Slashdot Mirror
Darwin Streaming Server Beats Real, Windows Media
pinqkandi writes "Network Computing recently ran an extensive shootout of video streaming servers, in areas from setup to quality to buffering times. The free, open source Darwin Streaming Server, which streams QuickTime content, edged out costly and closed source Windows Media & RealVideo streaming systems." Well, it edged out Real. It blew Microsoft away.
Now if only the all-libre folks had a way of producing and viewing nice QuickTime movies...
There are ways to make quicktime videos without purchasing Quicktime pro, but most of them don't work very well, or use older versions of the quicktime mpeg4 based/inspired codec.
Can the darwin streamer be used to stream any other kind of media?
Tarkin support? Tarkin? Tarkin, anyone?
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
Even if it only "edged out" Real in terms of streaming speed/whatever, it certainly blows the doors of Real in terms of quality.
Their "fractal" algorithm or whatever they're calling it has been ready for retirement for the last 3 years. Can you say artifacting? Especially in medium to high motion scenes. At low bandwidth it's about the only way to go, but for broadband applications, it's just ugly.
Not only that, but I'm glad to see another alternative in streaming media. More choices is inevitably better.
*everything* is Orwellian to cats.
Go opensource (darwin)! er.. closed source (quicktime)! er.. apple (the underdog)! er.. quicktime (best codec)!
I think this is great.. but what political stance can a mass of angry/happy slashdotter's take on this??
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
Quicktime video is cool, but the compression isn't all that high and it butchers the audio something fierce.
Darwin sounds really cool. Perhaps it will evolve to become #1? Survival of the fittest streaming servers definitely applies here.
Who would want to stream real anyway. God that format sucks and the clients are even worse.
- WeaselGod
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet turbines
I admittedly have almost nil experience with streaming servers (or clients, for that matter) except for mp3 streams. I must say that I'm surprised that Apple's Darwin QTSS beat out Real and MS! Not bad for something open source and free. Didn't expect it, given my percieved relative unpopularity of it. Is it behind more sites that I seem to be noticing, or is it really a well-kept secret?
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
This would be a lot cooler if *everything* about Quicktime were open (including codecs). It's pretty silly that I can run the streaming server on Linux but I have to go to Windows or Mac to view the content.
---------
get your war on
I think in the end the player will determine which platform will be more succesful, and Microsoft is better placed there.
Not that I love Media Player, but it sure beats that crappy Real Player or that irritating nagware that is Quicktime. Plus it comes bundled with windows...
I know that whenever I'm presented with a choice of streaming media, I usually pick the one for mediaplayer.
I'd rather download something than stream it. Streams are often much lower quality and it prevents you from time-shifting it, which you should be able to do. For this reason I use Streambox VCR, which you can download here, for downloading .RM files and ASFRecorder, downloadable here, which lets you download streaming Windows Media files, so that you can time shift those as well.
It looks like OS X is becoming a serious contender for the server market. Now if Apple can get their ass in gear and make some serious sever hardware, it has a shot at boosting market share.
Does any one know about Darwin clients for Linux,
which also shows those standalone quicktime movies.
I am sick of not being able to see those quicktime
movies.
I'm not aware of a good open source streaming media format that also has good linux AND windows clients, which might explain why Darwin chose to stream quicktime format (or even more likely, there is something about the quicktime format that makes it supperior for streaming). But it would be nice to see something come up to bat against the major players here.
But just because I'm not aware of it, doesn't mean it does not exist. Where there is a software question, there is usually an open source answer. Can anyone point me in the direction of a good streaming format with clients for Windows/Linux/Apple? Perhaps a Java client is the answer.
----- sXe
Which one is better - Windoes Media Player runs on the Windows that comes with each new PC, built right in so the consumer doesn't have to do anything! It's tightly integrated with the OS just like the consumer wants it. WMP is going to win the mp wars, too. Sorry WinAmp, Real and Quicktime. That's just the way it goes these days. Better luck in the next life.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
The problem with Macs right now is that you know you have the nicest OS around...on sub-par hardware (performance wise at least) that costs too much. I could care less about "industrial design" - the ergonomics of normal PCs are sufficient.
I know Darwin runs on x86. You just don't get any of the MacOS X user interface or graphics capabilities, and that's not good enough.
299,792,458 m/s...not just a good idea, its the law!
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
There is not ONE Microsoft product which can beat an equivalent Open Source product. Not ONE.
However, than Real / Apple Darwin share equivalent honours, is interesting. However, Real have content, coporate sponsorship, and perhaps the easiest "player" concept.
However, they are working hard to make money. Apple, on the other hand, already have a number of companies that subscribe to Apple for the graphics capability, are more likely to be streaming, and will use their product. They may well use it to sell Apple (even if it is cross platform) to their niche audience.
I mean, if you have OSX, you have a Mac. And you didn't actually buy the Mac to run BSD, you bought it because it was cool/great for graphics/already used by your publishing company, etc.... no? Even if you ARE pleasantly surprised that OSX's shell is familiar, is cool, can run all your favourite friends like apache, named, etc...)
Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
mod parent up
Die, Windows Media!
and if you have to use 1.5 Mbps, why not just use MPEG. I would say WM and Real both do well at low and mid-range bitrates, but the sorenson codec sucks at anything but high bitrates.
The review didn't mention anyting about frame rate or video size. quality was mesured from screen captures, so I guess video framerate and audio are not part of the streaming media experience.
They also should have used S-video for all captures. The osprey 500 DV applies a filter when you use the IEEE 1394 port. This is not an apples to apples comparison. Why not just use the winnov card for all captures?
They also didn't mention how many streams a single server could handle. Real requires a heavy duty server, QT doesn't realy have specs, and I would bet Windows Media server does the best job.
And WTF is with the apple networking icon? Is there realy a need for that?
Sorry, MS Excel is by far the best spreadsheet.
Gnumeric, kspread, even openoffice are okay, and getting better, but still not good enough.
I spend a LOT of my day doing calculations, nothing beats Excel.
I've been using Linux since 94, I run it almost exclusively at home, but really use the best tool for the job.
I look forward to the day that free software can provide a better solution for everything I need to do, not just some/most of it.
I have wondered for the longest time why a number of news outlets use Windows Media on their web sites, when the quality / stability totally blows. Maybe they're Microsoft trained gnomes who only use FrontPage, write ASP, and use IE. I don't know. But QuickTime blows the $hit out of everything else. I just wish more people recognized that.
Was that a Tom's-Hardware style blowing away, where the leading product beats the other by 0.5%?
:)
Real Player is even worse 10 fold. How this is still around is beyond me. Their new Real2 player is a bit nicer, but still blows.
Media Player, while the newest version is ANNOYING AS HELL constantly switching skin modes when you dont want it to, plays all my MPGS and AVIS and DVDs great. It is near flawless for playing movie and mp3 formats, and has plugins for nearly everything.
MPG is still the way to go IMO.
For audio, nothing beats streaming MP3s via Shoutcast, hands down. WinAmp > All.
The survey of folks deploying streaming servers said that the #1 most important thing when choosing a format was quality. But, the #1 most-deployed format was Windows Media, which was judged to be, by far, the worst format for quality. What does this tell us?
As a person that uses Linux for a Desktop.
Let me just say this..
I only see Windows and MAC on the download page.
Next stop.. avifile?
HOW ABOUT A QUICKTIME VIEWER FOR LINUX?
(With a current codex.)
This would be a lot cooler if *everything* about Quicktime were open (including codecs). It's pretty silly that I can run the streaming server on Linux but I have to go to Windows or Mac to view the content.
:P
Amen brother.
This seems to be the trend... GNU/Linux is perceived as a server platform, as much as the commercial Unices are. I know several Unix admins that exclusevely use Windows as their desktop box using X servers/telnet/ssh to connect to the Unix boxes. Even they really can't view a Unix platform such as GNU/Linux as desktop (not because it doesn't have what it needs, but because they can't come to terms with it).
Take Lotus Notes... you can run Domino Server in Linux, but if you try to access the mail you are out of luck because Notes is Windows-only.
Most desktop frontends end up being Windows-only, while the engine is running on some Unix. Hell, HP, IBM and other Unix vendors encourage this!
Take mysql and CVS... there has been nice and friendly win32 graphical tools long before any was available in Unix. It seems people like it this way
In the end it is exactly as you said it: we end up powering the services and providing content that we can't view ourselves
cheers,
fsm
Kind thoughts do not change the world
When will nakednews.com support this format?
Method of processing duck feet
Here's a tip to get rid of the nag screen: Set your system clock ahead, say, 20 years. Run the quicktime player. When it asks you to buy the full version, click the "later" option. Exit the player. Restore your clock to the correct time. You won't get the nag screen again for 20 years.
"We created screen shots of the same scene from each player at different encoding rates: 56, 128, 256, 384 and 512 Kbps."
So they're not even testing motion or sound quality?
I have seen it first hand in the product our company produces. I am in QA, and even though I have raised several issues about the usability of our product, the end result is - it doesn't matter. The end user will use whatever they are told to use. We sell to hospitals, and cater to the administration needs, not the end user needs (nurses, stock people, etc). As long as we can sell it, and it does what the "higher-ups in the hospital want", the end user isn't a factor.
I think that is what would happen with a company setting up streaming media - the end user will use whatever they decide they will use.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
When did this happen? Is this the new look for the new slashdot? It looks kinda nice but... I don't know...
LIE! Its all based on the broadcaast codec side.
Define your codec on the broadcast side or its settings?
No requirement to use sorensen or in default mode.
Apple does not suck. Do you ever compare these things yourself?
Real drops frams like hell and I never see full screen hirez real broadcasts much but have seen Apple full screen back over 2 years ago on t1 lines (1.53) and it worked great.
you need TORNADO CODES and proper multicasting tricks to maximize user experience.
A standard MPEG1 stream would not survive well with too many dropped packets.
