Slashdot Mirror
India Test-Fires Cryogenic Rocket Engine
alphakappa writes "Wired News reports that India has successfully testfired a cryogenic rocket engine that can be used to 'launch high-altitude satellites, send a man to the moon -- or build intercontinental ballistic missiles'. The rocket which typically has to fire for 12 minutes during flight was fired for 17 minutes during ground testing. So are we gonna see competition in the moon race? Remember, India has already spoken about sending a mission to the moon and it has joined the Galileo consortium along with China."
Confusing name for a technology that (appears) to have nothing to do with time but sharing the chemicals with head freezing
anyone comes out and spouts the "stolen or bought technology" meme, the Wired article says
India's bid to develop its own cryogenic engines suffered several setbacks. In 1992, Russia agreed to give India the technology but reversed the decision after Moscow signed the Missile Technology Control Regime with the United States. Washington objected to giving India the technology because of its potential use for nuclear missiles.
Russia later agreed to sell fully built engines, without passing on the technology, to India.
India developed a rudimentary form of its cryogenic technology in 2001 and several tests were held after that to fine-tune it.
It does have to do with freezing of sorts, because the gases that are required for fuel oxygen and hydrogen (as well as a mixture of others) are gaseous in normal atmospheric conditions. They are required to be cooled down to a liquid state, hence the name "cryogenic rocket engine".
Be you Admins? nay, we are but lusers!
So, pretty soon Abu will have a mini-market in the moon!
Doh!
I was listening to a debate about outsourcing on BBC Radio the other night, and they pointed out that in Bangalore there's a lot of worry about all the call centre backroom IT jobs getting outsourced to China, where the costs are so low that India can't possibly compete.
I agree that the Moon isn't the *real* purpose of the Indian space programme, but, just as with the US 30 years ago, aiming high helps to hit the lower targets, like comsats, earth imaging and so forth, not to mention the huge boost to national self-esteem and all the benefits that can bring in sheer morale terms - when you've got to the Moon, what challenge can you honestly say is too big to even attempt?
So are we gonna see competition in the moon race?
No, we're just going to see India launch a few satelites to show that they can (because if you can launch a satelite, you can build ICBM's), I doubt they will want to go to the moon.
A nice article on Cryogenic Rocket engines is available here .
I think not. The IC in ICBM is inter-continental - however India's rivalry has always been with Pakistan, who are on the same continent (thus no ICBM required for nuclear destruction). So hopefully this won't bother Pakistan at all.
"manned mission to the moon...."
Am i the only one confused. Indias moon ambitions were said to be restricted to only firing a unmanned galileo type mission to the moon. Which is pretty simple considering that they were planning to use the existing GSLV(Geo-Stationary Launch Vehicle) set-up. Why the sudden shift to a manned mission? A manned mission to the moon will never happen in India because of a number of reasons most notably the fact that we spend peanuts on space, compare isro's(indian space research org.) budget to NASA.
Also i thought GSLV - the satellite launch vehicle was totally indigenously built, Though WIRED seems to claim that the engine was Russian!
Anyway i think its a great achievement considering the amount India spends on space research.
So are we gonna see competition in the moon race?
Perhaps we should wait until India has actually placed someone in orbit before talking about a moonshot? I am all for an increase in competition when it comes to space, but aren't we getting a wee bit ahead of ourselves?
Last I heard europe's attempt to get a flight orbiting the moon was nixed at the last moment when the US/NASA withdrew permission. How are china and india getting the go-ahead here?
No, it's the americans who give them the jobs. If that makes the indians or the americans look bad is an interesting question.
Is this because Dell wants a tech support center on the Moon?
This ICBM nonsense seems to be floating all over the place. Only a bloody idiot would use a cryogenic engine for an ICBM. You don't need to build a god damned geostationery satellite launch vehicle to build an ICBM. India's Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle which has been operational for many years now can easily be converted to an operational ICBM. Cryogenic engines just add the need for a lot more ground facilities for a launch. There just isn't a need for an ICBM since China and Pakistan are right next door to India. The attitude seems to be.. "oh India's launching satellites? It must be for something bad." Get over it assholes.
...when you've got to the Moon, what challenge can you honestly say is too big to even attempt?
World peace?
welcome our new cryogenic Indian overlords.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Yes, i remember that. At the same time me and some guys here in Europe received a permission signed by Reagan himself to be able to shit after midnight. China and India will probably do like we did before the authorization. They will put a cork and shut-up, as we were scared senseless.
prices for thowing things into orbit will only come down when there is some straightforward competition. It is good to see more players in the field, and it is good to see various technologies tried-- I doubt this is the most efficient, but let them give it a shot.
Rocketry is yes-- rocket science-- but certainly within the grasp of "second tier" tech nations like China, India, Brazil, and Korea.
davejenkins.com |
Lets also be realistic here; the only place India would want to hit with an ICBM is Pakistan, and they already have more conventional rockets which are plenty capable of doing that.
This rocket is just because they can, and no doubt also an attempt to attract international investment. After all, this is a great adverstisment for the education standards of your workforce if you're able to achieve complex technological goals like this.
Same reason the US did such a useless thing, to keep up with the communists (Chinese, in this case).
It wasn't all that long ago China and India fought a small border war; their relations are not particularly friendly.
I: We will be having giant-sized moon rocket now.
P: You think you are becoming big shot with moon rocket now?
I: We are becoming superpower now.
P: You are not now.
I: We are too now.
P: We will be building bigger rocket now.
I: You are not now.
