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China Releases Cyber Dissident
Ridgelift writes "Reuters UK has the story on the release of three 'cyber dissidents' just one week before a trip by visit by Premier Wen Jiabao to the United States. One of the dissidents, 23-year-old Liu Di, aka the 'Stainless Steel Mouse,' had been detained since November 2002. She wrote political satire about the ruling Communist Party and posted messages in Internet chatrooms calling for the release of online dissidents. She was never formally charged, but kept at Qincheng Prison for over a year."
what a complete waste of an fp - you should be ashamed. you could have at least had something paste-ready. next time, try harder.
How is it that some people get cool nicknames, like "the Stainless Steel Mouse" and "Iceman" and "Dozer." The best I could ever manage was Lunchbox...
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!
This seems pretty high-profile and has piqued my interest; anyone have a link (ideally translated) to the "Political Satire" that was good enough to land this young woman in prison for a year?
RD
It's only a few cases like this, and everyone knows they're in prison.
OTOH, what good is served when chaps like RMS, Linus, Bruce, ESR etc. are all out in the open, yet can't achieve anything useful with just dissidence? To top it, we have some famous chaps from SCO on this side of the law, spouting their "Intellectual Property" claims!
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
About time. Maybe Im just too used to freedom of speech, but it makes me mad when other countries but people in prison for saying anything even remotely against the government.
Never formally charged! That's outrageous! When will those Chicoms desist from such tyrannical and autocratic practices and embrace democracy, a proper Bill of Rights and the rule of law like we have here in the good ol' US of A.
"Mitnick was held without bail for over two years before sentencing: he has said that he set some kind of United States record by being held for four and a half years without a bail hearing, while also held in solitary confinement for eight months 'in order to prevent a possible nuclear strike being initiated by me from a prison payphone'."
Kevin_Mitnick
So Qincheng is the Chinese word for Guantanamo, then? Good to know.
Money for nothing, pix for free
I think your find /. flushed long ago, but like any well endowed turd, there where floaters that escaped, but dont worry /. will be flushed again and soon all will be rid off.
I'll never tell!
Tee Hee
Michael is the floater that just won't go down.
I wish I could be a cyber dissident. Someplace to live and free food too, for a whole year!
If only the US was so famously oppressive, instead of being so negligently oppressive.
She was never formally charged, but kept at Qincheng Prison for over a year."
Just like the Guantanamo Bay prisoners?
A blog like any other.
Horses are some of the best pussy I have ever tried! And I have tried plenty of PEOPLE & ANIMALS!
Ronald McRaygun and I want YOU in my McArmy. McNuclear, McDeath, and McWar!!1
I know. We have so many people in prison because they spoke against democracy. The reason we had to start using the death penalty is because all the prisons were full with these people.
Mumia deserves to die for his crimes.
...if not for the fact that it's probably just a PR move. It seems like every time the U.S. has something to do with China, human rights becomes the issue of the day. By releasing a couple of dissidents, China can say "Look, we respect human rights." It rings very hollow.
A full grown stallion can ejaculate about one cup ( 8 ounces ) of semen. It will take quite a few spurts to accomplish this.
After the horse has entered and reaches a climax the head swells (though it is more spongy then hard) into a fist sized mass as he ejacultates. It is thought that this serves as a plug to force the semen deep into the mare rather then allowing it to leak out.
from the article:
"Liu was bailed out on Friday afternoon, the centre said, saying the move amounted to freeing her because political detainees are rarely, if ever, released on bail."
While China does not typically release political detainees, they are only releasing her on bail. They could still pick her up for the same thing some time later, or decide to officially charge her. It is also important to note that they convicted one of the 4 involved. This situation is far from being over.
Before we get all high and mighty, and conclude that we in the United States are so much better, superior, or luckier, remember about the prisoners the US is holding RIGHT NOW in Guantanamo Bay.
These prisoners of the US Government were held for a year or more.
Let's clean up our own act before we get all high and mighty about the Chinese, heh?
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
mod this piece of shit down
Horses are somewhat different from other animals in the way their cock head works. When a horse is fully erect and excited and ready to mount, his cock head is somewhat pointed and not as thick as might be normally observed.
Imagine going to jail for such a comment! ROTFLMAO!!!
Just think, people in the U.S. complain about getting fired for saying something work-related (and probably negative) in a personal blog, but in China you might get thrown in jail for a year or more without ever being charged. Things may not be perfect in America, but they sure could be a lot worse... For instance, imagine most /. posters going to jail for speaking freely in a public forum.
Yeah, that's all well and good that they let her go and all, but what about the ones they haven't released? The ones nobody knows of, or remembers? What about the people the Chinese government has abandoned over the years, all the young girls sent off to learn the joys of Communism in the 40's, then abandoned to their fates when they decided the project sucked? How about the way women are viewed as third-class citizens, slightly above slaves, by both government and society? It's a worthless gesture on their part. Yes, they're so cool, ignore the fact that they hate us, and our wonderful Republic. Ignore the fact that they produce many of our import goods, and that every dollar we give them is another dollar they put towards bringing us down. Remember folks, America is the Evil Empire because we promote trade and capitalism. We don't hold our women down, like the Muslims and Chinese do (anymore). We have abundant natural resources under our soil, but if we tap them, we're greedy bastards hell-bent on the destruction of the environment. We are infidels, heretics, heathens, and our love of freedom is a threat to the rest of the world. And to make matters worse, every day more of our own citizens side with those who would see us fall. Other nations can feel pride for being born in their country, but don't you dare, because if you do, you're an evil capitalist bastard who takes perverse sexual pleasure in the oppression you force upon the rest of the world. The only reason those countries hate us is because we have the basic freedoms they lack, and their governments realize this. They encourage their citizens to hate us because if they would stop to think, they would realize that they themselves want these freedoms. This is very dangerous to the control a dictator exerts over his subjects. I apologize for turning this into a political rant, and I know it's all basically flamebait, but this stuff gets me pretty worked up. But anyway, we've worked very hard to become the great country we are today, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let some jealous asshole take that from me simply because he's pissed that I have more than he does.
"I like you, but I wouldn't want to see you working with subatomic particles."
Cause we all know that no one innocent was ever held in Guantanamo, right?
A full grown stallion can ejaculate about one cup ( 8 ounces ) of semen. It will take quite a few spurts to accomplish this. Each time his tail will raise and lower in a brief flick.
When I hear about things like this it reminds of just how unusual and fragile freedom is in the world. It also makes me fearful because so few people in America are dedicated to the preservation of freedom. Instead they're either disinterested in what goes on or dedicated to furthering some ill-concieved and short sighted political agenda that they usually don't even understand. The rights and freedoms this country was founded upon are far more important to our collective future than red-herring issues like abortion. The abortion debate iself is little more than a battle-front in the cultural wars between the loony left and the religious right. As long as there are unwanted children being conceived abortion will exist regardless of whether it is legal or not. Arguing about something that cannot be stopped is futile and even counterproductive. Its like arguing about how people should wipe their asses. Its impossible to force anyone to follow whatever conclusions are reached, so why argue about it? Laws against abortion will work about as well as laws against Marijuana or Alcohol. Marijuana can be easily grown, alcohol can be easily fermented and distilled, and an abortion is only a coat-hanger away. The laws regarding all are in reality little more than proclamations of what the government would prefer you do. People get all worked up over abortion because it is a stand-in for all the other issues that don't get argued about directly. Ideological points that have been disproven or discredited but which the left or right doesn't want to let go of. It doesn't suprise me that so many people have forsaken the political process. If the choice is between a closet communist and a someone who is either a theocrat or owned by a bunch of fat-cats, there isn't really any way to make a good choice. So people don't vote and in doing so forfeit the very power that MUST be held by the people for democracy to truly exist. Every time a person disinvolves themselves from the political process they're letting the fate of this country be determined by idiots and ideologues. People who are either stupid or crazy or both.