Talk about cheap, I mean really. They _give_ you the server, and have the unmitigated gall to ask you to pay less than one dinner for two at a nice restaurant for the software that lets you author media for it.
QuickTime is not portable software. It runs only on PowerPC-based Macintosh computers and x86-based PCs; if you want to use an Alpha or Sun box as an encode server, tough shit. Bochs doesn't count because video encoding is arithmetic-heavy, and Bochs doesn't dynamically recompile. That must be a really nice restaurant for a dinner for two to equal the cost of a low-end new PC.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I've often wondered why all of the player's gui's - Media Player, Real, and Quicktime - suck. All of the user interface research that has been done over the years must have been thrown away or forgotten.
--Jeff
ipv6 is my vpn
My company is using the Darwin Streaming Server for a client project to stream MP3's. You can create SMIL files that auto-detect the right bandwidth-specific version for your connection.
<smil>
<body>
<switch>
<ref title="Title of Song" src="rtsp://streaming.my.localhost/mp3/Title_ of_Song/128.mp3" system-bitrate="220000"/>
<ref title="Title of Song" src="rtsp://streaming.my.localhost/mp3/Title_ of_Song/40.mp3" system-bitrate="45000"/>
<ref title="Title of Song" src="rtsp://streaming.my.localhost/mp3/Title_ of_Song/20.mp3" system-bitrate="20000"/>
</switch>
</body>
</smil>
I don't know much about Linux/BSD software, but RealPlayer and QuickTime plugins can play these streams.
No one at our company had ever done any sort of music streaming before, but I was able to convince the client to go with our solution. It (Darwin Streaming Server - free) is running under Linux (free) as a Apache/Tomcat JSP application (free).
It was the right decision financially (as far as keeping development costs down). It's also nice to see that our decision, in this instance, was the right one performance-wise as well.
get with the programme, Dino. No one cares about your voice in the wilderness. Watch as your enemies at Apple anihilate the world you know.
To use Quicktime over anything else.
I think Quicktime is better than Windows Media and 1000 times better than Real. Real is very buggy, at least for me. So, I refuse to use any Real products.
wuz up with that graphic? ..is that the new apple icon?
FOOL! You can code a QT player in one day.
I hate apple palyer too.
But apple gives out example source for mac and pc for a project that is a full featured player (but lacking the crazy ugly obnoxious cheesy mettalic skin crap). It even does internet streaming.
You can compile your own player or use other players.
There is nothing special or sacred about apples palyer.
Apple ahs a rich library of code for Quicktime. Heck, even apple uses only 10% of the calls in quicktime.
... It opens with a scene from Buckaroo Banzai: Across the 8th Dimension . Yay.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
that they actually missed MANY factors when writing this review.
I'm a little pro real server, so please bear with me.
First off, RealOne Player gold which just shipped has a new feature called Turbo Play, which basically eliminates buffering times if you are on a high bandwidth machine.
Second, Real Server probably has many more features, for one more codec support:
* RealAudio/Video
* QuickTime
* Avi
* Mpeg
* MP3
These are some of the more popular ones, eh?
Also, what about scaling? RealServer has been proven to scale well. How well does the Darwin server scale? To me it sounds like they only tried this test on a single client network.
There are Mac realplayers as well.. RealOne Player is the only player that is not available on the Mac, yet.
There just seems to be a few things missing from this article that weren't tried or left out.
Darwin server would be great to try out and play with. And it will probably work great for people who want to stream some mp3s from home so they can listen to at work, but from this review I dont get a feeling its something that would be a viable solution in the realworld of streaming where you may have thousands of people connecting to a stream from multiple countries, OS's, and bandwidth.
Aliens? Magnetic Rings?! Bah! Who needs that when we have
NoMetterHowU STREAM Baby, ItsThe PLAYER That COUNTS!
Once the worst server (and therefore opensourced) Darwin now is becoming the best one, but the user side is still problematic.
No multimedia player that works on several platforms that supports more than a few formats and standards (like SMIL and Flash) which might be as important as good video codecs for high qualtity experiance.
So far OpenMASH, Finish/international project which is going Java way.
The most interesting work is currently done by OpenSoftwareStreamingAlliance, which will sone move redisgned and expanded on openstreaming.org
One of interesting web projects is Frequency Clock made by FREE RADIO LINUX people of the r a d i o q u a l i a.
It tooks me a few years, but it finally occurred to me... Darwin, Newton, butthead astronomer... hey, Apple has a scientist naming theme.
How many years did this go on before I noticed?
...is not open, standards based, peace and love, etc. they want more money. They use the open source banner to make it seem like they're trying to help humanity, because they don't get to control things as is. Open platform? Can you produce a mac clone? How about the source to OS-X beyond Darwin? Open source streamer for their proprietary player? Sounds real open.
They just want your money, like MS, Sun, and the rest. They're not your buddy. Use whatever platform works for you, but don't try to tell me they're trying to do anyone any good other than themselves.
"Well, it edged out Real. It blew Microsoft away."
