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It's official; Creationists confirm: *BSD is dying

One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when Objective: Christian Ministries confirmed that *BSD is satanic propaganda, part of a larger campaign by powerful & evil subversive forces such as PBS and Pokemon. Coming on the heels of recent evidence which plainly shows that *BSD is the work of the Devil, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD and it's evil ilk is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by the dominance of Microsoft and Forces of Good in computers.

You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. As many of us are already aware, it is written that in the coming Armageddon we will see *BSD and it's many daemons vanquished. Red ink will flow like a river of blood.

Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

Hippie Apple Computer founders Jobs & Wozniak sold their first computer for $666. Their newest computer system is based on 'Darwin' - an open source system named in reference to Charles Darwin. Not only is evolutionism evoked but we all know that open source is just another name for communism. Further, as noted theobiologist Dr Richard Payley states, "Darwin OS is not the original creation of Apple Computers but is instead based off of an older, obsolete OS called 'BSD Unix'" While the clear alignment of *BSD, Apple, & open source with evil might be shocking, Dr Payley says that this is "well known among the computer elite, who are mostly Atheists and Pagans" This is consistent with the strife and 'flame wars' this elite often delight in spreading.

Due to the troubles of evil, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by something even more sinister who sell another troubled OS. Now according to a consensus of media analysts they will also soon be dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

How long will *BSD continue to shake it's trident in defiance of God? *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be only among evil OS dilettantes. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

Fact: *BSD is dying

I may drop Evolution in favor of Mozilla Mail.

I tried to find out if the Evolution dev team was going to do this. The only thread I could find on the topic is here:

http://lists.helixcode.com/archives/public/evoluti on/2002-August/020845.html

Doesn't look like it's part of their vision.

Check out this quote from a Ximian employee's website about the attack on the World Trade Center:

"The attack ... was not cowardly nor senseless ... "

Great work on Evolution Ximian, now if you could only hire some employees who have a clue.

KDE comes with so many other good programs as well, like KNode (News reader) and KMail (lightweight email program)... Does GNOME have any comparable programs?

Errr... yes! Pan is probably the best free newsreader for any platform, Evolution is an incredibly well-integrated mail, calender and addressbook program, and Balsa is a very decent more lightweight mail reader. For office programs, Gnumeric is way more advanced than KSpread, Guppi (still in CVS) is one of the only serious free graphical data analysis tools, GnuCash is very polished, and Dia rocks. Graphically, Sodipodi is shaping up very nicely, gPhoto rules, and the GIMP integrates better with a GNOME environment than with KDE. And then there's XMMS (the best mp3/ogg/mpeg/divx Linux player), Grip (the best CD player/ripper combo) and GStreamer for multemedia; there's GnomeICU, Gabber, Gaim and X-Chat for messaging; there's Gnapster for file-sharing; and there's more useful utilities (e.g. Bug Buddy), system utilities (e.g. Red Carpet), and panel applets than you could shake a stick at. And I know I've missed out quite a few more (Gnome-DB, Oregano and Dr. Genius have just spring to mind - and, yes, Galeon, which rocks and is now my primary browser). In other words, GNOME is hardly short on applications.

If anything, I've often found it to be the other way round. While Konqueror rules, and KWord is much better featured than AbiWord (though I personally dislike the interface), I think where KDE usually excels is in the underlying desktop core, rather than the applications. But that's just my opinion.

PS Sorry for ranting.

Someone may want to tell him his company changed names! :)

-Bob Zill
My very first Slashdot post!

http://www.helixcode.com/desktop

Personally, I just wish more of the code out there would start using glib and Gnome for things like error handling, internationalization and configuration preservation. Even non-graphical programs can benefit from complying with the Gnome application standards.

Well said. Miguel de Icaza made a similar point in his paper, Let's Make Unix Not Suck : in general, component reuse in Linux just isn't happening beyond libc and xlib, whereas this is something that IE actually does right-- it's built of a collection of reusable COM components. Much kudos should be accorded to gtk and friends for having a policy of software reuse that goes beyond the merely graphical.

