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Zune Sales Continue to Weaken
Dak RIT writes "Market share data for the first month of Microsoft's Zune sales is now available, and appears to confirm that after the initial hype, sales have fallen off dramatically. Microsoft came in fourth for sales during the month of November with only 1.9% of the market. Apple remained unchanged at 62.2%, and SanDisk even managed to increase to 18.4% (looks like the Zune might not even be able to compete with the rest of the market, let alone the iPod). The one surprise though is that the brown Zune is apparently not only being bought, but more popular than the white model."
I'm just holding out for the yellow model...
This guy's the limit!
Despite previous posts, I have actually thought about buying a Zune, the interface does not look too bad, and it seems much more customizable.
So here is a question, what does an IPOD have (other than after market accessories) that the Zune does not?
As a basic, out the gate thing, what does the Zune have that the IPOD does not? (other than squirting).
If you don't vote, you don't matter, so don't waste your time telling me your opinion
The zune is a particularly clear exmaple of this.
However i suspect the ipod has simply hit that monopoly status like Windows in which even if the competitors were good (or better) their chances of making inroads against the market leader are severly limited.
i personaly think the ipod is best of breed, but even still one has to wonder.
--Idiots, Every single one of YOU, A flaming mass of conglomerated morons, hey wait a second, isnt that how RAID works?
Why is it that companies feel they need to conquer every aspect of every market? MS should have left portable music alone.
(Cue the naive laissez-faire capitalists who think that this competition will create magic in the music industry)
Of the iPod seems to be that of the PS2 in the last gen of games. Zune needs to be able to play Halo on it for it to be a huge success.
The newegg.com reviews seem to speak for themselves: while not perfect, this product is superior to the iPod, both aesthetically and functionally.
I (and others) looking for proper use of wifi, have already bought an Archos (604Wifi). Opera browser, network share browsing, etc. Squirting? Please. It's more expensive, but a far superior product at this point.
The Zune is out on display in best buy stores. It has one stand. The video it is showing is grainy and because of the strip lights its hard to see.
Compare and contrast with the iPod Nano - there is only one nano display, but there are about a million Nano's out for people to play with because they are being used as part of demo sets for speakers, headphones, in car entertainment systems, kids toys. There are just a lot more units for people to get their hands on and try out - at this point. I imagine things will be a little bit different when Best Buy has a whole aisle for nothing but Zune protective cases, like the do for iPods right now.
Beep beep.
Proof indeed that people are dim. Bless their little hearts!
What else could you give as a gag at all these White Elephant office parties?
Footer Ads.
I bought a Zune to use as a big screen TV. I had to make my own wall mount, but it was worth it. I measured the screen and it is nearly the same size as 42" monitors going for several thousand dollars.
In all seriousness, I was a bit perked by the Zune until I saw how big it actually was. I'm certainly no Microsoft fan boy, but what the heck were they thinking?
More
"Bill gates' wallet" green? BSOD blue? "Beige box" beige? That would be great! Of course, queue the brown ~ crap jokes...
stuff |
First generation was rather expensive back in 2001. But sales really took off after iTunes and the music store. On the other hand, there wasn't as much hype about it back then either.
I'll be more interested to see how the Zune does after a period of say, six months to a fiscal year. I can't say I'd be surprised one way or the other, but IMHO a month or two of sales data isn't enough for me to see whether a product is effective or not. How does this compare to Ipod's sales its first month?
Quiz: True or False -- On a scale of 1 to 10, what is your middle name?
You have to wonder what these numbers are really showing. It reads like it's compared to all sizes of mp3 players, from little 256mb flash drives to the 80GB iPod video. I would like to see how it compares to comparable players, instead of overall. Still these numbers are surprising, it's a medium sized player at a good price with a lot of marketing behind it.
...well, let's just hope they never drop them into the pool.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, write technology blogs.
It is all in the Microsoft plan to dominate! They are making you think that it isn't selling. Those evil marketing geniuses!!
20 years and it'll be a collectors item.
Deleted
About the brown thing? It's the only unique thing about the player (that is worthwhile). Incidentally, for what its worth, the sales folks at the local Radio Shack (Upper West Side, Manhattan) have told me that the Zune is flying off their shelves. When I told them that I was shocked... they admitted that they were too.
Leben Sie jetzt die Fragen.
MS always had a long term strategy. Just wait until it gets better.
See Internet Explorer. Now v7. First versions were bad.
See DirectX. From v0 (WinG) to v10. First versions were bad.
Wait for Zune 2, 3, 4... Today, it sucks, but in a few years, it will be OK.
-- Rastignac was here.
The title of the article is "Zune doesn't shake iPod's market lead - MICROSOFT MP3 PLAYER HAS DECENT 1ST MONTH". That's a far cry from "Zune Sales Continue to Weaken".
Hell, the article summary isn't even correct. Slashdot spin version: "Apple remained unchanged at 62.2%". Actual article text: "Apple's share of the hard drive market fell to 82.7 percent from 86.8 percent a year ago, its share of the overall market came in at 62.2 percent, essentially even with the 63 percent it posted a year ago."
Instead of trying to spin existing articles, I personally think that it's time for Slashdot editors to just start making shit up. This attempt at spin is pretty sad. Why not just make up an article that says, "Bill Gates went on a shooting spree today, killing 100 orphan children, before turning the weapon on himself".
Or any digital music player... They're so last year.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
MS has never expressed an interest in "conquering" the MP3 market.
From the article:
Microsoft expressed little concern about the sales. Jason Reindorp, director of product marketing for Zune, said, ``We are happy with the position Zune currently holds in the market, and are on track to meet our sales projection of 1 million units by end of the fiscal year.''
Heck, you could say the same thing about Apple.
maybe? ;)
Did anyone think the Zune would succeed?
Oh yeah, the Archos has PVR functionality, an optional helmet camera (for the serious nerd), and a screen the size of my frikkin' home TV. I'm not sure if the screen size is good or bad ... it's quite nice to watch video on, but makes it a bit large for a portable device. Supposedly it runs Limux as well, but I haven't seen any available apps.
Doesn't this prove that "if you make it, someone will buy it?"
I always thought that was more than a little suspect, but the fact that *anyone* bought a Zune makes me reconsider.
Insisting on "correct" English is like saying that there is only one, definitive recipe for chili.
All the software and OS hackers are buying the brown Zunes so they can hack Ubuntu Linux onto it. If they succeed they will call them "Ubunes". :)
Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
Zune is not going to catch the iPod anytime soon, and Microsoft knows this. Indeed, they probably aren't that concerned right now about the sales as much in how the machine fairs in the wild and what bugs may crop up with the first batch. Once they've got the initial hiccups smoothed out and the initial market reception data is in, if they are serious about grabbing real market share, they should drop the price.
A Zune next to an iPod for the same price, equals iPod for teh win! Drop the Zune price say 15-20%, then people start thinking about it a bit more. They can talk about more features and sharing all they want to, but right now that's not going to move people to Zune. If they can make it as easy to use as the iPod, attractive, and less expensive, then they've got a shot.
Heck, if they want to get really crazy, just bundle 20% Zune discount coupons with every new Windows Vista PC sold.
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
Despite previous posts, I have actually thought about buying a Zune, the interface does not look too bad, and it seems much more customizable.
If by "being more customizable" you mean changing the background image in your menu - yes, it's more customizable.
If by "being more customizable" you meant tailoring the interface to suit what things you do most often, like putting the artists folder on the top level menu or something along those lines, then the iPod is more customizable.
If you meant using the iPod to either look at calendars or contacts or play simple games, then the iPod is more customizable.
In short the Zune is more customizable if all you care for is superficial change. Well, not stricty true I suppose since you can bling up the outside of your iPod with a case...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
These results were accurately predicted on this very site, much to the chagrin of Microsoft fanboys.
Hmmm, seems as if the color is a very apt indicator of the quality of the Zune. Seems that M$ jinxed itself by making the thing look like a turd.
"I imagine things will be a little bit different when Best Buy has a whole aisle for nothing but Zune protective cases, like the do for iPods right now."
You say that like it was ever going to happen. The aisle of accessories follows the market share, not the other way around. The wide availability of acessories helps keep the leader in place perhaps; but nobody will make, and best buy wouldn't stock, a ton of accessories for a player that isn't already owned by a ton of customers.
My prediction: the Zune ceases production within the year.
Just like happens with 99% of consumer products that have glitzy launches?
Seriously this is a piece of non-news turned into Microsoft bashing.