Which in english means "Microsofts R&D department will be hard at work absconding code from apple to make a new version of their streaming server."
Bah
Ra7
-
"Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" - RWE
I never heard of it. Is that an app that has only been written for one OS so far? That seems pretty obscure for an alleged "winner."
The most amazing part is, the article is from March 18th, a whole three days in the FUTURE!
Obviously, Alexander Hartdegen is playing with us again. Since he can't change his past, he has come to the present to change the future, and Apple is his unwitting victim (forget Jeremy Irons and his hairy friends).
Just keep a watch out for temporal rifts sucking your teacups into the nether.
- The Amazina Llama
Where did these rules come from? I think your rant would go well with Pink Flyd "The Wall" playing in the background. Say it in a fascist voice, right after they say "You can't have any pudding, if you don't eat your meat!"
Or get yourself a Hitler mustache and a podium and say it in a fascist voice while doing crazy frustrated gestures.
You can't have you icons if they don't print in greyscale!
How can you print in greyscale if you don't have your icons!?
I agree with you.
Icons should never be 3d. They slow down interpretation by human mind at high speed.
Icons should also be possible to print in black and white (greyscale)
Icons should also be of familiar abstartions or easy to remember or associate
This new icon sucks so bad it violates all of this.
What a collosal waste of pixels
What jerk had no balls to tell the artist "too bad we cant use it"? Or what artist was too meek to tell his
boss who might have asked for it to "go to hell because your conception is crap"
I now am offended by this new icon. As you are.
MS Office isn't really appropriate for most business settings, because nowdays, many businesses are connected to the internet and share documents with others. If you don't interact with outside organizations, MS Office may be ok. But if you do swap documents with outside organizations, you've got to be crazy to use Office. The macro language is too powerful and virus-friendly. That's like passing around executable binaries.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
It is hard to comprehend. I agree with you.
Icons should never be 3d. They slow down interpretation by human mind at high speed.
Icons should also be possible to print in black and white (greyscale)
Icons should also be of familiar abstartions or easy to remember or associate
This new icon sucks so bad it violates all of this.
What a collosal waste of pixels
What jerk had no balls to tell the artist "too bad we cant use it"? Or what artist was too meek to tell his
boss who might have asked for it to "go to hell because your conception is crap"
I now am offended by this new icon. As you certainly are.
We have gone over this a thousand times. It will never happen for some of the reasons stated in an earlier reply. I'll take my dual 1GHz, nVidiaGeForce4, 1.5 GB RAM, built in super drive, etc...performance? Oh boy...
I downgraded my cable service from 128kbps/128k to 64k/64k. Why?
/.).
Besides the former company's lousy job (speed& latency), I learned that 56kbps streams abound, and you find a smaller percentage of 256kps or 80kpbs.
More importantly, people say 384kpbs is the minimum to attain a good TV experience, VHS-like. This is not common. And out of my reach, right now. We can only get 512k here -- ant it *is* expensive!
Also, new techniques and codecs may eventually bring down the requirements (recent news stories about this here on
Now, in the light of the above, I thank Real very much. Weren't for them what would be the viable options under 56k?
Yes, they charge for production. You can use that MS-alternative which is free. Except they got your money much before, when you acquired their OS.
What? You got it free? Ah, yeah, right... A dog's collar is free, too. Me, I'm like the wolf...
God, there must be alot of *nix monkeys on today with MOD points to burn.
Quick time is nag ware, and video quality at low to medium bit rates sucks. That and no MPEG4 support.
Real Player is awful bannerware with low video quality at all levels of bit/sample rates. It's difficult to use as well as having a history of security and privacy issues. Quick time encoding and code is way closed source as well, and tools are expensive/limited.
WMP is basic, but runs well. It's stable. It's advert free. WMP files look good at all but very low bit rates, scales well, and have a tight integration with web browsers and servers. You may hate MS, but this is one area where MS has done a pretty good bang up job. Media files are pretty open, tools are available and cheap to free if you look.
You are correct this stuff is just transport and control software for broadcasting.
I wrote this comment earlier but i repeat the post here because an 'apple lover' marked this informative post as a troll -1.
Much as Quicktime is merely an elaborate file structure that can contain all types of data (or almost no data)... this Open Source is just a large pile of swill that has no source code to the more common video CODECs used in quicktime.
Its just a file handler.
MS and Real Networks offer a total solution even though apples is cheaper and faster.
But you cannot compare a benchmark without keeping apples stinginess in mind.
Its a classic Bait and Switch. Apple will always charge money for video compression deliverred stock in their normal Quicktime, and will never offer source to the compressors.
Bait and Switch was tried with Apples dead Quickdraw GX (it was assumed to be free for delivery on media for macs and Wintel, but apple changed it from free to 99 dollars PER DELIVERRED CD OF YOUR PROGRAM if your program ran on PCs and not just macs. 99 dollars of licensing after hyping QuickDraw GX for 5 years getting developers duped.
