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The Hidden Costs of Bargain Electronics
Fill Dirt writes "Mike Langberg of Knight-Ridder newspapers wrote an interesting article on the the hidden costs of bargain priced consumer electronics. I saw it in the Seattle Times business section with the title Can't lose with bargain DVD player, but low cost carries price ."
Seems to me the biggest thing is the pollution generated by these bargain electronics. If it's dirt cheap, then if it dies, you throw it away, you buy more dirt cheap.
Not so good for our environment.
Can you ping me now? Gooood! | Manhappenin.Net - Things to do
Did you think you were getting a bargain? Sheesh.
All DVD players are now made in China, so there's no "Made in the U.S.A." option.
This must be the same way a store like "Steve and Barry's" can sell all new clothes and the like for under $13(US). I never knew how it all worked, however..
I have seen the real hidden costs of bargin equipment!
:)
As many great deals that I have found in fatwallet forums, I'll be damned that it seems I get more and more broke everytime I visit there...
Of course, whenever my bookoo of rebate money rolls in, I'll be doing much better.
Damn you fatwallet!
AC
It all goes to China, where it's disassembled by teens in makeshift tents looking for a quick way to earn a buck (and perhaps die because of the dangerous toxins in CRT screens.)
Life is just grand, isn't it?
Apex DVD players are junk... and so are Cyberhome, for that matter.
I sell them at a national department store, and roughly 80% of them sold come back defective... usually the drive door breaks, or it eats a dvd, or the components come loose in the back.
Not worth it. Spend 50 bucks and get a decent one.
Josh
hookers and grits.
But can I use such a $20-40 DVD player with a PC? Does it have any kind of such output or can I hack it to make it an IDE device?
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
you can buy american, let the MPAA get their membership fee, and fund terrorism.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
(from the article) " If we all stopped buying DVD players tomorrow, conditions in China would probably get worse rather than better." And this folks, is where the real issues can be glimpsed.
"where words meet intent, lies rhetoric's lament"
The only thing which will make a difference is legislation penalising companies which deal with off-shore producers who flout human rights.
Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Gates M'dna wgah'nagl fhtagn.
...and drives jobs to countries with lower labor costs. It has happened with all manufacturing. Now it is happening with software too, and we have ourselves to thank. If we aren't taking advantage of low prices at Walmart, we are taking advantage of free software.
"Indeed, the famous brand names also make their DVD players in China, often on the same contract assembly lines as the no-names."
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
was a strange mix of negative comments -- horrific near-slave working conditions in China, coupled with... no S-video output? Cause if it had the S-video connection, I'd be in there!
Seriously, though, as we insist on human rights (never mind fair wages and conditions)as the basis for the entire world, not just our citizens (and not just out mid/upper classes), prices will go up. That's as it should be. We have arrived at a time of unprecedented purchasing power, and have done so at the cost of people we don't have to see or hear on a daily basis. No labour rallies in the streets or our factories, and no one (including my country, Canada) seems willing to cut ties with a powerful trade nation such as China over a little thing like human rights. As long as they're not crushing people with tanks, of course. That upsets the missus.
Yes, working conditions in China probably can be poor, even hazardous. But if the fashion industry is any indication, many of the more expensive items are made under similarly bad conditions. With electronics, often, the high price and low price items are just minor variations on the same design anyway.
And what is the alternative? Do you think the Chinese that work in those shops are going to be any happier if you don't buy their products and they are out of a job? If they had an alternative, they'd probably take it.
Europe and the US went through periods of horrendous exploitation and abysmal working conditions before workers demanded, and got, improvements. China will probably follow the same path if given a chance.
Sometimes you get what you pay for, but you have to pay attention.
One thing the article doesn't seem to mention is that it is usually the no-name less expensive DVD players that allow you to play other region DVDs.
Is there a middle ground where you can get a cheaper DVD player that plays foreign DVDs, doesn't allow blocking of skipping commercials that some DVDs force you to watch, and is made with "fair-trade" labor practices?
Being able to play PAL formats as well as divx cdrs would be nice too.
Oh, and if you buy a cheap DVD player, or whatever, and it doesn't work then take it back.
Nobody died when Nixon lied.
I'm meeting you half way you stupid hippies!
Those "hidden" costs (strange, it says made in china on it) exist on most of the electronic appliances we buy. Why should we start worrying now? Even if it had that "made in USA" sticker on it, u might still miss the little disclaimer that says "with parts from -insert poor countrie's name here-. So, even that's not certain.
I'm glad that digital stuff can reproduce media without any loss in quality due to hardware (compared to magnetic mediums).
I would go even as far as encouraging China's non proprietary video format which can be played on royalty-free hardware thus lowering the price even more.
Besides, all the big brand names in digital devices are Japanese. Isn't this outsourcing too?
It's quite normal actually.
All of B&O's stuff is Phillips parts inside, I believe.
Ultimately, the only way to make sure you know where your stuff is made is to make it yourself.
Eat the rich.
I know we're talking about electronics here, which are a world apart from personal computers, but I just couldn't help but let my imagination run with this one.
Some crazy people might be tempted to bring this wild line of reasoning into discussions about the differences between Wintel and Apple hardware. Gosh, I hope that never happens.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
"But there are hidden costs. Horrific working conditions on assembly lines in China, heightened trade tensions with Asian nations and Wal-Mart store clerks paid so little they qualify for food stamps, are partially related to relentless pressure to sell popular products at eye-popping low prices" Ahh.. so basically if a person at Walmart is WILLING to work for less money than another, he really has no right to do so b/c the author is not comfortable with that person's wage. This isn't slavery/forced labor, it's capitalism.
Shit is so cheap these days, I actually feel bad when I shop now. I'd rather pay a lot more for niceties like DVD players knowing that they weren't built by slave labor. Workers in China are treated like shit, but what the hell do you do? Every damn thing you see is made there these days...
Below is a response I recieved from the CEO of an american toy company I contacted after I read about the conditions of a factory used by them in China. It reeks of bullshit, but what can you say in response?:
Dear Mr. XXXXX:
We were very concerned to read your e-mail regarding some misinformation you
may have received regarding our manufacturing practices.
We are a global provider of game and toy brands for children, and the
conditions under which our products are manufactured are a matter of serious
and long-term concern to XXXX. We are committed to ensuring that our
products are manufactured under safe, humane and non-exploitative
conditions.
In fact, as early as 1993, XXXX established its Global Business Ethics
Principles ("Code of Conduct"). Participation in the XXXX program is
mandatory for all of our suppliers and vendors. Among many important areas,
the Code of Conduct governs:
* child labor --no person younger than 15 or younger than the age for
completing compulsory education in the country of manufacture (where such
age is higher than fifteen) may be employed to produce XXXX products -- In
China the minimum school age is 16;
* working hours and compensation --employers must comply with all
applicable wage and hour laws or, if prevailing industry wage standards are
higher, then employers must comply with or exceed these standards --In
China, minimum wages are set by province or by city, which may cause some
confusion, when reported by those unfamiliar with the process.
* forced, prison, or indentured labor --any person employed to produce
XXXX products must be voluntarily employed, except that rehabilitative
programs which provide for employment may be assessed by XXXX on a case by
case basis;
* health and safety --employers must operate facilities in a healthy
and safe manner, including, but not limited to, providing fire prevention,
first aid, and hazardous waste disposal;
* abuse and discrimination --employers must treat employees with
dignity and respect and shall not subject employees to abuse, cruel or
unusual disciplinary practice, or discrimination;
* freedom of association --employees have the right to choose (or not)
to affiliate with legally sanctioned organizations without unlawful
interference; and
* monitoring by XXXX --XXXX has the right to conduct periodic
on-site visits of working and living conditions, audit the production
records and practices of the employers, and require employers to promptly
address compliance issues or face termination by XXXX. Following initial
audits to approve use of a factory, XXXX conducts unannounced follow-up
audits.
As indicated above, XXXX's Code of Conduct clearly sets forth the
standards under which vendors may manufacture XXXX products, with auditing
and monitoring rights for XXXX. All factories located in the Far East
manufacturing XXXX products are audited by XXXX and by independent firms
hired by XXXX
Over the years, XXXX has successfully worked with its manufacturers to
correct any unacceptable practices discovered during the course of our
audits. New factories must correct any audit findings before they are given
any XXXX orders, and existing vendors must correct any findings within a
specified time frame depending upon the severity of the issue. Although
serious violations or failures to make corrections are rarely experienced,
XXXX has in fact terminated vendors for failure to comply.
XXXX has also been a leader in the worldwide toy industry as a member of
the Toy Industry Association, Inc. ("TIA") and
Your hybrid is not saving the environment. Its purpose is to make you feel good about buying something.
...is to work in a rice paddy, and make under $1 per day.
Later, there will be a lack of workers for the traditional job market and hence a push upwards in salary.
At least, that is Krugman's position (well known economist on the left side of US' politics). Google for Krugman and swetshops if you want to see discussion on the subject.
Karma: Excellent (My Karma? I wish...:-( )
There's something to be said for buying a name-brand DVD player at a respectably high price...I mean a good model over or around $100.
While you could buy one of these cheaper DVD players, considering that it has fewer features anyway than the higher-end, and more expensive models, when it won't last long, why would you?
It reminds me of the Mac vs. PC cost debate, because Macs need less overall maintenance and therefore end up being the same cost or cheaper than competing PCs.....
So I say, go for a higher-end model from a name brand manufacturer like Sony, Philips, etc. and have something that you can enjoy for years(with much better support from the company and industry), instead of something that will work for a while and eventually break down after 6-12 months because of bad parts....that's not a nice thing to have happen.
Maybe the average joe is fine getting their electronics at WalMart or Kmart or S-Mart or whatever... but some folks (like me) still want to go somewhere there are authorities.
I mean, walk into a Future Shop and ask the minimum wage sales clerk what the difference between two $100 DVD players are and he'll spend 5 minutes studying the boxes, shrug and say "Uh. This one's better." "why?" "uh... it costs more?" or at best just read the features off the box.
I'd rather go into a "mom and pop" or specialty store. Here in Toronto, we have places like Bay-Bloor radio (or in Hamilton, East Hamilton Radio). A little more expensive perhaps, but they really know their stuff - these guys read the manuals on their lunch breaks. And they'll ask you what brand and model your TV is and if you give them a figure, explain what model is the best bang for your buck... or if you'd be willing to spend the extra $50 you could get [brand X] and why its good. Oh, you only have [brand Q] stereo? Well perhaps not this, but this other model since your stereo can't make use of [feature F]
These days things move so fast that by the time you discover that you've bought a cheap piece of crap and noticed that its already getting flakey, the next generation of hardware is on the shelves and its time to buy a whole nuther one anyway.
And if I were working in tech retail, that would be the moment that I would loudly go "*Ka-Ching!*" and make a downward yanking motion with my right fist.
"Sorry, I can't see you over there, I have huge great dollar signs in my eyes".
$-)
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
What a lightweight piece. It tells us to beware of these hidden costs, with no facts to back that warning up. Then concludes by saying if we did pay attention to these hidden costs, conditions in China would get worse. Huh?
If they could afford to pay the workers more, they'd probably move production up the chain to Singapore or Korea or Mexico or Canada or the US or Japan, depending on just how high those wages would be. China is probably not going to get those jobs unless the labor is as cheap as absolutely possible.
Also not mentioned is that poor people (not dirt poor) around the world are able to afford TVs and DVD players because of cheap labor. Paying $250 for a DVD player doesn't affect me and my middle class paycheck very much. It would have a huge impact on the working poor in richer countries and the middle class in other countries.
BTW, I was sure that the US Customs Service would certainly block any inbound shipments that hadn't paid their ransom to the DVD Forum. How do these "untaxed" units sneak through?
It's the children's blood in the electronics that seals the deal for me, personally.
Snooge!
The average consumer doesnt care they just want unit that plays dvds. and as far as the cheapies breaking in a couple years at there price pick it up throw it away and get another one. I love my Apex works great plays all region dvds and best of all if it breaks im I can get another one for sub 50 bucks.
technology will drive down labor costs. this goes back to david ricardo. if you buy the labor theory of value (ricardo and marx agreed here), fine. but that only works in labor intensive, agricultural economies. look at it this way: one, the number of people who can enjoy movies is significantly higher. two, the lower cost frees up capital for other areas. while they make low cost, low margin goods, we manufacture semiconductor chips and other high cost goods. three, with a greater distribution market for movies, there is more demand for those in the movie making business. this creates new job sectors and destroys old ones. market forces. nice? not really. smith, hume, and even ricardo argued trade was only to be bewtween equals. they would argue for free trade, but never in a situation where the standards of living were so remarkably dfferent, such as us and china. (on this i can kind of agree)
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
The country of origin has little to do with it. Do you honestly believe the quality of goods would improve if they were made in the USA as opposed in China? no. The only thing you are going to see if they're made in the USA is a higher price tag because of the higher min wages.
If you want good qaulity products, look at the brand, reviews, other peoples experiences etc.
The only thing the country of origin tells you is how much of the products manufacturing price went into wages.
Taxes started the revolutionary war; its your duty as an American to screw the government out of every tax dollar you can.
Terrorism is just superfluous justification for that.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
So what if they're cheap? If you want to bitch about what amounts to people choosing the cheaper product because it's cheaper, bitch about capitalism.
Of course there's a small amount of irony that it's being 'caused' by China.
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
With DVD players the cheaper the player, the more likely to play DVD-R, DVD+RW, MP3s, MPGs - all region free.
Plus, if it breaks outside warranty, you replace it with another cheap player, probably Blu-Ray - all for less than the cost of one 'brand name' player.
And don't get me started on Sony's quality.
Face it, the use of the word brand should give you a clue - most of the money you are paying is going to finance expensive adverts and marketing agencies - not engineering.
Philips, which along with Sony and Pioneer has hundreds of patents covering all aspects of the DVD system, is administrating the granting of licences and the collection of royalties, which are then shared equally between the three manufacturers.
The Dutch electronics giant has set up a dedicated website -- www.licensing.philips.com -- which features a list of licensed manufacturers from its licensee database. Philips maintains the website is kept up-to-date with the latest licensing information.