If things keep going like this then America is doomed to die from collapse from within. Unfortunately for all our "friends" in other places who would like to see that happen, America's collapse will likely pull them in with it, or at least place them upon the very precipice of collapse just like the collapse of Rome sent all of Western Europe into the dark ages, only this time on a global scale.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
While the leftist media tries to make everyone believe that China is post-Communist because of a little economic freedom, this story just proves they are still just as repressive as ever. China has again and still, been ranked as not free by Freedom House. While Taiwan has been ranked as the second most free country in Asia along with South Korea and just behind Japan. It is obvious that Taiwan should be supported by the rest of the free peoples of the world and the UN, instead of kowtowing to the Communists just because of their large markets and massive armies.
Too lazy to create a sig...
As the article and summary both mention, the release comes a week before the Premiere's visit to the US. An article in Der Spiegel claims, however, that the release was primarily motivated by the visit of German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder.
An AP version of the story mentions Schroeders visit (which the Reuters story linked to by the summary does not), but does not go as far as claiming as Der Spiegel does that "[the release] is a gift for Schroeder" (my translation). That particular quote is attributed to Frank Lu of the Information Center for Democracy and Human Rights, a Hong Kong-based watchdog group that is a primary source for both the AP and Spiegel articles.
Another political prisoner, held without charges, access to lawyers, or consular staff was recently released by his captors too.
You can't think of a better way to govern that many people than an authoritarian regime with no elections that proclaims itself to be the "People's Government" and has imprisoned and murdered tens of millions of people for disagreeing?
Not a very deep thinker are you? The US and EU combined are about half the population of China. Do you mean to say that if our populations were simply to double, our best option would be to abandon democracy, rule of law, elections, free markets, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc., and demonstrate that anyone who disagreed would end up dead? That's really the best you can come up with?
You sound like a product of Chinese (re)education.
Of course, you could argue that we can do it because we don't have to have one government controlling all of those people. We have several governments, each covering only a portion of those people, each subject to independent replacement every election day.
Of course China doesn't have to do it all with one government either. The Tibetans, Uighurs, Taiwanese, Hong Kongese...would love to take some of the "burden" off those poor overworked murderers in Beijing. But Beijing is just like you. They can't think of a better way for them to keep governing than by doing what they're doing, either.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
Thats China, I'm from the USA. I suppose people who read slashdot from China might care but in that case they'd most likely be sent to jail for reading this site. So why do we focus so much on civil rights in China when we have so many civil rights issues in the USA to focus on?
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
I have had mare that welcomed me...pushed back every time I shoved, and contracted her cunt to milk my cock dry. Horses are some of the best pussy I have ever tried! And I have tried plenty of PEOPLE & ANIMALS!
- the US
- is never right about anything it does,
- Europe calls it a "crime against humanity" when the US executes 71 people in 2002
- groups like our faithful slashdot posters and Amnesty International constantly bitch and whine about how evil the US is, and
- basically ALL the problems of the world are America's fault
and,- China (in recent times)
- builds the great firewall of China,
- suppresses free speech,
- executes 1,000+ people in 2002 (over 14x the US total)
- conquers countries and actually FORMALLY integrates them into China,
- moves people in forced migrations, and
- commits various other human right abuses,
and the our "right-thinking left-wing friends" never say shit about it?I realize anti-Americanism is popular, but ...
Yeah, laugh it up, fun-boy. And while you do, realize that it's only because of the freedoms your government has granted you that you can make such comments withou fear of serious retribution. Of course, it's also thanks to these freedoms that I can tell you that I think you are an idiot jack-ass with nothing better to do than piss people off. I also believe that the reason you do so is because you have only the base minimum I.Q. required to use a computer (ergo, that of a chimpanzee) and you use such comments as a method to release your frustrations at being so stupid. Sadly, your simian-like intelligence cannot grasp any concept other than your base sexual urges, and certainly not the vocabulary required to effectively communicate to others your immense angst at being nothing more than a pathetic little spider monkey jerking off 20 hours a day and then not understanding why your dick hurts.
"I like you, but I wouldn't want to see you working with subatomic particles."
A full grown stallion can ejaculate about one cup ( 8 ounces ) of semen. It will take quite a few spurts to accomplish this. Each time his tail will raise and lower in a brief flick.
I notice people are willing to fight for freedom for the Iraqis, for the Chinese, for every country imagineable but in the USA we want a police state to protect ourselves from the terrorists? I'm confused, someone please explain this to me. We pass the patriot act, and make it possible to toss anyone in prison who even resembles a terrorist with no trial, nothing. I'd be worried about the USA.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
This is kinda serious, dont you think? Howw much can you trust a land (any land) that puts a person in prision without a hearing?
Mares can be quite satisfactory for the average well endowed male. If you are somewhat less developed you might find better pleasure with a pony or Miniature Horse.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1106/p01s04-woap.htm l
On CNN Liu Di (Stainless steel mouse) is 27, yet on reuters she's 23 ... maybe she's been locked away for 5 years???
Wondering if anyone knows anything about this ...
or even Guantanamo Bay... last week in Miami there were hundreds of people locked up for protesting at the anti-FTAA demonstrations, many still there struggling for bail money.
When people came to protest at the jail, the police simply proceeded to arrest the protestors again to get them out of the way.
If you want an example of a "police state" just look at the USA right now, you don't need to look as far as China.
more arrests and jail info at
http://www.ftaaimc.org/ and http://www.stopftaa.org
Actually, I agree with him completely. However, since you seem to be so anti-American, please don't ever come here. If you're in America already, I would like it if you'd leave, since you seem to hate is to much. Also, you could at least have the balls to post as a semi-real person instead of as an AC.
"I like you, but I wouldn't want to see you working with subatomic particles."
the only two I ever got were billygoat and pencildick.
This space available.
It's sarcasm, dammit.
Republican hawks believe that using Guantanamo Bay "sends a message of strength." They make no secret that they want to continually push the boundaries of acceptable U.S. military behavior in many respects, from ignoring international laws (remember, Reagan's Navy mined Nicraguan harbors) to the occasional unilateral invasion now and then (Granada, Panama, Lybia, Iraq, etc.), and to make a big show of it. In doing so, they lower the acceptable standards of behavior of the U.S. so they can get away with more when it serves their purposes.
Some of us in the U.S. consider that kind of thing dispicable and against everything this country was founded to protect, but most people don't learn enough to care either way.
Japan, up until the past year, was more-or-less the opposite, where politicians could score points by arbitrarily constraining the JDF in some abstract way.
Why the fuck are the moderators marking down posts like this as trolls?
What are you a bunch of fucking dittoheads? This is a legitimate comment!
This space available.
Even the Reuters article gets around to mentioning that, basically, the Chinese government has chosen to punish some else in place of a sympathetic college girl (Liu Di):
Although the Reuter's article does not explain what Liu Di was being punished for, the Washington Post article mentioned that Liu Di's misdeeds included defending another democratic activist: She also wrote essays pressing for the release of Huang Qi, a businessman who was arrested in 2000 for running an Internet site that carried items about the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown and was sentenced to five years in prison for subversion.
Liu Di went to jail, in part, for trying to get Huang Qi freed. Now Luo Changfu has gone to jail to get Liu freed. So, it appears that the Chinese government is insuring that some Chinese partiot will languish in prison over this. They're just willing to be flexible about which one.
Slashdot editors: I'd appreciate it if you'd wipe the records of the IP address from which this post originated, as I travel in China and am pretty nervous about posting this.
Dont listen to her lies! She wasnt a prisoner, she was just visiting!
