Microsoft to Launch Zune in EU

An anonymous reader writes "Happy with the sales from the little brown music player here in the states, Microsoft is working to launch the Zune media player in Europe by the end of the year. According to the Washington Post article, they are trying to have a realistic outlook on the entrenched Apple product line. They're not trying to play catch-up at the moment ... they're just trying to get on the map. From the article: '"Our next round of introductions will probably be in time for the holiday of this year." [Jason Reindorp] said Microsoft planned extensive research with focus groups in Europe to see how it could be modified for a European consumer. He said the Zune had a 10.2 percent market share in the U.S. in the 30 gigabyte category, according to the latest data, and that it was still in line to sell over a million units by June 30, the end of its current fiscal year.'"

Comments

Soon...

[RichPowers]

Europeans will be excitedly squirting all over the place!

Re:Soon...

[Professr3]

If only Microsoft had put a camera on the Zune... 1. Distribute device that allows squirting 2. Hide camera 3. ... 4. Profit!!!

Re:Soon...

[FyRE666]

...it was still in line to sell over a million units by June 30...

I didn't realise there were that many stupid people out there... then I remember the guy that was voted into the Whitehouse *again*...

Re:Soon...

[NetHead026]

Aww, I thought we already said we're sorry for that. What else can we do?

Re:Soon...

[wclacy]

I agree there are far too many stupid people in the United States. Who would have thought people would be stupid enough to vote for Bill Clinton!

Re:Soon...

[hondo77]

Yeah, all that peace and prosperity. I don't know how we survived the nineties.

Re:Soon...

[Mad Dog Manley]

Didn't you see South Park this year? 25% of all people are retarded.. in the United States, with their voter turnout, thats enough to elect a President.

Greetings!

[Rik Sweeney]

I would like to take this opportunity to

wel-
come
Europe
to the
social

Re:Greetings!

[Rik Sweeney]

Actually, since squirting certain songs won't be possible, maybe I should

wel-
come
Europe
to the
anti-
social

Re:Greetings!

[gbobeck]

So, would this be the final countdown?

Focus groups

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft planned extensive research with focus groups in Europe to see how it could be modified for a European consumer.

Preliminary results suggest that European consumers would like it to be "less crappy".

Re:Focus groups

[i_should_be_working]

Preliminary results suggest that European consumers would like it to be "less crappy".

Those snooty Europeans, think they're better'n us do they?

Re:Focus groups

[rucs_hack]

I suspect it will be in for a very hard sell.
The main problem is the perception that it wasn't built for the consumer, but for the media producers. This is another one for the bargain bucket if you ask me.

I'm sure the designers were able to convince themselves that users want Zune style restrictions in their media experience, but history shows that people will gravitate towards the simplest device that meets their needs, and the Zune isn't it.

The sad thing is there is probably some kickass hardware in the thing, but it's been tasked, as I said, to suit media producers first, which is the wrong way round.

Re:Focus groups

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't they?

Re:Focus groups

[Anonymous Coward]

Then they need to do the ipodlinux kinda thing to it.

Re:Focus groups

[ThePhilips]

The news just came after I have started noticing iPods around me more often than before. I guess with iPod Nano and its price Apple had finally nabbed European market. I welcome M$ to challenge the 150€ price of 4GB iPod Nano.

I have had two non-iPods before and have to confess that iPod is most invisible of all: SanDisk Sansa does often needs to be booted up and boot takes ~10-15 seconds (important to add that sound quality - just like on recent Creatives - sucks big time) and Philips SA117 had just too inconvenient menu which forced you to do N clicks for no apparent reason all the time (and it didn't supported anything beside MP3/WMA - no NG (e.g. AAC or OGG) formats).

iPod? Turn off "Hold" and it is instantly ready - right were you left it week ago - for you commands. Doesn't support OGG - but does AAC. Much better than that "PlaysForSure" crap. OMG! STOP. Didn't M$ dropped support for "PlaysForSure" with Zune? Oh yeah, well, what ever, what ever. I'll stick with iPod - for the time being.

P.S. As Eropean customer, I can say several things. Most important, people here are not that "computerized" when compared to Asia or North America: traditions prevail and computers for what little they can do are too expensive. (Hint: loading/charging with computer only == hard sell.) Also price is very sensitive issue and player above 300€ has few chances to be popular: preserving traditions takes its toll - normally in form of exaggregated taxes (all around Europe). And of course artist lobby groups who have lobbied themselves into state laws long time ago would want to have a share of the feast too - just like they did with most of storage media already. Would M$ be still competitive to Apple which have ironed all the problems in past three years? Wir werden sehen.

Re:Focus groups

[fbjon]

Most important, people here are not that "computerized" when compared to Asia or North America

Really, now? Which part of Europe?

Re:Focus groups

[Grave]

Not to be off topic, but that makes me think the PS3 will be an even harder sell in Europe than it's been in North America. The marketing here focuses so much on the technology that if it weren't displayed in the video game section of your local retailer, most people wouldn't even know it was meant for games. People don't care about the technology, as long as it works.

The Zune is certainly a more technologically capable device than the iPod, but it's not marketed well and isn't getting very good market penetration as a result. For those who have actually had a lot of hands-on experience with it, it's a really great device. Microsoft is firmly committed to the Zune, and will keep improving it and forcing the market to take it seriously over time. With the money that they have, they can afford multi-billion dollar pet projects like this, especially when they view a competitor as a possible "integration" threat. Nobody has really been able to oppose Apple's domination with not just a superior device, but the commitment to keep it updated and market it. I welcome the competition.

Re:Focus groups

[Dutch_Cap]

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it's not the part of Europe I live in. Europe is a pretty big and diverse place, though. I'd say western Europe and Scandinavia are plenty computerized. But I think what GP said may apply to Southern and Eastern Europe.

Re:Focus groups

[R3d M3rcury]

How about Unicode information? One of the things I like about the iPod is it's support for just about any language I throw at it.

My roomate is Vietnamese and she asked me to rip some cassettes so that she could listen to them on her new iPod nano. So I had a grand old time entering the song names and artists in Vietnamese, complete with all the accents and such. When we moved it to her iPod, I was curious as to whether it would have a problem with this or not.

Nope. No problem. All the accents and everything else came through with flying colors.

How is Zune with international information?

Re:Focus groups

[Weedlekin]

"But I think what GP said may apply to Southern and Eastern Europe."

I live in a part of Europe that's as far south as you can get while still being in Europe (Spain), and computers are everywhere, as are personal music players (mostly iPods) -- just about everyone seems to have some sort of broadband Internet link too. However, it is likely that the Zune will have a fairly difficult time here despite this due to the iconic status that the iPod has attained, especially among females, few of whom would even consider being seen with anything else.

Re:Focus groups

[Lumpy]

Some people are actually working on that feature. A lot of linux embedded gurus are out there hacking on it to find a way to replace the horribly designed OS inside the wonderful zune hardware with something better.

It's only a matter of time before the Zune becomes what it should be.

Personally I wont touch it, It will not plug into my car stereo, whole house audio system and other gear we have that is 100% ipod compatible and ready.

Microsoft had better get on the ball publishing the interface and pin-out specifications for free if they want the adoption or user satisfaction that ipod users get with their ipods.

The fact that my ipod is sitting fully charged in my glovebox while I control and listen to it from the car stereo locks it tight for me. no other mp3 player I have get's as much use simply because of the interoperability with hardware I own.

Re:Focus groups

[Anonymous Coward]

For those who have actually had a lot of hands-on experience with it, it's a really great device.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Thanks dude, you just made my morning!

Fo Shizzle

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah right, after Apple launch iPhone by June, these will sell like umbrellas in a submarine

Re:Fo Shizzle

[klang]

As the iPhone only launch in the States, European customers will need a cool product to buy for a while.. Chances are, that Apple will slam som more memory in the nano's and fill THAT vacum :-)

Europeans Love Windows Media Player

[Divebus]

As much as the Europeans warmly embrace Windows Media Player (or Windows Anything), so too shall their success be.

Re:Europeans Love Windows Media Player

[cnettel]

AFAIK, the number of "N" versions actually sold is pretty abysmal.

Re:Europeans Love Windows Media Player

[Divebus]

Will Microsoft be ordered to un-bundle Windows Media Player from the Zune as well? Just a thought...

The "30 GB cathegory"?

[Martin Kallisti]

It might be prudent to ask how many different players the "30 GB cathegory" consists of. This sounds like the Zune's total market share is very, very small.

Re:The "30 GB cathegory"?

[kfg]

This sounds like the Zune's total market share is very, very small.

http://zuneworld.com/zune-fans/zune-fans/

KFG

Re:The "30 GB cathegory"?

[bazorg]

According to CNET, there's a bunch of entries in the 30GB category: linky

In practice there's 2 colour varieties of iPod, 7 of Creative labs Zen Move and 2 of Zune. There's also a device by Cowon and finally the Zune twin brother by Toshiba.

Re:The "30 GB cathegory"?

[bazorg]

oops. Creative Labs offers the "Zen Vision:M", not a "Zen Move". Its features are impressive, especially the USB host function (for the 80MB variety) and the FM tuner/recorder.

Re:The "30 GB cathegory"?

[sh4na]

*blink blink*

Is it just me, or is it strangely telling that the only ads on that site are for Apple's iPhone? ^_^

Re:The "30 GB cathegory"?

[R3d M3rcury]

I've been wondering about that since I heard the 10% market-share claim a few days ago.

