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Lots of devices play OGG, it's just that iPods and many mobile phones don't.

Kinda all korean, chinese and so on players play OGG.

http://dapreview.net/
http://pmptoday.com/

There is nothing we can do they cannot do cheaper.

Yeah, just compare this chinese phone:
http://www.dapreview.net/i/newspost_images/mplayer_phone.jpg
http://www.yeedong.com/product.asp?pid=392

With this western one:
http://www.ikikata.se/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/idou_second.jpg

I mean, theirs got.. uhm.. ears! And stuff! Pink ..

SanDisk Sansa Fuze. Fully geek buzzword compliant--they list Linux and Mac OS support right on the spec sheet (it just looks like a hard drive), and last month's firmware update added support for FLAC and OGG. Main downsides: no large capacity models available--limited to 8GB, although you can add capacity via SD expansion. And it can't match the iPod dock ubiquity in car stereos etc.

Most of the info has been coming from blogs,

http://www.dapreview.net/comment.php?comment.news. 3856.
http://www.meizume.com/showthread.php?t=720

But, all the phote I've seen has a Windows Icon on one of the "buttons".

I see an Apple fanboy has already modded you down. Seriously, Cowon (and others) has been releasing some great players recently. The first interface that I found clearly superior to Apple's wheel was the iRiver Clix's D-Click system.

I see an Apple fanboy has already modded you down. Seriously, Cowon (and others) has been releasing some great players recently. The first interface that I found clearly superior to Apple's wheel was the iRiver Clix's D-Click system.

In fact, there's a knock-off of that player already. :)

No one else can be as innovative as Apple.. Oh, wait...

Really, there's no shortage. I just found the DAP database, where you can enter a set of criteria, bring up detailed comparison tables, and find the audio player that suits you -- e.g. if my ideal criteria are support for FLAC/Vorbis, good battery life, good HDD space, data transfer with any OS, and radio, I can easily find out that the Cowon range is the one for me.

I haven't yet seen any results mentioning the Zune, probably because when I'm entering criteria, I'm entering criteria that I want, and they pretty much rule the Zune out immediately ...

Sorry guess I need to clarify. It has issues with other video formats and not audio. I can just drag and drop on my Zen : M and play just baout any video format. Don't really need to prove anything though. It's a retail buyers world and my choice was made through purchase and education and this article.... http://dapreview.net/zune_vs_ipod_vs_zvm.html

Actually, with the iPod I would consider that annoyance to be an equalizer that for some reason or another results in digital clipping (a.k.a. distortion) when you use it regardless of volume. Nevermind the fact that the EQ presets are preloaded by Apple and that there's no way to change those or add your own.

I agree. There's more to this story than meets the eye.

According to this article, the underlying hardware is based on the e200 series of players. That's interesting because the e200 's most distinguishing feature is its support for both MTP mode (yuck, Media Transfer Protocol means "works on XP only, and you can only transfer files by politely asking WMP10/11+ for permission") and UMS (woohoo, USB Mass Storage, it mounts like every other USB drive on every OS in the world) mode.

There's also been rumors of interest from Sandisk in working with the Rockbox folks.

I speculate that Real is paying Sandisk a small fortune to place Real-branded (and Real-DRM-infected) firmware on the existing Sansa e200 hardware. The branding of the player "Sansa Rhapsody" doesn't stomp all over the "Sansa e2x0" series. Sandisk makes money off Real's licensing fees and the hardware even if the programme flops flat on its face. Sandisk, after all, is in the business of selling flash memory, not MP3 players - hence why the e200 is flash-based and has an expansion slot for MicroSD. If you're a flash manufacturer, high-capacity flash-based MP3 players are a great means of not just driving sales, but for boosting profit margins.

The best is whatever device fits your specific needs. Again, this is the reason Apple works for most people. It does what they want quickly and easily (lets them listen to mp3's (purchased or downloaded) very easily.

If you feel you have different needs than 70% of America right now, try http://dapreview.net/ and research until you find what suits your needs.

I have visited some other sites that let you search for every single feature you want in a DAP / PMP, but I can't find the site at this time. If anyone else knows a link that would be great...

The fine folks at DAP Review suggested "dapcast" (for Digital Audio Player) several months ago to emphasize you don't need an Apple product to play the audio/video.

Well, the Rio Karma! HOWEVER

- Good Luck finding a new one (~$200), or refurbished (~$150).
- Rio just left the DAP business, so...
- It has a 20GB HD, not flash.
- It is larger than the nano in ALL dimensions.

