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Gnome/KDE Tutorials For Windows Users?
Aciel asks: "I recently decided to switch from Windows to Linux. I'd been held back by many things before (such as that my copies of Thief II, Quake III Arena, and Wheel of Time only ran on the former), but I was really ready to do it this time. But once I got Red Hat all set up, running Gnome, et cetera, I realized that I had no idea how to install anything. I of course knew about sites like linuxnewbie.com (and .org), but neither of them were really oriented towards people like me. One was oriented more towards programmers; the other towards idiots. But where to find a tutorial on Gnome, KDE, or Linux and X in general oriented towards people like myself, people with significant but not infinite computer DOS-based know-how?" If Unix (Linux/*BSD/etc) is ever to successfully woo users from Windows, something like this is a must.
"Everyone's always talking about how easy Linux is to use, and how much better it is. But then why can't I find a simple tutorial explaining the basics to me from a perspective I and other Windows users can understand? I'd love to learn--especially since I'm unwilling to shell out another 100 bucks for a newer OS that's slower than the one I've got (read: Windows ME)"
Once Linux does go mainstream, I'll probably use Windows.
Get off your snobby high horse. PLEASE. Jesus, treating windows users like idiots is like treating babies like retarded small blobs of DNA. YOU DON'T REALIZE THE POTENTIAL THAT THEY HAVE. I think once people (cough L33t uber Linux users) get used to this, they can b much more helpful. (posted anonymously due to the hassle of logging in)
/*
The victim in question here has chosen to use RedHat. This means that the 'idiot' tutorials are the correct ones for
this situation.
*/
The only 'idiot' is the person who, when presented with a RedHat machine, can't bend it to his/her will. Anyone who dismisses RedHat out of hand and chooses, say, Debian simply because it's "l33ter" is, in my book, unemployable and not worth anyone's attention.
This is my second Linux experience (RH7 now), and I'm much more impressed than I was with RH5.2. Gnome (and I assume KDE) enforce much more consistency than a raw X screen, and this is important. But simple info, like partitioning recommendations for various kinds of installations, how to make my keyboard behave like a Windows keyboard (yes, I left the ASR33 behind years ago), what to do when Netscape doesn't recognize Samba's "port 901" configuration aide, etc., is hard to find. I use Google extensively and usually find what I need, but after a great many false leads.
But Santa still came up short on a couple items:
1. A WYSIWYG editor that will run from a terminal screen, so I can edit XF86Conf when I screw it up and X won't start. Sorry, guys, but vi and emacs both suck bigtime for former Windows users!
2. A copy of Acrobat Reader in RPM form. Who are they kidding with this tar.gz stuff anyway?
Okay, I admit it: Windows has made me soft. But I'm not alone by a long shot!
"to remove a program
/path/and/program_name.rpm"
rpm -e
Actually, it's just "rpm -e program_name"
IMHO, a better answer to "what the heck do I do with this linux driver on disk?" is to follow the instructions in the README or INSTALL file that came with it.
There is a great site called The FreeBSD Diary that is exactly what this is about. The author of this site basically has numerous tutorials for all sorts of areas relating to the setup and maintanence of FreeBSD. Very helpful indeed.
Well, that's fine, but if you HAD the floppy drive and it was plugged in WRONG it would be a DIFFERENT, UNRELATED STORY (much like your reply.)
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
>Grr, I wish I had cluons to throw at every Lunix moron who posts here.
Yeah, but how many people use C64's these days? I doubt I'll ever try out Lunix, since I was never a C64 owner. Perhaps you meant Linux?
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
>LINUX USERS ARE NOT PROFESSIONALS, BUT THEY ARE PROFESSIONAL CRIMINALS!!!
Not only was that a poor attempt at a troll, but you failed to explain to me why I'm a professional criminal. You actually expect to throw around unsubstantiated rumors as fact, AND get clear, concise help from me? Fuck off.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
/*
think it's kind of silly to assume that we need a document that says if you do "this" in windows , you do "this" in
Linux.
Hmmm....so how do you propose to get Windows users over to Linux? Tell them to buy a distro, and RTFM?
*/
So how did these people learn about DOS/Windows? They just dick around until they figure out what works? No. They (people like my clueless father) get books on the subject and learn how to deal with the system. Is Windows 100% like a Mac? No? Then how the devil does Microsoft expect to take over the desktop marke....oh, wait.
The Linux world does NOT need to concentrate on turning Linux systems into Windows clones! You don't take the lead by following! If a distribution came about that supported hardware by installing Win32 drivers (supported, I guess, through Winelib), implemented a Win32-compatible Registry, and had a hacked version of KDE or GNOME that worked as a 100% clone of the Windows interface, it'd still be percieved as a piss-poor cheap-ass knock-off copy.
We need to WORK on EDUCATING people who want to try Linux, not leading them by the hand by making sure they don't have to learn anything new.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Erm, yeah.
You're comparing a new OS to an OS that's been around since the early 90s. When Linux was getting started, people were mousing around in Win3.1.
Get over it, people. Linux is based on standards which, when used, make a "standard" UNIX-like system. Microsoft more or less invented their own OS. Linux is not Windows. Stop expecting it to cater to you and turn into Windows just because you don't want to learn.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
I'm one of those people on the opposite side of the spectrum, and I only install windows on a machine once per year or less. As such:
What is add/remove programs? I've never used it before. I always just run the install/remove executables from the install media or install directory, which is roughly what you would do on linux. I once removed an icon for Microsoft Network so the stupid 'would you like to subscribe to microsoft networking now?' would go away on boot, and as a result I now get a bunch of dll warnings on boot. My net point here is that you can't just assume that this magical 'add/remove programs' thing is some magical super-useful feature that linux absolutely needs - if it were that cool, I'd have found it and used it instead of just deleting the icons outright.
While we're on this subject, how the hell do you add an icon to the desktop? I've never been able to figure that one out either. It's certainly not obvious to me how it would be done.
My biggest problem with autoexec.bat/startup was that not only did I not know how it worked, but anything that I really wanted to do couldn't be done there anyway. Hence, I never tried to use it. You seem to imply that any idiot can just go in and muck with autoexec.bat/startup and get the results they want - that is as patently false for windows as for linux init scripts.
Yeah, where the hell is dialup networking? I've never had dialup on a windows machine, only ethernet. That said, I've always had to configure everything under windows by hand, and it's a complete pain in the ass. Linux is definitely easier.
The device manager, while very good when it works, is just terrible when it doesn't. I'd definitely have to say that linux device management is much, much more sane. (Except for mice that inexplicably don't work, non-standard mice are a bitch.)
Almost none of my machines run the web server, because I turn it off after I do installs. On windows, you have to get a separate web server from somewhere else, so I've never installed one there. Linux typically installs the web server with default configs, so you were probably running one without even knowing it.
-dentin
Alter Aeon Multiclass MUD - http://www.alteraeon.com
I disagree - I have never found windows help to be terribly well organized or helpful.
This is all bogus. The only reason people ask "what is the equivalent of Add/Remove" is because Windoze has "add/remove". There is no reason for such low-level concepts to be visible to the user.
In my opinion "add" should be executed by clicking on that "run this kool new software" icon shown in your browser, and "remove" should be "stop using the software" (or perhaps you have to drag the icon that appeared on your home page to the trash to get rid of the way of rerunning it).
Why forcing the poor user has to know about "installing" a piece of software. They don't need such knowledge. All they want is "make the machine do this interesting thing". Just because MicroSoft does it does not mean it is user-friendly.
From a practical point, the way to do this is:
Get rid of over-reliance on dynamic libraries by static-linking the binaries to any libraries other than libc and Xlib that you know are on the machine. Or use object services so the program at run-time can complain and perhaps get from the net any missing services, rather than refusing to run with DLL error.
Make the programs work without any "configuration" files (by making them use default values when the files are missing and writing new files when the user saves a configuration).
Make the linkers insert simple binary files in as raw data, so we can imbed large quantities of data into a program without a stupid filter to turn them into C initializers.
There's a mistaken assumption that in order to "make it", one must cater to Windows users.
Maybe on a certain level this is true. But if you want a Windows-esque experience, use Windows.
Certain aspects of the GUI will probably be shared. But to completely duplicate the entire Windows UI is ridiculous.
I agree that there should be some fairly comprehensive tutorials for the "Too Smart for "For Dummies" crowd. But a familiarization is all they need, a boost along the learning curve. Not a redefinition of the learning curve.
I'm sorry, but Linux is, for most intents and purposes, Unix. Unix is obtuse, arcane, and very empowering to use. It requires a steeper learning curve than straight WIMP environments such as Windows.
It'd be a mistake to castrate usability in the name of "user friendliness".
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
My distro (Red Hat) came with distro-specific docs, including an Installation Guide, a Getting Started Guide, and a Reference Guide, all on the CD in HTML format. All you need is a browser and enough curiousity to actually look at the CD in a file manager. The "docs" directory is there in plain site.
Mandrake does the same thing and if the other major distros are significantly different, I'd be surprised.
Red Hat's Getting Started Guide along with a thick book on Linux is the way to get started on Red Hat for Windows users. I've learned over the years that the included docs are good for reference, but if you're learning something for the first time, buy a book. The vendor's docs may be good, but a book is usually more tutorial in nature.
Some of the things in Windows have equivalents in Linux or in some of the more popular window managers and/or desktop environments. Many others do not.
For instance the autoexec.bat analogous to rc.local but the startup folder is more like ~/.xinit or, in GNOME, the Startup Programs in GNOME Control Center. There may be a similar facility in KDE2. A proper description of the way each functions would easily be a page or so.
Some things are simpler. The Add/Remove Programs function is performed by your package manager. A basic static site or personal homepage can be setup using Apache just by putting the HTML in the correct directory. It pretty much runs out of the box.
Dialup Networking may be handled by distro or desktop specific tools, but a descript of the working of pppd and one or more generic tools would also be required for a comprehensive doc.
Device management would be a chapter by itself.
All of these functions are affected by user and permission features that are almost unknown in consumer versions of Windows. A lot of what Linux can do just does not have an equivalent in an out-of-the-box Windows install.
See the Linmodem HOWTO at http://www.linuxdoc.org.
> What is the equivilent of add/remove programs?
to remove a programto install a program
> What is the equivilent of autoexec.bat/startup folder?
There are two mechanisms which work in order:
- The file
/etc/inittab
- The whole directory structure below the path
/etc/rc.d/init.d
> Where is dialup networking?To get this completely automatic is quite a task, to start with use one of either vwdial or kppp.
> Where is device manager/what the heck do I do with this linux driver on disk? /lib/modules directory tree.
In the kernel
You put it in the modules collection in the
That trite I know, but we really need more detail
> How do you do this 'webserver' thing that linux is supposed to be so good at?
You load the Apache Server.
( SuSE has it installed as part of the system because they use it to drive their help system. )
If you do not know anything, I'd suggest getting somebody else to install and configure Linux for you. If you have to pay for the service, then so be it. You get what you pay for in this life. The main problem is simply that the people who are really good at expressing themselves in progam languages are, in general, not too good at expressing themselves in natural, or human, written language. Also the reverse applies, good writers are seldom superb programmers. That said, I wonder if the /. community would be interested in creating the Ulimate Linux Book?
Note: I'm not trying to start a flamewar (<-- READ :-)
Once Linux is ready for the mainstream, will it really suit geeks? Once all control of the operating system goes to 'the default setting work fine', is there really a way that one can make a server-oriented system perform better than a GUI-running-staroffice system?
Sure, one could split distributions and all of that, but in the end that would leave us with multiple kernel forks (not a Good Thing), quite a few more distros (depends on how you look at it), and more spread out and unmotivated developers (not ALL, but to the point of too many people saying 'I'm only doing this because they're paying me to').
And then what have we become?
I have used Linux for 3 years (along with Windows and Mac's for much longer).They all can suck at times.There is NO perfect O/S.
However-that being said-Linux sucks far less. I get alot of info and questions answered with dejanews and just plain bedtime reading!Que publishes a book called Using Linux that is my bible.If you want to really learn you have to be prepared to study and read.There are no shortcuts worth taking.If that slows Linux down on the average users desktop-so be it.
Frankly I believe Linux is ready right now for the average desktop.The problem is it has to come *pre-loaded* and ready to go like Windows and Mac's.That's the kicker.Until the average user can walk into their local computer super-store and see all the dual-boot machines loaded up and ready to go it's not going to happen!Plain and simple people will use whatever O/S is on the machine.
Tired of being another body in the flock? Linux ! We are not sheep anymore.
What I'm missing is somewhere to go and ask what I'd consider basic questions of an unusual nature. Such as, "Why does my FTPd-BSD have problems with PAM authentication?" or "Where are my LOG_FTP messages going?".
I can't just run onto IRC and ask it, because I'm told to either "read the docs" (thanks, did that, no help) or "search the web" (again, did that, no help) or met with stony silence. I'm loathe to keep asking friends to fix things on my system because I don't learn anything by it, and really would like to. :)
Amen. the 'running linux' book really helped me. The other one that did was the manual that came with my SuSE boxed set, some 300 pages (bigger than the O'Reilly book).
The SuSE book teaches all of the distro-specific tricks that make the little things easy (installing / removing software, network configuration, hardware configuration) using their tools (yast and yast2).
I think I need a new sig here.
My biggest beef with man is there's no way to get it up unless you already know what command/program you need to start. What if I need info on my webserver but don't know it's called httpd? It's not even called httpd on all bloody systems anyway...
--Gfunk
Send lawyers, guns, and money!
but if you know how to use your index finger and a mouse simultaneously, you're well on your way to mastering KDE and Gnome desktop managers. To gain a deeper understanding of Linux you need to learn command line. It's quick and empowering, and allows you to customise your operating environment in ways you could never when confined to a gui.
As for learning resources, HardcoreLinux is a site that doesn't rehash moldy tutorials and howtos. The content is exclusive to HardcoreLinux and is easy to follow. The book Sam's Teach Yourself Linux in 24 hours is also a good learning tool. It's got the right mix of gui and command line lessons and is perfect for a beginner.
SEO Copywriter. Just Say ON
As someone who started tinkering with Linux a while ago and who now became a professional Linux/Unix systems administrator, the only advice I can give you is: read, read, and read even things that are vaguely related to your problem. Seek and you will find. That Linux is easy to use is a myth. GNOME and KDE may be easy to use. Certain Linux distributions are easy to install. However, if you'd like to be able to use and maintain the system in the long run you should learn your distributions' as well as general Linux/Unix basics. I'd recommend reading "Running Linux" for anyone who considers using the system in the long run as well as the manuals (specially system administration related) that came with your distribution. Also, many specific questions can be answered by looking at the relevant HOWTO documents on the LDP site (www.linuxdoc.org). This is the way it is. Linux and Unix flexibility and stability come at a cost: learning curve.
One problem with man pages is that you have to know what you're looking for with a certain degree of accuracy.
To take your example, let's have a brief search for what happens at startup:
$ man startup
No manual entry for startup
$ man -k startup
vga_disabledriverreport (3) - makes svgalib not emit any startup messages
$ man boot
No manual entry for boot
$ man -k boot
[Yields 10 entries, the most useful of which is the scary bootparams page...]
$ man -k initialization
[Yields 38 entries, almost all about Tcl/Tk or curses...]
The problem with man is no so much that the information is not there, it's more that there's just a single page for all levels and types of reader, and it's damn difficult to find out which page you want to read anyway.
Two years ago a branch of Australian Personal Computer magazine publish the Linux Pocketbook, which covered Redhat Linux 5.2
It included Redhat and covered the move from windows to Linux with installation and how to set up a variety of servers. It was done in easy to understand language with little dillydallying.
The Second edition of the book, released a year later covered both Redhat 6.0 and Caldera 2.0.
The homepage for Australian Personal Computer magazine is http://apcmag.com
Never believe in anything until it has been officially denied. -Otto von Bismarck
>"Everyone's always talking about how easy Linux
>is to use, and how much better it is.
Whatchoo talkin bout Willis? Linux is better, more stable, powerful, reliable, and configurable, sure, but it's always been harder to use than Windows.
Right now, you still have to be willing to *teach yourself* a lot of what you need to know. Those wanting a push-button operating system (including many in this thread) should stick with Microsoft. If you want a better OS and you're willing to RTFM (HOWTOs, O'Reilly, etc.), then welcome aboard.
thellama
Have you tried kwrite? You may be missing out on a lot..
Yeah, you can set it to use any font available. The feature I like most is the syntax highlighting. While it's certainly no emacs, kwrite is very easy to use and gets the job done well.
They say there's a howto for everything and everyone - I haven't found the one which will explain women yet - but I did find this one a while ago: From DOS/Windows to Linux HowTo. It probably answers your question, but there should be more exposure for documents like this rather than idiots & programmers as mentioned.
How many people do you know that have had Linux as their very FIRST OS? (not saying that's a bad thing)
insignificant sig
No... there are the few of us that were born from a virgin mother penguin with "bash" tatooed across our forheads. *grin*
wolf31o2 Developer, Gentoo Linux Games Team
I've found man pages to be more helpful than Windows help. And a few good Linux books helps too. Sigh, the usual dilema of programmers writing documentation.
I am not a recent convert but if I were to pick a source or a book that put me "over the top", is the book, "Linux Administration: A Beginner's Guide".
; make install all of your programs, you will then realize that the way Windows installs programs is so archaic (yes, Sun Microsystems, this includes you as well re: StarOffice).
Like you (back with Linux 2.0.x), the only thing I was frustrated with Linux is not knowing how to install programs.
