Slashdot Mirror

This is the best I could Google up on such short notice:

"Despite the defeat of the sanctions bill in the fall of 1988, Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Claiborne Pell and other legislators have continued to press the case for sanctions. In June l989 Senator Pell presented an amendment to the Foreign Assistance Act that would require the President to make a determination whether Iraq consistently commits gross abuses of human rights. Aware that such a determination, if honestly made, would have to be in the affirmative, the Bush administration opposed the amendment, arguing once again that Iraq is "impervious to leverage." The State Department's Iraqi desk officer, Philip Remler, lamented that "Congress is not very protective of our relationship with Iraq."

At the end of September 1989, Senator Daniel Inouye put a rider on the Foreign Assistance Appropriations Act that barred the bank from further dealings with Iraq. The Inouye amendment, itself later amended to allow a Presidential override of the ban, became law in November. At year's end, the fate of the Pell amendment was still uncertain. "

If you care to find out more on your own, just Google around and you will see that a whole series of economic sanctions against Iraq became U.S. law in 89-90.

C) Invade Iraq and not kill so many civilians by being much more careful

In reality- It's a fucking difficult thing to do. Especially when the enemy you're fighting uses human shields. Not to mention every time a civilian dies because they get killed by a mugger or a Iraqi soldier, it's the US military's fault. At the end of the day, any dead people get stuck on the tally of whoever's in charge. (page 53)

D) Oust Saddam without invading Iraq (we do it all the time in other countries)

E) Lift Sanctions. Before we decided to impose sanctions after the Kuwait invasion, Iraq was one of the more prosperous nations. People were fed.

F) Find a relatively peacable solution to ousting the current regime. They do exist. For reference, see 1989: Germany, Poland, Soviet Union, Romania, Czechoslovakia

(btw- that's what we were trying to do for 10 years. We tried diplomatic means, didn't work, tried economic means, arguably made it worse, can't influence the population cuz the population isn't in control of shit. So we went to Plan D- take over.)

In reality- Saddam Hussein was one of the most brutal dictators of the 20th century. No, he didn't top Stalin or Hitler or Pol Pot, (yeah, our bad) but that doesn't mean we shouldn't come in and fix the blood that was dripping from his hands.

the US sucks.

Watch for the door on your way out.

Seriously though, be sure to compare USA vs. Malaysia before moving, or, indeed, before making such statements. There are also other concerns, but you probably don't care.

Is freedom really celebrated in India?

No, as shown with regard to US pulling out of the World Court.

Read about it here, here, here or here.

Oooh, this all started way before

2002, The US shows how the believe in world justice by taking on an act that allows the US to invade the netherlands.

see hrw

I have one friend who's been working in switzerland for a few years now

Ahhh, but that's Switzerland. Not India. With all due respect, India is a far cry from Switzerland. India may play the 'democracy', but I still consider it a third world nation in many respects. I also don't like the way Indians tend to treat women. I'd never subject my wife to that country.

In Florida, a state where Chief of Police Timoney suspends the Constitution at will - calling legitimate protesters "anarchists" and using obscene violence to squash freedom of expression

Home of Disney, sponser of the DMCA and SSSCA), who profits from child sweatshops child sweatshops

A State where black people can't vote black people can't vote)
and where lawyers and judges replace voters lawyers and judges replace voters

The only thing good about Florida is Fantasy Fest and Vice City.

What's wrong with Cuba? I was on holiday there recently - great place.

Cuba is a one-party state that restricts nearly all avenues of political dissent. The government severely curtails basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, movement, and to a fair trial. While it has long sought to silence its critics by using short term-detentions, house arrests, travel restrictions, threats, surveillance, criminal prosecutions, politically motivated dismissals from employment, and other forms of harassment, the government's intolerance of dissenting voices intensified considerably in 2003. In March, on the eve of the U.S. invasion of Iraq, police detained scores of political dissidents and others viewed as "counter-revolutionary" in their thinking. By early April, the defendants--who included such prominent figures as Raul Rivero, the poet and journalist, and Hector Palacios, a leader in the pro-democracy movement--had been sentenced to long stays in prison.

Cuba is only a nice place if you ignore massive and widespread violations of human rights, secret police, and a totalitarian government. Moreover, if you had gone outside the government-censored tourist zones you'd see one of the most repressed places in the Western Hemisphere.

Argue about who is right and wrong allyou want but there is one point missing here.