A leading importer of DVD players, who asked not to be named, told ERT Weekly: "This is big news. We have found most low-cost DVD players do not hold the necessary licences.
A Philips spokesman said: "There are a number of manufacturers that don't have the necessary licences.
IIRC but cost of a licence is around $25.
But there are hidden costs. Horrific working conditions on assembly lines in China...
And what makes slashdot so cheap are those barrels of trained elephants that make the homepages....
Choose any two.
Fry's stocks the loss leaders throughout the day. It pays to ask a clerk if there are more in the back (using the tone of voice that you KNOW there are more). Last week they had 250gb WD drives on sale for $149 after rebate ($219 OTD). Of course the shelf was empty when I got there. I asked the clerk and hung out 20 minutes, until he brought out four more from the back (spying the screen, I saw they had 140 units on hand).
After burn-in (do NOT cut out the UPC for rebate until after burn in) I realized I had no way to back up a drive this size. So two days later I went back and got another, using the above process.
I think you're absolutely right that we shouldn't have to compete with that, though I'm using the word "shouldn't" a little differently.
I think the real world for most of us in the west involves moral choices versus -- of all things -- convenience, and petty cost (I mean, we're talking about DVDs, here. There should be no competition, because people fortunate enough to be purchasing luxury items should be able to look beyond their own comfort to someone else's suffering and count that into their cost, take one look at this "deal" and say: no way.
Then again, for years GE has made parts for nuclear warheads, and I don't see the anti-war crowd buying less of their stuff. Actually, I shouldn't say that. Some might take it as a positive endorsement.
Complaints of low wages usually come from higher-paid workers in modern countries. In Cambodia, for example, those well-publicized Nike sweat house jobs are highly sought after by Cambodians looking for work. But US workers wouldn't want to work there, no doubt. I know I wouldn't. How can you compete against cheap labor? Quality. What if quality difference is minor? Legislation!
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
So the guy gives a small sum up of how capitalism works and then some vague unsubstantiated arguments that "oh well it'd just get worse" if we didn't buy cheap shit and then that's that.
I don't buy a $30 dvd player, or $119 25 inch tv or a $299 computer expecting quality, I buy it because it's cheap. My 3 year old has a $39 AMW DVD player in his room, it plays dvd's on the 8 year old 27 inch tv I put in there (well 8 years ago I bought it used from a pawn shop, no clue how old it really is) and well, that's about it, if he slides a piece of cheese in there I'm not gonna get pissed about it and he doesn't need optical outputs or S Video or composite or progressive scan or none of that jazz, he wants to see Nemo in bright orange and Spongbob in yellow and he's happy as a clam. Down in the living room it's a Panasonic progressive scan with all the trimmings on a 57" Hitachi wide screem, neither of which are the cheapest (or most expensive) in their class.
My wife's car is a nice mini van with high safety ratings leather seats, blah blah blah. She does a lot of running around and my kid is in there a lot as well, safety is a huge issue and I want them safe in a newish car that isn't likely to break down. My car is a 1997 Geo Tracker beer can on wheels, I put about 3K miles on it per year, I don't NEED a good car, I need a pos I can run to Staples in when I need some blank DVD's. If it breaks down I park it on the side of the road and call my wife on my cell to come get me.
Do I or you need to be told that "cheap stuff tends to be cheap" and furthermore do I need to be told that "working conditions in China aren't good" and that "WalMart doesn't pay employees much"? Sheesh man use a little common sense, this is why #1 I only buy the cheap shit when I have a reason for buying it (as in letting a 3 year old watch DVD's in his room) #2 I am glad I don't live in China, and #3 I'm glad I don't work at WalMart.
Still the part about the name brands and the off brands going down the same assembly line surprised me, oh wait, no it didn't, how many rebadged Lite-On CD's and BTC's marked as Creative or other "big name" brand does one need to see to realize it's often the same cheap shit under the hood?
--- www.f-theocean.com
Or just look on the web and let somebody else do the finding out for you. =)
A lot of the time the look of the player and the remote are the same, buttons are in the same spot etc, . You can tell what rebadged/unbadged model you have just by looking at it.
You are right, you get what you pay for---Unless you buy a Dell/Gateway or something.
If you make an educated purchase list based upon several of the great HW sites out there, wou can have a killer machine for $600, using all name-brand, respectable hardware that will last for years.
Modern hardware (usually) just works.
Or you can get that $1000>$3500 Dell/Gateway, which will be full of the lowest common denominator, bottom of the barrel hardware, even if you get the topline machine.
You will not find a std retail MB in these machines, no Abit, Asus--- You will get a "custom" MB made for Dell in one of those sweatshops, and pay 2-3x more for low performing junk most likely.
If you are lucky, you'll be able to swap it out and at least reuse the $20 case, and maybe the power supply.
More $$ != more quality, just sometimes.
Consumer electronics is a LITTLE better, but only to a point.
From the article:
no assembly-line workers in China able to enter that country's growing middle class
Yes, the companies hiring these people are really holding them back. Just imagine if they couldn't find a job how quickly they could join the growing middle class!
Please, give me a break. The economy in China is completely different than what this 'journalist' is used to. The number of people living here just boggles the mind. I would say that over 90% of China's problems can be traced back to the fact that it's population is FAR too high. Too many people, not enough schools. Too many people, not enough jobs. Too many people, not enough land. If the workers had something past a middle school education, then yah, maybe they could enter the so called middle class. But they don't. Usually the workers are glad they have a job at all. If they don't want the job there's plenty of other people who would be glad to take their place.
Even though their wage is well below the poverty line in the west, they usually have an average salary for the area they're living in. For instance, at the kindergaten I'm working at now the Chinese teachers get around $100-120 USD / month. The cleaning staff gets perhaps around $70-80, I forget exactly. And these are considered good wages for the job they are doing. Hell, I don't think there's a single person at the school who doesn't have a mobile (cell) phone! And remember this is in a large metropolitan Chinese city, not out in the country where most of the manufacturing plants are. The cost of living is even lower where most of the plants are.
Do not anger the worm.
Yes, I didn't invert the title-- it's practically impossible to get away from DVD drives nowadays. They're almost standard on new computers-- and really only a $20-$30 upgrade if you build your own or customize an existing setup, so most people who've bought computers within the last year or so has one. PS2s and XBox have capabilities to play DVDs, so if you're a gamer you probably have another player. Not to mention the fact that some TVs have them built-in (like the old TV/VCR combos, which are surprisingly popular of late). The odds are good, then, that any given American household has a DVD player of some sort.
This raises an interesting point-- it's no wonder manufacturers are dropping the prices on their players to next to nothing; the market is saturated and people aren't likely to shell out $60+ on something "they already have".
I did, in all fairness, pick up a DVD player (as opposed to my PS2 etc.) in May of last year, but only because it was a feature of the 5.1 stereo "receiver" (actually a bookshelf changer-type system) that was on clearance anyway ($200). If the system had been full-priced (about $400) I would have said "screw it" and gone with the $250, 5.1, non-DVD-playing system sitting next to it. Both were by Sony, and I think the DVD system is no longer being produced. The point is that with all the el-cheapo DVD players floating around, I still went with a name-brand because it was "included" with the other item I wanted.
"Why Subscribe?" Good question...
A 555 timer chip is not a quality problem. It is a relatively old but very common device - it is good example of "tried and true". They have been in production for decades, and compared to more complicated chips are extremely reliable and rugged.
You are also increasingly unlikely to find such a device in a DVD player or in other modern consumer electronics. Complex modern consumer equipment tends to revolve around either a CPU/microcontroller or other highly integrated digital electronics, combined with the minimum amount of analog circuitry required to interact with the real world. The kind of functions a 555 timer might have performed (one shot timing or oscillation) are dealt with in the digital domain, and this functionality is developed as software. Using a 555 is the expensive way, not the cheap way, as hardware is expensive compared to the cost of software, which approaches zero for sufficiently large production runs.
There are quality factors in consumer electronics - it's not all the same - but it's not so simple as the use of a single device. Factors include:
With increasingly high levels of integration, more of the product is dependant on software (either in a CPU or as a way of describing custom silicon). Quality depends extremely heavily on design. Now, much of the complicated design isn't even performed by a hardware manufacturer. For example, take a look at the many usb key type MP3 players on the market. Notice how they're all almost identical in specifications? This is because the manufacturers don't start from scratch each time, but use the same chip set as all their competitors and often the same reference design from the chip designers. The guts of one of these players is just as good as the next, but one may be better overall due to better design and construction of the case, or a better user manual, or better headphones, etc.
Most of the "Name Brand" parts are made in Taiwan...
Not mainland China. If you care about such things, take note.
Last time I checked, Taiwan did pretty good about treating thier workers OK, at least relatively speaking. (Sweatshop is a relative term)
They are also our allies in a major way, last time I checked anyhow...
"American components, Russian components...ALL MADE IN TAIWAN!"
Of course in this case it's all made in mainland China now but that shouldn't stop anyone from inserting their cleverest version of "In Soviet Russia...." right about here.
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
The reason they had that level of quality was they pre-tested and stress tested each component that went into the production of their consumer electronics. They spent literally billions of dollars on test equipment from companies like Aetrium and others.
As soon as Sony (and other electronics manufacturers as well) started seeing serious competetion coming from cheap Chinese imports, the easiest way to add to their bottom line was, among other things, to cut out the pre-testing.
The failure rate of each individual electronic component is pretty small, but when you have several thousand components that go into a VCR or camcorder, each component having a .001% chance of failing, the combined failure rate of all the components amounts to 1-2%. Now, when a particular component fails, the unit may not die, but something marginal like picture quality will suffer.
Sales at companies that sold test equipment plummeted - I know from personal experience.
Nowadays, a Sony VCR is pretty much just as crappy as a cheap Chinese import. The premium you pay goes to marketing, product design and adding sometimes unique and hopefully useful features - which usually backfires and winds up being a bloated and unusable product.
The lower cost leads to higher failure rates in a shorter time span, but now the technology has become disposable and it is not uncommon to replace these cheap items every 3-5 years instead of 5-7.
Think about it: When was the last time you actually took an electronic item in for repair?
I bought a camcorder last year. The tape handling sucks, it will casually eat the occasional tape. The batteries that came with it? Lets just say that I've had erections that have lasted longer. Its not a problem with the battery, but something about the unit is just sucking the juice.
When I inquired about warranty repair I was told that the unit had a 90 DAY WARRANTY! And YES, it was purchased NEW, not a refurb. I was, needless to say, shocked - but what else should I expect from our new, disposable goods economy.
Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
I've got a $50 DVD player. It's utter crap. We bought it because it was cheap. We're going to have to buy a new one soon because this one is breaking down.
And the remote which came with our DirecTV unit is breaking down, and it's not even a year old!
OTOH, my iMac is plugging along like a champion after four years of my abuse. Granted I'm on my fourth hard drive and third DVD-ROM, but still...
Ummm, there's nothing wrong with a 555 timer chip. If you don't need a high precision timing circuit, a 555 does an excellent (and very reliable) job. In fact, in a most cheap products that use a 555, it is probably one of the least likely to fail components. Integrated circuits in general tend to be very reliable run within specs. Failures are far more often due to things like mechanical problems, heat distribution, and faulty electrolytic capacitors.
----
All of whose base are belong to the what-now?
early sony dvd players were so bad that i read a class action lawsuit was brought against them. i have one of those players. it now has to be recalibrated for many discs (keep going into service menu). sometimes youll get half way through a movie when it konks out - that's how to have an evening ruined. My other player, a philips costing 1/4 as much works every time. Sony's treatment of customers was appaling. the players overheated badly, basic flaws like that. they may have improved their players now, but i wont buy sony again on principle. this is not one man's bitching, i promise. i found pages and pages of pissed of people on the 'net when i went searching for help a year ago...
This is my Sig, this is my Gun. One is for Slashdot and one is for Fun.
I agree with you, but it seems that everyone missed the point. The author confirmed that these DVD players come from the same assembly lines as name-brand players. They have, essentially, the same reliability as a Sony player (though most of us still prefer not to own them).
They agreed that because DVD players are built from standard components made very inexpensive by high volume, quality and reliability are good with no-name brands. Indeed, the famous brand names also make their DVD players in China, often on the same contract assembly lines as the no-names.
This doesn't mean former posts are incorrect in attributing product failure to cheapskate bargain hunting, but it detracts from the point of the article. These prices are a direct result of China and corporations like Wal Mart mistreating workers and underpaying them. Equally important:
What's more, many Chinese DVD manufacturers don't pay the $10 to $15 in royalties due per unit for patented technologies -- penalizing established consumer-electronics companies that honor intellectual-property rights. (emphasis mine)
What a sad reality.
Standing on the shoulders of giants.
DVD player kills YOU!
He states that the personel in those stores get absolutely low wages, that the DVD players they sell are too cheap, yet he is not informing himself when he buys one without S-video (I would not think S-video is good enough, get RGB instead!) and then he "returns it for a full refund".
Now THAT I call cheap! The store already had to take a loss on it, and now he returns the whole unit, which will most likely not be sold again, and takes a refund. Of $32. Sheesh...
He also worries about patent licenses not being paid. Well, that is not a problem for the consumer, right? This is an issue between the manufacturer and the patent holder, and probably the law in China does not require the holder of a US patent to be paid by a Chinese manufacturing company.
There is a market for high-end expensive stuff, for those that are prepared to pay too much, and there is a market for this kind of things.
When you don't think so, then don't advocate a free market. It has lots of complications like this, but it seems to be the favorite of Americans.
It's almost relevant to mention I just purchased a DVD burner for $90. A 4x, +-RW no-name DVD burner. Works good too. It's an Emprex I purchased the day after Christmas from Fry's. The Emprex web site doesn't even list it as a product of theirs.
"UNIX is very simple, it just needs a genius to understand its simplicity." -Dennis Ritchie
Macs use mostly standard parts, yes. Honestly though, get a new Dell and a new G5. Look at them on the outside. Open them up. There is no comparison. The parts are the same, but the design of the machines is completely different. Starting with the case...