That book has an entire chapter dedicated to installing programs.
Once you get into tar -xzvpf program.of.choice-1.00.00.tar.gz;./configure;make
It is actually the way you install programs is part of the reason that Linux is superior to Windows. As a SysAdmin, it is hard as hell to push installs to Windows machine. With Linux workstation, I can easily telnet/ssh into the workstation, install, setup icons and defaults and exit: all without the user having to do shit and without having the user to reboot.
Can anybody name me 5 Windows programs that do not require you to reboot? Didn't think so.
ChozSun
ChozSun.com
On Debian, the package manager is "dselect". Once you learn the keyboard controls (not hard) it's easy.
--------
Genius dies of the same blow that destroys liberty.
The reason there is almost no documentation for people like you is because it's assumed that you will want to get a little deeper into the system and learn the CLI (command-line interface). This is probably what you want to do. Besides, unless you have a new machine, KDE/GNOME will be too slow for you (and even if you have a new box, it's still nice to have the extra speed).
Here's a quick list of useful commands:
Some packages you'll want to have a look at sometime:
Sorry, I have to cut this list short. Other duties are calling. Slashdotters: please fill in what I have missed!
--------
Genius dies of the same blow that destroys liberty.
So, stop whining. There is an old proverb, "it is better to light a candle than curse the darkness. If you see a need fill it, if you find something lacking make it better. That's what it's all about.
If you can't handle it go back to Windows(tm) or whatever platform you came from... Linux is not that hard to learn, especially if you are somewhat computer literate as the original questioner claimed.
--
--
"I think not," said Descartes, and promptly disappeared
On Usenet I mentioned recently that two major distros (SuSE & RH) don't even have the real used init scripts in the same place...:-( Despite desktop problems, that maybe solved, I just mentioned a few days ago, I can start diskusage_applet under KDE, and have now the KDE and the gnome panel toogether....:-)
I think distros should make special distros for desktop use, no uneeded services started would be a start. Windows user expect this dump klicking, the don't know about the massive power CLI can enable, or howto admin a multiuser, multitasking, multithreading, up to it's GUI network enabled, OS. The average windows user can't even control his Windows crap2001(tm). Very impotant IMHO is: Linux needs a good www browser, like IE is, one time they had some competition, and couldn't deliver the usual crap which might be repaired with the next service pack ~500 MB, or cost $$$ for the new shitload2003(tm)...:-))
Honestly, without a good browser Linux will have no chance. And I'm in doubt if I would like it, since most people know, I use linux only, I don't get, those "help support please" calls from friends who use windows, anymore.
Michael
I am currently pissed off at Microsoft because I sent them a customer support user request on Saturday and it is now Tuesday and I am still waiting.
So maybe in the Microsoft world people don't call help lines and receive it in a timely manner either.
"In this life, you're on your own" --Prince
Marjo Wycam, Master of the Programming Arts
<blockquote>Sometimes I actually don't want every joe 6 pack to be running linux. The prideful part of me says, "learn the goddamn system and stop complaining. And if you can't, puleeze go back to windows. Grandma shouldn't be anywhere near a linux box anyway." The human part of me (oh, pride IS human, Doh) says, "*sniff*, try these:"
</blockquote>
I'd say that the above comment expresses a good portion of the state of the world of unix/linux/open source. Those who participate or simply lurk on slashdot alone represent a vast diversity of experiences and interests with respect to Linux, et al. Some here are power users and like to tweak every knob available to them. Some get great pleasure out of digging and digging and learning every nook and corner of their system. Customization is king. Others are simply looking for a free(as in beer)/cheap unix or unix-like operating system that feels more like home than a windows system will ever be.
Some people are plain not interested in being hardcore system administrators. Believe it or not there are programmers who couldn't give a hoot about the underlying details of linux or any other operating system. They simply want a platform upon which they can do interesting work, possibly NOT related to systems programming, maintenance, etc.
Just recently I picked up a laptop and began the process of making it fit for my use. I spend a good portion of time reading email, surfing the web, and programming. I happened to get a Mac Powerbook G3 and a copy of Yellow Dog Linux, and I got quite an education during the process of setting up my system.
MacOS installs and reinstalls like cake. Even being unfamiliar with a Mac environment I repartitioned and reinstalled MacOS with an amazing amount of ease. Sure the install hides a lot of things from me, but I don't care because I didn't buy a computer to spend my time administering it. I bought it specifically to be more productive.
Installing Linux on the other hand was a less than smooth experience. The biggest barrier for me was getting PPP up. After searching for directions on the web, I found myself less than impressed with the hoops I was expected to jump through to get a connection set up after taking all of a minute to do so under MacOS. Sure the flexibility built into Linux is an advantage, but the inability to surmount that complexity out of the box will hinder Linux's adoption by those who simply want to be more productive. (on a side note, I eventually found a program called EZNET that made setting up a PPP connection from the command line trivial. I only wish my OS had come with it).
Something to keep in mind: menu bars and such are often a great way of slowing down someone who knows how to use a tool (ie, if you are familiar with Emacs ctrl commands, are you going to use Xemacs pull-down menus all the time?), but they can also be a great way of flattening the learning curve on a new tool. Perhaps menu options will only be used for a short time during the time one learns an application. Perhaps menu options oversimplify that palette of options that are available under the covers and can eventually be accessed directly. Regardless, these aids can greatly improve the user experience as one familiarizes oneself with a tool or environment. This possibly temporary crutch can make or break the popularity of a computer tool when it comes time for users to "vote with their feet."
For many, computers and operating systems are tools and only tools. Not works of beauty that must be inspected down to the bone. Not the equivalent of performance vehicles to be tweaked and fine tuned down to the last ounce of performance. Instead, they are meant to make life easier, and the higher the bar of entry, that is, the greater the amount of overhead necessary to bear before benefit is reaped, the less likely the tool is to be used.
Whoever is interested in bringing Unix to the desktop in a manner that is truly competitive with Windows will need to provide abstractions that hide the details of the OS while still making those knobs available to the interested. I'm very curious to see how Mac OS X intends to do just this. Many lessons could be learned here by anyone willing to follow.
There are only two kinds of programming languages: those people always bitch about and those nobody uses.
I've got a RedHat box that I actually use very rarely. It serves files, and it's been up for well over a year now, and besides updating Samba for Win2K compatibility and a few tweaks here and there, I have very little reason to touch the thing.
Now, I'm a decent enough geek - not the best, but I've seen worse - but I still just don't use Linux enough to A) really get in and learn it well and B) retain what I do learn. But I've got enough of a basic grasp of what's going on that I could do a LOT better with it if there were a place I could go that would JUST GIVE ME THE SYNTAX of what I want to do! I spend more time reading semi-useful man pages and pecking at the keys trying to guess my way around... all I want is a webpage that lists, short and sweet, common examples of syntax. How would I do XYZ? What would that look like? Yes, I know what XYZ *does*, just show me how it looks, dammit! I don't want to wade through a 15-pound book just to find the one line of syntax I need help with.
So that's what I find annoying about trying to move from Windows to Linux. I'm always delighted with how simple Linux is - once I spend three hours to figure out, oh, I had to put a space there, or put that in quotes, or it's "route add default gw", not "route add gw", or you just edit this line in foo.conf, or whatever. There's all kinds of conceptual information out there, and lots of man pages, but not much in the way of a quick and practical reference guide... that I've found, anyway. Suggestions, anyone?
If you're also wanting to do something besides more of the same, you might also be interested in the WMX or WM2 window managers at (http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/wmx/ and
http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/wm2), and also the Lyx document processor (http://www.lyx.org), which has absolutely nothing to do with your request. Be careful, WMX is MUCH nicer when you edit the header files and strip out stuff like pixmap, and "New"
The bofh might run deep within my blood, but... sometimes I think that maybe the Linux community would not benefit from more newbies. Every day, at least once, I see someone come on #debian and ask some really horrible question, in full ansi color glory, and flood it, or something else like that. Linux is dangerously approaching (if it isn't there allready) the sad state of things when it reaches Critical Popularity Mass, like that whole pokemon thing... when something becomes so popular it starts to suck. sigh.
I know a large number of people who switched over to Linux and had no problems installing it, or even using it. Their major problems came when they found some neat bit of software and then realized it only ran on Windows. Or, like myself, they hated Netscape. Or they hated the lack of games. Or they hated KDE/Gnome (because even though most people will flame me for this, the Windows GUI is more refined, even if the OS under it is junk.
I for one went straight to FreeBSD. But I didn't dare do it on my only system, and I wouldn't recommend anybody else do so, either. At the bare minimum they should set up a dual-boot system.
Those wanting to switch to some form of Unix should consider doing so on a spare machine. That way their Windows boxes, Macs, or Amigas can remain in service while they grow accustomed to the changes.
There's nothing worse than sitting down to do something that would've been a breeze on your OS of choice, and then realizing you can't because you either don't know how or don't have the software to do it on the new OS. Oh, of course you could just look the answer up, but that's not the point.
People don't like being new to anything, and if they install a new OS under which they'll spend more time aimlessly pointing and clicking or typing in an incomprehensible shell than they spend actually being productive or playing, they won't notice, or even care, that the OS they are now running is (supposedly) superior.
-=-
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
I've had a love and hate relationship with Linux. I'd install it, muck around with it, find something that really impresses me, the uninstall it. Then, when the next Red Hat release comes around, I'd get the CD, install it, muck around it, find something new, fudge up on compiling something, and uninstall it. The reason being is that there's so much work to be done (setting up this and that config file, whatnots) in the beginning that I just lose interest.
I hear good things about Debian. I hear good things about KDE2.0 and Konqueror. I hear good things about Apache and mod_perl. I want to get down with all of this. But there's some stuff that I just couldn't be bothered with, and it pisses me off.
True!
Starting from zero, windows is arcane and badly organised. It doesn't get better as you dig deeper. At least Linux is comparitively better constructed internally.
My wife had NO computer knowledge ("how do you make capital letters?") and started with GNOME on Linux. No real problem. Now she gets frustrated when she has to use a Windows box.
It is unreasonable (even if desirable in this case) to build into the UI of an OS that it be easy coming from an OS with a different UI!
There is a learning curve, obviously. It will take a few weeks. There are books. You have to read them.
Evan Reynolds evanthx@hotmail.com
Evan Reynolds evanthx@hotmail.com
Two peanuts crossed the street. One was assaulted.
But thats not the point. The point here is how do we get Windows users easily integrated with linux. No offense to the community, but i have found myself, and others, somewhat shunning those who use the dastadly OS. I was once in their shoes and i know how it feels, kinda like you a drowning. Another problem that has creeped up are the Redhat Haters. Let it go guys, its an easier way for people to learn how to us Linux, and eventually they will learn that it sux ass. Man pages are a start, but isn't the goal of all this desktop development to get windows users to put down their microsoft mice and turn to the light with out having them go blind with confusion?
It seems to me that some of the community wants to help win users turn around, while the other part is too condensending to help, they don't want "newbies" to infringe on their Linux fun. This attitude must go if we are to lift Linux from crypticysim, and allow EVERYONE to enjoy its free, configurable, goodness.
thx
crypticysim.... not a word is it?
Congratulations! You have essentially reinvented the World Wide Web and Windows Help!
- "It's just a matter of opinion!" - PRIMUS
ok before I get flamed to death...I run FreeBSD for mail/proxy and kde2 with kdemail as my mail client of choice. But, I use Windows for browsing and games and it's a substantial but.. I didn't have to buy a book to get windows up and running and I shouldn't have to for "unix" type os's.
ALL the relevant info should be in readily digestable format on the cd and there should be, in very large letters.. , instructions as to how to create a bootable disk so that when your install has failed you can still get back to the cd to find out what the hell you did wrong.
Show me the entry that says how to start kde! It took me bloody ages to find it.
When I installed Linux for the first time about 10 years ago, I bought "Running Linux". I've never needed another book.
oh yeah....Mandrake has some interesting walk throughs...
The LDP has a vast library of HOWTO's and Guides. I think they are fairly easy to understand, even if you don't have a good knowledge of all the aspects of Linux.
some people actually have work they need to get done with a computer....I would really like to understand what you just said: "Anyone who dismisses RedHat out of hand and chooses, say, Debian simply because it's "l33ter" is, in my book, unemployable and not worth anyone's attention." but I have work to get done....and so does my boss who will fire my a** if I don't get my work done. There's a "division of labor" in computing. My boss only knows spreadsheets. I have a handle on more technical things... but honestly....*Linux has to be easier than Windows 98, excel, etc* to win the battle. I hope it does! But right now, Bill Gates has a better grasp of what the average user...like my boss...needs and wants....
I realize this probably isn't going to be modded up, due to the fact that there are so many other comments here, so I'll be brief. The reason Linux isn't getting the userbase it deserves is simple. People are more accustomed to Windows (and, by extension, DOS, but that's changing with Whistler . . .).
/dev/whatever entries.
/dev/whatever majornumber minornumber". Edit this config file. These settings do this, this, and this. Have fun."?
Windows is everywhere. If schools aren't using Macs, what do you have? It's certainly not any UNIX variant. What is the official corporate world OS? Windows, at least for the desktops.
Because Windows has such a large userbase, it's profitable for companies to make tutorials for it, but not for Linux. Linux's user base is still somewhere in the "rounding error" category. It's not going to grow, either, unless someone writes docs for people who are somewhat familiar with other operating systems, such as Windows and DOS. The tutorials that assume the reader knows every line of code in the kernel and those that help the user find the "on" button are both going to be too verbose for the average joe. What needs to happen is for someone to write a manual for people who can list every piece of hardware in their systems look up the chipsets/module files for their hardware and modify the relevant config files and create
How about, just, "To do this, type "mknod
I'm not sure if this is obvious or not, but if you have a good bit of free time, reading through posts on /. (on usage of linux for whatever reasons) might help. Even if you don't know exactly what's going on, you at least get exposure to the terms and methodologies.
/. is that there are a lot of people here posting things that are only partly accurate (or just plain nonsense). As a newbie it might be hard to filter those out. Therefore I think a newbie would learn more by reading Freshmeat or debianHelp or something and read slashdot for entertainment purposes only.
A problem with a newbie reading
If there is hope, it lies in the trolls.
You do raise some very interesting points here, but i'm a bit worried about one of them:
"I think this will only succeed if the people who now work on Linux (i.e. program on the kernel, window managers and other key system items) change their focus from the "all knowing geek who wants to control every freaking byte of his system" towards the more mainstream average kinda user, who needs/wants help along the way."
Making it easier to use is (IMHO) a good goal, but do we really want to lose the very customisability(?) that we love and that people are switching to linux for?
Do any of you Windows programmers out there know why Win2k *still* requires reboots for nearly everything? Is it something fundamental in the Windows design, or is MS too arrogant to take some pointers from other OSes?
-Legion
The first time I tried to install SuSE, a couple of years ago, I remember that most of the documentation was in German and the English docs were pretty crappy. Is that still the case?
As for asking "self-proclaimed linux gods" questions, you'd be better off asking someone who doesn't pretend to know everything. Some of the self-proclaimed linux gods I know of would be more than happy to make something up on the spot to look smart. On the other hand, I find that the people who admit that they don't know everything will at least try to help you find an answer, if only to find out for themselves.
-Legion
That's totally not true, I've had a 95, 98, and ME on a machine with no floopy drive and never had an issue.
--
Free Mac Mini
Wow, not bad.. How'd you get access to Exchange, plus beable to play all those great Windows games that don't have linux ports?
Not to sound like an ass but if you can get Linux running fine, I'm sure you could have installed Windows the right way and not have it crash all the time.
--
Free Mac Mini
It's very difficult for a computer savvy person like myself to make the switch. I played with RH 6.1 over a year ago. I was all excited to try an alternative OS on my system. Keep in mind I was no computer newbie, just a linux newbie.
I checked my hardware- everything was standard and supported. Voodoo card, SB 16, ATA 66 hard drive, 440bx mobo with a P3-450. Installation was breeze simply because I had two hard disks. I wasn't afraid of partitioning, but having two hard disks was great. Lilo worked great the first time I ran it. No complaints for installation.
Unfortunately, once I got RH running, with Gnome nad Enlightenment, I didn't know what to do. Sure Netscape worked great, and my network card was supported instantly. So I tried to download some commonly used programs- in this case LICQ. This is the part where savvy Windows/Dos users will have a problem. Coming from a long background in DOS, I had never heard of gcc or compiling programs before installing. Sure mkdir is easy enough to learn, but there rae no tutorials for installing such software. LICQ's page was nice in that it had simple directions to install software, however the installation depended upon other packages being installed, which I as a new user, had no clue. I was faced with the task of trying to install the packages again from the RH cd. All of these packages, like gcc and such, I believer were under the development section. I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd need to install development packages to simply install a program. I was tempted to format and reinstall everything included on the CD, just to make sure I wasn't missing anything that would keep me from installing stuff.
RPM's were much better, but still kind of screwy.
The point is Linux is quite easy to install. But installing software without having to edit text files or compiling things is not something a savvy Windows User would expect to have to do. It's frustrating, time consuming, and makes the new Linux user want to give up. Just some thoughts froma non-Linux-developer/geek who was in the same situation as the poster.I also am trying to learn Gnome/Linux ... I know my way inside out Windoze and DOS (including redirection, doskey, and other command line goodies that DOS stole from UNIX), but do not know how to do much of anything aside from basic GUI commands after a friend set everything up for me.
