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Battery powered cars will never become popular. Who wants to wait hours (or even tens of minutes) to recharge a battery? Hydrogen powered cars are the future, not battery powered cars. Honda have already created a car that runs off hydrogen: http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

Hydrogen sounds cool and it's a great PR stunt but the physics don't work. You'll never get 500 miles out of a hydrogen car. 200 miles would be an achievement and electrics can already do that. The power density is really low for what can be stored in a car. Also storage is an issue period since hydrogen loves to leak. I've been hearing about absorption based systems since the 70s but none has really proven itself. The major problem with hydrogen is it has to be extracted and it's an net energy loss extracting it. Batteries are more efficient. It'll be tough to get hydrogen to match gas prices where as electrics are already far cheaper to operate. Fuels cells are also likely to always be more expensive than batteries so it's not a cheaper option to make the cars or the fuel. Would you still want hydrogen if it was going to cost you 50% more than electric to buy and several times as much per mile? The source for the power to extract it is a major issue. I know nuclear is supposed to save us but we've yet to deal with the waste from the last 50 years and nuclear has never provided more than 14% of the power worldwide. That means 7X the waste and uranium each year to replace existing sources. There isn't enough uranium let alone waste storage for it all. It'd take decades to ramp up and we don't have that much time left in oil reserves. The economic collapse actually bought us a few years but we need new sources in five to ten years not twenty. Wind and solar may not seem as limitless but nuclear is far from limitless it's just another finite resource that can't keep up with demand. We've got to stop trying to find one magic bullet to solve all our woes and tap different sources for more long term solutions. We have two major sources of energy currently used, stored energy like mineral energy and petroleum and solar sources which include biofuels. Wind and tide power are other sources but they need to be better tapped. Solar, wind and tide are long term solutions. Mineral sources are finite and most will soon be exhausted. Even coal won't last forever just long enough to ruin the environment. One way or the other electric is the future because even hydrogen comes from electric it's just not very practical.

Battery powered cars will never become popular. Who wants to wait hours (or even tens of minutes) to recharge a battery? Hydrogen powered cars are the future, not battery powered cars. Honda have already created a car that runs off hydrogen: http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

Honda is really not that different from Toyota. Every manufacturer has cars that have X problems especially when launching a new technology, line or integration.

Hydrogen, currently, has higher energy density, BUT has issues with storage, as well as usage (motors are very inefficient and fuel cells are a LONG ways off). LONG before hydrogen issues are solved, batteries will have a higher energy density (assuming that hydrogen can not be compressed infinitly).

Fuel cells are currently being used in cars today, so they are definitely NOT a "LONG ways off".

All of your complaints are just complaints, that have already been addressed. It's FUD.

Electric motors are far more efficient at converting power to usable kinetic energy than gasoline engines, yet you actually try to bring this up? Are you "that guy" who makes up non-issues? Sure sounds like it. Hell, if you're so convinced that current engines are so efficient, they can just burn the hydrogen instead.

And to counter a previous statement you made saying there's no free source of hydrogen, you're wrong. I have a solar photovoltaic (pv) panel that can give me "free hydrogen" from water, and I can use the O2 in other applications. And a car can convert it back to water, essentially making it a solar-powered car, with zero emissions. PV panels convert water and use some energy used to liquify the H2, sell the O2, then car converts remaining H2 back to H2O with a free electron used to run the engine.

The only concession I'll give you is that pv panels would not be able to produce enough for all the cars, were they all retrofitted. But that's the entire point of tfa, to find more efficient methods of getting hydrogen. It would take work to develop a hydrogen economy, and still have enough fuel for those that wanted it. But, if other more efficient methods of producing hydrogen could be found, that'd make it take far less space and be much more efficient. Currently available panels range in efficiency from 8% (for A-Si) to 20% or so (hybrid A-Si + C-Si), and electrolysis of water uses a lot of energy (which is why it give so much energy back). Harnessing the crapton of power from the sun for this is the obvious way to do it, so usable methods of stripping off the hydrogen is important.

To boot, diesel fuel used to be cheap. Now it is usually selling higher than gasoline.