Apple played the same game and masses of mewling Mac users picked up on it when Apple claimed a high market-share for the iPod by narrowing the playing field to hard-drive-only music players. Of course, Apple did this because, at the time, they didn't sell a memory-based player.

So I suppose it's as fair for Microsoft to narrow the playing field as it was for Apple to do so. Still, I'd love to see the complete set of numbers.

Re:The "30 GB cathegory"?

[Rogerborg]

Also, they're counting Christmas and New Year sales; how are the returns looking?

iPod?

[sammykrupa]

"He said the Zune had a 10.2 percent market share in the U.S. in the 30 gigabyte category, "

Probably convenient that there is no 30 gigabyte iPod.

Sam Krupa

Re:iPod?

[Divebus]

Probably convenient that there is no 30 gigabyte iPod.

Nyuk Nyuk... the opposing team left the field at halftime and they still lost the game. oh puuullleeeezzzzzz..

Re:iPod?

[shawnce]

Actually one exists, available in black and white.

Of course it is a funny statement to see coming from Microsoft.

Re:iPod?

[sangreal66]

"He said the Zune had a 10.2 percent market share in the U.S. in the 30 gigabyte category, "

Probably convenient that there is no 30 gigabyte iPod.

Sam Krupa Ever iPod generation since the 3rd generation launched in 2003 has included a 30 gigabyte model.

Re:iPod?

[yuriismaster]

there is no 30 gigabyte iPod.

Uhmm...

But in all reality, it's the Nanos that dominate the market, not the 30GB videos.

Re:iPod?

[_xeno_]

You're right. My 5G iPod is actually a 27.82GB model according to the Capacity field in iTunes.

Re:iPod?

[LighterShadeOfBlack]

Probably convenient that there is no 30 gigabyte iPod. In fact there are no other 30GB portable music players, the Zune is the only one and it still only has 10.2% market share. That's

Re:iPod?

[VTrain0]

"Probably convenient that there is no 30 gigabyte iPod."

Uh, the current iPod comes in 30 and 80 gig varieties.

Re:iPod?

[LiquidCoooled]

Not really, its called marketing.
They grab the only figure that gives them a reasonable percentage (everything else will have been drowned out to nothingness)

Re:iPod?

[Divebus]

Hey... there is a 30gig iPod. So out of 9 different iPod models, the Zune had a 10.2% share of one of those which effectively means 1.13% share against iPods. Mix in every other player in contention and their market share is probably more like 0.04%.

Re:iPod?

[shawnce]

Just because it is marketing doesn't make the statement any less funny.

Re:iPod?

[rucs_hack]

the mere fact that they're having to mention just one catagory of the total player sales in the US to find a decent number is rather telling.

Re:iPod?

[tkrotchko]

It reminds me of a radio station in 20th place in the ratings, they'll pull weird stat out like... We're in 1st place for women between the ages of 48 and 52.

It's a way to rally the troops more than anything. The Zune is getting hammered like a rivet in a steel bridge.

Re:iPod?

[Kadin2048]

Of course it is a funny statement to see coming from Microsoft.

Well, what did you expect? "We think we have some overall marketshare, but we can't say for sure, because the figure is lower than the error in the survey"?

Re:iPod?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your final number is probably close to right, but your intermediary steps are a bit off. I suspect the market share of the different iPod capacities is not even close to even - the smaller ones sell better. And the iPod has a stunningly large percentage of the total - ~50%, IIRC. So probably Zune has about a 0.1% share against iPods, and a 0.05% share against all players.

Re:iPod?

[Divebus]

Yes. I spent about 45 seconds scouring the Internet looking for recent data on the sales of each type of iPod - nothing! So even if the non-30GB units don't sell better, that just creates a worst case number against the Zune.

But iPod stats don't matter much for European Zune sales. Microsoft will change a few things to make European Zune customers as happy as possible. Both of them.

Re:iPod?

[Technician]

the mere fact that they're having to mention just one catagory of the total player sales in the US to find a decent number is rather telling.


Claiming to have 100% of the brown 30 Gig player market was too obvious.

Sony still saying "no sharing"?

[yagu]

With a rollout in EU, and an anticipated 1M units sold by June here, what is the impact with the latest development whereby songs purchased for the Zune are not "squirtable" courtesy SONY's proscription? Is it really true about 50% of SONY songs purchased in the Microsoft way are not shareable with other Zune owners (if you can find them)?

If so, what is the Zune but yet another mp3 player (yamp?)? A music and video player offered by a corporation that betrayed not only those sucked into the siren song of "Plays for Sure", but betrayed the manufacturers of those devices.

I hope the buying public gets a whiff of this laughing gas before they open their digital wallets. The Zune needs to die, not on the vine, but in the ground.

Re:Sony still saying "no sharing"?

[garcia]

With a rollout in EU, and an anticipated 1M units sold by June here, what is the impact with the latest development whereby songs purchased for the Zune are not "squirtable" courtesy SONY's proscription? Is it really true about 50% of SONY songs purchased in the Microsoft way are not shareable with other Zune owners (if you can find them)?

I would guess that the sharing feature is not a show stopper for most people. The real question is whether or not the Zune will be priced under the iPod or any of the other "competitors". You have already mentioned the big reason why it's not a show stopper -- no one has a Zune anyway.

Re:Sony still saying "no sharing"?

[Breakfast Pants]

It's 100% of the SONY songs, which works out to about 50% of all songs.

Re:Sony still saying "no sharing"?

[battery111]

Let me start out by saying I am a loyal iPOD owner (and mac owner). However, The "squirt" feature really ain't that big of a deal to me, as long as microsoft is not trying to tout that feature too much given the current state of things with sony. Lets be honest. We didn't have a player capable of sharing before, and we pretty much still don't, so nothings really changed. So as long as the Zune is willing to compete on it's other merites (lol) then I have no problem with them giving it a go in europe. Perhaps as long as it's excessively overpriced there, they can get into the niche market of people with more money than sense.

10.2 percent?

[Rik Sweeney]

He said the Zune had a 10.2 percent market share in the U.S. in the 30 gigabyte category

How specific do you want to be? How about this:

He said the Zune had a 10.2 percent market share in the U.S. in the 30 gigabyte category, and 100 percent market share in the U.S. in the 30 gigabyte Zune category.

Re:10.2 percent?

[sinan]

He said the Zune had a 10.2 percent market share in the U.S. in the 30 gigabyte category

"If you can't make the numerator rarger, make the denominator smarrer."

      -- Guy Kawasaki - The Computer Curmudgeon

Poor math?

[Anonymous Coward]

10.2% of the market, but they've sold less then 1 million players? Something don't smell right.

Re:Poor math?

[sangreal66]

10.2% of the market, but they've sold less then 1 million players? Something don't smell right.
It means that 10.2% of 30gb players sold during the reporting period were Zunes, not that 10.2% of all 30gb players are Zunes.

Re:Poor math?

[jellomizer]

A common way of fluffing up your numbers is to narrow down what you consider competitive. In Microsoft Case they go 10.2% of the 30 Gig MP3 Players. So roughly 1 out of 10 people who decided they wanted a 30 Gig MP3 Player (not more and not less) got a Zune. Which is still bad considered that they should have gotten more from the Microsoffies who hate Apple so much that they will get a Zune, even if they don't listen to music, or need 30 Gig for one. Or the People who buy tech regularly just to check them out. I would have expected that the Zune would get 20% sales in that one area.

Possible reason for the move

[kanweg]

Is that because they have a big stockpile of unsold zunes?

Bert

Apple

[XnavxeMiyyep]

Obviously, this belongs in the Apple section of Slashdot...

Re:Apple

[Divebus]

No cross contamination, please.

Re:Apple

[Serious Callers Only]

*The most erroneous stories are those we think we know best - and therefore never scrutinize or question.*

Have you ever used anything but Windows? Didn't think so. Try taking your sig seriously.

Re:Apple

[that this is not und]

Apple doesn't only make gadgets (yet). And they're not a 'failed computer company' because they changed the name so that they're no longer a computer company.

So there. I guess.

Re:Apple

[TheRaven64]

The Slashdot categories are quite broken and have been for ages. There is no section for Free Software, for example, so articles about GNOME or KDE end up in the Linux or BSD category, in spite of the fact that they are relatively kernel-agnostic.

Re:Apple

[Breakfast Pants]

http://slashdot.org/search.pl?tid=109

Fishy Numbers

[Triv]

the Zune had a 10.2 percent market share in the U.S. in the 30 gigabyte category, according to the latest data...

That's fishy to me because it sounds like they mean of concurrent sales (meaning it wouldn't include people who bought 30gb iPods when Apple still made them in that size).

What that means is, of all media players sold this year that store 30GB of data that aren't iPods, the Zune has a 10% market share which, factoring in Apple's huge part of that market, is much, much smaller a percentage than it sounds like.

Triv

Re:Fishy Numbers

[sangreal66]

the Zune had a 10.2 percent market share in the U.S. in the 30 gigabyte category, according to the latest data...

That's fishy to me because it sounds like they mean of concurrent sales (meaning it wouldn't include people who bought 30gb iPods when Apple still made them in that size).

What that means is, of all media players sold this year that store 30GB of data that aren't iPods, the Zune has a 10% market share which, factoring in Apple's huge part of that market, is much, much smaller a percentage than it sounds like.

Triv

The latest iPod comes in 30GB and 80GB. Where are you guys getting this notion that Apple no longer makes 30GB iPods? A quick visit to apple.com will prove that untrue.

