Domain: k12ltsp.org
Stories and comments across the archive that link to k12ltsp.org.
Comments · 180
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Linux in Education
We utilize linux terminal services to create a 2:1 student:productivity workstation ratio at a fraction of the cost of proprietary solutions. Entrenched vendor relationships cost US education systems millions of needlessly spent dollars.
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Re:Linux ready?? Answer these
1. Will Flash media, WITH SOUND, work out of the box?
Been awhile since I've installed. However, I don't remember having to do more than install Flash (sudo apt-get install flashplugin-nonfree). Sound worked, and non-Firefox browsers work also.
2. What about VPN?
This post will be submitted via a VPN. In fact, currently all traffic, including DNS, is routed through that VPN.
3. What about wireless?
Yes, and out of the box. That's more than I can say for XP.
4. Any specialty software?
Some yes, some no. However, at what point would Linux become ready? There is specialty software which does not work on the Mac, and no one claims that's not ready for the desktop. There's even specialty software which does not work on Windows.
5. Printing?
Point-and-click, out of the box, no need to install drivers or anything. Try to add a network printer, it'll even scan the local subnet for anything listening on port 631.
I don't print often -- I don't need paper often. But I often remember asking people, "Can I borrow your printer?" and being able to print something maybe 30 seconds after plugging it into a USB port. I can't ever remember this not being the case -- I honestly can't remember printing ever being a problem.
6. Educational software?
There are whole distros designed specifically for education.
7. Stuff to keep the kids away from nasty sites?
Anything on the local machine is doomed to failure. Kids know more about this stuff than you do. Hey, maybe they'll try Linux themselves, on a Knoppix CD, where your "stuff to keep them away from nasty sites" won't work.
However, filtering at the ISP level is quite common, as an option. Sure, in the long run, it'll be broken also, but it's really a bit more effective, and works equally well with all OSes.
8. Home automation?
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Here's a few ideas...
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K12LTSP
They've taken technology from other projects (ie Linux Terminal Server Project) and built a great package. It's being used in schools world-wide. Here's the link:
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k-12 LTSP is interesting
The site http://k12ltsp.org/ discusses the how and why of a charter school that switched to Open Source, running decent servers on the back end, and dumb/cheap clients on the front end. There is quite a bit of discussion on the site about the benefits, and challenges that you would face.
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Re:Create a portable lab
He really needs to look at K12LTSP and get on the mailing list for this question. It has been asked quite a few times in the last seven years.
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Open Letter to Mark Williams, President, AISDOpen letter to:
Mark Williams, District 5, President, Austin Independent School District.
Dear Mr. Williams:
As you may or may not be aware, it appears that a teacher in your district recently disciplined her student for demonstrating open source software to his/her classmates.
IMPORTANT: The article http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/08/12/10/001236.shtml about this is going viral on the web.
I can assure you that educators need to understand that Open Source Software is, by it's very nature, free. Free to use, free to distribute and free to copy. Further to that, Open Source Software can save your school board 10's of thousands of dollars in licencing and royalty fees. Replacing Windows and/or Microsoft Office is now easy. Furthermore, going forward, upgrades are free too.
More and more schools and school boards are adopting Linux and Open Office http://www.openoffice.org/. Open Office is a mature, fully-featured, standards compliant Open Source office suite which adheres to fully open document standards and can open and create virtually any MS Office document, spreadsheet or presentation. Linux is virtually virus-free, stable and secure. Special versions of it are designed for schools. Here's one: http://k12ltsp.org/
The most important thing about Open Source Software is that it helps to level the playing field. Less advantaged students can take home legal copies of software and use and install them legally at home.
All I would ask is this:
- Please educate your teaching staff about the advantages of Open Source Software.
- Please have your IT department review its costs and look at the savings to be had.
- Please do what you can to help give all kids the same opportunities.
Thank you in advance for your time in looking into this matter.
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Re:Thin clients
I setup an LTSP setup a year ago and it is brilliant. We got one powerful machine (quadcore CPU, 4 GB RAM, etc.) and plug all the old machines we can get into a gigabyte switch connected to this server. Just plug it in, make it boot from the network and you got another (fast) machine to work on. I used K12LTSP 5EL (based on CentOS 5) and it just works out of the box. http://k12ltsp.org/
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Re:You mean like...
http://k12ltsp.org/ that has been around and available for years? It's based on Fedora but everything is there for a standard office environment.
This looks pretty much identical to what Edubuntu does for you. I run Edubuntu at home for the simple reason that I like sitting down in front of $RANDOM_AVAILABLE_COMPUTER and being right at home.
db
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You mean like...
http://k12ltsp.org/ that has been around and available for years? It's based on Fedora but everything is there for a standard office environment.
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Re:When is the last time Dvorak...