Anyone who shoots at cops or even threatens a cop
is very, very stupid. The only sensible thing to do when the cops show up to arrest you is to let them do their job and keep your mouth shut. Anything else can get you killed.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin

The degree to which it is safe to comply with the demands of civil authorities is proportional to the degree of accountability which the civil authorities are held to. If you had valid reasons to believe that you would be falsely accused and handed over to Syria for interrogation under torture, I certainly hope you wouldn't dismiss the option of violently resisting arrest.

Consider the Gestapo as a baseline example of police without accountability. Think it'll never happen again? Take a look at Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Guatemala, Myanmar, or half a dozen other countries I could name. We're quite lucky here in the United States because the vast majority of police do act justly, but it doesn't have to stay that way forever, and it certainly isn't that way everywhere.

Accountability is based on verifiable proof that authority is being justly exercised, not an assumption that the actions taken by authority are warranted. Require them to prove that what they are doing is correct, every step of the way. If their answers aren't valid, then your choice as a rational individual comes down to the balance of risks between acting to protect yourself or unconditionally surrendering to their power.

"Kazaa and the Sherman Networks people would be better off moving to somewhere like Yemen, China or Cuba, where even though you don't have some rights, I doubt they go busting down doors over copyright."

Oh ya China, good idea, as long as you they did not facilitate the proliferation of information/material of which challenges the "Party".

"Between 1994 and the present, China's rules and regulations on the Internet became progressively more comprehensive, moving from efforts to regulate Internet business to restrictions on news sites and chat rooms. These regulations give the government wide discretion to arrest and punish any form of expression. For example, "topics that damage the reputation of the State" are banned, but an Internet user has no way of knowing what topics might be considered injurious." More here
They already banned google

Yemen sounds good too right?

Too bad they pretty much banned the Internet in Cuba.

"History teaches us that anyone who tries to get in the way of progress either gets a war against them or is bypassed. Or to put it in other terms "nature finds a way"."

You mean like all the wonderful progess we see in China?

The RIAA is dying - just a matter of time.

"The USA was built on some principles of being a new, golden land. It's heading for decline into conservatism and corruption. I think that China and India will be the new superpowers."

I suggest you read The Declaration of Independence

Large scale human rights VIOLATIONS.

Large scale human rights VIOLATIONS.

Fourteen little girls burned to death in the Saudi fire.[1] I couldn't find a reference for the past year, but for the year July 1, 1999, to June 30, 2000, there were sixteen homicides in schools where the victims were children.[2]

So while more kids died in school shootings in the US for the years sampled than little girls burned to death in Saudi Arabia, you have to keep some other factors in mind:
1: Saudi Arabia has a population of roughly 24 million. The US has a population of roughly 290 million. So for the two statistics to be equilivant, there would've had to have been 193 school shootings in one year. As is, the ratio of deaths is much lower in the US.
2: People in the US recognize that school shootings are a problem. We take active steps to counter them, and from all indications those steps are working. The Saudis didn't seem to care that little girls burned to death, there haven't been any major sweeping changes of the Ministry for the Prevention of Vice and Promotion of Virtue.
3: When school kids kill each other with guns, it is a criminal act not sanctioned by the government. When Saudi authorities lock little girls in their school and make them burn to death, it is a criminal act sanctioned by the government.

Thaksin's Potemkin Welcome for APEC

OWJones: "...tens of thousands of blacks -- an ethnic group in which 91% voted for Gore -- were "mistakenly" labeled as felons and removed from the rolls. A lawyer for the company that put the list together explains."

• Obviously you have never lived in a country that kills its OWN citizens. For something closer to your home (assuming USA), check out the Waco atrocities committed by the government, as well as Ruby Ridge. Here is some If you are into films, you can also check out the controversial documentary on it.
• Obviously you haven't heard of the totalitarian regimes in Germany, USSR, and USA's close friends Saudi Arabia and Egypt. A couple of stories on the state of Egypt (USA's 2nd large recipient of military aid)
• Obviously you haven't heard of the damage done to civil rights activists in the 60's by the FBI and the CIA. Laws were actually changed to prevent this sort of thing.
• Obviously you have never been targetted by the police. (I have no proof of this but if you let me track you, I can find out :) )
• Obviously you are not a minority man (particularly black) living in some parts of USA. (Don't know this either. But I can easily verify this if you send your driver's license to me)
• Obviously you haven't heard of the infiltration of the FBI by organized criminals (particularly the Italian mafia in the 60's and 70's).
• Obviously you haven't heard of police fabricating information and jailing people.
• Obviously you haven't heard of the government cooking up bogus charges and jailing people. (Refer to the previous link and do your research)
• Obviously McCarthyism is not part of your collective mind.
• Obviously you haven't heard of John Ashcroft's recent decree to spy on antiwar activists.
• Obviously you believe the legal system represent justice. (I can't prove this to anyone. It is something that you will realize as you grow up and leave the cave that you have been living in--if you actually manage to do that!)
• Obviously you underestimate the power of the goverment.

