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You said, "golden plates that no-one ever saw". Now, if you knew even a smidgen of Mormon history you would know about the three Witnesses and the eight Witnesses. In fact, their testimony is printed in every Book of Mormon. Each of those eleven men to their dying day never denied seeing the plates.

I found it a bit interesting so I did a quick google on Book of mormon witnesses. The second hit was this at exmormon.org, which is very interesting reading. Much of it was apparently seeing through "secondary vision", "the spiritual eye", etc. Wikipedia also has a quick run-through.

Thats a good question. There are arguments for and against both polygamy and polyandry. The biggest problem with legalizing polygamy is that it is associated with certain religious cults that like to forcibly marry underage girls.

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That's easy enough to fix. it's already illegal to forcibly marry anyone and underage marriages are also illegal. So I'd say since that's the case I'm curious what other issues people have with the practice of polygamy itself.

I hear people say it's immoral but by who's standard? If it's adults and everyone wants it then I don't see the issue.

Just saying...

Thats a good question. There are arguments for and against both polygamy and polyandry. The biggest problem with legalizing polygamy is that it is associated with certain religious cults that like to forcibly marry underage girls.

> "America is controlled by Mormons"

No, silly! Everyone knows that America is controlled by corporations.

And LDS is one of the biggest

Oh, and:

Here, educate yourself.

You do understand that's like going to a GOP site to learn true facts about Democrats, and vice versa...

If you want to learn about Mormons, sit down with a member, a missionary, or go to one of their churches. If you want to learn lies about Mormons, get on the internet.

Oh, and:

Here, educate yourself.

Pretty much every Western culture requires women to cover their breasts while men can leave theirs bare. I'm not sure of the anthropological history of this particular example, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had Judeo-Christian roots. All cultures have screwy social norms. Most members of that culture can't recognize them.

Yeah seriously, check out what the Chinese used to do to girls.

If you want REALLY weird, check out the Mormons and their Magic Underwear. These freaks also practice "baptism by proxy", wherein they "baptize" dead people using a "stand-in" so that every "family member of a Mormon" gets a "Mormon Baptism"... turns out every few years, some German Mormon nutter gets it into their head to baptize Hitler, then they excommunicate him, then the cycle repeats.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that "consumption, storage, and transfusion" of blood is 100% verboten. They won't even pre-donate their own blood if they have to go in for a surgery where there may be extra blood needed.

As for the whole deal about cultures and what they will sexualize... I hereby direct you to Rule 34. Or Rule 34. Or Rule 34. Rule 34. In other words, Rule 34.

Clear?

Wow.

"As opposed to Creationists arguments being based on "everything you believe is rubbish because the Bible says so!"

Or could we say:

"As opposed to Evolutionists arguments being based on "everything you believe is rubbish because Science says so!"

Pretty convincing,don't you agree?

Or...

  "a means to an end for the established churches and religions around the world to exercise and justify torture, among other things, and complete control over people."

Oh yeah. Like my church, which I came to freely, and could leave any time I wanted to, and no one would come over and say "no, you can't" I doubt anyone would come over and say "no, you shouldn't". Some might ask me why.

There are churches that do berate their members if they try to leave. Some even kill those who abandon their faith. And they should not be.Some. Not all.

Stereotyping religions based on the actions of a few is not enlightened. You cannot judge a philosphy by its abuse.

It's amazing the extremes some politicans will go to to cover up affairs from their wives. "You see honey, I spend all weekend with...uh...ALIENS!" In other news, Ilyumzhinov is also planning a hiking trip this weekend on the Appalachian Trail--where his cellphone won't work, so don't even bother calling.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time a rediculously tall tail helped through the missus off the scent. When (Mormon founder) Joseph Smith was caught molesting a 14-year-old child, he simply told his followers (and his wife) that an angel with a sword commanded him to do it, and that everyone thereafter was ordered (by God, by way of sword-wielding angel and self-proclaimed prophet) to have more than one wife, on pain of death and damnation.

Which of course led to such wonderful quotes as:

"I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow."
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Twenty Seventh Wife, Irving Wallace, p. 101.

It's an interesting progression of excuses:

1. The Devil made me do it!
2. God, in the form of an angel with a flaming sword, made me do it!
3. Aliens made me do it!