It's a pitty about the sales - I've had both iPod and Zune, and I like the Zune far better. The interface is much smoother, and the device as a whole is fun to use. The potential is rather enormous, so don't discount this machine yet. Let alone the fact that a whole line of Zune products will take to the air at some point or another. Let's wait and see. I for one am a satisified Zune user.
The grocery/department store where we shop has a *huge* sort of cardboard cutout ad for the Zune right at the entrance. Maybe at every entrance.
... just weird. "Buy Zune; get girls with huge pores who don't use makeup!" I mean, come on, *nobody* looks good with that level of closeup ...
It consists of a (probably teenaged) girl's face. In massive closeup. With a sort of "natural", unretouched look. And just like, her face with a little bit of her hair. Like somebody hit the wrong zoom level somewhere. Five or ten times the size of a human face.
The effect is
However i suspect the iPod has simply hit that monopoly status like Windows
Really - what is the limitation to switching from an iPod?
Sure some people have songs from iTunes, but for most music people are still buying CD's. The amount of ITMS songs people own is not enough to explain why people continue to buy iPods instead of other players.
With Windows if I want to buy almost any PC but a Mac, by default I get Windows. If I want to use programs needed for work I have to use Windows, if I want to access my freaking intranet website I need Windows (or at least IE)!
THAT is monopoly.
If I wanted to, I could easily buy a different MP3 player and things would work just fine - if it played AAC, all the better (wince that's what I rip CD's to). But I stick with the iPod because it does what it does better than other players I have tried - including the Zune. The iPod has a most not of monopoly, but of ease of use - in order to start making inroads on the iPod it must be easier, or at least AS EASY to use as an iPod - and if you read Zune reviews that software does not make it the case. The Sansa on the other hand is rather simple to use and doesn't try to make the users life more complicated, which is why people are buying them.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I was all anti-Xbox when that thing first came out. In my eyes it was so much worse than the GCN that I couldn't understand purchasing one. PS2 sale numbers owned it hard, and were I a Sony guy I would have been talking the same talk as Apple folks are today. And now the Xbox family is doing just fine, all things considered. Maybe MS will actually turn a profit on those things within the next couple of years. After all, they do know something about running a competitive business, and with consoles they have the experience of trying to break into a market with an already-dominant product out there. Maybe soon enough the Zune will be where the 360 is. And as MS releases new "versions" like the Zune Micro or whatever they feel like calling it, they'll get more competitive. I'm a Creative guy right now anyway. My next player will likely be an Archos. But the Zune/iPod war has only begun if you ask me.
I like basketball!!1!
I use Ubuntu's default theme, you insensitive clod!
If Zune sales are falling off now, right before Xmas, few really want it. If sales were down after the Xmas rush it would have less to do with the product's appeal. Or am I stating the obvious?
Hm. I think many fashion people would brown Zune just for sake of its color - brown. Many leather and fur goods are of that color. And nobody did the color before - Apple likes traditional colors, Creative likes colors of Apple, etc.
Now that I think of it, probably it's Mrs Gates has ordered for xmas brown player for her sable fur coat. And husband complied.
All hope abandon ye who enter here.
I agree the displays are not good - I spent some time with one at a target.
First of all, the Borwn Zune (there were two, black and white) was either locked up or had a fake screen. I couldn't tell, but the impression a user would have is that it had crashed.
The black one worked, and I was able to try using it (though the speakers connected didn't work or were not on). A real problem the Zune has with a fixed kiosk is that browsing between pictures and video and songs, the whole interface rotates - that is to say, Zune changes the display such that you need to hold the Zune on it's side for some photos and video. When the device is fixed upright you cannot and it makes it really hard to use - plus the controls are also rotated (up becomes left, right becomes down) which you have to figure out. Personally I really did not like this control rotation and found it made it hard to figure out what you were supposed to do in any given mode.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
While you may think the color brown is unhip, you must understand that from a designer's and marketer's POV brown has been a 'HOT' color for at least the last year.
Now my background in color makes me recognize when color-trends take over. All you need to do is get out of your house/apartment/basements and go to a trendy store like Target, Crate and Barrel... etc. Casually look at accessories for your hip and swingin' pad and you will notice that a very dark blueish-brown color paired with either a cream-color, minty green or a greenish-blue (think a pale cyan here) with nickel plated hardware (brass is out) are all the rage.
Now you may not think brown in any form is hip, but since you are a small speck in the marketplace for items without IDE/SATA/USB/Fibre and/or RJ-45 connectors as standard equipment, you may not realize this trend.
I know it's fun to make fun of MS anything but I just thought I'd mention all this because no Zune article can be posted without poking fun at the "brown one" either purposely or subconsciously.Yes, in my mind even I associate the color brown with shit, and while the Zune might be a POS on many levels, the brown one does not reinforce that fact. What tells me it's a POS is that MS only casually wants you to know the Zune is an MS product, that with the fact the wireless is crippled AND 'Plays4Sure' is unsupported.
God: When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
Perhaps UPS is buying them in bulk.
I bought the 1st gen - yes it was expensive but I had enough of players with USB connections, firewire was way faster - so I bought it as a music player but also a portable hard drive. There was nothing like it on the market, as far as ease of use and features went.
It's funny that five years later, Microsoft introduces a player that can't even be used as a hard drive...
Sales really took off for the iPod when they introduced the Windows compatible model. The funny thing is, today Microsoft started with Windows compatibility - perhaps sales will really take off when they introduce software that lets the Zune work with Macs!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The issue with DRM restrictions is on file formats, software that creates files in that format, and music stores. Not the player. If your Creative Zen plays encumbered WMA or AAC files, it is no more or less DRM-encumbered than any other device that plays encumbered WMA or AAC files.
A player that is untouched by DRM is a player that will not play any DRM-encumbered formats. To the best of my knowledge, there is not a single hard drive based player on the market that fits this category.
I agree, I just bought a SAMSUNG YP-Z5 4 GB digital player and I think this is THE ONE I would recommend to everyone. It has the ability to be used with Windoze Media Player but the music is copied in comprehensable folders in the flash memory.
I can also copy the music folders directly using any Linux file manager (or plain old cp). It can handle some kind of DRM thing (which I dont use as I dont like leasing crippled products) and the best thing is that it plays MP3, WMV and OGG. It is the size of an Ipod nano and has a color screen, the battery lasts more han 30 hours (continuous playing, I usually just use the shuffle all function and never stop the thing, just put down the headphones).
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
I'll tell you what. I'm not really going to be interested in any electronic device which advertises "squirting" or "helmet camera" in the list of features. But, hey, I'm a traditionalist. You just go strap on that helmet camera and squirt all you want, just don't do it near me.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Now for an alternate perspective... http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36 443
I would totally buy a brown iPod (read:not-a-Zune-though). Never underestimate the power of retro -- the more it looks like wood, the more luddites like me like it.
Now there's a thought...an analog pocketable wooden mini-record-player. iVinyl!
This should surprise no one. It was all the MS fanboys who rushed out on day one to by Daddy Gates' brown Zune. Its like the Apple- Steve dynamic. I just never got the Zune and its media inflation. Wow a rebranded Gigabeat with one poorly implemented tacked on feature (Wifi) and a closed system modeled after Apple. All this for the price of the already established market leader? Sign me up!
If you're going to get an MP3 Player, how about something that actually looks cool to begin with http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prod id=MP-002-MB
tiny small form factor (smaller than the nano, although it is a cube)
has FM Radio and can be used as a USB memory stick, OLED display
there's even a 2nd generation device coming out that can play videos as well (although why would anyone want to)
For some reason, I really think the brown one looks like an (American) football. I really don't know why, but it just seems like something you'd want to throw, spike, tackle and so on.
If it's not one thing it's your mother.
Zune is losing money ? struggling since it release?
... (codename zune 270) which will feature, amongst other things, a fulyl digital and skinnable interface to fit american "big-thumbs" customers and asian "children pinky" fingers!
Fear not! next year, microsoft will release zune 2007
though, despite all the technological improvement, much of the zune 270's success relies on Apple's failure to deliver its iPod HyperNano on time and with matching techno breakthrus.
during that time, SanDisk has been known to be working on a revolutional mp3 player allowing its user to control his playlist with his sight using goggles for UI. Alpha test reports lots damaged lamp posts and broken noses.
If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel. - Will Kommen
The Zune is a turd.
http://www.microsoftshitbrick.com/
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
People get shot for their iPods. You couldn't pay a mugger to steal your f*cking Zune. It's funny how M$ always tries to copy Apple but fails miserably.