Dell - cheap plastic
Apple - anodized aluminum alloy
A few days later, I went back to Fry's when the store advertised a DVD player for $39.99. What I got, for $43.29 including tax
When WILL you Americans enact some laws that require that consumer goods must be advertised to consumers with their price INCLUDING sales tax? The current situation is ludicrous. It almost seems to be encouraging people to try and reclaim the tax they paid on the goods, because after all they were advertised as $39.99, weren't they?
Over here in the UK, all advertised consumer goods MUST include VAT, or have a *clear* notice that the price excludes VAT.
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
"You get what you pay for."
Thank God there are experts out there getting paid to provide this previously unknown and important information to us.
s'wut i sed.
The worst thing of these cheap players is their lack of decent region locking. Unwitting consumers may be exposed to content from all over the world. This must stop immediately.
These raw materials will have been abstracted from many parts of the world using a mixture of Japanese, European and US mining technology. Many of the companies would be US influenced even if its for geological technology (assaying, and other high tech geophysics fields like seismics, microgravity).
The chips are probably fabricated in a plant that uses US technology even if its physically located in a cheaper country like Malaysia.
Metal pressing plants maybe Japanese or Korean but stamping dies may be cut with tool bits from Europe using US origin CAM. You wouldn't know unless you looked at a specific plant but you can be certain that the computers were probably not Chinese and most precision machine tools are not Chinese.
The semi/finished parts shipped from wherever to China using Korean or Japanese made ships. Flagged as Liberian or Panama using British officers but cheap locals. Ship runs on Saudi fuel traded out of Singapore using US made computers to settle transactions. Trucked from dockside to wherever in China and now its assembled in factories. The factory conditions may not be perfect by US middle class standards but its a job. That ship could equally easily drop off those parts in any country in South east Asia and the local truckers would be happy to transport those parts. Thats an important point !
Assembled, boxed and shipped to US. Trucked from US (LA) dockside to transhipping warehouses, then to stores. All the way US labour used at US ports, trucks and warehouses. No one questions the LA dockers pay conditions !
The author is just looking at one or two intermediate steps in the whole of the product life cycle in what looks like a political agenda. The whole system is tuned to shift the parts to any country at the drop of a tool. This is capitalism (well Adam Smith's form of competitive advantage) and it works because the alternatives have been repeatedly shown to not work. Eventually China will be too expensive and work will flow to even cheaper countries. Until that time you'll do a lot more harm by denying the Chinese labour force their cut because you don't feel you could stomach that work.
He seems quite happy to try to export US labour laws into China but I imagine there would be a bit of a cry from him if Europeans tried to export EU labour laws to the US !
design fault creates nightmare for Sony NetMD,MiniDISC ! I'v spent $400 this year on 2 Sony MiniDISCs,both had the same failure AFTER warranty ! ,the metal latch will not close after a few months use, so you can insert MD but NOT play it,also the sony PC software is buggy ,a waste of time,in the end I had to use free real player software to create MP3s to port to MD
The design fault,is this
If there's all these unlicensed DVD players around, why stop there? Why don't the vendors of those players make a selling point of disabling the region codes and macrovision, and letting people skip around in the movie the way they want to, instead of being forced to watch commercials and FBI warnings? Of course, if they're doing that, more power to them--it's bad enough to pay extra for licenses, but those "requirements" mean having to pay extra to have useful features removed. Any sympathy I might have left for licenseholders runs out when that happens.
But the problem is that in a globla economy, production of these items is a race to the bottom. The country that can produce the items for the cheapest wins. Money moves into china because they can make it cheaper than Taiwan or Japan. Then it moves to vietnam, then somewhere else.
The way you win this battle to the bottom is by keeping your costs as low as possible. If you pay people a pittance, give them no health care, retirement, etc, then you can make things cheaper. If they unionize or otherwise try to increase your costs, you move the operation to someplace cheaper.
This is a forumla for making the rich richer and the poor poorer in the long run. That's not good for anybody.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
If this reporter had done his research he would have known BEFORE entering the store wether or not S-Video or JPEG disc would have worked or not on the Cheap-O DVD Players.
Let's take a look at the models he bought:
1) AMW-S99
http://www.a-mw.com/products/dvd/s99.htm
Nope. I don't see S-Video mentioned here.
2) Sylvania DVL 100C
http://www.funai-corp.com/02_images/dvl100c.pdf
This PDF could have told you that JPEG discs can't be played.
You get what you pay for. If you don't research the products before you buy, then it's your own fault.
Dolemite
_______________________
Save the World! Use a Quote!
Hey, that is what the States are doing against anyone else in order to get out of debt, so you better tell the chinese somethig like "Bastard, who the hell do you think you are,....us?"
I have the same feeling about American cars... you're likely to have a Ford or GM last 5 years.
That is not true these days. The american industry is so efficient, so the cars are broken when they leave the factory.
is not that a Denon o Pioneer cost just little more to be produced and we are just a bunch of fools for spending 1500$ or, worse, Euros for them?
Smoke much crack lately?
Students before "The Gate of Heavenly Peace" were attacked with tanks.
And you're saying give them time, Norma Rae is just around the corner?
I mean, I'm all for idealism, but holy crap, that is some way out in space shit.
James is on the case...
It is not just the 555 timer, there are in fact MIL versions (high reliability) of this IC, so it cannot be that bad (it depends who made it).
The big issue from cheap products is counterfeiting. In the past few years the American DOD and the CAA have warned Aerospace companies not to source electronic components from Chinese distributors and supplies, as counterfeiting is rife. Fit these to avionics for a passenger jet, and you are in [deep] trouble.
The problem is that everybody expects cheaper electronics these days, as microprocessors get more powerful. Unfortunately, this is still true when some people look into the costs of running an aircraft they think that the costs of electronics can be lowered. Due to demand, most electronic component manufacturers now go for the big market, dropping the niche high reliability market. This means that professional electronic equipment that requires high reliability is put is a situation of relying on the unreliable.
The irony is, without highly reliable transport systems (many of which require reliable electronics), Globalisation does not work.
555 ? widely acknowledged low quality? This is "Insightful"?
No.
If parent had said 741, I might have swallowed it. But now he's clearly just talking shit.
As many other responders have pointed out, the 555 is a very nice timer chip. However, any of the obvious functions of the 555 in a modern digital device are more likely to be performed by some sort of microcontroller. You won't find a 555 in a DVD player.
Moreover, I defy you (any of you) to find an electronic component in any (ANY) sub $1000 piece of consumer electronics that is handmade, or in fact ANYTHING other than "batch produced". Whoever wasted mod points with that "+1, Insightful" might wanna stick to moderating comments you understand, OK?
Ask someone knowledgeable? Yeah, that's me. Master's in EE. Maybe not so humble, but I DO know IC's.
Moronic troll? Yeah, that's parent poster. Check his history, and his journal.
Dipshit mods? You know who you are.
>This is a forumla for making the rich richer and the poor poorer in the long run.
I won't disagree with your argument at all (it's very correct), except this point.
Doesn't it seem obvious that this is a formula for improvement? The "bottom" will always get higher. Heck, look at minimum wage. Most people measure minimum wage for Chinese workers in cents. Imagine getting paid like that at the start of the industrial revolution in the US! You'd be a tycoon!
As these manufacturers look for cheaper wages, the bottom will rise. The fact is that in life there is always a bottom and a top (unless you live in a communist country, like Cuba, and even then that's not at all true). That's the way things go. The best you can do is improve living for the bottom while you improve living for yourself.
That's what this formula does. When China unionizes, it will be *because* of this formula. Other countries a little slow on the start of the revolution have already been forced to improve workers rights, for example, look at Japan. This formula will be what forced China to get workers rights. Without this formula that would never have happened! And then, the next country it "preys" on will benefit. And then another, and another, and so on. The amazing synergy continues.
It really is a miraculous system, when you think about it.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Globalising companies are not expanding to the third world to "send much needed money into the country". They are looking to exploit the quality-of-life and legislative differential between 1st and 3rd world countries. Corporations don't like anti-exploitation, safety laws, environmental protection laws -- it cuts potential profits.
Corporations only exist and only work towards making a profit for their owners. That is all they do. Ethics do not come into it. All ethical behaviour has to come from:
a) the people who directly control the corporation
b) the people who control the environment of the corporation (i.e. the government)
If you live in a 3rd world country, the only way your life will get better when the factory comes is if those in charge (your government, elected or not) demand support for you as a condition of building the factory.
If a government does not demand that corporation build houses, schools and hospitals as part of the factory deal, the corporation won't do it. It's not a charity. It's not an international development agency. It's a corporation. Corporations only exist to make profits for their owners.
The problem some third world countries are having is that they are run by tinpot dictators who will let the corporations rape and pillage their fertile lands as long as the corporation gives them a backhander or builds them a new mansion. I don't like to assign "blame" in these situations, because it's tricky. The corporation is only doing what corporations do best -- get the best possible deal for the cheapest price. The tinpot dictator was probably installed there by the US anyway, so the pitiful serfs are stuck with that until the US empire crumbles.
Does my bum look big in this?
Because of the expense and time lost of shipping the return, and inconvenience of doing without a dvd player for a while, the cheaper players look more attractive.
I know that making sweeping generalizations based on no evidence whatsoever is a Slashdot tradition, so I take it with a grain of salt. But with worsening economic conditions in the US, it seems that we are seeing more and more resentful misinformation being repeated here. Sometimes it's India, sometimes it's China.
Well, as it happens, I *live* in China. I'm American, and I've lived and worked all over the world. And frankly speaking, when you guys talk about China, 99% of the time you sound like complete and utter morons, or worse yet, complete and utter biggoted racist morons. It depends on the post.
It seems, reading Slashdot (and other American news, too, actually, and even some European papers) that it's quite in vogue to bash China for a) illegally manipulating its currency, b) having slave-labor-like working conditions c) not respecting human rights.
I'm not even going to get into the notion of illegal currency manipulation. As annoying as not being able to freely trade RMB is for me, living here, the currency is China's and they can do whatever the hell they want with it. It always amuses me when we Americans cry "international law", given our track record. International law? What international law? See Iraq. And don't give me an BS about the IMF. We are the IMF, and given the way we're currently being raped by China economically, if we wanted to pull aid or threaten pulling aid or anything like that, we could. That we haven't simply means that it's not in our best interest at this point in time. The only thing close to interational law in the world is the UN, and we've let everyone know in no uncertain terms how much we respect it as a governing body. Or then there's the international war crimes tribunal in the hague which we refuse to support for fear that an American might be brought to trial there. But I digress.
As for slave labor, it's funny that my countrymen are so quick to forget their own history. I'm not even going to get into the actual, institutionalized slave labor that existed here. Let's look at paid workers. Back in the old days, when the US was the libertarian paradise that so many Slashdotters seem to want to go back to, we had child/slave labor, no minimum wage laws, sweat shops, no unions, etc, etc. We worked our butts off for almost no compensation and you can forget about a dental plan. Why? Because we were developing, but we called it something else -- the industrial revolution.
Rich and poor were incredibly polarized then -- the days of the rich yeoman farmer were long behind us, and great cities of the US like New York were built on the sweat of the poor and the oppression of the working class. Deny it all you want, but that's how it was.
Before some idiot starts spouting about how much more free than China the US is, take a good peek in your history books at what happened to the first union organizers in this country. Don't fool yourself, the US was then and is still a plutocracy, where the rich buy power and influence. It's sickening. Sure, we have rights, and I commend the spirit in which they were written, but ask any young African American being harassed by cops in the ghetto what sorts of rights he has.
I used to be a rich little sniveling white boy growing up in the burbs of Silicon Valley, spouting Libertarian rhetoric and talking about how any one, given enough resolve, can work his way up in this great country of ours. And then I went and checked out how the other half lives. Let me tell you, it's not pretty. And the poor are born poor and they die poor, and that's the way of it. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't been there, or at least hasn't bothered to look at the statistics. Did you know that socialist europe has more class mobility than the US?
China is dirt poor, but they are working their asses off to better themselves, just like we did. And one day, mark my words, they will be wealthy, just as we are. And the scarcity of resources on this planet will mean simply that
Something appears to be missing here. Have No other EE engineers here considered automation costs? Its often difficult to predict the true manufacturing cost of many items, mainly due to automation. Many automated products lines outstrip even the cheapest labour by an order of magnitude. The cheapest items on the shelf arent always the ones that use the most labour, in many cases its the least due to automation. I have been stunned in my career just how cheap contract manufacturers will produce PCB assemblies for units of less than a 1000. Even at orders of 100 units small contract manufactures automate in my experience , my managers and myself have been left wondering should we ofer them more money to make sure the quality is higher because we were surprised how cheap it is,.. thats how cheap it can be.(And yes I talk to the pick and place and tooling people etc on the assembly floor so I do know exactly how they are making my designs and what issues ,which bits are automated and which are hand done etc)
Whats more items made in automated lines have much higher quality and lower error rates.
Too me the main costs are actually managment, marketing and IP (MAINLY IP in the form of prefabed chip/IC IP). Manufacturing costs of a product once its selling can be very small.
Yes i do know alot(ALOT) of stuff is hand made in china but in reality they are really only just managing to compete with automation.
What I hope is that they can automate their production and thus improve their working conditions and they can distribute wealth evenly from these automated lines, because otherwise they are stuck where they are. whats more as i understand automation is starting to happen more and more...now lets invest,..whats the growth rate again?
Costs are coming down because we automate, not because quality is going down. To them, the ones who dont automate, the costs of these devices are still astronomical.
They are all working fine for a year so far. Under extreme kid conditions, and extreme hot conditions in my A/V cabinets. They play everything... DVD-R, SVCD on CDR... etc. They are great and I easily recommend them.
I didn't know poor Chinese kids made them but I've got to say Kudos, good job!
Dude, I built a fucking robot with 555's. It is a kick ass chip.
Tim
Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
Isn't it sad that somebody totally clueless about consumer electronics can get the title of 'sales clerk' nowadays? What's the bloody point in them being there if they can't help you with your purchase? I think there should be some kind of mandatory training / exam they should have to pass before they can get that title.
