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MATRIX - A Dossier for Every Person in Utah
jxs2151 writes: "According to the Deseret Morning News former Utah Gov. Mike Leavitt signed Utah's 2.4 million residents up for a pilot program that gathers dossiers on every single man, woman and child and didn't bother to tell anyone. According to the article MATRIX -- Multistate Anti-Terrorism Information Exchange '...cross-references government records from both public and private databases, putting together a dossier on individuals for use by law enforcement.' The state's homeland security specialist dismisses concerns: '...any data gleaned for Utah's participation in MATRIX is information already available to law enforcement.'
The Utah legislature is trying to figure out how to get the state out of the program but the question is how was the Governor able to enroll the -whole state- without anyone knowing?"
Pretty please?
Where's my Tin foil???
in the name of 'protecting freedom'
terrorism wins
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
and some people said the marix wasn't real
Can i see the dossiers on these?
FloodMT: crapflood Movab
Jeez...could they have picked a worse name to have sent the geeks into overdrive than Matrix?
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
Well there will definitly be some conspiracys floating around soon. I think it was all bush's doing ;)
So, this has really kinda raised a stink here in Utah, and despite the states Homeland Security specialist stating that all of the information is already available to law enforcement, one issue is that all of this information is not currently available in one place and that many simply object to government accumulating so much personal information. The other issue is that the problem with databases is that once they are created, they really cannot be destroyed. The information in them tends to propagate into other projects or products and is also often used for generation of revenues by selling information to certain corporations.
For instance, from the article: Searchable databases allow law enforcement agents to probe for people using Social Security numbers, dates of birth, addresses, property records, motor vehicle information and credit history. The information is collected by states and forwarded to a database in Florida, where a private company, Seisint Inc., builds and manages the database.
The fact that credit history is included and is documented along with these other aspects of identity and is run and managed by a private company is disturbing leading me to wonder what connections Gov. Leavitt might have with this company.
Finally, as noted in the article our current Gov., Olene Walker (she was Gov. Leavitt's assistant governor before he headed off to become a Bush appointee to head the Environmental Protection Agency), apparently knew absolutely nothing about the project. As governor, Leavitt should have been representing the people of Utah, but what is it that he has done here?
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
The information is collected by states and forwarded to a database in Florida, where a private company, Seisint Inc., builds and manages the database.
So what's to prevent this company from selling the information to the highest bidder? Glad I don't live in Utah...
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Private corporations have been selling our personal data to eachother since forever. I don't see why this is a big deal now.
The MATRIX has you
I've seen casual acronyms before, but this is getting silly: Multistate Anti-Terrorism Information Exchange as MATRIX? You mean MATIE? As in a little girl? Certainly not as cool as MATRIX...
I mean, why not just make a trip to the Temple instead?
Oh, yeah: the frogskins. Follow the frogskins.
sorry, we're at war with drugs and terrorism and a few other nouns. freedom and liberty doesn't matter when you are at "war"....
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
blog?
is somebody going to attach a turbine to George Orwell?
Just think of all the nuclear power stations that could be decommissioned as a result
"Smoking helps you lose weight - one lung at a time" -- A. E. Neumann
This just hit the news here in GA as well.
Here, it is the reverse situation. The governor (Sonny Perdue) has now ordered the state twice to *stop* participating in the Matrix program. The first order was ignored. I wonder if the second will go un-heeded as well?
how was the Governor able to enroll the -whole state- without anyone knowing?
Maybe he used to work for a cable company.
Please donate your spare CPU cycles to help fight cancer and other diseases
A long time ago in Europe, the government encroached on our personal freedoms. Then we came to America, started a free society, and kicked your asses.
Governor Imposes Stay on MATRIX
Governor ends Utah's roles in database
Matrix FOIA Request to Utah State Police
The MATRIX
Privacy Watch: Matrix
Matrix Updates
Matrix Raises a Stir
-kgj
"the question is how was the Governor able to enroll the -whole state- without anyone knowing?"
Easy, because the data was being collected in the first place. The whole system of legal protection of privacy (i.e. laws that say you're not allowed to use this data for this purpose) breaks down when the trusted custodians of data shits all over the public's trust. The only way to ensure privacy is to not collect the data in the first place. Not that that's ever going to happen.
Utah is now home of SCO, mormons, and now citizen dossiers. Why would anyone live there?
Just in case anyone wants to actually read what it's about before going off the deep end, they have a site:
http://www.iir.com/matrix/
[quote]The MATRIX project is implementing factual data analysis from existing data sources to integrate disparate data from many types of Web-enabled storage systems to identify, develop, and analyze terrorist activity and other crimes for investigative leads. This capability will facilitate integration and exchange of information within the participating states, including criminal history, driver license data, vehicle registration records, and incarceration/corrections records including digitized photographs, with significant amounts of public data record entries. Provision has been made for the inclusion of data sources from additional states, should expansion be authorized. The use of factual data analysis from existing data sources will save countless investigative hours and significantly improve the opportunity for successful conclusion of investigations.
Data Security Information submitted by a state may only be disseminated in accordance with restrictions and conditions placed on it by the submitting state, pursuant to the submitting state's laws and regulations. Information will be made available only to law enforcement agencies, and on a need-to-know and right-to-know basis. Data access permissions will be conditioned on the privileges of the user making the inquiry.[/quote]
...that there are no national ID numbers, right ? Without them it's impossible to track people, or something.
Oh, I can't help quoting you because everything that you said rings true
Because it won't do much good. We have alot of different groups of people here in this country, with alot of different beliefs as to how far "security" can go. We all have our own different ideas as to what is right and what is wrong and speaking as an american, most of us are too lazy or ignorant to care.
"what, dossier? well..does it make my tv go away?"
besides, most large scale protests end up with the police in riot gear forcing protesters into doing something they can get arrested for
your sins into me, oh my beautiful one.
Is it anything like SCMODS?
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
"freedom and liberty doesn't matter when you are at "war"...."
Hmm, interesting. So why exactly fight a war then? What is it to fight a war without a cause? And how is it that these causes suddenly don't matter when we start fighting for them? Shouldn't they be, oh i don't know, protected even more when people are attacking them?
this will solve all of life's problems...
What I'm most concerned about right now is WHICH ARE THE OTHER TWELVE STATES?
Don't see why that's a troll, personally. America has become that which it hated. Tragedy of the Grotesque.
We knew it would happen , eventually
Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
Here is what I expect to happen if this actually goes forward...
Lots of data will be collected about people's daily habits. That data somehow ends up in the hands of the Mormon church. They then start punishing members for things like buying coffee in stores, renting porn, not tithing a full 10%, and going to R rated movies. Then it gets leaked where all of this data came from.
Mormons are taught to support the Government. It will take quite a bit to get them to really fight against such a draconian intrusion into their lives. They tend to gravitate to authoritarianism as it is.
"Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
The Matrix Has You Neo
Keep the database. Make all information about government officials contained therein searchable to the public. Including Mr. Leavitt. May as well throw in Jackie and all the Leavittlings while we're at it.
Despite what you all think, the mormon religion does not condone plural marriage. If you take part in a plural marriage, you are excommunicated. That comment merely shows your ignorance and is not really funny at all.
"Wisdom is not a product of schooling but of the life-long attempt to acquire it." -Albert Einstein
Here in Europe, where we are actually trusted by our governments, we would never allow such encroachments on our personal freedoms.
hitler? muosolini? stalin? must have forgotten about all of those.
the the unequal distribution of wealth couppled with a growing fear of EVERYTHING lead to the 3rd and 4th world wars. taking place only 4 hours apart, it was determined that the usa struck first against russia and the middle east. someone over there aparently said that the USA's mother looked funny.
WW4 decided upon moments after the 3rd ended saw every country with balistic missle capabilities repeatadly launching on the us to once and forever end the threat of a rogue nation.
--END ACT 3 PLEASE TURN OVER TAPE --
You gotta be joking! In britain we are gonna soon have id cards, trackers in cars, and if you crae to have a look at legislation pushed though by our paranoid premiere blair, Ill think you find the british govt doesnt trust us, like us or give 2 fucks about us. Stands a chance the utah model will be sold to our Tone. Of course itll be at a cut price.. monogamy means less fields ;) Tony B
Is Florida any better? Supposedly there's half a dozen spammers in one Florida county alone. And MATRIX is being hosted there, which means that state is prolly enrolled in MATRIX also.
Throw the idiot who did this in a memory hole.
note: I am not advocating we physically harm the idiot responsible for this.
note: Neither am I saying that the bastard doesn't deserve it.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
I think maybe the parent post was being sarcastic.
I am pretty sure a grave mistake like that calls for resignation or impeachment of said governor. Anyone from Utah who can update us on what the governor had to say and about the possibility of him resigning on his own?
I think it was intended as a joke. Take a deep breath and relax man.
Peace
Tin Foil hats for everyone!!!
Utah again.
The information is collected by states and forwarded to a database in Florida, where a private company, Seisint Inc., builds and manages the database.
Now that we know that Seisint is compiling a database of all relevant information on *everyone* living in Utah, how long do we think it'll be before one of the many hackers/crackers (possibly sponsored by organized crime, then again equally likely to be doing it just for the kudos) breaks through their corporate security (cough smoke-and-mirrors, if they're like most other companies) and steals the identity of an entire state at once?
Of course " Utah was one of 13 states that hopped on board the pilot program last June -- funded with $12 million in federal grants. But since then, several states have pulled out of the project, citing privacy and financial concerns."
So we're not even talking about just one single state !
C'mon people - fame and fortune, kudos from the slashdot crowd, and your very own entry in the Guinness Book of Records.
I can just see it now Worlds Largest Simultaneous Identity Theft
Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
Well I am the king of everything and I say you are wrong. I shal bed one of my other queens tonight.
Well, Mr. Superiority, you've certainly proved you have the type of charisma to lead America into fighting this kind of invasion of privacy.
The general populus isn't as dumb as you think it is.
Boy am I happy to be a Canadian today. Where I live, in western Canada, our government doesn't give a flying fsck about us! They just think we grow pot, dig up oil, farm stuff, and get really really cold in the winter. They don't have a single good reason to make a database out of us. And hell, even if they did, it would run %7000 overbudget and not really work anyways! Oh wait... maybe they already did that last part...
Besides the fact that it seems like a rather large waste of money and time...wouldn't letting a private company access to all this information be, in essence, a bigger security risk than not doing this at all? A few disgruntled workers decide to delete a few people, or even better, steal their ID for credit cards to buy stuff. Or better yet, a disgruntled religious group who think mormons are the epitome of satan's shit decide to fuck with them and blow this entire company up, years after the govt. switched over from their records to this. It should be interesting to watch as the 2.4 million "Utahns" suddenly stop exsisting.
your sins into me, oh my beautiful one.
Pretty soon, President Putin will start lecturing President Bush on human rights issues...
I'd like to see the statistics on the frequency of a +5 first post. I checked for flying pigs, however it's overcast and I fear I have underestimated their altitude.
Is it just me, or is the government going out of its way to come up with the most idiotic names for all these programs? Seriously, even the names of some things send chills down your spine. I mean, honestly, do you want your government using a program called CARNIVORE on you? MATRIX? The Matrix has practically become a cultural icon with extremely negative connotations. What are these people thinking?
I have discovered a truly marvelous
I'll bet: It was attatched as a funded mandate to some rider on some unrelated bill that nobody bothered to actually read. Sort of like what Congress does at the last possible minute, every damn time. Especially when they *know* it was pulled from some other massively unpopular bill. In other words, not enough legislators RTFM'd let alone Joe Regular citizens.
C|N>K
And that is pretty much the answer to your question ;^)
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
OK people, if you're going to whine about someone else being wrong, then you should at least try to be accurate yourself.
Despite what you all think, the mormon religion does not condone plural marriage any longer.
That is , originally it was encouraged. Don't believe me, checkout The LDS/Mormon webpages on the subject
Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
And, as a side note, isn't it most interesting how the Prophet at the time that the people Utah of desired Statehood received a message from God that polygamy was now against His will, and that particular epiphany came shortly after the United States Congress told the Mormons that if they continued polygamy, they would be denied statehood? I know, silly me, but I found it interesting, anyway.
GPL made simple: What was my stuff is now our stuff. If you improve our stuff, please keep it our stuff.
May I suggest that Slashdot share the list of IPs used to post idiocies the likes of the parent post with the feds?
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
You are number six.
Doesn't mean it's right.
Consistently various governments seem to think this fusion of public and private databases is somehow going to answer a problem.
The problem is... the private databases they usually intend to integrate are crap. Some private audits of consumer credit databases turned up error rates of 70 percent. "Minor" errors like wrong country of birth, birthdates, identity, etc. One study had a identifing information error rate -- bad addresses, etc -- of 40%.
So completely separate from the debate of whether this is the right thing to do -- is the fact that what they're doing is braindead in the first place, creating a massive database with bad information.
On second thought... maybe it's better they do this, as it's going to almost immedicately kill the credibility of projects like this if it ever gets tested in court.
Actually, they came over (at first) to become rich. The first settlers were the second, third, fourth, and so on, sons of the wealthy. But since in England all inheritance went to the first son (and he then decided without contest who gets what) they could either join the church or the army after their father died. But, in New England, they could own land and become wealthy from selling whatever they found to the companies that financed their voyage. And in England, the companies that sent them over could become rich from selling that on the European market. The second wave of settlers (the Puritans) were the ones who came over because they could not practice in England anymore. Well, more to the point, they could not reform the English church to the way they wished. That is debatable however. But the fact remains that if they were successful in taking over the church they would not have tolerated other religions (as shown in how they ran their colonies where they did control the church).
So, to sum up, The U.S. was founded because of greed. Whether or not greed is necessarily bad is another debatable issue. I don't care either way, but the fact remains that this country was *not* founded on freedom, it was driven by the want of profit. Take that any way you will, I just prefer that people know the truth instead of some kindergarten fable.
this will solve all of life's problems...
Parent poster has got to be the biggest fag on Slashdot. And that's saying a lot. Obviously he's dying to be the giver for once.
Freedom comes in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the ammo box. And that's all I have to say about that.
In the UK such an idea would be blocked in the house of Lords, or perhaps Her Majesty would decline to sign the act of parliament for it...
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
The first one's always free and then you have to pay.
I thought Mormons weren't allowed to use computers...
What?
It's worse than you think. Seisint, the company behind Matrix, was founded by a guy who was implicated in a Bahamian drug smuggling ring back in the 80's.
To the bourgeois ruling class, it's all just a game now. They're just trying to see how ridiculous they can make things. I'm sure they're suprised themselves.
"Okay, we'll even name this one the Matrix."
"There's no way that'll work man! They had the movie and everything!"
