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The only times I find myself booting into Windows is to play video games or watch media files that I can't find Linux players for...

Might I suggest CrossOver. It allows you to view QuickTime, Windows Media Player, and Shockwave files under Linux. It works great, support is excellent, and they are very serious about offering refunds if it doesn't meet your needs. I've been extremely pleased with it.

(I'm not affiliated with CodeWeavers, just a very happy customer.)

OS/2's Windows support was hokey. By the time Windows programs were really taking off, they were for Win32s (Win95-style, not Win3x). Those programs worked poorly at best under OS/2 if they worked at all. Good Win32s support was always promised just around the corner, and it never came.

Many of those same programs now work -- and install -- under Wine with much better sucess.

And plus it doesn't work very reliably for the software (well, Word, IE and Outlook) that most people want to use, and it seems like the developers are more interested in using the code for proprietary emulation for running specific programs (games, plugins) or porting (corel stuff, etc.) than producing a general, Free, universal windows emulator.

Wine is not emulation. Here's what the FAQ-o-Matic says;

1. [Wine] calls native libraries...not an emulated environment.

   1. WINE stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator. It implements native code to the function calls present in the Windows DLL's. An emulator is something that duplicates the environment that an application runs in. WINE doesn't bother.

2. ...a common emulator for Linux would be VMware -- a commercial Intel-based hardware emulator to run any Intel OS inside a virtual computer. This requires a real copy of the OS (ie, Windows) and a fast computer, of course; and the program itself can cost more than Windows. WINE is significantly faster than a real emulator with less overhead, currently at the cost of stability and ease of use. (But it's free too.)

As for your other points, no current versions of Word, IE, or Outlook work under OS/2, yet old versions do work under Wine and current versions should be there shortly; remember Lindows MS Office support is based on Wine. Track the progress on the Wine mailing lists and on appdb.codeweavers.com. Some non-Lindows Wine screen shots are available here; wine.godmonkey.com.

OS/2's Windows support was hokey. By the time Windows programs were really taking off, they were for Win32s (Win95-style, not Win3x). Those programs worked poorly at best under OS/2 if they worked at all. Good Win32s support was always promised just around the corner, and it never came.

Many of those same programs now work -- and install -- under Wine with much better sucess.

And plus it doesn't work very reliably for the software (well, Word, IE and Outlook) that most people want to use, and it seems like the developers are more interested in using the code for proprietary emulation for running specific programs (games, plugins) or porting (corel stuff, etc.) than producing a general, Free, universal windows emulator.

Wine is not emulation. Here's what the FAQ-o-Matic says;

1. [Wine] calls native libraries...not an emulated environment.

   1. WINE stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator. It implements native code to the function calls present in the Windows DLL's. An emulator is something that duplicates the environment that an application runs in. WINE doesn't bother.

2. ...a common emulator for Linux would be VMware -- a commercial Intel-based hardware emulator to run any Intel OS inside a virtual computer. This requires a real copy of the OS (ie, Windows) and a fast computer, of course; and the program itself can cost more than Windows. WINE is significantly faster than a real emulator with less overhead, currently at the cost of stability and ease of use. (But it's free too.)

As for your other points, no current versions of Word, IE, or Outlook work under OS/2, yet old versions do work under Wine and current versions should be there shortly; remember Lindows MS Office support is based on Wine. Track the progress on the Wine mailing lists and on appdb.codeweavers.com. Some non-Lindows Wine screen shots are available here; wine.godmonkey.com.

Use Crossover
It's worth its $25.

The best thing to do is go here: Codeweavers and buy a copy of the Crossover plugin. You'll get to use Quicktime, Realplayer, and WMplayer for all your video needs. Well, except for DVD...It's pretty impressive, there's a free demo for you to check out.

NaN folding will strengthen the argument that there are not enough good desktop applications for Linux. It will also strengthen the claims that Linux users will not pay for software.

I don't really understand. Blender was on Windows as well as Linux. Does this mean that there are not enough good desktop applications for Windows and that Windows users won't pay for software?

I tried blender. It was very confusing to me. I'm sure it was a great product for those who did know how to use it, but I never did figure it out. It now sits in My Programs.

Loki is gone - no games. Blender is gone - no 3d.

Loki and Blender were far from the sole providers of native games and 3D on linux. And wine is getting better each day. It seems to be running lightwave for some people.

Try LightWave. Right now you can only run the Windoze version using WINE, but you might be able to talk to NewTek about bringing LightWave to Linux.

There are two things that keep a windows partition on my machine: Games and the ability to open word/excel/matlab documents distributed by professors and project groups.

Yes, Counterstrike keeps Windows on my box (my friend plays Counterstrike on his Linux box but getting it going with WINE sounded a lot of effort). However I would be interested to learn how easy and reliable the Crossover plugin is for reading Word and Excel documents? Experiences anyone?