• Obviously you have never lived in a country that kills its OWN citizens. For something closer to your home (assuming USA), check out the Waco atrocities committed by the government, as well as Ruby Ridge. Here is some If you are into films, you can also check out the controversial documentary on it.
• Obviously you haven't heard of the totalitarian regimes in Germany, USSR, and USA's close friends Saudi Arabia and Egypt. A couple of stories on the state of Egypt (USA's 2nd large recipient of military aid)
• Obviously you haven't heard of the damage done to civil rights activists in the 60's by the FBI and the CIA. Laws were actually changed to prevent this sort of thing.
• Obviously you have never been targetted by the police. (I have no proof of this but if you let me track you, I can find out :) )
• Obviously you are not a minority man (particularly black) living in some parts of USA. (Don't know this either. But I can easily verify this if you send your driver's license to me)
• Obviously you haven't heard of the infiltration of the FBI by organized criminals (particularly the Italian mafia in the 60's and 70's).
• Obviously you haven't heard of police fabricating information and jailing people.
• Obviously you haven't heard of the government cooking up bogus charges and jailing people. (Refer to the previous link and do your research)
• Obviously McCarthyism is not part of your collective mind.
• Obviously you haven't heard of John Ashcroft's recent decree to spy on antiwar activists.
• Obviously you believe the legal system represent justice. (I can't prove this to anyone. It is something that you will realize as you grow up and leave the cave that you have been living in--if you actually manage to do that!)
• Obviously you underestimate the power of the goverment.

• Obviously you have never lived in a country that kills its OWN citizens. For something closer to your home (assuming USA), check out the Waco atrocities committed by the government, as well as Ruby Ridge. Here is some If you are into films, you can also check out the controversial documentary on it.
• Obviously you haven't heard of the totalitarian regimes in Germany, USSR, and USA's close friends Saudi Arabia and Egypt. A couple of stories on the state of Egypt (USA's 2nd large recipient of military aid)
• Obviously you haven't heard of the damage done to civil rights activists in the 60's by the FBI and the CIA. Laws were actually changed to prevent this sort of thing.
• Obviously you have never been targetted by the police. (I have no proof of this but if you let me track you, I can find out :) )
• Obviously you are not a minority man (particularly black) living in some parts of USA. (Don't know this either. But I can easily verify this if you send your driver's license to me)
• Obviously you haven't heard of the infiltration of the FBI by organized criminals (particularly the Italian mafia in the 60's and 70's).
• Obviously you haven't heard of police fabricating information and jailing people.
• Obviously you haven't heard of the government cooking up bogus charges and jailing people. (Refer to the previous link and do your research)
• Obviously McCarthyism is not part of your collective mind.
• Obviously you haven't heard of John Ashcroft's recent decree to spy on antiwar activists.
• Obviously you believe the legal system represent justice. (I can't prove this to anyone. It is something that you will realize as you grow up and leave the cave that you have been living in--if you actually manage to do that!)
• Obviously you underestimate the power of the goverment.

From the article, "Maybe, in the end, it's enough to be aware of what's happening behind the scenes as we enjoy this cornucopia of bargains."

This seems to be a rather apathetic and cynical closing statement. Awareness by itself can't do anything. It is not enough to simply be aware of it if someone is in need of help. I would say that while it's likely impossible to avoid products with hidden costs in the modern world, one thing that anybody can do is help support your favorite non-profit, non-governmental organization that is working on behalf of people in dire need, worldwide. Examples include:
Amnesty International , Human Rights Watch , and Oxfam International .

It's no overstatement to say that if you can afford a twenty-dollar DVD player, you can afford to give twenty dollars to charity. You can donate online, with your credit/debit card, right now. So what is stopping you from helping out?

Starting shortly after the end of the Gulf war in 1991, Marsh Arabs have been singled out for even more direct assault: mass arrests, enforced "disappearances," torture, and execution of political opponents have been accompanied by ecologically catastrophic drainage of the marshlands and the large-scale and systematic forcible transfer of part of the local population.

Hello superyooser.