I have both "Running Linux" and "Linux in a Nutshell" from O'Reilly, but those don't help me as much as some graphical guide for a DOS/Windoze guru like myself.
Use my userscript to add story images to Slashdot. There's no going back.
The solution is not just a better installation manual, it's better software design.
The first time I tried to install Linux, it was from an early version of Suse. I was pretty much hopeless with computers a the time--I managed to wipe my harddrive out not once, but three times. However, in light of the horrible Suse manual and my own ignorance experimentation was the only way to learn.
That said, here's some of the things I learned from the experience:
One other thing: as soon as you get up and running, one of the first things you should learn about if you're on a network is SECURITY. You've got this nice box: now lock it up tight so it stays yours. The first time I installed Red Hat I had no idea what services (or even what a 'service' was. .
Hope this helps at least some. Good luck!!
-s
- - - - - - - -
Don't worry, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep in a giant blender.
I'm going to add on there, becuase I'm sure it would be pointed out by others, that Debian's apt-get system works wonder for upgrading "3rd party" packages. Also I don't want to count out the BSDs out here because their (or maybe it's just FreeBSD)'s "ports" system works quite well.
I have used neither, but I am aware of their existence, and if what I hear is true they're leaps and bounds above everybody else there.
Justin Buist
I've always been a bit irked by the idea that there needs to be a MS Windows to Linux translation guide. I just don't "get" it I suppose.
When I ran Win3.1 for a while, way back when, and then got a new machine with Windows 95 on it, I was stumped. I didn't have a Windows 3.1 -> 95 guide, I just poked around and made it work. They acted different, that's expected.
I made the jump to Linux like most people, after using Unix in college for a while. I was geeked, it was an OS that made sense to me again. I like the command line -- sue me.
I'm confused as to why people want this "windows to linux" translation thing still. So what if you mastered Windows 98? How much of that carries over to how a Linux desktop operates? Proably not much.
I'd personally like to see more research done on taking computer illeterate people and plopping them down in front of a properly configured Linux desktop and a properly configured Windows desktop. Then ask them to update everything on their system. Honestly, with Windows, I still cannot do something like this. With linux, I can -- I've been using helix-gnome lately, and I'm uber-impressed. If you want to stay bleeding edge their tools no longer work, but if you want to stay current with what Helix has approved it's a piece of cake. You don't have any way, without a bunch of 3rd party tools to upgrade all your apps in Windows -- you do with Linux, however.
I admit that the learning curve _might_ seem higher in Linux -- it's more complex. But for somebody who wants a pre-packed self maintaining system I think Linux as a desktop is kicking the pooh out of Microsoft Windows there.
Honestly, I can sit computer illerates down in front of my workstation, and they can get around with it. I've had people stop by asking if I have AOLIM that they can use -- yes I do, gaim... and they have no trouble using it. Launch my MP3 player and use it? no problem for them.
I think that the crowd Linux entices is that of the "power user" group, who are are quickly dismayed when they could do it in Windows, but not in Linux. What about the others though? They cannot do a thing in either -- which one is easier to understand for them? I think that's where the real question lies. I realize that this is not a likely scenario, but it is possible in the future.
I was personally _very_ happy to see that AOL was making a version for Linux, I can only hope that this comes to be true. I've never used AOL, nor do I really support them, but the idea is simple. They make an AOL client for Linux, slap it on a CD with the entire OS ready to support it and viola -- AOL and a usable computer in a box. Perhaps the Linux crowd will throw some flack at me for saying this but I would love to see people able to come out of a Best Buy or CompUSA with a machine entirely Microsoft free -- instead they would have their pre-configured AOL client running on top of Linux, and probably a plethora of applications for them.
It's a bunch of random ideas, I know... but perhaps some of them make sense.
Justin Buist
Hey Sport -- newsflash for you. The whole purpose of the article was to ASK if there were any good sources TO READ about installing software, configuring Gnome, etc.
How about reading the original post before criticizing people.
Gentoo Linux http://gentoo.org/
Biggest help for me...
:-)
Was not wondering where I could find help.
Sit down and play with stuff! Get familiar with the system
Tinker try this command and that.
Reenforce your tinkering/experimentation with a few HOWTO's and maybe the odd book or two here and there
Its not like writing assembler!!!
You can play around read manpages, play with stuff, read a few howto's thumb through a book for a particular chapter.
I will admit some tasks are daunting, big ones being getting a good HD partioning shceme, dual booting OS, and getting X up and running, nothing else posed a significant challenge for me (YMMV)
I didnt sit there and read a book, im not a genius I just learend it through experimentation and thuming through a book on how to do something specific.
Its not a black art and im really not trying to sound eliteist either
it is just a matter of playing around and DONT be afraid to use the system and mess it up, its your first install heaven knows we all have trashed an installation or two beyond recognition.
Thats what holds so many people back, they see this complex computer in front of them, and beyond MS word they just freeze afraid to click anything for frea it may explode, dont be afraid
Jeremy
"Look at windows help, it's very easy and searchable, and they are a million intro to's, classes, cdroms etc."
Please, don't set Linux documentation aspirations by reference to the Windows Help "system." It certainly falls flat in the area of searching the Help system. Yes, you can do searches, but only within the particular help file you're in. That's a weakness, because the typical user won't know what Help file they should be in unless they already know what Help file they should be in.
A decent Help system should, at minimum, allow a single search to query all Help files. It might even go further by allowing "fuzzy" searches, searches using "stemming," and other basic techniques of advanced search engines.
Going a step further, we might even see options to easily display the help screen as a reduced size window so Help is displayed along with the app being used, with a hot key for toggling between Help and the app.
A decent Help system might also force some protocols to be followed, rather than allowing Help authors to be different, which is the way the Windows Help authoring systems work. That would save users the distraction of learning the "system" employed in a given Help file. One of the big advantages of existing Linux Documentation Project systems is that they employ a common DTD, something eschewed by WinHelp. A Linux Help system needs to capitalize on the strengths of what has already been done, not repeat the errors of the WinHelp system.
WinHelp also does not recognize the extra power that could be realized if Windows had anything comparable to the LDP; e.g., the LinuxHelp system could easily extend to LDP online files. Yes, I know that WinHelp allows hyperlinks, but there is no body of Windows knowledge gathered that is comparable to the LDP.
All of this can be done now on Linux, but only through customization of default installed Help systems. That kind of customization work needs to be done at the distro level, not be left to the users who need Help the most.
But thanks for taking one snippet of my original post out of context.
Happy New Year.
Well, what I do is encourage people whom I know to buy a distro. Then I get them to pick me up a case off beer, go to their place and sit down for an afternoon.
It works suprisingly well. I think if you want to promote activism you need to affect people one at a time.
Now consider, what is more effective? You and I writing up a 'linux is X = Windows is Y' doc or you and I talking to people we know, hangin' for an afternoon and showing the tricks of the trade? I have personally converted 14 people to Linux. I think I practice active Linux promotion. If every Linux user did this, numbers would swell....
Think of it. But I always let them start it themselves, then help them through the roadblocks. Only after they read the docs.
But in order to get gaim or establish a net connection, you damn well should understand what /etc/resolv.conf and ifconfig do for ya.
No one implied that you were stupid. And there are tonnes of things you can do to pick up linux quickly. Seriously I doubt that you purchased Suse Professional. The book is very clearly laid out in a step by step fashion. Purchasing this distribution will facilitate your learning, hell, Suse even provides 90 days of telephone support for free. You can sit on a toll free line with someone that will walk you through each and every step, for as long as it takes.
Once you buy it, then use the services they offer, I think you'll totally change your tune.And yes, Linux is free, but free comes with a different cost (you gotta answer all your questions yourself -- did you purchase every copy of windows you've ever used? Then hmmm...did you call microsoft support with that burned version? *grin*), and what you get with purchasing a Linux distro is alot more than microsoft ever did for anyone in terms of support
Inherently Linux is hard, its an incredibly complex *nix system. Usage is not hard to set up. If you use the resources available to you.
I believe that the best people to decide what needs to be in documentation are the people who are learning to use it themselves. People who have experience will find it very easy to leave out a small but vital stage that prevents the entire HOWTO from working correctly.
So I would suggest that somebody (I don't have time for another project) set up a site (maybe a sub section of linuxdoc.org) for DUN = this or that or that and this is how you use them, and that all the submitted material is tested or written by newbies.
Until the fully searchable tutorials are built in, I've found that the best way to learn a new environment (usually different OSs; I've got FreeBSD and OpenBSD running at home now) is a simple solution:
Have more than 1 box.
I do the work on one machine, and surf the websites (and google.com) from another when I have a problem while installing. A P133 is dirt cheap these days, and a great testbed-- you *WILL* botch the first few installs of a new OS.
Nathan Mates
There ARE howtos on compiling stuff/installing software.. so, stfu.
Ummm..... try debian (if you haven't) all your issues with rpm will be gone.
-jef
CDE is on its way out. Sun and HP have adopted Gnome as the default user interface starting next year for their Unixes. So there is a good chance that both HP and Sun are putting engineering time into making Gnome intuitively easier to change.
Personally though, I never liked CDE. I've been living in Gnome now for over a year, and I don't have a problem tweaking anything. Making desktop links, changing desktop icons, changing the menu listings, all without reading any man pages. I would suggest you go get the latest version of Helix Gnome, and run the Sawfish window manger with it. Sawfish is more point and click configurable then Enlightenment. -jef
linux documentation project
rute
In a RedHat distro
or just in
Gnome User Info:
the gnome-help-browser command will let you access the gnome user guide once gnome is installed on yer system.
or try www.gnome.org
Installing Gnome
Gnome Helixcode website
My catchall help source is Google's Linux Search I can't comment on any general purpose linux help books, becuase I haven't used any.
-jef
Yeah, Linux really needs an equivalent of the "control panel" in windoze, where all the different config utils are bunched up. Linuxconf is good for some things, but completely skips over others. Mandrake has some "drakconf" stuff, but it also skips over many things. This stuff is different from distro to distro, and is never documented. I really don't like that: not all users like to edit text files that are in some strange format. And the printed manuals generally suck, because they completely skip over lots of stuff. That's also why I like things like RPM: they make administration of the system easier for windoze users.
Constant learning and reading is necessary to use advanced features of any OS. Getting started using an OS requires reading. As questions of others. If someone suggests some reference to read, do read it. Then come back and get anything clarified.
Two of the most useful newbie commands are man and locate/updatedb. Locate is best used to find the location of that obscure config file.
Best of luck to new users. Remember: read, read!
"Drug related crime" is a misnomer, "prohibition related crime" is the more accurate and correct phrase.
but there is an innate satisfaction when you figured out a solution for a problem by yourself. And no, I don't want a "x in Win = y in Linux" dumbed down manual. Linux/BSD/Unix is too powerful for such simplification and if you don't know WHY you need/want Linux, maybe it's not for you quite yet. O'Reilly books and trial and error is the way to go. I am running RH7/Gnome and FreeBSD 4.2/KDE (and NT for work).
do you mean the linux gamut?
I've always held that there are significant language barriers to this sort of endeavor.
The distributed nature of Linux development doesn't lend itself as well to easy-to-use documentation, I think. A German hax0r working with an app written in Norway documented in English by a British dude... hmmm...
Add to that the colloquial syntax, slang and other such expressions involved in our culture (RTFM and other bretheren), and you've got an even more daunting task.
Documentation is a laudable, important undertaking, but it's a time-intensive, generally unfun task that involves making lots of culturally-centrist decisions.
Not saying this to disuade, but only to hypothesize on why it doesn't already exist.
PDHoss
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Writers get in shape by pumping irony.
A few weeks ago I had an idea of making a page with Linux tips and stuff, based on my own experiences -- I switched to a Linux-only configuration this year (was a long time DOS [and consequently Windows] user), so I think passed recently through all those things the poster was referring to.
I have already got together some material: some random tips on configuration and programs and a few little scripts (even some "one-liners") I came up with that really ease my life in the command line.
And of course, if anybody would like to help me out on this I'd appreciate a lot!
Check it out: Living with Linux
-- Lode
--
"I'm looking through you, where did you go?"
...I must say, is mcedit.
:)
You probably already have it, it comes with the Midnight Commander (so, if you don't have it, install mc). I personally don't like MC that much, since I was a DCOM user (not Windows DCOM, the old "Directory Commander" -- I liked it so much I'll probably clone it to Linux someday) but it's worth installing MC just to have mcedit.
I even have an "alias edit=mcedit" (old habits...)
It uses the "Borland keys" (Shift-Del cuts, Shift-Ins copies, Ctrl-Ins pastes, Shift-arrows select), so using mcedit to program in Free Pascal feels like using good ol' Turbo Pascal -- but in full object-oriented multithreaded multitasking 32-bits glory!!!
--
"I'm looking through you, where did you go?"
I think the headline was misleading. The poster probably meant configuration stuff, such as XF86Config, modules.conf, bashrc, etc. (Oh maybe THAT was why the directory is called /etc!!!)
He's asking about GUI stuff (GNOME/KDE) because where he comes from these things are configured in the graphical environment -- he might have heard about all those advancements in the user interface Linux had lately and thought it had already got to this stage.
--
"I'm looking through you, where did you go?"
I'm a couple of years on from my first tentative steps in GNU/Linux, and I can assure you you won't regret the move. I originally set up my PC as a multi-boot NT/95/Debian box, then when I bought a new games PC, my old one went exclusively Debian. Now my games PC is dual-boot, and if it weren't for Diablo II, my last Windows partition would be a distant memory.
I haven't used KDE, so I can't comment, but in my experience GNOME as a desktop environment adds little to usability. The GNOME/Gtk+ libs are good for developers (if only someone would document the Perl bindings properly), and provide a nice standard look-and-feel, the CORBA stuff may one day turn out to be useful, but that damn footprint thing, and the associated bells and whistles add nothing but about half a minute to x startup time. I spent about a year with the footprint, waiting for 'apt-get upgrade' to finally give it some discernable purpose, but eventually gave up. Seriously, there are some good things about the GNOME project, but the sooner you comment out exec gnome-session in your .xinitrc file, the better. A good window manager like Enlightenment is all the desktop eye candy you could ever want.
Read the From DOS/Windows to Linux HOWTO. On Debian it's found at /usr/share/doc/HOWTO/en-txt/DOS-Win-to-Linux-HOWTO .txt.gz. It shouldn't be far away on other distros.
Most of what you will need to know can be found in the HOWTOs or man pages. Best/quickest way to read HOWTOs is:
cdgunzip -c DOS-Win-to-Linux-HOWTO.txt.gz |less
If that seems like a lot of typing, refer to this HOWTO for why it isn't.
To supplement the online docs, you may want to get O'Reilly's 'Running Linux'; also 'Linux in a Nutshell' is good on those occasions when you know there's a command to do such-and-such, but you can't remember what it's called. The 'apropos' command is also helpful here (in fact you'll save time if you use 'apropos' before reaching for a book). Your distribution-specific docs should also get at least a skim-through
If you really want to get to know your system, I'd recommend you resist the temptation to do everything in X windows. Steer clear of GUI configuration tools unless the docs for the relevant package explicitly ask you not to edit config files by hand.
Go for a wander about your hard drive, looking at your directory structure and what goes where. The Filesystem Hierarchy Standard for POSIX-compliant systems is also helpful for explaining the rationale behind the directory heirarchy. Last I heard, Red Hat doesn't conform to the standard (Debian does, of course), but that may have changed.
Once you've started settling in, you'll need a good text editor and web browser. Forget the vi versus emacs debate. FTE is a thing of beauty, and I can't understand why it isn't raved about more often. I had a friend who installed GNU/Linux purely on the strength of this cool text editor he'd seen me use. It's easy for Windows users to pick up, and in a lot of cases has Windows-style key bindings (Ctrl-c, Ctrl-v) as well as Unixy ones (Ctrl-Ins, Shft-Ins).
Web browser. You'll want Mozilla, so you'll also need one that doesn't suck up all your memory and crash. Links (not Lynx), is jaw-droppingly brilliant. Runs in text mode, yet displays tables and frames. Supports cookies, launches helper apps, has right-click context-sensitive menus, and so on. Good for those occasions when you've stuffed up X-windows and you need to search www.deja.com for a fix.
Now you've got a web browser up and running, check out:
are all in my menu by default. That being said, the menu is still weird, all the good stuff isn't in the gnome menu structure, but off 'programs'. i really miss the active destop in win because you could right click or just drag any item in the start menu to anywhere else (and the debian menu is very full of stuff i have yet to use). point and click isn't always stupid, when i adminster the box it's through an eterm (or alt-f1) and ssh, but when i 'use' linux to browse the web or play with toys it would be much nicer if the gui was better. for some things it is better tho, cut-and-paste for example is simpler than windoze-- highlight the text you want to copy, and middle mouse button where you want to paste what's highlighted (both buttons at once for 2button mice)
the main thing i've learned about linux, is that it's an OS without arbituary limits... 'cd /usr/local/n* takes me to /usr/local/notesdata on the webserver over there in the corner-- the one without a monitor or keyboard... in windoze there is vnc and pcanywhere, the same functions are native to X... oh look my drive doesn't have room for programx, hmmm well a symlink to another harddrive, and now it does (like when you set /var as it's own small partion and then grab a stack of packages)
windoze really is just a window to the internet, linux is like being part of the internet, it's incredibly easy for me to loose track of which box im at.
on the flip side some tasks still have me fumbling about and feeling like a stupid monkey: configuring a printer so that i can print this page, getting sound to work, installing a cd-burner or a zip drive, recompiling the kernal, isapnptools, ... there's HOWTO's for all of that, and are fully possible, but nowhere near as easy as in windoze.
point and click to install setup.exe is way easier than untarring, compiling a download, and building icon shortcuts; and dselect is way way easier than point and clicking a setup.exe. (and the dependcy conflicts are way easy to 'enter' through than clicking through an install)
for me, the ten best things about linux are:
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At any rate, I did have one thought about learning Linux. I posted this, but it's way down the page and you probably haven't seen it. So jump down to this comment if you want to read it.