"We already had Operation: Iraqi Freedom and the Patriot Act go through, you'll see."
(1 year later...)
"Holy shit! They didn't even protest once! Amazing."
I swear to god guys, there will be a security project called "Big Brother" or something similarly bizarre in the near future. The guys in charge have just grown bored of having endless money and material goods, and they've moved to something more exciting for them: seeing how tightly they can squeeze the litte folk.
Justice Warns Against Civil Rights Apathy
By GINA HOLLAND, Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK - Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg (news - web sites) said Thursday that people concerned about losing freedom to government anti-terrorism efforts should speak out.
The Supreme Court is taking up several terror-related cases this spring, including challenges to the government detention of terror suspects without legal rights.
Ginsburg, speaking to a group of women's rights lawyers, was asked if people's rights were in danger.
"On important issues, like the balance between liberty and security, if the public doesn't care, then the security side is going to overweigh the other," she said.
That would change, Ginsburg said, "if people come forward and say we are proud to live in the USA, a land that has been more free, and we want to keep it that way."
Ginsburg, who argued women's rights cases at the Supreme Court several decades before former President Clinton (news - web sites) named her to the court in 1993, said "an active public" made the difference in the victories of feminism.
Ginsburg, now 70 and one of the more liberal justices, won five of the six Supreme Court cases she argued. She was reunited Thursday with some of the clients she represented during an event held in her honor at the Association of the Bar of the City of New York.
"She was calling to our attention that work in women's rights, civil rights is under threat," said Lisalyn Jacobs, who handles government relations for the National Organization for Women (news - web sites)'s Legal Defense and Education Fund, which co-sponsored the event.
The Bush administration has been criticized by civil libertarians for some of its terror-fighting strategy, including the detentions of hundreds of foreigners at a military prison in Cuba and some U.S. citizens in America.
They are being held without charges or access to attorneys, something the government maintains is necessary for national security.
In April the Supreme Court will consider cases involving detainees in Cuba and America.
The court has refused to take up other cases stemming from the government's response to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, including the handling of immigrants swept up in the investigation.
___
On the Net:
Supreme Court: http://www.supremecourtus.gov/
Apparently the Gov. got a swift kick in the ass from the public and decided to "halt" the program so privacy concerns could be further studied: http://www.harktheherald.com/modules.php?op=modloa d&name=News&file=article&sid=13031
Look into the history of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". The reason we wound up in Utah in the first place was government suppression.
Also, It's painfully obvious that you haven't much of a clue how the Church discipline system works. "Punish" is defiantly the wrong word, as is "Draconian"
This looks and feels so much like all the FUD that gets spread.
P.S.
The only valid reason I can see why someone would dislike us as a people or church is because of our proselytizing. If you've ever run into some over zealous members or missionaries, I apologize ("Our Search for Happiness" explains this phenomenon quite well).
To have:
create table relationships { person1 int, person2, int, relationtype int};
and:
create table relationtype{ int id, name varchar(100)};
That way you'd keep the types of relationshps in check, be able to enumerate all of them (without using UNIQUE), etc.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I was about to post my thoughts about this, but all of a sudden there's this guy with something in his ear named Smith who keeps calling me Anderson...
we have people suing mcdonald's because they are fat
we have people suing tobacco companies because they listened to a commercial and thought it wouldn't hurt.
the general populus may not be dumb, but they sure are stupid
your sins into me, oh my beautiful one.
schroder? berlousconi? blair? don't care about "our freedoms", too.
Most of the Democratic candidates have spoken out vocally against extending the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. act. To contrast, George W. Bush recently advocated not only extending, but expanding the damn thing-- in his State of the Union speech, no less. (The applause you heard when he said "the PATRIOT act is due to expire soon" was not coming from the pro-Bush side of the room.)
If you believe there is no significant difference between the candidates on this issue, you're just plain nuts. I'm sorry your favorite candidate isn't in the race anymore, but if you keep equivocating and misrepresenting the situation, you're only going to be rewarded with PATRIOT Acts II, III, IV and V.
Dean never supported the patriot act, he is VEHEMENTLY opposed to it. Neither did some of the other candidates. Yes unfortunately kerry is the kind of BS artist that populates washington D.C. and looks like he's going to win, but don't group them all together.
Liberty.
I don't really get how someone can found a religion and then a hundred years later someone can say "Oops, this one little point, which was actualy a pretty big part of the religion is no longer valid, and in fact totally wrong."
It would be like the pope suddenly saying "never mind, Marry wasn't actually a virgin."
I can see how they could change the rules, but not the moral underpinnings.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Privacy Watch: Matrix
....
Matrix Updates
Matrix Raises a Stir
It gets worse -- the plot for Matrix Exploited will revolve around Neo's litigation over marketing rights to Matrix merchandise
-kgj
-kgj
Howard Dean was a governer when the Patriot Act was voted on, and didn't have a say on the matter one way or another.
:P
That said, I can understand wanting to vote for it at the time, we did need to figure out who was responsible for 9/11. Otoh, I would not have voted for something that lasted for 3 or 4 years, but rather had it come up for renewal after 6 months. Not that my vote (if I had it) would have made a diffrence, but at least I could say I didn't vote for it in the end
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Utahn N. 1. Person who lives in Utah. 2. Mindless Drone of the Mormon Church Be it I am Mormon still Utah is full of frelling morons. Must be why I like Salt Lake City its the only REASONABLE city in the entire state ( 50% Mormon). Not all Mormons are drones, just about 99.9999% of them. :-P
I have to say that I am absolutely outraged at what Gov. Leavitt has apparently done. I wasn't particularly happy with him over his stand on allowing the storage of nuclear waste in our state (something that apparently was a qualification for head of the Environmental Protection Agency).
IANAL, so I wonder - would something like this be grounds for some sort of class action lawsuit?
If it is, count me in.
It amazes me the things we in the US allow our government to do to us in the name of security:
If we the government keeps getting away with passing legislation like this, the terrorists win, and the government *becomes* the terrorists.
Insanity is a gradual process; don't rush it.
My bad...
this will solve all of life's problems...
That's the Amish.
Hey theres nothing wrong with Polygamy. It never should have been outlawed in the first place, being that it is a matter of religion. /Begin Rant
That being said, if it WAS legal Mormons would not be able to handle it. Most are just mindless drones chanting, "Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet", with no brain cells devoted to THINKING ON THERE OWN. /End Rant
There are a few of us Mormons who can think for ourselves, though not a lot...
Just wait till it slips out that the whole country has this "Matrix Database" thing going on. Oops, shouldnt'a said that.... Dubya's gonna kill me xDDD
Hello!?! That's some anti-mormon website. You want real info on the church goto www.lds.org.
Sorry my bullshit sensor overloaded.
Neo: What is the Matrix?
Trinity: The answer is out there, Neo, just RTFA!
Goatse: French is the best language to swear in. [stream of curses] It's like wiping your ass with silk.
The Homeland Security: I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I have been waiting for you. You have many questions and although the process has altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human, ergo some of my answers you will understand and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question maybe the most pertinent you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant.
"There is no teacher but the enemy."-Mazer Rackham
According to the Wikipedia :
So both of you are, in a sense, right.
For once, none of those are from Slashdot!
At least balance it out with a inside source: LDS FAQ
Just give everyone in Utah a membership at Orkut and require them to invite everyone they know (under the Patriot Act, of course).
one, two, one two like a duck
Slashdot, you might think about adding another section. Call it Empire America, how about Washington in shackles and muzzle as the icon.
Why do all these stories about the loss of freedoms in America remind me of every other dictatorship and oppressive regime?
Still remember what GIGO stands for? Google up "more people watch TV" and see.
...that gathers dossiers on every single man, woman and child and didn't bother to tell anyone.
good thing i'm not single.
The public will look at the evidence and proclaim the suspect guilty. The jury will look at the evidence and declare the suspect guilty. Then they'll congradulate the FBI on a job well done. All the while, the real culprit sits back and laughs since he stole the supplies from someone who bought them with cash. He didn't show as a suspect at all.
People look at the fouth amendment and assume it's there to keep the authorities from annoying you. They think it's okay for the authorities to run a search as long as the person being searched doesn't know about it. The thing is, the more people the authorities investigate, the more likely they are to turn up false positives. That may work wonders in picking out a scapegoat, but it won't help find the real criminal if the real criminal took even minimal precautions to stay off the list. The fourth amendment is supposed to do more than protect people from annoying searches. It is there to make sure the authorities do their job right.
mod parent down. it says the link is to an LDS webpage but it's anti-LDS. quite the opposite.
the grandparent poster wasaccurate him/herself.
parent is a troll, not informative.
And it's jokes like the original post that give people their misinformation about the mormon church. It's amazing what people think these days... and very ridiculous... just becuase of 'jokes' like the one above.
He did a little too much LDS at Berkeley in the 60's.
That's Bigboo TAY! TAY!
Novell, 7 National Parks, Olympic quality winter sports, and is one of the most internet connected states in the country- not to mention the central role the University of Utah played in the creation of the Internet... I don't live there anymore- but I surely miss the place.
piltar, the piltar man with the piltar, fuckin' the man!!!
Sing it!
They could have called it 'Kournikova' but government employees don't have enough imagination to make the description fith the acronym !
The business of paying heed to the congress of the United States as instructed to do so by God hisself, leads to all sorts of weirdnesses, not least amongst which would be the proposition that in some strange way, congress is telling God what's good and what's bad so that God can then relay the message to His (forget any thoughts of a female God, all you politically correct non gender biased folks, we're working with mormons here) flock of Chosen Ones that they may walk more straightforwardly upon the Righteous Path.
That this whole database deal is happening in Utah, somehow smells more than just a little connected up with the "prevailing religion" in that part of the world, to these nostrils.
Is it fascism yet?
From time to time the tree of liberty must be watered with the bullshit of paranoids.
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
I call bullshit..
The mormon leaders vary, but most will not "invite you over for dinner" or any other nicety. And they do care A TON about what you do. When I told my bishop I didn't think I believed in the whole Joseph Smith thing, he acted like I'd killed a busload of kids or something. If the mormon church were like you said, maybe I wouldn't hate it so much.
And, Mormons are taught to respect and unquestioningly obey authority. Look at people who disagree with churhc leaders, do they get taken to a movie? Nah, they get kicked out.
I'd be scared if the mormons got their hands on this information (and the govermnment here in Utah is pretty much an extension of the mormon church).
Don't get your magic underpants in a bunch
it's not just utah dumbass.
Utah built a thing called MATRIX
Dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb-dummmbbbb
They promise that they won't abuse it
Dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb-dummmbbbb
I can just hear my dad saying, when I vented my teenage gripes about our government, "If you don't like it here why don't you go live in Russia?"
I never wanted to live in Russia. I just wanted America to be the place it's supposed to be. I want American freedom to mean more than the freedom to continue shopping while our trusted leaders take care of everything.
Steps to fix the problem:
1) Impeach the governer, and sue him into the poorhouse.
2) Destroy the data.
3) Add a constitutional amendment preventing corporate and government data gathering on private citizens.
4) Never forget that they tried to do this.
5) Remember why we have the right to bear arms.
Who cares? Only the anti-religious can be trusted on religions. You know, religions are like sports, completely useless except at fueling hate and turning people into drooling morons.
Quoting from http://www1.seisint.com/products.html
: Accurint is Seisint's family of information products sold commercially to organizations with legitimate business uses throughout the United States. Accurint has the most in-depth information on U.S. individuals and businesses. The associative links, historical residential information, and other information, such as an individual's possible relatives and associates, are deeper and more comprehensive than other commercially available database systems presently on the market.
Using proprietary algorithms, compilation techniques, and retrieval technology to access data stores containing billions of records, Accurint's ability to deliver high-quality matches and find rates is unparalleled. Given a few pieces of information (e.g. a phonetically spelled name, the city of a previous address), Accurint can rapidly retrieve a complete and accurate picture of an individual or business.
Although IANAUSCitizen i'm terrified of companies like this one can gather/file and use as fit personal info about all kinds of people...If this is the future, i'm definately gonna quit whatever i do and run to the Hills..... LOL
Roses are red, violets are blue, most poems rhyme, but this one doesn't...
Bend over, I've heard Mormons take it in the ass regulary.
All the more reason for the Linux Thought Leader to "obliterate most of Utah, sco.com name servers and all."
"I might have made a tactical error in not going to a physician for 20 years." -- Warren Zevon
It's Agran, not Agron:
a gr an.aspd i/politi k/candidate.htmu rl=/92/2/opinion. asp
http://www.cityofirvine.org/council/bios/larry_
http://www.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de/staff/bertol
http://www.cjr.org/archives.asp?
I never heard of him, and I'm from Southern California, but his situation sounds like what's happening with Kucinich.
Here's an interesting article on the media-driven "money primary" for presidential candidates:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2085734/
This project was started by Hank Asher. He had to take his name off the company, because of his past. Following are links to info regarding this man. You tell me? Is this the guy we trust to secure this kind of information?
Florida's flawed "voter-cleansing" program
Old American Century google for more.
I dunno, when I look at the name I don't get MATRIX. I get MATIE, which is still kinda cool in a piratey-type of way.
maybe they could create the Advanced Hybrid Official Y-I can't think of a Y, but then it could be AHOY MATIE. and that would be MUCH cooler. even than MATRIX. which is pretty much played out.
Mormons claim to be Christians, but their theology, doctrines, practices, and beliefs are not.
Examples:
Mormons believe Jesus Christ is the spirit brother of Lucifer. The Bible teaches Lucifer is a fallen angel, and that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Mormons believe they are saved through works; entire books of the Bible (Galatians, Romans) teach against that principle.
Mormons believe there are many gods. The Bible is quite clear that is wrong.
So if you're going to trash a Mormonism, please go right ahead. But now you know that they are NOT Christians; if you're going to bash Christians, it's pointless to use Mormons as examples. The LDS Church uses words to sound Christian, they even claim to be so, but they are not.
Many similar points illustrate why the RCC is non-biblical, but that would be off-topic, so I won't go into that unless asked.
As mentioned in my rejected story sub from last week, several other states are already participating in MATRIX.
For more information, you can look at the MATRIX homepage, listen to an NPR program, read some newspaper columns, a findlaw article, and a politechbot writup.
The list of participating states can be found here.
Read, L
Its interesting that they decided to follow the law of the land; A law which was commanded before polygamy.
now your goverment can lock you up for no reason, and hold you for years AND track your every movement!
:-O
USA! USA! USA! USA!
BTW:everyone wants to move to america. america is the only place where people are free. amercians are stupid and fat...ooops that last one is ture
Your little rant about thinking would have more credence if you knew the difference between 'there' and 'their'. But whatever, this is slashdot, at least I didn't see a 'definately' or 'artical' yet...