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
.. caveat emptor.
"Derp de derp."
It looks like Funai is licensed, and AMW doesn't look like it is but perhaps that's not the right name to give it.
My TV doesn't seem to have S-Video, so composite's probably fine, though I'll have to check again before buying anything.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
From the article, "Maybe, in the end, it's enough to be aware of what's happening behind the scenes as we enjoy this cornucopia of bargains."
.
This seems to be a rather apathetic and cynical closing statement. Awareness by itself can't do anything. It is not enough to simply be aware of it if someone is in need of help. I would say that while it's likely impossible to avoid products with hidden costs in the modern world, one thing that anybody can do is help support your favorite non-profit, non-governmental organization that is working on behalf of people in dire need, worldwide. Examples include:
Amnesty International , Human Rights Watch , and Oxfam International
It's no overstatement to say that if you can afford a twenty-dollar DVD player, you can afford to give twenty dollars to charity. You can donate online, with your credit/debit card, right now. So what is stopping you from helping out?
All rights reserved. All wrongs reversed.
...but it would ignore the fact that the Apple and the cheapest-assed clone uses the same exact components. Apple combines them in a sexier way, but they're still the same component.
Or do you think there's a special *Apple* hard drive in there. Or special *Apple* memory. Or a special *Apple DVD Recorder". Or a speciall *Apple* LCD display.
Maybe you believe that, but you're the only one.
>Globalising companies are not expanding to the third world to "send much needed money into the country"
True.
>They are looking to exploit the quality-of-life and legislative differential between 1st and 3rd world countries.
False. Why do I have to explain Chinese Labour Law to everyone here? No, Chinese law doesn't allow for 16 hour days (Article 36), 12 year old workers (Article 15), forced labour(Article 56) and 5 cents an hour (well, in general there is no minimum wage there, but it'd be a rare sight to find a 5 cent an hour worker).
They may be exploiting the quality of life there, but, as a massive choice, people there have chosen to work at factories than work on farms. The question nobody who wants to denounce globalisation ever wants to ask is Why? Why did they choose to work at a factory than work where they did before? Why? Chinese factories do not go to cities with guns and tell people to work or die. They offer a certain compensation for labour, and people choose to accept it.
>Corporations don't like anti-exploitation, safety laws, environmental protection laws -- it cuts potential profits.
True. However, as a generalisation, most people find a lot to dislike about many laws. So this is really applicable to all, not just corporations.
>Corporations only exist and only work towards making a profit for their owners. That is all they do. Ethics do not come into it.
True.
>All ethical behaviour has to come from:
>a) the people who directly control the corporation
>b) the people who control the environment of the corporation (i.e. the government)
False. You are missing c:
c) The employees working for the corporation.
The Chinese aren't the mindless automatons you may think they are. They have brains. They can reason their way out of situations they aren't happy with. There are no guns held to heads at Chinese factories.
>If you live in a 3rd world country, the only way your life will get better when the factory comes is if those in charge (your government, elected or not) demand support for you as a condition of building the factory.
Yes and no. But I'll take that and run with it:
Life certainly wasn't getting any better before the factory, so if you're suggesting it could, at all, possibly, get better because of the factory, so be it.
>If a government does not demand that corporation build houses, schools and hospitals as part of the factory deal, the corporation won't do it.
False. I'd provide a bunch more links, but I think you can clearly see what you're saying isn't true.
>It's not a charity.
True. Companies will build the hospitals, schools, etc, if they feel they can benefit from it. That's where your wallet (ie: vote) comes into play.
>The problem some third world countries are having is that they are run by tinpot dictators who will let the corporations rape and pillage their fertile lands as long as the corporation gives them a backhander or builds them a new mansion.
Now that is true, and I won't disagree.
However, only the people can fix that problem. No amount of money, wether it be a lack of it, or too much, is going to change that. If every country all of a sudden chose to quit buying Chinese tomorrow, China would not suddenly become a democracy.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
"While you could buy one of these cheaper DVD players, considering that it has fewer features anyway than the higher-end, and more expensive models, when it won't last long, why would you?"
Because the cheaper models lack these features:
1) They lack the "feature" where you can only watch "your" DVD region
2) The lack the Macrovision feature that stops you from making a backup copy
3) They lack the feature that won't play DVD+/-R (Toshiba)
4) They lack the feature that stops them from playing VCD's (Toshiba, some Sony's).
With all the "Features" the big names have, I don't understand who would buy the cheap ones that "lack" these "features".
There are other UK manufacturers who almost certainly assemble their own DVD players. These include Arcam and Roksan.
Buying cheap shit hurts people in other countries. We've seen it all before, with Nike et al. What's new about this?
Also, the same is happening in America-people are getting poisoned in Intel factories. Not good.
I'm amazing. You aren't. SUCK IT
Seriously. At the rate technology is changing, we will need personal replicators at home just to build our own devices. Imagine just buying a products blueprint online, then sending it to your replicator to build what ever X-device you bought.
You can't get anymore throw-away then that.
Let's just hope you don't have to replace the replicators just as often too...YIKES
Life is not for the lazy.
I'd rather go into a "mom and pop" or specialty store. Here in Toronto, we have places like Bay-Bloor radio (or in Hamilton, East Hamilton Radio). A little more expensive perhaps, but they really know their stuff - these guys read the manuals on their lunch breaks.
So you endorse employees working on job-related activities while on thier lunch-break?
Have you paid a visit to those prison camps for political prisoners who have to fabricate goods for no payment at all, goods which are sold in the western world? China has a lot of those prisons. I don't think you did, because if you would have done that, you wouldn't have posted this post.
I'm not an American, I live in Europe. So I can fairly say China AND the USA are non-free countries. I also say the US of A should shut up, with 4% of the world population and 40% of all the weath on this earth in their pockets. However, that doesn't make it right what's going on in China, especially when you don't think a 1 party system is ok.
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
shepd is right on this and you are wrong. On the whole, the US went through all of this. Sure the field has changed a little bit with cuts in one arena or another but honestly, it's been done.
It is up to the workers. I'm not a member of any union and currently do not see a need for unions in America. However, change happens with groups. People with a business to run want more and more money to make thier business bigger and better and more profitable. They are going to push this the easy way first (workers get the shaft) then move on.
When the workers refuse they will think about moving operations wich may work out for awile untill the workers at that location refuse as well. At some point a company either gives in to the workers or tries to outsource and start the cycle over. Good news, the cycle is limited and as soon as workers get on board the sooner your DVD player will cost more.
BTW... IP sucks, do it for the love of it!
The components of a DVD player are inexpensive and the design is certainly no secret. New products eventually become commodities. I don't see why that is something for consumers to be concerned about. If the first DVD player that the author bought didn't have S-video, then he shouldn't bought the other cheap DVD player to begin with. I think it's unusual that people complain about the things that we buy are getting cheaper. I'm not really convinced by the "buy domestic" rhetoric, but DVD player have never been made in the US, so it's not as if DVD player jobs are going overseas. If anything, the lower prices of the DVD players are helping to reduce the trade deficit and consumers are getting a better deal.
And that my friend is what I like to call GEE (Global Ecconmic Equilibrium). It a simple concept really. Because we live in a global ecconomy, the standard of living in rich countries such as US and rest of Europe will stagnate or drop while poor coutries will gain wealth. Eventually, the world will all meet up to a central point of a basic standard of living (assuming politics arn't in the way...which they're always are). Once GEE is reached, the entire world will enjoy an exponential growth in the standard of living. Imagine you or your children living the highlife of Bill Gates 50 years from now.
Life is not for the lazy.
And I suppose the Native Americans were just using the continent on loan from France, right?
Oops, I guess I shouldn't have pointed that out, troll.
Why don't they ask Customs to seize the unlicensed DVD players? They have the authority to enforce copyrights, trademarks and patents.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Sure. And what odds are you willing to bet on that vision coming true?
Come now, look at his journal. Please mod accordingly.
> Other countries a little slow on the start of the revolution have already been forced to improve workers rights, for example, look at Japan.
I too, agree with everything you've said apart from this.
Workers rights during a boom are not such an issue - when everyone's making money, there's no need to unionize. If you're talking about the official "abolition" of the six day week in Japan, then that was not at the behest of the workers but in response to the lack of money being spent on leisure in Japan.
Even now, if a typical Japanese worker had their way, they'd work Saturdays too (many still do anyway). If you don't know why they'd want to do that, then you're not familiar enough with Japan to comment on it's workers rights.
"It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
If the likes of Sony et al didn't have their head up their asses about hopelessly broken regional encoding and just dumped it altogether, the more sales will go their way.
I suppose regional distributors might whine about grey imports, but how many sales would they lose anyway? If it were more than a miniscule fraction of their total I would be very surprised. Besides, most EU countries prosecute grey imports of movies so it's not like regional encoding is adding much.
exactly, there's still a big cultural difference between china and the west, the *formula* might not work the way grandparent-poster thinks it 'll work.
> Environment, in Belgium we pay a recycling tax on every consumer product, sure it 's only like three dollars or so at most, but it's levied on every product; normal, cheap and dirt cheap
(heck even my Creative(tm) Mouse was 'made in China'
The Awful Truth
A Fucking robot? Cooooool....
Why hasn't it been in Slashdot?
If I buy this low-priced DVD, or tennis shoes, or just about anything else that costs less due to overseas labor, somebody is probably going to be paid what we in the USA would consider very low wages to do the job in possibly "sweatshop" conditions.
If these products are no longer available, what happens to the workers who make them? Many of them, instead of making low wages with a job, will make NO wages, with no job. I think it is better to provide them with a job that allows them experience and income, which can eventually fund new enterprises and allow those workers to move up into higher paying jobs, or become business owners.
Low-paying job or no job? That's the question.
Visit Lockjaw's Lair. He won't bite.
There is no crime in producing sub-$30 DVD players in China. The crime would be to refuse to buy these on grounds of "exploitation".
Long live free trade.
You can't say it's a crime to refuse to buy something on *any* grounds, then say "long live free trade". Make up your mind which you want. "Free" trade means that people at *all* levels can buy what they want if someone's willing to sell it to them. It also means they can refuse.
Of course, free_trade --|--> democracy in the current sense of "free trade"; nor vice versa; democracy isn't liberty, it's the will of the majority of the people. Certain... groups of people seem to have trouble seeing this.
"Free" trade is meaningless bullshit unless the workers (and to some extent, consumers) at all levels are free to make their own choices.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
And then, the next country it "preys" on will benefit.
What happens if there is no country left as prey?
Inflation and automation?
Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
Shouldn't this be the hidden cost of ALL electronics? Doesn't the author admit that ALL these electronics are being made in the same shops in china? The only difference being the more expensive brand name stuff gives more money to the parent company?
-- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
The deep discounts, then, come with a cost we don't see: no more mom-and-pop electronics stores in the United States
Most moms and pops these days can hardly manage recording one program and watching a second one using ten-year-old VCRs. No offense to the over-twenty-five bracket (I'm in it, after all), but when I want advice on which widescreen HDTV set to buy for my living room, I'll buy a copy of "Consumer Reports".
buy your clothing second-hand, at least then you're one more step removed from the production, and it's cheap.
there is nothing miraculous about working for under 3 dollars an hour.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
if a typical Japanese worker had their way, they'd work Saturdays too
As someone who has lived and worked in Japan, I'd like to correct this. No one I knew enjoyed all the unpaid overtime. They did it because they felt compelled to by their company.
Actually, there was one programmer who would have worked even if the boss/company hadn't demanded it, but the other 500+ would gladly have taken the time off.
In fact, in seven years, I met three people who told me they enjoyed their work. One was the aforementioned programmer, the other two were the presidents of their companies.
I suppose one could argue that 80% of a store's Apex DVD players are going to technical idiots, since Apex is about the cheapest brand out there. So these owners are going to be a bit rougher on their players, increasing the likelyhood of breakage.
Should we be looking at some economics website for the true poop about software design, OS's, and driver compatibility questions?
No, they would probably be anecdotal, thinly analyzed, and full of obvious errors no one working in the field would ever make.
And so is most of the macroeconomics discussed here.
"for connecting to an average television set that's 32 inches or smaller. "
wow
anyone know what's the average in home set size today? strangely, in my (I believe over average) home (2 walking talking adults, one just now-crawler) there are 6 television display capable devices, the largest of which is 25 inches..
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Mom and Pop stores can be worse. They tend to know what the profit margins are, and have a direct financial interest in the store. It depends on the individual whether they are genuinely helpful, or just want to line their pockets, but I find that in general salesmen are slimey bastards.
You don't need shit electronics to be happy.
Sell the TV. Sell the videos. Sell the video games. Discontinue the cable TV. Get a low end computer and dialup. If the local library has a computer lab just go there.
Get some books or a library card or both. Buy a musical instrument and some sheet music. Listen to the local orchestra. Go to town cultural events (if your town doesn't have them then start some of your own). Paint, sketch, do origami, chinese paper cutting, wood carving, or sewing. Write for fun.
For group fun board games are in. I recommend many of the German-style board games by Wolfgang Kramer, Reiner Knizia, Andreas Seyfarth, or Klaus Teuber if you haven't tried them yet. Or a couple packs of cards. I could be satisfied with Hearts, Eucher (if necessary), and Poker. Bridge alone is enough for many people and I haven't even tried it yet.
Well there you go. You don't need brain melting, child labor using, chemical pollution spewing electronics to be happy.
What I'd like to know is... why oh why do we tolerate junk that can't be repaired or updated?
A lot of problems (both jobs and environment) would be solved if it were economical for people to take products to a repair shop for updates and/or repairs instead of throwing it away. Also, there would be an actual market for used equipment.
I haven't taken anything in for repairs since the 80's, it's cheaper to throw away and buy new.
Perhaps if the products were made similiar to the way computer boards are built, one could just buy the new component and upgrade/fix it themselves.
Just the usual leftist whining about sweatshops. When will people realise, sweatshops are how a developing economy bootstraps?