"Research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing." -- Wernher von Braun
Oh really? To name some of the applications that I had to manually enable in the menu: gedit, gnutella, quake, tux racer, x-racer.
I actually heard about this central menu sysem in Debian but it doesn't seem to work for me (running Woody BTW). F.e. the distribution menu show a nice Debian logo but is totally empty. Strange eh?
Monkey sense
I always found IRC to be my best resource for finding quick answers. It's best if you know some people but most computer oriented IRC channels devoted to Linux should have someone willing to help you out.
What if you just took some frame grabs of a 'windows9x' ish os and stuck it in html, make it in to a image map and have it take you to a specific help page when you click on specific sections. This doesn't sound to bad, and would only take a few hours. Although i think some one more experianced than I should do it... It wouldn't be very hard to 'convert' a 'how-to run linux' guide in to this format
Seany
"Where ever you go, there you are"
These two books were a huge help when I started.. Red Hat Linux 6 and UNIX both of these books are very easy to read and I've seen them at Borders and Walden Books or even order off the web site. They are very well worth the money.
AK
I would suggest Oreily's Running Linux. For me was the best guide to get into linux at the beggining after being used to windows like enviorment, it covers all the main tasks u need to perform from installation to mantainence of ur linux box
Caldera released a CBT (Computer based training) for their OpenLinux eDesktop. You can buy the package that includes the CBT with a windows CD that will give you a short tutorial on installing the OS. The CBT Box also includes a CD that will autoinstall OpenLinux onto your computer with minimal user input. It automatically configures your computer to run both linux and windows. I had wanted to get into linux for a long time, but having used windows and DOS for my entire life, i wasn't quite ready for a radical change. My mom bought me the package with the CBT and the Linux Install disk. I had an extra computer onto which i installed linux and now it works perfectly. I haven't tried the windows/linux side-by-side feature because my old crap ass computer doesn't handle windows well. go for the caldera package. I also has options for different uses which install packages such as home desktop use, office use, server use, and all that so that you don't have to go through the trouble of installing programs one by one. also, the install program lets you play pacman while you install. That was a good idea on their part. definitely go for Caldera's OpenLinux.
-"Hey, Baby. It's not a rash, it's textured love."
I get this question every other day.
If you want to get Unix/Linux understanding, buy this old book:
The UNIX Programming Environment, Brian W. Kernighan & Rob Pike, Pretence Hall Software Series, ISBN 0-13-937681-X.
Do NOT worry about the age ! Unix is old !
If you want a fast solution for a specific question, gimme an email.
If you want something inbetween, go here.
Good Hunting,
george./
The problem with these questions is that they are all in terms of the way Windows does it. That woudln't be SO bad, except most of the people you're looking to guide didn't acutally understand how it worked on Windows either, so a comparison is pretty useless. Do you know how the startup folder and autoexec works? Do you now what's acutally happening when you use device manager in Windows? If not, then comparisons will be useless, cause all you know is a UI, and the UI is different.
Good points. I agree that a newbie who needs these sorts of things should definately go witha a purchased packed distro complete with support. That's why those things exist.
It's sort of like one of the big problem with PCs through the 80s and 90s IMHO... you could buy cheap parts and slap them together into a system. Some people who did that were tinkerers who enjoyed doing that -- for them it was the right thing. Others figured that was the way to do it, and didn't understnad they were playing with cheap stuff... stuff that wouldn't always work. Those people should have bought tested Gateways or Dells and stuck with them rather than suffering though lots of incompatible parts cobbled together.
If you're not going to look too far under the hood, buy a prepackaged solution.
User: How do I do X?
Linux Geek: Well, you can use A, or B, or you can try C but that's still in beta, D is good if you want to do X1, but E is better if you're doing X2...
User: AAAAAHHHH!!!! I just want to do X, stop confusing me!
Yes, this goes against the "best tool for the given job" concept that rules in Linuxdom, and is a fairly good way to work overall. But, it's not what the average consumer wants to hear or can cope with. Yes, we can talk about "educating" the computing masses, but that is not going to go all that far unless what you're teaching them is far easier. You can "educate" a SMALL percentage of the population in Multi-Variable Calculus, but you can't do that until they've taken advanced Algebra, Trgonomitry, and Single-Variable Calculus. Most HowTos, and even most help pages and people in #Linux et al, aren't useful unless you've already had the Single-Variable Calculus analogy, which most people haven't.
People don't want to know how to tweak the engine in their car, they just want to drive to work. Most people don't want to recompile their kernel, they just want to write a paper for school and send an e-mail. In Linux, that's not an option. In an era when many if not most Windows users do not understand the concept of a directory or drive (or at least not except as abstract manilla icons on their screens), how can we hope to explain mounting multiple dive partitions to them? How can we turn them into Linux geeks, regardless of how much educating we do? Linux is still a geeks-only project.
Unfortunately, a major part of the solution is something that most Linux people will automatically rebel against instinctively: Standardization. OK, fine, we've got 2 or 3 or 12 word processors. That's great. But before Linux can really catch on with the Windows-using public, far more has to be standardized.
That means a common, universal installer and package manager, with a graphical wizard-like front end, used by ALL distributions and ALL program authors, that automatically installs an icon in your KDE/GNOME menu. Tarballs may be great for geeks, but you remember the trouble your parents and uncles had with DOS. That means an end to REQUIRING that something be distributed and installed via source. Say the word "compile" to your average person and they automatically think "advanced task like open heart surgery" and run the other way. Even just rebuilding a SRPM is beyond them, conceptually. And getting them past that is not going to happen en masse, until Linux reaches critical mass and is available pre-installed at Best Buy, maybe not even then. (Chicken and egg.) "Oh, but you have to recompile, so that you can optimize for your system and to account for different versions of your glibc package." I don't have to recompile anything to account for different versions of DirectX. Does that make DirectX superior, because it takes less user effort? For the average user, the answer is an emphatic YES! (Who cares if it's optimized, it runs with minimal effort, therefore it is better.)
Linux is not easy to use, nor is it simple or straight-forward for 75% of the population. If Linux ever wants to be more than a niche market for geeks and servers, it will have to come to grips with the fact that most users don't want More Than One Way To Do It, they just want it done. And nothing you do to "educate" them will change that. If they need to spend more than 5% of their computer time playing with the system, they will give up and never get to the applications. Can the Linux community adapt both themselves and the Linux world to be more real-person-friendly? Hope springs eternal...
--GrouchoMarx
--GrouchoMarx
Card-carrying member of the EFF, FSF, and ACLU. Are you?
How is switching to win2000 not reinvesting in all new software?
--
Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
When I just started using FreeBSD (back in 2.2.7), the ports collection saved me a lot of hassle. A directory change and then a "make install clean" meant I had whatever program I wanted installed and working ... honestly, I can't think of a more newbie friendly system. ... that's not fun.
Telling them to type "cd /usr/ports/www/w3m" and then "make install clean", however is simplicity itself. Ports handles any dependencies automagically, stopping the build of whatever you're installing, going out and building and dependencies, and then resuming the original install. /usr/ports/netscape-navigator-4.76 && make install clean" does the same thing. Alternatively, you could use the handy Package installer that's built into sysinstall that would do the same thing with binary packages.
Telling a newbie that they need to go out and download the source to program "x", get the source for any neccesary dependencies, build and install those dependencies, then build and install their original app
For people coming over from the Windows world, this is even easier than installing programs there. Want to install Netscape on Win98? You need to go to download.com or somesuch, find the binary you want, download it. Then you navigate to the directory that you downloaded it to, run the setup program, click through the installer, and you're done. In FreeBSD, a quick "cd
I've shown ports to Windows users who've never touched a UNIX in their life, and even they were quite impressed. This of course applies equally to NetBSD and OpenBSD.
Sure you sometimes need a little more control over the install of certain applications, at which time you can build it manually, but for system staples, ports certainly makes life easier.
I agree totally with this. A lot of people I know have tried Linux and ditched it simply because they couldn't figure out how to do simple tasks (PPP, printing, etc). Most of them said that if there were some kind of help function available (either directly through X (like the Help thing in Win9x) or through one central website, they probably would've stuck with it. But until then they're back to being under the control of Microcrap. I personally taught myself Linux, essentially, (with some HOWTO help, of course), but that kind of dedication is generally only present in programmers or other hacker-types... which, obviously, your average Joe who thinks that telnet is a program to use the voice functions on his modem is not (a hacker, that is.) {And, yes, I *have* actually had someone tell me that Telnet stood for "telephone something-or-other"... heheh)
Know it.
Love it.
thelocust[dot]org
I must say this is an obvious question that I didn't think to ask. I just blindly accepted that if I wanted to wade into the waters of Linux then I could expect limited help and a lot of self propulsion. I come from a windows background from which intuition plays a large role, ie after a while you intuitively know what to do and where to go. Linux on the other hand relies on a lot of memorised knowledge. I suffer from a lack of time in my life (and my application to God for more hours in my day was politely rejected) so I have trouble retaining all the bits I need to remember one month to the next, especially if I have a long break between 'plays'. A good set of tutorials and cheat sheets would go a long way to helping this situation.
....Be careful of dueling with dragons - you are crunchy and taste good with tomato sauce....
that explains it! I work in the IT industry and have to work my ass off every day and then read tons of material just to stay even with the changes in my industry. Wish I had the sparetime you did. the amount of change in the social industry does not even begin to rival the IT industry.
[snip] I am just a social worker. I just finished a master's degree, and in my free time I was able to get RH 6.2 running pretty much perfect. [snip]
I'm good with numbers -
I couldn't agree more.. wait, yes, i can... :-)
It's now my 15th month with Linux. I remember when using windoze I wanted to do something and struggled to get it done. Now I wonder what I could do with all this power.
I quit wondering which is better, GUI or command line. It's the combination that rules. RXVT under X (plain Enlightenment). Heck, I even linked the start button on my windoze keyboard to run rxvt, because that's where all the commands can be executed.. No worrying which kind of UI to use when I have them both equally well.
The important outcome is that, after years with M$ crap, Linux forced me to get interested in hacking, something immensely valuable in itself, indispensable in my studies and work, and pretty damn FUN!!! And the sad counterpoint is that every new release of losedoze looks more and more like a game console.
--
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
That is a valid point but I think what the author was asking for was some help finding out what files/applets control the services on their linux box. A simple table would be a nice start. I haven't seen anything like that out there yet.
4) O'Rielly publishes tones of books, they're a hell of an investment since you will use them regularly, I have been using Linux as my main OS and at work (programming fibre optics simulations) for 4 years and I still refer to them.
I don't think anyone would argue the value of any books but this publisher. However, this is a fairly expensive venture for someone who won't be using them at work.
I don't think the Linux community should reject anyone who doesn't appreciate the advantage of a command line. There are numerous advantages the OS. People come to Linux for different reasons. And if you acknowledge it's something you have to play around with we should help out these users by providing them with this transitional information until they do "get it".
how will super geeks differentiate themselves from the rest of us?
Easy. They'll be the ones with FreeBSD.
~~~LXT~~~
Life is like a computer program: anything that can't happen, will.
I tossed that in because I mention vim. I guess it was kinda inappropriate (lesson: never let your mood affect your post.) I'm actually learning emacs a little in case I'm forced to use it, but I don't see the point of using an editor that doesn't do syntax highlighting. Once I got textmode in 132x50, I used X mostly for games. So I'm not involved in any GNOME/KDE wars. :P
~~~LXT~~~
Life is like a computer program: anything that can't happen, will.
I liked Enlightenment, but there's one HUGE problem with using it with Gnome: it doesn't pass a right-click on the root window through, so I couldn't make new URLs (to /. and redhat errata), symlinks, etc. So, back to Sawfish the Inferior until I figure out how to start KDE (which will be tougher than doing "startx").
~~~LXT~~~
Life is like a computer program: anything that can't happen, will.
If you floppy drive wasn't plugged in right, windows wouldn't boot
Hmmm....so how do you propose to get Windows users over to Linux? Tell them to buy a distro, and RTFM?
That's a technically correct solution. But as advocacy it falls a little short of the mark. And it exemplifies the attitude that is holding Linux back from mainstream acceptance on the desktop.
Like it or not, getting Windows users to "see the light" is not a technical problem. It's a people problem.
Of course, I'm not being very helpful here, the whole point was to recommend some docs between "here's how you hit the keyboard" and "advanced linux system adminstration" but I can't think of any right now.
To email, do the obvious.
Of course, once you work your way through this stuff, and you aren't satisfied, then the Open Source answer would be to write one yourself ;-)
How do I make my winmodem work on Linux? There definately needs to be a hardware 'do's and do nots' section.
I sorta like
Greetings; As one of the previous threads mentioned, Jon Lasser's _Think Unix_ (Que: ISBM 0-7897-2376-X) should be one of your first purchases. Rather than just taking the approach of showing you how to use commands, it presents the concepts behind how to use Linux/Unix, including some later chapters dealing soley with X. And, to become more comofortable with the power and flexibility of one of Linux/Unix's many shells, you may want to look at running the Cygwin port of the GNU utitlites for Win32: http://www.cygwin.com
Look! See Tux waddle across the screen spewing wonderful help bubbles...
But seriously, is there a "standard" Linux contect help system in the works? Preferably based on XML or HTML? Or will newbies be expected to use man pages forever.
Is this sig nificant?
just as an FYI there wasn't any emacs propaganda/evangelism (that I know of) I'm a tool and use kedit.
I'm not involved in that holy war =P
*shrug*
E.
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
wasn't there just recently an article about bloat in the Linux distro's =) ??? (not that user guides would be bloat... but it would be part of the kitchen sink syndrome)
BTW if you put help on the distro and the user didn't know how to "|more" they'd have to read pretty fast!
*Shrug*
YMMV
E.
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
some of their ways benefit some people, other ways benefit other people.
Agreed. Not all writers are created equal. The benefit of this approach, though, is that I'm apt to understand at least some of the authors, rather than gamble on an all-or-nothing proposition.
MS documentation is almost always useless. One of the main reasons I recommend newbies shell out for a good commercial distribution is for the printed manuals. How is anyone going to read on screen documentation when they are stariing at the aforementioned "blank screen". Linux is a complex system, and to think you can use it without reading anything is stupid. Is this a bad thing? No, even on a Mac you need to get a good book if you want to learn how to use it to the fullest, with Linux you just need to spend some time reading manuals about what daemons are, what different utilities do etc.. earlier on. After that Linux becomes verry painless, and easy to use.
I installed Debian GNU/Linux on my 7300 with the help of a linux-savvy friend. It does require some technical knowledge to get going, and I probably wouldn't have succeeded without his help. That said, being fairly standard hardware, there aren't as many driver issues installing on a Mac as there are on a random PC, and I was quite impressed at the ease of the process, given the reputation of Linux.
It's definitely not for the faint-of-heart, though, and definitely not for those with no *nix experience. One of the big things that sets Linux apart from MacOS or Windows is the installation process. To install MacOS requires very little user input, and things just work. When Linux reaches that point, then it may become a viable consumer OS.
Personally, aside from my friends that have been using Linux longer than I have, the best source of answers to questions, for me, has been IRC. Specifically, #linpeople, #linuxhelp, #kernelnewbies, and other channels on the openprojects network. X-chat comes with Red Hat, so fire that baby up, add irc.openprojects.net (I think...) to the server list, and log in. You will always find helpful people who will walk you through things if you ask nicely.
-- Have you ever noticed that at trade shows, Microsoft is always the company that is handing out stress balls?
Even if you own the windows version Q3A cd, you can still install it in linux. All you need is to download the latest pointrelease, copy the two .pk3 files to quake3/baseq3/, and then run the pointrelease. Your CD Key works just as well... open an X term and run ./quake3.x86
If it fails to load then something isn't set up with your 3d card, but that's about it. :)
How sad that in a forum of people that think Windows is about as close to injecting poison into one's veins, act so lousy when a person outside of the hardcore computer science community offers an opinion. I guess I am confused, 'Don't use Windows, it sucks, if you use windows, you worship Satan', then, 'Windows 2000 rules, if you can install Linux, just use W2K" Make up your minds: All I can say is this: I like RH Linux, I use it, I can do more with it, and it is a thousand times more stable. If you like Windows, enjoy, but the main story was about tutorials; my point was that a non C.S. person could do it, anybody could with the existing documents! Not that Windows, if that is your choice, is the devil...
I had a devil of a time changing over from Windows 98 to Linux. All evangelism aside, the number of times that I have had to hit the power button and restart Linux because it was completely frozen, I can count on one hand. I couldn't hardly work on Office 2000, because it would constantly crash, or garble files.
In addition, because I bought a cheap computer, I should accept that Windows just sucks? I think not. The $3.95 that I sent to Cheapbytes to get the RedHat 6.2 was the best money I spent. It has taken quite a bit of time, but by reading magazines, HOWTOS, and just DOING IT, I have everything while using Linux that I had whilst using Windows. I have increased functionality, I have much more stability, and I don't make Bill Gates, a capitalist that would be more happy in the 1930s, a little richer. The neatest thing, is that I am a social worker using Linux! Sorry if I sound like a troll, but I think it is important to know, I am no computer science specialist, I am just a social worker.