Phillip.

I'm pretty sure I saw the "you must own a licensed copy" restriction when I skimmed the 6.4 EULA, but as someone else pointed out, it doesn't actually say that you have to install WMP on that OS specifically.

WMP7 just doesn't work yet, to wit.

I think CodeWeavers is just leaving the responsibility for the legality of installing WMP in the hands of their users (rightly so) -- I noticed when installing there were instructions to "read the EULA carefully" or somesuch.

As to Windows Media Player, we've really deemphasized
our focus on it, entirely because the license
agreement for WMP is fairly draconian.

However, Wine is continually improving, and I'm hoping
that Wine will support WMP in the future for those
that have a valid WMP license.

Cheers,

Jeremy

The QuickTime support mentioned in the story referred to the fact that CrossOver will let you run Apple's QuickTime 5 Player. You can even use the QuickTime plugin in your browser, be it Netscape, Mozilla, Konqueror, Galeon, SkipStone or Opera.
And because this is the original Apple QuickTime player, it does support Sorenson movies.

Btw, the CrossOver home page is there:
http://www.codeweavers.com/products/crossover/
and CrossOver supports many other plugins (Shockwave, Word/Excel/PowerPoint viewers, Trillian, etc.):
http://www.codeweavers.com/support/crossover/suppo rted_plugins.php

The QuickTime support mentioned in the story referred to the fact that CrossOver will let you run Apple's QuickTime 5 Player. You can even use the QuickTime plugin in your browser, be it Netscape, Mozilla, Konqueror, Galeon, SkipStone or Opera.
And because this is the original Apple QuickTime player, it does support Sorenson movies.

Btw, the CrossOver home page is there:
http://www.codeweavers.com/products/crossover/
and CrossOver supports many other plugins (Shockwave, Word/Excel/PowerPoint viewers, Trillian, etc.):
http://www.codeweavers.com/support/crossover/suppo rted_plugins.php

Plus, it's cheap. Try the demo and then buy it.

Plus, it's cheap. Try the demo and then buy it.

Plus, it's cheap. Try the demo and then buy it.

I like the idea, with ssh/vnc it can be very usefull for me as a control terminal from my couch. But the non-availability of quicktime, shockwave plugins on linux will make it less attractive as a surf board.

Maybe they should license Crossover plugin from Codeweavers and have mozilla preconfigured to use them.

But on second thoughts, I am not sure about the license issues of redistributing the windows plugins through Crossover. Crossover asks us to install the windows plugins through Wine by clicking through the vendors EULA and other stuff.

So if you missed out, well at least you can claim that Slashdot didn't inform you! (we now return you to relevant news about a .1 incremental beta release)

Quick fix: Get VMware. It works very well, but has different limitations compared to Wine; most non-3D accelerated programs work perfectly. Win4Lin is also good, and cheaper. It can run applications faster, but it only runs Windows programs, and a smaller number of those. Both require a copy of Windows, where Wine does not. The CD that came with the laptop (if any) may or may not work. Sites: vmware.com and www.netraverse.com.

For my effort, I've started to add applications -- even trivial things like screensavers -- to the Wine Application Database. I've included debugging output for apps -- if they work perfectly or fail drastically. I've included notes on how to get things working with Wine. I've borrowed CDs from friends and tried to install them under Wine.

Do the same, and you might be surprised. Most programs don't work under Wine, but a surprisingly growing list of programs do. Some do require hand-masaging, though most don't.

If more people report what they find -- good or bad -- Wine will get better for the general user.

AppDB

After reading this article. It basically sounds like they are going to take debian, add some KDE skins, tweak the KDE menu and configure WINE so that they have a stable and reliable version that can run as many windows programs as possible.

This sounds basically like the crossover plugin done totally wrong!

There is no reason (technically) that this needs to be a dedicated Linux distribution. The only thing I can think of is that they are doing this for marketing and/or political reasons. I am sure Michael Robertson knows what he is going from a marketing perspective but he is trying to succeed in a technical market.

The one thing that we should learn from this is that it might be time to a dedicated wine-bundle project.

Specifically... Take wine snapshots and QA them and try to get them as stable as possible. This would of course have to be coordinated with the wine project.

This should also include bundling wrappers around Windows programs so that they can be installed easily.

IE you could have a debian package named wine-bundle-ie which would of course install Internet Explorer by downloading it on the client machine similar to the way crossover does it.

This would get you the best of both worlds... Windows apps on a Linux machine and would be an Open Source collaboration.

I try to run 100% Open Source/Free Software but it would be nice to complete invoices for my clients who use Excel.