Mormons believe Jesus Christ is the spirit brother of Lucifer. The Bible teaches Lucifer is a fallen angel, and that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Which part of that is contradictory?
Mormons believe they are saved through works; entire books of the Bible (Galatians, Romans) teach against that principle.
Where does it teach against that principle? If I'm not mistaken, we are saved through Faith AND Works. There's even a scripture in the bible that talks about that.
Mormons believe there are many gods. The Bible is quite clear that is wrong.
We only worship one God. The bible is quite clear that we only worship one God. And please explain in further detail what you mean by "believe there are many gods" so I know you know what you're talking about; because it's quite clear that you do not.
Definition of a Christian - One who believes in Christ
Mormons believe in Christ; therefore they are Christians. They also believe in the Bible, so all your arguments are not only innaccurate in the first place, they don't support your point to any extent.
According to the article MATRIX -- Multistate Anti-Terrorism Information Exchange '...cross-references government records from both public and private databases, putting together a dossier on individuals for use by law enforcement.' The state's homeland security specialist dismisses concerns: '...any data gleaned for Utah's participation in MATRIX is information already available to law enforcement.' The Utah legislature is trying to figure out how to get the state out of the program but the question is how was the Governor able to enroll the -whole state- without anyone knowing?"
For one thing, this sounds like something that deserves a referendum somewhere. I'm more than halfway tempted to wonder if the Governor's up for reelection this year and wanted something he could brag about.
What I don't understand is, if all of this information was previously available to law enforcement, why bother? The information was already out there for use. Granted, it probably took convincing a judge in order to get it, but this just puts up, unless I misunderstand, one big open file. Just which terrorist groups are out there putting the Mormon Tabernacle on their hit lists such that it justifies putting everyone in the state on record?
I renew my position that homeland security isn't about security of the homeland at all, but about job security for politicians who would otherwise be SOL.
"What's the use in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes?" --Fourth Doctor, "Robot"
it can happen in your state or mine.
See my other post to find a list of the participating states.
Read, L
You Americans are so fucked :)
Don't let this bother you though, you still live in the land of the free.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
I, for one, am just thrilled with Utah's participation in this program. Terrorism is such a major problem in Utah, and we as Utahns need to do our part in preventing it. As I am sure you are all aware terrorist have a major hatred against Mormons, and want to destroy the Mormon run state as quickly as possible. Many of us here in Utah believe that the 9/11 attacks were planned in Utah. That's serious business.
Also, Utah is such an ethnically diverse state terrorists from all nations have an easy time hiding amongst the extreamly large population.
There have also been roumers that the salt lake is used as a gigantic swimming pool to train terrorists on how to work in salty environments.
I am proud that our state is the first state to participate in this most important plan. I have been suspecting that my neighbors might be terrorists. The own lots of guns, they have several off road vehicals, and they talk funny. They have also been known to go "deer hunting" which as we all know is really terrorist trainning. I feel a bit safer knowing that the FBI will soon be paying them a visit once they open up their file.
yes thank you o reader of /. humour +5
-- Wherever you go, there you are. BB
yes, I was. And for what it's worth, a "war" is two armies fighting each other. There is no such thing as a war against a noun.
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
Yes! Mod the grandparent down, so nobody gets information that is not sanctioned by the Church. We need to figure out how to shut up those infidels.
What size are your boots?
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
It's worth a listen.
MATRIX is the product of the drug-running covert actors who brought us the Iran-Contra connection. Seisint is the data warehouse in Florida for these Matrix apps, started by Hank Asher. He also founded DataBase Technologies, which purged the 2000 Presidential election rolls of 57,000 voters, 95% in error, the majority of them Democrats. Prior to that, Asher flew drugs off Florida through the Bahamas for Iran-Contra. His boss was John Poindexter, director of the "doomed" federal TIA, the mother of all Matrices. A French webpage has the Seisint/DBT (translated to English) connection: Hank Asher. For extra points, Diebold's eVoting division has been run by another convicted Iran-Contra cocaine dealer.
Now the Matrix, after being rejected by Georgia for its unwarranted invasions of privacy, is making the rounds of the rest of the states which owe Bush Jr favors. Idaho governor Leavitt succeeds Governor Kempthorne, just named the previous Idaho governor, to head the EPA, as it abandons the penalty financing of SuperFund. Check your own state government for the favors it owes Bush Corp., before they sell you to the Bush cronies. Drug dealers, vote fixers, Big Brothers: these are the people we have given the power of the US government. Take a stand now, before you have nothing left to defend.
--
make install -not war
Cardinal Branch runs into the Pope's study, with its high domed ceilings and white graceful arches, terribly excited..."Calm yourself, my son...what is so important?" ...says JPP II to the wide-eyed Cardinal.
"Your Holiness!!! I have such amazing news...but it is perhaps a 'good news', 'bad news' thing, I'm not sure how to tell you!?"
"Good news first, Cardinal Branch....always good news first..." replies the Pope.
"Amazing!! Christ just called and He is back on Earth!!" replied the Cardinal..."That is good news! Praise mankind's future...and the bad?" implores the Pope...
"Bad news is....(gulp).... He called from Salt Lake City!!"
Oh man is this classic. I am just reading some of your other posts and this one is just very enlightening. You are attacking other people for their ignorance, racism, and bias and then showing your own ignorance by making a vast generalization (and a wrong one at that) about a religion you obviously know nothing about.
Try mormon.org.
The $4.50 "Comprehensive Report" includes "Address Summary, Others using SSN, Date/Locations where SSN Issued, Census Data, Bankruptcy Indicator, Property Indicator and Corporate Affiliations Indicator, Bankruptcy, UCC Filings, Corporate Affiliations, Driver's Licenses, Vehicle Registrations, Property, Merchant Vessels, FAA Pilots, FAA Aircraft, Professional Licenses, Florida Accidents, Voter Registration, Hunting/Fishing Permits, Concealed Weapons Permits, Associates, Relatives (3 Degrees), Neighbors, Criminal Convictions and Sexual Offenders." More advanced searches include arrest data, gun licenses, property ownership, Internet domain name ownership, and a "Patriot Act Search".
Order now, and get the facts on anyone.
Much of this information has been available for some time, but never before has it beeen assembled into one convenient package available to anyone at a low price. See product reviews, including "You can't hide from Accurint" and "No Place to Hide".
Now with XML support, a batch interface for bulk users, and 24 hour tech support!
If you have a problem with that, tough.
California, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Texas, and Utah.
So Texas must have dropped out before 6/03 when archive.org crawled the site.
The state information comes from the response to a Pennsylvania "sunshine law" request by the ACLU. The PDF is available from the ACLU site.
--vs
His comment was anti-Europe and pro-America (America as in America the idea). That will result in a mod smackdown faster than anything around here.
The matrix has you. And the funny thing is that, while I am reading this, I am watching "The Matrix". Hmmmm.....
I have gas, but my car uses petrol.
...because we already have in our official capacity snooped all that information seperately". So the fact that the USA already was a piecemeal police state, is the justification for making it a unified and offical one?
There is no longer any law, just legislation. There is no longer any law-enforcement - just enforcement. It is no longer possible to be a policeman, and also a good man. The law does not recognise rights; so, rights do not recognise the law. I hereby declare anarchy!
You can't do that. Florida is America's wang.
Does anyone see any similarities between the War On Drugs, the War on Terrorism, and the War on Communism?
We're going to spend hundreds of millions or billions of dollars, piss off the world as a whole, lose our civil rights, and many of us will lose our inalienable rights.
In the end nothing will have been accomplished but a short period of country-wide unity and a temporary popularity surge for a national leader who really does not deserve it.
Isnt there a data protection style act to let you view your own dossier? you have a right to view any data held on you (even internal memos) except in afew cases. Well atleast in the UK you do.
Given that most politicians are simply scum, would you really be surprised they would do this? im more surprised the information got out!
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
WTF? I guess I'm not the only one who occasionally gets a bad connection - you know, the kind where you think you've deleted something but it really isn't or you type in something but it doens't show so you type it in again. Or something.
Makes it kinda hard to follow.
Tell your friends, FOFs, random people on the street to vote Democrat. They stink in various other ways, but the last 3 years have confirmed that the Green "there is no difference btw the two parties" bullshit is clear: Republicans RULE. The Democrats GOVERN. If you want a theocracy lead by the mediocre vote for Boy Genius, else lets get America back.
If we allow that puppet and his masters another four years (they stole the fucking election anyway), the fix is in. Prepare to see an attempt to can the constitutional amendment banning more than 2 presidential terms. It might not help Bush as it couldn't make it through ratification in time, but if they can fully dominate the unthinking middle class and put a second puppet in power in 2008: watch and learn.
When they kick down your front door, how you gonna come?
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
Wow, everything in that post is so entirely wrong that its frightening.
Its amusing to note that most people are whining about their personal freedoms being attacked and blah blah, yet they have absolutely no qualms about attacking people because they don't understand their religion. Hitler would be proud of you.
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
What are the other states that are part of the pilot program?? The people deserve the right to know!! Moses:Let my people GOOOO!!!!!
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." - US Constitution, Amendment 4.
I think that's pretty solid grounds for a suit right there.
Polygamy is right when and only when commanded by the lord, as stated in Jacob(I think it was chapter 3.) The Lord probably decided it wasn't worth the legal problems at this time.
"We have got to make Stan understand the importance of voting, because he'll definitely vote for our guy." - South Park
I, for one, welcome my role as the leader of SCO's AND Utah's obliteration
Its James chapter 2
Your post was an excellent one and should be modde d way up.
orwell in 1984:
http://www.online-literature.com/view.php/1984/1 7? term=war
"In past ages, a war, almost by definition, was something that sooner or later came to an end, usually in unmistakable victory or defeat. In the past, also, war was one of the main instruments by which human societies were kept in touch with physical reality. All rulers in all ages have tried to impose a false view of the world upon their followers, but they could not afford to encourage any illusion that tended to impair military efficiency. So long as defeat meant the loss of independence, or some other result generally held to be undesirable, the precautions against defeat had to be serious. Physical facts could not be ignored. In philosophy, or religion, or ethics, or politics, two and two might make five, but when one was designing a gun or an aeroplane they had to make four. Inefficient nations were always conquered sooner or later, and the struggle for efficiency was inimical to illusions. Moreover, to be efficient it was necessary to be able to learn from the past, which meant having a fairly accurate idea of what had happened in the past. Newspapers and history books were, of course, always coloured and biased, but falsification of the kind that is practised today would have been impossible. War was a sure safeguard of sanity, and so far as the ruling classes were concerned it was probably the most important of all safeguards. While wars could be won or lost, no ruling class could be completely irresponsible.
But when war becomes literally continuous, it also ceases to be dangerous. When war is continuous there is no such thing as military necessity. Technical progress can cease and the most palpable facts can be denied or disregarded. As we have seen, researches that could be called scientific are still carried out for the purposes of war, but they are essentially a kind of daydreaming, and their failure to show results is not important. Efficiency, even military efficiency, is no longer needed. Nothing is efficient in Oceania except the Thought Police. Since each of the three super-states is unconquerable, each is in effect a separate universe within which almost any perversion of thought can be safely practised. Reality only exerts its pressure through the needs of everyday life -- the need to eat and drink, to get shelter and clothing, to avoid swallowing poison or stepping out of top-storey windows, and the like. Between life and death, and between physical pleasure and physical pain, there is still a distinction, but that is all. Cut off from contact with the outer world, and with the past, the citizen of Oceania is like a man in interstellar space, who has no way of knowing which direction is up and which is down. The rulers of such a state are absolute, as the Pharaohs or the Caesars could not be. They are obliged to prevent their followers from starving to death in numbers large enough to be inconvenient, and they are obliged to remain at the same low level of military technique as their rivals; but once that minimum is achieved, they can twist reality into whatever shape they choose.
The war, therefore, if we judge it by the standards of previous wars, is merely an imposture. It is like the battles between certain ruminant animals whose horns are set at such an angle that they are incapable of hurting one another. But though it is unreal it is not meaningless. It eats up the surplus of consumable goods, and it helps to preserve the special mental atmosphere that a hierarchical society needs. War, it will be seen, is now a purely internal affair. In the past, the ruling groups of all countries, although they might recognize their common interest and therefore limit the destructiveness of war, did fight against one another, and the victor always plundered the vanquished. In our own day they are not fighting against one another at all. The war is waged by each ruling group against its own subjects, and the object of t
Actually, that wasn't supposed to be just a convenient coincidence. The prophet at the time actually said that the church was to end the practice to avoid socio-political consequences that, I suppose, outweighed the benefits of continuing the practice.
I am a mormon, and as you can guess I am using a computer.
"We have got to make Stan understand the importance of voting, because he'll definitely vote for our guy." - South Park
OK, so there's a big database. As many have already pointed out, databases already exist. Trying to stamp out databases of personal information has about as much hope as outlawing pot and sharing music. Waste of time.
We need to shift the focus of the debate from whether or not the database exists to how it is used. I think we need a new Bill of Rights to protect us from inaccurate and misused information in ANY database.
People should be able to sue the hell out of a database provider who distributes inaccurate information, and the responsiblility for accuracy should rest on the provider, not on the poor slob being tracked.
In fact, maybe there OUGHT to be a government sponsored database, because then there would be a specific place to go check for inaccuracies, instead of trying to guess who's got what on you.
And there should be severe restrictions on the uses that can be made of the information. I don't care if the government knows I marched against the war, but I damn well don't expect to get my taxes audited as a result. It's way easier to enforce restrictions on the inappropriate use of information than it is on the simple collection of it.
And anyone using data about me from the database should be liable if they can't prove they're using it on me, not someone else. What if you could sue Macy's for opening a credit account in your name using your credit data if it wasn't really you?
Government doesn't have to be the enemy. This is a place where the power of government could be used to protect us. Of course, you'd have to have a government that cared.
--Hi. I'm in Portland and it's raining. This appears to be a permanent condition.
>>Mormons believe Jesus Christ is the spirit brother of Lucifer. The Bible teaches Lucifer is a fallen angel, and that Jesus Christ is Lord.
>Which part of that is contradictory?
Since Jesus is God, according to the doctrine of the Trinity, the Devil is then the brother of God, which makes him 'equal' in some sense, which is clearly not correct. If you read Revelations, the final battle of good & evil (after all the buildup, which is described over many chapters...) is described in two sentences (at least in my translation; point is it's quite short: after forces of evil are finally gathered, they're defeated just like that...)
Now then, Christian is a term that was first used at Antioch (an ancient city). It means "little Christ." The reason we don't follow Smith is because for a prophet, I can't name even one accurate prediction that he made.