I just finished a master's degree, and in my free time I was able to get RH 6.2 running pretty much perfect. The only time I have had troubles is when I screw something up. But there is nothing wrong, cause with proper backups and experimentation, there is nothing you cannot figure out.
Don't wait for perfect manuals written by someone from the university technical writing degree....just do it, and spread the word that you CAN do it!!!
I always thought that someone should write a book that goes something to the effect of "Linux for the recovering windows user"
When I first installed my liux system I was really excited beacuse I knew about all this cool stuff it could do. Much to my dismay, I found that all my NT training meant basicly squat once the installer was done. Here I was, Mr cool-guy-computer-nerd and I couldn't figure out how on earth to unzip a file much less untar one.
HOW-TOs helped, books helped, messageboards helped, but nothing was more helpful than being able to ask some stupid questions. Jumping into a new operating system can be rough. There are so many little things you have to pick up here and there. Sure, there was a point when i knew how to recompile my kernel but not how to change the time on the clock. There wasn't exactly a Clock-HOW-TO out there to consult.
I guess this could be an open source project of its own. What are the details you needed to know when you installed your first linux box?
Silly slashdot, sigs are for kids!
I agree. All that's in the conventional help files are so obvious that it is of no help at all. If you've got any real trouble, I have seldom found any good help there.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
Or of course "ask your system admin for info"
That's trivial: go to "KDE user manual", and take a look at the contents. It's right there, section 4.1, title: "starting KDE". Took me about 3.75 seconds.
In case you still don't find it, here's a quote:
"When you boot a UNIX system, one of two things should happen (that is, if the system works correctly; everything else is an undocumented third case). Either you stay in text mode and get a login prompt or you are presented with a graphical login window. In the former case, you must log into your system and type:
startx
If the installation was successful, the KDE desktop should appear after a few seconds of initialization.
If a graphical login window is presented, then all that should be required is your login name and password. Assuming the KDE installation was successful, KDE should start without further intervention.
If you have not done so already, we recommend changing your X display manager from xdm to kdm, which includes the same functionality, but with the advanced features of the K Desktop Environment. "
I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
"Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk ?"
stuff
We need a tutorial for the smart user but not for the old school Unix users. I am currently keeping a journal of my own personal trek so that other Windows users can switch over. I am using KDE and have only been working on it for 4 days (more like 12 hours or 24 hours) but It is working. if anyone wants to see this work posted tell me. Kinglink@collegeclub.com
I earlier posted a response that I am a Windows person who is going through the conversion to linux (and when I say conversion I am going to try to learn as much as I can) I also asked if anyone wanted me to post something of this please e-mail me at Kinglink@collegeclub.com Also does anyone know a free site where I can post this? Just wanted to make my topic more specific. Thank you.
That is not the point. knowledge of one computer system usually allows a speedier delevery to another system. he says he has tried the Docs and they are too complicated or too easy. If there was a good doc from Windows to Linux we could have a few more converts now instead of next year (when windows crashes 10% more but no one really notices) personally I know enough people who would go to Linux if they had a good tutorial.. That is why Windows will remain the best because it is a standardize version and it is well made (in theory) and easy to use for your average idiot. (please don't flame ME... I hate it too but it is a lot easier (which sucks because it holds your hand for everything) ). Also buying a book costs money I rather get something for free.
I gotta say, though, that while that has helped me, and rereading man pages every five minutes for 24 hours helps some, another big source is IRC. They're not very helpful, in general, to newbies (like I can still be considered) but almost always they will point you to somewhere which will get you started. That foot in the door is all you need.
Another thing that helps: Install dos 6.2 somewhere. Get used to it, forget the gui. After getting reoriented with a command prompt, linux isn't as big of a jump (still a leap across the grand canyon though..)
We don't need no Net Explorer We don't need no Thought control
Now I can happily sport Linux, but after many days and nights of suffering at the hands of instructions written for and by programers. personally, i want to study something other than computer science, but i get a kick out of computers and need something like linux to flex my head. So someone save our almost feeble minds!
subvert the elitist slashdot patriarchy! (where all the stupid women at up in here?)
IMHO, Linux still needs a lot of work before it should be installed or tried by average windows users. When people install it then suddenly realize what they have dived into, they say "Oh no!" and quickly run back to windows, leaving a bad impression on the user. And giving fuel for Microsoft. It doesn't stand much of a chance until everybody decides upon a central means of distributing applications before it will really become useful. Several weeks ago I installed Mandrake - it was very quick, easy, and painless. Quite easier then windows, too. However, once the system was booted up I sit here wondering, "Ok, whats next?". I *know* it installed a lot of software after looking around at RPM (which is the closest to a central packaging system) but the software was not made avable to the user, so he will probably never know he has it.
Linux has a lot of great installers, a lot of great applications (KDE 2 is very nice compared to Windows), and a lot of *free* support behind it. It however doesn't have a central menu system, a central packaging system, and simple standards that everybody can adopt. I know I'm not alone here, this has been said by a lot of other people on slashdot.
Mandrake looks like it has some kind of central menus shared through diff window managers, however they aren't very easy to edit. Even somthing as simple as this that all RPMs would add to when they were installed would be very nice to just let the person know what he has.
Disclaimer: I can't spell and I could care less about MS/Linux/BSD bashers.
heh... one of the worst thing you can say to a newbie. But in this case there is a fairly comprehensive HOWTO called DOS-Win-to-Linux-HOWTO. It doesn't tell you everything but it's a pretty good start. Beats buying a book :)
Linux IS supposed to be free right?
-FrozdSolid
When all freedom is outlawed only the outlaws have freedom
Too many cooks spoil the broth!
There are just too many differences in little things.. some may call these differences features.. others may call it bloat but is this much choice really that much of a good thing?
We need more standardisation.. and imho 1 single l33t distro.. but.. im usually wrong.. so bring on the flames..
The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
Are there any tutorials, websites or books on putting Linux on a Macintosh?
I'd really like to try it, but I don't know if it's beyond my skills
Yep, I've gone thru the man pages, tutorials, admin documents, howto's countless times and they are indespensible and are alot better than they were a couple years ago. I think the best place to find info is in newsgroups or dejanews. IRC has helped me a couple times too.
Really? I just tried 'man kde Tutorial" and "man gnome Tutorial" and "man Linux tutorial for windows users" and it says they don't exist. Maybe I'm using the wrong case. What distribution are you using?
Despite my previous Corel-bashing, Corel Linux (download version) had plenty of documentation on how to set up a printer, how to work with X, and a lot more. It also had a centralized Control Center, where I could just open it up and change the X resolution and bitdepth
When I opened the GNOME control center, on the other hand, I was left with "Where do I add new hardware? Where do I change the X resolution? Where do I configure my video card?"
Whenever seeking Linux help in general..
- Linuxnewbie.org was very poorly organized, and incomplete
- Linuxnewbie.com was good, and taught me a few new commands (like dmesg) but was also incomplete
- Asking for help on #Linux on most any IRC network would earn me a link to linuxdoc.org (phrased in a catchy jingle)
- Linuxdoc.org was generally horribly out of date. When looking in the Network HOWTO, for instance, I was told to upgrade my kernel from 2.0.x
I'm not advocating rejecting anyone. On the contrary, if you read down a bit you'll see that I offered some suggestions for getting up on the learning curve.
My point was that the questioner seems to be saying something I've heard a lot of new Linux users say. "OK, I've installed Linux and now I'm looking at what seems to be a clunky knockoff of Windows. Everyone says Linux is so great. What am I missing?" The reality is that Linux is not a better Windows than Windows, the way MacOS arguably is. (Or Windows is a worse MacOS than MacOS. Whatever.) By all means, learn to use what the different desktops have to offer but don't expect to have your socks blown off by anything you encounter at that stage.
I was recently at my cousin's house for Christmas and he was having trouble with a CD burner on his iMac. Well I've never used a Mac, but I figured everything out okay and I got him all set up. The interesting part was how I was able to figure it out so easily, while none of it was intuitive for him. Afterwards, I began thinking about the Linux desktop situation and.. well.. how can we expect the average user to get to use a unix-like OS when even an iMac can be difficult?
What are the strengths of Unix? We know them already, and they're why some of us use it. I'm fairly sure that a lot of effort could be spent making, say Linux, simpler for newbie tasks, but why? It's good that Linux is customizable like that, but if we cover everything up what is the point of using Linux in the first place? Sure, GUI's like KDE help people in the transition, but heck I use KDE also and I consider myself pretty handy with an xterm. KDE doesn't forget that you're running unix, and some applications can be complicated because of this. Previous posts have complained that Kpackage is confusing for a newbie. When you see a checkbox in the system notification control panel labeled: "Log to stderr", you *know* you're in unixland. =) I'm sure a GUI could be created with the ultimate of simplicity in mind, but like I said earlier, why? It would defeat the purpose of using unix.
People have said that Linux will never survive if the general public doesn't accept it. I have a very good feeling that Linux won't disappear. It's not like anyone is getting paid now, so why would it be any different later? If Linux never becomes fully mainstream then it will always lack certain apps or games (actually games are the only problem. apps can be cloned, games cannot), but is this a problem? Do you see the BSD users complaining about lack of games? Maybe it's a question of "using the right tool for the job."
Anyway, if someone came to me asking for help on Linux, I would drag them through the mud. They would get their hands dirty. Maybe they would decide it's not for them. That's fine, I'm not using Linux to impress anybody or to help it take over the world. I use it because it works for me.
-Justin
id definately help. i recently installed linux onto my windows box (dual boot with win 2k) and was not only amazed but also overwhelmed. i love using linux and can already do most basic tasks but i still feel that there is a gap in the linux documentation. i have many problems and i would love to see/help a website/manual.
Exactly. This guy should get his karma raised by a hundred. He's got the right idea.
Mainly, those were things which an experienced windows-user would know and understand. For the most part I have figured out the answers, but it took longer then it should have IMO, and itwould have been nice to have a faq of somekind. Yes, when you install redhat 6.2 you get links to linuxnewbie.org and the gnome faq or whatever exactly it gives you, those are nice. They aren't what I need though. I just want a simple text file that says "instead of the contoll panel add/remove programs applet, redhat uses the rpm manager, to open it click on so on and so forth" "instead of dos edit, vi is the basic command line editor" "instead of autoexec.bat and config.sys, we have rc.local and whatever the heck" (I still haven't figure this out entirely).
Thats mainly what I missed when I started useing linux. For people less familiar with windows, it probably wouldn't be helpfull at all.
I love going down to the elementary school, watching all the kids jump and shout, but they dont know I'm using blanks.
The RPM manager I eventually figured out. init still totally confuses me, but at least I managed to get it to switch my harddisk to ATA/66 during bootup, and if I wanted to put something else in it I think I could figure it out again eventually. Device drivers- yep they are a total pain if they aren't built into the distrobution. I haven't ever successfully added one. Dialup networking- I don't need this now because I share my DSL on a LAN, but it would have been nice to have a year ago.
/?'" Just basic stuff like that. Mostly I have learned these things, and looking back it seems like it could have been a lot easier.
I guess really what I want is a faq for experienced windows users. Just some basic lists saying "instead of edit.com use vi" "for help on a command type 'man [command]' instead of 'command
I love going down to the elementary school, watching all the kids jump and shout, but they dont know I'm using blanks.
... are really annoying. I've been using Linux for my only OS for almost a year now, and I still haven't touched the Gnome or Ice menus to configure them, instead operating out of an X-Term (not that this is a problem, but X-Terms aren't as "pretty", and some users don't like them). This may sounds heretic, but I actually did like Windows 95/NT 4.0's UI. These OSes weren't great for their stability, but they were easy to use. Everything on the day to day levelm like icons, fonts, programs on the start menu and desktop, etc were very easy to adjust. The time that it became annoying was when one wanted to do something drastic. Most of the X window managers seem to be the other way around, in they are really easy to drastically change, but difficult to perform minor tweaking on. When I was using KDE I gave up on making a desktop link to my root filesystem, it was just proving annoying. Maybe if I'd RTFM it would have been clear, but sometimes it makes sense for something to be idiot designed, for I don't want to spend four hours tweaking the really piddly crap of my UI to get it right. Right now I (and I'd guess many other users who don't feel like digging) are sitting with default Gnome and KDE installs with the standard menu items and don't feel like playing with them.
I use CDE on some HP terms at school, and they're relatively easy to configure. Maybe someone in the design team could model changes after that. It sure would make Linux more attractive to your standard M$ following dialogue junkie...
"Titanic was 3hr and 17min long. They could have lost 3hr and 17min from that."
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
Everyone seems to respond to this issue as if people wanted to turn their beloved linux in to WinME or something. I keep seeing responses like "I disagree - I have never found windows help to be terribly well organized or helpful. " . Well, fine, but those who are coming from Windows know how to use Win help. They don't know how to navigate man pages nearly as well. The goal here is to get WINDOWS users comfortable on linux as quickly and easily as possible, not you. The Distro's need something like that included so WINDOWS users can get X and internet setup going without loads of pain. If that could be made easier, it would shorten the learning curve for transition from one to the other, and Win users would be more likely to experiment with other OS'es.
I should also say that I don't think that an optional windows help format should be used in place of the current linux docs, but alongside. Also the point isn't that Win docs are better, just that they are more familiar.
HOWTOs are generally written because someone out there got tired of hearing "How do I do this?" from new users. While some sort if intoduction to GNOME/KDE/KDE2/etc should brobally be included, don't expect to see introductions to things like WINE for some time as it is still pre-release software. I still haven't figured out why WINE keeps kicking me out of my xsession so don't fell too bad. :)
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
I agree. I recently installed linux on a bos still containing Windows and then spent a month just getting it to work with my video and network cards. If I had erased my disk I would have had basically a $2000 paperweight during that month. There was absolutely no built in help whatsoever, and while I had access to the net when I booted to windows, the online help and howtos were as bad or worse. Although it now displays KDE properly and connects to the internet, I still run windows most of the time because it is so annoying to install anything under linux. I guess a computer that can install things in less than a week is worth a couple of "blue screens of death" a day.
Some of the best help can be found in newsgroups
get a Linux book, read the first chapter on how to read man pages and how to find documentation in your system. Forget Windows ever tainted you mind,try to put it out of your head, and don't look back.
Also, delete your Windows partition and 'tough it out'. going back only serves to corrupt you mind.
it worked for me."The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
Oh, I can relate to you. When I took the plunge into the Linux world, a little more than a year ago, I was in that exact position. All of the current sites for newbies are usually written by people who are definitely not newbies themselves, and doubtfully even remember when they were.
Another thing I've noticed, is the approach of some advanced Linux users towards people who don't know and don't want to know so much about their computers. Unlike the arrogant and condesending attitude they had towards newbie geeks (like me or you), their approach towards these people was quite agressive: they were "idiots", they were the "lamers" (I know it's more from the l33t culture, but it's really the same -- and it's as childish), they were the anti-geeks.
Their advice to these people was usually "if you don't want to learn all of this about your computer/os/whatever then you don't deserve to use it, so you better go back to your shitty micro$oft winblows -- you deserve what you get". Which is, as I can guess, exactly what they did, thus depriving the Linux user base of another (though, in these people's eyes, needless) user.
Well, I won't go into why this approach is harmful and fundementally wrong - many other people did it already (just read the other comments on this post). Then why did I mention it at all? Well, it's because you mentioned some of these sites being oriented towards "idiots", and that reminded me of that elitistic approach. Well, some of these tutorials are written for people who are less familiar with computers/linux/whatever (so i like that expression. sue me.), but "idiots"?
Unless, of course, you meant that the tutorials were written with a very condescending tone ("...this thing is called a command line, it's called that way because you type commands into it and they are written in a line. to type commands you press the keyboard buttons. each keyboard button is labeled with the letter that pressing it produces...." ok, that's a little too much, but you catch my drift), that made you feel that the authors actually felt that whoever will read it is an idiot, and, in that case, I'm sorry.
I basically installed and then screwed around installing whatever I could, not caring if things were broken in the process. I spent about a week just breaking things and being clumsy knowing that after that week I'd re-install and start from scratch again. I did this probably 4 times until I felt comfortable enough to dig in and not worry about my lack of knowledge. Once you get past the first month or so it's not so bad.
Then I went through every distro I could get my hands on while simultaniously hoarding oreilly books, I setteled on Debian and havent looked back ever since of course I still keep windows around but generally only for games and some neato macromedia software.
Many of the posts here in /. are posted by people who are active, and I mean really active, in the Linux community. Programmers, System Administrators, Tech Support, etc... With few exceptions most feel that Linux is the superior operating system and that Windows should be banned under international amnesty laws for cruelty to users. Taunting them with stability yet crashing quite often (BSOD and the like), giving them bells and whistles that blow up in their faces (Outlook, Word macros, and other virus catchers), and the promise of working with everything, provided it is accepted (i.e. created) by Microsoft.
/. are at the right side of the bell curve, some are at the extreme right. If you don't know what a bell curve is, you probably aren't reading this post. As most people here are at the right side of the curve, this would imply that most people NOT here and are at the other end. With the right side of the bell curve showing people who exhibit above average intelligence, the left side should probably show the 'average' user.
I use Windows mostly to play games at home and to compose letters at work. If I want to get on the Internet I will take a Linux box, preferably slackware, any day of the week. The stability of the system is wonderful, the security tools are quite good (If you haven't yet, try SAINT), and the look is nicely customizable.