It's not the Israelies who blow themselves up in buses and kill many innocent children. ...but it is the Israelis who form death squads, torture palestinians and kills civilians in refugee camps.

How do you suggest palestinians should defend themselves? Their land is occupied. They have no army or military capacity that is even a fraction of Israel's. Bear in mind that killing yourself is not an easy choice.

It's not the Israelies who contribute to charities to fund terror groups.

Are you crazy? That would be the United States that is pouring in billions in military aid to Israel.

It's not the Israelies who have a dictatorial government.

The palestinian people have been denied a government for a long time. How do you expect palestinians to organize when Israel denies them that right?

It's not the Israelies who have vowed to wipe their neighbor from the face of the earth.

But the Israelis certainly are in the lead:

________________Israelis____Palestinians
Children Killed _____106____________494
Civilians Killed_____632__________2,317
Assassinations _______1____________297

Bystanders killed
in the course
of Assassination____________________145


It's not the Israelies who are teaching both in schools and mosques their children to hate.

According to a 1977 UNESCO report, Israeli authorities systematically doctored the textbooks on history, geography, and literature used by Palestinian children to eliminate references to Palestine.

So, it should be no surpise that Israelies are at WAR.

It should be no surprise Palestinians are pissed when their country is invaded and occupied!

Woah, woah, woah, woah!

Okay, I didn't support the war on Iraq for many reasons, but to claim that Saddam's not a bad guy is just simply ludicrous revisionist history.
Put down the agitprop and step away from the soapbox.

Saddam Hussein's Baathist Party has done several horrible things that have been well-documented. His regime has a history of torture, oppression, and genocide. The Kurds, the Marsh Arabs, and the Shiites have all suffered greatly at his regime's hands for helping us in the Gulf War and for standing up for their own rights. My mother works with an Iraqi Kurd who fled with her husband to America after her husbands brothers were tortured and killed and had their bodies returned to them in mutilated condition because the two of them were reporters trying to expose the abuses of the regime to the international community. Whole towns of Kurds were killed with chemical weapons for their aid of the UN forces in the Gulf War.

Then you have the draining of Iraq's wetlands as punishment to the Marsh Arabs. An entire ecosystem and economic infrastructure has been utterly destroyed, leaving many of the Marsh Arabs without a means of sustenance and without a home. This is in addition to the usual panorama of torture, kidnapping, and execution that faced many dissidents in Iraq.

Oh, and in case all of this doesn't convince you, how about the senseless, retaliatory destruction of the economic lifeblood of Kuwait that poisoned thousands? You know, the blackening of the skies which was visible from space? Then, there's the man's sweetheart sons who reveal how good of a man he was as a father. How about the horrible life story of a man who was forced to act as a body double for Uday?

I don't think that all necessarily justified us getting involved when we have made a policy of ignoring or supporting many other brutal regimes -- especially when close friends of certain of our administration stand to profit mightily -- but saying that there's no evidence that Saddam's a bad guy is farsical. As to his popularity, Saddam didn't just get 90%+ of the vote. He got 100% of the vote on a ballot where he was the ONLY candidate listed. No candidate gets that kind of support in any healthy democracy, and we are right to question anyone who does.

We went in because he's really bad, okay? Just wave your plastic American flag, citizen, go back to bed. All is well. The monitors are your friends.

That's right, Saddam never did anything wrong.

I bet all those Iraqis he would have gone on to murder are grateful for your attempts to prevent their rescue.

The UN is non-democratic insofar as your country's delegate was not DIRECTLY elected by you, but how many americans voted for Donald Rumsfeld or Colin Powell? (hint - none, they were appointed). UN delegations are similarly appointed by the governments they represent.

Ah, good example, but you are missing a critical point. The Secretaries of State, Defense, whatever, in the US are members of the Executive branch and are subordinates of the President. They are bound by the same series of checks and balances that bind other members of the executive branch.

Similarly, In Parliamentary systems of government, the Prime Minister can just as quickly be recalled with a vote of no confidence and their policies can be overturned.

On the otherhand, the UN seeks to be an autonomous executive and legislative body, whose members could be checked iff the states have these checks in place. In general, I would contend that this simply isn't the case. Further, the idea that you should personally give any weight to a capricious body that sees fit to, with a straight face, elect Libya to the head of the human rights commision is laughable. As long as we're on a roll, why not make North Korea head of the UN/ITU.

In short, your argument is about as valid as saying that because Sweden has a parliament, then they have no right to oppose the EU.

Additionally, who the hell said the UN should have the right to regulate the Internet other than the UN? If they decide they want to have a conference on what I can have for breakfast, they can kiss my ass.