At least with aliens, it's trendy and captures the zeitgeist

If it is not, how does the list of businesses on this page, owned and operated by the church, and the associated congressional hearing come to be?

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon410.htm

Not picking on mormons, I am more than certain were a similar inquiry into the catholic church, politically viable it would go the same, just refuting your claims :)

LDS. Do they teach their kids the ways of the church? Yes. Have I ever encountered a group of religious adherents that do it so openly and without coercion? No.

Just because coercion is subtle doesn't mean it's not coercion. For the other side of the story, check out http://www.exmormon.org/. Of course, active LDS folks will take one look at it, call it "anti-Mormon" and decide they don't have to pay any attention to it. But there are lots of stories there about the pain that the LDS church can and does inflict on people who dare to think about the religion.

-Mike

Aside from having relatives that are in the cult and seeing much first-hand, Google is your friend:

the Mountain Meadows massacre
The Mormon Murders
CIA and FBI recruitment of Mormons (Time Magazine)
The Mormon Army

The list goes on, but I'll leave further research as an exercise for the reader.

It, like Groklaw, must all be part of a Scientology-level conspiracy by IBM to discredit them and make them look bad.

Not scientology. Mormon, which, as someone who watched that cult destroy countless lives (including people with whom I share genetic material), is at least as toxic as cult, and certainly as dishonest.

To those who have escaped the clutches of these sorts of cults, or (as in my case, as an atheist since I was five or six) have had to live a life of rationality in a sea of religiously induced madness, I can only say that it is unsurprising that the SCO attack on Linux, and by extension free software in general, was fostered in Utah and led by a Mormon bishop.

Yeah, we had a crackpot like that at work for about 2 weeks... she just seemed to lie constantly, for no reason. She also seemed to really believe it.

Was she a Mormon?

I would be absolutely fascinated to see this technique tried out on a sample of the Mormon population.

As one who has had family and friends in that particular cult, I can tell you the ability of those in that subculture to lie to themselves and others, and work themselves into a position of believing it, is something I've not seen anywhere else (except perhaps in Washington, and I believe Washington would come in second place). Examples include but are not limited to: outright fabrications about other people and things they supposedly did/did not do (all of which were trivially disprovable, yet the proof was ignored and the lie spoken even more resolutely), dismissial of emperical proof as to the falseness of the religion itself (examples include DNA, ear-wax, facial-feature, and other studies disproving the core tenat of the Mormon faith and the Book of Mormon, that Native Americans are decendents of an Israelite named Lehi who was led by the Lord to bring his family to America, whereupon the bad sons Lamen and Lemual were cursed by God and given dark skin--I kid you not. Other examples include Egyptologists looking at the Paparyi the Mormon "Book of Abraham" is supposed to be a translation of, which has subsequently been shown to be a common burial document having nothing to do with Abraham, or any other Biblical figure, and the list goes on).

The deceitfulness of this subculture, both to themselves and to others, is quite well documented on the Recovery from Mormonism site, and surpasses even my (low) expectations based on my personal experience.

Alas, any such study would likely suffer the same fate this post is likely to suffer, and indeed the fate that most articles and literature critical of that religion suffer (despite mountains of factual evidence and well documented research): getting spiked (or moderated) into oblivion by those supportive of such groups.

That was easy.

Two ways to end the war: (1) Kill all terrorists. (2) Convert to Islam. Unfortunately, diplomacy is not a part of either

Stupidest....sig.....EVAR! Seriously, dude, do you really think that way?

Doesn't change the fact that their religious beliefs are fucking nuts.

That they are, and as with any mentally ill person, the "niceness" is often feigned and certainly not stable.

But, once you get past that, they're wonderful people. And I'm completely serious. Aside from the whacko religious rantings, society would be very much enhanced if we all acted slightly more like your average morman.

No, we wouldn't be better off. At all.

I am related to mormons (a parent, a sibling, various and sundry extended family), and I can tell you that they are "great people" only superficially, and only so long as they believe they can attract you to their way of thinking "by example."

I can tell you from personal experience that, if they don't get what they want from you, be it financial support of otherwise unsustainable lifestyles (they are told to have as many kids as possible, while still in college, then to hit up family first, friends second, and the church last when the money inevitably falls short, all the while still paying 10% of their gross income to the church), or "respect and acknowledgement" of the "superiority" of their beliefs, they turn into some of the most vindictive, nasty people you'll ever know.