Well, it would appear that the stability and reliability of Linux isn't really in question. We are already used to using the command line and the GUI that we chose (KDE, GNOME, being macho and just running X with a minimal front end). As we feel that since we are running the system just fine, shouldn't other people? We got it to work, shouldn't they?
There is a wonderful thing called a bell curve. It is used to show a statistical sampling of properties across time, space, population, etc... Let us look at the bell curve for intelligence. Many of the posters here in
If we as a community ever expect the 'average' user to adopt Linux, Linux must be able to survive in their world. In other words, if we don't make Linux friendly to those on the left side of the bell curve, the only people we can truly blame for the non-acceptance of Linux is us. The makers.
If we decide that we don't want Linux to become more common on the desktop, then we should cease and desist all complaining regarding the inability of the 'average' user community (you know, the ones who are, by definition, not as smart as you) to use Linux.
Personally, I would love to have Linux on the desktop where I work. I could reduce my workload quite substantially in support calls and concentrate on system stability and the like. The only two things stopping me are:
1). User acceptance. The managers in the departments would object to using it because it is unfamiliar to them. If I were able to show them that it is as easy for them to use as Windows, or even ALMOST, I could get my foot in the door with a few stations.
2). Program incompatibility. We have a few programs that just won't run under Linux. Yes, I could run VM Ware or a similar product, but that would still be running Windows. Suffice to say, many vendors just don't currently write software that supports Linux users. None write what we need.
I love the fact that I can install Linux on even the weakest of systems and have it perform adequately. The cost of the system is nil and runs on hardware that would be thrown out due to its obsolescence. Justifying the user training required for them to be infused with a clue, even a loaner clue, is another story altogether.
While point number two stated above is a large problem that I am faced with, how many companies would ignore an operating system that addressed my number one point, user acceptance.
It would appear that our options are thus:
1). Cave into the 'average' user and make a module for your GUI (GNOME, KDE, etc) that would empower the user with helpful (real helpful not guru level, that is a separate module called man pages) information and dispel their fears about the system.
2). Ignore the user and accept that the 'average' user just won't be able to get it.
The choice is yours.
--
More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly.
- Woody Allen
"Giving money and power to governments is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P.J. O'Rourke
Add/Remove Programs = GnoRPM/kPackage Autoexec.bat = /etc/rc.d/rc.local
StartUp = For KDE ~/.kde/Autostart/ - For GNOME click Control Center, then select Session and Startup Programs
Dialup Networking = (Depends on which distro your using. Too many methods to list here.) For *OLD* Red Hat run `modemtool` and then `netcfg`
Device Manager = run `lspci` and/or `usbview` (other tools may also apply)
__________________________________
Free your mind - Flush your toilet
The `Registry` is a Microsoft-only concept.. linux doesn't use one. for your usual config setings, start by searching through the /etc directory.
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Free your mind - Flush your toilet
When I started with my very first distro of Red Hat 4.1, I found it very difficult to just fall into, and run with.. but I got lucky, and found a crowd through IRC (which I was already familiar with in Windows) and they `sorta` took me in under thier wing, so to speak. All the HowTo's, and README's in the whole world, can't take the place of human guidance. With their encouragment, and help, I stugled forward. And here I am today, 4 and a half years later, now mentoring a few other `newbies` I've met over IRC. More often then not, I'd find the answers I needed, not by asking, as much as just simply watching the Q's n A's of others. I guess where I'm going with this is, that there isn't JUST *html* help out there. A good place I've found (recenlty) is #linuxhelp @ undernet. They regulars there don't specialize in Red Hat or Slackware, GNOME or KDE, but in a little bit of everything. This may not be the best sollution for everyone, but it's definatly one to put in your lil `bag-o-tricks`.
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Free your mind - Flush your toilet
I currently work in a Windows NT env, and we set up a RedHat 6.2 box in the corner; we (semi-smart guys with mostly windows exp) run over to it every once in a while, but usually are too frustrated to do anything worthwhile. We always bitch that all of the instructions are from a newbie or Unix-god perspective, not from anything in-between. A guide or tutorial with phrases like "doing x in linux is like doing y in Windows", etc.
hawaiianshirt
hmm here's a weird idea.. why not convert those man pages and how-to--do-something files from text to html... and let people search them with meta tags
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
ME (read: not Windows)
A sucessful programmer-user relationship needs people who are an interface between the two. A person that understands both ends of the spectrum and respects both.
Did I just say respect developers? Oh my!
First distribution (Caldera 2.3); one machine, one light weight manual, one cable modem connection.
Everything was there to successfully get the machine up and running, connected to the Internet. Dial-up may have been a different story. Depending on your hardware situation, YMMV. Good arguement for a hardware compatibility check as mentioned here.
Once connected to the web it was *mostly* downhill from there. If one linux site did not offer the solution I needed, another one did. In fact, sometimes it took more than one site and a little learning to get it done.
Time consuming? Yes. Educational? Definitely.
Window Maker is THE shit!!
I am not sure what all the Gnome/KDE hype is, they just don't touch the elegance of Window Maker.
I could have written that comment myself. I'd *like* to switch over to Linux, really I would. I've tried playing around with it, but am having a very hard time figuring things out, since all the documentation I've ever seen is either (a) for total idiots ("click here to do this") or (b) for people already comfortable with Unix. I'm a DOS / Windows expert, and am quite comfortable with a command line, but Linux leaves me totally befuddled, since there's nothing out there written with folks like me in mind. And the only standardization is at the most basic, command-line level. If I had a week with nothing else to do, I'd have fun learning it from the ground up; but I've got to get work done with my computer and have other things to do. Very frustrating.
TANSTAAFL
Not one link to the "Windows to (insert favorite desktop) Tutorial" ? I'm disappointed. Then again, maybe I'm not.
I've been toying with the idea of "whipping up" just this kinda website for a while. My roommate is a recent convert (not his choice...my computers) and while he's bright and picks things up with reasonable swiftness I wind answering a hundred questions a day like "How do I play this MP3?" and "What the hell is emacs?"We never had these exchanges before and frankly sometimes I just wanna kick his a$$ for not trying to figure it out by himself like I did. Some kind of searchable web based help tool, designed for the Windows oriented user, would be a perfect remedy.
To this end I'm willing to donate equipment/code/time but a few things are in the way. For one, I did things in Windows my own way and I don't think I could come up with conversions for all of the other ways to do things simply because I don't know all of the other ways to do things. Some outside input would probably be the solution here. Also new versions of desktops for Linux seem to pop up every couple of months. Sometimes the changes are not significant to a user and sometimes they are. It seems to me that it might be difficult to keep up.
On a personal level, I'm no Linux ninja and I'm busy trying to solve my own system and network problems. If I can convince my ISP to let me run a web sevice from my network (without forcing me intoa business account) and figure out why the DSL just randomly drops the connection (when I pay extra to be "always on") I'd be happy to host this thing.
If any one is interested helping out making some suggestions feel free to e-mail me!
We really need your help
http://www.gofundme.com/help-sherry
OK, I don't agree with SparkyMartin's sarcastic remark, but there is something to it. Man pages are not easy to read. Just saying "Man Pages" is like saying RTFM! Thats very uncool. They are geared at someone who needs to read between the lines. Mainly because they are written from the programmers perspective. We programmers are always doing those kinda pesky things. :) ("Waddya mean you dont know what a malloc error is?")
Its very difficult to realize that just becuase we(as a geek collective) understand something as second nature that does NOT make it common sense. For example, nothing about a mouse is common sense. Common knowledge maybe. But whenevr you add the knowledge word to anything it insinuates that you have to learn somewhere. For a stupid-simple example, how many people (geek or otherwise) truly know just how handy the right mouse button is in Win32. Heck! It does everything. Does the same in X too! But when you mention it to many people they look at you with that glazed over look in their eyes.
Remember that most people had to learn somewhere or from someone. Even people like myself who are self taught in everything, from programming to OS's need to learn from something.
Isn't that the reason for the concept accepted by *most* of the hacker & linux community. Paying ahead.
Cry Gnap, and unleash the Smurfs of war!
Geezus, take the time to just LEARN it. I'm not a linux god by far, but I feel quite comfortable working in it. I have no fear about screwing up and reloading. Learn where to look online. Buy books. Read README's. Ask questions. Learn for yourself. Dont expect everything to be handed to you on a silver platter. Its like everyone has been spoiled by Windows. I dont know if its good or not, but I just bought my roommate, an NT admin, "Linux for the Windows Addict" for xmus. Give that a shot.
Do you really want Linux to become the next Desktop? I think it would / could receive more critism than it may now. Some people out there just DO NOT get it. I've heard and seen times when a computer user just can't operate their PC. That is why Mac lovers love the Mac, it's simple and easy to use. Does that make it a power house like Linux? I'm a programmer, yes I have been tripped here and there in every OS/platform, who hasn't? I always thought Linux had the upper hand being the "stable" server package.
It hasn't been too long for me to remember what it was like. My First first installation of Linux was Red Hat 5.2 and after getting it installed and going through the painful process of setting up X manually, I gave up on it because all I could get was a gray screen with a little "x" on it. In retrospect, I know what the problem was and it was something simple. But at the time it was too frustrating and I ended up putting Win95 back on that box for a while. (My next attempt was much more sucessful. Thank you SuSE!) But the point is, there is little in the way of DESKTOP support for linux. Especially for those of us who choose to download linux, and therefore give up any support that a vendor might provide.
I've also learned a lot from Welsh & Kaufman, Running Linux (O'Reilly) and Red Hat 6 Unleashed. Plus other stuff.
But I'm motivated.
For some strange reason I feel compelled to spend my idol hours arm-wrestling RH 7.0, downloading and (trying to) install tar.gz files that don't always do what they're proclaimed to do. So what can motivate the Windows-serf to migrate?
I'll just add that the only OS my wife has used has been Linux; she hadn't used a computer until I got a linux box at home. And she has a better experience than she would have with windows, you betcha. Gnome & KDE ain't that hard, folks. It's getting the system going that's hard.
This post was MOST interesting, the point of view very provocative. It reveals a dichotomy (I'm an engineer and can't spell, dammit) that could be lucrative and meaningful. And FUN, heaven forbid! I'm a mentally disabled mech engineer, and I first loaded Suse 6.2 last year at this time, with the help of my brother, the "God of Unix"... I didn't like the way it was working, so I took it off and started all over again, with the Unix God safely home in Switzerland, and got it going far better on my own - thank you very much... All of this keeping a running Win Box in another partition (that's so easy, why doesn't anyone just do that?) There, are, however some things that I had trouble "grokking"...Now, if a brain damaged gear head can "get this" what is the problem? The problem is, resistance to learning - and thank god for it. The problem is also, some BRAINS do not have the right HARDWARE to grok what an operating system (ANY OS) really does and how... THANK GOD! Linux SHOULD be what it is, and it should be kept the way it is. I think the right attitude is that those who CAN make it go, should CHARGE a REASONABLE FEE to come perform the magical stunt. The beauty of Linux/Unix is there's some things the Micro-Sausage crap simply doesn't do as well, and too many too powerful boxes that require Unix - and for us this is the gold mine. And a beautiful thing, because in the world of tecky-ness, paying niche's for independent, refuse to Poop when and where Big Brother tells us, are becoming ever more scarce and paying not enough. I think if Linux/Unix heads sold their time for about 1/3 of what the Micro-Sausage hacks do, we'd all be coming out ahead. And in the meantime, lets leave the learning curve where it is... We can be very helpful, if it's worth it :-)
My 2 Cents,
Slowride
(this is what happens when outlaw bikers find the terminal)
Smith and Wesson, the original "Point and Click"
does anyone else read this and think
WTF??
its a GUI desktop!
is GNOME/KDE really that hard to use?i started with redhat 5 when i was 12 and
my current 12 yr old brother can use gnome!
if you can't understand linux, use windows.
exactly. I agree with most of what is mentioned here, but the point is not to turn linux into windows, it is to CONVERT the windows users to linux as easily as possible. make the installers as easy as possible. help them get started. The rest is up to them. I think RedHat is in the right direction, as we speak, they have almost automatic installers. Make 'Wizards,' but don't force us to use them as windows often does.
"Ummmm..."
I tried installing RedHat 7 for the first time a few weeks ago and found a few things that would no doubt give newbies a hard time. The first thing was that when installing as a server x windows did not boot up by default. I was at a loss for a while staring at a command line. It didn't take long to figure things out online.
The next challenge was figuring out what all the packages do. It looked like there was over 1000 different packages to install. Their names didn't really tell me what they did. I don't think a newbie would know what KDE or Gnome are for let alone the rest of them. They need descriptions or something. At least with Windows they tell you what each option is for when you do a custom install. The names of the packages may as well be in Greek since they don't really seem to describe what they do.
How long have you been using Windows? Most people have been using DOS/ Windows for years and get into the rut of thinking that they are computer pros because they are Windows pros. Your Windows Expertise is based on years of training (conditioning), you have had years to get used to the Windows way. Linux is quite a bit different than Windows and many of you Computer Skills are really Windows skills.
You ARE a "Newbie", as green and raw as a recruit in basic. Don't make the mistake of thinking you can change you backwards slashes to forward slashes and dive in. Swallow you pride and read the newbie stuff, most likely you will learn a thing or two. Linux != Windows, and Windows experts are not automatically Linux Experts.
That said, here's a big tip: Don't just try to learn Linux. The sheer amount of Linux related stuff out there will overwhelm and confuse you. Find a goal, and try to do that one specific task. You will find that with focus and a specific goal you will learn much quicker. Research your goal and ask around the community about how to accomplish it. You will pick up the other stuff along the way.
Here's some resources you might consider, a while ago I used a book called Unix for Dos Users. I searched B&N. com and they had several titles that were similar. I don't know which one it was, but here are the results of that search. Also, from a systems administrators perspective, Essential Systems Administration is probably the best general Unix systems administration books around I've seen it on many administrators bookshelves and it never leaves mine. One other book I recommend is O'Reiliey's Unix in a Nutshell, it's a little more concise an Howto-ish than the Essential book above.
Also consider, GNU/ Linux is a HUGE phenomenon, despite the fact that the media claims Linux is a new thing; GNU has been building the tools that make up the core of the OS for over 20 years, and right now thousands of coders around the world are creating new stuff on a continual basis. After 5 years using Linux I still learn new (GNU?) tools and techniques on a regular basis. -- Dennis (Still learning)
can it change fount yet? Thats why I hate Notepad pre 98.
Look out!
but this still beggars the question of a truely *readable* how-to on doing installs/setup/config et al. Part of the point is how to get the *average* user (read also Win user) to be able to understand even half of what is being talked about in most install manuals.. I"ve read some of the red hat stuff (I was bored..;)) and it read like a VCR manual for the dead... if plain language can be used to point these users towards linux, then IMHO I say all for it.
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ah but this would mean said user has a fuly configured linux that knows how to connect to the 'net..personal experience with redhat 6.0.. no such luck.. it couldn't identify the modem I was using, hardware issues, and lots of other wonderful (painful hours and hours) worth of pulling out my hair, only to have to go back to windolt and try to read the htmland web pages on the problem..thankfully I was dual Os'ing and wanted to make sure I knew WTFrack I was doing..
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No worries. Every one starts some time. Not all of us were around or were involved when computers and real opertaing systems were born. It's very understandable when a new user walks through the door and doesn't know which place to look for information. Keep checking in with the /.'ers and with some luck and some dilligence, you'll get there.
More importantly, I think it's helpful to check the elitist mindest at the door when talking to new users. So much of the stuff goes right over people.
It, just like any thing, takes practice. Luckily, with *NIX in any form, it's pretty hard to destruct. So on a user-level you can screw up all over the place without getting the dreaded blue screen every time you make a mistake. Good Luck! and welcome to real computing.
.
Actually I - then a 13 (!) year old kid - bought SuSE 6.3 and it does > good HD partioning shceme, dual booting OS, and > getting X up and running, And got Linux working in 2 hours!!!!!!!
Moderation: +4. Modded 70% Funny and 30% Overrated. 100% Saturated.
My favorites site for Linux docs is The Linux Documentation Project at www.linuxdocs.net. Also, searching the Linux Usenet groups w/ DejaNews (www.deja.com) *used* to be a great why to find answers to propblems other people have asked and gotten replies to. The Deja News search engine has gotten cruddy lately, IMO, but it might be worth a shot.
... documentation owners... I wonder if someone should send that in for the Slash dot main page...
Slight change in subject:
A friend of mine described why he thought open source was such a great idea. It's not *just* the "source should be free" thing or even that you can read the source to learn what it really does or even that you can hack said source. The great thing about open source, he opinioned, was that it would prevent all the bazillion different flavors of U*x that sprang up a decade or two ago. Instead of lots of little incompatible systems, all competeing against each other for market space (and none really getting critical market share like Microsoft now has), Linux and GNU are assured of one single source base with all the really good ideas in it. Everyone can just go to the public source and get what you already know to be the latest and greates version.
This seems to work well for *source code*, but I haven't found anything like that for *documentation*. I've seen lots of different, good ideas for documentation here. It reminds me, in fact, of the fractured U*x world before open source.
So I'm wondering now if there needs to be official documentation owners, just like open source has official source module owners now. The idea is to have someone "own" the documentation to make sure it gets updated, has all the latest and greates info, and gets into the distributions in a format that is the most useful (for those out there complaining that windoze documentation has out-stripped the Linux counterparts.
