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As a turntablist I have struggled with the possibility of vinyl analog records someday not being made anymore. I mean, it is not just a hobby for me but a profession. Many audiophiles will say that there is nothing like the warm analog sound of the "needle and grove" combo. Some folks 1 2 3 have created a way to control playback of digital audio with turntables using timecoded records. I have played around with them, but they seem to have a "metalic" sound when the program time stretches/compresses the digital audio.

Is it possible to emulate analog properties?

(hope that made sense)

Beat port seems to only have single tracks and not many full cd's or mixes. I find just single tracks really boring. If you have a Stanton Final Scratch I could see it being worth while.

You could always use this: Vestax vrx-2000

There was the Kingston Dubplate cutter that was manufactured by the same guys who made Final Scratch which was another cutting aparatus which utilzed a PC, but I think they no longer sell it. Final Scratch is really an amazing product, but you can't beat the "feel" of real vinyl beaneath the needle.

If they could incorporate some sort of Final Scratch type interface, or even a custom controller (think mixer and 2 turntables) I could seriously consider buying it for use as rig for mixing mp3s. Pop the PS2, the nonexistant custom controller and a small LCD into a mobile rack and you could have a kick ass platform for mobile mixing of digital audio files.

...except that after overwhelming complaints about FS not working on various laptops, the latest version of Final Scratch only runs on Mac OS X and Windows XP. Bad example.

In my free time, when not reading /., I'm an amateur producer/DJ. One program I use is called FinalScratch which implements it's own version of Linux to maximize performance. I think that hi-performance application specific apps like this, rather than using windows and outrageous system requirements, do well to implement their own shell.

This, as well as a larger support system/better useablity for Joe User, in my opinion, is what will bring Linux into the mainstream.

Well if I understand it correctly a TV is digital, even the oldest ones. The screens are made up of lines which I have also understood are made up of dots so VHS and DVD are both lesser than film would be my argument! Now that is only true is both are prefectly produced and presented but neither ever have that. This is where digital starts to win for the reasons you describe, but I for one hope that I will always have a cinema nearby where I can go and watch a film reel be projected, and that there will still be producers willing to go the extra mile to get the look of film or even just because they like it (like authors writing on typewriters or pen and ink). I'm still fascinated by finalscratch which is seeing even the most extreme of djs leaving vinyl for digital audio, I think books are safe for a little while longer yet though (but that mad paper/screen stuff ...).

All the things you mention are just a question of the user interface, especially scratching etc. How about Final scratch ?

This sort of stuff was out years ago and even made a big splash at last year's Macworld Expo San Fransisco (Jan 2003)

Check out the product here

I like the Final Scratch approach. Just put a dummy encoded record on the turntable and then map any content (mp3) to it spatially. the perfect input device.

Sure you can, you just need Stanton's Final Scratch Pro =)

Yes you can.

As a occassional professional DJ a few years ago, an occassional professional soundman with my room shaking EV's, co creator of Quicktime Turntablefrom 1997 and as an owner of Final Scratch, I can tell you with fairly expert opinion that the $250 pricetag this new piece of hardware carries puts it smack dab into the "way too expensive toy" category.

Pro CD turntables that accurately simulate the platter of a vinyl turntable are anywhere from US$800-$1500. Technics 1200's (the 30+ year gold standard for dj'ing turntables) run anywhere from US$400-$750 each depending on who you get them from... a excellent mixer will cost you between US$50-$1000 or more.

FinalScratch is $500. It is a professional grade piece of equipment. It is not a toy. It's complex and responsive. It does what you expect it to. It costs that much money because it's worth it.

I dunno about this $250 new item. Who IS it for anyway? Obviously not pros, and at that price you can alternatively buy a console and a few games to occupy your time.

I've been spinning for quite some time now and it requires huge amounts of skill, finesse and ability.

I think many DJs will pass this up and go and get Final Scracth because LOTS of professional DJs do use this in addition to turntables.