Of the five witnesses who signed about the golden plates, I don't think we even end up with two. I remember one being excommunicated (another leader wanted his wift or something), someone recanting, someone who never actually saw the tablets, and someone who left to become a Methodist.
Thus, since Joseph Smith does not pass the tests we are instructed to use (in both Testaments) concerning new revelations, we do not accept his additions, we condemn them as heresy, and excommunicate those who practice them. We submit him to the same tests we do for anyone who thinks they're talking with God, whether that be Mohammad, Joseph Smith, or the schitzophrenic at the bus station, and none of those have passed the tests.
You want to show us some proof? Find me pre-Columbian evidence of some of the things Smith claimed the Native Americans had (we have the form letter from the Smithsonian, thanks--for those who haven't seen it, it says that they do not agree Book of Mormon, insofar as it relates to the pre-Columbian history of the Americas). Find me some accurate prophesies (I'll ignore the ones that just never came to pass for whatever reason; find me some that came true!). Find me a few golden tablets and explain why those pictures I saw are just inverted letters in the Latin & Greek alphabet with a few extra scratches & squiggles? And why they're so sloppy? Normal folks either have some kind of actual pattern, or the elements have a more definite shape. And they generally all fall on a more discernable line, rather than being scribbled all over a surface...
And hell, we know that languages can be made up *cough*Tolkein*cough* and that people can even do a far more convincing job... Of course, it would've helped to know more about languages... and history... Then again, it's good for us that they're not so convincing. I mean, look at all those folks who believe in crop circles now... I wonder if folks in a few thousand years will look at structures like the Hoover dam as 'magical' should they lose the knowledge of how they were constructed?
Mormons claim to be Christians, but their theology, doctrines, practices, and beliefs are not.
My imaginary sky-ghost can beat your imaginary sky-ghost because you deluded heathen don't know that eating shellfish or not mutilating newborn boys makes the sky-ghost really pissy!
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
Wow, I'm glad I'm not American. because Canada is soo much better. HAHAHAHA Yeah right!
Just one example of why we are sheep waiting to be fleeced.
Oh and another and and more and amazingly we even sign up for it.
Which part of 'spirit brother' do you not understand?
(This is a great blog! Spend some time there and learn about the wacko Mormon Church. Truly a bizarre chapter in American history.
As usual, the ex-members of a cult (yes, Mormonism is a cult) are the ones to talk to, since they have been on the inside and figured it out.
As is usual in other cults, Mormonism is simpy about founder Joseph Smith's desire to avoid honest work, make money, rule other people, and screw lots of women. He was a charismatic leader much like David Koresh. Some of the funny parts:
Joseph Smith joined the Masons, and copied all thier secret rituals. This is what mormons do in their "Temples" even today.
Joe Smith was a great storyteller and treasure hunter in his early days. He used a "peep-stone" (rock) in a hat to trick people into giving him money to locate buried treasure. He used his imagination adn this rock-in-hat to dictate the "Book of Mormon" to a secretary. (this kind of folk magic was popular in new england in the 1800's).
He had many polygamous "spiritual" wives (the youngest, Fannie Alger, was just 14), all a poorly kept secret to his first wife Emma. His usual M.O. was to send the husband away on a proseliting trip, and marry the wife in a secret ceremony, after which he took her to bed.
He owned a saloon attached to his house.
He was feared by the U.S. government because he had an army of 8,000 men at a time when the standing U.S. military was only 2,500 men.
Polygamy was openly practiced until the U.S. government threatened to withhold statehood for Utah, at which time a "revelation" from God was recieved which put an end to it.
Racism was openly practiced (no blacks could hold the "priesthood") until in 1978 the U.S. government threatened to withdraw the church's tax-free status, at which time a "revelation" from God was recieved which put an end to it.
Mormonism is a fascinating, disgusting, bizarre subject. I used to be one myself! (I'm feeling much better now) ;)
Visit the best Liberal Blog: DU
Christian is a term first used at Antioch, it is a term which means "little Christ." There was a time when they were known by several names (e.g. "followers of the Way" etc.).
The Bible has several tests for deciding whether a prophet is from God.
1) The prophesies they tell come true.
2) They don't preach of other gods.
I can't find any true prophesies from Joseph Smith. Most of what I've heard is debate over why the others never came to pass, for whatever reason...
I can't find any other indication of the Devil being the "brother" of God, since Jesus is God... or any indication that the devil is a god in his own right. Mankind may be a little below the angels, but God is above them...
Concerning the revelations Smith had themselves, the five folks who attest to the Book of Mormon are insufficient; I'm not even sure that two are left, since there was the fellow who left and became a Methodist (later preaching against Mormonism), the fellow who never actually saw the tablets, the fellow who was excommunicated in a dispute over polygamy (whose wife it was, this was back before the leader who wanted statehood from Utah got the revelation about not practicing it any more... ultimately a good thing I would think, but...) and my memory fails me about the other two, but you can feel free to research it online.
And I'm purposefully ignoring a number of other matters. I'm just waiting for some Mormon "prophet" to come along and decide he wants to play a game of "Lemmings" with his followers. And yes, I know that real lemmings don't jump off cliffs like that (see Snopes for more details), which is why I referred to the fun little puzzle game we all know.
Wonder if I'd get moderated flamebait for musing about the little 'bomb' lemmings?
Leave it to Utah.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
"Hey, everybody! the mormans has magic unda-wears!"
"I think this is really about George Orwell, if you know what I mean . . . (urbane chuckle)"
"Am I the only one who noticed that it spells MATRIX? Tee hee!"
"actually, i live here in utah, and the mormon church probably just instituted this so they could keep track of all of their wives"
"I just thought that I should inform you that the church today doesn't practice polygamy anymore. maybe u should learn to respect other people instead of reading anti-mormon websites. okay, yes i am a member"
"1984!!!!!"
"i HATE ALL MORMONS BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL CLOSED MINDED"
"Okay, well, IANAL, but is this legal? I mean, it seems like this is like Big Brother or something. Okay, you can mod me down if you want."
What, no Neo jokes?
Who comes up with these names? It's like they are just SCREAMING big brother.
Matrix? As in the thing that enslaved humanity and took away all freedom?
Someone needs to get slapped.
-- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
You can't say your Congressman's kid goes to the same schools, they don't. They go to very exclusive private schools. They have priveledged parking places, they ride in corporate jets to industry sponsored fund raisers in exotic locations, they are surrounded by people so far removed from the average American they could be from a different planet. The perks and the money start to skew their view of the world after a while. The people they socialize with, work with, and spend the most time with are not representative of your life. When I was there I called it being in the tank.
And you're definitely right about just complaining and not doing anything. You would be surprised the clout a few people working together have even in the insular world of the tank. The story I go back to is Omaha Beach in WWII.
The allied landing was going nowhere until a few survivors started going from man to man and encouraging them to just pick up a rifle and shoot back. Individually the effort was meaningless, but after a while the collective fire started to make a difference.
Don't worry about changing the world, just pick a word processor and start firing off polite and reasoned letters.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
However, you are correct that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, what Mormons (such as I) consider the mainstream, condemned polygamy. If you want to understand more, go to http://www.mormon.org.
In particular, if you would like a better understanding of the Church's position see What is the Church's position on polygamy?
But this sounds fake. A state like Utah, home to SCO, creating something stereotypically authoritarian, and calling it "Matrix." It actually reminds me of the "Homeland Security Cultural Bureau" or whatever that was called. Except it also reminds me of Total Information Awareness, which /wasn't/ a hoax.
Maybe governments will learn from these past examples and name things like this more mundanely in the future. Like "Constitutional End-User Registration and Customer Service Department," instead of "Civilian Tracking and Punishment Authorization System."
We're fighting the war for freedom! You'll understand that this means you'll have to give up your freedoms so we can win the war for freedom.
Boycott everything - they're all trying to fuck you one way or another
You are therefore PROPERTY of the government, serial number and all, just like any other government property.
So STOP USING THAT NUMBER for everything!
Damn people, get a clue, it's all over the internet if you bother to look and quit with the beer.
In Utah, eh?
Let's see here... BWJonah, BWJankowicz... ah.. here we go, BWJones' dossier:
*****
MATRIX program
BWJones-
Suspect individual. Member of suspect community 'slashdot.org'
*****
Let's make a note here- "Criticizes MATRIX program. On record questioning official government actions. Criticizes governor. IP logged. Prepare storage vat #77257383-B3123-304. Log all nueral transmissions. Monitor for contact with rebel forces."
---
WARNING:Slashdot karma not redeemable in the afterlife.
So what's to prevent this company from selling the information to the highest bidder?
What I want to know is this: What's to prevent said private company from moving their data processing operations offshore where they can do the work cheaper? In such a case, what's to prevent the government of that country, or other entities, from stopping by and getting a copy of the database(s)?
If I worked for a foreign government that wanted to 'compromise' a few US citizens for their intelligence program, what better way to select targets. There are many different possibile uses for that data by foreign interests that one could imagine.
America: Wake the fuck up! (Score:-1, Troll)
by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 31, @07:23PM (#8146965)
Please... Europe has never been "free", but until recently we here in the old country could aspire to going to america. Now, america is turning into prewar germany, and we've got no where to go. Stop it! before it's too late!
This AC got modded Troll. But I wanted to repost it.
I'll tell a little story. I read, not too long ago, a story written by a daughter of a German migrant. This women's parents left germany during/before the true rise of Hitler.
Now, for those who may have only thought of Nazis as Evil Ones(TM) in a cartoon manner, stop and consider their rise to power. There *was* wide-spread support for the Nazis. They won an election to take power -- Germans SUPPORTED the Nazis. The nation was in a state of euphoria, literally in love with the notion of their own greatness...
This women's parents left because they sensed something basic and unsettling was happening. They new what Germany was becoming and where it could lead.
Near the end of her article she spoke about the USA. Its hubris, its sense of infallibility and selfrighteousness. She wondered if she would have the strength and wisdom to recognize when the USA had reached this tipping point, she wondered if it was now... or would be soon.
As a foriegn observer (Canadian) I just want to tell you that this Matrix stuff is not a surprise. The USA (its government) is heading off on a very strange tangent. Just consider for a moment that the world watched -- with not a little public objection -- the USA invade and occupy two foriegn nations.... whatever you might think justified this act, please consider: The USA is actively invading other nations unprovoked*.
I want people to see what this AC is saying, because I agree. If you think you can sit back and reelect a Republicrat (again, as you have continuously for 100 years) and things will get better you're very wrong.
Let me lay it out, something is very wrong with the USA; its fat, angry, powerfull and violent. Your leaders think they world belongs to them -- and you citizens are sheep -- and we are all going to suffer immensly if something is not done to re-align the USA.
This Matrix stuff is nothing.
* the WTC crashes were criminal acts, the kind of behaviour that requires police, not armies... unless of course you are the kind of proto-fascist-jingoist-American I am worried about, who refuses to consider this reality....(and the article-author sees her country-men becoming)
About the three witnesses to the golden plates (Book of Mormon)--all three of them left the LDS church for a time. One returned, two did not. Each of them, pointedly, to the day they died, made it clear that even though they had a falling out with the leadership of the church or a disagreement on doctrinal principles, they could never recant their testimony that they had seen the golden plates. They were very clear on that point. Leaving the church and denying their testimony are two very different things. What more forceful testimony could you have than to have someone stick to their testiomony who has nothing to gain, and plenty of spite against a church they once participated in? Still they all stuck to their testimonies--they saw the plates.
Hello!?! That's some anti-mormon website. You want real info on the church goto www.lds.org.
Slashdot? That's some anti-SCO website. You want real info on the company goto www.sco.com.
I am Sartre of the Borg. Existence is futile.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Yeah, you summed it up pretty well.
Many of the so called "fundamentalist" Mormon sects denounce the main Mormon church because they banned polygamy only to become a state, and they claim those who claim that God told them that polygamy was wrong are liars.
Actually, there are many Mormons practicing plural marriage. Now, in most (maybe all, I'm not really sure) states, polygamy is illegal. So, they get married through the church, but not officially with the government, and then they are able to collect welfare with all of the kids that they have to these wives. Kind of sad that our welfare system gets ripped off in such a way. Literally millions of dollars are lost to this each year.
hey!
> can't find any true prophesies from Joseph Smith.
You obviously haven't looked then. If you read his writings, you can find many. Everything from the civil war, to his own martyrdom.
>five folks who attest to the Book of Mormon are insufficient;
11, besides Joseph Smith Jr.
and why is that insufficient, because you weren't invited? If you read the bible, it says that merely two to three are required.
Also, about the witnesses, yes, some didn't want to agree with the leaders, but not a single one would ever go back on their word about the plates, and their translation. At all.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
What does "believe in christ" mean to you? It doesn't mean believing he exists - that's pretty much a no-brainer for everyone outside of the belligerent left-wing anti-historicist set. As to whether he is the Son of God, a Person of God, who lived a perfect life so he could die in the place of humanity - that's what a Christian believes. If Jesus is Satan's brother, then either Satan is also God or Jesus is not.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Well, double-dumbass on you!
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Glad I don't live in Utah...
g an
Or in:
Connecticut
New York
Pennsylvania
Ohio
Georgia
Florida
Michi
(according to the MATRIX website)
Plus aparently 5 more according to the article quoting 13 particpating states.
-blar
The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room.
Neo: Right now, we're inside a computer program?
Morpheus: Is it really so hard to believe?
What is the matrix? Control. It was built to keep us under control...
The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. When you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, lawyers, carpenters, the very minds of the people...
But of course we must honor the best quotes from each of the three movies:
The Matrix:
Context: Morpheus jumps a massive gap between two skyscrapers
Neo: Woah.
Reloaded:
Context: Neo throws a smith out of the battle, where he lands, hard.
Smith: More!
More context: (More smiths charge in)
Revolutions:
Context: Neo runs out of the train station, off to the left, and we see him come back into the train station on the right.
Neo: Shit!
That sums up the three movies, and also the main reactions that this MATRIX thing seems to be inspired by:
Woah!
More!!
Shit!!!
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Since Jesus is God, according to the doctrine of the Trinity, the Devil is then the brother of God, which makes him 'equal' in some sense,
so, the infant is the equal of the big brother? at, say running? not a chance. Your logic is flawed. You could make an argument that they were at one time equal, but went in different ways. Think stunted pine tree next to it's genitic brother who grew normally. Reread Revelations, lucifer rebelled and was cast out, he fell, and no longer even has the ability to become equal. This whole question is easier to understand when you know that we all are spiritual brothers and sisters, Christ and Lucifer, Gandi and Hitler, Paul and Pilate, you and me. . . You may not agree with this, but seen with this light, there is nothing contradictory about Christ and Lucifer being brothers. Oh, the doctrine of the trinity is based on the greek philosophers, was adopted by the christians in the nician (sp?) creed ~300AD. was not taught by any of the apostles.