The part that grieves me over the whole Zune episode is how many mainstream tech rags reviewed it positively because if its -potential-. Firmware upgrades, millions joining Teh Social, future upgrades to the Zune PC media player. Meanwhile comments above mention that it's only version 1.0, and Microsoft products get pretty competent around 5.0 or 6.0--Just wait! This is what money-flush gorilla developers can do: publish crap, scare away the competition, and by the time they've sunk billions in development and marketing, they've taken the best features from their competitors and scared up enough space in the market to begin dominating properly -- and the billions flow back in.
It's worked great so far. Microsoft probably doesn't strategize this way, in bad faith. This is just a symptom of a company in the "latter days" of its history. I'vejust described the absolute laziest engineering cycle possible. The most expensive, the slowest, and the most inevitable.
Microsoft the company as we know it is dead. It may reinvent itself and become a different and successful company, but it is dying, like BSD.
That's how Dick Tracy listens to music. The three speed wrist phonograph.
I think it has a lot to do with the marketing. Not a day goes by that I don't see an ad for the iPod in some form (print, tv, billboard), but I don't think I have seen an ad for the Zune yet. Sure there's lots of talk about it on websites, but there's nobody pushing the message in your face to buy a Zune. You can look around and find out how cool the Zune is, but for mass adoption, you have to have commercials telling people how cool it is. You can't just make a product and expect it to sell without advertising it.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Not necessarily. Stores are also a business, and if the minority product's vendor can subsidize its losses in one division with excessive profits in another, the store might be persueded to add extra emphesis to a non-leading product that its vendor hopes will one day become one.
So basically what you are saying is that microsoft could leverage their existing os and office monopolies to create favourable deals for promoting the zune and gaining marketshare in the portable player market. I wonder if the U.S. legal system will work this time around, or if we'll have to rely on the EU courts again.
Darth --
Nil Mortifi, Sine Lucre
The software is a pain, especially if you are running Media Center 2005, a long with there customer support. It took me 3 days to load it on my laptop and to this day it will not load on my desktop and support has no answer, but saying it should work. I talked with them for like 3 hours. The music sync. is a pain, it would be much easier to add and remove music if it showed up as a flash drive while it is synced. Its a nice player, but the software makes it not worth owning.
About5 hours video, and 15 music is what's advertised. A couple of reviews say it's roughly accurate, but I can't fully vouch for thatyet. I've done abut 4 hours video with no problem. Apparently the WiFi functionality eats battery, but that hasn't seemed too bad so far.
Let's see. It's larger, heavier, has shorter battery life, is less attractive, has a clumsier interface (no scroll wheel and a less user-friendly menu system), doesn't support podcasts, has a lower storage capacity than the top of the line iPod, almost nonexistant 3rd party peripheral support, doesn't support Audible.com audiobooks, has poorer audio fidelity, only supports the laughable Zune Marketplace for purchasing music online (no podcasts, TV shows, movies, or games), can't be used on a Mac, and doesn't even support Microsoft's own previous DRM schemes.
.mp3 player. Well, for some definition of "fine", anyway.
Additionally the display, while larger, is the same resolution. The software it comes with has quickly developed a reputation for bugginess. Its one potentially cool feature (wireless) is utterly crippled by its implementation, with ridiculous DRM, no way to purchase music wirelessly, and not even the ability to sync with your computer wirelessly.
Finally, while I realize that this is probably a non-issue for most of the Slashdot crowd, the fact remains that the iPod is simply considered cooler within the cultural zeitgeist.
Other than that you're right- the Zune is a fine
Out of curiosity, does anyone out there know if music purchased in the Zune Marketplace can be shared with multiple computers? Purchases from iTMS can be authorized for up to 5 computers. I haven't heard one way or the other how this works for the Zune.
Boundless Expansion, Self-Transformation, Dynamic Optimism, Intelligent Technology, Spontaneous Order- BEST DO IT SO!
Form and function are all well and good and can be assessed right away. However, except for the early adopters, savvy people really should wait until at least 6 months from now, to make sure that those early Zunes don't just disintigrate. Maybe that's happening here? It was a problem with some of the Creative models (sound board) and of course the iPod screens aren't exactly titanium.
There is such a long list of why the Zune has a marketability problem in the mainstream consumer market.
#1. Wierd name: No really. Zune is wierd. iPod is wierd too but it has the advantage of approaching generic status. Even saying Zune feels funny. I would say it actually makes it hard for salespeople to talk about it.
#2. Accessories. Everything that is an mp3 accessory says 'iPod compatible'. A store is going to always try to bundle stuff, or otherwise get the secondary sale. They are going to try to sell some speakers, a dock, a case, a transmitter, and any number of things. None of these products say 'Zune' even if they aren't specifically iPod.
#3. One Tier vs Many Tier. If you want to buy someone an iPod, you can get a shuffle all the way to the 60 gig video. In between you have a range of Nano, and lower end Video. So as far as a store is concerned, any person coming in might be talked up a level, or 'Is there a smaller one?' It's true that a salesperson pushing a Zune could go to a Sansa or whatnot, but do you really see them Stepping their customer down away from the iPod premium brand which they have heavy stock in, to point to the competitors.
#4. Families that Pod together stay together: If you have iPod's in the house and all your music is in iTunes, then the Zune means a seperate store of files. Even if you are a CD ripping bunch, thats annoying at best. The Music store customers are even more locked in. And stores also know this. They are not going to push a product down a customers throat that is going to make them the blacksheep of the household.:) ALl that will do is give a 'Hey i need to trade in my 249 dollar zune for a 249 ipod, because this thing doesn't work with my stuff at home.'
#5. Not enough tie in to other Microsoft products. If you were offering a free mouse, or a Zune/Xbox bundle, I assure you there would be a stronger sales model. For a company legendary for leveraging market position, Microsoft really put the Zune out on its own. They didn't even support their own music store or their builtin software on their OS. If Zune worked BETTER than any other mp3 player in Windows (wifi syncing? easier music list generation? better support of podcasts?) then they might be able to muscle in. Even if it took Vista to make it all happen. Heck, Microsoft is going to essentially be supporting USB drives as extended memory, but the Zune doesn't seem to be built to be supported for THAT! Can you imagine how easy it would be to sell this if it included a small dictation feature or the capability to work with word documents in some new way? Tie in. Lock in. Businessmen buy the Zune with the excuse that they need it for work. Nope.
I'm waiting for someone to come out with one with wood veneer, like the old woody station wagons. "My MP3 player was hand carved!"
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
"Wierd name"
One word, "Wii"
"If you have iPod's in the house and all your music is in iTunes"
This is why I bought a Sansa. I really don't want to be locked into a format.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
if Rockbox ever gets ported to it. The screen is nice, and the player itself has a nice, clean layout. But at the moment, Zune doesn't have gapless playback. Even the fracking iPod has that these days!
I know the web site and the whole DRM is evil thing, but as a hardware device (and this goes for iPods too) it plays non-DRMed files just fine. So what is the problem? What is the defective design. If you don't like DRM don't use it*. Simple, no? What am I missing? If the hardware only played DRM files, then yes, that is defective by design. Optional DRM file formats do not a defective device make.
Technically Windows and OS X would be defective by design. Hell even your ears are defective by design since they could, in theory, hear a DRM audio file.
*Excluding the wireless sharing limitations- I fully understand what a crap-fest that has turned out to be.
From the Slashdot "story":
"the brown Zune is apparently not only being bought, but more popular than the white model.
From the actual article:
"The company is offering a dull brown version of the Zune in part to stand out from the competition and because it got favorable reviews in its pre-market research. But according to NPD, the brown Zune accounts for just 19 percent of all the Zunes sold, about the same amount as the white model. The black model accounts for about 63 percent of all sold."
But I guess it just sounds "funnier" if Microsoft is selling "brown stuff", so who cares about, ya know, reality...?
How much is Microsoft paying you to post?
This is exactly what I've been searching for! Thank you! Thank you!!!
The first time I saw the brown Zune, I thought this looked like something that Wookies would have developed.
>> The brown one looks like a turd.
;-)
> Hm. I think many fashion people would brown Zune just for sake of its color - brown. Many leather and fur goods are of that color. And nobody did the color before [...]
Actually, I remember seeing ads in print and on the web -- for at least several months now -- promoting a line of brown-colored MP3 players (including mobile phone / music player hybrid units):
http://www.i4u.com/article7383.html
The marketing tie-in is that the product line goes under the name "Chocolate". Hey, the candy color Angry Fruit Salad selection for iMacs worked, right?
"All hands, BRACE FOR IMPACT!"
More than half the reason I have an iPod is because iTunes is my music organization software of choice. Unless Zune syncs with iTunes, I won't buy it. Period.
This is not because of the iTunes store (which I've never bought from), but simply because it's the best (IMHO) music organization software around...*and* you can sync your iPod at the push of a button.