The UN is non-democratic insofar as your country's delegate was not DIRECTLY elected by you, but how many americans voted for Donald Rumsfeld or Colin Powell? (hint - none, they were appointed). UN delegations are similarly appointed by the governments they represent.

Ah, good example, but you are missing a critical point. The Secretaries of State, Defense, whatever, in the US are members of the Executive branch and are subordinates of the President. They are bound by the same series of checks and balances that bind other members of the executive branch.

Similarly, In Parliamentary systems of government, the Prime Minister can just as quickly be recalled with a vote of no confidence and their policies can be overturned.

On the otherhand, the UN seeks to be an autonomous executive and legislative body, whose members could be checked iff the states have these checks in place. In general, I would contend that this simply isn't the case. Further, the idea that you should personally give any weight to a capricious body that sees fit to, with a straight face, elect Libya to the head of the human rights commision is laughable. As long as we're on a roll, why not make North Korea head of the UN/ITU.

In short, your argument is about as valid as saying that because Sweden has a parliament, then they have no right to oppose the EU.

Additionally, who the hell said the UN should have the right to regulate the Internet other than the UN? If they decide they want to have a conference on what I can have for breakfast, they can kiss my ass.

Rapid technological development, large scale persecution of minorities, impunity for perpetrators of mass crimes.

Rapid technological development, large scale persecution of minorities, impunity for perpetrators of mass crimes.

Huang Qi is in a Chinese prison because he offered a blog-type service in which he allowed people to freely speak their opinions and helped them find missing relatives.

Nguyen Khac Toan is in prison for helping people reclaim confiscated property from the government.

Pham Hong Son is imprisoned for translating and redistributing a "What is Democracy" acticle published by the American Embassy in Vietnam.

Le Chi Quang was arrested in Vietnam for intending to send e-mail overseas.

I was at a concert Saturday night where the performer stated, "maybe we can incite the world to democracy by actually practicing it." As an American, I would like to personally thank any of you that take the time to help people in opressive countries. The fact that most of us can post on /. with no worry about repurcussions is a really good thing. We should share it.

In the US Government institutions are a major conduit for spread of AIDS.

with their choice of putting Libya as the Human Rights chair.

Luckily the UN is a flaccid organization with no territory or armies of its own. What would it plan to do? Begin a humanitarian mission to the Web by dropping a bunch of Kenyan and Spanish troops near all the root servers?

Yeah right.

Better still, a lawsuit based on the DMCA will force the court to examine the law itself. The defendants will face a US$500,000 fine and (more importantly) five years in the pokey. With the paper trail so clearly documented (server logs, et cetera), the best legal manuever would be to argue that the DMCA itself is invalid/unconstitutional. We win either way.

Someone get spamhaus on the phone, I think we've got something here.

Despite recent advances in economic freedoms, China is still a dangerous totalitarian regime. In the west, we rail against the abuses of the State, and rightly so, but the abuses of the west are nothing compared to China.

To say "Go China" is to deny the real and substantial differences between liberal democracies and repressive regimes. I can say that W is a dummy with impunity in the US. Chinese citizens can't do likewise. These freedoms make forums like slashdot possible, and are directly responsible for the wealth and privilege that I and many many others in western democracies enjoy.

I hope that China will join the community of nations that protects the rights of the individual. Maybe the power they now have will help them, and the rest of us, fulfill the promise of the American Declaration of Independence. In the meantime, don't make the deadly and dangerous mistake of confusing interesting technology with "good." Linux and spaceships can be used for good and evil.

I believe that one of the reasons that labour is significantly cheaper in India is because the socioeconomic system is vastly different. India has government sanctioned bonded child workers. And whenever you can introduce virtual slaves into an economy, you can dramatically drive down the price of everything else.

Bonded child labour? Slaves? In India?

Yes:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1999/11/22/60II/mai n71386.shtml

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1996/India3.htm

http://www.anti-slavery.org/global/india/

The argument that we should be more efficient, smarter, better, more competitive against our foreign counterparts -- that's just a red herring until more fundamental human rights issues are addressed.

I'll consider outsourcing to another country economically fair and ethically legitimate when that country meets some minimum (I admit this to be somewhat fuzzy) world standard of human rights.

> Remember, these are the same guys who ran kids
> over with tanks in Tiennamin square.

Chinese are real monsters. They should better behave like the US who are imprisoning 13 year old children at Guantanamo. Without access to a lawyer. Without impeachment. Without a time table. Because those children are "terrorists". And remember that the US is a real democracy respecting international law. Yeah.