O: We are too now.
I: All of your bases are belonging to us now.
sigs, as if you care.
Maybe this will increase the chances of NASA outsourcing their Astronauts to India ;)
Intent and result. Without a doubt.
Kinda like firing a gun into a crowd of people.
I, for one, hope (in India) our Apu pimping overloards welcome you!
They had a sense of humor once. But, much like Chris Farley, it died.
I don't know about the 'pun', but you certainly put the 'jab' in 'punjab'.
Now we can outsource our space program!
Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
That is utter bullshit.
Indian constitution doesn't promote caste system. Other than that, I leave it to you, oh mighty sage, to educate those people who promote caste system.
May the beam be with you!
The change is kinda interesting. Countries pouring their resources into science and exploration instead of another arms race (but it only takes one nation to start the whole thing again and if it happens there will be several players).
Spin offs include environmental technologies which never would have been developed. Smarter more exotic materials. Massive raw protein potential. Getting things to mars or even low earth orbit is alot easier from the moon then from earth. so on, so forth, etc.
Not unless they want an incredibly slow to prepare and obvious missile fleet.
The problem with cryogenic fueled rocket engines is that you have to fuel them before you fire them. Filling a missile fleet with LOX takes time and if anyone notices gives them ample opportunity to preemptively strike.
It's utterly true. The Indian constitution tries to dismantle the caste system. However, the caste system still is a huge problem in India. The government should try to solve that problem rather than make cryogenic rockets, in my opinion.
... I would mod that post as "Sad but true".
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Uhhh this is outer space, the US has no claim over whether or not anyone can go, nor is their permission needed. The moon even LESS so
Hi
India has caste problem, sexism, poverty and all that but claiming that all those should be completely solved before India even talks about space is not a bright practical idea
Regards
Rahul
The government should try to solve that problem rather than make cryogenic rockets, in my opinion.
How about:
The government should try to solve that problem AND make cryogenic rockets.
Thats why, pack up, go there and educate those people.
Yeah, according to you, close all those schools that are doing these researches, maybe even stop educating people, and somehow do this magic trick that will make the caste system go away.
How will the government 'dismantle' caste system?
You mean... like the way the US should try to develop humanity and understanding, instead of launching phony wars for political and economic gain? ;)
We've all got our issues, but progress is still progress.
India has the second largest population in the world. They have nuclear weapons and are capable of building ICBM-s to carry those nukes. Now, why in the world should Pakistan be the only place they want to hit with those nukes, if they have the means to for more? Why not take on China or the Muslim world? I think the rocket is a way of showing the rest of the world that India is a player, too.
Hell is not other people; it is yourself. - Ludwig Wittgenstein
Insightful!
Hmm, let me see, from India's perspective , the bigger challanges are ....
Poverty :- The country's wealth is divided by the 90-10 rule. i.e. 10% of the population has 90% of the wealth.
:- More than 50%. And since being literate means being able to sign your name, the actual figures could be as high as 70-75% :- Forget the politicians , I can't get my mail if I don't tip my postman. :- One of the world's worst . So much Red tape everywhere. :- Barring major cities, public transport is a mess and not every one can afford their own vehicle. Road/Rail accidents account for most no. of deaths in the country.
Illiteracy
Rampant Political/Economical and Social Corruption
Infrastructure
Transportation and Safety
Disaster Recovery:- No set plans and procedures for natural disaster recovery from floods , famines, fires etc. People are left at the mercy of nature and rehabilitation is a joke.
I am not a westerner trying to judge india, I am an indian , humbly pointing out what our top priorities should be.
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
Why can't they do both?? It's not as if doing one precludes doing the other.
Not to mention the benefits of the first Quik-E-Mart on the ISS!
This comment was generated by a squadron of trained super elite albino ninja chickens for you.
Hey, come on... put a large number of talented people in a large economy with a culture valuing education and industriousness and you need to expect them to excel at stuff like this.
Though I am a little confused as to why they would focus on cryogenic engines rather than the other way... ignoring a valuable natural resource and all. They should have made a curry engine instead, which has way more lifting power than a LOX and H engine could ever have if what it does to my gut is any idication...
I coulda swore that we already won that one. I guess it's true, don't belive what you learn in school these days.
adventure-today.com
Volatile does not mean explosive!
Now all they need is a spinach farm the size of Jupiter, and they'll be able to corner the market in green cheese palak paneer.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Call me pedantic but, you don't fire Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles at neighbouring countries...
like the way the US should try to develop humanity and understanding
Whatever, if the US doesn't do anything then they are blamed for letting others suffer. If they do something then they are blamed for causing havoc.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Fuck off.
I was thinking the same thing. But the wheels have been put in motion. At this point it's more productive to make sure things work smoothly.
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
I am a westerner and will now judge india in a burst of hubris:
I think India should also work on its leprosy poblem...and the plague.
Seriously, for a country to simultaniously have atomic weapons and diseases from the middle ages...that's scary.
Then again, there's been an increase in syphilis in the states lately...that's more 19th century than middle ages, but nobody's perfect.