To the point of taking it upon themselves to do everything in their power to break up marriages they don't approve of, as has happened to me personally, my parent leading the charge. (They failed, and now I thankfully have no contact whatsoever with them).

You really should check out exmormon.org, particularly the bullitin board where people are posting their personal experiences in recovering from the depredations of that partiuclar religious cult. As with most groups recovering from abuse, there is a lot of anger there, but read past that to what people there are going through, and what their Mormon family and friends are doing to them for their "crime" of doubting or rejecting the Mormon faith, and you begin to get an inkling of the ugliness that underlies the benign Mormon PR ficade. My experience, which my wife and I believed to be unbelievably extreme, is in fact almost laughably common among Mormons who begin to doubt the provably (and proven) false claims of their religion, and those of us non-Mormons unfortunate enough to have had close ties to the more devout (a number of people recovering from the abusiveness of Mormonism have themselves never been Mormons, but that has proven to be little protection when their spouse converts and then divorces them on instruction from their Bishop, in order to marry a "good, upstanding" Mormon, as happened in at least one case).

Back on topic, for "contributing" so much to genetics with their genealogoy fetish, the Mormon leadership sure is eager to reject genetic proof that the premise of the Book of Mormon (that native Americans are descendents of an Isrealite named Lehi) if false, and to excommunicate or disfellowship those who have done the science. Mormonism is anything but a bastion of science or intellectualism (in fact, their current leadership has stated openly that--and I'm paraphrasing--"intellectuals are an enemy of the church")

Doesn't change the fact that their religious beliefs are fucking nuts.

That they are, and as with any mentally ill person, the "niceness" is often feigned and certainly not stable.

But, once you get past that, they're wonderful people. And I'm completely serious. Aside from the whacko religious rantings, society would be very much enhanced if we all acted slightly more like your average morman.

No, we wouldn't be better off. At all.

I am related to mormons (a parent, a sibling, various and sundry extended family), and I can tell you that they are "great people" only superficially, and only so long as they believe they can attract you to their way of thinking "by example."

I can tell you from personal experience that, if they don't get what they want from you, be it financial support of otherwise unsustainable lifestyles (they are told to have as many kids as possible, while still in college, then to hit up family first, friends second, and the church last when the money inevitably falls short, all the while still paying 10% of their gross income to the church), or "respect and acknowledgement" of the "superiority" of their beliefs, they turn into some of the most vindictive, nasty people you'll ever know.

To the point of taking it upon themselves to do everything in their power to break up marriages they don't approve of, as has happened to me personally, my parent leading the charge. (They failed, and now I thankfully have no contact whatsoever with them).

You really should check out exmormon.org, particularly the bullitin board where people are posting their personal experiences in recovering from the depredations of that partiuclar religious cult. As with most groups recovering from abuse, there is a lot of anger there, but read past that to what people there are going through, and what their Mormon family and friends are doing to them for their "crime" of doubting or rejecting the Mormon faith, and you begin to get an inkling of the ugliness that underlies the benign Mormon PR ficade. My experience, which my wife and I believed to be unbelievably extreme, is in fact almost laughably common among Mormons who begin to doubt the provably (and proven) false claims of their religion, and those of us non-Mormons unfortunate enough to have had close ties to the more devout (a number of people recovering from the abusiveness of Mormonism have themselves never been Mormons, but that has proven to be little protection when their spouse converts and then divorces them on instruction from their Bishop, in order to marry a "good, upstanding" Mormon, as happened in at least one case).

Back on topic, for "contributing" so much to genetics with their genealogoy fetish, the Mormon leadership sure is eager to reject genetic proof that the premise of the Book of Mormon (that native Americans are descendents of an Isrealite named Lehi) if false, and to excommunicate or disfellowship those who have done the science. Mormonism is anything but a bastion of science or intellectualism (in fact, their current leadership has stated openly that--and I'm paraphrasing--"intellectuals are an enemy of the church")

Doesn't change the fact that their religious beliefs are fucking nuts.

That they are, and as with any mentally ill person, the "niceness" is often feigned and certainly not stable.