That depends on where you look. LTSP works wonderfully in many situations. It is especially popular in educational institutions. I use it myself in a couple of small business environments.
Again, it's a wonderful solution in many situations. -
Re:Reports of a Linux Boom
No - like Debian Edu, or K12LTSP. Schools save money, but more important, sysadmin teachers can go back to teaching and stop running around ghosting the PCs at least once a week. Besides, at the 11-12 level many of the kids are already familiar with Linux.
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Re:"LTS" is Linux Terminal Server
Linux terminal server...
http://www.ltsp.org/ the core project.
http://www.k12ltsp.org/ a turnkey setup for schools just add crappy old throw away PC's and you have instant terminals for that one fast server.
http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/linux _terminal_server TCO breakdown and executive overview of the above.
Implimenting a Linux terminal server environment is 90000% easier than citrix or windows, and is far FAR more stable. Many schools and business use such a setup. Autozone uses Linux terminal server in every store. -
Re:The real truth of software costs in schools
The original poster is also ignoring extra hardware costs to run Windows. Look at this slashdot reply:
http://slashdot.org/articles/02/05/21/196252.shtml ?tid=146
Using the Linux terminals server projects, you can give lots of kids computer access on cheap (or otherwise obsolete) hardware:
http://www.k12ltsp.org/
Not only do you save on proprietary software licensing costs, you also also save on all the latest hardware costs. -
Congratulations to them, but...
Yes, congratulations. However, they are building on years of effort by the Kindergarten to 12th grade Linux project, and other such projects. The K12Linux Project was originally started for the Multnomah County Education Service District, using hardware donated by Intel. (Intel does some of its processor design in a big facility which is also in Portland, Oregon, USA.)
Perhaps 8 years ago, one of the founders of the K12Linux project told me that the total cost of maintenance of Linux was less than half that of Windows. (He gave a figure much less than half, but I don't remember the actual figure.)
My experience with Windows is that it is sloppily coded, and lots of things cause Windows to need maintenance. For example, the CPU hogging bug in Firefox, which seems to be worse in Firefox version 2.0.0.4, sometimes causes Windows XP Professional SP2 to become unstable and require re-starting the computer. When Firefox hogs the CPU under Linux, it is only necessary to kill Firefox. Linux remains stable.
If Microsoft paid schools $100 per copy to take Windows, the cost of Windows would still be far higher than K12Linux.
The K12Linux Project home page gives links to other Linux-in-schools projects, also.
A side benefit of Linux is that it is much more secure, partly because of its design, and partly because students are less likely to know how to tinker with it, I was told.
It is far easier to maintain a terminal server with numerous simple terminals, than separate stand-alone computers, too, and Linux is fast enough to be used that way.
I feel a little uncomfortable with what I said above, because I am vastly understating the savings of using Linux rather than Windows. Microsoft can't even make "Microsoft Genuine Advantage" work correctly; that is a GENUINE disadvantage of Windows. (I am using the word "genuine" in its honest sense, not in its abusive public relations spin sense.)
Another problem with a Windows system is hiring people who are willing to work with products from a company such as Microsoft that is so abusive. It's tiring to work with abusiveness.
Again, I still feel uncomfortable because I am understating the case. My company has had considerable trouble with error messages from Windows Update, for example. We've had about 8 different kinds of problems, some of which have required hours to solve. Judging from the many, many complaints on the newsgroup, there seem to be many other kinds of Windows Update problems we haven't had.
People who work in IT sometimes like Microsoft because the sloppy Microsoft products give them more work. -
LTSP?
How about K12LTSP?
http://www.k12ltsp.org/ -
Linux Terminal Server Project (LTSP)
Get one server quality computer and load it up with Ram. The rest of the machines will be thin clients and can be just about anything down to a Pentium I. You can even run the machines diskless. You'll want a good 10/100 switch and at least a 100Mb NIC in the server. There will be a lot of information traveling across your network. I've done setups like this for kids in similar situations with donated hardware. One cool thing about this is that the students have the same experiences no matter what machine they sit down and log into. They don't have to be at one particular machine because that is where they saved their work. Definitely check it out. There is also a K-12 version for kids. Good luck. http://www.ltsp.org/ http://www.k12ltsp.org/
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this doesn't answer your question
but is a different way to stretch junk hardware.
Have you looked at Linux Terminal Server Project? Any old junk makes an adequate client, memory requirements are something like 64MB.
There's an there's an active LTSP community, including guys use it in schools: www.k12ltsp.org. -
Re:A missed PR opportunity for Microsoft
... If you're in the USA, Gates makes a lot of tax revenue, and keeps the govt happy. Now, what's happening software-wise in all those versions of Windows? The key: Do you trust your computer systems running a foreign countries OS? ...Wishful thinking there. MS is just as big a tax dodger in the US as it is in Europe. Just because you pay your taxes and your company pays it's taxes doesn't mean that either Big Bill or his company do so.