Five witnesses? there were no five witnesses, there were three who were shown the plates by an angel, and eight who were shown the plates by Joseph Smith himself. You are ignorant of the facts, both the number and the fact that none of them recanted their witness, dispite several of these witnesses leaving the church. And not over wives either.
You want to show us some proof? Find me pre-Columbian evidence of some of the things Smith claimed the Native Americans had
Ok, when the book of mormon was published, The Mayan ruins were unknown, and even Cortez and the Aztecs were forgotten history. The book of mormon talks about multiple large cities at a time when the 'experts' counted all natives as savages incapable of such. Add to this the fact that the timeframe the book of mormon (BoM) gives to the jaredite people matches the olmec history to within a hundred years or so. (neither the arch. evidence nor the BoM is any more specific than this anyway) Unfortunately the common idea among mormons that the 'land north' and the 'land south' in the BoM were north and south america (!!!) does not help our (yes IAAM) cause, as that is NOT supported by the arch. evidence at all. (the BoM does not really either but... people are stupid, even some mormons) The Smithsonian? yea, imagine this 'Yup the BoM seems correct, there is no way short of revelation Smith could have known this, he must be a prophet, but we are not joning anyway, we like our own incorrect religions too much. - the Smithsonian' ---- Whatever.
The pictures you saw were drawn by artists who never saw the plates, and probably never read the descriptions of them beyond 'gold plates'... there are no photo's
Other prophicies? Try the Civil war, the fact that it would start in SC, and that it would hurt the Missouri / Kansas area the most (Bloody Kansas lasted the whole war, almost destroyed the area) and that the mormons would end up in the rocky mountians? (he died before they left for Utah)
I don't expect that I convinced anyone here, but I hope I pointed out enough to let people see that the parent is an ignorant troll.
(I'd not post AC but I haven't signed up yet)
>I'd be scared if the mormons got their hands on this information (and the govermnment here in Utah is pretty much an extension of the mormon church).
Bull.
The LDS church enforces a strict policy of keeping it's hands out of politics like that. It will not endorse any politician over another. They may support individual laws, but they cannot pull any strings, because they don't have them.
And besides, every politician in Utah knows they have an aclu rep dedicated to watching them. They even breath something that smells "mormon" and they have a lawsuit on their hands. Heck one non-lds representative recently held a meeting with an LDS church leader, asking for their opinion on an alchohol law he was preparing. He was taken to court because he catered to a special interest! The fact that he also met with leaders of other community organizations didnt' matter. And the fact that he wanted to get the opinion of the largest religious demographic in his area couldnt' be useful at all!
>And, Mormons are taught to respect and unquestioningly obey authority. Look at people who disagree with churhc leaders, do they get taken to a movie? Nah, they get kicked out.
Unquestioningly? no, even the youngest kid is taught what are commonly referred to as the "seminary answers". Search, Ponder, Pray. Not accpt blindly. Everybody is told nonstop, to find out for themselves.
If you do not believe in something, well then, you that is your decision. If you do something spcifically against the rules, you have to repent. If it's a serious enough thing, then yes, as a last resort, your are removed.
Christ and Jesus do not mean the same thing. Christ is the title given to Jesus. If you believe in Christ, you believe that Jesus was the son of God on the earth.
Fuck you, your 9 wives, and your imaginary friend. Grow a brain.
Is having an imaginary friend ignorant?
Gee...
Why is it that anytime a posted article that contains the word Utah or SCO or Novell people automatically assume the Mormons are behind it. Sure, some Mormon folk may be working at these places, but I am sick of people bashing the LDS Church anytime the state of Utah is mentioned or implied in an article.
It's all a big waste of time (like this post, too).
The article is about something serious. A supposedly Republican/Conservative governor signed my entire state up for this MATRIX thing... I am none-too-happy about this one. It seems like all the conservatives have lost any spines they said they had and turned into tax and spend liberals and big government, big-brother types.
I am quite happy that he's left Utah for the EPA. He's always been a shifty character in my IMHO.
Please stick to the topic at hand. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints had nothing to do with the MATRIX. The MATRIX is very intrusive. Mormon-bashing is very stupid and a waste of typing, talking, thinking, etc.
Good night and have a pleasant tomorrow. - SNL Weekend Update
>Actually, there are many Mormons practicing plural marriage
Umm, no actually. There are people practicing illegal poligamy, but the church does not sanction it. Quite the opposite actually. That is something the church has zero tolerance for.
Except that it was common place in Samuel's time to have concubines and multiple wives... so why again do so many Christian sects have a problem with it now?
Interesting, so tell me, have you taken your blood offerings to the levites recently? Better be careful, by typing that message you might have done too much work for the sabbath.
No, God is unchanging. He has caused laws to be changed for man, depending on their ability to act, as well as the need. If you look at the historical reasons for why the LDS practiced poligamy, it's also easy to see why there was a reason to stop when they did.
The LDS church enforces a strict policy of keeping it's hands out of politics like that. It will not endorse any politician over another. They may support individual laws, but they cannot pull any strings, because they don't have them
U S.UT.Prov.shtml
Yea... How about this? http://www.mormonstoday.com/020111/T2UTAlcohol01.
It is also why Boyer Co. can't get the Gateway rezoned to allow a place like Target in, until the LDS church approves of it.
How about the church getting most local governments to reschedule meetings from Monday night?
I could go on... They may officially deny having any political power, but anyone who has lived in Utah knows otherwise. Most Utah politicians are Mormons and rarely stray from the LDS church's position on things anyway.
Unquestioningly? no, even the youngest kid is taught what are commonly referred to as the "seminary answers". Search, Ponder, Pray. Not accpt blindly. Everybody is told nonstop, to find out for themselves.
And how many times has said kid been told "Follow the prophet"? You can pray all you want, but if what you supposedly get in return is contrary to what a leader says, then you must have prayed wrong. If I were still a mormon and prayed about, say, drinking alchohol and God told me it was ok to do so, I would be punished. Likewise, if I challenged the authority of the leadership or questioned openly things they had said, I would be punished also. Many people have been kicked out of the church for questioning what the leaders have said.
Whoa whoa whoa... because I'm tired and don't want to respond with a huge post, I'll nail the main points.
;-)
-Which branch of the Catholic church do you follow? Protestant? Baptist? What, you mean to say those aren't branches of the Catholic church? Much the way the Catholic church splintered, there were those in the church who split off into their own groups, thus completely breaking off from the LDS church. They are not a branch and shouldn't be considered part of the LDS church.
-For questions on polygamy inside the LDS religion, read the Book of Mormon, read Doctrine & Covenants, and then pray about it. That's a Mormon's answer for anything.
>Mormons believe Jesus Christ is the spirit brother of Lucifer. The Bible teaches Lucifer is a fallen angel, and that Jesus Christ is Lord.
l
http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,791-1,00.htm
>Mormons believe they are saved through works; entire books of the Bible (Galatians, Romans) teach against that principle.
that would be Faith and works. Big difference. And the book do not teach against works, they talk about the importance of faith. Just like they teach about the importance of works. "Faith without works is dead" is a quote that pretty much sums that up.
>Mormons believe there are many gods.
Read the above link for what we actually believe. We have one Father in heaven.
> But now you know that they are NOT Christians;
Do please explain.
http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1
#1, WE abelieve in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
Yeah, that doesnt' sound Christian at all
>The LDS Church uses words to sound Christian, they even claim to be so, but they are not.
Now that *really* doesn't make sense. We say we aren't, but we can't be. We must all be lying hunh? So when we say we worship our heavenly Father, We believe in the Atonement of Christ, and in the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Do tell, what am I really saying? Are these all magical codewords or something?
"...mormons."
"...the MATRIX!"
"1984!!!!"
All rights reserved. All wrongs reversed.
The practise continues and is commonplace. They don't legally get married but they have many "wives" who live in different residences and the male takes turns "visiting" the other wives. Frequently all the residences are on the same property of a small enclave/town. These wives usually pop out a kid once a year too. I know more then one person who has over 20 children.
Disgusting if you ask me.
War is necrophilia.
>if Jesus is Satan's brother, then either Satan is also God or Jesus is not.
*or*, there is a belief in what happened before this earth, and that satan is, as described in the bible, a fallen angel. We are all children of God, and Satan was one too. He fell, and took his followers. Christ however offered to be the sacrifice needed for the Fathers plan. He made the perfect sacrifice, so that we may be saved. Satan, as us, was our brother, but fell from glory.
http://scriptures.lds.org/james/2 for those who actually want to read without leaving the screen :)
The whole chapter is important, giving a great example, which is most notably, summed up in verse 24, and 26.
Moral: you need faith. And the sign of truly having faith, is acting upon the principles you have faith in. Otherwise it is for naught. If you don't exercise your faith, then you really dont' have any.
The key to the 'privacy' is the fact that it took effort and expense so only parties with a vested interest or valid enough reason to seek someone would put forth the capital. Making all the information available for a quick 14.95 five minute search opens it up for abuse. It is the difference between $.49 a stamp per spam in the physical mail world (in my country anyways) to the fraction of a penny per message in the digital world. With such a low cost of entry every highschool newspaper will be digging up dirt and making life a good deal more annoying.
asdf
is that they can only take lives but it's dictators and laws secretly passed that takes freedom.
Sure you could argue that it's a freedom to live but what's the point of living if you're being watched all the time? In the words of a famous Scottish leader in a film: You can take our lives but you will never take our freedom.
Nixon tried to use IRS data against political enemies. More often than not, the Civil Service level IRS employees found ways to stifle his efforts. Things like "Sorry sir, I can't seem to find the file for Abbie Hoffman. Check back in a couple days.
Matrix removes that level of human review.
Ben Masel: 51,282 votes for US Senate in the Wisconsin Democratic Primary
Does anyone else think the irony of a similarity between The Matrix, a society completely entrapped by the governing powers (machines), and the name of this act (MATRIX), which makes that same entrapment all the more possible seem kind of odd to anyone else? Surely the politicians realized that this would draw a very definite parallel in the minds of most people, particularly those that are fans of the film.
Maybe they did it to discredit the voices of those that protest the act? "Oh, they're just geeks with a Matrix obsession, and are overreacting because they're all anarchists."
Otherwise, why else name it MATRIX? You'd think they'd want to avoid anhy sort of association with complete thought control. Right?
Or is this simply a sign of how incredibly subdued the average citizen is already?
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
There's more than one Mormon church, however. The most popular does not allow it, but ALL of the others do.
hey!
Is plural Marriage kinda like Bigomy?
SCO flames, religious flames, Matrix flames, Big Brother flames ... everything is on topic here!
The LDS Church may no longer condone multiple marriage. The "Book Of Mormon" does not forbid it. There are still communities of polygamists in Utah.
That comment merely shows your ignorance and is not really funny at all.
On the contrary, that comment showed an accurate knowledge of history and IMO was very funny.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I have only one problem with your comment that the response to the WTC crashes needed police and not armies. How do you capture someone with a police force in another country that hates your guts, wants you to die, and is aiding the people who want to kill you? The US government had asked the Taliban many times over about 5 years to give up Osama, but the refused. Do you actually think the world would have been better off if the US response to the WTC attack was to just yell at the people who caused it?
Another problem is you are grouping two wars that had drastically different response in world public opinion. While there were a lot of protests against the war with Iraq, there were very few people saying we should not attack Afghanistan becuase nearly everyone agreed with us.
Now, I'm not saying this MATRIX stuff/Patriot Act/Assaults of civil liberties is a good idea. In fact, the quicker it dies, the better.
I think the real problem with the US is that our presidential/senate candidates cater to much to the extremes to get elected, which makes it much harder to take a more moderate position.
Plus, nearly all third party candidates take some sort of extreme position on an issue, that even if the rest of their platform makes sense, they would just be unelectable.
Oh, and I was just wondering. How is another country/group of countries in today's global world going to "realign" the US. They aren't, because the only real way to create change in a country is to have the citizens make the change. So, US citizens above 18, VOTE, or nothing will change.
Umm, no actually. There are people practicing illegal poligamy, but the church does not sanction it. Quite the opposite actually. That is something the church has zero tolerance for.
Perhaps he was not clear enough in his statement. There are people who call themselves Mormons, who read the Book of Mormon, and who follow the older tenets of the Mormon church who practice polygamy.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
And, as a side note, isn't it most interesting how the Prophet at the time that the people Utah of desired Statehood received a message from God that polygamy was now against His will, and that particular epiphany came shortly after the United States Congress told the Mormons that if they continued polygamy, they would be denied statehood?
I went to high school with a girl who is a mormon. The mormon religion forbids alcohol. So, I asked her if it's a sin to drink alcohol, why did Jesus turn water into wine and give it to people?
She didn't know. She went and asked the elders of her local church. The answer they sent her back with was that at the time, there may not have been enough potable water and it would have been safer to drink wine. Since we now have better access to potable water, it is a sin to drink alcohol.
If Jesus was the son of God. WHY THE HELL COULDN'T HE HAVE JUST MADE THE WATER SAFE?
I never got an answer to that question.
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
mod up as funny please!!!
...and happily I ain't. :-)
What about throwing in Utah as a bonus when Texas becomes independent again as it should? Leaves the remaining US a better place
So, US citizens above 18, VOTE, or nothing will change.
And then watch as a Diebold voting machine counts your vote as a vote for Bush.
If you come to Slashdot for the truth on SCO, that is truly stupid. You want to get the truth on SCO you go to the source, which is the court system. Unfortunately, where religion is involved there are no objective third parties. Posting a link to a misleading ant-mormon site is not going to win any arguments.
Sorry my bullshit sensor overloaded.
"The Utah legislature is trying to figure out how to get the state out of the program but the question is how was the Governor able to enroll the -whole state- without anyone knowing?"
Well d'uh. Never heard of an opt-out list?
Interestingly enough about this list is that PA, home of Homeland Security Lord, Tom Ridge, has had a program just like this before they signed into MATRIX.
It's called JNet and it was one of the earliest such systems built in the US for law enforcement.
So not only does MATRIX have you, but now JNet too.
The big issue for me is that law enforcement is now getting this data without having to use a warrant. They used to have to get a warrant to check public sources of data. This made sense, because they have more authority and power than, say, a private investigator. But systems like MATRIX and JNet remove the necessity of getting a warrant, which removes judicial overview from the process, and keeps police searches of your records more secret.
That's what I don't like.