But, once you get past that, they're wonderful people. And I'm completely serious. Aside from the whacko religious rantings, society would be very much enhanced if we all acted slightly more like your average morman.

No, we wouldn't be better off. At all.

I am related to mormons (a parent, a sibling, various and sundry extended family), and I can tell you that they are "great people" only superficially, and only so long as they believe they can attract you to their way of thinking "by example."

I can tell you from personal experience that, if they don't get what they want from you, be it financial support of otherwise unsustainable lifestyles (they are told to have as many kids as possible, while still in college, then to hit up family first, friends second, and the church last when the money inevitably falls short, all the while still paying 10% of their gross income to the church), or "respect and acknowledgement" of the "superiority" of their beliefs, they turn into some of the most vindictive, nasty people you'll ever know.

To the point of taking it upon themselves to do everything in their power to break up marriages they don't approve of, as has happened to me personally, my parent leading the charge. (They failed, and now I thankfully have no contact whatsoever with them).

You really should check out exmormon.org, particularly the bullitin board where people are posting their personal experiences in recovering from the depredations of that partiuclar religious cult. As with most groups recovering from abuse, there is a lot of anger there, but read past that to what people there are going through, and what their Mormon family and friends are doing to them for their "crime" of doubting or rejecting the Mormon faith, and you begin to get an inkling of the ugliness that underlies the benign Mormon PR ficade. My experience, which my wife and I believed to be unbelievably extreme, is in fact almost laughably common among Mormons who begin to doubt the provably (and proven) false claims of their religion, and those of us non-Mormons unfortunate enough to have had close ties to the more devout (a number of people recovering from the abusiveness of Mormonism have themselves never been Mormons, but that has proven to be little protection when their spouse converts and then divorces them on instruction from their Bishop, in order to marry a "good, upstanding" Mormon, as happened in at least one case).

Back on topic, for "contributing" so much to genetics with their genealogoy fetish, the Mormon leadership sure is eager to reject genetic proof that the premise of the Book of Mormon (that native Americans are descendents of an Isrealite named Lehi) if false, and to excommunicate or disfellowship those who have done the science. Mormonism is anything but a bastion of science or intellectualism (in fact, their current leadership has stated openly that--and I'm paraphrasing--"intellectuals are an enemy of the church")

Doesn't change the fact that their religious beliefs are fucking nuts.

That they are, and as with any mentally ill person, the "niceness" is often feigned and certainly not stable.

But, once you get past that, they're wonderful people. And I'm completely serious. Aside from the whacko religious rantings, society would be very much enhanced if we all acted slightly more like your average morman.

No, we wouldn't be better off. At all.

I am related to mormons (a parent, a sibling, various and sundry extended family), and I can tell you that they are "great people" only superficially, and only so long as they believe they can attract you to their way of thinking "by example."

I can tell you from personal experience that, if they don't get what they want from you, be it financial support of otherwise unsustainable lifestyles (they are told to have as many kids as possible, while still in college, then to hit up family first, friends second, and the church last when the money inevitably falls short, all the while still paying 10% of their gross income to the church), or "respect and acknowledgement" of the "superiority" of their beliefs, they turn into some of the most vindictive, nasty people you'll ever know.

To the point of taking it upon themselves to do everything in their power to break up marriages they don't approve of, as has happened to me personally, my parent leading the charge. (They failed, and now I thankfully have no contact whatsoever with them).

You really should check out exmormon.org, particularly the bullitin board where people are posting their personal experiences in recovering from the depredations of that partiuclar religious cult. As with most groups recovering from abuse, there is a lot of anger there, but read past that to what people there are going through, and what their Mormon family and friends are doing to them for their "crime" of doubting or rejecting the Mormon faith, and you begin to get an inkling of the ugliness that underlies the benign Mormon PR ficade. My experience, which my wife and I believed to be unbelievably extreme, is in fact almost laughably common among Mormons who begin to doubt the provably (and proven) false claims of their religion, and those of us non-Mormons unfortunate enough to have had close ties to the more devout (a number of people recovering from the abusiveness of Mormonism have themselves never been Mormons, but that has proven to be little protection when their spouse converts and then divorces them on instruction from their Bishop, in order to marry a "good, upstanding" Mormon, as happened in at least one case).