Diesel fuel has only been more expensive in the last two years because of the "perfect storm" of the switch to ULSD, supply disruptions (Katrina, etc.) and economic instability all at the same time. Now that things have settled down a bit, Diesel has been consistently about the same price as regular unleaded for something like six months now.

...a fuel that is hard to find...

Diesel is not hard to find. I live in a large urban area (note: actually in it, not in the suburbs), which would be the type of area least likely to stock diesel, but even so at least half of the gas stations have it.

...pollutes the environment with sulfur and particulate matter...

And gasoline pollutes the environment with NOx, VOCs, CO, and (comparatively more) CO2. Diesel merely pollutes differently from gasoline, not worse.

Besides, between ULSD and (better yet) biodiesel, diesel technology has become significantly cleaner recently. (In fact, my TDI running B100 doesn't produce any sulfur emissions at all!)

...is just a dog performance wise?

First of all, although diesels have comparatively low horsepower because they don't generally rev as high as gasoline engines, they have lots of torque. They'll "feel" quicker than a comparable gasoline car (even one with exactly the same 0-60 time) -- nothing "dog-like" about that! Second, even my 11-year-old, lightly modded VW New Beetle TDI has performance at least equal to a 1.8T ("lightly modded" means ECU reprogramming and larger injector nozzles, for which I spent a grand total of $400). Third, newer diesels have plenty of power. In fact, the BMW 3-series diesel is second only to the M3 in performance! Fourth, but not least, "performance" includes handling too, and the popular hybrids (the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight) have crappy suspensions compared to the popular diesel (the VW Jetta). This isn't an inherent difference, but it is a practical one for now.

Maybe if someone was a VW fan, but there are far economical and more fun to drive vehicles.

Although I own a VW, I am not even slightly a "VW fan" (I own it despite the fact that it's a VW, not because of it). So believe me when I say that, although there are more economical vehicles and more fun-to-drive vehicles, there are not any that are both at the same time. At least not until the Honda CR-Z comes out, anyway (and maybe not even then, if the CR-Z isn't available with a manual transmission).

Hybrids have left the diesels in the dust when it comes to both gas mileage, sustainability, and performance.

The 2009 Jetta TDI beat all the hybrids for "Green Car of the Year." Hybrids win on gas mileage for city stop-and-go driving but diesels win for highway driving, which means that "better" depends on the individual driver's city/highway ratio, and is probably a tie when you aggregate all American drivers together. All hybrids require petroleum fuel (even if they were "flex-fuel"-compatible, which AFAIK they aren't except maybe for the models from Ford and Chevy, E85 is still 15% gasoline), while Diesels can run perfectly well on 100% biodiesel.* B100 is more sustainable than E85 (especially when the ethanol is derived from the edible parts of corn rather than something sane like sugar cane or cellulose), and much more sustainable than petroleum gasoline. And Diesels tend to beat hybrids in performance, not the other way around!

I am not a diesel fanboy (although this post might give that impression). I believe both diesel and hybrid technologies are worthwhile (in fact, I hope to

The eco-friendly vehicle will be powered by hydrogen fuel cells and made from carbon composites.

Hydrogen fuel cells are extremely far from production. .

Then what's powering this http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/how-fcx-works.aspx

Science degree, actually.

The engineering degree wouldn't come out to play until actual engineering made an appearance.

Sigh...

Somebody piped up that they'd been working on a solar-powered car out at the local airport.

1. An EV takes about 1kwh to go 1 mile.
2. The sun's power on the surface is ~ 1.4kW/m^2.
3. Average footprint of a car: Honda Civic: 4.5Mx1.4M, surface area: 6.5m^2, being generous. No loss for windows, the car's covered in solar panels, etc...
Math:
40mph@1kwh/mile = 40kwh/hour = 40 kw needed.
6.5m^2*1.4kW/m^2 = 9kW, assuming 100% effective solar cells. More likely 1.8-2.7kw assuming real world 20-30% efficient cells.

So the solar cells are producing ~6% of the power necessary for the car. Even with batteries, you'd need 16-17 hours of sun for every hour of operation. You'd be better off putting the panels on your roof and feeding to the grid then using the grid to charge your electric car, than to risk the expensive and fragile cells in an accident.