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
Regards,
Jdif
Let's overcome our weakness.
No, because they aren't U.S. citizens, but in this case, she is a citizen of PRC. AFAIK, U.S. does not hold it's own citizens in Guantanamo Bay.
That said, it is not that I accept the treatment of prisoners held in Guantanamo Bay - I definitely don't, and I'm not U.S. citizen either.
“Wait for Hurd if you want something real” –Linus
Jesus, man, put a paragraph break or two in there somewhere, you're hurting the eyes of all us chimps.
And learn to fucking write before you go insulting people's intelligence.
Why is that? Well, reasons depend on the country, I guess. Lenin was one such dissident in 1900's, and see what he did when he got the power... examples are plentiful. Today ex-dissidents in Russia are accused of treason, of selling out, of helping to steal national wealth...
This is not unique to Russia in any way. Look at Georgia, for example. They got Gamsakhurdia - and he failed miserably. They replaced him with Shevardnadze - and guess what, he failed miserably. They replaced him with ${don't know yet} and he will fail, probably. Same happened in Poland, same happened in Yugoslavia, same happens everywhere. This is because being a dissident does not really mean that you think better than other people; it only means that you think differently.
The point is, not all dissidents are "freedom fighters", and not all countries need, or want, the freedom, and not all societies can take the cold shower of total, uncontrollable, unrestricted freedom (North Korea is one.) I don't know much about this guy, he may be great. I just want to show you the larger picture (which was painted without my involvement, BTW, I am only an observer here).
Of course it is bad to jail dissidents just because they are thinking differently and talking about something. If your political system can't prove its benefits in an open discussion, then probably the system does not deserve to exist.
There is a catch, however, and the catch is called "populism". Basically, unwashed masses are told fairy tales, promised infinite wealth in no time, as long as they vote in a certain way or behave in a certain way (such as siege of Presidential Palace demanding resignation of the President). If a society is well controlled and sufficiently dumb, then this works. It worked before many times. This is exactly the reason why democracy fails in many countries - because the people of the country must be smart and active to vote right. This is often not the case, and quite possibly China is afraid that sweet talk of dissidents promoting ${some_other_system} can cause severe disturbance, maybe even a civil war. This is something worth avoiding, maybe even by jailing one person. Basically, the question is this: "How many people you are willing to kill to save 1 million people?" Dostoevsky gave a lot of thought to this dilemma, see his "Demons" and "Crime and Punishment" for details. And of course "Ringworld Engineers" touches this subject too.
Liu Di was asked if the incident would defranchise her from using a computer again. Liu Di replied 'Right now its too early to say. I just want to lie down and rest. It hurts too much to sit at the computer', she said rubbing her ass.
What a bunch of villains! Putting in jail those people without bringing charges and without given them a right to a lawyer. How can a civilized country act like that in the XXI century?
Wait a minute I think there is another country doing the same thing right now...
Yahh, hiii haaaaa! -Major Kong, from Dr. Strangelove
And you cited up your sources. Nice to read an intelligent response on Slashdot.
Yay me!
I speak against democracy by blowing shit up. I'm being supressed! See the violence inherent in the system!
Love, Saddam bin Laden
in the US those protestors were (if they were peaceful) wrongfully arrested and have grounds to sue the city/state and win. It wouldn't take much to find a lawyer who would take the case for free (no money up front) if they don't have a lawyer friend in their mist already.
The person in China has no such laws to fall back on. As far as China is concerned she was 100% legally arrested.
Guatanamo holds FOREIGN prisoners. Not citizens. I can register www.fuckbush.com and unless I encourage violence against him (or anyone for that matter) there's not jack shit I can be arrested for.
The reason Guantanamo holds *FOREIGN* prisoners is because they don't have the same rights we as citizens do. Just because you're on American soil doesn't make you a citizen with all the rights and priviages that entails.
I don't know all the details on Guantanimo so I'm not going to argue that those prisioners should or should not be there. I don't know why 99.9999999% of prisoners are in jail I just assume there's a good reason. I'd have to argue that on a case by case basis.
But I'm not going to pretend that the US is like China in this regard. China is arresting it's OWN CITIZENS for speaking out against it allowing exactly zero legal recourse. The US is arresting FOREIGN people for doing whatever. If someone in guantanemo was arrested for no good reason I'm not going to argue they should be there. But calling the US a police state is just dense.
It's amazing the kind of stuff I put on my web-site without fearing for my freedom. Mein Kampf, the Communist Manifesto, every historically banned book I could find, all kinds of other political documents like the Declaration of Independence. All in two sections call "Politics as Usual" and "The Library." And I have governments from all over the world visiting my web-site. therabbithole.icarusindie.com
The were moved from the main www.icarusindie.com for business reasons and conflicting interests with certain groups I belong to. Not because I got letters from the government. But because I got e-mails from CITIZENS who thought some of the stuff was a little over the top (and too easy to accidently stumble across) and I happen to agree but I don't believe in censorship so I compromised. Google, the fanstastic beast it is, has already reindexed everything so it's business as usual. Except that those who don't want to see the "darker" side of icarusindie.com will never accidently stumble across it.
It's amazing what you can "get away with" in the US. And imagine what a dream it must be for a Chinese citizen when in the US it's a reality that people sue the police, their counties, cities, states and even take the Supreme Court to court over matters...and WIN.
That certainly is some kind of police state we have here where CITIZENS can sue the government and WIN.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
The rights and freedoms this country was founded upon are far more important to our collective future than red-herring issues like abortion.
You have a point. However, Americans seem to vote for people not based upon issues at all (whether you like or not), and perhaps you could do better with someone who can provide the intangibles that win elections as well as the sound fundamentals you mention.
Being a Californian, I have seen one of these intangibles in play: Hope. Confidence, a promise of happiness, better times, whatever you want to call it. I think politicians are doing well now selling hope, not freedom.
Too bad.
schroeder visits china, and directly after german human rights foundations told him to talk about that topic there.
:(
Seems to be a present to both the U.S.A. and germany to make political visits much more "smooth".
Anyway, not so bad for the good guys...
it has been clear in all education on "rules of war" in the Swedish army for the last 20 years at least that there are "combatants" and "illegal combatants" or "bandits". And I have served in the army, so I know.
I, too, served in the Swedish army, and you are both right and wrong...
There exists a distinction between combatants and "bandits". But bandits (or illegal combatants) are criminals, and treated as such.
They are not stuck in a legal limbo, that is what Ashcroft invented.
Simply put, they are either combatants and criminals, there are rules for dealing with both.
Ashcroft just doesn't feel like following the rules, so he makes up an exception...
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
Really? i thought they just jerk them of ala freddy got fingered
They've already done it. There's about 680 people imprisoned without trial in the US at this very moment..
My girlfriend and I are applying to spend 6 months in China, teaching English. This sort of thing gives me the heebie jeebies.
I'm confused, someone please explain this to me.
No, you are an idiot and no amount of explaination will do you any good.
Washington post has additional information
"The same day, a court convicted a fourth writer charged in the case, Jiang Lijun, of subversion and sentenced him to four years in prison, his lawyer said."
Ruby on Rails Screencast
But Kool Keith is a right dick
He tried to kill me with a forklift!
There's about 680 people imprisoned without trial in the US at this very moment..
Where is that? Where are they? If you say Guantanimo than please, make sure you mention that these people were captured on a field of battle and are NOT guaranteed a trial by any treaty/convention or any US law either. Also that their treatment is much better than any requirement by any international agreement.
Unfortunatly, the WWS, NYT, LAT, and other CPUSA front organizations wish to confuse as many people as possible, just like you are attempting here. Those groups are not against war, they are just for the other side.