Hmm,
I sighed a miserable sigh at Borders a few days ago when I spotted two books on the shelves:
Gnome for Linux for Dummies
and
KDE for Linux for Dummies
Whether or not they're any good is for someone else to determine, I find the whole idea very disconcerting.
the number of times I have had to hit the power button and restart Windows 2000 because it was completely frozen...
I don't even have to count, because it has not yet happened to me.
I'm glad you enjoy Linux, but there are other options out there to Windows 98, and not all of them mean reinvesting in all new software.
> Funny, but just after that transition phase I took an engineering management role in a dot com and help in the setup of a several hundred K in unix hardware
Most people who don't do IT for a living are not going to be as driven to this as you were. Take it now from the perspective of my aunt, who is a riding instructor. Heck, what benefit does she derive from switching in the first place? Lack of reboots? She only has the computer on for about a half hour a day anyway.
--
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
> Windows NT dulls the mind of an IT person
IT people don't need beginner tutorials. You may perhaps have noticed that people not in the IT field use computers too.
--
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
This is the only way that Linux will get accepted into the mainstream. Look at windows help, it's very easy and searchable, and they are a million intro to's, classes, cdroms etc..
Windows became a desktop standard WITHOUT all of that stuff pre-existing. That all came along after Windows became popular.
Of course, none of this will be able to happen without a set of standards.
What standard did Windows follow, again?
Computer standards (that work) aren't pushed down from above, they're pulled up from below.
The LSB will succeed because it will adopt successful things. Whatever interface standard is eventually dominant in Linux will be successful first, then made standard, not the other way around.
-
As I normally recommend one of the RPM-based distributions for newbies, I will base this on them:
/etc/rcX.d or /etc/rc.d/rcX.d (where X is your runlevel).
/etc/rc.local or /etc/rc.d/rc.local
/etc/httpd/conf/*. I don't know of any good GUI-tools. It can be started by symlinking (explore the command "ln", ex. "ln -s") the startupscript /etc/init.d/httpd to the relevant runlevel-directory.
1. The distros generally ship a GUI package-manager: Yast, Gnorpm, RPMdrake or Kpackage (or others). Most of these let you install packages from another server as well. Packages can be installed by command-line ("rpm -Uvh package.rpm"), or by using a filemanager. The rpm-packages is mostly associated with a package-manager, which lets you start one by double-clicking on a package.
2. The runlevel-folders and rc.local. The normal GUI-runlevel is 5 (for Red Hat and Mandrake at least). For a full and nice-looking init, put a symlink to a startup-script under
If you just want to start something, and don't have a fancy startup-script or doesn't know how to create one, just put it in
Look at the way the symlinks in the runleveldirs are named. S75httpd means that the webserver (apache) starts later than S10network (A K in front means kill, S means start).
3. Most distros ship a program for this, easily found under your system-menu. Either Red Hat dialup, Kppp, MandrakeConf.
4. Mandrake has a nice GUI-program called HardDrake. Don't know if Red Hat has this, but it should be possible to install for other distros.
Cannot answer for SuSE or Caldera, but under Red Hat, you're mostly on your own. Look at tools like scanpci, insmod, modprobe, the file "/etc/modules.conf" etc...
5. If installed it normally has configuration under
Here it goes...
On redhat or probably any other RPM based system (Mandrake, SuSE, etc) the package manager is 'rpm'. There is a GUI frontend called gnorpm that probably does what add/remove would do. On Debian based systems there's apt (apt-get, apt-cache) and gnome-apt for a frontend.
First of all, Linux boot up is a bit more complicated than DOS bootup. The first thing that is run by the linux kernel is "init". This is a compiled executable (there is not reason it cannot be but that's another subject) that then executes the 'rc' script. (/etc/init.d/rc on debian, redhat is probablyrc0.d
rc0.d/K90sysklogd
rc0.d/K30setserial
rc0.d/K25hwclock.sh
rc0.d/K20makedev
rc0.d/S30urandom
rc0.d/S20sendsigs
rc0.d/S31umountnfs.sh
rc0.d/S40umountfs
rc0.d/S90halt
rc0.d/K20logoutd
rc0.d/S35networking
rc0.d/S10portmap
rc0.d/K20inetd
rc0.d/K14ppp
rc0.d/K12kerneld
rc0.d/K89pcmcia
rc0.d/K01gdm
rc0.d/K20ssh
rc0.d/K10rplay
rc0.d/K20apache
rc0.d/K20postgresql
ie all services are to be killed because we're shutting down. (Blast <PRE> filtering!)
Dunno. Use your package manager and search for things like 'dial' and 'ppp' etc.
There is no "cute" device manager. You can look in /proc for a lot of info about the running system and what peripherals are attached. Installing drivers for devices is a bit more complex. Basically what they (usually) are are kernel modules. These are usually specific to a kernel version and kernel versions aren't standardised across distributions which means that you usually have to recompile a driver (assuming source is available) for your kernel if you're running anything but a really mainstream linux distribution. This used to be RedHat 6.2 but I don't know anymore. In short, installing drivers not provided by your distro is at least a pain in the ass and at most impossibly difficult.
It's the best in its price range. (And bests some outside of its price range) :d I'll point you to the docs because this is a very vague question: apache.org docs
--
while($s ne "just another perl hacker"){ $s.=["a".."z"," "]->[rand 25] }
This is not a problem for "Linux" as a whole. This is a problem for the individual distribution makers. Most distributions provide their own tools for doing administrative tasks, which means that unless a site goes through the "If you have this distro... then..." loop for every possible circumstance, it really will not do well to help the newbie (or even not-so-newbie) very much at all. It would be nice to see the distribution makers run something either like a knowledge base, or to custom tailor the more common howtos to their particular distribution. KDE and Gnome could follow suit by having a nice help system to show how they do things different from everyone else. I have found that even as an experienced linux user, some things are just extremely hard to install. Not all people who write applications for linux speak english... many create english documentation which is very hard to follow due to the inconsistencies in english grammar. I applaud these people for putting forth the effort to allow us more linguistically challenged to install their software, but it is still a far cry from the easy "double-click setup.exe and click next a bunch" of the Windows world.
I would love to see more people using Loki's setup installer. It is quite pretty and easy to follow, but it still requires not only a working X, but also GTK. Possibly a curses based setup utility is the answer...
wolf31o2 Developer, Gentoo Linux Games Team
Many people are familiar with the old DOS help facility and Windows' help for almost anything. Under Unix, man and info serve the same purposes. Once told that 'man' gives help, manual pages should contain enough information to get them started. There are good X-based manpage viewers as well, and most comands are already documented in their manual pages. Some overview manpages would help, though, e.g., man sysinit for information on how the system boots and what the startup scripts do.
The best thing about it is the nice balance between:
- "here's what you need to do" in a step by step, recipie type way,
- and "here's why you need to do what you need to do" which you can use to understand what you're doing
The former helps you get started with the basics you need to Get Things Done Quickly And Easily ("how do I set up the boot process, how do I arrange my home directory, how do I automate frequent, repetitive tasks...") while the latter segues into the things you'll need to know to start breaking the rules once you know what you're doing, and thus Get Even More Things Done By Having Complete Control Over Your Tools.The depth & breadth of information might be overwhelming if you don't recognize some of the material coming into the book , but you'll quickly appreciate the overview it gives you of the many things that Unix makes easy -- shell interaction with the machine, shell shortcuts & history, process management, input & output streams, pattern matching, file management, file security, resource usage, searching through files, editing files from the shell (sed, awk, etc) through editors (vi, emacs), and beyond (perl), etc. I've got two shelves full of O'Reilly books, alot of which cover the same things the Power Tools book does, but still it's the one I come back to over and over again. I bought it after having read most of the others, and I wish I'd come across it sooner, because it made everything Fall Into Place & Make Sense for me.
And though I don't think I could possibly rate it any more highly (unless it went into X-Windows &/or network stuff a bit more), it's worth adding that no, I'm not being paid to go on & on about it -- I just think it's that good... :)
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
I'd like to add that I've had the same problem. Most of the documentation is either way too easy, or rather difficult. In the first case, it's often pages and pages of "hit the key with an upwards-pointing arrow to go up", whereas with the former it's "use to so that you can accomplish ".
:)
Just wanted to say I know how you feel
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
cool idea. easily implemented using a scripting setup like PHP, IMHO. The key is the text. Let me know when you've got a beta running, or if you need help setting it up.
Can your IM do this?
If you use debian, debianhelp.org is a good place to go :) or just try #debian on irc.debian.org (open projects network)
Tom Piwowar of the "Computer Guys" show puts this in perspective:
(You should definately read Jef Raskin's "The Humane Interface". He expands on many of the concepts you mention.)
The add/remove thing in windows is pretty stupid. In the current GUI paradigm, you add something to a to somewhere by dragging it and dropping it, but Microsoft forces the user to go through "Add new software" route, thus adding needless modes and complexity to the process. In windows, there are ordinary folders for documents, and then there are special folders like "My Documents", "Dial-up networking", "Printers", and other such folders with 'special' behaviors that break consistency with the behavior of regular documents and folders. Breaking consistency in a GUI system is A Bad Thing(tm). Microsoft never designed windows to be easy, they designed it to be different than MacOS.
For all of MacOS' technical faults, installation of programs was consistent with the drag and drop nature of the UI. In those heady days of System 7, you installed a program by dragging the folder it was inside from the CD-ROM or floppy and dropping it to wherever the hell you wanted to put it. Everything was either a folder or a file that went into a folder. No folders (in most cases) had any "special" behaviors that were inconsistent with the behavior of your run-of-the-mill user-created folder. MacOS was also built like a tank. Any program could run without the need for a config file. Preference files were seperate files (what I call "protected configuration"), not one big, easily corruptable binary database. A config file got busted, you trashed it and it was rebuilt the next time you ran the program (what I call "regenerative configuration"). Enough metadata was kept in the file system (though the dual fork system) to rebuild the file typing database system if it got munged. It's a system like this that users need. Too many people do too little with their computers because they are so afraid of permanently screwing them up, and we have the folks in Redmond to thank for this. In end-user land, it's not the crash that kills, it's the permanent screw up.
I am seriously considering ripping off GNUstep's file bundle code and putting that into some form of Linux distribution. The biggest technical problem that desktop linux faces right now is finding a good way to describe what consistutes an application and the applets, documents, libraries, and other stuff that go along with it. People have tried with RPM and dpkg, but these systems make an OS installation damn easy to destroy, and spread the application installation so far apart it becomes unmanagable. Putting an application installation into a single folder and GUI-wise pretending that it's a single executable is the best way that anyone has ever done it. A HURD bundle service would kick ass (If HURD could just add hardware support for, well, just about everything I'd be set).
Keep up the good work with FLTKThis is a dramatic change in computer using from Windows/Mac to linux.
First, recognize that linux can do just about any network function possible on a computer. Most of these require some sys admin skills to accomplish, and have HOWTOs included with the distribution.
Other. simpler functions, have a variety of ways to receive help. Usenet is a great resource for linux. So are the help documents for KDE/GNOME. So are man pages. So are web sites.
In general, for linux, you NEVER call a help line, or consult a hard copy. The references are on the computer or on the net. Just search for what you want with Google, check the HOWTOs, acclimatize to using man -k and locate, and enjoy the ride.
You will eventually come to realize that help resources for linux dwarf those available for vendor operating systems, since the help inevitably comes from the user base.
Think UNIX by Jon Lasser is one of the best books on this subject. The book is geared toward Windows people who want to learn UNIX.
It not only shows individual commands, but it also explains why UNIX does things this way. It is a very generic UNIX book (would be useful for Linux to Solaris to FreeBSD to AIX).
I think that the packaged documentation for most distros generally does a good job of this, and are one of the most important arguments for buying a packaged distro, instead of downloading it (remember, free as in speech, not necessarily free as in beer). These basic manuals generally do a less good job of making you fundamentally understand how Linux works. You'll learn linuxconf, but you won't really learn shell scripts.
Luckily, that's what howtos are for. Linux is not easy, I won't deny that, but with a basic user's manual, and if necessary a look at the howtos and man pages, it should take no longer to build up Linux proficiency than it took the user to build up Windows proficiency.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
I tried to make the switch a while back and retreated in frustration and for lack of time. But I found that there were really TWO things that I wanted:
1) A good primer on the basic principles and structure of *nix OS's.
2) A set of condensed HOWTOs designed to get a clueful windows user up to speed quickly with Gnome/KDE.
These are really two very different things, but I think they would be complementary and they are both necessary: A "Monkey-see, monkey-do" starter gets you up and running quickly, while the *nix principles book gives you a basis for understanding what you're really doing when you go throug the motions outlined in the HOWTOs.
"Research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing." -- Wernher von Braun
I started on this quest to master *nix almost three years ago, and I still can't believe how much I have yet to learn! You really can go as far as you want with this.
Anyhoo, here're the names of a few books I found exceptionally useful:
Running Linux (O'Reilly)Slackware Linux Unleashed (Sams)
Unix Power Tools (O'Reilly)
Linux In Plain English (MIS)
Linux In A Nutshell (O'Reilly)
Maximum Linux Security (Sams)
Learning The Bash Shell (O'Reilly)
Essential System Administration (O'Reilly)
There are also plenty of specialised books that I highly recommend, such as:
Learning The vi Editor (O'Reilly)Apache, The Definitive Guide (O'Reilly)
TCP/IP Network Administration (O'Reilly)
Samba Unleashed (Sams)
The Linux Network (MIS)
There are quite a few newer books out there now targetting the recent migrant. Try the Visual Kickstart (I think I remembered that name correctly!) or Visually (blue & white series, lotsa pictures) series. My wife has also reported that the Idiot's Guide books are much better than the Dummies books! *grin* She's also reported good luck with the Sams Teach Yourself In (insert time here) series. They have distro-specific and desktop-specific tomes. Their KDE book looked like it might be helpful to you.
I hope this was useful to ^someone^!
Cheers,
~wmaheriv
~wmaheriv
"Shema Yisroel- Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Echad!"
The question of an "Add-Remove Programs" equivalent is a good example. It's not enough to say "Use GnoRPM or KPackage". Both programs have tons of geek-oriented features that are very useful for the system administrator, but are totally bewildering to somebody used to a simple Windows CPL applet.
Now, it wouldn't be hard to tweak these programs to provide a simplified interface for most add-remove tasks that any Windows person would recognize. But nobody's done this. Why? Because this is "free" software. If these were proprietary systems attempting to compete with Windows, somebody would have been told to make sure all the control-panel equivalents were in place. But on these projects, things don't happen until somebody volunteers to do them. In fact, the volunteer who implements a feature is often the same person who identified the need for that same feature.
The bottom line is that a real Add-Remove equivalent will appear when Gnome and KDE appear on enough desktops to create a continuing refrain of "Where's Add-Remove programs?" Whereupon somebody will decide that it's easier to implement this feature than to keep answering the question. And this will iterate through all the common GUI bells and whistles until both Gnome and KDE can be configured to be indistinguishable (to the end user) from any flavor of Windows or Mac.
Assuming this whole crazy endeavor lasts that long, of course!!!!
__________________
As a recent convert myself, the lack of a straightforward tutorial on the whole bloody system was the most frustrating thing. Luckily, I had bought a shrink-wrap version of Mandrake, and the manual that was included did help to a great extent. Things like WINE and just setting up a printer are rather glossed over, though. The store bought "idiots guides" are really no good, as they never address the differences in KDE, KDE2, GNOME..ect...
You can make all the newbie references you want, but until someone puts out more comprehensive and easier to find, more understandable documentation, don't expect the rest of the world to jump on Linux.
Dirty Pirate Hooker
That's the impression I got when I first switched to Linux 3 years ago (and again last year). That I was formerly a Windows user and, therefore, an idiot. (Trying to read a man page, after being used to the GUI in Windows help, was an exercise in frustration). Perhaps it's a backlash being performed subliminally by the Linux documenters?
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
KDE v2 has a great help system. Allow me to quote from the menu: "introduction to kde", including: overview, launching apps, working with windows, managing files, configuring the desktop, etc; "KDE user's manual" which goes more in depth about pretty much everything; "application manuals"; "UNIX man pages"; "tutorials"; "KDE FAQ"; etc, etc. You get all this just by installing it (and pretty soon distributions should ship with it default).
I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
I don't think every person who has successfully installed and successfully run Linux are automatically obligated to help every schmoe who wants to install it. Some people try to install it just so they can 'belong' to this odd secret society. BUT, if you are hanging out in a location that a newbie will go for assistance and claim to be a Linux expert, that is akin to hanging out in the ER while saying you are a doctor. You can expect people coming to you for help.
This is not the way to build a lasting empire.
Because it's not true. The real advantages of Linux over Windows -- the command-line, the ability to look under the hood and the fact that every action and byte on your system is ultimately under your control - aren't things that can be explained to you. You'll have to play around a while before the light goes on.
That said, the best thing to do is probably to buy a book. There are a bunch of desktop- or distribution- specific bookls that sound like they're written from the perspective you want.
KDE, by the way, does have the sort of general documentation you want. Select "Help" from the K menu or type khelpcenter & at a command prompt. IIRC, Gnome has similar documents.
if you'd like a good text-mode "help!" manual, I found that an older copy of UNIX for Dummies (probably written while Linux was a 1.2 kernel) was good, it talked about .bashrc and .profile and such as well as vi and emacs and mutt and other programs that will make life a LOT easier. It also talked about how to get help, how to change environment stuff, permissions, ownership of files, etc. When that book is really really clear, they recommend a book (printed in the intro) that they like for UNIX administration. That'd be my next step.