It'd probably be offtopic here to consider whether applications which don't share components with others (MdI lists Samba, Apache, NFSD, innd, sendmail, in.named, ftpd, ssh, Netscape, GhostView, XDVI, Acrobat, Mathematica, Maple, Purify, FrameMaker, and Star Office) could or should be redesigned or patched to make use of glib as well; but it's ontopic to agree with you about the benefits of glib's reusability, and indeed to add that the use of glib is IMO something that should be considered carefully if anyone's starting a new project in C.

As I said on the interview (but it seems the url got lost somewhere), we have been working on a cross-platform set of tools to configure and customize your Linux system.

You can see Arturo's screenshots here:

http://primates.helixcode.com/~arturo/hst

Miguel.

Hate to say this since I'm a KDE guy myself... but I talked with the Helix guys at Comdex and they seem to be quite cool. Specifically, I mentioned the Slack problem to them and they kinda groaned, but Aaron came up to me and gave me the following URL:

http://primates.helixcode.com/~aaron/slack.html

If you want to go check it out, and if you REALLY want to try out that purty GUI installer, just follow his directions... and soon, you'll have Helix on Slackware. (I'm currently being tempted by the Dark Side - FreeBSD is awfully nice... ; )

So what's with the question about Helix shipping Nautilus as part of their default? If Helix used Nautilus, there would be no point in having Red Carpet. I like how Miguel beat around the bush when asked this question.

http://www.eazel.com/catalog/info

http://www.helixcode.com/apps/redcarpet.php3

According to Miguel, "you could say that Evolution is targeted to replace Outlook". Do you think they mean in terms of introducing new security holes, too? :-( It sure looks that way. Helix Code, like Microsoft, seems quite adept at crafting eye candy, but I'm not sure security is even an afterthought.

An Intereing note, As much as they spout 'Free! Free! Free! Source Code!!', HelixCode's site does not have Any packages in either the SlackWare .tgz format (big deal, most slack users like to compile from source), or Source Packages other than in SRPM format...

I can't speak for Slack users, but I can tell you that you're dead wrong about source packages for Debian.

This directory is full of tarballs and diffs; using "apt-get source [Helix package of choice]" with the appropriate lines in your sources.list file will get you a source tree.

Jay (=

Good question. Maybe she read the "It's in development" warning.

"Even though it has a non-zero version number, this is not a "stable" release. You will not be able to use it as your real mail client, calendar, or contact manager."

Or the README, which says something like "This program may delete all your email if you aren't careful"... or something.

>>>if you cannot figure out a few simple commands, maybe you shouldn't be using
>>>Linux in the first place !!! Its not for joe average, its for people who like to get under the hood and tinker around.

I disagree... It may have been that way before, but more and more windows users are moving to linux, probably just because of the hype so they are curious. But the easier it is for any user to install and maintain packages, the more users will stay with linux. Sure sometimes its a good idea to compile the sources, but if there's already a package out there, it's just a waste of time. Ideally, no user should ever have to compile the sources- just have it there in case they want it. The thing that is keeping that from happening is the lack of a standard packaging system. RPM works fine, but I really like the apt-get feature of debs. But now that apt is being ported to rpm, then I think I'll just stick with rpm. In the meantime, whoever makes package management easier has got my support.

But on a side note, I think the interface for this piece of software is ugly and is poor UI design. I personally cant wait for RedCarpet from Helix to be available - that looks like the best bet right now for package management.


-Brandon

>>>if you cannot figure out a few simple commands, maybe you shouldn't be using
>>>Linux in the first place !!! Its not for joe average, its for people who like to get under the hood and tinker around.

I disagree... It may have been that way before, but more and more windows users are moving to linux, probably just because of the hype so they are curious. But the easier it is for any user to install and maintain packages, the more users will stay with linux. Sure sometimes its a good idea to compile the sources, but if there's already a package out there, it's just a waste of time. Ideally, no user should ever have to compile the sources- just have it there in case they want it. The thing that is keeping that from happening is the lack of a standard packaging system. RPM works fine, but I really like the apt-get feature of debs. But now that apt is being ported to rpm, then I think I'll just stick with rpm. In the meantime, whoever makes package management easier has got my support.

But on a side note, I think the interface for this piece of software is ugly and is poor UI design. I personally cant wait for RedCarpet from Helix to be available - that looks like the best bet right now for package management.