With the first link, the chain is forged.
Primetime commercials for the Zune are just starting to appear in the last few days. It seems that Microsoft is just starting to ramp up the marketing. Contrary to the opinion of many Slashdotters, television commercials will make a bigger difference in sales rather than any technical shortcominings or religious anti-DRM fervor.
The thing that I haven't yet been able to figure out is how or why Microsoft built a large, expensive launch campaign around the Zune's sharing ability ("welcome to the social") without running the numbers on product uptake and figuring out how infrequently early adopters would be actually be able to take advantage of "the social."
After thinking about that for a little while, and reading what's been said elsewhere on the Web, I wrote up a proposal for the Zunebox -- essentially a modified Zune that's dedicated to sharing, that MS could install in music stores, cafes, retail outlets selling the Zune, and so on. (The linked page has more info on my thinking, and is not an ad-supported site in case anybody is wondering...I've just got cheap hosting space, a domain registration habit, and an interest in seeing where this discussion goes. Plus I think that the graphic that I slapped together for the thezunebox.com splash page is actually pretty clever for something done in half an hour starting at 3AM.)
It's just astonishing to me that Microsoft didn't do something to give the first wave of Zune buyers the chance to use the damn file sharing ability without having to track down another Zune buyer.
* * *
It is a dada story -- it has no moral.
Begin, this tone war has.
Quick addendum to my last comment. I was checking to see how many computers Zune Marketplace purchases can be used on (just one, it would seem), and came across a deficiency in the Zune that's such an obvious oversight that I'd never even thought to check.
Apparently it can't be used as an external hard drive. Damn. I use my iPod as extra storage all the time. It's such a simple and useful bit of functionality that I'd assumed the Zune would have this capability. It turns out that it doesn't.
I've even used my iPod as a boot drive for troubleshooting Macs. I obviously wouldn't expect the Zune to be able to do this, but to not be usable for storing/transfering large files at all is absurd.
Boundless Expansion, Self-Transformation, Dynamic Optimism, Intelligent Technology, Spontaneous Order- BEST DO IT SO!
I would buy a zune if there was a rockbox port for it.
plays: ogg, flac, mp3...
I will grant that the iPod has a nicer interface and a nicer front software interface, but if you can copy files to a thumb drive you can move to a better player.
Sure, if the vendor gives them the choice of carrying both or neither. Of course, in many cases that could violate the law, particularly if the "leading" product was a monopoly product.
But without that kind of condition, they'll just sell the profitable product and not sell the space-wasting one, and make more money than if they looked at the lemon as "subsidized" by the star product just because they came from the same vendor.
That's why I firmly believe that the other manufacturers need to band together to create a standard external connector. The iPod was an attractive product, but it was never ground breaking. The problem is that at this point, accessory manufacturers make accessories for iPod because they have the biggest market share, and at least partially because all the accessories are for iPods, iPod will keep the biggest market share.
If the other manufacturers standardized an external connector, they could have enough of an accessory market share that they could compete.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Soviet+Brown+Zune.
I have a feeling you're not a Google user.
"This is why I bought a Sansa. I really don't want to be locked into a format."
Oh really? I guess you'll be sticking to ripping CDs then? No Rhapsody for you. In that case, you could have bought an iPod. It's not like you have to use the iTS to acquire music.
Given negative press about SANDisk, I'd bet we'll see word of mouth point people elsewhere. Apple will probably pick up most of them, but Zune could see it's marketshare increase as well:
+ Grinch/2010-1041_3-6139869.html
http://news.com.com/Why+its+hard+not+to+be+a+tech
I mean, the logo looks like a little cat butt...
You're totally missing what I'm saying. The store doesn't care about subsidization or not; all they care about is that Minority Vendor gave them a large enough wad of cash and/or other incentives to inflate Minority Vendor's product beyond the attention it would otherwise receive. Indeed, if enough incentive is given, it would undoubtedly add space to accomodate Minority Product even up to a whole isle like the grandparent said. Heck, if the money were good enough, they'd even reduce the size of Majority Product's display space (yes, it would take a lot of money). But if you're receiving what amounts to pure profit, most anything can happen if it's enough. Sure, they'd lose sales on Majority Product, but it'd be compensated by income from Minority Vendor. As long as it makes the sheet balance in the end, that's what counts.
The subsidization is merely what makes the situation sustainable. If another Minority Player were to try to buy the space, they would run out of money and fold. Luckily for them, a certain Minority Player has extremely deep pockets.
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
Probably based on 100 (all) - 63 (black) - 19 (brown) = 18 (white). 19 is greater than 18, therefore brown is outselling white. But this train of thought doesn't take rounding into account at all.
Aisle. Aisle. Can't believe I wrote that!
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
The iPod does a pretty good job of including everything I want and nothing I don't. If I had a wishlist I'd basically just want bluetooth so I could sync it with my laptop without having to break out the cable. Though I still have to break out the cable every few days anyway to charge it up. It'd also be nice for uploading MP3s as ring tones to my phone -- I've got an unlocked Nokia E70 that can use any mp3, wav or midi file as a ringtone so that'd be pretty sweet.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
For the FM radio diehards, Apple sells a nifty FM radio add on for the iPod. For the majority of people that don't care about FM radio, we're happy not to be forced to buy it and not to have to carry it.
Although intuitive in some aspects, I had to return the Zune after 1 day. I had issues loading certain media files (it could not convert them)so it just skipped them or crashed. I disliked the fact of having to use WMV/WMA for everything. It was a bit clunky overall, albeit it has the 3" screen so that is part of it. I was not wanting an iPod as it is a bit too common and still has the whole single format issue so I went with the Creative Labs Zen:M 30 gig. Best player I've owned to date and it supports nearly every video format I've thrown at it and the big 3 audio formats are supported without conversion. Good software and a good interface. Plus it was only $229 and has better/more functionality. Just an opinion, but, go with the Zen if your looking...
The first time, I read that as "And husband compiled."
Brown is nice as long as it's chocolate brown. But when it's turd brown covered in snot green, that's where I draw the line. :-)
Less restrictive DRM.
Isn't it about time you knocked off for the day shift.
was Re:Zune (Score:5, Zune-O-turfing)
davecb5620@gmail.com
I heard somewhere last week (NPR?) an interesting statistic on this. They said that the Zune was even being outsold by USB iPod chargers. Given that there's already a ton of iPods out there, it's a pretty telling statistic.
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
Seriously. If anyone other than Microsoft had produced this abomination, then it would already have disappeared from the market completely. The only thing that keeps it alive is this weird expectation that because it is a Microsoft product, it automatically has to destroy all the competition. And here on Slashdot, someone even tried to raise sympathies for this product by calling it "the underdog". Underdog? Microsoft and underdog? For f***s sake, what is wrong with some people's brains?
Take this player on its own merits, and you will see that except for one innovation (brown color) there is absolutely nothing exciting about it.
Q. What do I have to do to copy music to another player wirelessly?
A. Buy two Zunes, because you can be sure nobody else has one.
Why the zune would I be? 8^)
The IP cartels have forgotten how business works: sell people products that they want at a reasonable price, and people will purchase your product. Yes it is "unfair" that you are competing with "free" pirated competition, but sometimes, you draw a string of bad luck. Those of us in software development are competing against Indian and former Soviet states that might as well be free... Open Source development has expanded from infrastructure to more and more of the software market, and client don't understand the need to do custom work when the free stuff now "almost works as they want."
It's the nature of the market, it destroys people that are standing still. The problem for the IP cartels is that technology used to take decades to eat the market (VHS ate the re-released movie market, but created the home Video market, DVD ate VHS rental commissions, but created the home movie collection), now it takes years. However, if you move fast, you can make money.
Napster made it possible for large swaths of the public to become exposed to non Top 40 music, people traded MP3s around, and it was easy to get a file, but a pain to get a CD, so if you liked it, you bought the CD. Killing Napster opened the market to better P2P solutions. Apple created a pleasant way to buy digital music. The only constant is change.
If I were in charge of the music studios, I'd keep my legal teams on a short leash, harassing P2P enough to push people toward Apple and Microsoft solutions, but not enough to make my customers hate me. I'd use sites like Myspace.com to get my bands out there, and I would crank out new artists. I'd focus less on monetizing my archive with DRM, and sell whatever I can sell. I'd increasing touring, push SA-CD / DVD-A as a higher quality solution. Hit the market everywhere, some stuff will sell, some won't.