"Titanic was 3hr and 17min long. They could have lost 3hr and 17min from that."
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
I'd say I see that Windows and Linux are showing that there are two desktop markets out there - one for the industry/academia (i.e., people who use computers run networks, develop new software, or even - to compute!), and the "mass" market for folks who want passive entertainment and a very simple multimedia/internet GUI. Clearly Linux wins hands down in the industry/academia market. The mass market would best be served, IMHO, by ebedded OSes, ala embedded Linux, PalmOS . . . these folks don't need or want full-blown Linux, but they do want the stability that Linux offers over Microsquish, so why not give them what they want? - i.e., embedded-OS desktop, dasboard, handheld, ceiling-mounted and waterproof shower-stall appliances! Windows is a mess because it tries to hit both markets, and Linux will turn into a similar mess if it does too - the desktops are cumbersome and buggy and I find myself going back to command-line stuff to avoid KDE2 - I just bought 64M more RAM to make it run off the swap partition - this is the kind of shit I dumped Windows to avoid! Keep it simple and stable, and dumb it down for non-hackers.
PEACE LOVE FREEDOM ANARCHY
Useful utilities:
Editor: pico
Terminal: minicom
Mail reader: pine
Web "browser": lynx
clock synch: xntpd (look in /etc/rc.d/init.d)
last - shows last users logged in
nmap - shows ports eg "nmap localhost"
vmstat shows cpu etc status over time, eg: "vmstat 2 5" (=5x at 2s intervals)
cat /proc/cpuinfo tells you your cpu details :)
cat /proc/interrupts - tells you your interrupts
pstree [-a][-G] - see process tree
dnsquery - better nslookup :)
Config tools:
Linux configure (x) linuxconf
Print configurator (x) printtool
configure network netconf
Commands, general Linux:
Type a file cat
Type a file: more
Type a file (better): less
See file details: stat
Make a directory: mkdir
Allow all to r/w: chmod 666
Allow all to r/w/x: chmod 777
find a file: locate
refresh locate database: updatedb
See all processes: ps xa See free memory: free:
Help on a command: man
Login as other: su
Create user: /usr/sbin/useradd
Set password: passwd []
See disk status: df
Rotate logs: rotatelogs
Write clock to cmos: /sbin/clock -w
see environment sets: printenv
display tty settings: stty -a
see linux version: uname -r
make a tar.gz file: tar -czf
mail quick msg: echo 'message' | mail mvw@fido.ca
See text contents of an exe: strings |grep
cookie: /usr/games/fortune
Network commands:
configure network netconf
network status (live) netstat
IP configuration ifconfig
dns lookup nslookup
dns lookup, full nslookup, then "ls -d "
There's a lot more. And I carry this with me wherever I go... :)
---
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BDOS ERR ON A:>
I run Red Hat 7.0.1. Which has KDE, Gnome, and Enlightenment inside. It's loaded with page after page of those "man pages". Most likely, in the case of most distros. The techniques will work generally the same. Though I don't have Jedi experience in running all Linux Distros, I do know that the format between them is generally the same. Linux.org has an online tutorial course that you can spend a few days going through and that will help too. Make sure that if you do walk throughthe online tutorials, make sure to read everything. It may seem kind of painful at first, but the new user gets the whole story right from the beginning.
.
Red Hat has plenty of quality documentation on their website. Newbie or linux veteran, there's lots of stuff for everyone.
http://www.redhat.com/apps/support/
My wife has a Ph.D in New Media Technologies and I am her programmer. We experimented with an idea that has excellent promise for computer-based academic learning. We did a series of studies to validate the significantly improved effectiveness of recall, comprehension, and faster learning of the following method (and are developing our last one now): EXPANDING HYPERTEXT Imagine seeing your tutorial as a synopsis with, perhaps, only one sentece covering each major point. But each sentence is an "expanding hyperlink" that, when clicked, elaborates on the point. Under that elaboration, further hyperlinks may exist. After clicking on everything that interests you, the text is molding into one tutorial crafted specifically for YOUR informational needs and interests. This means your attention is not lost reading mountains of B.S. in order to get to the point and it greatly increases the richness of content that is useful to you at what ever your current state of understanding of the topic is. One major part of this technology is enabling the reader to adapt a text to his/her own needs. It employs a new kind of hyperlink--the expanding link, which inserts text into the current document rather than taking the reader to a separate page. The conventional hyperlink (we call it the "paged link") has a strong tendency to disorient readers. It's very effective for reference documentation but is significantly less effective for tutorials than is simply one long page of text (or one long series of pages, chronologically ordered (that we call "linear text")). I did my previous versions of the test applications using Visual Basic, but I am now trying to workout a Javascript implementation. --Matthew
One was oriented more towards programmers; the other towards idiots.
;-)
Well, what else is there?
1) buy a distribution. Suse Linux has an excellent users manual. Well laid out, I know many an NT user who found this one useful.
2) Read the docs. Again from a Suse perspective , they have an excellent knowledge base and website with tonnes of docs.
3) Stop expecting "doing x ni linux is like doing y in windows". I think you need to understand the underpinnings of Unix a bit more. Windows NT dulls the mind of an IT person. Seriously, flame me away, but you are so shielded from what the OS is doing that eventually you think the world is controlled through an applet.
4) O'Rielly publishes tones of books, they're a hell of an investment since you will use them regularly, I have been using Linux as my main OS and at work (programming fibre optics simulations) for 4 years and I still refer to them.
I think it's kind of silly to assume that we need a document that says if you do "this" in windows , you do "this" in Linux. There are docs, there are books, of excellent quality and free (on the net). Read them first. If you buy a distribution, you will always get a manual, which requires reading before installation.
I simply don't understand the griping, you move to a new OS , wether it's end user, programmer, IT , admin...you should be prepared to learn how that new OS works.
Everyone seems to just jump right in and complain about how hard it is to get help for Linux in general, but the article specifically asks about GNOME and KDE. I don't know how well Windows users are catered to, but there is the GNOME User's Guide, as well as one for the K Desktop Environment. I hope these help.
It's a good point... balancing between Windows Friendly (and limiting), and Linux powerful (and confusing). And I think we need both. Windows does extremely well on the friendly side, but like you say you're at the mercy of MS to decide what you can and can't do. And most of the time they decide to let you have 80% control, with that remaining 20% becoming a serious issue if you want to do something complicated. Linux allows you do to everything... but the easy, idiot friendly parts are lacking.
I think both can coexist, in the very nature of seperate distributions. Even on the same computer, you should have the option of installing idiot friendly parts (probably a bunch of nice front ends and helpful docs). There's a lot of work in this area, but it's still only half easy, and for other things you have to delve into the real linux stuff. I'd love a system that is as easy to use as windows, stable as linux, with the option to drop down to console and cfg files when I need to tweak something complicated. But for all of my daily tasks (setup and everyday use), I'd love for linux to be point-and-click obvious. Right now, I think it's safe to say that linux distro's are a little lopsided in favor of the tech side, and could use some work on being idiot friendly.
This excludes, of course, distros that try to avoid any bloat at all... idiot friendly is in it's nature more bloated than console-type stuff.
Just a thought from a simliar windows-experienced-trying-to-get-into-linux guy.
James
A WYSIWYG editor that will run from a terminal screen
What do you mean "terminal screen"? A WYSIWYG editor won't easily run in the VGA's text mode, as WYSIWYG editors require proportional fonts.
Sorry, guys, but vi and emacs both suck bigtime for former Windows users!
I agree with you on vi(le); try pico, joe, jed, etc. But Emacs isn't that hard. The seven commands you need to know for Emacs are
- open: Ctrl+x Ctrl+f
- save: Ctrl+x Ctrl+s
- quit: Ctrl+x Ctrl+c
- start selection: Ctrl+space
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What's so hard about that?Tetris on drugs, NES music, and GNOME vs. KDE Bingo.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I cursed and cursed. I learned emacs. I unlearned all those windows keystrokes. (not really, its kool to switch my fingers to windows mode on a win box). I killed gnome and kde and installed a gui that used only a few megs (in code and execution) and was as foreign looking to Windoze as possible, Windowmaker
But as I learned to make major changes to my system without a gui or goddamn, *f-ing rebooting every 5 minutes I began to feel that godlike power agian that hooked me on computers back when I was 9. I began to love Linux. I feel natural with it and can really get around.
Funny, but just after that transition phase I took an engineering management role in a dot com and help in the setup of a several hundred K in unix hardware (smp sun boxes, linux, raid arrays, yada). I can tell you being able to live at the command line (and I mead live - getting help, light browsing, writing code (java and c++), working with multiple apps, email) was incredibly useful - I'd say mecessary
Though I've said alot, I don't know what to say. Sometimes I actually don't want every joe 6 pack to be running linux. The prideful part of me says, "learn the goddamn system and stop complaining. And if you can't, puleeze go back to windows. Grandma shouldn't be anywhere near a linux box anyway." The human part of me (oh, pride IS human, Doh) says, "*sniff*, try these:"
linuxhelp.net
linuxhelp.org
linuxselfhelp.com
linuxnewbie.org
How To's
by O'Reilly. This is what it looks like . I know posts for this book are becoming like Natalie Portman/Beowulf Cluster FUD but damnit I learned a lot of good fundamentals in there. It'll teach you everything you need to know about getting started and basic use. It's easy to read and more importantly, easy to follow along in its examples. I've only been using Linux for about 6 months and this book really helped a lot.
Read it, live it, love it. Running Linux.
"Me Ted"
BOSTON SUCKS!
I argue your number 3. We don't need to completely understand the foundation of Unix in order to install gaim on Suse or establish an internet connection.
My point is this: learning should be a part of the using process (as it is with windows..it's usable when you don't understand everything). Learning should NOT be a prerequisite to doing anything useful with the OS.
I believe it would be immensely helpful to have "doing x in Linux is like doing y in windows." Your elitism, saying "read them first" and so forth are exactly what have turned me off from Linux. Several times I have installed Linux on various computers and got it to work, but have been frustrated because I don't know how to do many simple things and documentation is either simple to the point where it's not helpful or complex to the point where I don't know what they're talking about. Many times I have gone to #linux on DALnet or something and asked a simple question, only to be told "Read the Fucking Howto's, it's in there" by several people. It's IMPOSSIBLE to get help there, and I have nowhere else to turn when the HOWTO's have failed me.
I'm not a stupid guy. I'm the resident hardware guy at my dorm, make $18 an hour teaching a guy A+ and how to do various advanced things in Windows, and I learn quickly. But I don't have large amounts of time time to devote to learning linux due to school, gf, etc. There is absolutely nothing out there to help a guy like me pick up how to do simple things in Linux quickly. That is what the Ask Slashdotter was trying to convey. Such a thing CAN exist, and such a thing WOULD help large numbers of people (slightly below the no-gf-having geek loser Linux elite and slightly above the novice programmer) learn and USE linux.
Everyone complains that Linux is the domain of 1337 h4x0r5 or whatever. It is not that hard, but it does take an investment of time people like myself cannot make. We are the next logical step for linux to take over. The help the poseter wants CAN and WILL make that happen.
We don't need to make Linux easier like everyone has always said. WE NEED TO FACILITATE LEARNING IT. Linux isn't inherently hard, but it is a leap moving from someone who is really good at windows to someone who can effectively use Linux.
Of course, none of this will be able to happen without a set of standards. Support the LSB!
Man, that is the exact thinking that will prevent Linux from becoming mainstream and its wrong to advocate it. Yes, newbies can be annoying but they are critical to this whole OS revolution. The sad trend I have seen in the IRC channels (and yes even the occaisional /. post) is that newbies are shunned or tortured by people like you. How many times can the 'Guru' crowd say to newbies "That's an easy fix just rm -rf this directory" which is tantamount to "deltree windows" before the snobbery kills off Linux? Instead, how about giving a newbie good advice or not hanging out in the channels where they will flock if their existense bothers you so much. Not all of us are as perfect and all knowing as you. Am I to assume you never had a linux question? Whatever you do please don't chastise the ignorant or uneducated as in the end you will regret it. In the real world you only have two choices: 1) watch and help the user base grow (supply good info and encourage the progress) or 2) watch and help the user base shrink(supply bad info and purposefully seal Linux's fate). To me it seems by your post you are advocating that the numbers slide along laterally which would eventually spell out the death of linux which is not what we all want. If no one is using it then no one will develop for it and no corporations will sink any money into it etc. We still have a very long way to go before the number of linux users hits the critical popularity mass you are afraid of.
Prospecting Stinks. Stop Wasting Time on Cold Calling.
ONLY THEN a typical user without that much computer skills can savely wipe any OS from his harddisk and start fresh with Linux, knowing he won't be facing questions he can't resolve without having to peek on a website he can't visit because his system doesn't contain any OS.
Which opens up the first goal: a program that first checks the system of the user if the distro he wants to install on that system is able to run the distro, and if all hardware is supported. This program should obviously run under win32 or typical other OS the user will leave behind. (Microsoft has this kind of program to test if your system is able to run windows2000 and which parts of your system need new drivers, where to get them etc).
I think this will only succeed if the people who now work on Linux (i.e. program on the kernel, window managers and other key system items) change their focus from the "all knowing geek who wants to control every freaking byte of his system" towards the more mainstream average kinda user, who needs/wants help along the way. This will be tough because the people who DO work on the kernel/key system items ARE mostly people who want to control every damn setting of their system, which is EXACTLY the reason why they don't use windows.
--
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Coming from the same background, I've found that O'Reilly's Running Linux has been a great help - I'm thinking of getting more of that series to help me learn more.
/. (on usage of linux for whatever reasons) might help. Even if you don't know exactly what's going on, you at least get exposure to the terms and methodologies.
I'm not sure if this is obvious or not, but if you have a good bit of free time, reading through posts on
What I want to see personally is something along the lines of:
What is the equivilent of add/remove programs?
What is the equivilent of autoexec.bat/startup folder?
Where is dialup networking?
Where is device manager/what the heck do I do with this linux driver on disk?
How do you do this 'webserver' thing that linux is supposed to be so good at?
I love going down to the elementary school, watching all the kids jump and shout, but they dont know I'm using blanks.
I had no knowledge of what to do about it, couldn't find any man page on point, and had no one to ask, so I wiped it off the box and started over.
Now I'm reading reading reading about security *before* I go online again. What I don't understand is: why doesn't anybody warn you in bold letters about shutting down telnet, etc.? Linux is too powerful for newbies unless someone helps us fast and early to know what to watch out for. It needs to be in the installation manual, not online, so you aren't root-owned while you're reading the documentation pages.
If no one will do that, if anyone would set up a site for a manual for newbies, I'd surely help write for it.
It's a Catch22 with Gnu/Linux...you can't get it up and running until you know something about it, and you can't really get to know something about it or even comprehend it until it *is* up and running. At least I can't. I specifically bought RedHat as a distro so I could get help from another human. But they only help you install and after that you are on your own. If you then call and ask how to shut off things, they won't help at all, because they "only help with installation"...It's astonishingly user-hostile, compared to the proprietary software world. I'm puzzled as to how they plan to make their business work out, unless they just don't care about individual users and are focused solely on businesses. Maybe it costs too much to help users and that's why they draw the line where they do.
Having griped until I feel better, I think it's important to say this: that the whole point of Gnu/Linux is to eventually know what you are doing. You can't just make it totally click and point and still have the real value of Gnu/Linux. I understand that and am willing to do my time to get the knowledge base I need. But what we really need is help at the beginning to get started and set up, safely. And newbies need to be able to ask questions, specific questions, from someone who knows, because the documentation is never exactly your distro or your situation. Plus there will never be a manual that explains everything to everyone well, with no need for questions. Proprietary software folks know that and set up for it. I mention this because of all the comments about how annoying newbie questions are. Questions are how you learn.
So why not set up a site where newbie questions can be asked and answered? Not just with FAQs, but with a way to email a question. Dell has a great system for that. You do get a FAQ as your first answer, and usually that's enough because they are so thorough (as in "check to make sure your computer is plugged in") and well-written, but if you still need help, you can write back and get it. That way we newbies won't ruin things by asking stupid questions anywhere else. And if we stray off the reservation and ask a question in the wrong venue, you can just point us to that site. It's clear from all the comments that no such site currently exists. Again, speaking for myself, I absolutely volunteer to help anyone who sets up such a site. Just post where to go and I'll be there, seriously committed.
Why? Because I have lived it and know how great the need is for this. And because though I never intended to study computer science, and shouldn't have to go too far down that road before I can use an OS, I understand that open/free is valuable and would gladly contribute what I can.
I also understand that there is a chasm between newbies and programmers and we speak and think in different ways, so what helps *you* with no trouble is hard for me. On the other hand, you probably don't know much about the law, and I work in that field. I can usually read a judge's ruling and know what it means, while you might be puzzled, because you don't know the lingo and lack experience in the field and so would need to ask someone what it all means. Even smart people need to ask for explanations in a field that isn't their own. You could see that clearly when the media was thrashing about with court rulings in the recent US election. Just clueless and misleading coverage as a result. If the person you asked for an explanation answered: "Just read the law", would that help? I say no, because you lack the knowledge to understand what the law means and how it works out in real life. It's no different with computer knowledge. We do need help understanding what it all means and how it works out in real life because we lack the background and experience to get it on our own. Most of us also lack the time and the interest to actually learn how to program. Should that be required to use Gnu/Linux? If not, then where is that helping hand for us Windows refugees?
So, how about it? Anyone?