You can't take the sky from me...
i read the views and reviews but all seem to forget one thing that, yes there is competition building up, the technology what USA flaunts of comes from indian brains cos more than 30% ppl working in NASA are indians, now as such some one said dell technical support centre on moon, oh boy, yer country or where you are, don't av the technical people or you people simply know how to write but dun know the technology behind it, thus comes india, the support, the back bone, the life support, it's cheap and efficeint, not far are the days when India will have sanctions on USA and then we would seek answers and replies, and then someone was talking about ICBM, lol, dun ya guys need a refresher course, poor you, i mean yes, true, you guys truly need an insight into what actually India aims at, and what it will acheive, the technology is developed however or howsoever, isn't it ironic that whatever someone else achieves is subject to criticism, cus you people do know USA for that mattter does not have anything of itself, but hired people and money.. agree or not, loosers will admire USA .. but INDIA as such has it's head up held high .. slow and steady .. getting in . competing and is a SURE WINNER
what are you stupid ?
if the government waits till society is perfect before undertaking any scientific projects, it will wait forever.
or perhaps you forget that the US was working on the Apollo project in the 50's when segregation was still legal in the south ? perhaps you should have waited to solve your racial problems before "wasting" money on trying to go to the moon
Uh yeah, which is my point. This isn't an ICBM, and they already have non-ICBM missiles quite capable of hitting Pakistan. This rocket is not intended to deliver any weaponised warheads.
Your god doesn't exist.
Good luck getting a ship to the moon using spaghetti code with no comments and no error checking.
Yea...Americans are good people like Texans...
Punjab is a state...HONKIE.
The problem it is a culture my friend. For every problem government wont solve the problem and indeed if it is upto politicians they exploit Caste System to enrich themselves.trust me in elections in lot of places the contestants are chosen basis of caste So change has to occur in ppl then change will be seen in the overlords too
Hey, I went to college with a Rahul... Do you work for Ebay?
Would Pakinstan just nuke those sorry motherfuckers already?
There's about 40 Rahuls where I work, plus 30 Srinivas, 50 Sandeep's, and about 3 dozen with the last name asifgh'eghiwieghw'eighnwoeignwnegoi.
... but when I started working at a supposed American company, the above is what I discovered. I sincerely hope it bites them in the ass.
I thought Matthew was a common American name
I love the fact that we had to throw in an obligatory terrorism threat. Ah, the mind-set of the public....
Anyway, more power to them. I think everybody should have an equal chance to go into space.
Of course, they do have a lingering border dispute with China as well.
Distance between New Delhi and Islamabad: 406 miles (653 km)
Distance between New Delhi and Beijing: 2341 miles (3768 km)
None of the USA's current fleet of ICBM's (AFAIK) use cryogenic motors for their primary stages. However, previous generations certianly did, (Redstone, Titan, etc)
Although this rocket may very well be intended for civilian or commercial service, I think that it is also to demonstrate to the world India's continued development of rocket systems, keeping in the audience's mind that they can put increasingly large nuclear payloads increasingly farther away.
I am tired of hearing about rectifying the caste problem. Applying an analogy, the caste system can be compared with racism in US. You know its abolished but you can find it every creepy corner. Get what I mean?
You should read more on how the world works. Do you think the developed nations are any different. A very small percentage of people control very large percentage of stock market
Riiight.
"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
Wow! If that's your definition of a serious poverty problem we'd better get to work fixing America, too.
Now before I get modded down, I be to remind whoever might read this that what I am saying is FACT. - bogaboga
Anyway, how do you keep a kerosene-LOX rocket on the pad on any kind of alert status (i.e. able to launch in some time less than several days of prep)? The idea was to keep it plugged in to a supply of LOX so as LOX boils off, you pump in more. In a test, they had a leak on a LOX feed line to the rocket, so one of the technicians, like, whipped it out and took aim at the leak -- that froze over and plugged the leak. I work with a fellow whose favorite expression is "running around peeing on all of those problems" and here is where someone did it for real.
Yeah, looks you are more the Dawood or the Mafia Muslims in Dubai. Guess your say would be "instead of sending a satellite to the moon, send a missile to the developed nations - you could bring them in par with you"
IIRC, Inda's public statements are to the effect that they are more worried about China than Pakistan. Sure the war with Pakistan is hotter, but in the end they claim to see Pakistan as a threat they can deal with, without using nukes. China is a much harder threat to deal with. Pakistan has said essentially the same thing: China is a bigger threat than India.
Having talked to a few people from each of the above I'd agree. The Chinese are used to being brainwashed and controled in some areas that makes in very easy for their government to attack suddenly, and their large population gives them a good chance of winning by attrition. (though India might stand up do that if their defense is good, it isn't likely it would be used)
Cyrogenic ICBMs are first-strike weapons. It takes so long to prep and fuel them that they're useless as a retaliation weapon. The opposition's ICBMs will land on your silos first. Keeping a cyrogenic system at a high state of readiness for years on end is difficult.
The Cuban missile crisis is sometimes said to have occured because the US put cyrogenic ICBMs in Turkey, aimed at the Soviet Union. That looked like the US was planning a first strike on Moscow. The Soviet Union had to respond to that threat.
(Decades later, interviews with the Soviet officials who made that decision revealed that most of them didn't look at it that way, but that's another issue. The communication-by-strategic-threat thing never worked as some of the gurus of deterrence thought it did. The most famous example of such miscommunication was that Kennedy's advisers thought the Soviet missile base in Cuba was deliberately laid out just like the ones in Russia so that the US would recognize it as a threat. Years later, the Red Army colonel in charge of building the base was asked about this, and said "No, we just did it that way because that's what the field manual said to do." All the military personnel present nodded in understanding.)
So it's a launcher, not an ICBM.
Redstone used LOX/Alcohol so yes. The early Titans also used some cryogenics. However later Titans used storable toxic hypergolic liquid fuels. Some even had solid first stages. India already has the Agni family of missiles with solid first stage, why would they use cryogenic engines for nukes? Sure they could use it for a small batch of revenge weapons to hit China, think modified Agni family with cryogenic 3rd stage, but that would have limited use.