-Brandon

My catchall help source is Google's Linux Search I can't comment on any general purpose linux help books, becuase I haven't used any.

-jef

- Automatic network/Internet configuration
Don't most distros do this already for network cards? On RH at least, it can't be too hard for a user to run control-panel and set up an internet connection that way, too.

- Tough, preconfigured security for network/Internet access
Okay, good point. Let's stop installing ftpd/httpd/anything-d by default on a 'simple' install, that should mostly fix the problem.

- A conservative roster of applications
So just pick the first (or 'best'?) app of each type and install it. Why should advanced users get less choice over their applications for the benefit of less experienced users?

- Preconfigured Windows/Mac OS file system and network support
It should be feasible to write a partition scanner that checks to see what partitions you have and automatically add them to /etc/fstab, shouldn't it? Other than that, a GUI for samba configuration would be nice, I suppose.

- A single window manager that integrates the best of existing desktop environments blah blah
How about no? Unless somebody feels like 'integrating' KDE and GNOME.. I'm not even going to bother with the 'window manager != desktop environment' bit.

- A modicum of accessories such as a calculator and an address book
Uhh.. (checks GNOME apps menu).. seems to be there already.. same goes for KDE.. Perhaps this guy will be happy with Evolution, what with its resemblance to Outlook.

- User-friendly network administration tools
Most of what the 'average user' would want is already there, but yes, a fancier GUI couldn't hurt.

So what, exactly, does this guy want? A couple of fancy GUIs and a default install option...

It might make sense, then, to have several CDs for several different install types - one CD clearly marked as a 'Standard' install (for the everyday user, everything gets done for them), and a CD set for the 'Advanced' (or should that be 'Advanced Datacenter Pro Super Server Edition 2001'?) for people who don't want the hand-holding.

Personally, though, I think I lost any real appreciation of the article at around the point where he said:

Add a peripheral (or just sneeze, for that matter) and you'll spend a good chunk of time trying to figure out how to recompile your kernel.

Just my $0.01 (rounded, converted from $AUS.. shocking exchange rate at the moment)

The Media is thoroughly confused, but this isn't news to anyone. I'm tired, too, of hearing about the "Eazel" desktop environment. Don't get me wrong. I love what Eazel, and other companies are doing for open source projects such as Gnome. I just dislike the Media's gross misunderstanding of the relationship between the Community and the Corporation. One wonders of the Media will ever really grasp the beast known as the Open Source/Free Software Community and how it integrates with the business models of companies such as Red Hat, Eazel, and Helix Code. "They" don't seem to fully grasp the idea that the Community (project, source, forums) is an entity separate from the Corporation, yet a part of it with a powerful relationship. The Corporation may enhance the Community, providing resources that the Community might not be able to provide on it's own, yet if the Corporation were to die, the Community would live on. And the Corporation very much feeds on the Community.
----

As a side note, I went to helix.com when I first heard of Helix and wondered why they were talking about Irritable Bowel Syndrome... I just find that funny.

console games used to have a 6 year lifespan. That's shrinking to 3 years.

Try 5 years:

• PSX (1994); PS2 (2000).
• Genesis (1989); Saturn (1994); Dreamcast (1999) but Sega realized Saturn was a lost cause anyway.
• SNES (1991); N64 (1996); GAMECUBE (2001).

The PC cycle is twice as fast anyway, and PCs cost $1000 instead of $250.

The PS2 is quite advanced but hard to code for.

The PSX had a decent libc (C runtime library) when it was first released. Sony PS2 was rushed too fast to get a libc developed.

Since nintendo's PowerPC comes from IBM it probably doesn't have altivec and that leaves it depending on the (for a risc chip) weak FPU powerpc's are known for.

Which is more than overcome by the hardware everything on the chipset. (This is how Sony overcame the lack of an FPU in PSX.) Besides, how do you know that the FPU hasn't been enhanced in PowerPC Gekko (not to be confused with Mozilla Gecko or Geico Direct auto insurance)?

and I don't see how Microsoft (with the best outlook)

Helix Code has a better outlook, and it's called Evolution.