There is a certain touch and mystique to vinyl that you will never get anywhere else, but especially when playing techno (which requires a lot of layering) or turntabilism, the extra tracks and ability to play things you can't really get on vinyl comes in really handy.

The only thing that sounds "stupid" is the suggestion that Mac OS X has a problem with 5.1 surround sound! Since 10.1, the underlying "Core Audio" architecture has had no problem with far more channels than that.

Um.... don't worry too much anyway Gregoyle, I don't really think this product is aimed at people who want "to be taken seriously in the DJ world". Could you imagine, really, getting up in front of over 200 people with that silly looking thing? Don't worry. You can always run Traktor on a Mac, and if you really want to do some cool shit, grab Final Scratch.

I don't know a single DJ who uses a laptop running anything besides MacOS.

i use Final Scratch and i run linux. i would never consider running this on a mac (even though it is mac compatible).

No, but they'll integrate it the right way with Final Scratch. Really cool device that syncs digital media up with your real turntables, lets you manipulate them just like you can real vinyl, and you can watch the waveform at the same time. Oh yeah, and it runs Linux.

Check out Part Time Sucker Radio tonight 7-10pm EST for live Chicago drum and bass on Rewind Radio for some cool cats mixing their own tracks with viynl using Final Scratch. Much cheaper than pressing all your own tunes to dubplates first!

Stanton created a package called Final Scratch a couple of years ago that basically lets you use your existing turntables to mix digital files (mp3, ogg, etc..). Some said it would revolutionize the DJ market and eventually render vinyl records obsolete. It did not.

You'll find that the high majority of DJs still prefer to use a pair of Technics SL1200s and a mixer. There's a level of control when handling the analog source (records) directly you just don't get with digital gadgets. Not to mention a crate full of vinyl records looks a hell of a lot cooler than a folder full of mp3s.

Digital DJ devices are cute and usefull to some, but to the professional / serious amateur DJ they just don't make the grade.

Nope. The real DJs will use Final Scratch.

(If you don't know about it, seriously check it out -- it works very, very well)

I work for a software developer that targets various products at a number of different platforms including Linux and Windows. We very much want to provide a single binary package that will work on as many Linux distributions as possible, and are having problems with distributions (Red Hat) breaking compatibility with previous versions of their own distribution, let alone others. As more proprietary vendors such as Oracle and IBM move their apps to Linux, how do you see distributions handling this? Red Hat currently has the market -and- mind share to force their own way, but this is hardly good for open source or Linux. Will vendors (like final scratch) be forced to distribute their own distro tuned to their specific software? Can't we all just get along?

Well, of course. Most DJ's still use vinyl...

Well, I've met one or two who really love the final scratch. So much so, it's a little freaky, actually.

i have over 300 lps, all bought since 1995. have you not noticed 'dance music' (i think it's called electronica in the states, both are shit names). 99% of house, jungle, breakbeat, drum & bass, techno, trance, booty bass etc etc etc is released on vinyl first for djs.

with the advent of tools like final scratch, people are starting to switch, which means that there's a hell of a lot of vinyl to rip. Also, there's a lot of rare tunes, dubplates and white labels that have been deleted, and are only available on vinyl.

I assume you've seen Final scratch?

It's really difficult to put music on vinyl retroactive because the original (pre-mastered audio) should be mastered differently for vinyl than for cd:s. Otherwise it will sound crap on the vinyl in the end. At least club music would suffer heavily from this treatment...

If you want the ultimate blend of the usability of vinyl with the freedom of computer sampling, I suggest you check out the amazing final scratch system by Stanton. Used by such world renowned DJ's as Ritchie Hawtin, you use a specially encoded piece of vinyl on your normal turntable to control MP3 or WAV samples and tracks through a laptop. It's absolutely brilliant.

If final scratch
doesn't do what you're looking for, why not buy Vestax's "affordable" $10K dubplate cutter?

You are also missing the newest technology to hit the DJ market: Final Scratch. Info.