Professor Jonathan Vos Post here, forgot my password on /. over a year ago.
YES! India will be in Moon-race 2: The Sequal.
China, last month, becamse the 3rd country to put a person in orbit. Japan said "Big deal, we could have done that 20 years ago" but is actually in the race, and has been openly planning Moon Bases for 20 years (especially at Shimizu and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries).
India will be the 4th country to put a person in space, unless Japan bothers first. The European Space SAgency (ESA) is deeply in the race. Several countries have suggested that they, too, are in the race. For instance, Pakistan (which has been playing "Escalatio" (as Tom Leher puts it) with India forever. Brazil, the space superpower of South America, will do it. Nigeria or Saudi Arabia or some other Petro-nation will do it, with a propane-oxygen or kerosine-LOX rocket.
I know all this as I was in the Moon-base design group at Rockwell International, presenting papers at international conferences and talking with japanese, Chinese, Russian, European, and Indian "rocket scientists."
There IS a new space race. That's part of why Emperor Bush II will announce our participation in this round either 17 Dec 2003 (Wright Bros. First Flight Centernnial) or State of the Union Address.
Moon-race 2. This time, we stay. This time, it matters.
That's it! You write scripts for Stargate: SG1, don't you?
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
When we say poverty in india, we mean being unable to provide oneself even with daily bread.
There is no govt. program (at least one that works), to educate, support or at the least feed the really really poor indians. Any money generated thru welfare organizations is socked up internally by politicians and officials.
The fast rise of Islam and Christanity in India is mainly due to FREE food provided by the mosques and churches to poor people. I am not a religiously biased person, so I am not critisizing either one, But when a religion starts to get converts because it provides free food, instead of its principals and ideologies, you start wondering about the entire system.
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
Lockheed even provided technical assistance that happens to improve the reliability of chinese ICBM's
Lockheed makes great hardware, but there is no need to fear. China bought into Microsoft's Shared Source nonsense, so their ICBMs will need frequent reboots and will more than likely be disabled by some worm written by a 13 year old Samoan.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
1. USA (fucking scary, but read the doc's!)
2. (far behind) Israel
3. (even bigger gap) India
4. (tie) Pakistan, France, China, N. Korea
Every corner ?
...
Only in black neighborhoods for they are the only sizable group of racist left in this country.
Ever been to mainstream African American web boards ?
You would be surprised
Not quite. India and China have had an ongoing border dispute for many years now. The two countries view one another with suspicion and are engaged in an arms race.
Best wishes,
Mike.
Yeaharrr finally things are getting back on track, and mankind is starting to remember who and what we are, and what we are for, finally the Adventure continues....
in my life God comes first.... but Linux is pretty high after that
Francis Smit
The government should try to solve that problem rather than make cryogenic rockets, in my opinion.
Rather than? Why not tackle both problems? do you think that in a country this big, with such a high pool of capable people, there'd be enough people only to tackle one problem at a time? Get down from your high chair - when the united states was preparing for their moon mission, they had enough social and economic problems of their own - you do not tackle problems one at a time - that way, you'd get to a decent level only after a million years.
"When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail." - Abraham Maslow (1908-1970)
You seem to have left out Russia, which has still has lots of deployed ICBMs (about as many as the US). Russia is more unstable than the US by orders of magnitude, and remains quite paranoid.
Also, the issue of first strike means different things in different conditions. A fourth generation nuke (i.e. low yield, very little fallout) used as a bunker buster is a relatively insignificant event compared to a cold-war style counter-force first strike or a retaliatory anti-population strike.
Furthermore, the political acceptability of anything other than a highly limited, low collateral damage (fourth generation) pre-emptive attack is extremely low in the US, UK and Israel. Even such a limitted attack would have enormous political repercussions in those three countries. The idea that the US is at the top of the list of those politically likely to launch an attack is absolutely insane.
I'd give a quite different order of probabilitites:
India - miscalculation or response to radical Islamic takeover of Pakistan.
Pakistan - result of miscalculation or radical Islamic takeover.
Al Qaeda - using purchased/furnished NK or Iranian (or even Russian) weapon smuggled to civilian target.
Israel - fourth generation pre-emptive strike against Iranian nuclear capabilities.
Iran - (against Israeli population centers - see this and this.) Iran and North Korea have been closely cooperating, trading Iranian money for North Korean capabilities, including long range missiles and probably nuclear weapons. Iran has its own Uranium enrichment facilities sufficient to produce weapons grade Uranium, and North Korea has a supply of Plutonium, and a Uranium enrichment program at an unknown stage of progress. Both nations have local Uranium mines. A large contingent of North Korean scientists are living in Iran, indicating that the nuclear programs may be as deeply coupled as the historic ties between the US and UK in that field.
US, UK - fourth generation strike against deep underground targets in Iran or North Korea), or strategic retaliation against terrorist supporting regimes after an Al Qaeda nuclear attack in the US.
NK - as part of an attempted conquest of the south, as a dying spasm of the regime, or less likely, as a response to a US pre-emptive strike against nuclear facilities and stockpiiles.
China - either as an extension of an Indo-Pakistani conflict, or a Taiwan crisis.
USSR (major counter-force strike against US as a result of a mistake or rogue elements in the SRF)
France - no plausible scenario until about 2050, which it becomes Dar-al-France (Islamic dominated France).