Back on topic, for "contributing" so much to genetics with their genealogoy fetish, the Mormon leadership sure is eager to reject genetic proof that the premise of the Book of Mormon (that native Americans are descendents of an Isrealite named Lehi) if false, and to excommunicate or disfellowship those who have done the science. Mormonism is anything but a bastion of science or intellectualism (in fact, their current leadership has stated openly that--and I'm paraphrasing--"intellectuals are an enemy of the church")

The whole idea of having to write a letter to an organization in order to get them to leave you alone is offensive and creepy. Whether it's easy or not to write a letter is entirely beside the point. If Mormons don't want to be thought of as creepy cult members who won't leave their former members alone, then perhaps they ought to rethink some of their policies.

As for this being the work of a few isolated individuals, there is actually a support group for former Mormons:

http://www.exmormon.org/

They have an archive of many stories by ex-Mormons who have experienced a similar kick in the butt on their way out. You know you have a quality religion, when former members band together and form support groups.

I think you need some education about what Mormonism is and what they really believe in.

Your education begins here: http://www.exmormon.org/

Learn. I generally hate to make sweeping statements about any group of people, but Mormons are quite fucked up.

As one whose immediate family has been taken into that cult (and had their lives devastated by it), I can only add my voice to yours.

Mormons are quite fucked up. There is a brokenness of spirit that makes many of them quite recognizable in a crowd, a terrible fear of the world and an inability to cope with the tenants of mainstream society that is heart wrenching to behold. You won't see this in Utah, where Mormons surround one another, but it becomes readily apparent when you see one out of their element, in a crowd of "gentiles." Many of them are good people (a great many others are anything but), but their minds and souls have been terribly crippled.

Not to stray too far from the subject, but your line "most mormons are closer to following the new testament then a great many US Christians" is perhaps one of the most ridiculous things i have ever heard.

I think you need some education about what mormonism is and what they really believe in.

Your education begins here: http://www.exmormon.org/

Learn. I generally hate to make sweeping statements about any group of people, but mormons are quite fucked up.

Joseph Smith actually married a 14 year-old named Helen Mar Kimball.

Absolutely not. The Church stays strictly out of politics, except where a serious moral issue is involved, and then only the moral at issue is taught, but the vote and the law is up to the members individually.

Explain Ezra Taft Benson's affilation with the Birch sociecty then; not to mention his political appointments. How about the bank that Joseph Smith founded to print money? Who was the governer of Navoo? What about the law of consecration and Brigham Young's confescation of all wealth (or the Nation of Deseret, for that matter)?

Including a majority of the Utah state government, of course. What of a church that routinely gets such perks as the land swap for the "reflecting pool" in downtown Salt Lake (complete with a censoship zone); or how about the temple ceremony, in which members swear to uphold their leaders on penalty of death? Here are some quotes by the church's prophets, seers and revelators on the subject.

On the contrary, the Church is only homogenous in that we share certain core beliefs.

Wow, that list doesn't even scratch the surface of what I was taught while growing up in the church:

• All religions apart from Mormonism are an "abomination" in the sight of God
• People of "dark skin" were less valiant in the pre-existence, so God cursed them in this life
• American Indians are really errant Jews, who lost the gospel when they rebeled against God
• There are three levels of heaven, and you can only get to the highest level by practicing polygamy; then you will be a God and have your own planet
• John the Beloved and the Three Nephites are eternal beings that roam the planet, even today, doing the work of God (and the prieshood needed to be restored through Joseph Smith... why exactly?)
• Joseph Smith could translate a common Egyptian Funeral Book, to find that it contained extensive writings by father Abraham
• Homosexuality is a disase that you must suffer for (I wonder when the 1978-esque "oops, my bad, blacks can have the priesthood now" gay revelation will come). Masturbation is almost as bad.

To be fair, the church has changed dramatically over the past 50 years, and it continues to evolve into a more mainstream puritanical protestant sect (I bet Joseph Smith is rolling in his grave). Most of the members are people of high quality; heck, all my extended family are still members. They are generally great people to know, associate with and love. Despite that, I just get ruffled when the church portrayed as something that it really isn't; I did enough of that on my 2-year mission with the ultra-simplistic 6 discussions.

If you are interested in apologetic responses to any of the above, feel free to visit the FAIR website.