It plays like a dream, and I have never had any problems with it. I can scratch, back cue, and do anything i can do with vinyl. You still a record to record the inital song at a high bitrate, but other than that, vinyl won't be as big in the DJ world for much longer once everyone gets these.

All of the above have problems though for any DJ who plays house, pop, any form of techno/dnb/IDM/trance etc. I'd say my experience here in Toronto is that a small minority of DJ's use CD decks like the pioneer CDJ-1000. Those who do complain about their inability to get new records. You have to understand that in dance music most remixes come on vinyl and the underground releases "white labels" which often contain tracks with uncleared samples or bootleg remixes. The sorta stuff trendy clubbers and raves go nuts for.

Absolutely 0 (zero) scratch artists use digital machines. Their haptic interfaces aren't nearly as robust as vinyl. The basis of urban/electronic music is sampling. The catalog of vinyl records out there is huge and most of all they're cheap! To this day most hip-hop is produce like so: Sample a record into an Akai MPC, re-arrange and have an MC rap on top of it. Sure you could get your hot James Brown beat on a CD in some greatest hits or remastered disc but this is music from the ghetto. "Real" hip-hoppers are poor and even when they make their millions and are dripping with ice and fat chains they still use records. Vinyl is cultural. All of these new digital products definitely have their creative niches though. Ming & Fs use CDJ-1000's exclusively so they don't have to get acetate pressings of their records while they do extensive touring. Lots of people use traktor and final scratch to play their own new material that they aren't yet ready to commit to a a short run of records.

I guess my point is that even though CD/MP3/OGG/Whatever units are more economically and technologically advanced vinyl is cultural. An analogy would be between a string section in an orchestra and some of the more advanced MIDI keyboards we have today. To the untrained ear a synthesized string pad sounds the same as a performed one. But classical music is an instituition. There are professionals who've trained for decades to play their instruments. Telling them to replace their Strad with a Korg Trinton keyboard would be laughable. DJ's are no different, scratching and mixing is no less challenging. I have the unique position of being both a classical viola player AND somebody who likes to play a few records. I dunno what DJ Scene you're from but here in Toronto which is home of a very vibrant urban/electronic/dance music scene a large majority of DJs use vinyl.

they're 'spinning' anything from mp3s to cds with final scratch.

There's Stanton Final Scratch, which is a pretty tight looking dj kit for linux boxes.

Spinning Mp3s - doing some actual cutting and scratching... Cool stuff.

Use final scratch!

By all means, give us the ability to make good mixed disks at home, but surely you don't want your personal master recording unable to be put on any other disks or mixes you make because it has elements of other songs in it?

By the way, if you are into mixing, check out Stanton's Final Scratch. It's a linux distro that hooks up over usb to normal turntables. You use a couple of special vinyl disks with encoding on them, and it translates the position and speed of the disk onto the PC, which manipulates the mp3/wav/ogg in the same way. Apparently you can mix between digital and vinyl music transparently, using normal DJ skills.

I've not tried or seen this product, but it sounds pretty neat.

For a software product that is similar, check out Traktor. I have tried this products demo, and it's pretty cool. You need two soundcards to get the most out of it, otherwise you won't be able to preview the mix.

Note the Traktor does BPM calculation and automatic sync'ing (if desired), a travesty according to my DJ'ing friends. Final Scratch doesn't (AFAIK), it just lets you use digital media on a turntable. You need your own decks, mixer and DJ skills for this.

http://www.finalscratch.com/ This is another cool Vinyl 'hack'. It uses timecoded records to mix mp3s on analog equipment, albeit with a bit of help from a CPU that uses good ole Linux :) For DJ's just starting out Records are expensive, but this can greatly reduce the cost of starting out.

Here is a system that allows realtime manipulation of mp3s via 2 special vinyl and a little peice of hardware. Final Scratch

Are you sure these guys are using MP3s? I know that Final Scratch can support a bunch of formats (from their FAQ: at least CDs, MP3's, WAV's, and AIFF's). I figured that they were using a less lossy format.