Hmph. At the risk of sounding like a leftie:

All very Orwellian and Big Brother, the whole experiment was brought to an end by the CIA sponsored coup d'etat on the September 11th, 1973.

Why is this "Orwellian and Big Brother[ish]"? You seem to forget that the "CIA sponsored coup" was actually a pretty bloody affair itself... More than 3000 people "disappeared" (tortured and fed to the fishes), some because they were just suspected of left-of-center sypathies.

But don't take my word for it, read the following:
Amnesty International 1, Amnesty International 2, Amnesty International 3, Human Rights Watch, and even this week's Economist, etc... I could go on, but you get my drift.

While I initially found the article linked to be interesting (and appalling), I grew uncomfortable with what appeared to be a racist bent to the editorializing in the article.

A Google search turns up the fact that Jared Taylor is considered "America's most dangerous racist." The rest of the American Renaissance site is full of erudite but clearly racist commentary.

Yes, prison rape is appalling, but a better link for reference on the topic is this one for the original book on the subject, rather than a racist's view of the material.

I do the original poster was quite funny, but I can understand your concern. Check this report from Human Rights Watch. It's pretty scary.

Oh, your system is great at nutrition and has no problem with hunger, women are safe, and causes no health problems.

because their "goverments" are stupid and evil

Hm, yes, we should bring these international criminals to justice. Oh, wait...

there's a plank in your eye.

"References please. The two US citizens at Guantanamo Bay were released, and the Taliban have been granted POW status there. "

Ok you started out your post by lying so I probably shouldn't even respond but what the hell.

Fist of all nobody in Guantanamo bay is granted POW status. Rumsfeld argued vehemently not to let that happen because it would grant the prisoners rights under the geneva convention. See Human rights watch for a reference. While you are there also read up on how some have been transfered to other countries so that they could be tortured. There have also been reporting of beating and medical experimentation done on prisoners under the control of the US govt.

Also Jose Padilla who is an American citizen has been held without charges since June 9, 2002. No charges, no lawyers. John Ashcroft told Diane Sawyer on an interview broadcast on TV that he did not know the whereabouts of Jose Padilla and that he was in the hands of the military. Imagine that. Nobody knows where this guy is or what happened to him, not even the attorney general of the united states.

"The other "detainees" are a different story, they are not citizens and have in large measure been deported."

Lying again. There are currently over 600 prisoners in guantanamo bay alone. Who knows how many there are overseas and in the mainland us.

"Are you an immigrant violating your conditions for stay? Yes then you can be worried about detention. Otherwise relax."

As I said I am a citizen. The time to round up people like me is not here yet. You know the old saying. First, they came for the political opposition, but I was not political, and I did not object. Then, they came for the gypsies and homosexuals, but I was neither of these, and I did not object. Then, they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, and I did not object. One day, they came for me, and there was no one left to object..

"did Ann say "all swarthy people should be locked up?" Where?"

Here is the actual quote

"Congress could pass a law tomorrow requiring that all aliens from Arabic countries leave....We should require passports to fly domestically. Passports can be forged, but they can also be checked with the home country in case of any suspicious-looking swarthy males." Notice that zeroes in on skin color exclusively.

"Even simple things like accusing me of saying I don't know who David Horowitz is."

You said you didn't know who he was not me. I simply believed you when you told me that.

"You need a real break and re-evaluation before you turn into one of those monsters (if it hasn't happened already)."

You keep bringing up hitler as if that absolves the right wing of anything. It's a straw man and I am not going to fall for it. As I said before I will not simply lay down and die. I don't believe in turning the other cheek (after all I am not a christian). I believe that it's a dog eat dog and right now the republicans are eating the democrats. You are either a predator, a prey, or a pet; those are the only three options. I will not become prey or a pet. Sorry.

"Like I said I won't join in your crusade becuase I don't have faith in you, or your reasons."

I never asked you to. I never expected you to.

"It seems inconsevable to you that another rational, well versed intelligent person does not see the forming police state around you."

Why do you think I am the only person who thinks the US is turning into a police state? I assure you that there are millions of people who share my belief just

"References please. The two US citizens at Guantanamo Bay were released, and the Taliban have been granted POW status there. "

Ok you started out your post by lying so I probably shouldn't even respond but what the hell.