For those in the U.S. who don't like bad treatment by governments, there is another option: Howard Dean for President. Elect someone healthy instead of someone who spent a large part of his early adult life drunk.
If you listen to the patriots, they'll point out that these people aren't jailed in USA.
Welcome to an inverse Orweillian world where Bad is Good, Nationalism is Patriotism, Slavery is Freedom, and Anti-war Protestors are Terrorists... yes, it's it's that bizarre...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
Er.. Lucy Liu?
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
MFN is a funny thing. It's basically a negotiation tool.
. st m
We gave it to the Soviet Union in 1974.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1112551
same with Slashdot moderators eh?
>The reason Guantanamo holds *FOREIGN* prisoners is because they don't have the same rights we as citizens do. Just because you're on American soil doesn't make you a citizen with all the rights and [SIC]priviages that entails.
1. Richard Reid (non US citizen, shoe bomber) was charged and taken to court for trail.
2. Zacarias Moussoia (non US citizen, alleged 20'th hijacker) was charged and taken to court for trial.
3. Jose Padilla (US citizen, alleged dirty bomb plotter) has been in military prison for over a year, has not been charged with any crime, and per US policy WILL NEVER be charged with any crime. Has had no access to a lawyer or family contact. The executive branch maintains this policy is beyond the review of any court system.
I'm not seeing consistancy here.
From the PDF file referenced in the parent post, the World Prison Population List:
"The United States has the highest prison population rate in the world, some 686 per 100,000 of the national population,
In the U.S., the anger level is such that there is strong support for keeping people in small cages, at great taxpayer expense, but little support for fixing social problems.
From the parent post: "Getting rid of your idiot president would be a good start."
As others have said, at least there is what appears to be a good alternative: Howard Dean for President
Here it's full of sounds that China government is not willing to hear, I'm very worrying that China gov will block slashdot again, for permanence...
I don't think mules are that popular in China but... if you did post that, I'm sure you'll go to jail.
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
Regarding your quote...
I completely disagree with your view of ideology. I might be biased since I'm ideologically driven but anyway...
Ideologies are for the stronger minds. The weaker ones are the centrists and moderates who have no ideologies and instead follow pragmatism. The people that are not ideological are the sheep that can be brainwashed to do anyone's bidding. Consider the Iraqi war. For all intensive purposes, it is a bogus war that has nothing to do with terrorism. Most of the people against the war are ideologically driven (people left of left, radicals, even liberatarian-conservatives). Those that not ideological, namely the centrists and moderates, are the ones that support the war. These are the ones that can't place Iraq on a map yet know for sure that Iraq and Al-Qaida is connected with no proof. These are the ones that send themselves to war and pay a price. These are the ones that will vote for Bush because Bush is protecting USA with his pre-emptive perpetual war for peace...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
It seems that freedom has become an object reduced to a marchandise that is exportable and marketed by politicians to suit their needs.
c hi/lao.html
c lar.html
China also gave us Lao Tsu:
Quote
Why are people starving?
Because the rulers eat up the money in taxes.
Therefore the people are starving.
Why are the people rebellious?
Because the rulers interfere too much.
Therefore they are rebellious.
Why do people think so little of death?
Because the rulers demand too much of life.
Therefore the people take life lightly.
Having to live on, one knows better than to value life too much.
Unquote
www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Tai
Education is not indoctrination, it should rather be the pursuit of truth regardless of the individuals of nation, color, or creed.
From the declaration of inependence
"WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"
www.law.emory.edu/FEDERAL/independ/de
Any human being held in captivity without respect for his basic rights is a loss and insult for all of humankind and more insulting is when the crime of an imprisoned individual was only pursuing and trying to expose the truth.
www.truthinjustice.org/imprisoned.htm
Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 9
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm
This is a test!
to live in the land of the free and the home of the brave; a wonderful place where things like this quote: "he was never formally charged, but kept at Qincheng Prison for over a year" could never possibly happen. Yes sir, it's good to know that we don't have fascist prisons like Qincheng and leaders who appoint themselves! Our fascist prisons aren't located on our soil, and we have a whole other branch of government that appoints the leader of its choosing.
It feels so good to live in what history will one day call "Fortress America."
Phew, I'm glad something like that could never happen in the US or the UK.
interestingly, her release from prison was seen as a reaction to Germany's Chancellor Schroder's visit to China in the German media ... ;)
eg der Spiegel (sorry, german
A related news in Chinese press, Cai Ling the female leader of the 1989 Tiananmen demacorcy movment has recently arrived in Hongkong to negotiate with Chinese government in order to open a new business in Shanghai. She escaped to the US in 1991 and graduated with a MBA degree from Harvard. Appearently, she left US because trouble with IRS because of questionable financial statement of her's dotCON company in late 90s'
Can't find any Western press carrying this news. The morale of the story: IRS is more scary then Chinese government who wants her DEAD!!!
Instead they're either disinterested in what goes on or dedicated to furthering some ill-concieved and short sighted political agenda that they usually don't even understand. The rights and freedoms this country was founded upon are far more important to our collective future than red-herring issues like abortion. The abortion debate iself is little more than a battle-front in the cultural wars between the loony left and the religious right.
Before criticizing others for not understanding the issues, you might want to learn about them a little more deeply yourself. The abortion debate goes to the heart of the preservation of freedom. In short, here's the crux of the debate.
The left is influenced by the relativistic materialist philosophy that Lenin combined with with Marxism and Hegel's dialectics to create Soviet Communism. Relativism holds that there is no absolute truth or standard of morality, and that what is right and wrong is only what each society in each instance of history decides is right and wrong. Materialism holds that human beings are nothing but organic machines, and that whatever free will we think we have is a mere illusion. Every action we perform, every decision we make, is not a result of our own voltion, but rather a mechanical reaction to a complex combination of outside stimuli.
For example, if I decide to kill someone, it's not b/c I'm an inherently evil person, but rather b/c I have experienced a confluence of environmental stimuli that have essentially "programmed" me, or pushed the right buttons so to speak, which have caused me to inexorably kill a person. I am an automaton with no control over my actions, and free-will is merely the delusion of a mind unable to understand the complex and subtle stimuli that have caused my action.
Since people have no free-will (and no soul), and are simply organic automatons, then no individual human being is special or valuable in and of himself. All that matters is the overall happiness of society. Such is the relativistic end that justifies all means to the left, and Soviet Communism took that to its terminal conclusion by murdering or brainwashing all those that they thought detracted from the overall happiness of society, eg. people of Capitalist/bourgeousie bent or those who simply spoke or acted in ways not in accordance with state idealogy. In the USSR the tally came to around 40 million people. According to Relativism, murdering such people was not only not wrong, but right, b/c it contributed to the happiness of those who were left, and according to Materialism those individuals had no innate value anyway.
So, the Relativistic Materialist influence on the left leads them to the view that overal social happiness is the end that justifies the means, that no one is responsible for his or her actions b/c we're all just automatons, and that there is no absolute right or wrong. Therefore, abortion is merely a function of social happiness, and as such women who want it should clearly be allowed to "chose". Unborn babies make no contribution to social happiness (or economic production, which is one factor of social happiness), and since no individual human has value anyway, aborting an unborn baby is no more or less a transgression than clipping your toenails.
The right on the other hand takes the traditional Classical Liberal/Englightenment view, in that individual human beings have innate value and that there is an absolute truth and absolute right and wrong. Some on the right believe that value is endowed by God, (as America's founders did, hence "inalienable God-given rights"). Others are less religious and believe in the European Enlightenment and German idealist philosophies that man has free-will, and as such is an indenpendent, innately valuable individual, and that the protection of the individual against the tyranny of others is the highest goal of society. Regardless which method of reasoning is used, both agree that protecting the life of the individual is the en
Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
sounds like the us government locking up people in cuba .. no charges filed, yet locked up for over 2 years already.