I did research on DAP features for almost a full year before I finally decided on the Karma. It has a ton of other nifty features (Ethernet on the dock, anyone?) that are cool as well. The big selling points for me were that it plays FLAC and Vorbis, progresses to the next track gaplessly, and has wonderful analog output (and true line-out on the dock.) Other features like its 5-band Parametric equalizer are exceptional.

Personally, I'm very happy with it. That being said, it might not be anything close to what is good for you. If form-factor is "VERY" important to you, the Nano clearly beats it. If you don't care about FLAC, gapless, etc. - then those are pointless features. There are features that the Karma does NOT have, that most DAPs do. The biggie here is MSC, which I really wish it had.

I'm not saying that the Nano isn't perhaps the best device for you or others, it very well may be! For myself, I don't mind the larger size and weight for the features which I find important. I'll probably try and find a deal on a refurb Karma to use as a backup device. Just research the different options on all the players out there. Check out http://dapreview.net/news.php and other sites.

The Nano could be exactly all you need. My post was just criticizing calling any iPod the best player.

The Rio Karma's gapless playback was awesome... but that device was a little hefty and its boxy shape made it unfriendly to the pocket, which is why I got rid of it. Unfortunately, that's the only MP3 player I know of that supports gapless. Still, there are a slew of nifty 1 GB flash players that can be had for $80 - $150. In addition to the iRiver:

iPod Shuffle (I picked up a used 1GB model for $80):
+ smallest and lightest of the bunch, iTunes integration, high build-quality, excellent sound, well-place controls, doubles as USB flash drive, recharges when plugged in
- no screen, non-replaceable battery, can't transfer music through mounted drive

Creative Muvo N200:
+ FM, AAA battery offers flexibility, voice recorder, line-in
- a little larger than iPod Shuffle, must juggle batteries

Creative Muvo V200 (I got a 1GB model on Ebay for $87 shipped):
Same as N200 but slightly larger and heavier, has integrated USB connector, no line-in

iPod Shuffle Knock-offs :
Not as easy to find, but like the shuffle but with more features (but sans iTunes integration). Mixed reviews as far as build quality goes.

JXD No-name Player :
The JXD is just one of many feature-rich no-name players on Ebay. Build and sound quality unknown; YMMV.

And there are several Rio, Samsung, and Sandisk models at Best Buy... and other more exciting ones at dynamism, like the tasty iRiver T10.

Then there's the iPod Mini, which has Apple's awesome clickwheel in a fairly small package. And the Rio Carbon, which is the most pocketable of the hdd players. Too bad neither of those have a built-in USB connector or FM.

I posted a Ask Slashdot article a couple of days ago, but it was rejected, that I'ld have liked your comment on.

I am today thinking about buying a portable MP3 player, which I need to have at least 20Gb, voice recording and a car adapter. I only need MP3. And a screen, so I can choose what to play.

Try visiting dapreview.net and posting in the "Which DAP to buy?" forum.

I posted a Ask Slashdot article a couple of days ago, but it was rejected, that I'ld have liked your comment on.

I am today thinking about buying a portable MP3 player, which I need to have at least 20Gb, voice recording and a car adapter. I only need MP3. And a screen, so I can choose what to play.

Try visiting dapreview.net and posting in the "Which DAP to buy?" forum.

If you like drag n drop and want a flash player I would strongly recommend Lexar's LDP-800 for serious audiophiles, and LDP-200 for those who want a shuffle-quality player with better features and a lower price.

Both of these players are top notch with mass storage device music loading (ie: drag n drop) and expandable memory. The LDP-200 comes with a 1GB SD memory card for less than the 1GB shuffle, and it has a LCD screen with EQ and other niceness. The fact that you can swap out cards is ridiculously awesome as this is the most saught after feature for the consumers of flash players.

The LDP-800 supports OGG music and has a built in radio transmitter. It even features an OLED display. I know several people with the LDP-600 (the precursor to the 800) and it is a top notch player in both quality and durability. Everything I have been reading about the LDP-800 will make it the king of the hill for at least a little while. They are supposed to hit store shelves friday april 15.

The iPod puts out fairly accurate low end when its hooked up to a stereo.

Yeah, but he was complaining about the iPod not having the power to drive his headphones, not his stereo (in which case it would be docked). Many an audiophile would agree that those preset "equalizer" settings aren't nearly precise enough to properly drive a larger set of Cans..

In fact, here's a graph that shows the problems that low impedance headphones can have when driven by an iPod (or similar DAP, in this case the iPod was used). Many DAPs have this "problem" and it can be remedied (to my ears at least) with a real parametric EQ...