Fist of all nobody in Guantanamo bay is granted POW status. Rumsfeld argued vehemently not to let that happen because it would grant the prisoners rights under the geneva convention. See Human rights watch for a reference. While you are there also read up on how some have been transfered to other countries so that they could be tortured. There have also been reporting of beating and medical experimentation done on prisoners under the control of the US govt.

Also Jose Padilla who is an American citizen has been held without charges since June 9, 2002. No charges, no lawyers. John Ashcroft told Diane Sawyer on an interview broadcast on TV that he did not know the whereabouts of Jose Padilla and that he was in the hands of the military. Imagine that. Nobody knows where this guy is or what happened to him, not even the attorney general of the united states.

"The other "detainees" are a different story, they are not citizens and have in large measure been deported."

Lying again. There are currently over 600 prisoners in guantanamo bay alone. Who knows how many there are overseas and in the mainland us.

"Are you an immigrant violating your conditions for stay? Yes then you can be worried about detention. Otherwise relax."

As I said I am a citizen. The time to round up people like me is not here yet. You know the old saying. First, they came for the political opposition, but I was not political, and I did not object. Then, they came for the gypsies and homosexuals, but I was neither of these, and I did not object. Then, they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, and I did not object. One day, they came for me, and there was no one left to object..

"did Ann say "all swarthy people should be locked up?" Where?"

Here is the actual quote

"Congress could pass a law tomorrow requiring that all aliens from Arabic countries leave....We should require passports to fly domestically. Passports can be forged, but they can also be checked with the home country in case of any suspicious-looking swarthy males." Notice that zeroes in on skin color exclusively.

"Even simple things like accusing me of saying I don't know who David Horowitz is."

You said you didn't know who he was not me. I simply believed you when you told me that.

"You need a real break and re-evaluation before you turn into one of those monsters (if it hasn't happened already)."

You keep bringing up hitler as if that absolves the right wing of anything. It's a straw man and I am not going to fall for it. As I said before I will not simply lay down and die. I don't believe in turning the other cheek (after all I am not a christian). I believe that it's a dog eat dog and right now the republicans are eating the democrats. You are either a predator, a prey, or a pet; those are the only three options. I will not become prey or a pet. Sorry.

"Like I said I won't join in your crusade becuase I don't have faith in you, or your reasons."

I never asked you to. I never expected you to.

"It seems inconsevable to you that another rational, well versed intelligent person does not see the forming police state around you."

Why do you think I am the only person who thinks the US is turning into a police state? I assure you that there are millions of people who share my belief just

If your country supports terrorists or invades a neighboring country without just cause, then you bet your ass you should attempt violent revolution

OK, the US has (in the last few years) invaded Granada, Panama and Iraq (of course, other countries too: but in those cases I believe they could claim legitimate international support). You will claim that these invasions were with just cause of course. But who is to judge what is just cause other than the body setup to arbitrate such matters after the mayhem of WWII? Have you taken up arms against your government yet?

Ansar al Islam

I am familiar with the organisation. Please use some objective sources before linking them with one group or another. To quote part of a Human Rights Watch Press Release

Human Rights Watch has not investigated the alleged links between the Iraqi government and Ansar al-Islam, and is not aware of any convincing evidence supporting this contention. On the other hand, the location of the group's bases very close to the Iranian border, taken together with credible reports of the return of some Ansar al-Islam fighters to Iraqi Kurdistan through Iran, suggest that these fighters have received at least limited support from some Iranian sources

The fact is that Ansar al Islam, in common with Al Qaeda itself, is a highly unlikey ally of a secular dictatorship such as the ex Iraqi government. The attempt to convince people that such links exist is a perfect illustration of the kind of misinformation with which the US has tried to justify its invasion of Iraq.

It was not dealt with by the UN ... has no army

The whole point of the UN is that it provides for unified action by its member countries when there is a consensus that such action is necessary. After the invasion of Kuwait, the UN Security Council unanimously agreed that a military response was needed. Many countries, including Syria, participated. Yes, the US provided the most important component as befits the world's military superpower. But this was supported by the world community as a whole

Iraq failed to live up to its commitments to the UN following the 1991 cease fire

It is up to the UN to judge whether Iraq was in breach of agreements made with the UN.

No lies

You should get together with the ex Iraqi information minister.

The whole of the US case for invading Iraq was based on a still active and extensive WMD program combined with Iraqi support for radical Islamic terrorism. Please quote which parts of this case were true: the use of chemical weapons back in the 1980s when Iraq was a US ally does not qualify.

"international law" is a myth

There are many forms of international law. What I was mostly referring to here was the agreements that the US entered into under the UN charter. This clearly lays out when use of military force against another nation is allowed: to briefly paraphrase, (i) self defense, or (ii) when authorised by the Security Council.