Re:Fishy Numbers

[WaZiX]

What are you talking about? They have HUGE market share on Brown/30 GB/Freescale i. MX31L processor ARM Core/3 Inch QVGA LCD screen(320×240) MP3 players!

Re:Fishy Numbers

[Triv]

The latest iPod comes in 30GB and 80GB. Where are you guys getting this notion that Apple no longer makes 30GB iPods? A quick visit to apple.com will prove that untrue.

You're absolutely right - I had it in my head that the iPods were coming in 60 and 80 gb flavors at the moment.

ah well.

triv

Re:Fishy Numbers

[fbjon]

Yeah, and if you add 'has a name that starts with Z' to that, they might even break the 30% mark!

Re:Fishy Numbers

[R3d M3rcury]

Possibly, but unlikely.

Happy with sales?!?!?

[Shabbs]

MS Sales Guy #1: "Hey! We sold one!!!!"
MS Sales Guy #2: "To EUROPE!!!!"
MS Sales Guy #1: "We are SO on fire!"
MS Sales Guy #2: "Hollah!!!"

Cliffhanger

[LighterShadeOfBlack]

In fact there are no other 30GB portable music players, the Zune is the only one and it still only has 10.2% market share. That's What's the end of that sentence? Tune in same time same place next week folks!

Re:Cliffhanger

[Alphager]

I have bookmarked this comment; i _will_ check back!

Re:Cliffhanger

[LighterShadeOfBlack]

In fact there are no other 30GB portable music players, the Zune is the only one and it still only has 10.2% market share. That's ...still no reason not to always carry your Anti-Zune Squirt Pills though.

Holy anti-climax Batman!

Out and out bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

He said the Zune had a 10.2 percent market share in the U.S. in the 30 gigabyte category

Bullshit. Maybe Microsoft means 1.02%. Or 10.2% for 3 days? The Zune just has not had that kind of penetration in any meaningful time period.

Re:Out and out bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all legit.

The figure is 10.2 % (V/p)

That's Verizon percents, of course.

It wasn't on Sale Here?

[WaZiX]

With all my excitement over Zune, I actually didn't realize it wasn't even on sale...

I've got a Zune

[Henry V .009]

My impressions:

• The wireless feature is fairly useless. It would be nice if lots of people owned Zunes, but I don't see that happening.
• The Zune software is really blah. That's unfortunate. I wish the Zune hardware interfaced with Windows Media Player 11, which I like more than iTunes. (The iTunes software is one reason I didn't get an iPod.)
• The killer feature, to me, is the unlimited download subscription service. I've been having a lot of fun with that.
• And finally, it's amazing to me how much money can be spend on a massively bad marketing campaign.

Re:I've got a Zune

[mochan_s]

And finally, it's amazing to me how much money can be spend on a massively bad marketing campaign.

I saw the Zune TV ads. It's share, share and happy people. There is a huge board of a happy girl (Joni Mitchell when she was very young looking) at Meijer (grocery store in Midwest). Anyway, you bought one so it worked.

The killer feature, to me, is the unlimited download subscription service. I've been having a lot of fun with that.

Welcome to 2 years ago. Real Rhapsody, Napster already did this. Also, Dell MP3 and other players could be used to put songs from there. But, over $100/year for crappy WMP is kinda rough.

Re:I've got a Zune

[EmbeddedJanitor]

... and you are able to read & write?

Please tell me you were given it and didn't actually buy it.

Re:I've got a Zune

[Technician]

The killer feature, to me, is the unlimited download subscription service. I've been having a lot of fun with that.

Remember that subscription songs are not squirtable, just in case you ever meet another Zune owner. The Zune has only one store. Plays for Sure stores are somewhat plentiful and have unlimited download subscription services. So what is the advantage to the Zune again? Bigger screen?

Re:I've got a Zune

[Rogerborg]

$180 a year. And you're renting the right to play their encrypted data on "your" device.

Re:I've got a Zune

[Rogerborg]

I do not think that "unlimited download subscription service" means what you think it means. Do you mean the rental of encrypted data, access to which terminates when your contract lapses, or when (not if, when) Microsoft shitcans the service?

Is that totally clear? When Microsoft decides (or is forced, mmm, patents) to EOL their music service, you'll be holding a paperweight, and every cent you've spent on its purchase and on renting encrypted data will be flushed down the crapper.

They'll never do that? I trust in that as much as I trust their "promise" on PlaysForSure.

Even fish would find that statement too fishy.

[Futurepower(R)]

MOD PARENT UP!!

This statement sounds fishy: "He said the Zune had a 10.2 percent market share in the U.S. in the 30 gigabyte category, according to the latest data,..."

I suspect most people don't buy the 30 GigaByte iPod. I suspect that the "latest data" is only for new sales, and doesn't take into account all the iPods already sold in that category.

I also suspect that the "latest data" is a complete lie. Most people who call themselves marketing professionals are professional liars more than anything, in my experience.

I'd like to know how many people with no knowledge of MP3 players bought a Zune to give to someone as a Christmas present. I'd like to know how many Zune owners are dissatisfied with them.

--
U.S. government violence encourages other violence.

Re:Even fish would find that statement too fishy.

[Anonymous Coward]

it should also be worth noting MS predictions for sales mean jack squat. If memory serves, they predicted they would sell a million by Christmas 2006. When that obviously didn't happen, they threw up their arms in joy and said they were pleased and that a million by june was their real target. At this rate, im sure they will be say "just wait to the back to schools season, thats when we strike!"

Re:Even fish would find that statement too fishy.

[Anonymous Coward]

The data come from NPD and are incomplete. They do not track sales from Amazon, Wal-Mart, Apple's retail stores, not their online store. When these are factored in, the 10.2% will inevitably fall.

Re:Even fish would find that statement too fishy.

[jacksonj04]

Just make it a 26.37gb player. Then it can claim to have 100% market share in its category.

Re:Even fish would find that statement too fishy.

[maeka]

Judging from Rockbox install queries, 30GB is far and away the most popular iPod size for generation 5/5.5.

Re:Even fish would find that statement too fishy.

[archen]

Not surprising since last I checked rockbox didn't support the 80gb iPod.

Re:Even fish would find that statement too fishy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but how many users that go "OMG iPod!!!!" buy it just to put rockbox on?

Re:Even fish would find that statement too fishy.

[maeka]

This was true even before generation 5.5.
Not that lack of support stops many of the support queries anyhoo.

Re:Even fish would find that statement too fishy.

[Anonymous Coward]

I understand what you mean. It IS hard to envision iPod owners caring about actual music quality and useful features rather than using a portable music device as a fashion accessory.

Re:Even fish would find that statement too fishy.

[Technician]

I also suspect that the "latest data" is a complete lie.

Maybe it's the after Christmas closeout sale stuff that didn't sell. Most other players were sold out. I went to 3 stores looking for a 30 Gig Zen. The droid at Best Buy thought I said Zune and didn't know about the Zen.

[OT] ask slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Are there any good players out there that are affordable that I can slap 15 GB of oggs, mp3s and older (ver 8) wma files on to?

Re:[OT] ask slashdot

[Technician]

Are there any good players out there that are affordable that I can slap 15 GB of oggs, mp3s and older (ver 8) wma files on to?


Will you take 2 out of 4? I have a cheap Coby flash player. It plays WMA and MP3's. It doesn't do DRM at all. It takes SD cards, so a small collection of SD cards will hold your 15 GB.

The best part is it is compatible with drag and drop on Mac, PC, and Linux. iPod owners can spend $25-30 for a third party application that returns this basic functionality back to an iPod. My player is in the price range of the other players add on software.

Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Just can't stand the thought that their DRM isn't in everyones pocket, infecting the worlds media files.

Re:Microsoft

[LaughingCoder]

Just can't stand the thought that their DRM isn't in everyones pocket, infecting the worlds media files.

I know what you mean. It must drive them nuts that it's Apple's DRM that is in everyone's pocket, infecting the world's media files.

Low bar

[ScrewMaster]

Happy with the sales ...

I guess their expections were rather on the low side.

The market share percentage is misleading

[PapayaSF]

The market share percentage is certainly misleading when you look at the raw numbers: the Zune was introduced in November, and by June (7 months later) they say they will have sold 1 million. On the other hand, Apple sold 21 million iPods in the last quarter alone, and over 8 million in each of the previous 3 quarters.

In other words, by June Apple should be selling about as many iPods every 10 days as there were Zunes sold in 7 months. Put it that way, and it's hard for Microsoft to brag about.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[MrNonchalant]

In October 2001 a music player was introduced. By the end of that year it had sold just 125,000 units. That MP3 player was the iPod. The Zune's launch figures mean very little, what it does in the next few years is everything. It's far too early to call this match.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[Platina86]

But in 2001, the marked for mp3 players wasnt that big. Like it is now. So its a little misleading. When you are saying it that way.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

On the other hand, Apple sold 21 million iPods in the last quarter alone, and over 8 million in each of the previous 3 quarters.

Yes, but how many of those are iPod Shuffles? How many are iPod Nanos? While I'm sure that the (full-size) iPod has outsold the Zune by a considerable margin, it's only fair to compare the Zune to its direct competition.

I'm sure the Honda Fit has outsold the Lexus GS600 by a big margin too, but it's not a perticularly important comparison.

Regardless, the fact is that the current generation Zune isn't that great. But, then again, neither is the current iPod.

I'm not referring to features, I'm referring to design. For one, the iPod needs a proprietary cable - forget about syncing/charging with a standard mini-USB cable (some Creative players do this). It has a screen that is too small for watching anything of consequence. The touch wheel is - well - touchy. It scratches easily. It shows fingerprints.