If they definitely are using MP3 then I guess I'm going to have to eat my words...and just after writing another rebuttal on the same topic (one or two posts above). If you're right, I'm really going to look like an idiot. Oh well, wouldn't be the first time. But pending some sort of confirmation that people like Richie Hawtin, DJ Craze, etc are using MP3s with Final Scratch I'll stick with the "MP3 ain't that great" stance.

By the way, I know that the Final Scratch website recommends "encoding your sound files at 128kbps or higher for normal club play", but you'd have to be crazy on acid to do that. I'm assuming that's like the recommendation that GTA3 runs on 450MHz processor with a 16Mb graphics card. It runs, it's just an awful experience. I'm assuming no-one's going to recommend 128kbps tracks get played in clubland any time soon.

This isn't a bad GUI...

Thankfully, i've got enough Karma to last me the next century over. Anyways, for those of you griping that you that are arguing Vinyl is superior, you should see Final Scratchit is the obvious evolution of blending a turntable and a computer together. Plus, I bet you could kludge it to support whatever godforsaken audio format you love... and they said AIFF was dead.

You'd laugh at Richie Hawtin and John Acquaviva? I doubt it. They're some of the original pioneers. Richie is famous for his sets that mix songs, effects, and drum machines. He made the switch to Final Scratch (maps mp3's to a special vinyl record) so that he can carry the 3000 or so tracks that he wants with him around in his notebook, rather than having to tote 3 refrigerator box size crates around with him. Final Scratch and similar systems combine the portability of mp3 with the vinyl handling ability you traditionally think of when you think of djs (you can even needle drop the mp3s).

The one disadvantage of mp3 or cd is that you can't see the breaks in the vinyl, and the more intimately you know the track the less of a disadvantage that is. And if you're going to choose anything other than vinyl, why go with cd? Cd's have the disadvantages of mp3s (can't see the vinyl grooves) and the disadvantages of records (have to cart around all the physical media). If anyone's curious about mixing mp3's just at home for fun, check out this awesome software which has really advanced auto-beatmatching capabilities.

I don't know about DJ Shadow, but if it's good enough for Richie Hawtin, it's good enough for me.

IMHO this is the best solution, because software (and disk space) is much easier to upgrade. Plus, you don't need to find space for One More Gadget. Instead you can slake your gadgethirst by purchasing a niftier computer.

I remember hearing about a program called FinalScratch that is REAL similar to this, a few years ago. I think it came out first for BeOS. It's the same kind of thing, in that it uses digital audio for the source, but it's actually tied into a real turntable with a "real" vinyl record, and it sounds like it has a lot of cool features for DJ's.

Here's their site.

first off, IANADJ, but it seems kind of limited to me. it's cool tech and all, but 20 second loops? you would be better off with a few battle wax records and a regular deck.

or, there's final scratch, which uses timecode records to manipulate audio.. so you could use any old deck to "spin" digital audio.

still, cool idea.

Final Scratch

Final Scratch, uses a hybrid of actual turntables and digital audio. You use a pair of special vinyl records, connect the audio out of the turntables into this strange USB device which controls the software that allows you to cue/scratch mp3s...

It was only available for systems running BeOS, but they are branching out with Mac OS/Win32 and Linux versions.. You only need a 'standard' DJ setup, two turntables and a two line mixer.. it's insanely cool.. the only downside is the price, $500USD, but thats relatively cheap to a stack of vinyl, or your Technics 1200's.

that runs linux that is actually cool, look at
http://www.finalscratch.com/

...would be laughed off the decks.

anyway, real nerds use Final Scratch

Check out Final Scratch. It uses your normal analog turntables, interfaced into a "black box" that jacks into a PC running BeOS (soon it will support embedded linux). The system comes with proprietary records that the box (they call it the ScratchAmp) "listens to" and manipulates digital audio (WAV, MP3, AIFF) files on your PC.