Yeah, whatever. I know it doesn't seem possible to you, but there is a lot you haven't been told. All I can say is that the internet is your friend. Use it to find out more. I know I won't change your mind, but I wish you luck. Remember: "One man's conspiracy theory is another man's bussiness plan."
Here is a great quote:
BTW, Here is the definition of cult. I think the term is very appropriate, given the devotion of Mormons to their "authoritarian charismatic" Prophet.
Visit the best Liberal Blog: DU
But, please, feel free to continue to go after Scientology.
I guess the points I'm making are:
-
There was a really cool upside to this system. It really could have been a benefit to the doctors and patients in providing them better care. It could, and also would, have been used to deny care to cuts costs.
-
Corporations generally do not care about data security until the lack of said security jeapordizes their bottom line or places them at legal risk.
-
If the system ever DID make it into production, the information contained within could have easily been made available to the governement and/or highest bidder -- as is the case with the company running the MATRIX system.
The way I see it is that the benefits don't outway the risks. Just because we can doesn't mean we should.No, you should not consider the point proven. It is proper to consider that there is not enough evidence, however. See Argumentum ad Ignorantiam.
that a fundamentalism-soaked White House would convince the governor of a state with another, yet totally different, fundamentalist religion to spearhead this millennium's new "Domesday Book (American Edition)".
the pledge by congress to keep Census data private and out of the hands of law enforcement officals was any good.
Then ask youself if The PATRIOT ACT, a law hastily passed by congress and signed by the president BEFORE THE ACT WAS EMBROSSED, will treat all Americans any better than FDR and the FBI treated Japanese American.
Then think about the RICO law, designed to prevent Mafia gangsters from using their ill-gotten gain to fight prosecution. When it was passed congress promised it would only be used against the Mafia. Now, several decades later, it is used over 10,000 times a year against ordinary citizens. The most common use of RICO today is by local police departments using jail-house snitches as a pretext to steal private property and fence it (sell is what rightful owners do, fence is what thieves do) in order to supplement their budgets and fund purchase of items too costly for local budgets. RICO declares property 'guilty' so even if the owners later prove their innocence or prove a case of mistaken identity, the police can and usually do keep the property.
When the cops become robbers who can YOU go to for protection?
When the DOJ sides with the Robber Barrons and the Courts become their hand puppets where can YOU seek judical relief?
When Congress sells its soul to the highest bidder, repeals the Bill of Rights, sells off trades and patents, votes itself a retirement package equal to its salary and with 100% free health care, and considers the office an inheritable birthright, who do YOU vote for?
Plainly, WE deserve the corruption WE tolerate.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
..Under Color of Authority".
It's good for a ten-year stretch in Leavenworth. Now you just need a prosecutor in Utah with the guts to file the suit in Federal court.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
You want to get the truth on SCO you go to the source, which is the court system. Unfortunately, where religion is involved there are no objective third parties. Posting a link to a misleading ant-mormon site is not going to win any arguments.
If you think the court system is an "objective third party," you have more faith in it than I do. The court system is designed so that people with differing opinions on an issue can present their arguments, and a jury of opinionated citizens and an opinionated judge decide on it. The idea is not that this exercise infallibly arrives at "objective truth," but that some sort of consensus can be arrived at from among the various subjective interpretations.
I see no reason why discussions of religion should be any different. If you only hear the official story told by members and leaders of the religion itself, you won't hear anything they don't want you to hear. Unless you listen to people critical of the religion (including many former members), you'll never be able to make an informed decision.
I am Sartre of the Borg. Existence is futile.
do you really think that anything less than the American militray would be able to succeed in catching all of those who are responsible, and eliminating future threats?
9/11 was a wake-up call to us that these people pose a real threat to us, and we need to eliminate it as fast as possible. I bet that if another attack comes along soon, Hillary Clinton will be on TV within minutes criticizing GW for not doing enough, along with the socialists like Kerry and Edwards.
I also don't think that refering to them as "crashes" is really right. The planed were used as missiles by the terrorists, and they hit their intended targets.
Terrorism has also changed what we need to view as a "military act" Even though the terrorists are not an official military belonging to a recognized country, there is little doubt that they are organized and in some ways have the capabilities of a military. Underestimating them would be foolish.
I think that most people see the problems with the patriot act, and I hope that some day it can be done away with. For now, it is absolutely necessary, and I do support the expansion of it if that is what our leaders decide is necessary. It is stupid to think that Bush is out to get you. Bush actually cares about America, and I think that you will see come November that most others in this country realize that too.
There is no "Mormon relgion". Their religion is Christianity, and their sect/denomination is "Mormon" or LDS. Mormons are Christians, despite what some other Christians might say, as are Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, all Protestant demoninations, the various Orthodox groups, Satanists, and a lot of the early Druidic groups (though I wouldn't say the ADF is), and probably a lot of other small groups that I'm missing. If you believe in the god Jehovah, you're a Judeo/Christian. If you believe that Jesus was the "son of God", in any form, you're a Christian.
http://www.iir.com/matrix/
Utah
Michigan
Ohio
New York
Connecticut
Pennsylvania
Georgia
Florida
Once the information is out, it's inpossible to get the genie back in the bottle. That's why this fight needs to be about collecting the data in the first place.
What happened before ? See this work by Steven Brust.
Brust noticed that nobody ever talked about Lucifer's ethics and went from there. It's a very nice, if straightforward, story dealing with the rise of the conflict between the individual and the group with an emphasis on 'for the the good of the many some must sacrifice" (or be sacrificed).
Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
They only stopped because the laws in the US were changed- for another 2 decades were spent by many of these men in Mexico, which is why there are 'colonies' down there.
The second the law changes again, they'll be back to doing it. And in heaven, they believe it is still done.
The US government had asked the Taliban many times over about 5 years to give up Osama
And Taliban repeatedly agreed to do it, as long as the trials would be held not in America, but somewhere else (like Western Europe, Arab countries, etc.). A pretty reasonable request, if you ask me.
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
I will have to remember that one ! For bonus points, suggest that creating pure water, with it's very simple molecular structure, should be much easier than creating wine with its enormously complex chemical nature. Of course, we are in 'miracle country' here and logic like that will only confuse the issue...
Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
The biggest problem with people is that they suck at math.
Sharks kill more people than terrorists do. Cars kill tens of times more people than terrorists do. Smoking kills hundreds of times more people than terrorists do. Cancer and heart desease kill thousands of times more people than terrorists do. But THEY do not show those dead people on TV, and so YOU believe that those deaths do not happen.
Please, check out this anti-Bush ad to see exactly what I am talking about.
Free your mind. Learn the math. Fight the Matrix.
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
I can just hear my dad saying, when I vented my teenage gripes about our government, "If you don't like it here why don't you go live in Russia?"
You should have told him "because in Soviet Russia, TV watches YOU!" and stuff like that, make up a new one for every artc...er...teenage grip you had at the moment.
I'm sure he would have been delighted. ; )
You can't take the sky from me...
> The USA is actively invading other nations unprovoked
I am a Canadian too, and neither invasion was unprovoked unless you hold to that old absurd notion that "other countries internal affairs are none of our business." If that were true, we could just ignore whatever happens in places like Rwanda by saying, hey, it's none of our business. What happens to women and children on the other side of the world matters. Fundamental human rights are by definition, fundamenta.
I'm ever so happy that Al Qaida decided to hole up in the one country that I would have supported invading long before 9/11 - Afghanistan and it's Taliban regieme.
And it's merely a damn shame that no-one had the guts to do in 91 what the US finally got around to doing last year wrt Sadaam.
I'm not happy at all that the west (mostly the US) dropped down to the Soviet's level in trying to "contain" them... and I completely understand what you're trying to get at in reminding us that the Nazi regieme *was* popularly supported. But don't start mixing that crap in with the notion that we should just bury our heads in the sand and let places like Afghanistan and Iraq/the-middle-east rot in their own feces.
> the WTC crashes were criminal acts
This is an absurd redirection. World War II was a criminal act, but you'd have to be an idiot to think that we could just sic Interpol on them and have things work out. The world is much more complicated and is not black and white.
"Months ago, the prime minister of Estonia told President Bush that he did not need an explanation of the need to confront Iraq. Because the great democracies failed to act in 1930s, his people lived in slavery for 50 years."
Remember, big brother is always watching.
Now go about your programmed lives like the good little sheep that you are.
Dem Candidate: "Mr. President, will you admit now that you, as the leader culpable for the decision process, made a mistake in going to war because there were no WMDs, there was no Al Qaeda connection, and there was no imminent threat?"
Bush: "As a Born-Again Christian, I think that Gay Marriage is an abomination before the Lord."
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
What about that blood atonement thing, you guys still do that?
Oh, and planet Kolob? Is "Pearl of Great Price" still church doctrine?
Face it, mormonism is straight-up weird. I mean... okay, just about every religion is straight-up weird, but if you were handing out medals for straight-up weirdness, the LDS would take the silver, finishing only behind Scientology in the straight-up weirdness stakes.
the difference is that people can choose to do these things, and they know the risks. People believe that driving to work (or wherever they want to go) is worth taking the chance that they could be hurt while driving. People smoke cigarettes because they decide to. Cancer and heart disease, in most situations, are due to choices made during that persons life. I like to eat big, rare steaks. I know its not healthy, but I want to anyway. I think that you are a disgrace to our country. You try to make terrorism seem like an unimportant threat, and go as far as to compare an attack on our society to everyday diseases. I dont want to see your damn anti-bush ad (its probably a .mov which I cant figure out how to get to work anyway....). I support Bush, and if you dont then thats fine. I am pretty sure that Bush is not going to have any problem being re-elected. I do, however, have a problem with people who accuse Bush of being anti-american. i dont accuse Clinton or Carter of being anti-american, even though they significantly decreased America's military and intelligence strength. This was a product of their ideaologies, which I do not share, but they were acting in what they believed to be the best interests of America. Bush is doing what he (and I) believe is best. Have some damn respect. How about pointing me to an Ad about how someone would do better to support our country. Trying to re-state existing problems is not productive.
What is the difference between a Democrat and a Socialist??? And why do people on slashdot not seem to have a problem
Reason escapes you. As Mark Twain once quipped, "Logic is the justification of ones own feelings." Terrorism, like Christianity in general, relies on one overarching emotion for control of its constituants and that is fear. Fear of God. Fear of the Devil. Fear of whatever. People who are thusly entralled are called "fear-driven".
Life boat ethics is the topic at hand. Let's try reason. If one life is priceless, what is the cost of two lives?
Terrorism is an unimportant threat if you consider facts and not fear. The method of box cutter/airplane was a fluke method of terrorism that has been resolved. 9/11 was the first *external* terrorist attack of any important,ever and we've had none since. Considering terrorism has been going on for years then statistically it is a fluke both by measure of method and frequency of occurence.
You are extremely simple-minded if you believe toppling Sadaam Hussein had anything to do with terrorism and accomplished any measurable way of "reducing" 0 to 0. (Statistically the chance of another terrorist attack is near 0). It has everything to do with control of the middle-east and oil.
Let's get back to life boat ethics. Every year, thousands of people in Colombia die due to terrorism. It is not war when the main target is non-combatants. The "revolutionaries" in Colombia mainly target civilians and not soldiers, thus making them terrorists. The mostly kill citizens and not soldiers.
However, Colombia is nothing compared to Africa and the terrorism that goes on there. Remember the terrorism of Rawanda? Again, mostly citizens died thus making it terrorism and not "war". Seems the world wasn't crying "Rawanda, we will always remember" after 500,000 people died.
What is anti-American? Define it? It is rhetoric or is it in the results of actions taken? If Clinton was "ant-American" please explain the economy during his administration and please, oh please, explain the ecomony under Bush. Oh, and you can't claim the prior administration as an excuse. Otherwise, Jimmy Carter should get all the credit for Ronnald Reagans success and Bill Clinton gets a face on Mount Rushmore for turning around the economy that George Bush left him.
George Washington, the original GW, would label Bush anti-American. You know why? Because he was an isolationist because an isolation philosophy put *trade* first. He certainly would've never, ever advocated the pre-emptive strike because pre-emptive strikes are anti-trade. Why?, because WAR is anti-trade. Does IRAQ have allies? How is our trade with them now?
You are laughable when you state that Clinton and Carter reduced the military. It was the first Bush that closed all the bases. Or have you forgotten? Even on this issue you are fear driven. Do you realize that the US spends more on its military every year than the top three countries combined? I think that factual criticism that is not fear-driven is valid when relatively speaking we are spending grotesquely more money than any country we could possibly need to defend ourselves from.
You are ruled by fear.
Rationally, the Bush administration is war-mongering and fear-mongering to control the US. They obviously have control of your brain.
Yellow Alert! ORANGE ALERT! DUCK AND COVER!
Cheers!
Mybrid
Mormons claim to be Christians, but their theology, doctrines, practices, and beliefs are not.
Big deal... ever heard of George W Bush?
how long until
This is another interesting story, now that you bring it up.
The reason Joseph Smith was jailed was because he ordered his band of thugs, called the "Danites," to destroy and burn a local newspaper publishing house that was printing things he didn't like. This paper was called the "Nauvoo Expositor."
Being incarcerated, he was vulnerable to his enemies who took advantage of the situation to rid themselves of him. A mob formed, composed of Free Masons who felt Smith had betrayed their secret rituals, and locals who had been swindled out of land and possessions. After a brief gun battle in which Smith and his companions got a few of them, and after Smith ironically gives the Masonic ritual petition for sanctuary to an unsympathetic mob, Smith is killed.
If I'm wrong, I apologize. Please enlighten me.