... The key: Do you trust your computer systems running a foreign countries OS? ...It gets even simpler. You can't trust any closed source code. Now, there is still some quality stuff out there that MS hasn't run out of business or bought out, but the bottom line is regardless of whether it's from the MS movement or from a normal company, if you don't have access to the code for the entire tool chain, it could contain just about anything.
However, you don't have to be technically oriented to know that MS presents a problem here. Just read the EULA for 2000 SP3, XP SP1, and 2003 and later. It says flat out that you grant admin rights to Big Bill or his designated representatives.
The bottom line is that the school and the teacher were asking for trouble when they risked it with MS Windows. MS has tried the same thing in many other school districts, sometimes with success and other times driving the whole district to more appropriate technology.
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Re:Depends
K12LTSP is a distro directly aimed at education.
and has all of the fun edutainment games.
Watching the 1st graders use TuxPaint and KTuberling has been quite enjoyable as they create wildly imaginative "artwork" ;)
http://www.k12ltsp.org/
free with a very large support community. -
Re:Protecting the kids
"Now, after this story, I am seriously faced with the prospect of never using the computer as an educational tool again."
K12LTSP and no internet connection should handle things for a group nicely, and on inexpensive gear too.
http://www.k12ltsp.org/
If you are that worried, there really are a number of solutions that flat will not allow anything on the system you didn't choose to put there.
Want to use your personal Winbox for demos but avoid the risk? Consider running a clean install in a virtual machine, or finding out if your software of choice will run from a WinPE/BartPE live CD. You could even post an Ask Slashdot question since the subject would be of interest.
Finaally, any "IT professional" should have plenty of extra machines for a personal demo box that would make using a potentially compromised machine unnecessary. If you want to leave it in one spot, get a machine with an easily removed hard disk. -
K12LTSP
As the Technology Admin for a small charter school, I'm faced with a tiny budget. Our school has a 2:1 workstation to student ratio...how? Donated legacy boxes and http://www.k12ltsp.org/K12LTSP>! All the productivity, none of the bells and whistles (once properly implemented) none of the hassles. Try it, You'll like it!
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LTSP - Linux Terminal Server Project
Like those above have said, check out the Linux Terminal Server Project (LTSP) or a derivative like k12ltsp or Skolelinux. You can then keep using those old machines till they drop and then phase them out as they die. Many distros, like Ubuntu for example, already have LTSP client support.
EdTechLive has some excellent interviews on LTSP with staff that have rolled it out at their schools or, in some cases, districts. The sound quality in some of them is not so good, but the material is worth straining your ears for.
The schools in Portland, Oregon have been thriving on LTSP for some years now. -
Re:trade in some of those machines!
checkout http://k12ltsp.org/
Linux terminal server...slick, easy to roll out, and free! -
K12LTSP
is the easiest and cheapest way...
http://www.k12ltsp.org/ -
Red Hat High
What we really need is a Red Hat High or OLPC High. The school could be a remodel of an intercity school and could maximize the use of donated computers and systems. It should support the OLPC initiative by providing each student with an OLPC. Text books should be mostly replaced using electronic, open electronic text books.
This would demonstrate several items that contrast with the Microsoft school:
1) A very useful and functional school can be wired with very good, but donated/reclaimed gear at low cost.
2) Techniques such as Linux Terminal Server Project provide more value than Microsoft:
-- k12 LTSP
3) Open source can accomplish what Microsoft can't -- a technology-oriented school at a reasonable price
(no shiny new electronic whiteboards or brand-new Dell computers, just use modern white boards).
4) OLPC is very useful in the US (yes, it's not just for the 3rd world):
-- OLPC
5) Many digital texts and E-books are viable and ready for school use:
-- Wikiversity
-- Wikibooks
6) The cost to rewire such a school is more than made up through the use of e-books and through the
use of donated/reclaimed equipment.
7) The students can make contributions back to the education process (text books, software,
school architecture, etc.).
8) Open source can interoperate with those that have MS Word/Excel at home and can provide full,
unrestricted access for those that can't afford to pay for MS software.
-- OpenOffice
9) The ongoing costs to maintain such a school would be far lower than for Microsoft's proposed school
(text books, software licenses, hardware support, etc.).
Key points are: Availability, OLPC, free/inexpensive digital text books, student contributions,
lower up-front costs, and lower maintenance costs.
Of course, the down side is that much of the windows-only learning software won't run on Linux, like Magic School Bus (TM). Also, you can't play a DVD on Linux without illegal software (or is it gray-area software?).
Questions: How well do those applications run under Wine? What software really is required for a school?