Nice points, I think. But it seems a thinly vieled attempt to fullfill your missionary duties.

I'm LDS, and I go to BYU. In this school - which is run basically by my church - we actually don't have a problem with evolution at all. We even (gasp) teach it. Why? We believe that God still speaks through a single source, and we have more than one witness of Christ. The idea that parts of the Bible might be allegorical or severely watered-down for the people of the time doesn't bother us at all.

That's great and all, but it's a shame that Mormonism is based on lies. The seriously blatant kind. The sort that are absolutely discredited by genetics, archeology, anthropology....

I don't have time to go into all the details, but these links should provide more than enough debunking regarding this false religion:

A seeminly unaffiliated perspective.
A christian perspective.

Key points:
The papyrus John Smith translated contained NO INFORMATION about abraham or golden plates. He made it up.
Black people are suppoed to become lighter skinned through practicing mormonism.
They believe that a certain native american tribe was descendent from the Jews.

I still do not comprehend how people do not place the LDS(mormons) in the same class as Scientology.

A bit of wit and a sprinkle of convensional wisdom can brand even a cult as progressive compared to the dusty scriptures of the "older" religions

> Mormon archeological claims

See here.

> Christian claims to a global flood.

And here...

Check out another view of the LDS church.

What is your definition of a "real Mormon?"

In my lifetime, I've attended Wards in California, Idaho and Utah. My experience has been that many attendees call themselves "Mormon" or "LDS" but few actually know what it means, much less live by it.

It's my experience that at least 80% of the "Mormons" who attend Church are not Mormon in the true sense of the word. Many come only for Sacrament, and then leave (failing to attend Priesthood meetings or Church History meetings). Many who do attend give no public service (as is encouraged by the Church and required for the highest level of salvation). Few, if any, help their fellow man. Even fewer host dinners for the missionaries (as you are encouraged to do).

Most Mormons view non-Mormons as religiously inferior, due to the fact that other religions are considered "the whores of Babylon" and those practicing said religions are considered apostate, an abomination and worse (excellent link).

Does going on a mission change how non-mormons are viewed, according to official Church doctrine? I think not.

I'll respond to both points in turn.

First, I don't believe it's very hard to "put one over on that many people." You can look at Scientology for an example of this. The Mormon church trains its members to not examine the religion critically, to not think for themselves, but rather to strictly obey the church hierarchy. Missonaries are not allowed to read anything except Mormon propaganda. Mormons are discouraged from associating with non-Mormons (at least in Utah proper), except for the purpose of converting them. When I was a little kid living in Utah, my Mormon friends were not allowed to invite me to their birthday parties. My older siblings couldn't date Mormons. There were all these church regulations to seperate the Mormons from anyone who might present an alternative point of view. Given the level of seperatism, and the level of discouragement of critical thought, I don't think it would be very hard for large amounts of corruption to hide in the upper echelons.

In terms of trickling up, I'd like to know what the selection process is. I'd certainly volunteer for a few years, if I knew my dad could then pull me into a position of wealth and power. If someone honest slips through, they leave in disgust, and vent on exmormon.org and similar sites, and are disregarded as "biased" by the rest of the Mormon community.

In terms of debunking exmormon.org (notice the .org -- exmormon.com is a very different site), it's not necessary to respond to every post on there. It's only important to respond to their main essay. If you can do that, the entire site would lose all credibility. I've spoken to a large, large number of Mormons, and none were able and willing to do so.

The pattern here is very similar to SCO. exmormon.org gives a very well-researched, well-written essay. It consists of very specific facts, and references primary sources. If the facts are incorrect, they should be very easy to debunk. This is very much like the research you find on Groklaw about the SCO case. In response to this, the Mormon church, much like SCO, just responds with vague, unsupported assertions of how it must be incorrect, because you can't "put one over on that many people," and similarly well-argued, well-supported statements.

If you can debunk that one essay, you will do your church a great service. I, personally, will change my view of your church in a heartbeat (I do have a very open mind on this -- it's just that there's a landslide of information against Mormonism, and precious little in favour). After asking a large number of Mormons, however, and researching it a small amount myself, I couldn't find anything wrong with it. If it's the case that everything in it is accurate, the Mormon church did, indeed, "put one over on that many people," yourself included.