Luckily almost NO (yes almost none at all) developers adapted Quickdraw GX because they thought Apple might try that kind of tactic.
Apple charged at one time 5 thousand dollars for the file format needd to launch a PowerPC program (required if you want to write a shareware assembler). The PEFF file was even patented with 7 patents to control what programs run on macs and who controls the compilers.
Then Apple charged so much money per year for their version of a software installer that 3rd party companies sprang up making installing software less coherent than needed. I think it was 2 thousand per comany or something.
Then Apple charged money for BallonWriter to add help into programs and get "system 7" certification for advertising System 7 compatibility. But Apple charged 20 dollars for copies of BalloonWriter EVEN TO DEVELOPERS with normal subscriptions to software information.
BallonHelp died from developer revolt, the same way Quickdraw GX died.
Then Apple wanted to charge liscensing per deliverred copy of programs linked with "Bedrock". A fee per program!! Similar to the 3% gross tax on all Newton Apps. Bedrock was ignored by developers and died, just as Newton died.
3% of Gross (not Net) is exploitation.
Apple once charged programmers 895 dollars for a copy of the Newton Programing documents for over a year. 895 dollars! They dropped the price in half after a few years when all programmers ignored it due to exploitation.
Apple charges (GOUGES) its dwindling developer base.
Guess what Apple... No matter how much money I make per year writing Apple software I will NEVER EVER pay more for programming documentation per page than I would for a book in the store. EVER, I would rather ignore the technology and let it die.
You have heard of DLLs on MS Windows? Well Apple had an early type of DLL that was actually bettwer than MS type but charged an ANNUAL FEE with no fixed price cap to use it! Charging money to use the Apple dynamic load library technology in your products!!! I think it was 1500 dollars per year.
HAHAHAHAHAH! That crap was ignored by every company practically.
Apple has been trying to tax their developers for years.
Apple wanted more than 3% gross for Pippin and a "code of moral Decency" adherence to allow Pippin software delivery. Pippin died... (It was like the 3d0 game PowerPC game console but much better)
Apple has spent hundreds of MILLIONS of dollars on ambitious buggy high tech system software technologies that developers REFUSED to touch. All of it is dead.
This includes things like Taligent Pink OS, Bedrock, OpenDoc, CyberDog, SOM, Kalieda, Copland, QuickDraw GX, Powertalk, QuickDraw 3D, Dylan, Hypercard, Newton, etc etc etc..... DEAD AND PATHETIC all because of bugs, greed, and lies.
Developers have priciples... and the number one priciple is that they HATE being exploited.
They expect Apple to PAY THEM to read new manuals, not the other way around.
They expect Apple to PAY THEM to adapt and ebrace new proprietary system technologies, not the other way around.
But developers will settle for free cost. Some will settle for nominal fees.
Apple understands nothing.
They always give long marketing-speak excuses why they wanted 895 dollars for newton programming manuals
They use excuses such as : default IBM OS/2 programming manuals from IBM cost 5000 dollars in March 1987.
Sigh.......
OS/2 is dead, Apple.
Now do you get it Apple?
Offer some video compression source code (pay your consulting suppliers if you need to) or shut the hell up. I hope Darwin crap dies as well as slow buggy MAc OS X. (Mac-O-Sux)
An AC wrote:
;) Microsoft's developers don't seem to mind the sky high cost of Visual Studio.Net. Lets see Microsoft give that away for free!
> Its a classic Bait and Switch. Apple will always charge money for
> video compression deliverred stock in their normal Quicktime, and
> will never offer source to the compressors.
Apple doesn't have the rights or the ability to give you the source to the compressors of others that they license to use in QuickTime. Good Grief! The whole reason they are not releasing QT6 is because the MPEG-4 people are demanding that content creators pay them a tax to use it, over and above the $2 million Apple will be paying them to license it. Apple is going to bat for its users here, and you have the gall to blame them for not giving you someone else's source code!
> Apple charges (GOUGES) its dwindling developer base.
Oh yeah, right! A whole twenty bucks to get a CD of their developers tools FedExed to your doorstep. Wow, that's highway robbery!
The old Apple was greedy and stupid, sure. Their greed nearly killed them. The new Apple, born in December 1996, is on the whole, wiser and more compassionate. This is the Apple that:
- Based the core of their new OS on open source (and gave back the source, which was not required by the license).
- Slashed the price of their Web Objects from $50,000 to $699.
- Gave away their OS X developer's tools for free download ($20 for CD).
- Went to bat for their users to avoid extra end user charges (for MPEG-4 content creation) for Quick Time Pro users.
- Opened the source of their Darwin Streaming server.
- and a lot more.
> Developers have priciples... and the number one priciple is that they
> HATE being exploited.
No, you just hate having to pay to get anything in life.
> They expect Apple to PAY THEM to read new manuals, not the other
> way around.
>
> They expect Apple to PAY THEM to adapt and ebrace new proprietary
> system technologies, not the other way around.
Actually, that is what your *employer* pays you for, and expects you to do if you want your salary to continue going up. If you are programming as a hobby, it is its own reward.