What is most dismaying about these formalistic discussions of Guantanamo's legal status is not simply that they disregard the practical reality of U.S. control over the territory. They also, quite mistakenly, ignore the U.S. government's deliberate decision to place the detainees there.
This much should be clear. The detainees did not accidentally fall outside of the jurisdiction of the federal courts because they ended up on Guantanamo. Rather, they were brought to Guantanamo for the very purpose of being kept beyond the jurisdiction of the courts.
FINDLAW
what a great free country you live in, i can see China has much to learn, or is that the other way round ? i forget with all the similarities between those nations
release of three 'cyber dissidents' just one week before a trip by visit by Premier Wen Jiabao to the United States
It's the kind of state visit that takes place when the populations are crancky, but the leaders want to bring their countries closer together.
Chinese premier: "Oops, I tripped. Hello, Imperialist fools!"
U. S. President: "Well, since you fell into the United States we should take the opportunity to talk a bit. Commie bastard!"
-all the while doing wink, wink, nudge, nudge, fingers crossed, "say no more". Then they can talk about making the world better for us while the bigots on both sides are kept appeased. I'm deeply moved.
Frankly, I think Reuters should have kept the nature of the visit a secret, in the interest of World Peace.
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
and a great part of that "foreign aid" is given to countries like israel or egypt for military/political reasons and not for humanitary reasons.
while (!asleep()) sheep++
I would argue that strength of mind is not how strongly you are convinced you're right, but how easily you can be convinced if you're wrong. Actually thinking about things, and reaching your own conclusions, means you can't be persuaded easily of things that are wrong, and won't hold onto mistaken beliefs. If everyone in the US did this, there would be no war with terrorism.
The first thing that came to my mind when skimming over the /. headlines was 'China releases Cyber dissidents' ... into US custody :-). I'm sure those dissidents had one or two DIVX movies on their hard drives.
Nice series of straw men. First you equate lefties with communists, an unproven comparison (and one I disagree with), then you distort communism to make it seem more extremist and impersonal than it really is (or was), and then you conclude that because the right is the opposite of the left (again, not proven, and something I disagree with), they are therefore the good guys. I also love how you directly equate abortion to communism. Very innovative, for a troll.
Ofcourse, the fact that you use a enough of long sentences and big words disguises this quite thoroughly.
did not pass the Patriot Act, our elected officials did. I believe the will of the people is no longer being represented.
Yes the Patriot Act, DMCA, and other "feel good" bogus legislation do take some of our rights away. One thing we should never forget or take for granted is that we live in a country where you are free. The next time you post something think about the consequences you would face by posting your beliefs if you lived somewhere else.
Thank you sir. But unfortunately this life-saving information was too late for me. I took a horse cock all the way up my ass and, well, things went downhill from there. As always, here is a picture.
Where is that? Where are they?
New Jersey?
If you say Guantanimo than please, make sure you mention that these people were captured on a field of battle and are NOT guaranteed a trial by any treaty/convention or any US law either.
Except for the enemies of the mafia over there that got handed over to the US as Al Quaeda for the reward money.
Also that their treatment is much better than any requirement by any international agreement.
Except for not getting any of the specific privileges guarenteed to them by international agreement.
Unfortunatly, the WWS, NYT, LAT, and other CPUSA front organizations wish to confuse as many people as possible, just like you are attempting here.
I wouldn't know about that, I only ever come in through LGA or NWK.
Wow, what an excellent wealth of information! I'm hard as a stallion now!
This is not a defense of the holding of the prisoners at Guantanamo, but there is no moral equivalancy here.
Now, if people were being held at Guantanamo for posting anti-government statements on Slashdot, that would be equivalent.
by JVStalin (671988)
A very good number of anti-war protestors are also anti-American terrorists. Just because you're a protestor doesn't mean you aren't also a terrorist. That doesn't give you some special exemption.
Unfortunately, you're wrong. People waive their rights all the time. You have a right not to be searched without probable cause, but when the police ask "do you mind if I search your car?" and you say "Sure," you just waived your Fourth Amendment rights until you invoke them again.
Among other rights you can waive are your speedy trial rights, your right to remain silent, and your right to an attorney (although this last one is hard to waive.
There is an entire body of cases that discuss when a waiver is "knowing and intelligent" and therefore valid. For example, see, North Carolina v. Butler (implied waiver of Miranda rights upheld), and Edwards v. Arizona (initial waiver valid, but once defendant invoked his right to counsel, police could not question further).
Please define "illegal combatant". If by this term you mean "person whom we suspect of involvement in 9/11 but may have been apprehended in countries such as Pakistan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Gambia" (ie not just engaged in combat in Afghanistan) then you are totally justified. They may not deserve POW status as they are not being held for military action, but since they are being held in relation to crimes committed on US soil they should be subject to the laws and procedures of the US, as any other criminal would be. The idea that this crime was more heinous or that foreign nationality is relevant is a red herring. Timothy McVeigh had a trial, was he any better than these people? Oh, I forgot, he was an American, which apparently does make him better...
/ fu ll/llan.362.9383.talking_points.26874.2: //web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr5114120 036 3.html8 26939.html
Or are you saying that an accusation alone is sufficient justification to allow the removal of human rights? In that case, why should any alleged criminal be entitled to legal defence? Perhaps everyone, upon reaching 16, should spend 6 months in federal-pound-me-in-the-ass prison, just to give authorities time to establish they haven't done anything illegal. That is the ultimate extension of the "we decide what laws apply and when" philosophy being espoused currently by the US.
The ugly precedent that you miss about this is that the US is deciding who is or isn't an "illegal combatant", and whether or not they were involved in combat even if they weren't actually on any battlefield. Technically, there is nothing stopping the US declaring anyone, anywhere in the world an illegal combatant (of course, the CIA has never fabricated evidence against anyone...) and holding them without trial for an indefinite time. Also, declaring a "war on terror", but then saying your enemy is engaged in "illegal combat" is totally hypocritical and indefensible to anyone who is capable of recognizing paradoxes.
No, I'm sorry, arbitrarily deciding BEFORE ANY KIND OF TRIAL that a person has no rights is precisely what other countries do. Exerting that principle by force in other sovereign nations is exactly what an imperialist dictatorship does.
Either human rights and rule of law are universal, or the notion of a "fair and free" country is a sham. You can't have it both ways.
For reference of human rights violations at Guantanamo Bay (although you may not have learned this from playing with kittens as a child, not all forms of torture are physical):
http://www.thelancet.com/journal/vol362/iss9383
or
http
or
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_8415
or
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_
or just google. They're there, just get off your smug ass and find them and stop parroting CNN.
Huang Qi is in a Chinese prison because he offered a blog-type service in which he allowed people to freely speak their opinions and helped them find missing relatives.
Nguyen Khac Toan is in prison for helping people reclaim confiscated property from the government.
Pham Hong Son is imprisoned for translating and redistributing a "What is Democracy" acticle published by the American Embassy in Vietnam.
Le Chi Quang was arrested in Vietnam for intending to send e-mail overseas.
I was at a concert Saturday night where the performer stated, "maybe we can incite the world to democracy by actually practicing it." As an American, I would like to personally thank any of you that take the time to help people in opressive countries. The fact that most of us can post on /. with no worry about repurcussions is a really good thing. We should share it.
The Geneva Convention expressly forbids the display of prisoners. What was the first thing the US did when moving people into Guantanamo Bay?
Now, I seem to recall that US POWs were shown on arab television, which sparked howls of outrage in the US based on that very part of the Geneva Convention.