Kevin

I know what you mean, I love Linux but wish the support for proprietary formats weren't so kludgey. Codeweavers seem to have the right approach, or at least the best approach i've seen so far in terms of bringing decent web-based multimedia to the Linux desktop.

Lets be realistic. Linux isn't great for games.

Agreed, but if you're willing to run Wine, it's now getting pretty decent, even without Transgaming's DirectX extensions. What's nice about Wine is that it doesn't actually require any installation of Windows. So you install Linux, install Wine, and you can get away with never spending the cash on a Windows OS. Some of the great sites that are soooo helpful for this include:

• Linux Games, Wine compatibility list (with screenshots & tips for making games work, pretty handy).
• Frank's World, Windows Games on Linux
• But the best, by far, is this nice, nice Codeweavers Wine Application Database (my link goes right to the games section). Right now I'm going over their tips for getting Diablo II to run on Linux. They have a total of 175 Windows games in their database so far. If you have tips, please contribute.

VMware [vmware.com] is a good solution for those windows apps you can't let go

So instead of letting go of your Windows apps, you let go of your money. VMware Workstation costs $300, and Windows 2000 Pro for VMware costs $200 plus the connect time to download the service packs. How again do you prevent people from cracking or infecting your box while you download from Windows Update? On the other hand, a year of TransGaming costs only $60.

I haven't tried to run WinMX with WINE yet. Has anyone?

According to CodeWeavers' app database, most features of WinMX work, but you need a copy of Windows to run the installer.

Linux will always be an unfriendly experience, driven by multiple customized and incompatible versions of WINE

Unless you build Wine into the game binary itself. Use winelib to port your app, and it will run natively on linux, bsd, and many other operating systems that implement the same Single UNIX Spec. From there, you can gradually reduce the number of win32 calls you make.

Microsoft thinks it can. If someone did to windows what Linus did to Unix, they'd get their pants sued off, even though it's not illegal.

Then why isn't Microsoft suing CodeWeavers, the company that funds development of a popular free Windows API layer for UNIX workalikes? Yes, I know that Microsoft is suing Lindows, but that's trademark law, easily fixable by changing a name, as demonstrated in Tetrisgate.

...profoundly disturbing about such shenanigans going on even as District Court Judge
Colleen Kollar-Kotelly allegedly mulls the proper punishment of the
Microsoft Corporation, an illegal monopoly, for violating U.S. antitrust law?

Mod me down for off-topic, but I'm wondering why this story has 3x as many posts as the "last-call for public comments" in the M$ antitrust case story?

If you've got something to say, and the time to post it here, then say it to the DoJ. They are the ones who can do something to change that behavior you're dissatisfied (satisfied?) with.

http://www.codeweavers.com/~jwhite/tunney.html

http://slashdot.org/www.codeweavers.com/~jwhite/tu nney.html?
http://www.codeweavers.com/~jwhite/tunney.html.

Looks like someone forgot their HTML spec ;-) ("its funny, laugh".. not "its flamebait, mod me down")

The only reference to what the Tunney Act is, and it's a broken link. Try this one instead.

Or for a link that works...

This is the correct one.

This is the real link http://www.codeweavers.com/~jwhite/tunney.html. I'm sure the editors will fix this and I'll just labeled as a troll - oh boy...

IE5 runs more-or-less stably under the most recent Codeweavers WINE Preview release. I suspect that IE4 would be downright usable, but I don't have a copy to test with at the moment.

I was also going to bring up Diablo II, but it appears Wine runs that just peachily too ...

Funny, because Starcraft appears to be one of the games Wine can run well.

If you read the article, you notice he only talks about 10 major applications.

It may just be 10 different "modes" for 10 different pieces of software, not a system capable of running any windows app. What is needed, is a system that can emulate all the standard windows API's, not just hacks for a few programs. WINE supports more than 10 apps, and i'm sure there is software that works, that is not listed on the WINE Application Database

The people at Lindows may have got a few programs to work that WINE hasn't. I doubt their applications database compares to WINE's.

--Frank

Case 4) Lindows is Linux running CodeWeaver's Wine to launch windows apps on demand.

Once again, this is no different that what could be done with SuSE, debian, mandrake, slackware, etc...

Actually, it could be very different, as proven by CodeWeavers. It's a big leap from "Wine supports some apps" to "Wine supports the Quicktime plugin", and CodeWeavers made that leap. (It was worth $20 to me, at least.)

Lindows could make the leap to "Wine supports Microsoft Office 2000", package it with a Redmond-themed Gnome/KDE, and make money doing so.

~chris

I've recently started using trillian (www.trillian.cc [trillian.cc]) for all my IMing needs

Trillian is a Windows app, but it apparently works under Wine.