At last! Uncontrovertable proof that Darwin is useless and we should all avoid Evolution in favour of the superior Creation.

http://www.helixcode.com/~miguel/bongo-bong.html

JavaBeans address much of your issue, along with all those ready-built COM/ActiveX components you see for sale in the back of DDJ.

I don't know of anything like this for Unix yet, but Bonobo might be promising. It takes a lot of time for something like this to reach a critical mass, though.

Evolution

Evolution is part of the GNOME project and is being developed by Helix, Inc. It will be integrated into the next Gnome release due out early 2001. You can download a beta right now or add deb ftp://ftp.helixcode.com/helix/evolution/distributi ons/Debian/ ./, to your Debian sources list to fetch it. Be warned, is is under heavy development and requires many dependancies that are still under heavy work

I think Helix's Red Carpet will make installing/removing programs a breeze. Aside from that, you can't beat APT for simplicity and power.

When last I used suse (5.x or so), it seemed strongly kde based. That is, like corel, all the admin stuff reminded me of WinDOS. Is this still true?

Indeed, SuSE is strongly KDE based. But you can install other desktop environments or window managers too. The latest release (7.0) has a very nice graphical installation with Yast2, which will let you go from nothing (PC without OS) to a fully working KDE environment in only a few mouse clicks. It is easy to use, it detects and configures a wide range of hardware automatically, and it is even rather robust. It also works for updates/upgrades too.

However, if you do not want to run KDE and you do not want to install it at all, then SuSE gets in your way. It is possible to install SuSE 7.0 without KDE (if you are short on disk space, or for political/philosophical reasons), but it is not trivial. The easiest way to do this is to use the older (text-based but still menu-driven) Yast1 installation tool, pick one of the standard configurations that is suitable for you, then manually unselect the KDE packages. It will complain that some packages are missing from the base system (y2base and yast2) and it will report an unsatisified dependency (lxuser, the basic user setup for X, requires kbase from KDE) but everything will work fine anyway so these dependencies on KDE are not really necessary. It is a bit annoying that you can never let Yast select packages automatically (otherwise it will select the ones mentionened above, find that they depend on more KDE pieces, and in the end install most of KDE) but it is doable.

By the way, if you do not install KDE because you prefer GNOME, then you have to be careful: even if you select the "GNOME system" instead of the "KDE system" during installation, it will still install parts of KDE and it will not start the GNOME environment automatically when you boot. I found that it is usually much easier to select an installation without any desktop environment, and to install Helix Gnome from Helix Code, which has better packages than the old ones included with SuSE.

That being said, if you do install KDE, you will find that the admin tools are decent. They do not allow you to do everything, but the basic configuration options are there. Also, the graphical configuration tools do not prevent you from using command-line tools if you like them, or editing the configuration files by hand if you know what you are doing. The files that are automatically generated or modified by some tools contain some comments explaining that you should modify /etc/rc.config instead. This works quite well.

Nothing, but Evolution would love to understand such a thing.

• Default Helix Gnome desktop

What we need is smarter protocols that distribute the content closer to the edge of the network. The commercial Akamai service does this by placing content caching servers at several thousand ISPs. These caching servers hold frequently-requested images, video clips, and other large files from major content providers. When Joe ISP user downloads a video clip it comes from his ISP's Akamai server instead of going out onto the Internet, crossing peering points, etc.

Worthy of note is that Helix Code is an Akamai customer. So, when you install Helix GNOME, it's not coming from some arbitrary mirror site, but automagically from the closest upstream Akamai server.

Akamai is awesome, but it would be nice to have an open-source, open-network way to implement this at the ISP level. Does anyone know of any such effort underway already?

While it's probably not ready for prime-time yet, won't Helixcode's Evolution eventually do all these things? I know it won't be the perfect solution for everyone, but it's way of storing queries as "folders" and other features should eventually make it quite powerful.

While it's probably not ready for prime-time yet, won't Helixcode's Evolution eventually do all these things? I know it won't be the perfect solution for everyone, but it's way of storing queries as "folders" and other features should eventually make it quite powerful.

From the installer to the login screen, everything is well designed, looks very pretty, is well organized and just makes sense.

The apps and desktop are a nice step forward visually, but Helix Code takes a drag-and-drool approach to security and deserves some heat for that. They're deliberately making the distribution and installation less secure than what's offered by the major RPM-based Linux distributions.