The obvious question here is: why should the US expect protection of its troops under the CG, when it does not extend that same protection to it's opponents, justified by some loose concept of "illegal combatant"? Either the US is engaged in combat with an enemy, or they are not. If they are, the GC should be applicable equally to both sides (otherwise we are dragged down to the level of the fundamentalist fanatics) or neither side should expect protection.
Nice straw man critique. First you completely evade responding directly to my arguments, opting instead for a general rebuttal that puts words on the screen without actually saying anything. Then you use a knee-jerk tactic of distorting my arguments, most likely because you don't really understand them, can't counter them, and don't want other readers to see that. Finally, you resort to calling me a troll disguised as an intellectual in a weak attempt to discredit me.
Standard, unoriginal verbal flailing from someone who's not informed enough to offer a more serious rebuttal. You probably even downloaded it from wittyrebuttals.com and filled in the blanks.
Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
Many people have brought up the point about Gitmo Bay and the USA's unlawful detention of the prisoners there, but there are even worse, even more glaring abuses of human rights post 911...
Mostly due to ethnicity, this guy was locked up indefinitely - without due process - in solitary confimement, without notifying his friends or family. He was told that if he did not admit to being a terrorist that they would keep him locked up forever. They kept him in a concrete shoebox, fully light 24 hours a day, and gaurds would bang on his cell door to keep him awake. Oh, and the USA kept him locked up for over 2 years! Not only that, but they also eventually ended up making up totally BS charges against him, as a means to justify his imprisonment.
Makes you wonder how many other Muslims we have locked up, in order to feed our neo-Nazi appetites.
Eh? We managed to enforce a redesign of the toilet to require two or three flushes per shit, and spread that pathetic redesign to the entire nation.
My proposal is that whether wipes be done front-to-back or back-to-front, a small webcam-style camera is installed on a pole mounted to every toilet. The camera is pointed down at the squatter/wiper, and some gesture recognition software embedded into the device.
The camera has an RF transponder with a range of 100m, so the toilet can report to the police whether or not the camera's been tampered with. The absence of a response from the transponder is a finable offence. This could be done for about $1500 per toilet, including R&D costs and lobbying costs, and an army of intellectual property lawyers to defend the patent for the next 13 years.
I suppose a dissident could hook up a mirror next to television screen displaying a loop of a videotype of a proper wipe to defeat the system, but the system in its default configuration should handle most of the population.
We've donated the requisite $50,000 to the required 300-odd Congressmen and 65 Senators. It's attached as a rider to a law sponsored by the environmental lobby - the transponders were originally supposed to ensure that people were using transponder-verified 3-flush water-saving models instead of single-flush bogs, and it was an easy sale to the HMO lobby to get the rider ensuring that a system be placed into effect to ensure that asswipes were done in the proper direction. (The Fecal Management Tax Credit of 200% for low- and middle-income families ensures widespread adoption of the new toilet technology - the bottom 50% of the income scale pays $1500 to install the new toilet, and gets $3000 back in government money, so it doesn't cut into our profits by one cent!)
Given the 100,000,000 toilets in America, and the $1500 per unit it'll take to refit, we project revenues of $150 billion over the lifecycle of the project, and earnings of $100B. We go IPO tomorrow (NASDAQ:POOP), and you can get in on the bandwagon any time between now and 2004!
Now - what was that you were saying about certain laws being unenforceable? If it weren't for my upcoming IPO, I was going to say something to the effect that any law, however insane, becomes enforceable when it becomes important enough to the government to see it enforced.
Man, *finally* someone said this. Are you American? Because I have a hard time believing that... if the (US) media is to be believed, the whole of the US is hell bent on installing democratic regimes in every country on earth, whether or not it's a good idea. Just look at Iraq. I'm not convinced that they're culturally prepared for democracy just yet, but that won't stop the US from forcing it down their throats...
I hope you aren't from the U.S. You have a little problem in Guantenamo Bay, if you are. Also how the police treat protestors in your country is appalling to the truly free nations in the world (where we can actually protest the government for redress of grievances without being sprayed with acidic pepper solution, rubber bullets, or wooden mallets).
Ummm...weren't at least some of the Taliban fighers actually "volunteer corps" from other countries (primarily Pakistan?) Then it would seem that they DO qualify as "members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces."
There is a logical flaw with your assertion that the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay are all "illegal combatants." Your implication is that they are all terrorists i.e. International Criminals, and therefore not protected by the Geneva Convention. Fair enough - but the problem is the the US Military hasn't allowed third parties to verify any of the prisoners as al-Queda et. al. Therein lies the problem.
Isn't it possible that some of them are local militia coerced into fighting for the Taliban and/or mistakenly captured by the US? As far as I'm concerned the actual terrorists should be kept in tough conditions, but what about anybody that shouldn't be there (i.e. the militia members - "legal" combatants)?
I guess it depends on two factors:
1) Do you blindly trust everything your military/government tells you? Unfortunately, their track-record isn't so good in this regard.
2) Do you think that only soldiers of the United States have Human Rights?
I doubt the thirteen American colonies were "ready" for democracy either. After all, it hadn't been practiced in its purer forms for thousands of years. They were divided by religious differences as well. At least in Iraq we only have two sects to worry about!
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
And how does that make it okay to force it on a nation who hasn't even been asked what they want? At least the American colonies *chose* their cultural revolution...
So I'll try to engage in more of a dialogue...(in response to jsebrech's reply to your post and your subsequent reply).
I do think your post is somewhat skewed. Saying "the left thinks" or "the right thinks" is always dangerous anyway, but I acknowledge that sometimes generalizations are needed. Regardless, it is unfair and innacurate to imply "the left" thinks, "...overal social happiness is the end that justifies the means, that no one is responsible for his or her actions b/c we're all just automatons, and that there is no absolute right or wrong."
I would (as a member of "the left") agree _partially_ with all of those concepts. I think overal social happiness is a primary goal of society. However, the end does not justify the means. While I see how your logic progression brought you to this conclusion, I don't believe it's accurate and would like you to suply examples (beyond the at-hand issue of abortion, which I'll get to in a minute) of American leftists saying the end justifies the means.
I do agree with some of what you touched upon regarding free will. I DO believe that no one is inherently evil, and that societal and personal experiences shape and influence people. But that doesn't nullify personal responsibility. Relating it to a common Slashdot topic, playing a violent videogame doesn't release anyone from the responsibility of their actions.
Finally, I think the only absolute "right" IS personal happiness. I believe the goal society is to juggle between the happiness of its members. But I won't pretend to know the best way to do this. As I said, I don't think the end justifies the means (Nazi extermination of the Jews arguably might have left the remaining Germans a lot happier, likewise with Soviet executions of dissidents), and this is an issue I think people will be struggling with for all time.
So lets get to abortion. You said, "Unborn babies make no contribution to social happiness (or economic production, which is one factor of social happiness), and since no individual human has value anyway, aborting an unborn baby is no more or less a transgression than clipping your toenails." Saying The Left believes an individual human has no value is (I realize I'm repeating myself with these two words) unfair and inaccurate. If you want to talk about the value of human life, why would 'we' be the strongest pushers for abolishing the death penalty if we didn't believe life held value? (Sidenote: I am ready and willing to argue on the death penalty, but as an attempt to stem off a possible rebuttle, I am not defending someone taking the life of another. People correctly convicted and sentenced to die - and note the word "correctly", which is a large part of my problem - are the scum of the earth. I am simply saying it is hypocritical and (I believe) 'wrong' to, in turn, take that persons life.) Aborting a baby is OBVIOUSLY (if for no other reason, the emotional impact on the woman who has the procedure) more that clipping a toenail. However, pro-life and pro-choice advocates have a single insurmountable point they disagree on: when a fetus can be classified as a "human." That is, when "humanity" begins. I don't believe abortion is wrong because I don't agree that the fetus being aborted IS a "human." That's a point that isn't arguable, by either side. I'm not going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me. Which is unfortunate, because the choices made on abortion inherently affect people OTHER than ourselves.