Note that only a few of these scenarios result in major nuclear war, and some (the fourth generation attacks) are only nominally nuclear, in that they are low yield with essentially no residual radiation.
Also note that all of the nuclear powers probably have the capability of using Fusion boosting to create high yield weapons, and many are probably capable of fielding true two-stage thermonuclear weapons.
Fourth generation weapons are speculative. The physics are discussed in one unclassified reference, and the recent defense spending authorization most likely funds some fourth generation research and testing. Such weapons are especially useful for bunker busters (funded) and anti-ballistic missile systems (I hope that the US ABM system is secretly using them).
By far the most deadly threat is STILL Russia. Note that this >a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/missileers/fals ealarms.html">came close as recently as 1995 when a scientific sounding rocket, launched in the arctic, was misinterpreted by the aging Russian radar system as a sub-launched EMP first-phase attack. Yeltsin activated his football and had an estimat
The only good weather is bad weather.
You assume that we can throw a bunch of rocket scientists and a few hundred crores at the caste problem and it will go away. Look at USA in the 60s - very active in the space program and the segregation/racial attitude was sickening. It is easier to launch space missions compared to changing the perceptions and attitudes of a nation of a billion people.
Any justification for India being on top of your list???
You seem to be severely misinformed. India advocates the policy of no first-use of nukes. And the reason you give is flimsy because India can steam roll Pakistan in any conventional war like it did in 1965, 1971 and 1998(a small one) when Pakistan tried to invade Kashmir. The best chance of India using nukes first is if and when China invades it like it did in 1962 when India was brutalized. I would put North Korea,Pakistan, Israel before India in that list.
Here are some links to substantiate my argument.
link1
link2
This article directly nullifies your ranking of India above Pakistan
link3
One more potential use has come to my attention since I wrote the article above.
...
From here we see a threatened (12/5/2002) Russian use (apparently of nuclear weapons) to destroy the population of Chechnya:
Question: Shamil Basayev is threatening Russia with nuclear terrorism. Should we be frightened?
Answer: If Chechen terrorists attempt to seize a nuclear power station or spread radioactive materials to pollute the air and land, it will amount to proclaiming a nuclear war on Russia. The reply will be ruthless for Chechens.
If Chechens resort to nuclear blackmail, there will be no Chechnya to fight for.
The only good weather is bad weather.
India is at the top of the list because of the instability of Pakistan. It does not mean that India is especially aggressive or desires to make such an attack.
However, given the instability of Pakistan, it is possible that India will find it necessary to enact a counter-force strike against Pakistan for its own survival, in conditions where Pakistan is taken over by Isamic fundamentalists of a certain stripe. I do not know if such a strike is practical, however, in which case India would instead be forced to rely on nuclear deterrent by threatening (as opposed to attacking) Pakistani population centers.
Thus India might have to strike first because it has no choice. It is not at the top of the list because it is viewed as the most aggressive, which it certainly is not. It is at the top of the list because it is in the most danger.
Rolling over Pakistan in a conventional war would not be sufficient to remove the Pakistani nuclear capability, and in fact would almost certainly trigger a Pakistani nuclear strike, especially under the circumstances posited.
India also needs to maintain a deterrent against China, and Pakistan acts as a Chinese proxy to some extent, having apparently received considerable nuclear aid from China. However, the likelihood of a nuclear war with China is far lower, IMHO because China is far more careful and is hence adequately deterred at this time.
Certainly in terms of the big picture, the large power rivalry is between India and China, not India and Pakistan. But the nuclear arming of Pakistan changes the equation radically, allowing it to greatly threaten India's population centers. Combining that with the political volatility thus makes Pakistan more immediately dangerous to India than China.
Thus, if a high probability even is the takeover of Pakistan by Islamic fundamentalists, and there are not adequate safeguards to prevent them from launching a first strike, India would be almost compelled to launch a counter-force strike - not out of aggressive intend but out of self defense. Hence its ranking on the list.
As far as "no first use" doctrines, those go out the middle the first nanosecond after a huge threat arises which can only be neutralized with first use!
I would not be surprised to find India working hard on fourth generation nuclear weapons for use against Pakistani nuclear facilities and also for use in theater ABM systems. If they can get them working, it allows the reduction of the Pakistani threat without crossing the true nuclear threshold (which is the use of large yield weapons which create radioactive fallout).
The only good weather is bad weather.
forget cryogenic rockets!
use a giant gun and a giant bullet with a man inside it and shoot it at the moon!
It's been 30 years since anybody went to the Moon. We're about due.
Consider the early history of Antarctic exploration -- there was the "South Pole Race" in the 1909-1912 era (Shackleton, who didn't quite make it, then the real race between Amundsen and Scott), then essentially nothing (except for the Byrd aerial expeditions in the 30s) for about 35 years until the US Navy's Operation Highjump after WWII and then full-time permanent bases since IGY in 1957.
I for one welcome our new Selenite overl^W^W^W^W a return to the Moon.
-- Alastair
Nope - Punjab is a stinking third-world shithole.
BTW - pretty courageous of you to use racial epithets while hiding behind Anonymity. Is that something they teach in Pubjabi schools? Or is that the inherent "reverse discrimination is good for diversity" nature of American publik/higher edwakation skool systems?
A lot of the so-called lepers are fakes who were forced to or chose to cut off body parts because they were so poor. Not like that makes it any better.
Chinese rockets were used for more than entertainment. They were one of the key weapons in the Battle of Kaifeng almost 800 years ago (1232 AD).