It is only in .mov format so far

One word: CrossOver.
The free demo should be enough to view the movies. :)

It is only in .mov format so far, so mpg linux people will have to move to a windows box until they post the other formats."

You mean you didn't buy Crossover?

All apps important for me did not work under Wine:

- Internet Explorer with DirectX (actually not important for me but a friend)
- WinHP (Connectivity to HP-calculators)
- VirtualDub
- NFS3

So no, Win32 apps don't run.

I've bought Crossover and I'm very happy with it and it clearly shows the possibilities. But Wine just is not there yet. It's getting better and better and it won't be long anymore, but right now it's not there yet.

Yet the market share of Linux hasn't caught up.

Actually it did, Linux is the fastest growing OS in servers and embedded systems. On the desktop it grows, too.

Even if all apps could run on Linux/Non-MS OS

First you claim that all apps can run, now you say "even if"?

, it still wont catch up. That's because at the fundamental level many if not all novice and business level users think that any OS where you have to type commands manually without error is a step backwards, not forwards.

It once was like that. But these times are over.

Now you tell me why I should consider KDE/Linux as such an OS? (Yes, I say KDE/Linux, in your face, RMS)

Just look at SuSE or Mandrake and tell me what GUI-tool you are missing.

Is it just me, or does it seem that the Linux-bashers never looked at a recent Linux-distribution?

It takes a lot of pressure and a lot of errors on MS's part to overcome that and induce a switch. Oh, WPA and the constant price hike seems just like that kind of error.

15 years ago, DOS (retail) made up about 1 to 2 % of total system costs.
Now, Windows makes up about 10 to 20% of total system costs, if you add in Office, it is as high as 50%.

Of course OEMs get discounts, but that's not the point. The point is that Microsoft's share becomes higher and higher and that the pressure for OEMs to switch to alternatives becomes higher and higher.

At the same time, Linux is becoming easier and Wine will soon be usable for real-world usage.

For an PC-maker, Wine/Linux could double or even triple the margin. Not bad, eh?

Right or wrong, MS isn't going anywhere. They will be here in 5 years, they will be here in 10 years, and they will be here in 20 years.

That's correct.

Reread my post please, I said that Windows won't last long. Of course Microsoft won't go away, but Windows will.

I have a better idea. Make them contract the work out to Codeweavers. You know, WINE, the Windows re-implementation project?

I wouldn't expect to see Quicktime for Linux anytime soon.

However, an interesting fact: according to last month's Linux Format (a really good UK Linux mag, IMO) Apple actually changed their license so that CodeWeavers could legitimatly use the Windows Quicktime 5 plugin for Netscape under Linux.

So again, don't expect to see a native version of Quicktime for Linux anytime soon... but don't expect Apple to completely ignore Linux either. (Insert obligatory plug for Codeweaver's plugin here... here's mine: Quicktime works great even on my laptop! Try it out!)

That could mean quicktime for Linux, but would we need it?

We already have it.

Anyway, with the Crossover plugin (or just use wine), you can look at Quicktime.

I just don't understand why Apple won't release a viewer for Linux.

Isnt this backward? Should we be porting software from Windows to Linux(e.g., WINE) instead of from Linux to Windows? Come on, Windows has enough good software already. Why spend time porting the useful stuff from Linux into the busted Windows environment?

Ummm... I think they are.

Crossover. Shut up.

For those of you who know the difference between QT and Quicktime, take heed! There is hope! I've successfully played some Quicktime movies using WINE. Everybody knows the Crossover plugin from CodeWeavers. I've also had some very good results with the CodeWeavers version of Wine.

Unfortunately some aspects of the UI don't work but the movies play nicely. I can't wait until TransGaming's WineX or stock Wine runs Quicktime movies as good as mplayer plays .avi files under my favourite OS!

Does anyone know exactly how crosspollination between these projects work? I would say that besides GNU and Linux, Wine has the potential to be the most useful piece of code ever created.

For those of you who know the difference between QT and Quicktime, take heed! There is hope! I've successfully played some Quicktime movies using WINE. Everybody knows the Crossover plugin from CodeWeavers. I've also had some very good results with the CodeWeavers version of Wine.

Unfortunately some aspects of the UI don't work but the movies play nicely. I can't wait until TransGaming's WineX or stock Wine runs Quicktime movies as good as mplayer plays .avi files under my favourite OS!

Does anyone know exactly how crosspollination between these projects work? I would say that besides GNU and Linux, Wine has the potential to be the most useful piece of code ever created.

The obvious answer . . . .

KDE 2.2.2's Konqueror fixes many well known bugs in Konqueror's Netscape plugin API, which now means that:

* Quicktime / QuicktimeVR
* Shockwave
* Ipix

And many more of the browser plugins supported by Codeweavers Crossover now work under Konqueror.