> They always give long marketing-speak excuses why they wanted 895
> dollars for newton programming manuals
>
> They use excuses such as : default IBM OS/2 programming manuals
> from IBM cost 5000 dollars in March 1987.
>
> Sigh.......
>
> OS/2 is dead, Apple.
So's Newton, so why are you expecting to be able to get programming manuals for it, at any price? Anyway, IBM OS/2 didn't die due to the price of the programming manuals (actually, last I heard, another company was still developing versions of OS/2).
> Offer some video compression source code (pay your consulting
> suppliers if you need to) or shut the hell up.
It's two million dollars (plus content creating costs) just to put MPEG-4 in QuickTime. Do you really want Apple to go broke to give you free source code?
If you want the source that badly, go gripe at the MPEG-4 people.
> I hope Darwin crap dies as well as slow buggy MAc OS X.
> (Mac-O-Sux)
Oh, go argue point with Aqua Mothra! Grrr...
On December 14, 1996, Mothra resurrected an apple tree.
On December 14, 2001, she returned to see its fruit:
OS X, the Apple of Mothra's Aqua eye.
which is slimmer, faster, and arguably renders better than mozilla. Not to mention that mozilla isn't really happy with flash, which is an important component of browsing the web today. Sigh, I'd really love to ditch IE completely but that day isn't here yet.
I hate streaming video. It looks like crap. So I don't really care if one is slightly better than the other.
Even digital broadcast, which we prolly watch every day, is clunky and unreliable (sounds like the Net doesn't it?). As someone who PAYS FOR THE BLOODY CABLE, I gotta say I'm completely disappointed in each and every digital "entertainment" technology so far. Not good enough. If I can find an alternative, I'll take it in a second. I'm seriously considering cutting all cable and simply using DVD collections and trades. Hey, as long as Buffy the Vampire Slayer is on disk, I don't need cable (if you get me).
I firmly believe digital technology cannot deliver high quality over a distance. Even through a wire. 1001010100101010 --- are too fat!
Date: 2002-03-15 08:14
Sender: jamiemccarthy
Logged In: YES
user_id=3889
The Slash workaround for this Microsoft bug has been fixed and
committed, and will go live on Slashdot with the next code
refresh.
For the record, of the two suggested fixes submitted by trolls:
the first rejected many legitimate comments, the second generated
HTML that hung Internet Explorer (!), and neither could have
prevented "page-widening."
Actually, I was referring to the actual slashdot title graphic at the top left of the screen. And the horizontal dividers betweeen posts. They have an iMac look to them.
But now I see that they are only for stories in the "Networking (Apple)" section. Must be a feature I was unaware of.
Or am I the only one that can see them?!? :-)
Whose fault is that? Linux is, after all, the platform where "barely good enough" is just fine. If you ask "how do I do xyz", the geeks will always refer you to some command line tool, when 90% of the people would prefer a GUI tool. If you complain, they say the CLI tool works fine, so why bother? You can't convince them that it's a problem.
I see you posted this a second time, obviously because everyone realized what a smackass you are and ignored your streaming crap. Maybe, after people ignore you again, you can post it a third time? Oh! Wait! Maybe four!
if you want to use an Alpha or Sun box as an encode server
If you can afford a Alpha or Sun encoding setup, I really doubt you'd have any problem with
affording a sub-$1000 PC to use as a dedicated QT encoder.
Not everyone uses $platform because it's free.
C-X C-S
You dumbass! The QuickTime file format is already open, Open QuickTime can play QuickTime (.mov) files, as long as they're not in the Sorenson codec, which is proprietary. The reason you can't watch most QT media is the fault of Sorenson, not Apple. When QuickTime moves over to MPEG4 ISO (in QT6, the next release), people will move away from the Sorenson codec, and you should be able to play QT media on any platform.
Second, I thought things like MPEG1-4 were "open" standards, just not "open-source" or "free".
So as you can see, either I'm very confused or a lot of people are confusing the terminology. I'm not always sure which.
Its kinda elite move against Apple who has been suing everyone trying to imitate OSX via skins/themes. In my opinion of course.
So, to stream videos you need to pay for the tools.
What about streaming live audio like radios?
What does it needs?
Does Daewin Streaming Server do it all?
I've not been able to get the plugin to
work, either from within the browser or as
a standalone on Mandrake 8.0 or 8.1.
It starts up and then X freezes hard.
I've not had much help from the codeweaver folks
in this regard. I would be interested if anyone
has got this working on mandrake.
Magnus.
Does a product have to be made from the ground up as an open source project to be a 'triumph of open source'?
It seems to me that when open source has become so appealing that commercial software producers find it benefitial to release their source code to the world and continue development as an open source project, that is the truest triumph of open source.
I'd rather see Photoshop open sourced than use The GIMP anyhow.
Kevin Fox
All of the user interface research that has been done over the years must have been thrown away or forgotten.