So, I think your post is well thought-out but, at the same time, written in a way underhanded and lopsided.
-Trillian
At least they are releasing these guys in PRC because of pressure from the US and the EU. But in Iran, no one is paying attention to us as the government agencies are arresting blogers here and there. http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/07/16/iran .blogs/
Basicaly blogging became so popular in Iran, and became a form of free speech, in which people could freely talk about their political views and talk about democracy and other forbiden things in Iran. But now well, the Ministry of Inteligence (like CIA in US), is getting invloved in the process, and is arresting nearly every blogger who talks about forbidden things on the internet. Internet is also now becomming cencored, and they are requiring ISPs to tell them who exactly went to what website at what time.
I have to post as anonymous, cause someone from the ministry might be reading slashdot, who knows.
Interesting to see how you base your story around the popular 'China closed it's borders and lost track of time'-myth and Menzies' '1421: The Year China Discovered The World', a book in which he claimes to have proof that the Chinese had already discovered the whole world around 1421.
Did you actually read the book or did you just hear someone talking about it at a party?
Well, it doesn't really matter, it just shows how far your knowledge on the whole China-subject goes.
Yes, China had the biggest and advanced ships of the world at that time and they went all the way to the south of Africa. But there's no evidence whatsoever that they went around the world (accordign to Menzies some of the ships went back to China taking the route north of Canada). Also interesting is that Menzies does not speak any Chinese, nor did he have his material checked by someone who does. How can one research Chinese history without being able to speak Chinese? Beats me and I would know, I study Sinology. Anyways, just some reasons why Menzies is full of crap and we shouldn't be listening to your opinion when it's based on what he wrote.
I know I'm being synical, but seriously: don't believe stuff just because it's in a book.
"She was never formally charged, but kept at Qincheng Prison for over a year."
Man... It will be a scary day indeed when things like that start happening on American soil...
So, if China has decided to let go someone who opposed them and was consequently held without trial for indefinate time, maybe there's hope that the USA might liberate or put to trial the prisoners of war being held at Camp X-ray ?
Don't you think police state is a bit of an exaggeration?
This is why we need free speech, not so any tom, dick, or harry can post child pornography and call it free speech or flood your inbox and/or fax machine with junk.
Every few weeks he ask the police if they were following their own procedures and policies in her case, which they obviously weren't since she was never charged.
They imprisoned him for disturbing order or some such nonsence. I believe the sentence was for several years.
That's an easy one.
Liberals have been angry about China's human rights violations for a long time. It's old news, it's foreign (related) news. As a result, it's gets little to no coverage.
However, if someone even hints that just maybe the United States is making a bad decision, it's easy to quote the person out of context (or even never quote them at all) and paint them as being Anti-American. It's impressive sounding! It's newsworthy! It may be bullshit, but it sells newspapers!
I'm liberal. I know many, many liberals. I've never met a liberal who hated America. Every liberal I know loves America and loves the ideas it stands for. And every liberal I know feels that America should be a shining beacon for liberty. As a shining beacon, we hold America to extremely high standards. We fear that others are lowering the standards, degrading the ideals of America. And so we complain about those actions taken in the name of America. We do it because we love America and refuse to see it dragged into the mire. We're trying to maintain American's moral high ground so that we can continue to pressure countries like China to improve.
In exchange for fighting to protect what we believe is best about America, we're branded as "Blame America Firsters" (No, I don't blame America, I blame you for fucking with America), and "Traitors".
I love my country and want what's best for it.
Fuck you.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
"You are a pathetic clown... ...I understand your hatred of George W. Bush, but really this isn't a very good way to make points for your side..."
...I understand your love for your country, but really this isn't a very good way to make points for your side...
Hey kid I just did put some facts in your face that's all. There is an expression we use up here that goes like this : "if the hat fit in your head, keep it!" If you feel guilty for something this is not my problem so calm down. If you like to shove your head in the sand because this is the patriotic thing to do, go ahead it is your right.
Your violent answer calling me a clown really did not impressed me. In my opinion violent people are simply weak minds who are not able to resolve their conflicts any other way. Terrorists fit very well in this definition and China leaders who violate human rights two. (And also any other leader of any other country including mine, Canada.)
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
--Einstein, Albert
Yahh, hiii haaaaa! -Major Kong, from Dr. Strangelove
I first read the title as "China Releases Cyber Demon" :P
That *would* be scary.
Duct tape, XML, democracy: Not doing the job? Use more.
I have read alot of the above and there are alot of people who think they are funny and smart by comparing China and the United States and making the comparison using the terrorists in Cuba. Here is where the comparison fails:
1. Americans don't care about non-US fucks who like to kill us. We jail them and hopefully kill them.
2. China imprisons its own people
Ask any red-blooded American, and I mean a "real" American, not some foreigner who is here to get Medicaid and work real hard so they can go back home to some dirt poor country and act like an asshole and live the rest of their lives like Superstars on 400,000 dollars ( Philippines, Thailand, etc...) I mean an Italian, Cuban, Mexican, whatever, who came here to integrate into our country and are proud to be an American. And I mean all races and creeds, not just White or whatever, I mean everybody who values being an American, not somebody who just likes to live and work here. Ask them "Do you care if we tortured the fuckers in Cuba?" They would say No. Why? Because they saw planes FLY INTO OUR FUCKING BUILDINGS!! Now, would they care if we put some 19 year old college student in jail because he wrote a paper that cast a bad light on the IRS. Yes!! Why? Because the kid is an American and he can protest, peacably, against our government. That is what freedom is about. But sorry, our forefathers wrote our government documents to protect the people in the 13 colonies, not savages living West, just like we don't give a shit if we step on the rights of a-holes from terrorist countries, whether from Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, or Ireland. It doesn't matter what we do to them, they aren't American. Get it!! We don't care about ENEMIES but we will comment on what other countries do to their own citizens. Why can't people understand that countries, like families, should protect their own, and if don't stop worrying about everybodies feelings in this world we are going to watch more buildings fall.
The Chinese Government are filth-
Boycott Made In China
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Do you have any proof? If someone is a terrorist, why aren't you charging them? The legal system handles a serious charge like terrorism doesn't it? Or are you just making this stuff up without any proof?
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
I don't think anything you said rebuts my point. My view is that ideologues are stronger (in terms of mind) than pragmatists, non-ideologues, and others.
You'll note that most of the people in USA who support imperialism, wars, and the like are not ideologically driven. The warmongers are; but not the people who follow them. Those that are ideologically driven have studied the issues in more depth and have formed some world view based on their value systems. The general population and others, in contrast, are the sheep. For instance, you'll find that propaganda and disinformation does not work on ideologically driven people; but it works very well on the rest.
I, being ideologically driven, have no problem with it (obviously). I'm perfectly comfortable with even my arch-enemies (like fascists and capitalists). A fascist, to me, is much stronger in the mind than centrists and others. I don't like their ideology and I don't like the world they are trying to create. However, they are stronger...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
None of you stupid ass clowns know anything about China or the Chinese people or Chinese history now fuck off and go talk about Linux or something
When the Chinese are criticised by people who know what they're talking about, they react violently, like this AC. Saving face has always mattered more than freedom of speech in Chinese culture, so it's no surprise that the most powerful people in China -- soldiers, communists, nationalists, imperial officials, or just rich people -- have always felt it was perfectly reasonable to imprison, torture, or murder their critics.
When they're not able to shut you up forcibly, it often drives them into a rage like this one where amusingly, between the profanities, he is essentially demanding that we change the subject and stop hurting his ethnic pride. "...go talk about Linux or something...."