I used to be an advocate of Gnome. But the Helix Code faster-dumber-riskier approach has me reassessing my aversion to KDE. If Miguel, Nat, & co. want to start taking seriously something besides eye candy and PR, that would be great.

Steamroller, cathedral, ivory tower, flytrap, loaded gun: pick your analogy. There are serious problems with Helix Code.

-Peter

The non-link doesn't work. Perhaps Miguel meant http://www.helixcode.com/tech/ helix-setup-tools.php3. Maybe not, though; it doesn't have a lot to do with what he was talking about.

The reason that it looks so much like Outlook is because (I would assume) Helixcode is using bonobo components from their Outlook clone, Evolution. Helixcode has been taking some pretty large strides with their component architecture, it'll be nice when more Gnome apps begin to follow their example.

If not, it might be worth considering, as it looks pretty spiffy.

This looks like another good step towards making linux usable as an average joe desktop os. The average non geek who has enough trouble using a mac doesn't even want to think about something like rpm -Uvh package.rpm from the command line. And while there are gui package managers out there, i've found that it's even more confusing to install something i just downloaded using the gui as opposed to the command line.

A package manager/installer system that is highly customizable, from easy as hell for the non geeks, to complicated as your feelings about cheeze for ubergeeks. There are some distros that take a decent step in making the newbie comfortable (like mandrake)... but some things are still missing. being able to find the package easily on the desktop, double click it, and have it install, with icons in the gnome/kde menus and the who kabong would go a long way in helping linux get over the "it's too hard to use" barrier that stops it from being a widely accepted desktop os.

now if only there was a decent media player....

---

The un-mangled URL for the screenshots is http://primates.helixcode.com/~vladimir /rc/.

Corrected link:
here

Do you have data to back this up? Which distributions are you talking about? Caldera, Mandrake (others?) default to KDE. RedHat, TurboLinux, Debian default to Gnome. Soon HP and Sun will default to Gnome instead of CDE. I'm not seeing your point.

Gnome is unstabel to me and very clunky

Try Helix Gnome. It's very stable and a great distribution of the Gnome platform.

The KDE support base also is growing exponentially when compared to Gnomes support base.

What does this statement even mean? You're making a mathematical comparison with no data to base it on. How did you arive at this statement?
----

Read Miguel de Icaza's article on Let's make Unix not suck. He talks about why Gnome is more than a desktop and discusses the idea of building applications from components rather than wasting time and effort to build huge mononoliths which all take up memory to implement their own versions of the same thing. So Galeon can just reuse Gnome components for the UI etc and Gecko for the rendering..

Sure its possible to release code that includes all its own libraries its own UI, it's own widgets, its own version of printf and it will compile anywhere, but aren't you getting sick of them?

AFAIK there's no VB implementation for Red Hat.

Don't worry, it's on the way.

I would suggest you try Gnome 1.2.X. And I'd also suggest using the Helix Gnome distribution. It installs beautifully on top of RedHat 6.1 and is very stable.
----

In short, Gnome more resembles well-known commercial projects than does KDE. The involvement of commercial software houses is supposed to improve this?

Which one to you looks more like a commercial product we all know about? (here or here)

They look almost the same to me.

As far as your comments regarding the Gnome Foundation go, I would encourage you to read the Draft Charter. There's a lot of good stuff in there. It's heavily modeled on the Apache Foundation. The Foundation isn't just a bunch of companies dictating policy. In fact, that's precisely what it isn't. I, for one, happen to be a member of the Gnome Foundation, and I have contributed relatively little. They're very open to letting contributors be voting members, and very opposed to the Foundation being dictated by corporate policy. I'll give you some quotations from the charter to give you an idea of what I'm talking about:

In almost every sense of the word, GNOME is an open project. This is one of our greatest strengths, has always been, and should be the balefire by which we plot our course into the future.

The foundation should not be exclusionary or elitist. Every GNOME contributor, however small his or her contribution, must have the opportunity to participate in determining the direction and actions of the project.

The openness of GNOME has always been a point of pride for us, and an important characteristic which distinguishes us from many of the other open source projects out there. Anyone can become a contributor, write access to our CVS does not involve trial by fire or other masonic rituals, we don't use Access Control Lists, and we've always been exceedingly good about folding talented newcomers in our arms and welcoming them to the project. No resume required.