With QuickTime 4, Apple threw their own Human Interface Guildelines out the window and made something that looked cool, which Microsoft promptly copied. Users complained, so QuickTime 5 fixed some of the UI problems a bit (using a slider bar for volume instead of a stupid wheel). The brushed metal look is also used by the "i" apps (iMovie, iTunes, iDVD, iPhoto) which I also find to be frequently counterintuitive. Maybe QuickTime 6 will be better?
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
The authoring isn't the problem. The playback is. Offering a system that doesn't play on Linux or FreeBSD (unless you count OS X as being FreeBSD), or anything else that's not Mac or Windows, is NOT a win for open source like the summary falsely claimed - it's using one open source project (the streaming server) to hamper another (the OS'es that can't do quicktime because Apple won't release the Sorensen Codec (and it would be illegal under DMCA to reverse engineer it nowadays even if you could figure out how {damn DMCA}.)
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
GUI design was turned over to the Marketroids, with no input from engineers, or anyone else with any sound training or experience. Now, the programmers just get an MRD that says "Make it do X, and make it look like Y" and that's it.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Running the Real Player in Classic (emulation) is kind of a pain. Unfortunately, my favorite radio program "This American Life" has everything in Real format (at least it's not Windows Media.)
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
Linux is an alternative, desktop OS. Macintosh OS is an alternative, desktop OS. People like UNIX, want a desktop OS, choose between OS-X and Linux. I'm not saying this is the way it is...but maybe the Mac guys look at it this way. Apple won't make linux quicktime because linux is direct competition?
Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
... is this just for MacOS X Server or can regular old MacOS X users work the software as well? The page lists the Mac requirements as OS X 10.1, but when I try to find the download I am refered to the propretary OS X Server version.
omnia tua castra sunt nobis
Doing a quick search on Yahoo! Shopping I came up with tons of places where you can get firewire cards for sub-$25. It's not the high-priced game it used to be.
That page is wrong (and it's been wrong for awhile now, somebody has yet to clue in the marketing person who did that page...). It works fine on Mac OS X Client (I know, I'm using it right now).
All editorial writers ever do is come down from the hill after the battle is over and shoot the wounded.
On a properly secured Domino server, you can't access mail from the server console even on Windows.
maybe some day you should learn to read.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Why would you downgrade your cable service just to watch low-res streams? You can still watch 56k realmedia files on a faster connection...
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
It should be mentioned that now you can download the entire Newton development environment, massive numbers of tools, and docs, for free.
...of the article was the software ratings compared with the user survey:
What is the most important aspect of a video stream?
Low Bandwidth 27%
Quality 73%
Video Quality Report Card:
QuickTime 4.1
Real 3.7
WMP 2.5
In what format do you provide content to your users?
QuickTime 22%
Real 31%
WMP 42%
In other words, with quality being the most important factor, WMP wins - despite being the lowest quality of all. (Both QuickTime and Windows Media solutions are free) Hmmm... sounds like other familiar Microsoftian stories.
I haven't completely read through the APSL, but it looks similar to the GPL (of the 20% I read). This is a good thing, as if it was totally free, then you'd see a rather large company we all know about use the code, like they do for all other free source code they find.
Normal width here on Mac OS X IE.
On a properly secured Domino server, you can't access mail from the server console even on Windows
Well, at work I use GNU/Linux in my personal box, and thus the only way I have to read mail is because they opened the Domino Webmail for me... of course it's much slower and makes reading and sending mail rather painful; due to security reasosn no POP or other method is allowed, so I am effectively incapable of reading mail like everybody else because I do not have a client.
I just wished that someone made a fetchmail alike program to download and send messages usgin the Domino protocol, allowing me to use my own mail program (hard because of the id file, etc).
cheers,
fsm
Why are all Macintosh users homosexual? Interesting question, not one of them is smart enough to install Linux on an intel box, much less a gay PPC gumdrop.
Bzzzt Wrong!
The environment and the manuals WERE NOT sold unbundled and the environment was sold for FREE as a FREE entity tied to the 900 dollar manuals.
It was a legal maneuver similat to the "Free Intel i860" assembler that Intel legally NEVER ever sold for more than zero dollars, yet came as a FREE goodie with toher typoes of purchases, usually a C compiler purchase.
The Newton programming manuals were 900 dollars.
I tried to buy them for less.
Thats how much they cost.
The software floppies were a free tagalong item.
YOu are wrong about the manuals costing less.
Apple charges 5000 dollars for a single technote on PEFF once, what makes you think they did not charge 800 for Newton manuals.
They are free now probabbly as OS/2 manuals are free.
Too late though.
-- if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic - Lewis Carrol
I sure don't! BTW: Have you seen the latest Starwars Trailer on the apple.com website? OH WAIT! You have to BUY QT Pro to view it! All the hype and you have to pay! I just downloaded it off Kazaa. How about the QTTASK listed in your processes? I couldn't find any way to disable it within the program. Had to remove it from the registry. F*** QT.
/.
How much is a Firewire Camcorder? Sure wasn't free.
/.