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
They have one of the lowest crime rates, and with the economic and democratic reforms in the works they will far outshine the US (or so the WTO perdicts).
Nonsense. Crime in China is blood curdling. The government statistics lie about it for the same reason they lied about SARS: to save face. To show that the gov't has things under control. There are mass migrations of people coming in to the major cities looking for work. Many of them don't find it in the legitimate sectors. The government says the crime rate is similar to Japan's. In Japan they don't have bars on the windows or broken glass and barbed wire on top of the walls, so apparently the Chinese people don't believe they're as safe as the gov't claims.
The Chinese government is far weaker than most in the West realise, and when they focus so much of their limited resources on simply maintaining their own monopoly on political power, it doesn't leave much left over for fighting actual crime.
As a result, they have to make a real show of it when they are able to capture real criminals, or if they can't punish the real culprit they'll just pick someone they don't like and put a bullet in his head, to try to demonstrate to The People that they have things under control.
As for the democratic reforms far outshining the US, why don't you go start a new political party in China and show us. Those democratic reforms you speak of recently made it legal to do so. All of those who believed it and started parties are now in prison. Nice sting operation. Declare competitive political parties legal, wait for your competitors to show themselves, then arrest them. US Democrats and Republicans get pretty silly at times, but they don't have to win a war or risk going to prison to put each other out of office.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
+1 funny
So I'll try to engage in more of a dialogue...(in response to jsebrech's reply to your post and your subsequent reply).
Thanks for the interesting reply, Trillian. Unfortunately I only have time for one long, thought-out post per week, but I'll do my best to return the favor of a thorough answer. Forgive me if it leaves you wanting.
Saying "the left thinks" or "the right thinks" is always dangerous anyway,
True, however what I said initially and should have reiterated more thoroughly is that the left is strongly influenced by relativism and materialism. It's no secret that Dialectical Materialism, the intellectual framework of Marxism, was extremely popular among the American left during the early and middle part of the past century (as it was among the left everywhere in the world). Of course, the term itself didn't trickle down to the rank and file, but leftist intellectual leaders of the time used it to construct their core idealogy.
I don't believe it's accurate and would like you to suply examples (beyond the at-hand issue of abortion, which I'll get to in a minute) of American leftists saying the end justifies the means.
No one says in the words "the end justifies the means", but many liberal policies are based on it. A few examples: progressive taxation, wealth redistribution, and affirmative action. Each is a case of government providing advantage / inflicting disadvantage to one group of people over others and justifying it by saying the end result of social equality will justify the means of transgressing upon the individual rights to private property and equal opportunity before the law.
I do agree with some of what you touched upon regarding free will. I DO believe that no one is inherently evil, and that societal and personal experiences shape and influence people. But that doesn't nullify personal responsibility. Relating it to a common Slashdot topic, playing a violent videogame doesn't release anyone from the responsibility of their actions.
Interesting. It sounds as if you're reaching for a social "Third Way", combining the strongest aspects of liberalism and conservatism/libertarianism. Scientific determination + personal responsibility. However, the two can't logically coexist. If you are determined solely by societal and personal experience, then you cannot control who you are and what you do, so how can you have any personal responsibility over your actions? The only way you can control your actions is if you have some measure of control over yourself, in which case personal responsibility would be possible. However, if even the minutest measure of personal control exists, then scientific determinism is negated.
Finally, I think the only absolute "right" IS personal happiness. I believe the goal society is to juggle between the happiness of its members. But I won't pretend to know the best way to do this. As I said, I don't think the end justifies the means (Nazi extermination of the Jews arguably might have left the remaining Germans a lot happier, likewise with Soviet executions of dissidents), and this is an issue I think people will be struggling with for all time.
The difference between us is that, being a Libertarian, I believe that there is no right to "happiness" whatsoever. There are a lot of reasons for that. One is that many people simply can't figure out what makes themselves happy, much less anyone else. If that's the case, how could society or the government even pretend to know? It's more likely that if happiness is a right, the government will waste untold resources trying to make everyone happy, failing many of them. Happiness is a nebulous and mercurial concept at best.
What is better is the right to the pursuit of happiness, as enshrined in the US Constitution. Everyone is responsible for his or her own happiness in life. Some achieve it, others don't, but c'est la vie. It's not one person's (or society's) respons
Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
The people choosing democracy proved they were ready for democracy, as they chose for themselves
Now if Castro ever pisses us off again, we can just let some jihadists 'escape' and raze Cuba in search of them.
And back and forth we go...although I must say this is much more interesting than the work I _should_ be doing.
Your example of affirmative action bugs me. It really does. Because I do support affirmative action, but at the same time disagree with the idea that the end justifies the means. Yet, the more and more I think about it, that's basically what it's saying. My support of affirmative action, saying that whites are inherently at an unfair advantage and affirmative action is 'leveling the playing field' is simply a justification and (while I believe it) doesn't actually address the idea of 'the end justifying the mean.' So shit. Saying, "Well, the ends justify the means. Sometimes. When I feel like it," is obviously wishy-washy and crap. I haven't come to any conclusions, and I'm not willing to drop my support of affirmative action yet, but you've given me something to think about.
"Scientific determination + personal responsibility. However, the two can't logically coexist."
I don't think my semi-conflicting ideas on free will (a combination of true free will and societal influences) are mutually exclusive. I don't think you're _solely_ influenced by outside forces. I simply believe they play a _part_ in the creation of your character, and influence your actions.I disagree with the term "scientific determination," because I don't think that when you're born a cosmic die is rolled that controls your actions. At the same time, you will be a different person if you're beat as a child than if you're raised in a loving household. The former doesn't condemn you to a life of crime, while the latter doesn't guarantee you a life of happiness. I agree that free will exists. But I can't see how the events of your life can't _not_ influence you.
"What is better is the right to the pursuit of happiness, as enshrined in the US Constitution."
Okay. I'll buy that. But I believe the government should be constructed to give everyone the best possible chance to do that. (And I _think_ you agree, although we seem to disagree on many of the specifics.)
"There's an explanation for the left's opposition to the death penalty in relativistic materialism too. As we've established, humans are organic machines, and people are simply programmed by their environment."
No. We haven't established that. You've said that 'the left' believes it (or at least derives their beliefs from that concept), and I've disagreed.
"Given that it is possible to reprogram the human mind, the left believes that even the most egregious offenders can be reprogrammed through controlled therapy, and should therefore not be put to death. And this is exactly the argument you hear among liberal politicians when it comes to the death penalty: therapy instead of incarceration or execution."
That's _AN_ argument against the death penalty. It's not _THE_ argument. In no particular order, there are other very valid reasons to be against the death penalty. The main other argument against the death penalty is that the system is faulty. As a resident of Illinois, I'm more familiar with 'my' judicial system than those elsewhere, but more than a dozen men sentenced to DIE for crimes they did not commit is a farce, and a system that shouldn't exist. So part of my problem with the death penalty is you can't "undo" a death sentence. The American legal system has a lot of things going for it, but is still wrong on occasion. Far too often. And because I don't believe a 100% perfect justice system is possible, I'll remain against the death penalty. Another argument (albeit not a primary one) is the cost. Sentencing a prisoner to die costs more than life in prison. So direct your tax dollars where they could be better spent, and don't sentence people to die.
Even if those issues were satisfied, I still have moral issues with the death penalty. As I said, I believe it's a hypocritical system that kills those it condemns for killing.
And, hopefully, rehabilitation might be possible. If not, a horrible per
Thanks for clearing out the things for the ignoramus general public of the US of A.
Yeah. I got to metamod the grandparent's troll-mod to oblivion yesterday.
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