Shut up, nigger.
The US is different type of country. It is a new country, has no historical baggage to carry. Even then the US had open racism till 1960s. Things have really improved since then for sure, but that's due to almost a quasi-revolution by young hippies who challenged the system and also due to very fast changing economy.
Traditional countries like those in europe don't accept social changes as fast as the US.
But I am unhappy about the Indian situation due to the fact that people are too rigid in their belief, language and customs. It will involve a lot of introspection on part of Indians to get rid of the caste problem. It will required free, individual thinking, thinking out of the box on social issues, which is very difficult in India. The communist system in China has served them well removing all the social barriers which existed at the time of revolution.
You're right - black people really care about Punjabis calling Texans "honkies."
Thats just the sort of thing that gets the NAACP and brothas and sistahs frothing at the mouth about "da man."
Can ya sense the sarcasm, or do I have to point it out as well?
Rapid technological development, large scale persecution of minorities, impunity for perpetrators of mass crimes.
More like 12. Unless you are counting that period where they were the "Evil Empire" that required Star Wars in the first place. *That* would have been 20 years ago.
I've got a bad attitude and karma to burn. Go ahead. Mod me down.
"now that both China and India who have enough money to "play space race" they should also have the money to pay back their external debt". here's one ultra nationalistic Indian whose responses you have been waiting for... very interesting to note that you have come up with an impeccable logic. India has to pay up ALL its international debts before doing anything in their own backyard...,right!(no wonder! In a country who's premier is so logical, these things are bound to happen). so, in the same lines of reasoning, let me ask you a few questions... 1. with the crime rate in US so high, why don't you guys clear up everything there, see to it that you have 0% crime rate and all the people out there live in peace and harmony, and then come out with your international policing stuff...(big bossing all the lil countries out there, destroying a whole nation in the pretext of building up peace, etc) 2. with your economy SUPER STABLE (!) and the unemployment rate alarmingly high, ask all your countries' companies to give jobs to your people instead of running behind our INDIAN brians for anything and everything... my sincere request...first check out the dirt in your back, before cleaning up somebody else's...
Hmm, let me see, from India's perspective , the bigger challanges are ....
Perhaps you wanted to say "an Indian's perspective" as opposed to "India's perspective". Surely, you don't claim to represent all of India, do you?
Poverty :- The country's wealth is divided by the 90-10 rule. i.e. 10% of the population has 90% of the wealth.
With all due respects, you weren't talking about poverty, but wealth distribution. The US, as a matter of fact, has a much worse wealth distribution than India; I believe the figure is more like 99-1. Or something like that; please correct me if I'm wrong.
Point being, the great challenge for India is greater wealth creation and not just a fairer wealth distribution. Which is exactly what our new focus on science and technology will do; more investment, more jobs, greater talent.
Illiteracy :- More than 50%. And since being literate means being able to sign your name, the actual figures could be as high as 70-75%
In the BiMaRu cow-belt, yes. Much of the North East has a very high literacy rate (78-ish), Kerala already has 100%, TN and Karnataka's are in the 80's and 90's, and Andhra Pradesh is apparently set to achieve 100% literacy by 2005.
Infrastructure :- One of the world's worst .
Seen the new Pune - Mumbai highway?
So much Red tape everywhere.
This, by rights, is a point different from infrastructure, but again, to strike a positive note, google for "e-seva" in Andhra Pradesh.
Transportation and Safety :- Barring major cities, public transport is a mess and not every one can afford their own vehicle. Road/Rail accidents account for most no. of deaths in the country.
Public transport is a mess in many of the world's interior regions, but again, the breakdown is more regional than anything; Karnataka's KSRTC, for instance, has an extensive bus system, while other states have much less
humbly pointing out what our top priorities should be.
Indeed, this is where you and I disagree; by no stretch of anyone's imagination should we think that our scientific goals are our "national" priorities that take precedence over all the, valid I must add, problems India faces, even going by financial allocation alone. My point is that there's a lot of policy initiative and some good work done on all of the problems you've mentioned, but that we need political and, perhaps, bureaucratic, leadership to tackle them. That is to say, our social problems should not be confused with our technological goals; the first is tackled by bureaucrats and politicians, the second by scientists in their field of interest. Two different things.
More to the point, we apparently have one of the world's largest bases of scientific talent, and for sure, we can't match salaries they'd get elsewhere. One bloddy good way of making talent stay in the country is by setting challenging technological goals and adding liberal doses (pun unintended) of patriotism to make the talent achieve them.
But again, you are absolutely right; corruption, low literacy, bad infrastructure and so on are endemic problems, and I, for one, wish for some stronger political leadership in tackling those. (Obviously, and this is perhaps where we'll agree, while there has been some good work, I don't quite think there's enough energy being devoted, at least on a national level)
More than mere navel gazing.
How is it then, the high majority of nuclear testing is still being done by the U.S.? Why does the U.S. need to continue to poliferate if what you say is true? The only people in the WORLD to have used a nuclear weapon against anyone else are the U.S.!!!! And two of them!!! Please spare me the rhetoric about first strike. The only country I would deem MAD enough to start a nuclear strike IS the U.S. Look at Iraq, even without U.N. backing they decide to attack another nation. Thats not aggressive is it? And why the hell is the U.S. developing "new" types of nuclear weapons? What the hell have you lot learned?
SWEET FUK ALL.