Oh, and then there's iTunes. It takes at least ~5 seconds to start on either a Mac or a PC (Windows Media Player starts in 2 on my box), it uses neither the Mac nor the Windows interface, it can't monitor folders for new music, the store is slow, and the app becomes unusably while transferring tracks to an iPod. Oh, and don't ever try connecting your iPod Shuffle to a second computer - you don't want to press the wrong button and erase all of your tracks.

Look, it's not that the iPod is such a great PMP - it's just that everything else on the market sucks! If I could get a stable music player that:

- Plays music directly off its filesystem (which can be accessed as a USB mass storage device), so I don't need software!
- Has a mini-USB connector for sync and charge
- Plays MPEG-1, MPEG-2, XVID, and H.264 (with a decent range of resolution and bitrate options, bonus points for FLV support)
- Has a decent UI
- Is as small as an iPod Nano

Why can't someone do this? All of the no-name players have the feature list down, but they invariably have crappy UIs and/or crappy form factors.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[ZombieRoboNinja]

A similar argument was made with the first Xbox versus PS2. Microsoft sold their console at a lost (unlike Sony in that generation) and STILL didn't push nearly as many consoles. But Microsoft toughed it out, established themselves as a "major player" in the console wars, and now, one generation later, a whole lot of people (including the Slashdot Collective) are betting they'll beat out Sony this time around.

Same idea here, it looks like. Wedge yourself into the market, deal with the BSOD jokes, but keep up the marketing push and in the long run, nobody's laughing anymore.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[slamb]

Your feature list would cripple the product.

- Plays music directly off its filesystem (which can be accessed as a USB mass storage device), so I don't need software!

Not easy to do well. Either it has a horrible UI (like all of the no-name players you mention) which can't handle searching by ID3 tags, or it has to do its own indexing. The latter is not easy - even recognizing when new files show up is not trivial, given that the computer is talking to it through the USB mass storage interface as a block device! It would have to have some weird code to translate the block requests back into filesystem requests and check on each request until the whole file shows up, or just suspend while talking to the computer (no music when it's plugged in) and walk the entire filesystem for changes afterward (probably slow).

- Has a mini-USB connector for sync and charge

I think mini-USB connectors have extreme current limitations. It'd either have low battery life or would take forever to charge. Is carrying around the (included) iPod cable so much of a problem that you're willing to accept that tradeoff?

- Plays MPEG-1, MPEG-2, XVID, and H.264 (with a decent range of resolution and bitrate options, bonus points for FLV support)

My 1GHz G4 PowerBook skips when playing fancier, newer codecs. Do you think they can make an affordable, low-power, miniaturized system that has even a fighting chance?

- Has a decent UI

Development and UI testing take time and money. There doesn't seem to be much money left after the cost of your hardware, and sometimes design choices are incompatible with having a good UI. There are certain patented interface options (scroll wheel, some touch screen stuff now) not available to most vendors, either.

- Is as small as an iPod Nano

Miniaturization is expensive, and flash is still more expensive than spindle. You were just talking about video, so you probably want a lot of space, too.

Why can't someone do this? All of the no-name players have the feature list down, but they invariably have crappy UIs and/or crappy form factors.

You've listed a bunch of features which aren't that important to most consumers yet would cripple the product and send its cost through the roof. If these no-name players do all of these...well, no wonder why they're no-name players. They made poor design decisions.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[countach]

Every iPod sold, even the little shuffle, has a tendency to lock users into iTunes. Thus buy a shuffle today, next year it may be a full size model iPod, rather than a zune.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but the reason Microsoft has been able to gain huge market share with the Xbox 360 is because Sony stumbled in a major way. To be accurate your analogy requires Apple to put out a music player that is over expensive, under performing, ill conceived and WAY late to market. I don't see this happening.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[Surur]

You obviously have not heard of the IPhone (how's that cave?) And look, it costs exactly the same as the two PS3 SKU's!

Surur

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[Barnoid]

But then again, almost everybody who would ever want an mp3 player has one by now. Putting it that way, it's probably more difficult to enter an already saturated market.

The whole thing reminds me of the XBox: MS didn't sell many units at first, and we were laughing at them. But now, the XBox360 is already outselling the Wee and the Playstation3 (although not the PS2).

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[Watson Ladd]

The thing is your 1GHz mac is using a CPU instead of a dedicated ciruit, and is playing at very high resolutions, along with OS overhead. A player can use a minimal OS, a dedicated chip, and low resolution.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[Anonymous Coward]

My phone (3G iMate JasJam running - shudder - Windows Mobile 5) charges quite quickly via mini USB, and that thing is an absolute power hog.

The thing is, the no name players aren't all crap. Many of them have superior features to the (IMHO) fairly mediocre iPod, albeit without iTunes and a fancy case with an Apple logo.

And of course your assertion that the public doesn't want any features that the iPod doesn't already have is unquestionably logical! Well done!

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[slamb]

The thing is your 1GHz mac is using a CPU instead of a dedicated ciruit, and is playing at very high resolutions, along with OS overhead. A player can use a minimal OS, a dedicated chip, and low resolution.

Wrong on all points. The players would decode with the CPU as well, unless you're expecting separate hardware for each of these half-dozen codecs you're demanding. Low resolutions don't help enough - I've seen skipping playing a 480i (SDTV) clip, and whether I'm viewing that in a tiny window or scaling it up to be full-screen makes little difference to the pegged CPU. OS overhead is insignificant - it's easy to measure, since OS X distinguishes between the user time of the Quicktime/VLC/whatever process, system time, and time used by other processes such as the window server. The decoding itself is where the CPU time is going.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[slamb]

My phone (3G iMate JasJam running - shudder - Windows Mobile 5) charges quite quickly via mini USB, and that thing is an absolute power hog.

How did you determine that it's a power hog? If by the battery not lasting very long, you've made my point.

And of course your assertion that the public doesn't want any features that the iPod doesn't already have is unquestionably logical! Well done!

Ahh, the old straw man. Nicely played.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[Achromatic1978]

Here's a. Hint. Periods are not. Something. That you. Insert. At random. Every few. Words.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about? That situation is already here. That's why people are looking for alternatives to the iPod now.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[imsabbel]

The concept of DSPs hasnt really reached your cave, right?

Hint: there are even ARM cpus with DSP coprocessors used in pdas and the like.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[Duds]

Sony absolutely sold the PS2 at a loss, at least initially.

But yes, it's difficult to predit right now. Especially as, much like Sony, they appear to not give a shit about Europe.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[weave]

In October 2001 the ipod was only compatible with Macs too. If you were a PC user, you couldn't use one.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[LKM]

What are you talking about? That situation is already here. That's why people are looking for alternatives to the iPod now.

No. Those who are looking for alternatives are doing so because they need to be counter-culture at all costs. Of course, buying a Zune is the ultimate irony, then.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[LKM]

There are only two versions of the PS3, and both are priced similarly. Different situation with the iPod/iPhone.

Re:The market share percentage is misleading

[fotbr]

You. Can if. You're. Captain Kirk.

The fine point

[Anonymous Coward]

EU != Europe

Re:The fine point

[goarilla]

no EU == 'la crème de la crème of Europe' :D

i kid i kid
i consider the scandinavian countries (Norway, Sweden, ... ) to be part of Europe's elite as well :D

Re:The fine point

[Weedlekin]

"i consider the scandinavian countries (Norway, Sweden, ... ) to be part of Europe's elite as well"

Sweden has been in the EU since 1995.

So wait...

[Kohaku Nanaya]

They're going to launch the Zune in EU, but not in Canada? Do they fear our ability to legally download over here? Oh well... even if it isn't that, I never expect Microsoft to do things logically a lot of the time.

Re:So wait...

[oliderid]

Well I live in Europe. You can have mine. Don't thank me.

Re:So wait...

[yoprst]

They're going to launch the Zune in EU, but not in Canada?
"They're not real country anyway"

Re:So wait...

[Kohaku Nanaya]

Oh, no, don't get me wrong... I don't actually -want- a Zune. I was merely pointing out the fact that they haven't released it to Canada yet, which is a little strange.

Re:So wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially considering that, historically speaking, Microsoft has always been very cogniscent of the Northern neighbors. It used to be that all product literature they made with pricing listed the price in CAD immediately afterward.

"Microsoft to Launch Zune in EU"

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, thank heavens! Finally! I was about to die of fear that would never happen!

*tosses his iPod into a lake*

I hope I won't sound sarcastic, because I am.

Zune

[WiseMuse]

What are the odds of Microsoft getting majority market share in the next 5 years? Give odds and justification.

Re:Zune

[Knuckles]

What? The odds are zero, plain and simple.Justification: everyone has been burned by Windows/Office, and consequently nobody trusts them with a just-work product. I don't know about US and rest of Europe, but in Germany the _best_ attitude they get from consumers is respect for the ruthlessness with which they won the OS market.

Re:Zune

[LaughingCoder]

I think majority market share is pretty unlikely, even as far out as 5 years, unless they decide to subsidize the Zune and sell it much cheaper than iPods. As everyone has seen with Windows, it is very hard to displace an entrenched brand unless the market dominator really screws up. However, if they did offer Zunes at a substantial (30%-50%) price advantage over iPods, AND if they beefed up the applications for the WiFi feature, they could conceivably displace iPods when people make their replacement purchases in the 2-4 year timeframe. Imagine a partnership with Skype, for example, so that the Zune could function as a Skype handset. Imagine partnering with Toyota or other auto manufacturers so your Zune, via WiFi, could wirelessly stream your music through your car stereo. Just as the XBox is a stealthy assault on the desktop PC, the Zune could be a stealthy assault on the PDAs, Smartphones, and portable music players. Of course there are alot of "ifs" in this paragraph.