Visit the best Liberal Blog: DU
A life is not priceless, in my opinion, just by being a life. A person is only worth anything if they are productive. Im sure a bunch of socialists are going to reply now and tell me how heartless I am. Oh well. I dont believe that 9/11 was a one-time attack. I think that If you believe that we are safe now that we know to look out for box cutters, then you are rediculously naieve. 9/11 was the beginning of a stupid islamic jihad that we must destroy swiftly. The reason we have had no attacks since is that we have been on our toes and they know that we are prepared. But we need to be more prepared. What time frame are you referring to when you say that the probability of another attack is near 0? Whoever made that up is a real dumbass. I would say it is closer to 1. It will keep happening, but we need to fight against it to eliminate all of the threats that we can, so that the span in between attacks gets longer and longer. And, when did I connect Hussein to terrorism? If I made this connection it was by mistake, and I will be happy to explain myself If you clarify this for me. But Im not going to really get going on Iraq, thats a whole other story (but, in case you are wondering, I do support it). I am not the slightest bit concerned about terrorism in other countries. If it becomes a threat to America, then it is my concern. When did it become wrong to put America first? I would be much more concerned about terrorists killing 200 Americans on a plane than the mass genocide of tribes in Africa. Come on, call me an asshole you liberal pussies....... Democrats' idea of a good economy is where dumbasses get good jobs and business leaders give up more of their money. I am not working my ass off at school to help the damn homeless people i see all over Atlanta. Or the people who didnt work hard enough to get into as good of a school as I did. Again, its all about me. Asshole? Self-centered? Heatless?? okay. I am in support of free trade. But trade is hurt when your country is attacked. Now, this is when you started not explaining your stuff very well. War is anti trade? What do you mean? Iraq's allies are next to meaningless. They need America more than America needs them. Wake up and realize what America is. do you feel bad that America is a superpower, and should we not profit from out power? and how the fuck am i fear driven? I dont see that at all, but I think you should try to clarify that a bit and I will explain that I am not fear driven. The only thing that I am afraid of is that you liberal fucks seem to be multiplying, and rationality has been thrown out the door. Although, it is important to ignore arguments of pure ideaology in an argument like this. I say you are irrational, and you say the same about me. I just think you are a real dumbass. you are probably some second-rate programmer who is all against Bush because comainies have figured out that your work is nothing that some Indian kid could do for a lower price. Bt then again, thats another thing that i really dont know about and shouldnt say.... I just hope it pisses off a few of you socialist fucks. Cheers to you too, pussy
What is the difference between a Democrat and a Socialist??? And why do people on slashdot not seem to have a problem
So your saying that to find out about Judaism you hang out at Natzi sites. To find out about Christianity you depend on the Moslems. You go to the SCO website to find out about Linux. No wonder your ideas are so squeued. Maybe you should go to the source and ask a Mormon instead of depending on hearsay.
As to the court not being objective. They are far more objective than Slashdot. After all everything submitted is under oath.
Sorry my bullshit sensor overloaded.
So your saying that to find out about Judaism you hang out at Natzi sites. To find out about Christianity you depend on the Moslems. You go to the SCO website to find out about Linux.
A truly thorough investigation of any ideology includes listening to its opponents, yes.
No wonder your ideas are so squeued. Maybe you should go to the source and ask a Mormon instead of depending on hearsay.
I am unfamiliar with the term "squeued," but I take it you mean I have incorrect ideas about Mormonism. I find it interesting that you have reached such a conclusion, as I have so far not said anything about Mormonism itself, only about the foolishness of expecting the official website or documents of any organization to give a complete and unbiased account.
I am Sartre of the Borg. Existence is futile.
* the WTC crashes were criminal acts, the kind of behaviour that requires police, not armies... unless of course you are the kind of proto-fascist-jingoist-American I am worried about, who refuses to consider this reality....(and the article-author sees her country-men becoming)
You are right on the money. Terrorism is a police action, and this is where the actions of America have been so misguided. The Military is a blunt weapon and you want to use that only when you must use it.
meh
The difference is that people can choose to do these things, and they know the risks.
.mov which I cant figure out how to get to work anyway....). .mov file, but I would give you the gist of the ad. Starting with his quote "I am the master of low expectations", Bush gives a presentation about his achievement - 2.5 jobs lost, his friend Ken Lay is busted, 2 countries invaded, UN ignored, Geneva convention violated, but he still took more vacation than any other president. He ends his speech with the following summary: "Terrorist, Terrorist, Terrorist, 9-11, 9-11, God Bless America". The point, obviously being that Americans can be easily made to ignore the important issues if you distract them with the overinflated terrorist threat.
:)
Just for you - second hand smoke kills more people than terrorists do. Reckless drivers kill more pedestrians than terrorists do. Everything else kills more people than terrorists do. Just think about it - five million people die every year in America and only a few tens (or even less than ten) die from terrorists every year. Yeah, 2001 was an exception and 2000 died - still 2500 times less than from other causes. With the way things are going in Iraq, soon the number of American soldiers killed during the War on Terror will exceed the number of people killed in the WTC.
You try to make terrorism seem like an unimportant threat
Yep. Because it is. Even if you only look at the USA, it is pretty damn unimportant. If you disagree, could you please tell me why it is important. Please ignore the fact that thousands of Americans were killed in the towers, since we already established that five times more die every day from other causes. What are other reasons why terrorism is important? I would really like to hear a rational argument for that.
I dont want to see your damn anti-bush ad (its probably a
There is nothing complex about watching a
Trying to re-state existing problems is not productive.
The first step to solving the problem is acknowledging it. Now the problem is that people overestimate the threat of terror, which prevents them from making rational decision. It is worth re-stating this particular problem until people realise it.
I think that you are a disgrace to our country.
Fortunately, I am not from your country. And as it is, United States is on my "do not visit" list and is likely to remain there for quite some time, together with North Korea, Afganistan, Somalia, etc.
P.S. Thanks for speaking up about your opinions anyway.
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
Nice reply, but what you and I should be happy is that we helped produce such brilliant prose. :) The posts by TheRightIsRight deserve a "+5: Look at that! Just look at that!" moderation (if it wasn't an extremely talented troll). :) I never actually heard a person, who would be such a brilliant representation of Bush electorate. At least, not here on Slashdot. That would be funny to me, if not the fact that 50% of Americans are just as irrational...
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
Just like Islam...
Even though these crooks attack liberty again and again, they will find free people always ready to defend. And even though you reply with incoherent gibberish, I'll slap you back down with simple logic, lest someone reading be influenced by the chaotic slime in which you dwell.
I'm going to clearly reiterate what I have presented, for the benefit of those who might have been distracted by your insane rants. Hank Asher is an active bad guy, with a long history of crime. His associates ran Iran-Contra (in which he flew cocaine through the Bahamas into the US), then the seemingly abortive TIA (an obvious criminal invasion of privacy), now its stepchild MATRIX (a program his company invented and sells), which is actually being applied by members of his criminal circle (like the governor of Utah secretly enrolling all Utahans). Along the way, Asher has proven his threat to America, with his corporate products rigging the Bush theft of the 2000 Florida election, and the Diebold eVote machines, which threaten the 2004 election, too. These facts are published where everyone can find them. Some states have managed to escape implementing MATRIX, but other states, like Utah, have been sold out by Bush cronies. Anyone who denies them better be on Asher's organization's payroll, or they're selling themselves up the river with their denial without even making off like a bandit.
Now, you are just a fool with a big mouth. My links to Hank Asher's shameful and scary history of crime and complicity are to publications, like magazines, publishing public records, like criminal convictions, public hearings, and public corporate filings. MATRIX is a database of personal information, with a cross-reference never allowed by the people in it, or the governments that collected it. Of course we can outlaw government invasions of privacy. And prosecute the perpetrators. "Go and read some detective story"? When you venture beyond your keyboard some day, you might find that police are subject to many laws in evidence gathering, which they mostly follow, and which are mostly enforced, which protect us from the police state which the MATRIX promotes. You can give up your privacy, but leave mine alone.
You don't even know how to use the term "litmus test", let alone apply one, or even an invalid "reductio ad absurdum" like you attempted with your bizarre "muslim child porn trader". You don't even think that trading child porn hurts children, you subhuman retard. Not only am I not an authoritarian, there's nothing like that in any of my posts. You are very confused, and I request you stop projecting your scrambled view on my posts. Brainwashing? Your nonsense must stop immediately, stop spewing this disconnected blabber in responses to my posts. If you can't think, don't project that on me - just shut up. Keep your irrelevant fantasy riffs on advanced technologies to people who are impressed by them, and leave the discussions of crucial policies to those of us adults with an actual stake in them. You can diddle yourself with childish fallacies just as easily in a work camp as on Slashdot, so you're not involved here. Learn to think before you talk.
--
make install -not war
I am a Canadian too, and neither invasion was unprovoked unless you hold to that old absurd notion that "other countries internal affairs are none of our business." If that were true, we could just ignore whatever happens in places like Rwanda by saying, hey, it's none of our business.
I am *NOT* suggesting that the world sits back and lets small nations "rot in their own feces".
If you think that nations should be forced to treat their citizens with respect and dignity -- IM ALL FOR IT
But the USA is *not* a benevolent liberator -- make no mistake -- this is excatly what is NOT happening.
Lets start drafting proper UN Law with consequences, where transgressing these laws will have equal consequences for all, and the UN will be able to enforce them. This is exactly what the US does not want, becase as it is now, they do as they please without recourse.
This is an absurd redirection. World War II was a criminal act, but you'd have to be an idiot to think that we could just sic Interpol on them and have things work out. The world is much more complicated and is not black and white.
Yes it is. Lets make Interpol and the UN a truely accoutnable, democratic institution with purpose, power and ability. NO nation (rwanda, iraq, afghanistan or otherwise) can participate in the league of nations without meeting a minimum standard of decency -- its time to put up or shut up. Im sick of people talking out both sides of their mouths wrt the role of a proper international authority -- either there is one, or there is not. The USA cannot be allowed run around like a cowboy crying that they are simply acting on behalf of The Forces of Good in The World and on the otherhand, totally refuse to codefy the role of a proper international authority.
How do you capture someone with a police force in another country that hates your guts, wants you to die, and is aiding the people who want to kill you?
You use the regular international channels. You be patient. If you cannot eventually seize this person, tough fucking luck(!) -- you are not entitled to INVADE!
Plus, nearly all third party candidates take some sort of extreme position on an issue, that even if the rest of their platform makes sense, they would just be unelectable.
excatly the opposite is true. The Republicrats trot out the EXACT same issues every election, and deliver mindless platitutudes on these subjects, then give passing mention to these outlying issues.... these outlying issues appear sensational, and do get their fair share of press, but in the end, absolutely NOTHING is changed. On any issue. Nothing.
face it, the pageant of USA democracy laughable. It might as well be a television show.
No, that is an absolute crock actually. Yes, I am LDS, and at the moment I actually live in Utah. If any member of our church here, or anywhere else practiced this act, they would immediatley be put in front of a disciplinary council. This is *not* allowed at all. What you describe is called adultery, or fornication, as the case may be, and is completely forbidden.
>What happened before ?
m l
Here is the *really* light description and some other info to start.
http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1117-1,00.ht
Bascally, we believe that our spirits existed before we were born, and that this life is one step in God's plan for our progression. Satan believed that we should be forced into compliance, for our own good. This however, is contrary to Gods design, in which we must act, and choose for ourselves.
Yes, he claims to be smart. The notion that a person's chance of dying by terrorism is "1" as he claims is telling. I wonder if he realizes that means statistically every person in America is likely to be victimized by terrosim? Let's see, 2,000 divided by 300 million equates to about 1. That sounds like Bible arithmetic. Yeah. Let's see, if one million died of terrorism then that would be 1 in 300, or about 1/3 of 1 percent chance of being killed by terrorism. But 1 million didn't, only a 2000. Somehow, that equates to one. Ah well. So much for the American education system.
The 27. February 1933 a fire broke out in the Reichstag (Parlament building).
While it was never known who was really behind it (some say the Nazis themself, but the Dutch anarchist Marinus van der Lubbe was found in the burning building), the Nazis claimed instantly that it was the work of a communist conspirancy.
They passed an "Act for the protection of the people and the state" in a hurry. (REAL hurry, it was signed the 28. February)
This act allowed them to arrest anybody for an unlimited amount of time and restricted all civil rights.
They then used it to arrest their main political opponent (the communists) and restrict press freedom to fit their needs in the upcomming election.
By the way, WW2 was (between other things) proclaimed as a war against the "global communist conspiracy".
-skip time-
The 11. September 2001 two planes crashed into the twin towers.
While investigations were still underway, the US governement claimed it to be the work of terrorists. (Namely ObL)
They passed a "PATRIOT act" in a hurry.
This act allowed them to arrest anybody for an unlimited amount of time and restrict civil rights.
They arrested tousands of people, many of them are still neither released nor charged with anything.
They began a war (actually two) and claimed that it was against "global terrorism".
-skip-
Currently, the US governement isnt arresting democrats and I dont think they ever will, even the television controlled american people would notice this.
However, who can tell that those several hundreds "terrorists" that are still contained really are terrorists and that there is nobody that is disliked by the governement for other reasons.
As the Arar-case showes, it is suffisent to have once met a suspected terrorist to become a suspected terrorist. By chaining this argument, everyone is a suspected terrorist, so eventually the governement can arrest whoever it wants.
However, fascists have learned, today they no longer use violence as their main mean to gain control, but "managed democracy".
It gives the people the fealing that everything is all right, which makes it even easier to control them.
In Russia, Putin is very open about his model of "managed democracy" where the state controlled television makes sure the majority votes for the president or his supporters.
And the US democracy is becomming more and more "managed" too.
"... the chains of managed democracy are too light to be felt until they are too heavy to be broken."
- freely from Warren Buffet
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof for my post which this sig is too small to contain.
This is a generic argument to the hundreds of comments posted below and above on this thread, so forgive me for not being on topic necessarily here;
Hmmm I find it interesting that when the word "Utah" is mentioned that the Mormons have something to do with it. I also find it interesting that people who start sentences with "as memory serves" claim to be experts on a religion they really no nothing about, or are even a part of.
Need proof that the Book of Mormon is real? The Ten Commandments were written on Stone Tablets. Did you ever see the tablets they were written on? They could be just as untrue based on various presented arguments all over this thread. Yet based on the "facts" (still looking for data to support these arguments) presented by people on these threads the validity of the Book of Mormon is questioned. Is it just me or am I seeing a contradiction?
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD - Jeremiah 17:5
Hate to break it to you, but your Mormon hating preacher just needs more money in his collection plate.
Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the coversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; - 1 Peter 5:2
About Joseph Smith,
"And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. - Numbers 12:6
Back to the topic on hand, the church does NOT support political institutions of any sort. Being a Mormon, I know Mormon Republicans, Mormon Democrats, and I am an Independant. The church encourages strong involvement in local communities, but they don't brainwash us and hide stuff from us. If your angry about individual rights, be angry at the Patriot Act, not the Church.
I am a member because I want to, out of my own free will. I was a missionary too, and we didn't use any bizarre tactics to trick people. Oh I am married to ONE woman, I DON'T live in Utah, and I drink Mountain Dew whenever I feel like it, and I am not going to hell for it, and quite frankly neither is anyone else that post on this message board. That's what I believe as a mormon. Rant Done.