However, my biggest change would be my contracting of artists. The current solution, lose money on 9 bands but make a killing on 1, giving everyone giant advances to live like rock stars, playing the celebrity gossip game, etc., isn't working. The one-hit wonder who gets famous flashing the papparazzi is a dead strategy because P2P eats you, but bands with a following make you money. I'd lower advances, increase the artist cut, and get the artists to think like music creators, creating more CDs, and less time playing celebrity. When a band gets discovered, give them money to produce albums, not party it up. There are more music channels (XM, Sirius, HD Radio, etc.), most outlets for videos (Myspace.com, Youtube.com, Google Video, etc.), and more ways to introduce people to music.
Sure, piracy will eat some sales, but it will expose people to more music. Some people may never buy music, but others will if you make it easy. Get product out there, sell what you can, and keep the legal team on enough of an offensive to keep the pirates at bay... however, forget the idea that you can STOP piracy.
Also, STOP making the technology suck. HDMI has proved to be a colossal disaster, it doesn't work right. Havi over Firewire was the easier solution, multiple cables suck (component + firewire or optical audio), but the HDMI situation causes SOOOOO many problems. The technical hurdles affecting your high end customers are killing you. If you want to move discs, get people to WANT higher quality. SA-CD and DVD-A presented a way to make downloaded MP3s of questionable quality less valuable, but you never supported them, and required people to run 6 audio cables because you didn't want digital solutions to take off, WTF!
Stop screwing around, you're missing the fact that pirates attack your low-end, move up market, and just rattle the pirates a bit. You've lost site of your business, and became engrossed with piracy. Put out music people like, and sales will take off... even if the piracy rate hurts somewhat, you can move product. With a minor harassment game, high school and college kids may not buy CDs, but they will after school when they have money, if you have created bands that they love. The market is changes, adapt with it... but in the end, SELL product EVERYWHERE, stop navel gazing and running in fear.
"Her idea of wit is nothing more than an incisive observation humorously phrased and delivered with impeccable timing."
A number of people who (* cough mistake *) bought the Zune have complained that they can't find anyone to share music with.
In Seattle
In Coffeeshops
In Malls
Think about it, that's NOT a good thing to say.
Me, I think our DRM-obsessed overlords blew this one. Good tech, lousy software/DRM.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Somebody should re-sell hollowed out Zune shells to MS employees so that they can slip their iPods inside when they go to work.
Why is it that companies feel they need to conquer every aspect of every market?
That's crazy - Microsoft doesn't feel the need to conquery every aspect of every market. You don't see them selling a SegWay competitor, do you?
What Microsoft does need to conquer is every market that Apple goes into. If Apple started sellng SegWays, Microsoft would jump in with a scooter that didn't self balance, occasionally stopped when WinCE crashed, had WiFi, got worms, and it would be four dollars and eighty-eight cents cheaper than Apple's. They would pre-announce the iScoot-killer 9 months in advance at their developers' conference.
Bluntly, if Apple had never done the iPod Microsoft wouldn't have a Zune. At the time it was an unusual play for a computer maker to go into portable audio.
Whether this is born of fear, jealousy, insecurity, poor self-image, or they're just brown with envy, I'm not sure.
Oh, and ditto for Google.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
When it came out, it was a cool Mac accessory. My wife had recently gotten her Mac, and was really enjoying using it. I got her a 1G iPod as a present, and she loved it. It was sleak and clean, and OS X was just coming into its own as a sleak and clean operating system. It was something different and fun, and for the tech/gadget freak that was playing with OS X (either techies as a clean Unix, music people enjoying the new operating system, or graphics people complaining about OS X but sitting at Mac's all day, it was a great pick-up. Macs had (and still have) a price premium, which means that their user base likely has some disposable income (I own a bunch of Macs for business, they hold up in production use for YEARS, are priced similarly to similar PCs, but because of a limited catalog, have a premium... i.e. spec a PC, then go spec a Mac that has the same OR better specs, that Mac will have better specs and cost more... if you go the other way, the Mac often costs a bit less, but the Mac forces an "up-sell" because of the limited catalog)...
Basically, wealthy, highly educated, technology-savvy urbanites were the first iPod users. Combine that with their iconic headsets, and they had a brand premium when the Windows version shipped... Without the Mac-first launch, I don't think that the iPod brand would have popped up there... They built a brand premium, and the "available now for Windows" got Windows people that were envious of the Mac/iPod users to buy it... once you got that corner of the market, you had a brand to shift to widespread market adoption.
Remember, it was a premium priced player ($400 was the only model then). Every intro-Marketing course will teach you how BWM had an easier time moving down market with the 3-series than Toyota had trying to move up-market... Toyota had to create the Lexus brand independently to create a premium brand. It is easy for a premium player to create a down-market brand if it is clearly the down-market brand, because people aspiring to the luxury brand will buy-in, if the company keeps their premium separate. Going up-market is REALLY hard.
Look at the Mac vs. PC ads, they are whimsical, but focused on the brand. They push the PC as "an alright solution, and work-friendly," but the Mac is where it is at for creative stuff. To an upper-middle class family, the Mac will make them younger, hipper, and more creative, the PC just lets them get work done. It's a fascinating look at the branding exercise, because for the LONGEST time, the conventional wisdom was "sure, Macs are pretty and good for designers, but PCs are better for getting actual work done." After 10 years of fighting this perception, Apple decided to run with it and say, "sure, PCs are better for getting actual work done, but when you are ready to be creative, the Mac is where it is at." That message appears to be working, because it is positive. Everyone wants to think that they are going to have fun and create things, so the Mac gets pushed up market.
Alex
we're geeks, generally speaking, we work hard to stay OUT of the social!
First, it took quite awhile to figure out it is a Zune. Oddly enough (for Microsoft especially) there is no logo printed on the case anywhere, just a serial number on the bottom-back. There was fortunatly a display, but not anywhere near the sample, that I was able to match against the picture of. I was able to identify the several iPod products (especially a very tiny clip-on thing I had not seen before) because it said Apple (though tiny) somewhere on the back.
Second, it was dead. The iPod and the 3rd party machines were all working. Not sure what this indicates, it could mean far more people tried it? Or that the hardware can break?
I searched around and tried to find one so I could see what the api was. There on the other side of the aisle was some sort of Zune-dock, with what looked like a Zune plugged into it showing a picture. I went to try it, and the controls did not work! Despite being clamped down with a plastic bracket and not removable, it was a "non funcional unit" according to printing on the base, with a transparency (!) stuck in the display and lit by the backlight. Right next to it was a Bose iPod dock, with a real, working, nano in it (also clamped down so it could not be stolen).
So after a bit of searching I was completely unable to see the Zune's display or try it's user interface, yet I managed to try 3 or 4 apple products and something from sanyo (?) even though I was not searching for them. So far I think complete incompetence of their sales department is responsible for everything.
Unless the machine is so bad that it is better for them to prevent people from trying it before buying it? That is the impression I got, but I know Microsoft hardware is very high quality so I was able to dismiss that impression, but others might not.
Stores which Apple has never heard of, that don't even cary iPods, have big displays of speakers and cases designed aroungd the iPod, manufactured by companies Apple has never heard of. That's what a massive "installed base" gets you. Not even MS has the cash to simulate that level of market saturation. Even if they did, it would obviously be stupid; nobody buys the iPod to go with their belt holster.
You mean, unable to beat the previous generation console and very likely to be the third place console when Sony and Nintendo get their production lines going full speed?
You know that the 360 didn't make Microsoft's projections for the year, right?
The cake is a pie
Nokia is by far the biggest seller of devices capable of mp3 playback. Biggest seller of digital cameras and cellphones as well.. go figure :)
...after buying shit from Microsoft for years, their loyal customers have gained an acquired taste for brown.
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
Nah, that queue was flushed some time ago.
I was at Target yesterday...there was a large Zune display out in a busy aisle. A display that was being completely ignored.
When I was standing next to it, an 80-year-old granny walked by, pushing a cart with a pink iPod speaker system in it.
The cake is a pie
The problem with your argument is that the success of the Xbox is inherently tied to the success of their exclusive titles - specifically Halo (and now perhaps Gears of War). Were it not for those exclusive titles, the Xbox would most likely still be an also ran. This is often true of video game consoles. The parallel statement for music is rarely true - i.e. the iPod is probably not a success because of its exclusive tracks available via the iTunes store. Therefore, even if Microsoft did obtain similar kinds of exclusive content arrangements - as it did with the Xbox - it doesn't seem as if that itself would be enough to change it's current place in the music player marketplace.