Re:Zune

[speculatrix]

What are the odds of Microsoft getting majority market share in the next 5 years? Give odds and justification.

People laughed at the xbox, and said how will they beat Sony and its PS2? The xbox360 is now wiping the floor with the PS3. However, this is as much due to Sony's failures as MS's successes - to repeat this trick with Zune and Zune-v2, MS need Apple to really f*$%-up badly!

Re:Zune

[Technician]

However, if they did offer Zunes at a substantial (30%-50%) price advantage over iPods, AND if they beefed up the applications for the WiFi feature,

And had a store for the tunes with prices 50% lower with a full catalog....

People buy iPods because they can use it at the hottest online music store. Nobody buys a Zune so they can shop at the MS Zune store. I haven't heard one rave review of the wonderful selection and prices at the Zune store except one person here in this thread. Someone likes the Subscription model for unlimited downloads. Other than that, I have not heard anything about the online music store.

Re:Zune

[Technician]

MS need Apple to really f*$%-up badly!


Maybe they will include the Sony rootkit and Sony batteries. After all I heard Sony is starting to use Apple's AAC format. Maybe they traded tech. ;-)

Re:Zune

[LaughingCoder]

People buy iPods because they can use it at the hottest online music store.

I disagree. According to this graph:

http://www.blackfriarsinc.com/blog/2006/12/do-math -itunes-sales-arent-collapsing.html
iTunes sells about 22 songs per iPod sold. Something tells me most (all?) iPods have WAAAY more than 22 songs in them. So what are people putting in their iPods? Open mp3s of course. The iPod is a really nice mp3 that *ocassionally* is used to hold songs purchased from iTunes, but that is far from its primary usage.

Re:Zune

[Technician]

I disagree. According to this graph:

Sorry I generalized too much. I should have said some people buys iPods to use the iTunes store. The store does infulence some buying decisions. On the other hand, there are not many people who buy Zunes. Even fewer if any buy it because of the wonderful selection a great prices at the Zune store. I've heard reviewers bash the store due to the 4 registrations required to shop at the store and the store doesn't take dollars, but uses something called Zune Points to obscure how much the music really costs.

One fact that is an issue with many iPod users are they are young enough to not have a credit card. They fill their iPod from their CD collection, their friends CD collection, and songs from peer to peer. They can't shop at the iTunes store with an exception of a gift card. The largest demographic of iPod owners can't buy iTunes with small pocket change. Picking up a $50 gift card is just too big of a chunk of change.

The other thing I have heard is Sony and another label is severely restricting the songs that can be squirted.

The reviewers laugh at it. I haven't heard comments from end users who use the store. I haven't heard of anybody who bought the Zune to use the store.

Re:Zune

[LaughingCoder]

The biggest impediment I see to iPod users switching to Zune is Apple's DRM. Once users have bought a collection of songs from iTunes (even if it's only 20 or 30) they won't want to throw them away by switching DRM vendors, so they will be pre-disposed to buy another compatible player (and since "fairplay" is Apple only, they will be forced to buy from Apple again). This is actually an aspect of DRM that is not as often discussed. People focus on the lack of portability, but not from the perspective of vendor lockin. heck, one could imaging Apple indexing iPod pricing to iTunes "installed base". As users become more and more encumbered by "fairplay" they become less and less price-sensitive on the cost of the player. In this scenario it seems Microsoft would need to come up with some sort of iTunes trade-in program whereby users could get new Zune-DRM'd versions of any file they bought from iTunes for free or a nominal fee.

Re:Zune

[Technician]

Once users have bought a collection of songs from iTunes (even if it's only 20 or 30) they won't want to throw them away by switching DRM vendors

Which is exactly why I call any DRM format a Walled Garden and Incompatible with almost everyting.

I have stuck with MP3's. If everyone voted against DRM with their pocketbook, it would have died on the vine long ago. The music industry is in business to sell a product. Buy the music, but reject the DRM. Support e-music instead of iTunes. The artists will follow the money.

Ballmer said 20-25% of all hard disks models

[Peter Bonte]

And now its just 10.5 % in the 30 gigabyte category? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo Ballmer really has no clue at all. :P

Re:Ballmer said 20-25% of all hard disks models

[The Tessellator]

And the firm that compiled that statistic (10.5% of the 30GB models) doesn't count figures from stores like Amazon, Walmart the Apple retail stores or Apple online.

If you looks at the numbers really sold during the Christmas season (zune sold, perhaps, a couple hundred thousand vs even 15 million iPods) you realise that the zune doesn't even have 2% of Apple's market much less the entire market.

I would be surprised if they have much more than a 1% share of the total market

Memo Steve to Bill

[Anonymous Coward]

Bill, We are so excited about the launch of the Zune in Europe. We estimate that we will get close on 90% of the market share in the 30GB MP3 Pleayer range within one month from launch.
The feedback from our focus groups has been fantastic. We will be launching a Pink version instead of the brown one that has been so successful in the US. Pink is a far more "Hip" european colour.
IT is unfortunate that SONY have made us disable the sharing facility but between you and me, I am sure that there are a few hackers out there that will 'fix' it for our valued customers. This fools at Sony and Disney must be mad to think that their petty restrictions will stop sharing? Please! They can't be serious.
Following our fantastic Vista launch Worldwide we are taking lots of market share from the evil Jobs and his geeks at Apple.
Novell are creating lots of lovely FUD and anger in the L***X world. They are in complete chaos (that is close to their normal state)
Finally,
  Our links to SCO have been totally destroyed. I await your instructions for the next step in absorbing Novell (At last. They have been a thorn in our side for far to long) into the Microsoft Family. Then we will be able to go after RedHat without fear.

Your obedient(mindless) servant and chair thrower,
  Steve.

Brown in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

You gotta be careful with brown stuff in Europe. In the European mind brown = nazi, just like red = communist. Apple took black and white, not much left for Microsoft, Orange is out, blue? well, that's so cliche, green? ... nah... I think they just need not even bother with a copy cat attempt. They should focus on a good search engine, that could dominate the world. Well, they missed that, too... I guess, they just don't have any affinity left for sensing "next killer stuff". Maybe they just have to be in the prison of the office business for the rest of their existence.

Re:Brown in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Colours.
  Orange = Dutch Protestant and Protestant churches in Northern Ireland
  Green = Republican Irish ( ok with White and Orange) but White and Green means Catholic in Scotland (Colours of Hibs and Celtic)
  Brown = Facists in Germany, Italy.
  Red is not Communist. Red = Ferrari

  My best guess for a Zune Colour is RED. Remember Michael Schumaker won 7 F1 GP Titles in a RED car. Red is also the colour of Love and Valentines day is coming soon.

  Personally, I would go with British Racing Green. It is not as in your face as Red and has an honorable pedigree.

Re:Brown in Europe

[abundance]

uh? I'm european, and never noticed that. As far as I can tell, the usual black is the color associated to fascism and nazism. Anyway, I'm from italy, maybe the germans have a different perception.

Re:Brown in Europe

[Albert Sandberg]

I'm from sweden and I think I speak for most europeans when I say brown does not make me think nazi. It makes me think shit :)

Re:Brown in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Brown is indeed associated with fascism in large parts of europe and especially germany and austria. The reason is that the NSDAP (Hitler's party, what you mean when you talk of 'Nazis') had brown shirts as their official uniform for party members.

For the same reason, black is associated with fascism in italy, Mussolinis party (don't know the name) had black shirts. There was even a (spanish I think) song not long ago named 'la camisa negra' meaning 'the black shirt', which was somewhat popular with fascists in italy because of that phrase, which sounds almost the same in italian.

On topic: I will definitely not buy a zune, it is castrated in too many aspects, literally looks shitty, is from Microsoft and the logo looks and reads like an anus. Too smelly for my taste.

Re:Brown in Europe

[j_zero]

Schumi actually won 2 of his titles BEFORE he went to Ferrari. He drove for Benetton and captured 94 and 95 titles with them.

94-95 Schumacher Benetton
96 Hill Williams-Renault
97 Villeneuve Williams-Renault
98-99 Hakinen McLaren-Mercedes
0-04 Schumacher Ferrari

Re:Brown in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember Michael Schumaker won 7 F1 GP Titles in a RED car.

I'd rather not, thanks anyway (*grumble* *grumble*)

Re:Brown in Europe

[Divebus]

think I speak for most europeans when I say brown does not make me think nazi. It makes me think shit :)

OT: You made me pass a mouthful of Margarita through my nose... very funny.

fair warning?

[mgabrys_sf]

Is this a promise or a threat? I've seen wars started over less.

Brown?

[loconet]

Microsoft is going to be sending little brown things to the EU? Is this as a response of the EU sanctions?

Re:Brown?

[dingen]

Microsoft is going to be sending little brown things to the EU? Is this as a response of the EU sanctions?

Little is hardly a term to describe the Zune by. The shitbricks Microsoft will be shipping are quite bulky!

Re:Brown?

[DittoBox]

In a flaming bag, no less...

When You Head up the Zune Product & Ballmer...

[BoRegardless]

is your Boss, you had BETTER be quick & nimble with the BIG WORDS, & the HOT PLANS, & the NEW MARKET ENTRY at the NEXT HOLIDAY season, & (most important of all)...