As for the $5 of 'fuel' to get it started, I have no clue. What kind of fuel is it? Heck, I don't even know if they're proposing using electric solar panels. It could be a solar steam engine for all I know, but the energy requirements are the same, and a solar steam engine would present efficiency problems of it's own, especially on a mobile platform(basically, solar steam scales up well, it's best used for huge, static, power production plants).

Do you agree with my math? Is there something missing? Competition solar 'cars' work by weighing less than go carts, operating in a desert during the summer(and hoping for no clouds), having low maximum speeds, extreme profiling, limited to the driver, no cargo room, little to no considerations for safety in a crash. Which wouldn't work for a 'family commuter'.

Do you have a specific proposal in that page you'd like for me to comment on? Keep in mind on any 'patent suppression' that patents expire, and to get one requires people to register that idea. After the expiration, anybody can take the patent documentation to build their own device.

Considerations
a) Engine lifespan - some additive may help extend engine life - perhaps lead?
b) Prohibit items grown for fuel from lowering food supplies - Don't use land that could grow food
c) Well to Wheel Mileage is what matters - Cost to "get the fuel" matters. Using 2 gal of fuel to grow 1 gal of ethanol is stupid.

I'm just a simple engineer. CNG, seems like the best answer for the next 20 years or so, but decoupling the power train from the fuel seems like the smartest route. That means, all electric vehicles with gas, CNG, fuel-cell, and/or whatever chargers built in. The Honda natural gas to hydrogen house converters http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/FCX/station/ are very interesting even with the lack of extremely high efficiency in the conversion process.

How do you plan to haul it around in your car?

It seems like a few car companies have already answered that.

Gee dude, the Norway link was right in the main post you replied to... perhaps you should have read a little further before you fired off a response. If Obama says Hydrogen is evil, it must be evil I supposed even if there are working solutions today... Better to run off chasing the new shiny thing!

It's about time this was submarined. I don't know what kind of craziness has led to the obsession with fuel cells. Not only is there no hydrogen distribution infrastructure of any kind, but fuel cells still haven't gotten out of the spaceship era.

Look around. We distribute liquid fuels all over the place today.

Hydrogen cells make a lot more sense than batteries do for cars, because they can be refueled instantly instead of having a delay.

And as for "spaceship stage", I guess you think the highways of today are futuristic - the FCX Clarity uses fuel cells. Yes that's a limited trial but those are real production cars o n the road. They'd be a lot LESS futuristic if people would spend more money developing them.

The future needs a mix of traditional batteries and fuel cells for the same reasons the world of today does. You can't just drop one and put all your research eggs in one basket.

this idea.

Last year, we read about/or i read about:

http://corporate.honda.com/safety/details.aspx?id=pedestrian

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/lifestyle/autos/news/article_1435518.php/Honda_improves_pedestrian_safety_with_new_generation_dummies

http://world.honda.com/news/2004/4040824_02.html

https://www.japancorp.net/Article.Asp?Art_ID=8166

this idea.

Last year, we read about/or i read about:

http://corporate.honda.com/safety/details.aspx?id=pedestrian

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/lifestyle/autos/news/article_1435518.php/Honda_improves_pedestrian_safety_with_new_generation_dummies

http://world.honda.com/news/2004/4040824_02.html

https://www.japancorp.net/Article.Asp?Art_ID=8166

actually even Honda has a truck too:
http://automobiles.honda.com/ridgeline/
(2 tonnes, 15mpg)

Actually, the Honda Gold Wing comes pretty close to being a car on two wheels. Of course, the S2000 is really a motorcycle on four wheels...

A 100hp generator weighs 1500 pounds.