The hebrew root word on one hand can mean "to boil up" or "to ferment". On the other hand it can mean "to press" or "tread out". Simply put, it can mean the Alcholic Wine, or Grape Juice. The bible has been through countless translations, so no one is to say for sure what evidence a root-meaning can have. And I deem this answer as inconclusive as well. However, I kept reading and found this snippet:
Aside from Mormons and several other Christian religions, there are many other cultures and relitions (like the Mohammedans as quoted above) that have vowed not to drink. Three nations/religions in Christ's time, plus the priests of the bible, were also to abstain from drinking wine of any form, even though Jesus was creating it. This hints that perhaps the wine that Christ created may have not been fermented as to respect those that could not/would not partake of it. But this still seems inconclusive to me as to why Christ would turn water into wine. To me, a logical conclusion is that of symbollism. Here we are, thousands of years later, talking and immortalizing the event that was recorded in the Bible. We are endorsing the event one way or another (whether for or against) and with a cross-sampling of denominations discussing it, we are keeping the memory of the event alive. If Christ turned unfiltered water into potable water, would it be recalled all these years later? Would it even be recorded in the Bible? Even I can boil a p
DS vs.
The above press release implies that everything is OK because it is being done in accordance to law. I'm not convinced that is correct, but even if it is - so what? Everyone forgets that governments make the laws. The cancellation of the constitutional rights of Jews and gypsies in Nazi Germany was perfectly legal in German law because the Nazi party with its rubber-stamp, party-controlled Reichstag made the laws. Wait - "stripped of ther constitutional rights and sent to a detention camp without legal recourse" - that sounds very similar to our current administration's approach to protecting the Fatherland (oops, I mean "Homeland") doesn't it? Even the administration's aborted TIPS program encouraging citizen-on-citizen spying was taken directly from a page of the Nazi/Stasi playbook.
Before I get flamed, I'm not saying the Bush administration is commiting genocide, but except for that one endpoint let's face facts - the Bush way of doing things...
- government security files on every single citizen
- cancellation of constitutional rights for sub-groups of the population
- state-sanctioned informer networks,
- concentration camps,
- torture (yes, it has happened),
- people whisked away by intelligence agents and "disappeared",
- no recourse to the legal system for detainees,
- pre-emptive wars justified with false official statements (both incidently capturing large oil reserves),
- massive state contracts to loyal companies having close personal and economic ties to the regime (Krups/Halliburton),
- casting anyone who does not support the party as un-patriotic,
...more closely resembles the totalitarian Nazi/Stasi way of doing things than it does our founding fathers' way of doing things.
I think you're talking about CoIntelPro here. It's certainly not a very noble piece of US history.
-Rich
...control. *hold up a duracel*
Before everyone gets all up in arms about this as a potential invasion of privacy I should point out that Utah's social homogeneity meant that only 4 actual dossiers had to be assembled -- everyone else's dossier was a symbolic link to one of those 4.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
I'm glad to see that someone has pointed that out. Take it from someone who lives in Utah and is LDS, the church had nothing to do with this decision.
In fact, to my knowledge, no one has been informed of it or asked if they would like to participate in any way, shape or form. The state of Utah is part of the United States and is therefore a democracy, and its citizens should have the right to give their opinion of whether or not to be a part of the system.
The idea that the church's records were involved here is proposterous. The post says -all- of the state's 2.4 million citizens were enlisted in the program. Mind you that those citizens are NOT 100% memebers of the church. The church's geneology records have nothing to do with any public records kept by the state, nor do they have any affiliation to medical, criminal or any other type of records. They are kept within the church for the purpose of tracing the member's ancestry back and have no bearing on the current population of Utah.
Finally, if people must insist on "mormon bashing" then at least be kind enough to realize that there are no "Mormon"'s... that is a nickname given to us because of people who did not believe we were entitled to the religious freedom the Constitution guarantees us. Besides, Mormon was a man who lived a long time ago... we prefer to be referred to as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
The inference that the Son of God is really only an angel.
Mormons believe they are saved through works; entire books of the Bible (Galatians, Romans) teach against that principle.
Eph 2:8-9 are the definitive verses refuting the "salvation through works" ideas:
"(2:8) For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; (2:9) it is not from works, so that no one can boast."
Mormons believe there are many gods. The Bible is quite clear that is wrong.
You sidestepped that one, but not quite neatly enough. Specifically, Mormons believe that after death they themselves will become gods, with there being something like 3 different levels of "powers" based on the amount of earthly works they have accomplished.
Definition of a Christian - One who believes in Christ
Definition of a Christian - One who believes in and accepts salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the only Son of God.
Just believing in Jesus Christ doesn't cut it. You have to accept him as your Savior as well.
Mormons do a very good job of giving you the surface impression that they're not much different than Catholics or Presbyterians or Episcopalians when it comes to their beliefs. It's only when you really look into their beliefs that you see all the conflicts and contradictions with Bible-based Christianity.
That's not entirely true. I believe that the LDS church's official stance is that their members should comply with "...the law of the land..." and have only one spouse. But if it were not for those pesky laws enacted by the unenlightened masses, Mormon men would be encouraged to take as many 14 year old brides as they could support.
Smile...you got fished in by a stupid joke.
What?
So soory...forgot to put this :) at the end to spell out that it was a JOKE DAMMIT
What?
Where did the plates go?
ahem*godwinslaw*ahem
Since your presentation of Mormon beliefs isn't quite accurate, allow me to correct a few things. I'm not necessarily interested in debating theology with you, just trying to clear up some misunderstandings:
"(2:8) For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; (2:9) it is not from works, so that no one can boast."
Certainly. To achieve salvation through works would require the living of a perfect life, something that no man other than Jesus has ever or will ever achieve.
However, that fact does not relieve us of the requirement to attempt to obey God's commandments. Like so many other apparent contradictions in the Bible, this one is clarified very well by the Book of Mormon: "for we know that it is by by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23).
Both as a natural outgrowth of faith and as a token of our dedication to Christ, we are required to demonstrate our obedience to God's laws. Further, since no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God, our inevitable failings must be washed away by the Savior if we are to return to Him. Both Grace and the sincere attempt at good works are required. Faith without works is false. Works without faith is inadequate.
Specifically, Mormons believe that after death they themselves will become gods
This is indeed hard for people to understand, but it's really a simple and even obvious idea. Without it, what really is the purpose of all of this? What's the point? I mean, most of the Christian world has a conception of heaven that sounds downright dull. Our lives here do have a greater purpose and meaning; this is all preparatory to greater things to come. What are those things? Very simply, God is our Father, and our ultimate (and very, very distant) goal is to "grow up" to be like him. What that means, exactly, can only be known by fully understanding what He is.
Of all the ways in which Satan has corrupted Jesus' Gospel, this is, IMO, the most insidious -- he has taught most of the world to deny the very special relation that each person has with God, and to deny the awesome potential that lives inside each of us. Satan wants us to view ourselves as fundamentally inferior beings, not far above himself, to limit our growth and development.
with there being something like 3 different levels of "powers" based on the amount of earthly works they have accomplished.
Not quite. The bottom two levels are for those who cannot progress further, and the levels aren't based on works, exactly. Really, they're based more on effort -- what you tried to do, rather than what you did. To a rough approximation, though, works are a useful way of looking at it. The lowest level (terrestrial), is basically for people who were evil in life. The middle (telestial) is for people who were basically good, but didn't avail themselves of the Atonement and become Saved (that's not the terminology Mormons would use, but it's accurate within your lexicon). The highest level (celestial) is for those who are Saved, which entails more than just stating your salvation to the world.
Note, however, that the terrestrial kingdom is not Hell. Mormons do not believe that a merciful God will condemn anyone to eternal torment. Hell is a temporary state, wherein sinners who opted not to let Christ take their sins will have to pay for them themselves. The terrestial kingdom will be a beautiful and pleasant place, much like the present earth, though without sin, but will be a dead end.
Just believing in Jesus Christ doesn't cut it. You have to accept him as your Savior as well.
Absolutely. Mormons generally use different terminology, but the concept of accepting Christ as your personal Savior and Redeemer is central. We say a variety of things like "Taking upon the Name of Christ" or "Believing on Christ" (note "on" as opposed to "in"). We also don't believe that someone can be Saved at one point in
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
(like the Mohammedans as quoted above)
They are not mohammedans, they are muslims.
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I don't particularly care for your religion, but I have to side with you on this. It was the government that did this to the citizens of Utah.
As for "mormon bashing", please think about it. "Mormon" is a single word to describe who you are. Think about the other titles. "christian", "jewish", "muslim", "baptist", "atheist", "catholic". Now say "Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". It is a mouthfull and its much easier to just say mormon. Generally speaking, everyone accepts that as an interchangeable reference, and isn't used as slang to hurt your feelings.
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
"Generally speaking, everyone accepts that as an interchangeable reference, and isn't used as slang to hurt your feelings."
I understand that. It is not so bad when it is used in the way of a title, as you are saying. I just tire of hearing it used other ways, which may or may not be how some of the posters here intend. But living in Utah, hearing it as a slang term or insult is all too common.
True, Utah is prodominantly Mormon, but far from entirely. So sadly we are very used to being insulted or taunted by this nickname.
The main focus of this comment, however, is as you agreed with. Yet look at the majority of the threads and how they have gone off to bashing and arguing religion; instead of discussing the issue of our privacy and government in general.
The things public officials need to hear are how people feel about these stupid decisions -- not why we hate Mormons, Jews, Athiests, etc.
Many of them most certainly will NOT vote for Bush. They will abstain. Why are some conservatives dissatisfied with Bush?
First president to support a PLO state which is to be carved out of the land of our ally and friend Israel.
So, what do you call Israel? Isnt't Israel carved out of the Palestinian land?
Called Islam a "religion of peace"What a horrible link. There are militant muslims as well as there are militant jews and christians. How many blood-thirsty quotes from the bible would you like me to post? How about hese to start with:
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death
Exodus 21:17Murder is the sentence for practicing any other religion (including instruciotns on burning their city to the ground.
Deuteronomy 13On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the sabbath of complete rest to the LORD. Anyone who does work on that day shall be put to death.
Exodus 35:2"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21
Want to challenge your
For those who are not aware, 'Jacob' refers to a book in the Book of Mormon. And the reference is actually in chapter 2
I put the Bible references in the wrong places. The last paragraph is not responding to Exodus 35:2, just the slavery issue. The few paragraphs before that respond to all the non-slavery Biblical issues.
Where is the ark of the covenant or a miriad of other biblical artifacts. Where are ANY original writeings of the biblical authors (yes, there are early copies, but no originals). These are either destroyed, missing, or protected by the Lord. The plates fall into that last catigory. They would have been destroyed by angry and corrupt men otherwise.
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
I'm sorry if my answer was a little cryptic, but I didn't feel like getting into the details at the time. I was also a little timid at being rebuked for giving an answer that _requires_ faith in order to accept. I would point out again that all serious Christians have a particular amount of faith in certain ancient and holy artifacts. If they did not exist, then the Bible is false. Yet, we have no way to prove that they existed either.
Here in America, in a country founded upon religious freedom, things have not always been free. Once Joseph had received a vision of God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ he proceeded to share this marvelous account with others. He was only fourteen at the time, and was understandably shocked at the level of religious bigotry surrounding him at the time. It was only several years later that he was allowed to take the plates and begin a miraculous translation.
"I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects--all united to persecute me."...
"However, it was nevertheless a fact that I had beheld a vision. I have thought since, that I felt much like Paul, when he made his defense before King Agrippa, and related the account of the vision he had when he saw a light, and heard a voice; but still there were but few who believed him; some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad; and he was ridiculed and reviled. But all this did not destroy the reality of his vision. He had seen a vision, he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not make it otherwise; and though they should persecute him unto death, yet he knew, and would know to his latest breath, that he had both seen a light and heard a voice speaking unto him, and all the world could not make him think or believe otherwise."
During that time, very few people believed that he could have seen the Lord; not because it wasn't possible, but because it went against what they had always been taught. At the same time, though, he and his family were subject to not only violence, but individuals trying to steal the plates. After translation of the portion that we have was completed, the plates were given into the care of an angel (Moroni). We look forward to the day when the remainder of the plates will be translated and published.
If Joseph had kept the plates, he would have been unable in the long run to protect them. As an example, there were some other papyri partially translated by the prophet which are now included in the "Pearl of Great Price". These were lost when he was martyred, and were taken by some of his family members who apostatized. They were presumed to have been lost in a fire in Chicago not long after, though a few fragments have been found.
More information can be found in the "Book of Mormon" itself at:
http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/contents
The Introduction and Testimonies would be a good place to look.
A longer account can be found at:
http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1
This is Josephs account the way he told it himself.
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as avisions or brevelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.
The preachers argument makes a certain amount of sense, from the perspective of an established relegion and the perspective of the agnostic or atheist. It seems to me, an agnostic, that fresh ideologies and relegions, fresh in the sense of being new and having a relatively unspoiled doctrin-a doctrin handed directally down from the founder, tend to resonate and embody the pathologies of the founder and have little to do with a personal god.
Now this is not just a dig at the LDS church, I am talking about ideological fundementalism as well, an ideological framework that springs from an individual, such as mao or radical islamists. The new, and fresh ideologies (especially those generated in the era of mass media), even if they are based on existing structures, such as confucionism in mao's case or the bible in J smiths case, tend to miss the nuances of the underlying ideological framework and enhance those individual pathologys.
Now I am not saying that there is no merit to the teaching of any new prophet or any new scholar, I personally enjoy that nuanced approach to relegion, one that stresses the architypal human endevours. Overall the LDS seems to be a good relegion, those fuckers who ride around on bikes and preach are always polite, almost to a fault!
But it is a new relegion, and based on the word of several men. These men were born recently enough that there was insuffecient time for their persona's to evolve to a point where they seem reasonable. I think for the most part, the LDS church ( and most churches for that matter) are unreasonable
I just find the idea of a revelation of the sort that smith had to be nowhere near the caliber needed to claim dominance in the field of all relegions or be any more relevent then the Branch Dividians. There are so many more that could be better the the LDS. Fuck, at this point popular culture has a stronger hold over peoples minds then these relegions.
I really have a hard time understanding an obsession with these abstractions. If the truth comes from the word of god, why not do what smith did and find god for *yourself*. Not participate in the distorted mental machinations of one man!
take it for what its worth, the rantings of an infidel.
I will leave with an excerpt from William James's The Varieties of Religious Experience
(of which, I may add, there seems to be a startling array of), It addresses my point regarding the pathologys of the founders of relegions.
If you ask for a concrete example, there can be no better one than is furnished by the person of George Fox. The Quaker religion which he founded is something which it is impossible to overpraise. In a day of shams, it was a religion of veracity rooted in spiritual inwardness, and a return to something more like the original gospel truth than men had ever known in England. So far as our Christian sects today are evolving into liberality, they are simply reverting in essence to the position which Fox and the early Quakers so long ago assumed. No one can pretend for a moment that
in point of spiritual sagacity and capacity, Fox's mind was unsound. Everyone who confronted him personally, f