You had best get your RESUME OUT THERE NOW, and get that FLACK JACKET & HELMET on because you never known when chairs are going to fly again.

None of this is surprising to anyone I've talked to. No One!

What I am hearing from diehard PC users I run across is subdued speculation, and NOT about Zune. The speculation is all whether VISTA will mean anything to them.

I pity the project managers under Ballmer, because their stomachs must be tied in a knot 24 hours a day. Been there, done that, and you can't survive long that way.

-better- europeans

[mbaudis]

we certainly think so. but then, we lack the outstanding politicians the current u.s. of a. is graced with ;-)

European modifications..

[pesc]

Microsoft planned extensive research with focus groups in Europe to see how it could be modified for a European consumer.

Beige?

Re:European modifications..

[Ash-Fox]

Beige?

Many new PCs where I am are black actually.

Re:European modifications..

[dunkelfalke]

you mean african american, right?

Re:European modifications..

[edwardpickman]

In an attempt to make the Zune appeal to French buyers, Gates suggested it be named Le Merde. The VPs drew lots to see who would explain to him what the word meant.

Re:European modifications..

[Technician]

in Europe to see how it could be modified for a European consumer.


DRM free? Working WiFi for wireless home networking and streaming maybe?

Advice for MS and Apple:

[crhylove]

Hi, I would love to buy one of your products. I have a great idea to make them desirable to me and other technology savvy individuals:

Please remove all DRM. Please allow 3rd party apps.

If you do those two things, you can expect much higher sales, and to beat the competition, including each other. If you don't, *I* and most of the people I know, will continue bidding for older ipods on ebay that we can install linux on and have the features we desire, making you guys zero dollars in the process.

Thank you.
rhY

PS Some other company will do this and take all of your sales if you don't. It's called the free market.

Re:Advice for MS and Apple:

[nightgeometry]

I forget which, but don't Archos or iRiver pretty much support 3rd party apps (well, 3rd party OS). As far as DRM is concerned, it looks like either it can be there and totally ignored (i.e. as per most mp3 players - if you don't buy music online then it shouldn't affect you), or add restrictions on receive (only one I can think of is the Zune and it's WiFi restrictions). So DRM really shouldn't be that much of a deal breaker, should it (apart from using WiFi).

And before y'all call me a DRM apologist - no, I don't think it is a *good thing*. I have no DRM-ed music on my music player - it's just the fact that my music player supports DRM doesn't really affect me, as far as I can tell. (Okay - it does in that the machine is more complex than it need be, potentially, I do accept that).

So I guess the question is - why is the fact that a music player supports DRM a deal breaker? For me the more DRM formats supported the better! Much as I hate wma files in general, and protected 'fair play' AAC, I wish I had a player that supported both - I actually like the idea of a subscription music service (I'm not sure what download amount restrictions apply, but I'd happily spend £10 a month to just download and try different types of music, if it were an unlimited amount of downloads. I do understand that as soon as I stop subscribing I lose the music - but 2 months in a year I'd happily subscribe, to get a lot of tracks from artists I don't really know and from types of music I don't normally listen to. Play them, sort out which artists appeal, then trash the lot and buy some CD's...

Anyway - that turned into a longer reply than I intended.

(And offtopic - I noticed that your sig seems to be in support of an American band that look dangerously like they support the IRA - do they? And if so do you find that offensive?)

Re:Advice for MS and Apple:

[crhylove]

The problem is that DRM hurts everybody. The artist, the consumer, the quality of audio, the quality of audio device, the economy, and even human dignity. On some levels it ruins a fundamental part of the very experience that art is supposed to convey.

Granted, you can get an ipod (or in particular a linux formatted 3rd gen ipod), and put regular unDRMed mp3s on it. As you point out it does make the player unnecessarily more complicated, among other minor problems. However, the fact that there is no free market competitor offering a solid product in the same place, shows that our loss of democracy in 1963 also has led to our loss of free markets as well. (I don't consider those other brand's products as solid competitors. I wonder at their lack of quality with respect to build and ergonomics.)

With reference to the band, they don't support the IRA as such. The IRA is an ugly failed solution to an ugly problem. However, as an analog to our own founding fathers, who I hold in very high regard, I'd say that they have more in common with Franklin and Washington, than the Crown, who interestingly was and is the same enemy. I can speak with some authority on these issues because I have researched them, because I'm IN that band.

Terrorism is ugly, but much uglier is the wanton destruction of human life that is corporate greed and imperialism. The blood on IRA hands I'm sure is a drop in the ocean of blood that is on CIA hands at this point, for instance.

Don't let the lack of a free press in most of the "free" world color your opinions too deeply. History has shown that those attempting to evict a conquering force (win or lose), were generally in the right, and as ugly as it sounds, this means the IRA, the PLO, The American Indians, Hamas, and a myriad of other murderous freedom fighters who have little choice other than to fight or starve.

If you really want to stop the killing (which I'm in complete agreement with you on), you would probably serve yourself and others better by demanding real democracy, and real elections. If we had that here (in the US), I doubt Vietnam, Iraq, or any of the myriad of world problems we've caused would have happened, or at least not gotten quite so bad. Remember that Saddam was the guy WE put in power, shortly after killing our rightful leader (JFK). So maybe Iraq would be a burgeoning civil democracy (like we used to be!) now, had we not done that initially. Who's to say? Certainly we've completely fucked over Iran and all of South America, and largely because we do not have real elections and real representation any more.

rhY

Re:Advice for MS and Apple:

[Petrushka]

I forget which, but don't Archos or iRiver pretty much support 3rd party apps (well, 3rd party OS).

Really, there's no shortage. I just found the DAP database, where you can enter a set of criteria, bring up detailed comparison tables, and find the audio player that suits you -- e.g. if my ideal criteria are support for FLAC/Vorbis, good battery life, good HDD space, data transfer with any OS, and radio, I can easily find out that the Cowon range is the one for me.

I haven't yet seen any results mentioning the Zune, probably because when I'm entering criteria, I'm entering criteria that I want, and they pretty much rule the Zune out immediately ...

Re:Advice for MS and Apple:

[Technician]

(Okay - it does in that the machine is more complex than it need be, potentially, I do accept that).


If you shop carefully, you can find DRM free players. I have one. It's simple drag and drop loading. No software needed. Compatible with Mac, Windows, Linux, or anything that supports USB flash drives. Plays MP3's and WMA (non-DRM only). Records off the mic or radio and saves the result as MP3's which can be copied off the device.

I won't trade it for Fairplay, Zune, or Plays for Sure compatibility if it removes any of the above features.

Not a plug, just so you know what I found. I bought a $40 Coby flash player and a few extra SD cards.

Europe collectively.....

[edwardpickman]

Yawns

Re:Europe collectively.....

[Anonymous Coward]

I see this going over as well as the overwhelming success of EuroDisney. And while we're at it, let's put the subscription price in dollars rather than euros/pounds, then lead a crusade into their homes as apart of our "War on Metric". That'll get them on our good side.

Silly Americans, we'll never learn

Where can I find real data

[DavidShor]

I want to actually see the market share reports, instead of relying on press releases.

I don't believe it

[93 Escort Wagon]

"... Zune had a 10.2 percent market share in the U.S. in the 30 gigabyte category ..."

I have a hard time believing this - with even 10% market share, I think I'd have seen one "in the wild" by now.

Re:I don't believe it

[freedom_india]

The 10.2 percent marketshare refers to the 30GB storage catefory.
Out of all the 30GB hard-disks bought last year, 10.2 percent bought for the purpose was Zune to be used as an external hard disk,

Re:I don't believe it

[Technician]

I have a hard time believing this - with even 10% market share, I think I'd have seen one "in the wild" by now.

With all the ribbing, who would admit to having one? If I got one for Christmas, I would stick it in my pocket and keep it there. I might pick up a nice pair of white headphones to go with it.

Re:I don't believe it

[Technician]

Out of all the 30GB hard-disks bought last year, 10.2 percent bought for the purpose was Zune to be used as an external hard disk,


Check the reviews and hacks. It takes a registrey hack to use it as an external hard drive. There are much better choices for players that double as USB drives. The Creative Zen has a partitioning option to set aside part of the disk for use as a USB drive with no registery hacks needed. The 80 Gig Zen is not that much more expensive than the 30 Gig Zune.

If you did get a Zune to use as a USB drive, here is some info on the hack.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/24/zune-usb-drive- hack-splained/

On the map

[vmxeo]

They're not trying to play catch-up at the moment ... they're just trying to get on the map.

Comparatively speaking, it's a bit like Sealand's efforts to try and "get on the map" as a country when it's sitting right next to the much larger, more recognized, and somewhat more respected Isle-of-Great-Britain-like Apple.

Re:On the map

[shoemilk]

Interesting comparison. The number of people who bought a Zune is probably the same as the population of Sealand.

Opinion on the Zune

[rjdegraaf]

Check out the video on the Zune Player (very funny, but true).

It discusses:
- MS Zune's does not work with MS Windows Vista
- MS Zune's incompatibility with (even) MSN Music Format (you have to rebuild your music collection)
- 4 registration's before buying music from the Zune music store (when player installs, MS passport, Music Store Website, Tag registration)
- Zune points for buying music, to mislead consumers on the price of music (1 Zune point > 1 dollar, thus 0.79 ZunePoint looks cheaper)
- Zune player WiFi music share expires songs shared after 3 times listening or 3 days (whichever comes first)

Hilarious!