I don't mind being "out there" as you characterize it, as long as my opinion is supported by fact. Hence, a little research will show you that:

1) Mormonism is not rooted in Christianity. For further clarification, see this link.

2) You obfuscate the issue, by stating that "blacks were always allowed in the Church." The question was whether or not the Church discriminated against blacks. The Church obviously has a long history of discriminating against, and maligning, blacks. For further information, see this link. Don't be surprised at the racist and hateful statements LDS apostles (who speak for God) have made against blacks throughout history.

I stated that Joseph Smith (founder of the Church) introduced and practiced polyandry (multiple wives and husbands), not polygamy (multiple wives for a single husband). You state erroneously that "there were never multiple men to one woman." Yet eight (8) of the thirty three (33) marriages of Joseph Smith were of this type! I suggest you check this link for supporting facts.

Likewise, everything in the temple is not documented. In fact, Mormon literature teaches us that "some things in the temple are sacred, and not to be revealed to outsiders." For an overview, see this link. For an overview of how the ceremony has changed over time, you can go here.

To address your next statement... yes, there are some racist people everywhere. But that wasn't the issue, or in question. I'm not sure what your point is in mentioning this. The fact that Mormons have a dark history with black people (no pun intended) is not exculpated by other examples of racism, rampant or otherwise.

You also state that "at no time did the leadership ever say black people had the mark of Cain." Again, you are incorrect. Plenty of LDS prophets (who speak for God) have told us so, as you can see for yourself right here. For a history of the black man and Mormonism in general, you can go here.

So far, your contentions are without merit. If you have evidence to present that is contrary to my researched opinion, please feel free to cite your sources, as I have done. I'm always open to assimilating new facts, and learning new things.

(This is a great blog! Spend some time there and learn about the wacko Mormon Church. Truly a bizarre chapter in American history.

As usual, the ex-members of a cult (yes, Mormonism is a cult) are the ones to talk to, since they have been on the inside and figured it out.

As is usual in other cults, Mormonism is simpy about founder Joseph Smith's desire to avoid honest work, make money, rule other people, and screw lots of women. He was a charismatic leader much like David Koresh. Some of the funny parts:

Joseph Smith joined the Masons, and copied all thier secret rituals. This is what mormons do in their "Temples" even today.

Joe Smith was a great storyteller and treasure hunter in his early days. He used a "peep-stone" (rock) in a hat to trick people into giving him money to locate buried treasure. He used his imagination adn this rock-in-hat to dictate the "Book of Mormon" to a secretary. (this kind of folk magic was popular in new england in the 1800's).

He had many polygamous "spiritual" wives (the youngest, Fannie Alger, was just 14), all a poorly kept secret to his first wife Emma. His usual M.O. was to send the husband away on a proseliting trip, and marry the wife in a secret ceremony, after which he took her to bed.

He owned a saloon attached to his house.

He was feared by the U.S. government because he had an army of 8,000 men at a time when the standing U.S. military was only 2,500 men.

Polygamy was openly practiced until the U.S. government threatened to withhold statehood for Utah, at which time a "revelation" from God was recieved which put an end to it.

Racism was openly practiced (no blacks could hold the "priesthood") until in 1978 the U.S. government threatened to withdraw the church's tax-free status, at which time a "revelation" from God was recieved which put an end to it.

Mormonism is a fascinating, disgusting, bizarre subject. I used to be one myself! (I'm feeling much better now) ;)

Check out the real facts about Mormonism from those of us who used to be Mormon:

Exmormon.org

For example, you can read about:

--Mormon founder Joseph Smith's fascination with magic, including searching for buried treasure guarded by demons, seeing visions in a "peep-stone" in his hat, and ancient treasures guarded by magic lizards.

--Mormon founder Joseph Smith's fascination with having sex with other men's wives and daughters, including girls as young as 14 year-old.

--The Mormon church's corrupt leadership group of old men who have systematically promoted racism and conspired to cover-up child molestation.

--All sorts of bizzare cult magic and crazy doctrine along the lines of the Jim Jones cult and the Waco cult.

I guess there always has to be opposition in all things. It's important to remember standing AGAINST something is not the same as standing FOR something.

teleport.com/~packham/
exmormon.org
Infidels
LDS4U: Beat the missionaries at their own game.
Utah Lighthouse Ministry

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)