You wonder why there is so much angst against the U.S... and look at your attitude. You dont even realise that the biggest nuclear whore and weapons maker is the U.S. itself???!!! And for what? Nuclear domination?? Where are your brains?? Dominate WHAT?!! You have a huge number of starving and dying people in your own country, and you cant seem to fix it.. and you preach to the rest of the world about the beauty of democracy and capitalism. Ho bloody ho.. I hope you sleep well in your nice house, with your nice bed, with your nice nuclear weapons, while many of your own country men and women freeze in the cold. Talk about slightly maligned priorities..
First it was India and China over Assam and now!
Although India has developed an cryogenic rocket engine, why does everyone point fingers at it being trigger happy. I mean, for comparison, look at the US- basically, they have declared more wars, and have shown interest in pursuing smaller nuclear bombs- esp to attack bunkers.
It seems to me the americans are far more likely to pull the trigger than India.
I am afraid that your nationalistic blind got the best of you. You are comparing apples to oranges, but I will bite. 1. The crime rates in India are rather high too. 2. The sound logic of your government to enter an arms race with Pakistan ove a piece os sh*t land known as Kashmir. Whoah... Is the world supposed to be impressed over your handling of affairs. 3. What is the poverty level in India darling, before you come and critizise another nation's economy as "unstable" better take a look at India's economic "might"
I think he had moved back to Tennessee(where his parents live) after he graduated(we went to a New England University - where I'm now a graduate student)
Sure He does. Read "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman. Gods are born when people believe in them, and they die when nobody does anymore. It's simple, really.
This is not part of my post. It's my signature. I bet you're disappointed.
Plaugue?? Hmmmm... shows how outdated you are.
We did have plague like US has smallpox and Ebola.
Try managing and feeding a billion citizens WITHOUT importing food stuffs, and i think you will appreciate how hard a work we are doing.
US can first start off by not brutalizing its blacks, provide equal job opportunities for white and black citizens...quit Iraq.. apologize for Vietnam..
Hmmmmm... there's a lot the US can do to make the world a safer place, instead of ranting about how india is a trigger-happy country...
Why would India first-strike Pakistan if they could win without one -- and without the political fallout of using them. Especially when using them might draw China into the conflict?
Germany and the US conducted a total war when both had toxic-gas weapons, and neither used them. Why not? Because if one side did, the other would too. It was the earlier, non-nuclear battlefield MAD.
That said, China or Israel would probably be involved in the next war. [China either against India or the US over Taiwan and possible SK and Japan] The wildcard is Russia, who might get involved in anything nuclear if China gets involved. Russia may be the real factor in China not using a nuke aggressively. If the US or India and China got into a no-holds-barred pissing contest, Russia might well take some potshots at the smoking Chinese rubble.
The part where an anonymous piece of shit directs a racial slur that doesn't even apply to me towards my person.
By your skewed logic I am a also spaghetti-code writing Indian, an Indian-nuking Paki, an industrious east/north asian in a sweatshop churning out uselss shit to fuel "western" Kapitalism, a yermulke-wearin' IDF soldier putting bullets in 9-year-olds, or a fanatic Ahab the Arab blowing up a holocaust survivor.
Nope.... I ain't no brotha yo. Ah ain't even from da projekts - yo no whum sayin'?
You're right - posting useful information that has some edwuamakational content, as well as knowing what you're talking about - is definitely "Troll" behaviour.
Boy... do I have to stoop down to the level of pointless M$ bashing, or posting goatse links to get any kind of positive moderation????
I am an Indian, too. Where do you guys get these stats?
1. Wealth distribution. 90% of the _world's_ wealth is in the hands of 10% of its population. It applies for the US, too. What led to this irrelevant stat - oh, poverty. Yes poverty is a problem. But if you look at recent economic indicators, the proportion living below the poverty line has fallen from 36 per cent ten years ago to 27 per cent. That's economic empowerment for you, 90 million people (one-third of the USA population) coming over the poverty line in a decade.
2. Illiteracy: Yes, it is a problem. The sheer numbers of people to be educated, with the resources of a developing country. But the CIA World Factbook lists literacy rates as 59.5% (not illereracy, literacy rates). Your assumption of 75% is not based on any estimate I've ever seen or experienced in real life.
3. Corruption: Are you saying India's unique in this? Check out India's corruption ranking in Transparency International's report. India is 83 of 133. But media and public awareness of corruption is high, and occassionally something does happen to corrupt people.
4. Infrastructure: Where do you stay? In Bangalore, I can see the visible improvements in infrastructure over the last 8 years. Granted, there is room for improvement, but there have been dramatic improvements in power, telephony, bandwidth and lifestyle infrastructure.
5. Public Transport is a mess. May I refer you to LA? And from where do you get stats that say Road and Rail accidents cause most deaths in the country? There is absolutely no basis for this. More Indians die from heart attacks than die in all accidents.
6. Disaster Recovery: National and State Disaster Recovery Management Centres are being built / some are operational already.
Again, how is this relevant to the topic? Would you be able to qualtify the spinoffs that space programs generate? I've visited the ISRO Sriharikota Space Launch Centre. You'd be amazed at the way they operate - without much investments and out of pretty poor facilities, these guys have built a highly competitive launch programme. The spinoffs that have already been commercialised range from food-preservation techniques to accurate weather prediction and wait for it - disaster recovery-.
I get extremely irritated by those wiseacres who _humbly_ point out what India's priorities should be. Any country as large and complex as India has a lot of dynamics that need to be managed in development. It is naive and simplistic to expect problems like poverty and illiteracy (which are symptoms, not illnesses, by the way), to be tackled before space research / high technology / computerization / whatever.