The point is that you can scratch and mix digital audio files as though they were vynil on your turntable. It rocks.

well, I've seen these and played with them in a few stores, and let's face it, they ain't the miracle 'wheels of steel'... mixing is a tactile, sensory, feedback driven 'process' for lack of a better term. Watch a true DJ play the decks, they drag fingers on the label to slow a track down just enough to get the beats matched. They twist the post between their fingers to get a little more speed and make magic happen.
I've been learning for years, and I still don't feel that I'm half as good as I should to be when I spin at house-parties. I'm still learning some basic tricks, tweak-scratches, roll-backs, all of the tools the man (and woman!) behind the wheels rely on to move a party and make the choons bump.
I've also gotten pretty heavily into tools like Sonic Foundry's ACID and the old MIDI and .mod players that I still use on my BeOS boxen. They provide a clinical, digital interface that allows you to play with musical themes, components and transitions in ways that your average beginner cannot even approach. But again, I still consider it just a tool to further my knowledge of how a good groove works and how to utilize all the musical influence that there is around me.
The DM2 is another tool in this arena, but it is not the philospher's stone, and I doubt that in it's present incarnation it will go much beyond the starter-kit market who doesn't want to cough up $500 for two cheezy belt-drive 'tables and a mixer that cross-fades like a brick. It does however present an opportunity to expose more people to the aspects of 'turntablism' that seems to be the vogue.
I would like to note that blahtree brought up an important tool that I remember from the days when BeOS was still considered viable... :) the Final Scratch [finalscratch.com]. By using true turntables as the proven interface, you allow the masters of wax to use all their flare, body-scratches, almost everything they have spend countless hours practicing and refining (well, everything but hydroplaning). But the actual sound is created through the digital manipulation and control of MP3's and other audio formats. While it may not be a truely optimal solution for some, it does meld the two most popular aspects of the old-school vinyl camp with the digital precison and endurance of the new digital-era digi-jays. I cannot count the number of times I have had to retire old vinyl that had given it's best and finally just gotten to worn to play. These days I'm prone to rip stuff to mp3 and play with it there for a while before I start eating away at it's life-span by putting it under the needle.
Now while I do have all my classics on vinyl (I've culled it down to 200-300 of my favorites) I would love to be able to show up at a gig with just a wallet of DVD's and not have to worry about herniating over 120lbs of wax. (tho' the final scratch still requires you to haul your 90 lbs. coffin. Hey, those SL-1200's are 40 friggin' pounds each, but that just keep us "I've been DJ'ing parties 7 nights a week and haven't seen daylight in a month" phreaks in shape.)

As I have heard said, "In the 80's every kid wanted a guitar, now they all want their own set of turntables."

Ok, I am a dj. I play vinyl mostly, although I've played around with cd's, and playing stuff off MD. (blatent self-promotion: djrightround.zyx.com

First to correct Cliff's comment:

I don't know about its revolutionary properties, but it does look to be a nifty tool, and it looks to be the perfect thing to learn on.


This is actually a very poor platform to learn how to dj on. There are 2 keys to good dj'ing. 1) Beat matching...getting two tracks to sync up. 2) Track selection...choosing the tracks that get everybody dancing. I guess there is also a 3) which is scratching. Depends on your style.

The DM2 automatically beat matches everything, so that kind of rules out learning #1, and the DM2 will only play the tracks you can buy from mixman. Ouch. So much for track selection.

Now to get to what Todd was asking about. You might be able to get the DM2 to do some neat stuff. A far more interesting device, however, is Final Scratch. This is what Ritchie Hawtin has been using in his shows lately. It's basically a device that will map mp3's off your laptop onto a special piece of vinyl that slaps onto an ordinary turntable. Less gimicky, and no hacks required. Team this up with csound and/or reaktor, add a sequencer, and you'll really be cooking.

As an interesting side note, you don't even really need a pro audio card for this kind of thing. Most high end consumer cards have a relatively clean audio out. As long as you're not recording anything, which requires a quality analog to digital converter, you should be fine.