Really? I assume you're including the substantial weight of a diesel engine to drive said generator, as a quick google search turns up the Winco EC75PSB4G-17 - a 75 kilowatt emergency backup generator head (just the part that turns shaft movement into AC power) that weighs in at 605 lbs. That's a unit intended for stationary use, not to be mounted to a vehicle. I'm sure a similar device intended for mobile use could be constructed from less massive materials.
In fact, may I direct you to look over the specifications page for the Honda FCX Clarity: link. There you will find that power from the vehicle's fuel cell stack and lithium ion battery is converted to motive force by a 100kW (134 hp) AC electric motor with integrated transaxle. While the page lacks a weight listing for said motive unit, I doubt it exceeds 400 lbs.

What's not economically viable about he Honda electric car that's powered by a hydrogen fuel cell?

Uh...it's available for lease at $600 a month. A bit over my price range and I get nothing in the end.

Aren't companies like Tesla making money selling electric cars?

Yup. At $109,000 per. Again, a bit over my price range.

So it's bit expensive for "everyone" to have an electric car.

So, when a company ...

builds a school somewhere

Tax writeoff, educate lots of future customers to use their products.

sponsors a race

"win on sunday, sell on monday"

hires a speaker who climbed mt everest

Tax writeoff, improve company morale

invests in some wild technology

ROI isn't always short term, especially for asian corps. Also, a great publicity generator.

IBM funds something like a big art exhibit

Tax writeoff.

See: http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/ Feel so confident about hydrogen being a "dead horse"...

Exteriors for both men and women and this seems to be something of a match in technology. but thise is this too ASIMO which can walk and run.

As the Hilux name was dropped in the US in 1976, any details listed here purporting to relate to the Hilux from that date may not be entirely correct when applied to the vehicle that continues to be marketed by Toyota as the Hilux throughout the rest of the world.

The product lines for the US and elsewhere diverged at that point and in many cases on a year for year basis the vehicles sold in the US only resemble the Hilux, with major mechanical/chassis differences.

This article is about the pickup sold in North America until 1994, and other markets as of today. For the 1995-present small pickup sold in North America, see Tacoma.

It appears to me that they don't sell the one you are referencing in the US. Even the Honda dealer I go to has a GM pickup truck. Looking at the US Honda Website, it isn't even listed. A 'Ridgeline' is. Also, in case you want to say anything about non-US vehicles, we have been talking about the US vehicle market, not the overseas market.

This is why all motorcycles are equipped with windshields. And why WWI era open-cockpit biplanes topped out at much less than 60mph airspeeds.

Where is the stock windscreen on my bike? Easy answer... there isn't one.

Forgive me, I just realized you have to be sarcastic, nobody makes generalizations like that in the era of Google and Wikipedia.

You can buy the Honda Civic GX natural gas vehicle right now if you're in New York or California.

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/

I looked into one but they don't sell them in Illinois. The big plus there is that we have a ton of natural gas in the country and supposedly if you used it for vehicle fueling right now, it would be equivalent to $1/gallon gas.

While I dearly love the CRX (I have owned two, second one ('91 HF) is still in my garage while I look for body panels and a new hood) and will keep this car forever (It is now my geek project car), and while I liked the original Insight (With its diminutive CRX-ish looks), I am excited about the possibilities for the CR-Z, which, according to scuttlebutt will be released in Europe soon and (crossed fingers) will make it to the States soon after that.

Oh, and to address the chicken and egg thingy, they make a home energy station that converts natural gas to hydrogen.

Can we lay off the car analogy now?

You mean, like the Honda FCX Clarity?

Unlike a segway, a car requires considerable parking space, maintenance, gas, etc.

For the money and distance, depending on climate, for this person a motorcycle may be in order. Something small and cheap like the Honda Rebel retails only for 3K which is cheaper/comparable to a segway:
http://powersports.honda.com/motorcycles/cruiser_standard/model.asp?ModelName=Rebel&ModelYear=2008&ModelId=CMX250C8

Or you could a bigger used one. What's nice about the rebel/night is the small engine size though, it only goes 80, but gets about 65-70mpg and depending on your driving style you could easily hit 80mpg. What more could you want in a mostly city environment?

Of course, if he's happy with the segway -- I ain't going to question it.

Just get a Honda Fit.
Yes I know it was a joke, no I don't work for Honda.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/ Surely they're not leasing $1,000,000 cars? These aren't prototypes...

Mind that the DX does not have an air conditioner, nor does it have an AC as an option.