> I am not a westerner trying to judge india, I am
> an indian , humbly pointing out what our top
> priorities should be.
From the tone of your post, definitely an "American Desi".
I agree with most of the "challenges" you mentioned but the challenges are slowly being tackled (I bet you perceptions are based on your decade back residence in India and a 7 day visit/year to India).
India has to develop on all fronts otherwise India may find that 10 years down the line when all the challenges have been overcome, it has been left behind on the technological front!
-- T. Kumar
Strategically Pakistan is a dead end for end India - no energy resources, strategic position/commodities and lots of friends who would get angry (including 100+m people internal to India). And Pakistan can also hit back.
Who has all this stuff that India will want and need and will be dumped by their friends if India grab for it?
Look at a map.
Why has India being building a blue water navy?
Where could they go with it?
Australia. Unless you think India wants to take on another 100+m Muslims by annexing Indonesia.
We won't be a target for India in the next 10 years but by then India's population/resource profile is going to look a lot nastier than it is now.
Remove tinfoil hat
The Singularity is closer than you think
Quant
It even has a hydrogen bomb.
1. Its Pakistan not "Pakinstan"
2. Pakistan doesn't have a reliable delivery system, aside from their planes.
3. They don't have enough warheads.
Shit you are a dumb ass red neck slack jaw inbred hick.
- Slavery was a nice idea in America by the colonists
- I guess keeping Japanese Americans in camps in WW II is OK
- Cultural genocide, theft of their lands and subjagation of native Americans was OK
- Removing due process and flaunting the Geneva convention in Guantanamo Bay is also OK
I believe you seek your moral guidance from your fuhrer. John Ashcroft the facist
India would first-strike Pakistan if they calculated (either correctly or not) that an Al Qaeda/Taliban style regime would represent too much of a threat, and that the first strike would be effective.
In the case of WW-II, it may be that the only reason that Germany did not use toxic weapons was that Hitler had personally been gassed in WW-I and thus chose not to use them.
Furthermore, WW-I had shown that gas weapons were not that effective if both sides used them. Saddam used them more effectively against Iran but that was because Iran was using poorly equipped suicide mass charges, against which gas is more effective.
The only good weather is bad weather.
hmmm...somebody comes back to reply too...thats nice...c'mon, i am not that dumb to compare Indian economy to urs, or for that matter any other aspect of India with ur country. i was impressed with ur logic of "paying out all debts bfore doing anything else". i just wanted to let u know that things in world dont work that way. it is a fact that indians play an important role in shaping up ur country. u gotta accept that. and i better remind you of sh*t lands like kuwait before you people comfortably forget things of the past in the glory of the present. i still roll down the floor in laughter when i hear things like "saving iraqi people from the fists of their dictator". n.b: dont worry, things like "we should resolve the issue by bilateral talks and a continual process of mutual understanding" that are dished out regularly here give me a healthy dose of laughter. the point is, all are sailing in similar boats. you plug ur boat's hole while i plug mine. no point giggling at the other boat's hole. you might end up down under.
Helping the poor is a Christian principal. Likewise, zakat or alms-giving is one of the five pillars of Islam.
It's amazing how much "mature wisdom" resembles being too tired. - Robert Anson Heinlein
Back when the US space program was at its height in the early 70's, racism and bigotry were even larger problems in that country than they are now. Going to the moon may not have solved those problems directly, but perhaps it demonstrated that humanity can evolve and achieve goals we set ourselves. The rationale for a caste system is fear of change. Space exploration is as much about embracing change as a national way of life as it is about rupee-generating research benefits.
// DevsVult: The Machines Will It
Right... that must be it. Time to go back to the 'hood., back to mah hoes, and back to stuffin' myself full of PCP, crack and cheap malt liquor... TTYL!!!
Even the most hardline of Mullahs in Pakistan don't advocate nuking innocent civillians in India, whether they are non-Muslims or not. Pakistan is using the nukes as a deterrant, because they could easily lose a land invasion by India. That's why they said any land invasion or air attack by India will result in nuclear retaliation. India doesn't have to reciprocate the offer, they can put out the "we fire second" offer so they win more friends in the international world. They wouldn't have to strike first with nukes at all, they have enough conventional weapons to totally take Pakistan out to begin with. I agree with you, the "no first use" doctrine is worthless, its a promise they can break, there wouldn't be enough of the country left to sanction anyway.
The good thing is nobody is willing to sacrifice millions of their own just so they can fight the other.
Iran's #2 mullah, Rafsanjani, has indeed said he is willing to sacrifice millions in order to destroy Israel. Pakistan is a different situation. The biggest danger to the US with Pakistan is that an Islamist takeover would result in nukes which could be given to terrorists, and which might be detonated anonymously in the US, with the source unknown (was it Pakistan? Iran? North Korea? stolen Russian Nuke?).
Perhaps indeed India would not perceive the threat to itself as high enough to instantly attack, in which case my ranking is wrong. However, in an unstable situation where terrorists might acquire the nukes, India would certainly face the same risk as the US: terrorist use of Pakistani nukes, which is a pretty terrible threat.
My guess: if India could achieve a successful first strike (i.e. a destruction of Pakistani nukes with extremely low risk of nuclear retaliation against population centers), they would probably do so - especially if doing so did not require hitting population centers. If they could not, then it is hard to say what would happen. Perhaps the United States would feel compelled to do so, perhaps using precision non-nuclear weapons.
The only good weather is bad weather.