Participation in the foundation is intended only for those people who are responsible for actual contributions to the software which makes up GNOME. A corporation, organization or individual should not be granted a place in the foundation unless its presence is justified by the merits of its contribution. Money cannot buy influence in the GNOME project: show us the code (or documentation, or translations, or leadership, or webmastering...).

The foundation must act in the best interests of GNOME, independent of influence from outside organizations and corporations. No single entity should have the ability to direct GNOME to its own ends.

I hope some of this helps...
----

Helix Gnome is a Gnome distribution. It's analogous to the concept of Linux distributions, where vendors customize the kernel, integrate everything, do bug fixes, decide what packages they wish to include, and make it easy to install and use. That's what Helix Code is doing for Gnome. They've written utilities like the installer and updater to facilitate the installation/upgrading process. They've decided which packages they wish to include in their distribution of the Gnome Environment. And they're doing application development. They have some of the best Gnome hackers around working for them, writing Evolution (the Fifth Preview Release is out now, btw!), the Helix Setup Tools, and improving the desktop and development environment in general.
----

Helix Gnome is a Gnome distribution. It's analogous to the concept of Linux distributions, where vendors customize the kernel, integrate everything, do bug fixes, decide what packages they wish to include, and make it easy to install and use. That's what Helix Code is doing for Gnome. They've written utilities like the installer and updater to facilitate the installation/upgrading process. They've decided which packages they wish to include in their distribution of the Gnome Environment. And they're doing application development. They have some of the best Gnome hackers around working for them, writing Evolution (the Fifth Preview Release is out now, btw!), the Helix Setup Tools, and improving the desktop and development environment in general.
----

Helix Gnome is a Gnome distribution. It's analogous to the concept of Linux distributions, where vendors customize the kernel, integrate everything, do bug fixes, decide what packages they wish to include, and make it easy to install and use. That's what Helix Code is doing for Gnome. They've written utilities like the installer and updater to facilitate the installation/upgrading process. They've decided which packages they wish to include in their distribution of the Gnome Environment. And they're doing application development. They have some of the best Gnome hackers around working for them, writing Evolution (the Fifth Preview Release is out now, btw!), the Helix Setup Tools, and improving the desktop and development environment in general.
----

Helix Gnome is a Gnome distribution. It's analogous to the concept of Linux distributions, where vendors customize the kernel, integrate everything, do bug fixes, decide what packages they wish to include, and make it easy to install and use. That's what Helix Code is doing for Gnome. They've written utilities like the installer and updater to facilitate the installation/upgrading process. They've decided which packages they wish to include in their distribution of the Gnome Environment. And they're doing application development. They have some of the best Gnome hackers around working for them, writing Evolution (the Fifth Preview Release is out now, btw!), the Helix Setup Tools, and improving the desktop and development environment in general.
----

gnome is a desktop, with underlying infrastructure of libraries and gui tool kit, plus some applications based on said libraries and tool kit (gnucash, gnumeric, gedit etc. etc.), it has been around a while now (refer www.gnome.org)

helixcode, which hasn't been around so long, is a distribution of gnome (much like redhat is a distro of gnu/linux) so it bundles up the desktop, libraries, tool kit, apps etc. etc. checks for dependencies and then offers you a nice gui based update mechanism to make your life *so* much easier... (refer www.helixcode.com)

tell me, when was the last time you checked what updates were available for your distro / desktop ??

HTH
marty

It's a valid concern. After all, they're giving away all their products free, gratis and for nothing. You have to, really. Unless you've got a kick-ass game, it's tough to sell Linux software.

It sounds like they want to be a combination of portal and information pusher (remember Pointcast?). I think if they can get almost all free information, plus some exclusive information, assembled in one point they can succeed. If I want to know when Courtney Love is coming to town (per the article) I can check hole.com. However, if they want to tell me that Courtney Love is coming to town on the 17th, I have no plans that evening (according to Evolution), I have enough in my bank account (according to Gnucash) to buy a ticket from TicketMaster, and it was all done on my box so their server didn't have to know any of that stuff, that might be useful.

--