Wrong.
The VW does not appear to have AC, the Honda Civic DX sedan offers it as an accessory.
Honda's Site

Well there is a tipping point at some point.

There will come a time when you go to a store as a drive thru,
and you wave a Fob key at a scanner with your shopping list
and a robot will start handing you bags to put in your back seat.

Then you drive off from the almost 100% robotic store,
or it will be delivered by said robotic truck to your house.

Your car will be built by robots.

Your house will be built by robots.

Your food will be grown and harvested by robots.

FBI at langley already have 'Electric sheep'

http://www.friendlyrobotics.com/about/news/

Once 90% of jobs are done by robots, then it will be well past
the tipping point.

A lot of ppl say there will be new jobs, but at some point any
job you can think of can be done by a very well programmed robot.

Its kinda like the ppl that think that the illegals that mow
your yard are too dumb to do any other job, then they show
up in construction and other jobs and ppl say hey wait !

The illegals can do any job here that they do in their home country,
and the robots will be doing the jobs at some point as well.

Asimo can already serve drinks, soon he will do other human
tasks with no problem.

http://asimo.honda.com/asimotv/

Then it just becomes about getting the price down.

When the robot can build and repair other robots then they
will not even need the factory workers.

They should have chosen a better vehicle. Perhaps something like this they could have integrated the screen into the console and made it a really sweet ride. Somebody want to gift one to me so I can build it and post the results?

1) Buy a VW Polo SE
2) Equip it with an electric hybrid system and a sleek body kit
3) $10m

Justification: If a civic gets 26/34, and a hybrid civic gets 40/45 then we're looking at a 50%/33% increase in milage for the same car. The Polo SE gets 51/74, * 1.5/1.33 = 76.5/98.4 . Surely that last 1.6mpg can be achieved with high effeciency tires and a lower drag coef.

It can't really be that easy, can it?

1) Buy a VW Polo SE
2) Equip it with an electric hybrid system and a sleek body kit
3) $10m

Justification: If a civic gets 26/34, and a hybrid civic gets 40/45 then we're looking at a 50%/33% increase in milage for the same car. The Polo SE gets 51/74, * 1.5/1.33 = 76.5/98.4 . Surely that last 1.6mpg can be achieved with high effeciency tires and a lower drag coef.

It can't really be that easy, can it?

It's tricky in that you're always going to have some leakage. It's not tricky in that it can't be allowed to escape because it's
radioactive.

Honda seems pretty optimistic that it's not an unsolvable problem.

It's not Toyota's fault that Americans would rather pay Toyota and get a nicer car than have a better standard of living for American auto workers

Honda has a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle that will be produced in limited numbers.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

There's a video of Jay Leno and the Clarity which pretty much debunks most of your reasoning about hydrogen never being viable. Honda is obsessed with safety, if they didn't think it could be done they would not continue to pour money into the R&D.

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/blog2/index.php/celebrities/jay-leno-takes-honda-clarity-for-a-ride/
I'm not sure if the actual video is in this link but it could be found at jaylenosgarage.com

GM needs to come out with some crazy stuff like this soon because they're failing in their core products.

Honda has been develloping CIGS technology for a few years now. I believe they are already selling these type of solar panels in Japan. http://world.honda.com/news/2005/c051219.html

You don't much know about cars, do you? The Volt has the room, size, and features of what's called a 'compact' or 'economy' car. Take, for instance, the Honda Civic, which retails starting at $15k. The Civic Hybrid is almost 22K, and has the features of the standard $15K model. That's DOUBLE the price for a modest increase in fuel economy.

If Chevy could price the Volt at under $20K, they would, in the words of Steve Ballmer, 'f**king KILL Honda', but I doubt this would ever happen.

You don't much know about cars, do you? The Volt has the room, size, and features of what's called a 'compact' or 'economy' car. Take, for instance, the Honda Civic, which retails starting at $15k. The Civic Hybrid is almost 22K, and has the features of the standard $15K model. That's DOUBLE the price for a modest increase in fuel economy.