This is just for creating a movie and getting it into a computer. You don't need a Camcorder if you've already got the movie on your HD. I would be interested to know what alternative you have to make video's of 'reality'.
Sorenson3: Cool 600x400 video @200kByte/s
Yeah, there's a little difference in here... of a factor of 8!
I hope Apple & Sorenson will someday see the light... until then, WMA and their MPEG4 codec is unmatched, I'm sorry!
*yawn*
and it got a 5... shows you how ignorant most people truly are.
that you'll ALSO have the crappiest possible solution.
MS: "We will shove our crap *right* down your pipe. We *have* no shame, nor fear! Who will dare stop us? The DOJ? Don't make us laugh!!"
It's late, and I'm halfway through a bottle of Chianti, so bear with me on this, because this is a little long ...
.2 release to upgrade. I'm loyal, but not naive.)
Even if the licensing terms of the Sorensen codec permitted Apple to release the specs for Quicktime, I'm confident that they wouldn't. I'm pretty sure I understand why. And I agree.
It's all about the brand.
Explanation By Example
Once upon a time, I was a loyal Microsoft user. Dos, Windows 3.1, Windows 95. I had invested time in the system, knew how to get work done using those tools. When a knowledgeable friend suggested that I upgrade my trusty HP Vectra to the newly released Windows NT 4.0, I did so. After the third time the system crashes SO HARD that I had to reinstall the operating system from scratch, I was so irritated at Microsoft that I swore I wouldn't believe their lies again. I went and bought a copy of Red Hat Linux 4.2, and began the long, painful process of self education.
RedHat 4.2 was much, much more difficult for a casual user than MS Windows NT 4.0. But Microsoft's marketing machine was in overdrive at the time, trying to convince the world that Unix was dead, that NT was the future - and, more importantly, that NT was the best computing experience I would get. Microsoft flat out lied to me. The Linux community, on the other hand, never once suggested that I wouldn't have to sweat, curse, and study in order to use their Stone Soup operating system.
I don't mind hard work. I will not tolerate being lied to.
You might be asking at this point, "What the hell does this have to do with the parent article, or even with the subject line of this post, ferchristssake?"
My point is that Microsoft damaged their brand. They misrepresented themselves - they created a significant negative impression in my mind, and I haven't given them a penny since. At the same time, RedHat created a positive impression on me by NOT overselling themselves, by being truthful with me, and I have happily bought a copy of every x.2 release of their software since. (I always wait until the
Apple's single strongest asset is it's brand. As I sit here typing this article on my recently purchased Titanium Powerbook running OS X, I understand the truth of that. I've been a Linux user for the past six years, but never bothered to try any of the BSDs, until Mac OS X. Why? Because Steve Jobs, legendary control freak and perfectionist, has staked his professional reputation on the Apple brand. You know that if you buy a Steve-Jobs-Apple product it will be as good as anything else out there. Apple is all about providing the best computing experience that you can get as a user.
(Don't believe me? Feel the urge to say something in defense of Linux that this point? Think about how many hours it took you to become fluent with linux + the desktop manager of your choice. Spend that same amount of time with Mac OS X and the Aqua interface. After that time, you will find me happy to compare and contrast.)
Proprietary is not neccesarily bad
Apple will probably never Open Source QuickTime, and I don't mind. It's Apple's technology, and they have no social or moral obligation to release it into the wild. But while QuickTime is an Apple technology, when I am presented with multiple formats to select from when viewing multimedia on the web, I always choose QuickTime. It's not out of loyalty. It's because I know, based on experience, that Apple's technology will provide the best user experience.
Happy to spend money
How many of you work on a Windows machine during the day? How often do you use QuickTime and see that annoying "Upgrade to QuickTime Pro now" ad?
Since I began an experiment to use my Apple laptop exclusively for a month (no better teacher than experience) I have spent the $40 for Quicktime 5 Pro. I've also spent a similar amount of money for the OmniWeb browser. Why? Because I was so impressed by the experience those products provided me on this platform that I was happy to give them my money. I don't use Open Source software because I'm cheap. That's a small amount of money to give to people who make a damned fine piece of software.
It's all about the brand, and how seriously the owners take that brand. I don't trust Microsoft, because in my opinion Microsoft doesn't want to have the best damned software out there. Microsoft doesn't care if I have The Best user experience. Microsoft is happy with Good Enough. I trust Apple. Apple DOES want to have the best damned software out there. It's (mostly) not Open Source, and they want to control the experience from the hardware on up, and you have to pay more for that experience. But Apple is very, very good at what they do. Ideology aside, it's worth the money. I'll spend more money with Apple, because I'm so impressed with what i've seen so far. And I'll take a chance on the Next Big Thing that Apple produces. Again, because I've been consistently impressed by what I've seen.
It's all about the brand.
Can you comprehend THAT you twit?
Yeah.. I can.. but I have no mod points to mod your post in the first place.. so obviously other folks think your text is nothing more than drivel... not just me. Gee... that's funny.
Too bad for another troll post there.. You're really on a roll.