard of something called Iran-Contra? US did invade with the CIA "

No, the Soviets invaded. The US merely helped nationalist rebels.

"Check out this link: The history of U.S. intervention in Nicaragua. "

I've been there before. That is actually a neo-Soviet site (run by a branch of the Soviet government.... until the USSR fell) There is no truth or objective analysis on it; only genocidal hatemongering. If you love the gulag...

The other two sites were also neo-Stalinist. Of course they saw nothing wrong with Soviet imperialism in the third world, and they were especially mad when the U.S. helped the countries defend against the aggression.

Now, find some objective sites, with objective news. The only thing to learn from sites that are 100% fictional is how deluded a tiny fringe is.

Chomsky has nothing to do with anything

[Anonymous Coward]

"What USA and others are doing is what Noam Chomsky roughly referred to as "socializiation of debt"

Chomsky has no talent whatsoever for accurately describing anything politically or socially with any degree of accuracy.

"I predict that the collapse of the developing countries due to debt might cause the collapse of capitalism"

Capitalism will never collapse: free trade and the people having control over their own lives is a natural state that things gravitate to. The only time it goes away is when fascist dictators take over, but eventually even the statues of Lenin get smashed down and freedom returns.

Re:Chomsky has nothing to do with anything

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Chomsky has no talent whatsoever for accurately describing anything politically or socially with any degree of accuracy.

lol... I guess this is the case of a fool dismissing someone intelligent because he couldn't understand a word that was said...

Capitalism will never collapse: free trade and the people having control over their own lives is a natural state that things gravitate to.

That's what all you capitalists like to believe. Anyway, there are many reasons it won't happen but I'll just cite one: class war. Capitalism will result in wealth being hoarded by a few. It's already happening but it will get worse. There will come a point when the lower classes, who always outnumber the upper classes, will overthrow the system. It's inevitable... On another note, if you think capitalism is "natural", how come it didn't exist 500 years ago? If you look at capitalism from a historical perspective, its life is so short to be meaningless. Fedualism, monarchy, and theocracies have lived longer. Mind you, some of these aren't economic systems. However, you can't practice capitalism with these systems (eg. you can't have capitalism and monarchy because monarchy limits property based on blood).

The only time it goes away is when fascist dictators take over...

Actually you can practice fascism on top of capitalism (as Nazis and Fascists (in Italy) did). Fascism is not the enemy of capitalism; socialism and to some extent anarchism are!

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:Chomsky has nothing to do with anything

[Anonymous Coward]

"lol... I guess this is the case of a fool dismissing someone intelligent because he couldn't understand a word that was said"

Actually, Chomsky is an authority on linguistics. Outside of this field, he lies about everything in an effort to promote fascism, or even anti-semitism.

"Actually you can practice fascism on top of capitalism (as Nazis and Fascists (in Italy) did). Fascism is not the enemy of capitalism; socialism and to some extent anarchism are! "

The USSR was socialist and fascist, as was Nazi Germany. Fascism is the friend of socialism: under both, the elites control the economy and the people have no say.

Socialism (i.e fascism) on top of capitalism is no capitalism at all: if the elites control it all, how can their be economic freedom?

"That's what all you capitalists like to believe. Anyway, there are many reasons it won't happen but I'll just cite one: class war"

"Class war" only exists where it is promoted by bigots and other ignorant folk. It is like "race war": intelligence and knowledge is its enemy.

"Capitalism will result in wealth being hoarded by a few."

To a much lesser degree than socialism.

"On another note, if you think capitalism is "natural", how come it didn't exist 500 years ago? "

It did. For thousands of years. Any time you found merchants or traders who were able to trade for the actual value of things with little harassment by greedy government elites. It goes back to prehistory.

Re:Chomsky has nothing to do with anything

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Actually, Chomsky is an authority on linguistics. Outside of this field, he lies about everything in an effort to promote fascism, or even anti-semitism.

I find it funny how you guys always revert to the anti-Semite argument. Anyone critical of Isreal is out there to kill all Jews huh?

The USSR was socialist and fascist, as was Nazi Germany.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Fascism and socialism are distinct systems. They don't even get along.

Socialism (i.e fascism) on top of capitalism is no capitalism at all: if the elites control it all, how can their be economic freedom?

This statement pretty much solidies your lack of knowledge on this matter (since you equate socialism with fascism). In any case, to answer you question, you can practise fascism on top of capitalism because fascism deals with politics only--it does not go into economics. Socialism, on the other hand, deals with both politics and economics. Since capitalism is an economic system, you can't practice socialism with it (they have contradictory ideologies when it comes to economics). You can easily practice fascism with capitalism. Fascists and anyone belonging to their ideology, which is pretty much everyone since others are killed off, are free to do whatever they want on the economic side. Their freedoms are only limited in politics.