If Chevy could price the Volt at under $20K, they would, in the words of Steve Ballmer, 'f**king KILL Honda', but I doubt this would ever happen.

We are not abandoning our industrial jobs, the unions are killing themselves off. If you want proof just look at the recent strike by the UAW, and keep in mind that while our automakers are shutting down plants and moving jobs to Mexico, foreign automakers are spending millions here to create plants that are competitive, and financially stable. Ask yourself why their plants are OK, and ours are failing.

http://world.honda.com/news/2006/c060629NewAutomobilePlant/

Honda is making jets now. Does that count?

Thankfully, no one asks you whenever there's a radical idea. Bet you'd be against this http://world.honda.com/HondaJet/ on the grounds of 'absolutely retarded' as well.

Honda of America Mfg., Inc., Marysville, Ohio. 3.8M sq. feet, 5,300 employees.

Like this one? And this one?

Per http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSi deBySidePopUp.jsp?column=1&id=7733, the most efficient 91 Tercel (in terms of highway mpg) was one w/a 4 speed manual, rated at 33/37. It had a curb weight of ~1950 to 2050 lbs. from looking at http://www.edmunds.com/used/1991/toyota/tercel/883 0/specs.html and autos.msn.com along w/a whopping 82 hp.

In comparison, a 2007 Honda Civic is EPA rated 30/40 w/auto, weighs 2690 to 2807 lbs (depending on trim per http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications _full_specs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Sedan&Category=4) and has 140 (!) hp.

"I'm glad they settled on the "bear" look then. Now that that hurdle has been overcome, the only other matter, of designing and building a functional, reliable semi-autonomous bipedal robot, should be trivial."

http://world.honda.com/ASIMO/

First, we have the description of the Insight from the Honda Web Site. You'll notice that the EPA highway mileage for this version (2006) are 6 MPG higher than the city numbers (66 versus 60). My estimated highway mileage in 2001 was higher.

Second, you might You might also find the owner opinions at insightcentral.net interesting. I've not posted there, but there are some excellent relevant quotes:

I have gone from L.A. to Pennsylvania on four tanks of gas. You have to have the right tire pressure, good gas, follow big vehicles, and just know how to get the most out of the car.

This is certainly a driver's car in many respects. Beyond it's fun-to-drive factor, the central fuel efficiency display has this almost subliminal effect on your driving, helping you to learn how to get the most efficiency out of the car. I think this is an often ignored part of the overall equation.

the Insight's gear ratios take a bit of getting used to. You really have to think of 1st and 2nd gears as accelerating gears, 5 (and at residential speeds 4th) as a cruising gear, and 3rd as highway passing gear. Acceleration is very lively in 1st - enough so that I find myself hesitant to put the pedal to the aluminum in first. Acceleration is also more than adequate in 2nd. These two gears are enough to take you from 0 - 60, which leads to the much talked about Insight 1, 2, 5 gear shifting pattern that some owners adopt for best efficiency (and a little fun along the way).

I bought the car in Kansas in June, then I moved to Maryland in September. On the 1200 or so mile trip, I averaged 73.1 mpg! That was cruising at about 70mph.

Finally, I would point you to a review of the Insight written in about 2005 titled, appropriately enough "Defeating Ignorance With Insight". Here's another relevant passage:

the Insight's estimates of 57 city/56 highway for the automatic transmission and 60/65 for the manual are impressive. And as amazing as those numbers are, real life data shows that it is possible to beat the EPA estimates (See Elsewhere on the Web: GreenHybrid.com mileage database). Forget about getting only 300 miles on a tank of gas.

The reviewer is right, of course. I got 600 miles on my last tank of gas, and filled up (on Friday) for $28.00. That's fairly typical, in my experience, but what do I know?

Honda has a cool Ultra Capacitor prototype, dubbed the FCX. From what I can tell, this is one of the "bleeding edge" protoypes that are both fast charging and have a fairly large capacity of about 1750W/kg, compared to 900W/kg (according to the above site).

I'd rather buy an iPhone. Oh, and since we're obviously advocating commercial articles, I'd like to mention that I'd be using my iPhone while driving my Honda Fit, listening to the Russ Martin Show.