Big Biz outsources to pesthole country X, paying locals much more than they could hope to earn from any local employer, even if it is only a few dollars a month. The locals save up, gain skills, gain reputation, and soon enough X isn't anymore a pesthole but a thriving hub of business, and the locals can raise prices. See the recent discussions of rising outsource costs in India.
Globalization may "rush to the bottom" - but it quickly fills in that bottom. Making, I'll add, improvements that leftist redistribution consistently fails to do, and sweatshop-boycotts actively reverse!
So I say again: blah.
Does this mean that if we buy MORE dvd players, the Chinese folks making them will have a better life? Maybe this is a rare instance where the opposite isn't true
Disagree! Disagreement on so many fronts.
Naturally, more units sold is better for business. This will either create more employment, economic spinoffs, better pay, something.
DVD players happen to be quite useful, more so than say, masking tape or nail clippers. People watching DVDs are likely to become inspired. At the very least they become more demanding consumers.
Of course, if you personally buy more DVD players you don't have a greater marginal utility unless you donate/resell them.
Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
From the article: These ultra-inexpensive machines, from no-name importers such as... Apex... Apex? A no-name? Ok, this guy is an idiot, and obviously know nothing about electronics.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
...with our insatiable appetite for bargain prices. The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal just had an excellent article on this subject. One item to note from the article is how Wal-mart ran a "Buy American" campaign through the 1980's, and now, if Wal-Mart were a nation, it would be China's eighth-largest trading partner, ahead of Britain and Russia. Kiss your American job goodbye!
It isn't "miraculous" at all. It's obvious and the last two centuries have largely shown determined efforts to prevent this from happening because it is so obvious.
There are only so many things that can be imported. Take, for instance, Kuwait. 95% of Kuwaiti exports are in petroleum, which makes up over half of GDP, since it is essentially their only natural resource. Nearly 100% of food is imported as agricultural capacity is nearly zero. The United States, on the other hand, has no reason to import anything except to lower the price. There are very, very limited exceptions, mostly in precious and semi-precious metals used in manufacturing where trading is based on necessity. Relying on unnecessary imports (note that something being "cheaper" does not make it "necessary") creates a succession of structural unemployment, depressed wages and/or government subsidy to keep uncompetitve sectors from producing millions of homeless people. At some point you simply must accept that the guy across the street in New York will not be able to produce anything for you at the price available in New Delhi and that some services must be provided in terms of your local economy, unless you envision a future at the homeless shelter.
Realize what is happening: production is MOVING not dramatically INCREASING. If production moves and is not quickly replaced, your GDP suffers because, obviously, you're no longer PRODUCING. We haven't found anything yet to replace what we're shipping offshore, so hey, if you've got any ideas on the "next big thing" that can only be produced here, you just fire away.
The total global economy is now about $110 Trillion, or about ten times that of the United States. The total global population is about 6 billion. That's an average GDP per capita of $18,333/year, which is HALF the current GDP/capita of the United States, but it is twice that of Poland and nearly five times that of China and almost ten times that of India. Now, considering the amount of production moving to China and India, which represent a third of the world population, and that the United States represents 10% of the global economy, one can assume that for every $1000 increase in GDP per capita in China and India, it will cost the United States $868 in GDP per capita. Why? Getting India and China to $18k/capita through exports would take transfers of $34,000,000,000,000 per year in production, 10% of which by definition would come out of the United States (in reality the US takes 20% of their exports, while India imports half as much and China practically nothing), unless new production is created, which to date has not happened (remember all the talk of "jobless recovery?"). That $3.4 Trillion would represent nearly a third of our economy, say, equivalent to losing California, New York and Texas.
Since 1983, GDP in real terms has only increased by about 18% while imports have increased from 8% to roughly 14% of GDP. In current dollars, that's $750 billion in production already shifted, equal to $2,900 in GDP/capita. The minimum wage of $3.80 in 1983 would require $5.70 today, but that wage is now only $5.15, which is a loss of 11% in standard of living, or about $1100/year. Since this is generally the wage we pay our manufacturing line workers, do you think these things are unrelated?
I don't reject the idea of equalizing incomes globally through trade. However, the current pace is suicidal especially when thinking in terms of moving production to countries with more than five times the human resources and one tenth the cost of labor already used to export to the United States three times what is imported. That kind of relationship cannot possibly be mutually beneficial to any sustainable degree. We already have a trade deficit of nearly $550 billion, which is $2000/year for every man, woman and child in the country, thus a family of four is already supporting $8,000 in trade-related waste. Escaping that scenario would take a miracle that cannot be imported from China.
It seems quite obvious from reading responses to this article from members of the community that you simply do not understand the simple principle of economy of scale.
Countries like China (with over 1 BILIION people) and India (with over 1 BILIION people) are able to keep mass production costs low ( and thereby keep their manufactured products ultra competitive against 'Western' nations) because they have a larger segment of population who are willing to work for lower wages.
There are numerous reasons why wages are lower in China and India:
1) Their domestic currencies are kept artificially low to encourage foreign investments and export based industries.
2) The cost of living is significantly lower than the 'West'.
3) There are very few powerful labour unions and labour union based disputes are relatively few and far between.
4) Their government's keep the prices of raw source materials (including water and electricity) low for industry and the infrastructure costs (sewage, garbage disposal) are also kept low.
The bottom line is that India and China will not simply disappear because Vietnam decides they can match prices. The simple fact is that both China and India have BILIION + populations and that population (including their relative growth rates) can far exceed the supply of other competing nations like : Vietnam, Indonesia or Romania. These countries may try to pose a threat to the India or China but, they simply can not match populations (larger populations = larger segment of population that will work for lower wages).
In the West we can see this in competitive industries: there are always people or pockets of population who will work for less money than you or I will.
What few people understand at Slashdot is that India and China will simply not disappear from the manufacturing world because they are being challenged by South Africa or a country as such. Both India and China have booming economies because they have booming populations..chock full of people who that keep labour prices ultra-competitive (sometimes as is the case in China..this translates into gross humanitarian violations - something we mostly forget when shopping for bargains).
I am always amazed as to where people in here think India and Chian will go once Vietnam decides to challenge either or both on the basis of lower labour rates?! China and India outnumber other countries and therefore, challenge directly the power of other nations to compete in the labour market for manufacturing jobs.
Just look at what is happening in the programming world. How many jobs have been sent to India (India pumps out an astonishing 25 000+ programmers yearly). You simply can not compete against this ( no matter how much we complain that are quality levels are better in the 'West' there are still companies who will outsource to India or China simply because they save $).
Please remember that history tells us that the 'West' came looking for the 'East' and not the other way around.
I once had a very smart University Professor who warned about the power of India and China. He simply said that if everyone in the USA drank one coke can each/day this would translate into 250 million+ cans per day. But if either India or China were to do the same, this translates into 1 Billion+ cans/day ( if both do then we are talking about 2 Billion + cans consumed). This is why he argued, the West will always want market share in India and China and why 'Western' nations view these countries in terms of economics when setting foreign policy regarding them.
More like the level of a Indian brick layer. I assume from your comment you have no idea of the relative populations of various places or the difference in living standards between them.
development.lombardi.com
These manufacturers, no doubt, build products for a niche market -- high-end audio equipment -- and are not in competition with the Chinese, et al. It's not that America can't build a DVD player for less than $8000.
It is far more likely that Americans, Scots, and Japanese can't build one for less than $100-$200, and entrepreneurs in these countries reason that they can't compete in the low-end market.
If consumers really wanted to "buy American," American companies would produce DVD players at the low-end, though there would likely be a small premium attached to the price. People buying low-end DVD players simply don't care where they come from, obviously.
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
The design fault,is this ,the metal latch will not close after a few months use, so you can insert MD but NOT play it
Take it apart and try to fix it. If it's off warranty anyway, then why not try? Not enough people even try and repair things themselves. If it's just that the lid doesn't stay closed, try a piece of tape. If the latch itself triggers some kind of sensor, try and hack around it. Kind of ghetto but hey, new minidisc players don't grow on trees.
Freedom: "I won't!"
There are very few products that are as recycable as automobiles.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
The one great feature about the Cyberhomes is that they are region free (google is your friend).
Really ... with all the web forums and boards out there devoted to home theater and even publications like Consumers Reports, you really don't need further confirmation from a sales clerk. In purchasing my Sony this Christmas I did all my research on line plus a visit to Best Buy to actually see the sets side by side. Went back home and ordered on-line with free shipping.
What's more, many Chinese DVD manufacturers don't pay the $10 to $15 in royalties due per unit for patented technologies -- penalizing established consumer-electronics companies that honor intellectual-property rights.
So, if I get this straight, people who buy cheap DVD players should be hunted down like dogs by the RIAA because they are the same filthy commies as linux users who want to _play_ a DVD on their computers?
The person who has one of those low paying third world jobs does have a few benefits.
His daughters will not have to turn to prostitution to earn money for food, etc. Nor will he have to sell them to raise cash.
His children can go to school instead of prowling through landfills hoping to find salable items.
His family will be able to eat regularly. He is in a position to have his very own mud/straw/adobe abode.
And on and on. I suspect that few people see things from the "oppressed" workers view. While it would be good if all workers had the pay and benefits of US and European workers, the little that they get is big step up for most of them.
I neither advocate nor oppose exploitation of third world workers. I do notice that even in the third world, a low paying job is better than none.
Welcome to capitalism...
Buckle up... The ride is just starting...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
He must work at this place Fucking Machines (not safe for work).
This is why things are getting so cheap. If you open up an AMW DVD player and a Toshiba DVD player, you'll find them nearly identical. There will be 3 or 4 ICs instead of the dozens from just a couple of years ago. There will be a Processor/Codec, some RAM, and a D/A convertor (and even that may be integrated with the Processor)... Hell, there may only be ONE IC, but I haven't cracked mine open to look..
As the level of integration increases, there is lower cost involved: less design time, easier to manufacture, lower failure rates, simpler designs. It all adds up. Sure, cheap labor makes a difference, too, but that extra $50 you'll pay for a Toshiba mostly goes to pad the bottom line..
"Work is something that many of the poorest economies around the world are desperately short on (and if the protestors had their way, there would be even less).
Unemployment is still astronomically high, by Western standards, in many of the nations with the competitive advantage of inexpensive labor. Another thing rarely considered by the protesters is that the workers in such factories are not coerced to stay. They stay because the money they earn is commensurate to the work they perform and is equal to or greater than their local alternatives."
http://capmag.com/article.asp?id=151
Lax legal systems don't enforce IP laws. Multinationals face competition with there own IP. IP issues are the hardest items predict the effects in Capitalist theory.
Automakers have found that Chinese knockoff autos are now being produced before the release of the original product. Thus companies that expected to have access to the large Chinese markets now find home grown Chinese competition using their own IP much sooner than expected.
The Chinese are building their own CPU chips and Linux trying to avoid the "lock-in" and expensive IP they cannot afford.
Communication advances have allows the transportion of key knowledge on a global scale. This allows jobs to be exported to low wage countries but add up all the knowledge to do those jobs and you have competition. In the end, Knowledge is Capital, methods and procedures of economic production.
I think the multinationals were taken by China and will be the big losers on the entire deal. Give an man a fish, teach a man to fish...
It really is a miraculous system, when you think about it.
Alchemists claiming to create gold out of nothing seemed miraculous at one time too... The capitalists are no different...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
There are very few products that are as recycable as automobiles.
Yeah, just look at Cuba - hard to find a car newer than 1970.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Are you aware that most clerks at main street names are paid comission on the sales that they make? They are even more interested in sending you home with the most expensive item there is because it directly affects their paychecks.
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
Sure enough, but there are always exceptions to the rule. This little beauty is a bargain. Its based on uClinux, which must help in keeping costs down.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000A
nick
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
Have you read the book 'Unsustainable' by Eamonn Fingleton. An Interesting read.. he has a web site
? Prod_ID=915
here http://www.unsustainable.org/
The next few years, I'm sure, will prove to be interesting.....
I have read on another web site where it is believed that China has no intentions of allowing workers to 'rise' to the middle class. China likes
it's current position as 'shop-floor' to the world. More like 'sweat-shop' to the world...
An interesting article related..
http://www.tradealert.org/view_art.asp
I bought a Sony Grand Wega III LCD Rear Projection television this fall. Within a week it had failed, and as I learned on the AVS Forum ("GWIII buzz" thread, still active), many other people have had the same problem.
At the current time nobody knows what's REALLY wrong with these sets, since Sony isn't saying -- their customer service people continue to deny problems and offer the typical scripted responses about unplugging, resetting or "normal" behavior (like degaussing, which an LCD set would never do...).
At this point, there's a service bulletin but at least to forum participants have had the "fix" NOT fix their TVs, and there's a strong (but, of course, unverifiable through Sony) rumor that they have gotten so many returns on this set that they have actually halted production in order to figure out what's wrong.
What's appalling about this is that it's not a $89 VCR or DVD player, but televisions costing as much as $8000 that are failing! It's apparent that the design engineering and reliability testing is nonexistant or is the equivilent of selling the sets as betas to unsuspecting customers in order to figure out what's REALLY going to break on them.
Of course this hasn't prevented them from still selling the sets from production runs known to be rife with problems, denying the problem to customers and failing to inform people about multu-thousand dollar televisions which are like ticking time bombs.
I have a 12 year old Sony Trinitron that still looks as good as the day I got it as an open-box showroom special. I replaced the power supply last summer when it blew out as I knew that I'd never buy another set as well made as this for even 3 times the cost of repair.
Sony used to mean quality, now it seems like its been infected by the crappy US manufacturing standards and business leadership we all know and loathe.
The comment was made that implies that all Major name companies don't subscribe to the "Slave Labour" that the no-name brands do..
.05$ a day more.. but does that make a diffrence?)
In todays market Everyone is cutting what ever corners they can to get that All Valued stock price up as high as possible.. Keeping away fron these no-names will not stop this as I am sure alto of the major bands will also pay the lowest ammount possible to get their DVD players aswell.. (They might pay
Who needs WiFi when we can have Packet Over Sheep! http://datacomm.org/PoS-InternetDraft.txt
Then let's see your numbers to prove it.....