Nazi Germany, for example, was pretty much run by private entrepreneurs, and other private businesses. There was very little centralization of the economy. What WAS centralized was the political elements. So, if you spoke against the government, you could be jailed; but if you just happily ran your business without getting into politics, you were perfectly fine.

"Class war" only exists where it is promoted by bigots and other ignorant folk.

Really? They should give you a Nobel Prize for that discovery ;)

To a much lesser degree than socialism.

Less than Stalinism, yes...

It did. For thousands of years. Any time you found merchants or traders who were able to trade for the actual value of things with little harassment by greedy government elites. It goes back to prehistory.

Only YOU must be following that definition of capitalism. Even capitalists themselves do not consider capitalism to have existed more than a few hundread years ago. You also seem to mix up trade and capitalism. Trade is not the same thing as capitalism--or did you not know that before?

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Lets explore some more!

[LuckyStarr]

we especially need colonization if we want to
survive.

there are many dangers we face by just being on
this planet. to name a few: asteroids, comets,
labile weather conditions, solar flares, etc.

if we spread to other planets, we create a much
higher bio-diversity than it can be achieved on
earth AND in case of a cataclysm mankind will
survive!

You've been wrong... well D'uh!

[Anonymous Coward]

"as long as USA is out on its Imperialist adventures,"

The US has not engaged in any acts of imperialism since before WW2. Before then, there were plenty of imperialist adventures.

"My history is weak but I "

Now that is the understatement of the century!

Re:You've been wrong... well D'uh!

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

The US has not engaged in any acts of imperialism since before WW2. Before then, there were plenty of imperialist adventures.

Clearly you have no idea what imperialism is... The present war in Iraq, for example, is nothing more than imperialist action.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

ku.edu

[Anonymous Coward]

The ku.edu site is very funny. Time after time, they use the term "popular" and "democratic" for dictatorships. It is very pro-Soviet: anywhere where the old USSR held colonial sway, they call it a free paradise.

The people of the former Soviet colonies beg to differ from these conclusions.

No need to overthrow Kuwait

[Anonymous Coward]

"you held to your principles (i.e. ended up overthrowing all despotic, totalitarian, etc regimes starting with Kuwait)"

There is no justification for overthrowing Kuwait just because the U.S. does not like the government it chose. That would be imperialism.

There was much justification for overthrowing Saddam, as he was an imperialist who attacked his neighboring countries, the US, and swore to invade Israel and exterminate the Jews. He refused to stop the aggression, so after great length of giving him a chance, he was overthrown.

Free State is not right-wing

[Anonymous Coward]

"The Free State Project is supposed to be liberatarian-right"

The Free State project is libertarian. Period. It is not right-wing, since the libertarian movement rejects the strong state abuses of the right.

"In addition, you seem to imply that you support imperialist wars"

Where did he support imperialist wars?

Re:Not Funny: Fascist Nation Makes Leap Into Space

[Anonymous Coward]

Reporter, stop posting as an AC when you reply.

We are talking about China, right?

[blah1019]

Most of you think this is really cool. You think China is doing this for the good of it's people? or to further technology that they will share with the world? or simply to scale that mountain because it is there? . It's China. Nothing favorable, from the United States point of view, will come of this. China can be monitored on the Earth, who will be doing that in space? You enjoy the thought of China having the ability to put whatever they want in space without our knowledge? Doesn't give me a warm fuzzy.

Chomsky the anti-semite

[Anonymous Coward]

"I find it funny how you guys always revert to the anti-Semite argument."

This is because Chomsky's writings about Israel are based on anti-semitic hatred

Anyone critical of Isreal is out there to kill all Jews huh?"

Only if they hate Israel for anti-semitic reasons.

"You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Fascism and socialism are distinct systems. They don't even get along. "

You have no idea what you are talking about, and do not know history. Not only do they get along famously, sometimes they are one and the same (as with Stalin).

"Nazi Germany, for example, was pretty much run by private entrepreneurs, and other private businesses. There was very little centralization of the economy"

I guess it wasn't fascist then. The dictionary of fascism mentioned "A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls".

However, we know Nazi Germany, under its national Socialist government, actually did have economic centralization.

Yes, "class war" is an artificial creation of Marxists.

"You also seem to mix up trade and capitalism. Trade is not the same thing as capitalism--or did you not know that before?

Capitalism is nothing more than free trade: the people decide. Socialism is trade controlled by dictators, often against the interests of the people. Free trade = capitalism.

"This statement pretty much solidies your lack of knowledge on this matter (since you equate socialism with fascism). "

Socialism and fascism are not the same. In fact, socialism is a subset of fascism since socialism is fascist control of economic affairs. While socialists typically do get involved with other matters of fascism (such as racial genocide), this is not part of the definition of socialism.