The dynamics which contributed to the ultimate success of the Xbox platform (and Windows for that matter) don't seem to apply to music players. People aren't buying the iPod because of exclusive content - they buy it because of the device itself.
ajsgushauqaiuaisnhx
Why do you care? Yes, you, reading this comment now - you clicked through to the discussion; why? Me, I came in to ask this - I have zero interest in the Zune or its sales figures. I have a media player and I'm perfectly happy with it.
Your turn - why do you care how well or badly the Zune is faring? Unless you own stock, I don't see the relevance.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
That reminds me of a friend at the data center: a very peculiar guy, technically very competent yet focused on learning speech techniques, philosophy, all the humanistic things.
:-)
Well, to create a proper climate, he even got himself one of those decorative mini Zen gardens, with sand and little stones. He even made those circles in the sand, meaning the sea/universe, I don't know.
Well, some of his "friends" put a fake crap in his Zen garden... I almost had a seizure when I saw it... Unix guys can kill sometimes, beware!
iPods all ready have a large chunk of the market, as this article clearly states. This is why they continue to be popular and will stay popular for at least 2 or 3 more years. I work at Radioshack and we sell many different models of mp3 players, including the entire iPod line up, many Sandisk players, and some Creatives and Zune's available through our delivery system and some stores. iPods sell better simply because 9 out of 10 people who are looking for a digital music player are looking for an iPod. They want that cool thing their friend, or brother had. Believe it or not some people don't know what a mp3 is. I had a lady ask me the other day what an iPod is, and I told her that it was just a brand of mp3 player that you could put music on from your computer. She imediately asked me what an mp3 player was because she had never heard of it. iPods are easy for anyone to figure out, period. For us geeks we can take our time figuring out a product that is superior in other ways, but most consumers are lazy. They want something that works and that they don't have to worry about. Most consumers don't do a lot of research, but buy by brand recognition. Frankly iPod is the only brand of digital music players most consumers can name. I've talked to several coworkers about the Zune, and most of my tech savvy coworkers did not even know it existed, much less know we stocked it, until I informed them.
Vista would have been OS upgrade of the year if Microsoft hadn't laced with DRM, WGA and other "I'm calling home to ask for permission" crap people don't want on their PCs. Zune might have been successful if Microsoft had given more thought to the looks and ergonomics of the unit and called it something more palateable like "Symphony". Every time I hear "Zune" I get the image of 13 year olds with braces and shorts drinking coke and twiddling game controllers on their parents couch.
While I understand the joys of Schadenfreude, I just understand why all of you people are getting your knickers in a twist over this. I have looked at the Zune and it is an OK player. I am on my third iPod, and trust me, they have problems too. give it a rest.
The hardware of the unit is ok, but the sound quality is pretty sad. It's worse than my Dell DJ gen 1, which is based off the Creative Zen line. There's no customizable EQ. The interface is decent, but they really dropped the ball with the SQ. How do you mess that up? I'm no audiophile and my best canalphones aren't even that expensive relatively, and I can hear the sound difference vs. the Creative Zen hardware in my Dell DJ. Plus, the unit is a little fat relative to an iPod, and only 30GB of capacity. I dunno about you guys, but I have more than 30GB of music. The lack of an in-line optional remote is also annoying. The RDS feature for FM was interesting, but it seems to take a while to populate the text and it often gets corrupted. I don't know if this is an RDS issue or a problem with the Zune implementation. The Wifi, is of course a DRM'd useless joke that just makes the player weigh more. Bluetooth stereo headphone support would've been far more useful.
The software on the PC is the real killer. It's not iTunes. In fact, it sucks. It crashes quite often, has poor format support, is slow (seriously, just scrolling through music chugs). I don't like iTunes much, in fact I'm a folder/WinAmp man, but iTunes is pretty good compared to the suck that is the Zune software. The features to get missing song tag info also don't work very well. Seriously, if a file is named "Artist - Song.mp3" it doesn't take Hal 9000 to deduce that might be a good place to start looking for MP3 tag information. Speaking of which, the lack of support for a folder-based navigation system bothers me in general. That aside, the software is a bloated, slow, buggy mess.
Is it worth $90? Maybe. Is it worth $250? Not even close. The software sucks, the player's a fatty with mediocre sound quality, and even if the iPod did not exist I'd rather have a Creative or Samsung player. Bad design, and bad implementation. It's aggravating and annoying to use, and doesn't play the formats I use. Rio once had a player called "Karma". I think that's a more fitting title than "Zune" for what's happening here. Supposedly the odds of getting one on Amazon.com for $90 were 122:1 or something. In my crystal ball I see those odds decreasing in the future, unless Microsoft learns how to write efficient, stable, interoperable code. (hah)
I got it!!! Let's spend 200 dollars on a DRM infested piece of shit (i.e. Ipod Nano) that scratches when I look at it!
Or, we can buy a Rio Carbon that requires no software to put music on, can be used as an external hard drive, uses a standard mini-usb cable, is cheaper...etc.
Just because a ferrari can drive fast and look good doing it does not mean it will tow my friend's car out of the snow or allow me to take my new 50" plasma screen home. My pickup truck, however, will.
Living With a Nerd
How dare you assign any company, other than Microsoft, monopoly status on a slashdot thread.
There are other monopolies. Please sir, proceed to educate us all as to exactly how Apple has a "monopoly" on MP3 players, as opposed to simply being popular.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Circuit City:
Zune front row on MP3 section: no one looking at it
Ipod back row: 10 people looking at it
Frys:
Ipod - dedicated shelf
Zune - bottom shelf, no advertising. Lady had her shopping cart blocking the Zunes.
Compusa:
Large advertising, 1 Zune had movies but was locked not to rotate, 2nd Zune had a fake screen - just a toy (Whatda?!)
Looks like it was made to fail by either the stores or advertisers.
When no one buys, they go on sale - Ya hoo!! $150 here they come.
While you may think the color brown is unhip, you must understand that from a designer's and marketer's POV brown has been a 'HOT' color for at least the last year.
While this is true, you have to consider WHAT browns have been hot.
Mostly what has been popular are rich, darker shades of brown - more like dark chocolate than milk chocolate. Yet the brown Zune comes in exactly this lighter anemic shade.
Go to any Target, they have them on display. I was perfectly willing to be open minded about color - I like brown myself as a color (for clothes and furniture at least). But to me, the shade of brown chosen for the Zune was especially unappealing.
Now it could be that the brown they use suffers from color metamerism and under the store lights it looks worse than it would in incandescent or outdoor lighting. But if that is the case, why oh why have them in the display in the first place?
With some colors, the shade used makes a huge difference - brown is one of those, and as far as I can tell Microsoft chose... poorly.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Heck, Microsoft is going to essentially be supporting USB drives as extended memory, but the Zune doesn't seem to be built to be supported for THAT!
I still think it was a huge mistake for Microsoft not to support USB mounting as a hard drive.
However, this particular use with Vista would actually not make much sense - the whole reason you want to use a USB drive for extended memory is that it's much faster than a HD for swap (because they are usually flash memory, in the smaller sizes). So the Zune, which also has a HD, would not be good for this purpose. A Shuffle or Nano would work though being flash based...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I never heard any buzz, where was this 'hype' people keep referring to?
Wow... a whole month or two on the market, and Zune only makes up ~2%. I'm shocked, absolutely shocked. I mean, remember when the iPod came out, and everyone went "Wow, that's a great device, I can't wait to have one! And what a classy name too! And the design is so perfect, and there's already a million gizmos you can get! There's nothing wrong with it at all!". Remember that? And how it immediately shot up to %80 market share overnight? I can't believe those micro$oft lusers only got to 2%. They suck so bad. Suckity suck suck. In fact, we should rename the company "iSuck", or maybe "iLuser", to represent how badly they suck for not shattering an established product in a competitive market in only a few months. Bill should just shoot himself in the head now. Or maybe have Steve throw a chair at him. Then he can get some workmans comp.
If I knew the wedgies I gave you back in 6th grade would have resulted in this . . . I might have taken a moments pause.
30 gig video iPod. Chrome back scratches and leaves unsightly fingerprint smears all over it the second you handle the unit it outside a protective cover. Black unit shipped with unsightly white USB connector cable and cheap white headphones that went bust after just two weeks of use. Menu navigation and clickwheel use is slow rather than efficient. Shows up as a drive letter in Windows but can't seem to "see" MP3 folders or videos dragged onto it without going through proprietary iPod software.
Pretty disappointing imo.
Here's the Zune Poor little Zune Goin' over like a lead balloon
This sig, aah-ah, is comin' like a ghost-sig...
Maybe the Brown Zune should have a new slogan... What Can't Brown Do For You?
Windows has detected an undetectable error.