See also: CNN.com ridicules Zune Player

Re:Opinion on the Zune

[speculatrix]

I thought MS had released patches for Vista to talk to Zune? However, dropping Plays4Sure will seriously annoy previously happy MS fanboys. The wifi could have made Zune great, but now it's just a focus of derision.

Re:Opinion on the Zune

[weslocke]

It discusses:
- MS Zune's does not work with MS Windows Vista
- MS Zune's incompatibility with (even) MSN Music Format (you have to rebuild your music collection)
- 4 registration's before buying music from the Zune music store (when player installs, MS passport, Music Store Website, Tag registration)
- Zune points for buying music, to mislead consumers on the price of music (1 Zune point > 1 dollar, thus 0.79 ZunePoint looks cheaper)
- Zune player WiFi music share expires songs shared after 3 times listening or 3 days (whichever comes first)

Hilarious!

You know, this is the same basic list I see over and over of people complaining about the Zune... mostly by people who have never owned or even used one.

I have two of the things, actually. I originally started with a Rio Karma, and got a 4gig Nano to use while exercising. When my Karma died (I felt like someone had shot my puppy) I was in the market for a new player. After using the Nano for a year or so I knew that an iPod wouldn't be a good choice for me.

I ended up getting my wife a Zune for an Xmas present (Had a lot of 'Customer Reward' certificates built up, and got the thing for next to free. Figured 'Why not give it a shot?' Got her the brown one) While I was loading up music that I ripped from her CDs so that when she opened the box on Christmas it'd be preloaded, I really liked the thing so I went out and got myself one.

She loves hers, and the interface was super easy for her to use (her first player) and she raved about the color. She loves being able to put her own pictures as backgrounds, watch videos in the car, and whatnot. She gets me to load music, so it's no biggie to her.

As far as I'm concerned, I think it's a great player. Easy to use, great sound and video quality, etc. Sure you use the Zune software to load music, but I had to use the Rio software for the Karma, and for all intents and purposes you really need to use the iTunes software for the iPod. (I know you can use MSC, but if you do then you lose so many of the 'bells and whistles'. And is it really that much of a pain to drag and drop onto a progam instead of into a folder?)

So that's my background. Now then, that list.

1) The thing works fine with Vista. And it has since about 2 weeks after its launch. A-Ok. Not a problem at all. And when you consider that at the time the business version of Vista had only shipped a few days before the patch was released, does that slight delay matter? Ok, it's a 'ha-ha' point, but that's all.

2-4) These are all points about the Zune software, not the player. And since you can use the software for just about any player out there (it's not actually Zune player specific), it doesn't have any bearing on the player. And since I worked at a music store for waaay too long, that %40 discount I used to get (and leave me broke)I really don't give a darn what they do with the store. I've got a couple of thousand legally purchased CDs worth of ripped music to listen to.

5) The 3x3 thing is really an issue with people? Of course M$ will try to limit people giving out free copies of everyone within 50 feet of the player. I would too. And how in the heck is the player supposed to know whether you're trying to share a new track by your brother garage band or some top 40 hit? "Really, that Creative Commons bit on that track is valid... reeeaalllyy..." I can understand them doing it that way, and in all honesty if someone wants to listen to it more than that just email 'em the thing.

Hmm... other complaints....

Battery life is crap - Well, I'm getting about 12 or so hours of playback under normal conditions. That's with a decent volume, pausing quite frequently as annoying co-workers seem to not want me to finish a freaking song. Oh, and with a 1min backlight and the wireless turned off. (I have no desire to squirt at work)

It's freaking ginormous - Doesn't seem that big to me. Comfortably fits i

Lost marketshare

[edxwelch]

Other media players don't have the same limitation as Zune. Zune only can connect to Windows XP PCs, so they loose the marketshare of Windows 2000, Mac and Linux

Re:Lost marketshare

[Technician]

Zune only can connect to Windows XP PCs,

Great! it is incompatible with all my computers. Good thing I didn't buy one.

On the other hand, my cheap Coby flash player is comptatible with everything I have except my antique Windows 95 laptop. It doesn't have USB. I keep it because it has a built in MIDI port. It is my piano tutor.

The Coby is compatible with Win 2K, Linux (Ubuntu), and Windows 98 SE as well as my workplace XP box.

It looks like the new MS standard is incompatibility.

Microsoft's four steps to Zune profitability

[kimvette]

1. Introduce Zune in the USA where we have fascist copyright laws and allow DRM to remove Fair Use
2. Watch Zune fail
3. Introduce Zune in Europe in the hopes it will succeed there, where DRM's blocking of Fair Use is illegal in some countries, resulting in Zune's ultimate failure and going the way of Microsoft Bob
4. ??? Profit ???

exc...?

[Anonymous Coward]

With all my excitement over Zune

I've read it excrement.

Re:exc...?

[rolfwind]

Excrement over Zune? Would that change the appearance at all? I think not.

Gahh...

[Awod]

Took too long to notice this story now I can't do the ob. joke "both of them" or rather all 4 of them now..

Windows Mobile.

[gilesjuk]

Microsoft has missed a golden opportunity to release their own Windows Mobile media device, it has everything they needed but instead they create a custom device which does less.

The Zune would have had a wealth of software including GPS.

MOD PARENT UP

[dpbsmith]

How refreshing to read something about the Zune by a real consumer who actually has one and is saying things that have the ring of truth to them.

(It doesn't bother you that everything you've bought will go poof if you don't keep paying $15 every month?)

greatest humanitarian, in the truly devil category

[Anonymous Coward]

"... Zune had a 10.2 percent market share in the U.S. in the 30 gigabyte category ..."

Dear Billonaire, Philantrope Bill Gates!

The statements like the one above are exactly what will prevent you to buy the big humanitarian philantrope legacy.
These statements just reinforce the cheap sleezbag reality over the manfactured image.
It's like saying that Bill Gates is the greatest humanitarian around the world, in the truly devil category of humans.
But I don't think you will ever understand this.

Truly yours.

Strange choice of category

[heffrey]

Can anyone explain why a Zune story is filed under Apple?

Re:Strange choice of category

[dkf]

Maybe you guys looked like you needed cheering up after having a bunch of articles dumping on the iPhone? (OK, perhaps it would have been better marked as a "Laugh, it's funny"...)

missing features for EU

[speculatrix]

does the FM radio in the Zune support (radio data system) RDS properly which is pretty much the defacto standard, giving you station name, type, details, time code etc?

Even better, could Microsoft please put in a (digital audio broadcasting) DAB radio module and allow you to record digital radio (like the Pure PocketDAB2000, of which I have one, whose only downside is that it takes SD cards for mass storage with a maximum size of 2GB). Noone's sued Pure, unlike the makers of XM radios in the USA, so it's now accepted as a perfectly reasonable thing to do?

Shame the linux-on-zune announcement seems to have been a hoax, the zune hardware is quite sweet, if a tad bulky.

Re:missing features for EU

[ivan256]

Even better, could Microsoft please put in a (digital audio broadcasting) DAB radio module and allow you to record digital radio

That seems unlikely. As far as I'm aware, the DAB specification is covered by patent (yet is the only FCC approved format in the US), and a license for the patent is well over $100 per device. Microsoft already loses money on the Zune hardware...

Re:missing features for EU

[speculatrix]

a license for the patent is well over $100 per device. Microsoft already loses money on the Zune hardware...

shame about the DAB feature... not such a shame about losing money on zune device, almost makes me want to buy one :-)

Marketing Data is HUGELY incomplete

[jeeves99]

The 10.2% number came from a marketing research firm named NPD. This firm doesn't have access to the sales records from all sources. This includes Apple online and retail stores, Amazon.com, and Wal-Mart (Sam's Club).

So that number is HUGELY vague because those are really big retailers for the iPod and other MP3 players.

M$ Just Pooped on them All

[twitter]

According to CNET, there's a bunch of entries in the 30GB category.

But how many people who don't buy an iPod are going to spend more than $200 on something that M$ just crapped on? Their entry into the market by screwing every one who bought into "Plays for Sure" Digital Restrictions, has sent a clear signal to everyone. It's too bad all of those makers played the pawn for M$ and agreed not to support OGG for the M$ approval. Can't sell to Linux heads, Mac people or Windoze Slaves, they now have zero market.

Just the same, it's hard to believe that Zune got 10% of the market, unless they include a bunch of boxes that will sit on shelves. Zune is going to repeat the Dell Jukebox story. No one is going to buy them despite promotion that includes giving them away until they withdraw from the market with their tail between their legs.

I'd like to see the makers take their revenge and offer free software friendly players. It's not like M$ can treat them any worse.

All you can eat did not work before.

[twitter]

The killer feature, to me, is the unlimited download subscription service. I've been having a lot of fun with that.

That's about the only positive thing anyone ever says about any M$ player. The problem is that most of them don't want it enough to pay for it and hate the software so much that they don't use it even when they have been forced to pay for it by their school. I'm glad you are happy with it, but you would have been happier with just about any other player when you realize how bad the battery life is.

How to advocate free software

[Anonymous Coward]

twitter, please read this carefully. Following this advice will make Slashdot a better place for everyone, including yourself.