There are accusations that Chinese prisons produce products are often sold in foreign countries with the profits going to the PRC government.

I hear them most often from non-profit organizations, like Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International.

most prisoners in Chinese prisons are there for what are generally regarded as crimes in the West.

You mean, if I'd say loudly in some western country that Tibet has interesting culture or that Christianity is actually not that bad for a religion, I could get sent to a labor camp somewhere near Paris or San Francisco? Good to know.

"And is the US (or any other country, for that matter) supposed to take the same attitude towards each government for eternity, no matter what takes place?"

You mean like Israel? There is a certain amount of concern over using helicopter gunships in police actions, but I'm sure that someone will have a quiet word _any day now_.

I'm by no means naive enough to consider the global political situation as either transparent or fixed, but there are huge numbers of people that do. The minority with a grudge will say to themselves that 'block x' of the world population is evil and should be destroyed by whatever means necessary.

The cute thing is that George Bush firmly aligned himself with the mentality of the west banks settlers and the Jakarta suicide bombers by falling into the naive judgement of 'good' and 'evil' according to his moral structure and belief system. So the wheel keeps turning until someone says, 'Hey, maybe if we stopped supplying the guns to developing nations and controlled the global trade in arms, perhaps, just perhaps, people might stop killing each other on a grand scale.' Just to give you some perspective, US defence spending is around 40% of the _global_ amount spent on 'defence'.

"9/11 and related events are quite enough to make one reconsider their perspective on things..."

Only if you live in a nation that had the luxury of ignoring terrorism or relabelling them 'freedom fighters'. The rest of the world has had to deal with numerous organisations planting bombs on a daily basis since the 1900s, so don't think that the US is anything special simply because you erect a couple of massive targets.

While someone might brand this post 'Anti-American', it's actually from someone who actually likes Americans. They have a proactive attitude that's only blighted by a certain degree of arrogance and a certain uneasyness that they think the rest of the world should be just like America with a different accent.

The major problem is not that Mike Hawash shouldn't be charged with intent, but the means with which he was charged and the relative dichotomy between the sentencing of a man that 'intended' to cause the US harm and the complete ignoring of Kenneth Lay's damage to the US. If you're going to bring up 9/11, consider the number of victims produced by Enron.

Quoted from the Geneva Convention

Article 5

The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation.

Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

We could always argue what a "Competent tribunal" is, but I'm pretty shure that any tribunal consisting only of people only from the US Military or from a US court would be outside the ramification of the Geneva Convention as such a tribunal would violate the Conventions on the impartial point.

So far USA has ignored all this and still claims that the prisoners at GB are "unlawful combatants".
Humans Right Watch wrote a nice letter to Condoleezza Rice ripping apart her arguments that she still continues to spread on various press conferences.

You're not alone...

The electoral college elected him president, just like any other president. Running out the clock on a recount of a popular vote is not electing, it's a moot point.

I don't believe you have to agree with the president to be a patriot. But I do believe that calling the president a dictator and therefore implying that the whole checks-and-balances system of this constitutional republic is somehow horribly broken, and that jack-booted thugs will be dragging dissenters off to the Gulag any day now, disqualifies you as a patriot. It reflects a complete disregard for the facts (and for the integrity and reputation of our Constitution) in favor of partisan name-calling.

I think any well-informed person is entitled to an opinion on the oppression of Iran. There is reliable information all over the internet and the news. I don't think that oppression is OK just because it's a "cultural difference", do you?

The Homeland Security system does seem to be heading toward the sort of exceedingly low-wage system of "employment" so desired by the folks who brought us H-1B -- and the felonization of P2P file systems is exactly in line with the rest of the war of terror on the population committed routinely by the folks who call the tunes.

Even slaves get food, shelter, clothing and medical care -- which is more than a lot of tech workers are getting these days.

Someone will figure out that slavery is a superior system to the current con-game and also figure out a way to use the military against their own populations to enforce it. I think its already started in privatized prisons and their prisoner-labor programs and the exploding rate of incarceration in the Unted States -- however they really do have to figure out what to do about the prisoner rape problem before they can be considered good massah's by computer nerds who will then work not for money but for privileges in the system.

In fact, there is a law which authorizes to use military force to free any US citizen held by the court in The Haag. Thus it is a law which authorizes to inavde the Netherlands would Bush really be held accountable.

British?

While not defending the record of the US military, maybe you should take your own advice.