I wouldn't buy an Apex or similar, especially since they are known to not play VCDs well.
Huh? Apex players were some of the first players available on the market that would consistently play VCDs and SVCDs. Still are, compared to most manufacturers. Go try playing one on a Toshiba, for example.
Hell, my 2 year old Apex can play any mpg stream, any resolution, simply burned to a cd-r. Doesn't even have to be in official (S)VCD format.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
FastCompany, who I generaly refuse to read, had this eye-opening article on the hidden costs of shopping at WalMart.
Manufacturing has not doubled. In twenty years it has added about 60%. That's not even 2.5% per year. Inflation over the same period was 3.1% per year. Besides, the concern is that as a function of per capita GNP, which is obviously a function of popluation, is changing and not in an upward direction. You've failed to site direct references to authoritative sources, so here's mine:
.014% of GNP). "Soaring" my ass. YES, GNP has increased so that .014% of X may be greater than .020% of Y, but the real gains were in finance and services. YES, absent huge increases in unemployment that means we are shifting jobs around. However, as you have keenly noted, "blue-collar" jobs often pay around the median (read: not "well," just not "badly"). Service jobs usually pay at or near the minimum wage, which is $2.33 where I live.
6 ,0 0.html
/. post. Econometrics are far too complex for this venue. However, it is safe to say, things are not so rosy as you seem to hope.
http://www.bea.gov/bea/dn2/gpoc.htm
You will notice that we have dropped from total manufacturing being about 18% of GNP to 14% of GNP between 1987 and 2001. You will also notice that we have added roughly 30 million in population. In terms of electronics manufacturing, we've lost nearly 30% in that sector just between 1994 and 2001 (.020% of GNP to
As for your statement about "bogus zero-sum economics," well, having studied economics, and given the above facts, I see no problem with what is an accepted model in such obvious cases. Ask any unemployed software engineer if he thinks Indian outsourcing is a zero-sum game and I'm sure you'll get a "yes." He loses a job, India gains a job. It may be part of a larger game, but at that level of analysis, it is a zero-sum game and it is perfectly reasonable to view it as such. In terms of trade deficit, if China exports twice as much as it imports, it IS a zero sum game. They win, we lose. Make no mistake, trade deficits are -bad-.
The median income, that is the maximum of what the bottom 65 Million Americans earn, is $28,117 per year. That's $13.50 per hour. I'm not sure where you got your figures, since you didn't bother to provide a reference, so here's one of mine:
http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/article/0,,id=10288
Of that, 13 million make less than $5,121. So we have 78 million out of 130 million taxpaying, working adults who make less than your purported "average blue-collar wage."
Admittedly, it is quite difficult to really see the entire picture in a
I don't understand what you are trying to prove. He wasn't reviewing DVD players to see if they were good or not; he was explaining the behind-the-scenes aspect of these "Cheap-O" DVD players. Not to mention, someone trying to get to a store as soon as possible in order to get the cheapest player possible.
Or he could have looked at the box.
blog & fiction: jd87
Sorry. Should've used preview.
Not to mention, someone trying to get to a store as soon as possible in order to get the cheapest player possible probably wouldn't have time to do research.
blog & fiction: jd87
To put it simply: The new major exporters are not importers and are effectively sucking money out of everyone that imports their products and returning virtually nothing other than goods that were built with near-slave labor.
I'd heard that Belkin and to a lesser degree Linksys wasn't all that hot, and grabbed a netgear router and access point instead. The router ended up causing a DDOS attack on the University of Wisconsin NTP server, and an nmap scan showed a lot of fairly serious vulnerabilities. So did the AP. My Linksys 802.11-to-ethernet bridge works, but itself is rather vulnerable to attack. In the end, I had to make my own linux-based router to handle the firewall and network services that these cheap products failed to provide in a robust and secure manner.
Now I'm fairly geeky, and I can handle putting in some decent homebrew equipment (although I'd rather not shoulder the expense when this stuff was supposed to do this for me), but the average user is slapping in a bunch of equipment expecting it's going to protect his equipment when it can only do so by luck. Woe be to the average joe who installs his new 802.11 broadband router he got for christmas that ends up being an even greater present to his marginally more technically competent neighbors.
It feels like the Microsoft model of convenience at the expense of reliability and security has been adopted by D-Link, Netgear and Linksys to name a few. Plug it in and pray, and only the techincally superior can manage to actually secure it. It leaves us with an installed base of rather powerful networking equipment that is unsecured, vulnerable and just itching to be hijacked by anyone who cares to try. Over the next few years we're going to start seeing reports of home users getting compromised and causing major problems on the internet.
Before the stuff hits the landfill it's a far greater problem than after, as the impact of hijacked home and small office networks starts wreaking havoc on home users and everyone connected to them via broadband. If normal users can't make use of their PCs because everything everywhere is a hostile threat they can't defend themselves from, the utility of the internet becomes vanishingly small.
I'd suggest not holding your breath while waiting for that rebate cash to come rolling in.
Duh, eh?
Sorry about omitting my source for wage data. It is the Bureau of Labor Services National Compensation Survey July, 2002
DVD drives/ and so forth are inherently cheaper to manufacture anyway, this is mainly due to the lack of need for mechanical parts. A Typical DVD/CD Drive only needs a two or three motors, one to move the lens up and down, one to rotate the disk and save toploading devices, one to open and close the tray. Older consumer electronics such as tape drives/video recorders and most Camcorders require a phenomenal amount of precision made mechanical parts. Anyone who has ever dismantled a VCR will be able to tell you that.
I am sure there are plenty of malpractaces in the manufacturing business and no-body I know ever gets paid enough!. Everyone is undercutting everyone else.
It is the very nature of the digital revolution that is also contributing to driving the reduction in costs of manufacturing these items down. Generally speaking, the less moving parts something has, the cheaper it is going to be to manufacture. It is also the case that, the less moving parts something has, the more reliable it becomes.
In the case of DVD drives, most of the manufacturing infrastructure has been around for years, (in the form of CD Drive Manufacture) DVD drives just need different logic boards and lasers, so its not surprising that it has taken such a short time for the prices to come down.
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
Change will come, alright.
.. change will come with time. China and other asian countries has very high rates of growth, and growth brings wealth, also to the common man. The turn-of-the-century labor reforms, were spearheaded by the unions, as mentioned by serveral - but made possible by the rate of growth provided by the industrialisation.
Prices of consumer electronics and cars (to mention a few) will leap to inconcievable levels. Serveral products will disappear completely, all the while economies will collapse and people will starve to death in terrifying numbers all over eastern asia.
Ah, what a wonderful world...
This is how it works
This is the change of society, China is going through, 100 years 'behind schedule'. Just give them 20-30 years...
(And no, that doesn't help every 10 year old in sweatshops today, but you can't solve problems of that magnitude with a snap of fingers.)
Tho just because it's a mom and pop doesn't mean you'll *necessarily* get any better value for your money.
Example: A friend was shopping for a digital camera. She went to the local shop and was looking at an Olympus and a Pentax (which cost $100 more). The shop owner went on and on about how much better the Pentax was. A bit of independent research revealed that the Pentax was in fact a cheap HP camera body with a Pentax lens tacked on the front. Our conclusion was that the Pentax is a much more *profitable* item, because it sure as hell isn't any *better* than the Olympus. Hence the shop owner's enthusiasm for the Pentax.
Any time someone earns a direct commission on the merchandise (and if you're the shop owner, ALL of your income is effectively "direct commission"), there is incentive to push the most profitable item rather than the best item. Some mom and pop shops are honest enough to push the best item regardless, but many aren't, or can't afford to be when competing against the likes of Walmart.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Yeah, brilliant stuff. It's amazing how people simply don't (or won't) refer to the basic metrics to judge their perceptions. He does a great job of cutting out the bullshit to the point of "it quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and flies like a duck. It's a freakin' duck, already." I don't care if Chris Matthews puts it in heels and swears it's Charo. It's still a duck, damn it, and it's ugly one at that.
The amusing thing is that the US has historically encouraged countries to maintain fixed exchange rates. That's what Bretton Woods was all about. When China pegged the yuan to the dollar, Heiritage Foundation cheered.
China manipulates their labor force, not their currency. But the Bush administration doesn't like to talk about labor standards. It upsets Bush's contributor base.
That's ok. This is now a short term scenario. The robots are coming, and I have no idea what that will do to things.
What happens when robots are cheaper at assembly than slave labor? Well, one thing is that assembly lines relocate to reduce transportation costs. One thing is that the people who used to work on assembly lines are out of a job. But robots aren't *ONLY* going to work on assembly lines. The first household servents (roboticized vacuum cleaners) are already on the market. They're still toys, but they won't STAY toys. So janitors had better watch out. Nurses are already having some of their traditional duties taken by robots. Not many yet...but some. And they don't like it. Expect further penetration, and cost reduction, and reliability improvement. Where's it headed? I can't tell. I doubt that anyone can. But the human servitude on assembly lines is clearly in it's last generation.
This doesn't mean that new jobs will become available. Except, perhaps, as policeman, spy, or soldier.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
You can get the same thing in any competitive environment.
I work in electronics retail and am paid commission for my sales. Yeah, I have an incentive to push the higher end, higher priced products. But you can gain a person's trust (and subsequently their money) if you can speak intelligently on their problems or issues. Being able to chat shop with the guys who want the best sounding speakers for a specific setup and show the people who haven't a clue how to connect their DVD player have made me numerous sales since I've started working here.
But there's a problem with my situation: I get paid to sell, not know. And people abuse it constantly. You can bet those "mom&pop" stores feel the same abuse, too. People will come in, ask near every question on a product or product line, and as soon as they know all the parts they need to set up their home network (or what have you) they leave and go to a Wal*Mart or other super discount store and buy it all there.
I hate selling for my competitor, but at least it's better than clerking.
Oh, and I picked up a CyberHome DVD player last year. Only thing it's lacking is an optic out for surround sound speakers -- and it's been working fine so far. And I've only had one ever returned broken.
Please, do not read this sig
You point out a very serious issue coming down the pipe for capitalism. I have this wierd vision of millions of robots and computers producing all we could ever want and yet the world be filled with poor people who have no jobs.
This recent recession is the first step down that path. It appears that a recovery is in full swing and that the economy is set to do very well next year, but employment is still not exected to make much of a recovery. Much of this is because computer technology has allowed for the elimination of many jobs.
We can expect that with each new recession, the job losses will grow, and the recovery of jobs will become slower and slower even as the economy rebounds faster and faster. Ideally this means there should be more for all of us, but because of capitalism, it means there will be more for the rich, not more for all.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
The point is that to double in twenty years would require only a very modest level of growth. What is important is that manufacturing is becoming a smaller portion of our economy and, yes, I know what "real" means, thanks.
So what? In the six years between 1995 and 2001, we lost three million manufacturing jobs. Now, roughly speaking, if we assume that 18% of GNP represented and equal share of the population (a safe assumption), that's a loss of 7% of the manufacturing jobs, 22% of which were lost just in 2001, which is 9% higher than in the five years prior. 650,000 manufacturing jobs in one year is very much a "big deal."
And, no, since the 1940's this has NOT been happening consistently. See below:
http://www.bea.gov/bea/dn2/gpo.htm
From 1946 until 1970, manufacturing accounted a flat 26% of GDP. Between 1970 and 1987 it dropped gracefully to 19%, largely due to the Tokyo round of GATT talkst that ended in 1979. It did not begin to dip below 19% until 1990. After ten years, manufacturing dropped 5% of GDP to 14%. This is recent. This is primarily the result of the Uruguay round of GATT preceding the WTO, which ran from 1986 to 1994.
What is problematic is not the loss, but the acceleration. Because most of this is so recent, it is impossible to just say, oh yeah, it's like that. No, we have never had an economy like this and would be very irresponsible to think this is just a matter of course. Along with other issues of political economics, this should be tremendous cause for pause.
Of course, the same argument can be made for many things. I have the same feeling about American cars... you're likely to have a Ford or GM last 5 years.
For sure! The design is a little less "optimized" by finite element analysis than a typical Japanese car. Ever notice how a domestic car always feels heavier and more solid than a comparable Japanese model?
I blame scientific calculators, CAD and finite element analysis for the whole feeling of "they don't build 'em like they used to".
With a sliderule, you could only work to three or four significant figures. Every calculation, you'd have to round up forces and round down material strengths. As a result, your final design was always stronger and heavier than it "needed" to be.
With scientific calculators which hold 12+ sig figs in memory - CAD, Matlab, etc. even more - the design can be optimized more. Finite element analysis allows the design to be broken into millions of almost infinitely small points and the forces on each one of those points can be analyzed in minutes or hours with a computer, a job which would have taken years with a sliderule. Armed with this knowledge, the manufacturer can use (thinner, cheaper) 22 gauge sheetmetal instead of the 20 gauge you would have chosen with sliderule calculations. The net effect is that the car/washing machine/VCR/whatever is cheaper to manufacture and cheaper to ship. If it's a car, this also translates into better acceleration and better gas mileage.
But the problem is that the thinner sheetmetal and other heavily-optimized parts makes the design less forgiving of the real-world crap which occurs. A pair of jeans gets stuck under the washing machine's agitator. A videocassette gets jammed angrily into the VCR by a couple of kids who've just argued about what to watch. A guy takes his car to Home Depot and instructs the guy to put 600lbs of fertilizer bags into the trunk.
Real world abuse is not considered in the optimization process. And as a result, the machine breaks.
Now, before everyone floods me about how "my truck has been around for 40 years," let me pre-emptively defend myself: 1) trucks are a little bit different still,
Less so. Full-frame American-made rear-wheel-drive cars (like the Caprice Classic and the Crown Vic) are made of box-section steel frames while pickups are generally C-channel steel frames with comparable gauge steel. The drivetrains are generally exactly the same. Real SUVs (like the Durango/Grand Cherokee, Blazer, Explorer, etc. in contrast to the silly little toys like the RAV-4 and the CR-V) are built similarly. In fact, the only reason I'd buy an SUV is because they don't make the Caprice Classic anymore.