But every time it looks like someone is about to catch up, Apple released something that packs just as much (or more) iPoddy goodness into a smaller former factor. They keep getting smaller, thinner, sleeker. This is very important. When other companies started coming out with players to compete with the full-size iPod, Apple released the iPod mini. When other started gaining form factors to approach the mini - they released the nano. So now we have a nano which has more storage than the orginal full-size iPod, in an amazingly convenient form factor. The original iPod was considered small and sleek for its generation - now it looks like a fatass compared to the nano.
... and then they built the supercollider.
How interesting - both this APOLAUF fellow and one other responder to him that say how much he liked his Zune both seem to have created ID's recently, and also have ONLY posted to this Zune story. Would someone really create a userID just to defend the Zune?
What about the interface makes it "fun" to use compared to an iPod? Personally a prefer a device I can listen to music to, where the interface is not "fun" but quick and non-intrusive.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Though it's not really the same thing as your idea, it does seem like you could grab music wirelssly off the Zune kiosks in stores...
I agree though it would have been better to have that side of things automated, and people just wander nearby to get tunes.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Just wait until after Christmas. I'll bet the Zune will have negative market share as soon as the kids unwrap their presents.
***Ability to hook it into most cars and display track info on the dashboard.
i think you misspelled "more".
I think you misspelled "any".
What other cars can I plug a Zune into and get track details on the car display?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Thank You. That was one of the most insightful and well thought out submissions regarding the RIAA, record companies, and the overall issue of downloadable music I have read here on Slashdot in a long time. You're post hits the core of the problem: Stupid business models and greedy decisions by the record companies. I haven't heard a lot of REALLY great music come out in a while, but recently I did. I heard a piece of it on the radio, and the DJ identified the group and said to check them out, so I did. I checked them out by downloading (illegally) a couple of their songs. I was blown away, and downloaded (illegally) even more of their songs. Then I found out their album had yet to be released in the US, so on the day it did release, I went to Best Buy and bought that album and was shocked at how cheap it was ($8). Because of how cheap it was, and because of how even more blown away I was by this band, I told all of my friends who have similar tastes that they should really BUY this album. Almost every song on the album was great. This is the kind of group that these companies need to sign and hopefully they can create really good buzz about the ALBUM, not just a single. On the downside, this band is not getting as much recognition in the States that they deserve. Their singles are played on the radio, but not much (which might be a good thing. Radio can kill songs just as fast as they make them famous). However, the band is featured in movies, commercials, some TV shows, and video games. Almost everyone has heard them, but hardly anyone has heard of them.
I digress, but once again want to thank you for a truly great and insightful post.
P.S. Checkout Wolfmother. They are, in my opinion, awesome.
"It's not whether you win or lose, it's how drunk you get." -- H. J. Simpson
Back and forth
No real biggie there, but I have a lot of live concerts, most all of which span multiple CDs. In foobar2000, I had already had them all tagged accordingly, but for some reason the Zune just didn't recognize the metadata for it. No substitute field, either. It's really annoying to half to skip 2 tracks every track when listening to WEEN live in Minneapolis.
Still, I thought those were both kinda minor, but then I got to using the Zune for the real reason I bought it: lossless. Long story short I goofed up on reading the specs and the Zune doesn't support lossless. It will even try to cap your 320kbs .mp3/.m4a at 192 and convert it to .wma. But here's the question: Why would a device trying to compete--nay overthrow, the iPod limit its capabilities to anything inferior?? The iPod has its own lossless codec, which is quite good.
All those little things have the marks of typical Microsoft goof-ups and they just stare you in the face when you use the Zune and you hate it more and more.
You were critically hit for no damage. The bruise will look nice, and maybe the scars will make good party talk.
Why do you care? ... you clicked through to the discussion; why?
Because I hate Microsoft and the trolls who mess with Slashdot.
Yes, using discussion 2 I waded through the forrest of troll posts. It's not that hard to close up the treads that they pollute, though it does bury interesting comments. So goes the continued denial of service attack on Slashdot.
Why do I bother? I'm waiting on a data analysis. The machine I get the data from uses Windoze 2000, so connecting it to the net and automating the process is a no go. This gives me hours of time to contemplate. Despite the crap flood, I find amusing things to read and write about.
Contemplating the death of M$'s music venture and DRM is more pleasant than most things I've read this morning. There's not really much the apologists can say about this one. Like Xbox, Zune is inferior and a poor competitor. Music and games are all about sharing and fun - the exact opposite of the M$ way, which is more about screwing your "competitors" over. M$ has done so much harm to the US and world economies that the officers deserve jail time, but that's unlikely right now. In the mean time, I'm happy that they are not able to screw everyone in this one small way - they will not manage to further damage the market for music players. Enough reverses like this and they might finally lose their grip on the desktop and nothing could be nicer than that.
Without revenue, M$ will be unable to do the things required to keep their 1980's software model dominant:
Yes, I hate the things that Microsoft stands for and does.
My data's done - gotta go for a while.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
I bet the next time when there's a discussion about the tiny tiny Macintosh market share, when I'll say something like "Gee, I'd like to see how it compares to comparable PCs, instead of overall", I'll get branded as a fanboy and cult follower
All the Microsoft players have a pretty bluescreen that Apple just can't match.
it's okay. so did i
The IP cartels have forgotten how business works: sell people products that they want at a reasonable price, and people will purchase your product.
Video game consoles are about as restrictive as you can get and they still like hotcakes.
Microsoft simply flubbed by entering a fairly open market with a restrictive product. They never have really got it -- They enjoy a near monopoly and unheard of profitability due to having a product corporate America bought into: Windows. They didn't learn much on their way to success, other than copying look and feel from the Mac.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
and doesn't do what it should (namely, the #1 thing it should do that it doesn't is play Plays For Sure(TM) files).
Much more important to me than the ability to play any DRM music is the ability to attach to any computer and drag and drop DRM free MP3's. The Zune is not only incompatible with older versions of Windows, it is also incompatible with any version of *NIX or Apple.
Let's face it. Apple's players work on Apple, Windows (most versions) and even Linux when using any one of the jukebox software that can sync with an I-pod.
My $40 Coby off brand player does better than the Zune in this regard. The only thing it doesn't do is play DRM'ed files. That is not a liability. It does attach as a flash drive and works by drag and drop. It has a built in tuner and mic and can record from both. Recorded files can be copied directly off the player as MP3's. The expensive Zune has a tuner, but it can't do this simple task at all. In a nutshell the Coby is compatible with any computer with a USB port and can record of the radio or mic. The Zune is dead on the compatiblilty issue.
Wirelessly sharing a limited use file is no competiton to dropping by a friends house and dragging and dropping a bunch of MP3's with no restrictions and no special software install.
The truth shall set you free!
Others corrected some other parts about the summary, but I don't see a correction about this one.
From TFA:
That's about the same as the quite model, not "more popular than the white model." Plus, the implication (or at least my inferrence) was that the brown model was surprisingly popular overall, yet it's selling less than 1/3 as many as the black model.
Try loading Zune with some non-English song names or ID3 tag info. It shows square boxes while iPod handles it smoothly. MS website workaround : rename / change the ID3 tag of all those files and give it an English name. I am speechless ...
Most of the reasons people have listed that make the iPod 'better' baffle me. An aftermarket ecosystem? You mean people actually pay 200 USD for tinny speakers slapped into a bullnosed white box and labeled "Bose"?
The music store? I find this particularly interesting. I took a course last quarter that involved discussions about ethical and moral issues in computer science. Naturally piracy crops up, I do believe every single person in the class (~40) admitting to pirating music and only 2 people said they had actually purchased music through ITMS. The music store is a complete non feature for at least a very sizable portion of the demographic.
I guess it makes sense then, why people don't like the "squirting" feature. Funny that, actually the Zune popped up into the mentioned discussion, and was immediately derided for 'violating' the creative commons license. I imagine if it was that trivial to share copyrighted works microsoft would be promptly barred from selling said product. I think it could be a cool way to discover new music, though it is obviously worthless at the moment, because as this story shows, nobody is buying the damn thing.
I'm inclined to believe that Apple recognizes this as a valuable new selling point and will in fact incorporate it into their players somewhere down the line, with similar restrictions, and it will be heralded as a 'great thing.' In the ensuing media frenzy several copies of Windows Vista will be sacrificed, and heretics will be formatted with a kudgel to appease the almighty jobs.
In short I'm convinced that a genuine hatred for Microsoft among the constituents of the tech community has been quite effective in spreading anti-marketing about the Zune. Reviewers actually seem to be somewhat neutral about it, James Kim of CNET liked it quite a bit, and Ars Technica, Gizmodo, etc. had some good things to say about it (with a lot of negatives as well).