• As a representative of the Linux community, participate in mailing list and newsgroup discussions in a professional manner. Refrain from name-calling and use of vulgar language. Consider yourself a member of a virtual corporation with Mr. Torvalds as your Chief Executive Officer. Your words will either enhance or degrade the image the reader has of the Linux community.
• Avoid hyperbole and unsubstantiated claims at all costs. It's unprofessional and will result in unproductive discussions.
• A thoughtful, well-reasoned response to a posting will not only provide insight for your readers, but will also increase their respect for your knowledge and abilities.
• Always remember that if you insult or are disrespectful to someone, their negative experience may be shared with many others. If you do offend someone, please try to make amends.
• Focus on what Linux has to offer. There is no need to bash the competition. Linux is a good, solid product that stands on its own.
• Respect the use of other operating systems. While Linux is a wonderful platform, it does not meet everyone's needs.
• Refer to another product by its proper name. There's nothing to be gained by attempting to ridicule a company or its products by using "creative spelling". If we expect respect for Linux, we must respect other products.
• Give credit where credit is due. Linux is just the kernel. Without the efforts of people involved with the GNU project , MIT, Berkeley and others too numerous to mention, the Linux kernel would not be very useful to most people.
• Don't insist that Linux is the only answer for a particular application. Just as the Linux community cherishes the freedom that Linux provides them, Linux only solutions would deprive others of their freedom.
• There will be cases where Linux is not the answer. Be the first to recognize this and offer another solution.

From http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/docs/HOWTO/Advoca cy

How to advocate free software

[Anonymous Coward]

twitter, please read this carefully. Following this advice will make Slashdot a better place for everyone, including yourself.

• As a representative of the Linux community, participate in mailing list and newsgroup discussions in a professional manner. Refrain from name-calling and use of vulgar language. Consider yourself a member of a virtual corporation with Mr. Torvalds as your Chief Executive Officer. Your words will either enhance or degrade the image the reader has of the Linux community.
• Avoid hyperbole and unsubstantiated claims at all costs. It's unprofessional and will result in unproductive discussions.
• A thoughtful, well-reasoned response to a posting will not only provide insight for your readers, but will also increase their respect for your knowledge and abilities.
• Always remember that if you insult or are disrespectful to someone, their negative experience may be shared with many others. If you do offend someone, please try to make amends.
• Focus on what Linux has to offer. There is no need to bash the competition. Linux is a good, solid product that stands on its own.
• Respect the use of other operating systems. While Linux is a wonderful platform, it does not meet everyone's needs.
• Refer to another product by its proper name. There's nothing to be gained by attempting to ridicule a company or its products by using "creative spelling". If we expect respect for Linux, we must respect other products.
• Give credit where credit is due. Linux is just the kernel. Without the efforts of people involved with the GNU project , MIT, Berkeley and others too numerous to mention, the Linux kernel would not be very useful to most people.
• Don't insist that Linux is the only answer for a particular application. Just as the Linux community cherishes the freedom that Linux provides them, Linux only solutions would deprive others of their freedom.
• There will be cases where Linux is not the answer. Be the first to recognize this and offer another solution.

From http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/docs/HOWTO/Advoca cy

Just bought a Zune

[CaptainTux]

For the past year and a half, I've been straggling along with my tiny Sony Network Walkman 1GB MP3 player and have, for the most part, been pretty satisfied. But, be it due to greed, lust, my desire to keep up with the Jones', whatever, I finally decided that I simply could not live another day without a big, study device that could also play video.

So over the past two months I've played with both the Apple iPod Video and the Microsoft Zune and was very impressed with both of them. Both had good sound, were easy to use, and came with more than enough storage for my needs. In the end, I chose the Zune over the iPod and am very happy with my decision.

I love the Zune's interface. It's easy to use, has a pretty good FM radio, and has great audio and video playback. What really made the decision for me was the fact that the Zune has wireless built right into the device and has a good speed processor. This really opens up the device to all sorts of future possibilities, even if they don't come from Microsoft.

Now, though I love my Zune, I can't honestly say there weren't some frustrations or things I'd like to see that simply aren't:

1: I'd like to see the Zune open to wireless Internet. Let me find a hot spot, connect to the marketplace and purchase and download music/video directly to my device. I'd also love the ability to stream content directly from the net to my device.

2: Bluetooth support. I'd love the opportunity to be able to get content to my device via a quick, easy Bluetooth connection to my PC. Sometimes, I don't want to have to find the USB cable and go through all the problems of plugging it in and doing a sync.

3: Record from FM or external mic. Wouldn't it be fantastic to be at a lecture and simply use your Zune to record everything? 30GB is more than enough to accommodate whole semesters of classes, multiple hours of lectures, and all sorts of other audio. And it's be very cool to be able to grab content directly off of FM even though the quality would suck.

4: More accessories! Of course, this problem might be fixed once it's been out a while.

All-in-all, my Zune experience has been positive. The only problem I've run into was with installing the software. My WinXP wasn't fully patched so the software refused to install. I had to spend 3 hours searching the Internet for a solution (which in the end was NOT provided by the ZUNE.NET site) before I could even install my player. Additionally, I didn't like how the software searched my computer and automatically imported all of my media to the device without asking forcing me to have to go through deleted what I didn't want.

Would I recommend the Zune to a friend over iPod? Yes. I think this is one product that Microsoft has done very right and, while I don't like the DRM on the device, I've been told it's less restrictive than the iPod's.

The Zune has possibilities IMHO and I'm willing to give it the try it deserves. I can't imagine anything but loving it but I suppose we shall see.

techie74354@yahoo.com

Re:Just bought a Zune

[Anonymous Coward]

And did you really buy it or did it just drop right out of Billy Boys ass whilst you were down there licking enthusiastically away ?

PS2 outsells XBox360

[Anonymous Coward]

"People laughed at the xbox, and said how will they beat Sony and its PS2? The xbox360 is now wiping the floor with the PS3."

Erm, you do realize that the PS2 outsold the XBox360 by 1.5:1 this Christmas, and XBox360 has only overtaken it 1 month during it's entire run (last May when they had a supply backlog for the previous month). PS3 has supply problems, lets see what it does when the supply problems are fixed.

Re:PS2 outsells XBox360

[speculatrix]

I didn't realise the PS2 was still such a big seller... but even so, I didn't mention the PS2. If Sony had got it right, the PS2 sales would be in the minority, and the PS3 would be killing the xbox360. Personally, I am happy with my original xbox, chipped, with (and this discussion reminded me to update it) the latest xbox media centre. Until the whole hd-dvd and blubetamaxray chaos settles down, along with the hdmi/hdcp crap, I'm not upgrading anything!

Re:PS2 outsells XBox360

[Anonymous Coward]

"I didn't realise the PS2 was still such a big seller... but even so,"

True but you compared XBox360 to ps3, to illustrate XBox360 eventual success, yet it didn't even beat the PS2 and at 10 million units when it was the only 3rd generation console, it's not likely it will get the 100 million plus units the PS2 has achieved.

In my view, the XBox360 is another also ran, it's not the most powerful, it's not the cheapest, it's just somewhere in the middle. XBox ended up with around 20 million odd units just ahead of the gamecube, with Sony passing the 100 million mark. This time I expect Wii to take the crown, with PS3 a strong second and XBox360 third place.

Catch up?

[UED]

They're not trying to play catch-up at the moment

They can't catch up, even if they wanted to! They were never ahead in the first place so that they could lag behind and "Catch up"!

An Opinion about Zune (video)

[Futurepower(R)]

"Europeans will be excitedly squirting all over the place!" Not if they watch this video first: An Opinion about Zune.

CNN ridicules Micosoft Zune (video)

[Futurepower(R)]

And not if they see CNN's opinion: CNN ridicules Micosoft Zune.

eu isnt europe

[BaronGanut]

eu is not europe, eu is in europe. blurp blurp

I like my Zune.. but..

[Morbidsoul]

I like my Zune. However I mainly bought it for its potential. Not its current state of being. Im really hoping that some 3rd party hackers will actually make this thing useful. Since buying my Zune ive yet to see a single other person in the "social" with its wireless capability. Ive sat in malls, hotels, restaurants, high rise buildings. My next attempt will be at a Microsoft event here next month. If I still dont see any other zune's, ill just turn the wireless thing off forever and give up that ill ever see another Zune.

Re:I like my Zune.. but..

[aristotle-dude]

If you bought it for what you were hoping hackers were going to do with it, I feel you made a grave mistake. Did you not consider an iPod because you hate all things Apple? Were you trying to be anti-establishment by buying something that was not popular?

Making Europe Suffer Too :P

[SteveO6385]

I see this going over as well as the overwhelming success of EuroDisney. And while we're at it, let's put the subscription price in dollars rather than euros/pounds, then lead a crusade into their homes as apart of our "War on Metric". That'll get them on our good side. Silly Americans, we'll never learn

Cringley agrees with you.

[beetle496]

From November:

In other news, Microsoft's Zune is out and, as predicted, hardly anyone is taking it as a serious threat to Apple. But if it isn't a threat to Apple, then why do we keep writing about it? To a certain extent we do so because anything from Microsoft gets a lot of press, but some pundits are convinced there is another shoe to drop -- some deal or feature with which Microsoft will turn this sow's ear into a silk purse. I don't see this as likely for the first Zune version. Apple has established a 6-9 month iPod product cycle. If Microsoft hopes to continue the trend of doing the job right the third time around, then the clock is ticking toward that time, which will be 12-18 months from now. THIS Zune is a placeholder meant to start the clock ticking at best. Two Zunes from now is when the game really begins.

Hard to catch-up with Apple.

[jibrael]

The Zune player has to go under some major changes to get along with Apples iPod and to have a stable market all over the world. Can't Microsoft get something new of its own concept or will it just keep copying ideas?