Having said that, if you take a wander through a wrecking yard, you might want to start looking at the cars there carefully. Take a very close look at the cars which don't have obvious accident damage - ie. the cars which were worn out. Wander around and note who built the car, the mileage and the year. Some of each will have had better owners than others. But if you take an average, you'll start to see a pattern emerging.
Whatever it is, they don't build 'em like they used to. A new VCR may sell for $59, and you might be tempted to buy the $200 model from the same brand, reasoning that it will last longer. Flip open the cassette door and point the MAG light in there before you buy it. Typically, it'll use the same mechanism as its cheaper cousin - you're spending the $141 extra for software which enables a few more features.
Washing machines? Mine's a 1954 Maytag. When the spin bearing in the bottom finally let go after 49 years of cleaning dirty underwear, I took apart the transmission to see if it was worth rebuilding. There was no appreciable wear to any of the gear surfaces, etc. So I spent a couple of hundred bucks on bearings, gaskets, hoses and seals. Most of them were perfectly fine when I swapped 'em. I could have spent $147 on the Roper
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Tires are a particular problem -- 270 million tires are discarded every year. Except for truck tires, there's no market for retreads any more. Extracting the metal and rubber for reuse is not economically feasible. You can't throw them in landfills, because they don't compress, and they also tend to "float" above the other trash, destroying the landfill cover. They make dandy fuel, but nobody wants to live next to a tire incinerator. About the only thing you can do with them is grind them up for building material, a market that doesn't use more than a small fraction of them. Which is why a billion tires are stored illegally, causing groundwater pollution and breeding mosquitoes in the trapped water.
Also, as with computers, cost and laziness prevent proper recyling of car stuff. When you have a mechanic change your oil and other fluids, he sends it off to a recycling service -- for which he pays a fee. But lots of people change their own fluids, and avoid the hassle and cost by pouring their waste down a storm drain, where it kills wildlife and screws up the water supply.
I have to go back to the original topic and mention another aspect of electronic gadgets -- batteries. All batteries, especially rechargables, count as hazardous waste, and need to be recycled accordingly. But how many consumers even know about this? And even the ones that do won't find a convenient place to dump their old batteries.
Yeah, fuck you.
What about mp3 players that are not priced as a bargain, but also carries pa rice - more exactly $99 for a new battery ?
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Roses are #FF0000, Violets are #0000FF, find / -name '*base*' |xargs chown -R us && mv zig greatjustice
The minimum wage...now only $5.15...is generally the wage we pay our manufacturing line workers
Ummm, I think that you are mistaken here. what manufacturing lines are you referring to? The UAW certainly makes more than minimum...In fact, according to the UAW they make $29.75 an hour, which is nearly $60k a year assuming the standard 2000 hour year.
I saw another link about GE unionized laborers making $21.45 an hour, but it was a PDF, so I declined to provide the link.
Even when i had a job working as a migrant farm worker in California (yes, I even have my registration card) I was making almost double the minimum wage.
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy!
Even if robots are used, factories won't automatically be located to reduce transportation costs: items for Americans will not be made in America. They will still be made in China and elsewhere because those countries don't have the environmental regulations that the U.S. has and therefore the products can be made much more cheaply even if the labor cost (robot operating cost?) is the same.
Wow. That is one of the most insightful posts I've read in a while. I'd mod you up if I ever got to moderate...
I'm not a journalist, but I play one on slashdot
Tell you what - buy only the most expensive electronics you can find. Make sure that all the workers are given a massage and nibbles of Brie to munch every 6 minutes.
My Apex DVD player still works great.
Nevermind that they're also trapped in their jobs typically because once you're over the age of 25 you can't get a new job because you're too old. If you look young you might pull it off though.
...we might as well do something about the problems is would cause. Seriously folks, we're not all gonna stop buying tommorow, any more than we're gonna start giving a fsck about Labor conditions in China. That is, until those labor conditions start to improve to our detriment. I've said it before, I'll say it again: The U.S.A is on the way to becomming a second world country (a few rich and lots of poor). Yeah, they'll still be a middle class to act as a buffer between the rich and poor and keep social unrest down (funny how all debate over capitalism has disapeared from mainstream media), but it'll shrink to it's absoulute allowable minimum. It's O.K. though, I'll be dead by the time it happens :).
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
"If there were a serious imbalance, speculators would be draining billions out of the Chinese government by buying yuan,"
Why? Being pegged to the dollar means that the purchase and sale price are fixed and will not change. There is no profit to be made unless/until Beijing removes the peg.
"while Beijing frantically had to tighten their money supply to keep the yuan up."
Huh? It's pegged, which means that the government does nothing to keep the yuan "up" or "down." Pegging the yuan to the dollar means our government works to keep it where it is.
"Bush's deficits have far more to do with it. The dollar has declined about 30% against the Euro in the last two years."
Um... declining value of the dollar compared to the euro is a Good Thing for exporters.
- Prisoner's dilemma, caused by
- Relativity of status, and exacerbated by
- Incomplete information.
Let me try to explain in more detail. I assume you are familiar with the prisoner's dilemma. It is the classic game theory example of locally optimal play that is globally non-optimal. In this case, what happens is that each individual worker's optimal strategy is to work in a factory, but the global optimal strategy is for no one to work in a factory at all.The reasons for this dilemma lie in the second and third reasons. Most farm workers are enticed to work in a factory by higher wages. By earning higher wages than their peers, the factory workers gain purchasing power and are better off. The problem is that purchasing power is relative, not absolute. Once everybody is a factory worker, no one has any extra purchasing power anymore, and everyone's economic status is the same as before except that they now have factory jobs instead of farm jobs.
Incomplete information is a separate but contributing factor that makes the problem worse: most workers are unaware of the true health costs of factory work, and most people (workers or not) tend to discount future costs too heavily anyway as part of human nature, so many people who should never be working in a factory in a perfect market end up working in factories anyway.
Don't forget, those are 'official' figures. The black market economy is that much over again. The world-wide trade is guns, drugs, people, etc. is absurdly huge. Those people have figured out that the easy way around the problems of economic competition is to simply produce something that is illegal and take your chances with the government. The flip side of the coin is that if you want to crush your competition, all you have to do is invade the place and blow it up. Those 2 factors, being usually unaccounted for, make most of economic analyses worthless (in general, i'm not picking on yours ;)).
Might I submit for your consideration that you've listed the wrong keys to US success?
Imperialism is not a long term predicator of national success. It's often rather a result of success; if you're doing well enough to feed a large army, you can engage in conquest. Conquest does not always impy large scale transfers of wealth, Cortez being the biggest exception. Conquered peoples can thrive: England after Rome, Hong Kong after England, Spain after the Moors. As evil as conquest may be, I don't think it's an end-all explanation for the gross disparities in wealth that exist around the world.
Slavery exists today in Mauritania and Sudan, and it hasn't helped those countries achieve any measure of success. Slavery is an inefficient, stagnant labor system that wastes talent and resources. American slavery was exploitative and hypocrytical, but it didn't guarantee economic success to the US.
The economist Thomas Sowell put it, "humans may disriminate retail, but nature discriminates wholesale." Geography is a big culprit in wealth disparity. And navigable waterways are a main predicator of wealth: Seattle, San Francisco, New York, London, Istanbul, Paris... the richest places in the world are those closest to major waterways. Africa's bane is that with twice the size of Europe, it still has less shoreline because of its lack of inlets and harbors.
"Give a man a fish and he will ask for tartar sauce and French fries!"
Boy, do I feel like a chump for getting new CV boots on my '92 civic...
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
No it isn't. All of the money involved makes it into the economy at some point and will be accounted for. Do you honestly think that the US black market economy is more than eleven trillion dollars? That's 440,000,000 kilograms of cocaine. about five pounds for every man woman and child in the country or about three pounds of heroin. That's a hell of a lot of smack, man.
At any rate, any formal analysis, economic or otherwise, uses (or should use) clearly defined parameters and known variables. Things like the fact that X% of Sudafed is used in the production of methamphetamines is of no use when all you're interested in is how much Sudafed was sold. Really, if you wanted to know how much money was involved in the market for marijuana, you could just total the fast-food receipts between midnight and 4am.
At the end of the day, money must change hands and that money is eventually counted.
Nice work.
Why do they go to work for factories instead of where they used to work?
Because most of the work they were doing is being done by machines now.
While it might have been necessary for lots of people to work the farms before, as machinery is deployed, fewer people are required.
The factories are producing items. Those items are being used to replace people in other jobs.
Somewhat OT, but unibody cars are more rigid than full-frame cars. Full-frame cars are notorious for twisting and flopping around under stress. High-powered full frame cars need the frame "boxed" if they have C-shaped rails, which they usually do; A boxed frame is just a semi-monocoque design, though, where the load is transmitted to its skin, or in other words, a bad parody of unibody.
This is why sports cars were amongst the earliest vehicles to go unibody. There are some exceptions, such as backbone-chassis cars like many Lotuses, but those vehicles are not exactly designed for crash safety, either. (Until you install a cage.) They're designed for minimum weight; YES, there is something lighter than a unibody.
Given a lack of collisions, and with all else equal, a unibody car will last longer than a full frame one because the full frame car is less rigid and simply has more places to fall apart. It's often considered desirable in trucks because a unibody does not offer significant weight savings over a full frame vehicle when it comes to a frame that rigid and full-frame is cheaper. Of course in a unibody car the frame of the car still exists, it's just been moved inside the unibody. Unibody is more expensive to manufacture, but in light-duty vehicles it saves so much weight that it's an essential part of modern automotive design.
Finally, China will eventually wake up and have environmental laws, when the people can afford it. Right now most of them are worried about subsistence.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Then at your annual safety inspection
What's this? Here in California, we have bi-annual smog checks, but that's it... they make sure your emissions system is working perfectly, but nothing else. To re-register your car every year, you just mail them a check.
Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
From what I have seen of the fashion production process, only three things separate expensive clothing from cheap clothing: (a) inexpensive fabric, (b) quick & easy stitching, and (c) consumer perception. Conservatively speaking, a piece of clothing is only worth 5% of the ticket price.
Third-world garment factories are all freelance. The factory that produced Gucci in 2003 can revamp to produce Target brand clothing in 2004. The same workers and the same equipment are used to make both.
===============
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
They still make $1000 VCRs you know. Even more expensive ones if you like. They are professional level units that you see in editing studios and broadcast locations. Produce a hell of a picture for being VHS.
Same goes for just about all electronics. Don't buy the crappy no-name integrated amp/reciever. Go buy a seperate pro level preamp and amplifier. HAve a look at the warantee and construction. For example companies like Halfer and Rotel warentee their pro stuff for 5 years, parts and labour. Halfer provides you with a complete circut diagram and parts number guide so you may repair it yourself or have it done professionally when it's out of warentee. They also sound a hell of a lot better than a cheapie.
Thing is, you pay the price for this. A Hafler P1500 is generally going to run you around $400 and it's a 2 channel amp, at 75 watts/side. Well for $400 you can get an integrated unit that has full surround decoding and output capabilities.
So take your pick, do you want quality or do you want cheap? Things ARE built "like they used to be" if you mean well built and warenteed. You'd just pay for them like you used to. You can't have the cheap pricing and the great construction.
This is even true with computers, though to a bit lesser degree. You can buy reliable, gaurenteed systems form IBM or EMC or Sun that really will go and work for 20 years with essentially no downtime.
But for all this, you can't bitch about the price. Quality used to cost money, and it still does. You just now have the option to not spend the money and get less quality as a result.
Reminds me of that time I got a Ford Fiesta and it didn't have air-conditioning or a CD player! Can you imagine how pissed I was? I mean, I should be able to walk onto a car lot, point at the cheapest model, pick the color I want and be on my way with all the options I want.
my sig's at the bottom of the page.
>Since 1983, GDP in real terms has only increased by about 18%
Odd - a table I google up says US GDP in 1983 was about $5.5Trillion, vs about $10Trillion today. That's an 82% gain, not 18%.
>production is MOVING not dramatically INCREASING.
While developed nations like the US saw about 2.5x increase in GDP from 1970-2002, China and other rapidly developing nations saw about 9x increase. Doesn't sound like a zero-sum game to me.
In case you're wondering, no, the less developed nations did not pay the price - generally their GDPs (only) about doubled from 1970 to 2002, and were pretty much insignificant compared to the GDPs of the developed and developing nations.
Manufacturing output in the United States has doubled in the last twenty years. See this.
I saw it. Those weren't per-capita numbers, so they're not comparable to the previous poster's info. Here's the per-capita data:
1970: Exports $787.01; Manufacturing GDP not listed
1980: Exports $1765.65 (Wow, a 124% increase!); Manufacturing GDP $3531.29
1990: Exports $1708.44 (a 3% decrease); Manufacturing GDP $4421.84 (a 25% increase)
2000: Exports $2060.96 (a 20% increase); Manufacturing GDP $5685.41 (a 28.5% increase)
So the increases are heartening, except that during the same time period, the gap between the top quintile and the bottom quintile in income in the US grew. So the gains are concentrated with the wealthiest individuals, and those at the bottom actually lost ground.
Still, at no time in the past 20 years have we anything like doubled our on a per-capita basis. Manufacturing GDP went up 61% from 1980 to 2000, and exports went up only 17%. And, if we compared the US data to the same data for other countries, we'd probably find that globally, we're falling behind.
This is completely bogus zero-sum economics. It has no correspondence to reality.
Except that the numbers come from reality. Maybe you'd like to explain what you mean a little more? If production moving to China and India doesn't come *from* somewhere, is there some way the magic production fairies can be manufactured and bottled here in the US and sold for a profit overseas?
What are you talking about? Fewer than 5% of adult full-time workers earn minimum wage. The average blue-collar wage is $14.51/hour. For the category "machine operators, assembers, and inspectors", the average is $12.94/hour. The lowest wage occupation in this category is "laundering and dry cleaning machine operators", who still average $8.49/hour. So your comment about the minimum wage has zero relevance.