Personally I'm not convinced there is anything truly wrong with the Zune and would consider buying one when my current portable music player (an iPod) expires. It has at least one nice feature that I would actually use, and that is an integrated radio tuner. We've got some good stations with strong signals (KEXP) here so I think it would be quite nice, and would save me from the endless cycle of ripping shows from their internet broadcast (though with the right tools this can be pretty automated) and putting them on my iPod.
It's just Microsoft's typical pattern...
Version 1.0 = laughable joke
Version 2.0 = OK, but still not as good as the competitor
Version 3.0 = Close enough to the competitor to win market share.
Version 4.0 = Total domination of market ("What's an I-Pod, is it anything like a Zune?")
It is only because of Microsoft's inconceivable financial reserves that they can survive so many inferior generations, where other companies would have had to throw in the towel.
-a.d.-
I'm Erwin Schrodinger and I approve of this message, and I do not approve of this message!
That's pretty insightful post but it misses the fundamental competition between a band and its label, and the ways in which they use each other. Most bands make much more money on their tours than they do their albums. This is especially true for mid-size bands--professional musicians but not rich. From their perspective, the purpose of the album is to drive attendance at shows, and the purpose of labels is to handle the production and distribution of the album.
This is in direct opposition to the labels' point of view. They make very little money off the tours, and to them the bread and butter is album sales and licensing. This system works well in that the self-interest of each party strengthens the other: the labels sell as many albums as they can, which leads to more kids at shows, which leads to more record sales, etc.
The fly in the ointment is that today it is so much easier to distribute music to the masses that the cost has dropped to zero. Thus, to a band, the only advantage of a label is in providing the capital for the album production. A mid-size band might conceivably not care if their albums sell a ton, as long as the music reaches the critics and the kids online.
But the labels care dearly how many albums sell. That is why you see the RIAA (an association of labels only) fighting as hard as they are. They are faced with a dramatically shrinking business model and they are trying to litigate/legislate it back into existence.
The music industry is already changing as you describe, but it is the bands who are driving it, as many of them realize they no longer need a big label and go (or stay) independent. The live music industry, and bands, will do just fine. It is the labels (who built their fortunes on distribution) who are hurting. They don't like ideas like yours because it means a smaller role (and profits) for them. They don't realize that it's going to happen whether they like it or not.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
the "lookin' awesome" part. Stylish TV-type people wake up with their teeth pre-brushed. Don't ask me how it works, I'm more the "stumbling out of bed because the baby woke up" type :-)
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
I suspect that if Microsoft Xbox division were its own company (i.e., if you removed the other concerns in their entertainment division) investors would be extremely sour on it. The competition today in the high-end console market is apt to be financially ruinuous to both Sony's and Microsoft's console business, i.e., they will be one-upping each other enough that neither can sell enough games (and collect other fees) per platform that they'll never make a real business of it (until one decides to drop out at least...). Anyone want to wager?
As for the Zune business, you should also realize that it is a very different business. Many, if not most, of the Zune's potential customers already have purchased a significant number of tracks on iTunes' Music Store. The forseeable inability of the Zune to readily play this music for the end-user is going to be a major strike against it. This is different than, say, consumers that own console-games because the next generation player (console) don't really make the older material seem less worthwhile. What's more, Microsoft must convince the major labels to licensing their music under terms at least as good as Apples. Apple may be a quasi-monopoly here, but I could see the labels having serious doubts about Microsoft's intentions...
Microsoft is obviously a huge company. However, almost all of their profits have come from their traditional businesses (e.g., Windows and Office.... the biggest exception to this being SQL). The competition that they've successfully beat have have largely been much smaller and have competed in areas where they were able to leverage their monopoly powers to tremendous advantage (e.g., Netscape). I simply don't see their "success" as being an all encompasing reason to believe that they'll succeed financially at any business they want simply because they're cash flush and presumably "smart".
I totally agree Palm squandered a lead. Apple did once as well, Mac OS did have a lead on Windows for some time very early on (pre-Windows 3.11) but they let that erode as well.
As you said though, Apple is a much less static target today. An example was killing of the iPod mini at the peak of popularity - they have tended to refresh product lines before they started waning.
And none of that has anything to do with monopoly, which was the original assertion - just as Palm never had a monopoly on PDA's despite a high market share, so to does Apple not have a monopoly on MP3 players.
And Microsoft is not only fighting Apple, they have a long way to go just to catch up to Creative or Sansa! Surely those companies can take some cues from the Zune and move ahead as well. You can even imagining one of those companies doing open wireless and daring studios to sue them.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
another 2 months I'll be able to get 2 for 20 bucks!
Then it's Hackin' time. With complete control, I bet these babies can do some amazing stuff.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Stop spreading such lie please.
DRM is the deliberate mechanism of record companies to harrass their paying costumers (the people really profitting from piracy could not care less).
DRM was not born out of thin air in nature, it is a deliberate social and technological mechanism which companies with half a clue would have dropped long time ago (or would have not started to use it in the first place).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
- Can you move your songs to another player? (without dancing a conversion ringmarole please).
- Can you buy songs in another shop for your iPod? (not that there are any of significance).
The moment that Apple begins to do silly things (lets say to demand that no artist of the music cartels peddles his wares in other shops) they will be in exactly the same position MS was when they began to armforce the computer suppliers.
A reminder that in most civilized places to be a monopoly is not against the law, but monopolies have to be careful how they move when doing bussiness. Apple, for all practical purposes is the proverbial bull that just entered the china shop.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The reality is that competition drives down margin, not overall profits (something commonly glossed over in economics classes). The reality is that the labels are in for a future of falling margins... well boohoo, everyone in the world is, that's the point of competition. In an extremely competitive world, profits drop as competition emerges, so one can make profits only via moving fast (before the competition arrives), or be erecting barriers to entry.
The labels are entering a period of lower profit margins. They can bitch and moan, legislate to slow it, litigate to recover from it, but in the end, margins are dropping because of competition from other sources of entertainment and pirated versions of their music.
This is not something that can be stopped, but is a natural economic consequence of what is going on. My suggestion is that they adapt to business models that utilize lower margins, instead of wishing that the government will grant them back their fat-cat status.
The problem for them is that they are SO focused on whining, they have blown and missed several key opportunities because of their terror of digital.
Minidiscs: they were so paranoid of people copying, that they avoided this format (by avoiding, I mean not offering cheaper versions that people would buy)... Hell, my Dad routinely copies his CDs to tapes for playing in the car, but the labels sold plenty of tapes to people that didn't want to bother. They could have sold tremendous amounts of minidiscs by supporting them with cheaper priced music. People would have bought minidiscs for walkmen, and I bet Car minidisc players would have shipped, and they might have gotten people to routinely buy extra copies.
SA-CD/DVD-A, they have done NOTHING to promote this high fidelity option, and generally been lazy about introducing music in the format. The music that they released in this format was extremely expensive. Releasing a SA-CD/CD hybrid for a SMALL premium over the CD (say, $2-$4) and people would have bought into the technology. Unfortunately, the idiots in the labels through temper-tantrums about digital copies of their IP, so they wouldn't let the manufacturers transmit the high fidelity audio over the existing toslink solution, and resulted in 6 cable messes, etc. Well, people weren't going to buy new receivers and buy into this attrocity without a compelling reason, and the labels refused to provide it.
Woops, there are two examples of where short-sited fear of piracy (which is a joke, everything is pirated anyway) and people exercizing fair use slowed the adoption of technology that would have let them MAKE A FORTUNE. They could have sold chunks of their archive again.
The other point to my comment on the model is that the days of the megastar making obscene money for their labels is coming to a close. The manufactured one-hit wonder will keep selling fewer and fewer CDs, because people WILL NOT buy a CD for the one song on the radio... for one song, you download it... I hear something catchy on the radio, I check the iTMS, I don't P2P music because I don't steal, but they rarely will sell it to me because they worry about cannibalizing the CD sales... This is a strange way to market product (not sell people what they want), and isn't helping.
There are fundamental shifts in the market, and they need to adapt. There is a LOT of opportunity for them in this market, but they need to get over their fears of people having the ability to use it. CDs being copyable to tape didn't put them out of business. It made the CD more valuable and easier to charge more. The label's perpetual fear of technology IGNORES the fact that they make their obscene profit margins from their archives and people buying new formats. When MP3 took off, decent CD rippers were years off and we all had substandard MP3 collections. If they labels put out PROFESSIONAL grade MP3s, available for download at a cheap price ($5.99/album), they would have sold. Would they be traded? Yeah, but so what, they could