Where are your numbers from? Blue-collar traditionally doesn't include the fastest-growing segment of the working world... so-called "pink collar" or service-industry jobs. Those blue-collar workers earning an average of $14.51/hour are a shrinking population. The country's (the world's?) largest employer is Wal-Mart, not Ford. And I notice that you qualify that with "full-time," so the increasing trend toward hiring more part-time workers to avoid paying benefits conveniently ignores a lot of people. The underemployment rate is becoming as big a problem as the unemployment rate. (BTW, I don't suppose these figures include people who work two jobs at minimum wage for a total of 40 hours or more per week?)
Besides which, to show just how out-of-whack the minimum wage is, let's look at the numbers you gave:
$14.51/hour: $30,180.80/year, at full-time employment for the whole year. This isn't too bad. You can live on this in most parts of the country, though in many you wouldn't want to try to support a whole family on it.
$12.94/hour: $26,915.20/year. Still doing all right, not that much lower.
Looks like the current median home price in the US is about $160,000. With a 10% down payment (not sure how you save up more than half your annual salary for a home, but I'm being generous here) and a 5% interest rate, which is pretty doable these days, on a 30-year fixed mortgage you're paying $773/month for your home. Ok, that's about a third of your $12.94/hour wage, which is decent.
Now let's look at that $8.49/hour person. Coincidentally, $8.50/hour is the average wage for Wal-Mart employees... which possibly includes the executives, but almost certainly includes the store managers. That person is making $17,659.20, or about $1,471.60 a month. They would be paying more than half their gross pay to try to buy a home, so they're renting, which means no wealth accumulation. They can't afford the typically $150/month for an individual health plan (much less the $400 or so for a family plan), so we're paying for them to visit the emergenc
Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
Of COURSE if you go to something like the UAW you are going to get higher wages. Wages vary greatly between SIC codes geographic locations and individual circumstances. A highly entrenched union like UAW obviously is going to have higher wages. Christ.
According to the BLS, the average wage across all professions is $17.18. That's Bill Gates down to the migrant farm worker. The average for "blue collar" workers is currently about $8.10, which includes everything from 747 engine mechanics to underwater demolition and strawberry picking. If $8.10 is the AVERAGE and you have a bevy of "blue collar" professions paying $50-60k/year in the same box, a huge number of people must be making less than $8.10. Besides, realize that the specific figures from the BLS as delineated by SIC code are themselves averages. So, if it says some position makes "$7" it is highly likely that given three employees, you have a possible range of $5-9, although given a large sample the range could be larger.
An example would be pulling up the wages for tipped employees in the District of Columbia. That figure gets averaged over Maryland and Virginia so it is reported that they earn $7/hour. The statutory wage is $2.33 in DC, but that data is not available in th BLS statistics. Do they make it up in tips? Hell, to talk to tipped employees around here, you'd think they were making $30/hr, unfortunately when the rent check bounces, one loses that impression rather quickly.
He seems quite happy to try to export US labour laws into China but I imagine there would be a bit of a cry from him if Europeans tried to export EU labour laws to the US
You wouldn't hear any cry from ME about exporting European labor law to the US. Their laws are BETTER than ours. Their workers better protected and have better conditions. I think that would be a smashing idea. As a matter of fact, I would like to see FRENCH labor laws become global laws. Shorter work week for EVERYONE. Happier lives from less stress and guaranteed time off. Sign us up!
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
I won't comment on your theory, but your GDP numbers are just plain wrong. The US accounts for about one-third of global GDP, not 10% as you suggest. Global GDP per capita is thus around $5000, nowhere near the $18k you suggest. And since 1995, the US has accounted for fully 60% of world GDP growth. The US economy is still the main engine for world growth. I'm not saying anything about how fair or equitable or sustainable that American economic growth has been. And it's good that you're trying to raise some sort of alarm about the dangers of race-to-the-bottom off-shoring. But if you use numbers so absurdly detached from reality as yours, no one will take any argument you make seriously.
Sources are also your friend.
Source: World Bank
Since this [the minimum wage of $5.15] is generally the wage we pay our manufacturing line workers
On what planet? The average US manufacturing wage is more like $14-15. In some states (e.g. Michigan) it is as high as $20, and even the lowest state average (South Carolina) is over $11.
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
"Look who didn't read the article."
'You must be new here'
At least there's no danger of that happening to some of the replies.
Does your slashdot nickname, "dandelion_wine", come from the book or from the Blackmore's Night song?
The shareholder is always right.
Pardon, but I have referenced my sources. If as you suggest, the US GPD is a third of world GDP, then the fact that Germany's GDP alone is one fifth of the US would seem rather odd indeed.
b ook/
:$10.45T
All numbers 2002 US$ from cia.gov
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fact
Germany: $2.16T
Frace : $1.55T
UK : $1.52T
China : $5.98T
USA
Japan : $3.65T
India : $2.66T
Russia : $1.40T
Hey, look, the US is already only 1/3 of those countries and we've left out over 180 countries. You know, little ones like Canada, Mexico, Brazil, the entire Middle East, all of Africa and 3/4 of Europe.
DO go check your own numbers before you make basless accusations about mine. I claim no infallibility, but your math is far shy of any basis in reality. I'll studiously avoid proceding to attack any arguments you've made on such a foundation in bullshit.
It seems from the article that the "hidden costs" that apply to the cheap models also apply to the expensive ones. The expensive ones are even manufactured in the same factories. So, even if one were to buy an expensive model, that extra money would just go into the pocket of the person owning the expensive label and "slave labor" would continue in China. Also, we all know that Walmart is never going to pay their employees better.
In the end, the only ones that cost more are the ones with the higher price tag. Unless everyone buys expensive ones exclusively. Even then, it is more likely that such a practice will just lead the electronics companies to spend more money on trademark litigation in order to milk their brands for all they are worth.
Low profit margins are a sign of a healthy capitalist market (as opposed to an unhealthy monopolist market) and strong competition.
All data is speech. All speech is Free.
The capacitors in the power supply of my Apex AD800 DVD player exploded after barely a year and a half of
not particularly heavy usage. Seems Apex uses very low quality capacitors.
Not only as museum pieces, but for daily use:
Classicappliances.com
They got sick of breakdowns.
American cars, at least the basic body and frame, used to last as long as no rust appeared on the car. Unfortunately, the components inside them did not. The imports gave us simple, precise craftsmanship that worked up until a certain time, which you did point out. Unfortunately for GM, Ford, and what used to be Chrysler, people found out about these cars and decided to buy them once the repairs on their current vehicle exceeded the monthly payment on a new CVCC. It's taken the Big Two 25 years to make every component on the car last the LIFE of the car. That's all people want now. Nobody wants to rebuild a transmission in a car that's got torn upholstery, mall rash, and looks like a ten-year-old Accord.
The funny thing is, Hondas and Toyotas aren't lasting upwards of 15 years anymore, at least in big numbers. Five, maybe six years, tops. The cars are more bloated and complex than the old CVCCs ever were. But American cars are lasting longer in bigger numbers than ever. Especially the ones from 1992-94.
But soon it will be the Koreans that will beat the Japanese with 80% lights-out plants and barely anyone to support for retirement. The economies of scale will shift and GM will buy out Honda or Toyota's American divisions, maybe both, and Saturn, Buick, and Chevy cars will fade away.
The article made some strange assumptions.
strangest of all being that Walmart would be paying it's staff more if not for the cheap electronics. (as opposed to loss leader sales in general)
mom and pop electronics stores that only sell commodity items shouldn't overly concern anyone but themselves.
I got a DVD player free just last week.
It was thrown in with a 5.1 receiver unit and speakers which, on the other hand, cost me $1,500.
Hurrah for commoditisation!
The speakers were hand made by skilled people in Sydney, Australia being paid real money (as an australian that's buying locally) the totally reproducable DVD player was made by those willing to do it.
these are good times, maybe the best of times.
but we're going to have to do work others can't if we don't want to be at the bottom of the food chain, no more free rides.
For the record the sound is simply incredible, the speakers were worth every penny.
'There is a Light that never goes out.'
Carts before horses even.. whoops.
'There is a Light that never goes out.'
Your comments on the reason for the abolition of the six day work week in Japan and your declaration that Japanese citizens harbor a desire to work seven days a week are ludicrous. What is your basis for such ridiculous assertions?
Your comments on unions not being an issue when during boom times is equally absurd. Unions came into existence during the boom times of the early industrial revolution because of slave wages, poor working conditions, etc.
They're also enriching the stockholders of those companies, most of whom are rich. In the words of the Guinness Cartoon Guys in the new TV spots, Brilliant!
beware the jabberwock, my son! the jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
beware the jabberwock, my son! the jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
This is quite interesting - World Bank lists the world GDP at 32.2 trillion, while the CIA site gives a figure of 49 trillion. They agree (roughly) on the US GDP (10.4 trillion), but they disagree enormously for eg China (1.2 trillion for World Bank, nearly 6 trillion for CIA).
So if you go by the World Bank figures, the US is about 32% of world GDP, but going by the CIA figures, the US is 21% of world GDP (I don't know where 10% came from). Who's right?
hey dummy. don't you buy things? aren't you a consumer? maybe importing cheap things is good. i belive that north america can deal with the lose of some manufacturing jobs by making up for it in other sectors.
so go fuck yourself, you don't have all the answers. you don't even know the questions.
We have a 'big idea' culture. That's what the US creates - new ideas technologies etc. We suck at everything else.
Low cost - China et al.
Attention to details - Europe
Quality - Japan
As industries and thecnologies mature the focus shifts from the idea to features quality and cost.
For slightly more than the cost of two DVD movies, I figure it's worth having a spare DVD player around the house
GO OUTSIDE!
Fast Federal Court and I.T.C. updates
> Ssssshhhh! Just dont tell SCO
I can't wait for SCO to try extracting extortion money from people who already own DVD players.
- DeCSS was developed under Linux
- Linux is a derivative of UNIX
- DeCSS understands CSS, so it must be a derivative
- Hence all devices using CSS are UNIX derivatives
- All DVD players require a $699 UNIX license
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
I'm not all that sure this is a guaranteed recipe for the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. The rich will spend money and try to get the best deal. In so doing, wealth flows to some poor locale. The idea of moving to the next 3rd-world hell-hole only works until all the hell-holes are stuffed full of dollars. (Maybe there's an infinite supply of 3rd world hell-holes, I don't know.)
I see this as a great "levelling" of rich and poor countries. The only way you can avoid the levelling is to create artificial barriers to international trade. But protectionism hasn't been very popular for the last half-century.
Since I'm a software engineer I don't like to hear a lot of talk about programming jobs going to 3rd-world locales. But I won't be able to DO anything about it, so I might as well enjoy my $49 DVD-player, look forward to my $149 DVD-recorder and tell my kids to pursue a less portable profession.
Cars are also designed for different things now. They are designed to crumple now in collisions, so the car takes the energy that would otherwise be doing awful things to your neck in a relatively low speed collisions. With the event of airbags hospitals are seeing injuries they didn't see before, simply because those sort of injuries were usually on people with fatal head injuries.
CV joints are cheap - that's just stupid. If cars are getting junked after 6 years in the area you are in then people are spending way too much on new cars. There's still Datsun 120Y cars around, and if someting that poorly made is still around now, the far more relaible cheap cars should last a few years.I can't really comment on American cars, the only ones around here are for enthusiasts - things with lots of fins, wood panelling on the side or F100 trucks. Outside the USA, if you want something for a decent price, you buy asian cars, and if you want extra quality you get something from europe - but if you get something from the USA you get the price without the quality. Fuel is cheap in the USA, which has encouraged a lot of designs that are very expensive to run outside of the USA, so why get a big chunky car when you can get a Mercedes for for less extra than you would pay for the difference in a years fuel?
Who says the more expensive players aren't the same machine, made in the same factory, with a Sony sticker on the cover.
What a load of bollocks.
Dear Lowly Chinese Worker,
Sorry about the appalling conditions you work in, and the crap wages, lack of unionisation and general squalor. I'm not going to do squat about it, but please be assured that I am aware of your plight and will endeavour to appall my fellow man with tales of your suffering at every dinner party I attend.
By the way, the DVD player works great but when you get a minute, could you add S-Video output? It shouldn't cost much.
Regards,
Western Consumer
Ade_
/
Big Bubbles (no troubles) - what sucks, who sucks and you suck
I have an 8 year old Trinitron that's still my favorite monitor ever, but I'm having a problem with it. The anti-reflective coating isn't nearly as durable as the glass, and it's gettins so worn and scratched the image quality is really going to shit. I can deal with a shiny monitor, so I'm wondering how to strip off the AR coating without damaging the glass. I know 0000 steel wool cleans glass, I'm curious if that will strip off the AR without scuffing the glass itself. If not, would a light buffing with cerium oxide work? I know it's used to shape and polish lenses; I'm wondering if that might not take too much glass off and distort the image though.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
According to the BLS, the average wage across all professions is $17.18. That's Bill Gates down to the migrant farm worker. The average for "blue collar" workers is currently about $8.10...
Hmmm...I went to the BLS and looked up the information myself, and it doesn't support your assertion.
In fact, the national average for Parking Lot Attendants was $8.26, and the overall blue-collar average was $14.51, pulled lower by 'floor helpers' and 'laborers' who averaged $10.98.
What year were you looking at data for?
And Globalization can have no effect that I can imagine on waitstaff who work for tips...It would be pretty damn hard to outsource the delivery of my plate of dinner from the kitchen to a foriegn country.
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy!
It's how their measured. World Bank calculates GDP in local currency and then converts to US dollars using that year's average exchange rate. CIA uses purchasing power parity (PPP), which basically creates a new currency exchange rate based on the relative prices of similar goods in the two countries. The exchange rate probably underestimates China's GDP, since there's a general consensus that the yuan is undervalued vs. the US dollar. PPP underestimates the US's GDP, since everything is more expensive here than in China, but that is all factored out. PPP is probably better for comparing standard of living, but not for judging the total capacity of the economy. A hamburger is a hamburger, but you could import more BMWs with what the US hamburger cost than you could with what the China hamburger cost.