Note, here in VA, we still have a school board rule that kids can be suspended for 10 days if they "alter, destroy, or erase computer data, or remove computer data or programs". They technically can't boot a computer (altering the logs), erase a file they created (destroying data), copy a file to a floppy (remove computer data), etc. Basically, the school board is clueless.... -
Re:The Bright Side...
Allow me to fill you in a bit: the reason for the choice of hardware is that I'm building a Linux server http://www.k12ltsp.org/ with some old, dumb work stations for a computer lab at a school of disadvantaged kids. This on my own time and my own dime. The idea is to end up with a model that can provide easy, cheap, reliable horsepower while leveraging some existing hardware. Laser printing has a net-net lower cost per page.
So, flame away. But remember that you're flaming someone who is giving kids a hand up, not a hand out. I'm just wondering what your contribution to society is. -
In my opinion Linux totally fits schools!
I think Linux is a superb choice for schools. There's a project in our country (Estonia) what tries to create a totally translated distro for our schools. I allready know of some schools that use Linux. In our school there is only two computers with Linux- the server and one computer that's not in the computer class. I see the use of the computer very often. I don't think people have too big problems with using Linux. It's not hard to have Linux in schools, there's allready lots of education applications, there's very many education distros. Linux is meant for schools. And if the "way of Linux" would be taught to kids, it would really help us create a better world. Children would learn collaboration, freedom, sharing and they would have a lot of applications they can use even if they don't have money. Currently 99.9% of the computer owners in our school have illegal software. They couldn't buy the Microsoft kind of software in any way. But even if a GPLed application is not free of charge, the school can give it to children free legaly! So I think Linux fits very well to schools. Be sure to check out this site: http://www.k12ltsp.org/
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Mincing words - the last time M$ sued a school
There's MS hate, and there's this. When was the last time MS sued a school, exactly? Never, that's right. Yes, MS did one time threaten to sue when it found rampant piracy in one district, but the gentleman/lady in question is obviously worried about license fees, so has no plans to pirate anything.
Man, the M$ shills are out in droves lately. I assume you are mincing words or playing with semantics in your capacity as active shill. MS went after lots of schools, at least in the US and in the UK. Who knows? Probably the same in other counties. Try searching a little for BSA or FAST and other branches of the main party, or even some semi-legitimate groups like BSI.Here's one example with what MS did in Portland, Oregon schools:
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,101601,0 0.asp Here are the results: http://www.seul.org/edu/acpe2002.html And here is the savings from just one school district dropping M$. Don't forget that the licensing fees are jus the tip of the ice berg. There are maintenance nightmares and hardware upgrades to deal with. http://www.k12ltsp.org/press_freedom_day.htmlYou can find many other cases where M$ went after schools. Did they sue? Maybe / maybe not. Did they threaten? youbetcha
Don't go on about "MS hate". It's called experience or brand recognition.
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K12 Linux
Also check out the K-12 Linux project. They have lots of info on installing and running Linux classroom workstations.
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Re:How about...
You probably ought to look at K12LTSP.
http://www.k12ltsp.org/
Two parent "volunteers" in the Atlanta metro area used this software to turn about 50 mostly useless Windows boxes into a set of servers and thin clients at an elementary school. As in your case the computers were old, slow, and running Win95 and Win 98. Now teachers are happy, parents are happy, principal is happy, and the School Board's IT Dept., which was _highly_ skeptical of the idea at first, is now looking at the installation as a "proof-of-concept" and giving serious consideration to making the transition at other schools. -
K-12Linux Project
K-12Linux Project
k12ltsp.org: Linux is free in terms of cost and in terms of development because it's based on Open Source software. We are free to adapt the work of others for use in our schools. This kind of freedom produces better software and makes Linux the right choice for schools and agencies concerned with the ethical use of public funds.
Most people who use Windows don't see past their nose when it comes to their computing needs. Look at the long term and where do you want your school in 5 years. Linux and Open Source IS keeping up and the software is readily available and with a little digging, your systems can be VERY compatible in a Microsoft world.
Me: When I am forced to use MS-Windows, I run it in VMplayer http://www.vmware.com/vmplayer. It is free. It is the best at running Microsoft software, especially ActiveX and DirectSound and a number of other gotches that cause other emulators to hiccup. You can even run it full screen and think you are on a Windows box. But having Linux run on your hardware will make it easier for anyone to manage. Go buy a copy of Mandriva 2006 at http://www.linuxcentral.com.
Also, I am running virus free with Linux for the past 8 years without the use of anti-virus software. To me, Linux IS the anti-virus software. But if you really think you need it, Linux has an external package available to do that for you. And if you get a virus on Windows running in VMplayer, simply reload the virtual drive image. No hassle!
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Linux Terminal Server?
This sounds like a job for Linux Terminal Server
http://www.k12ltsp.org/
http://www.ltsp.org/
I actually run this at home, and am writing this post from a VNC enabled Linux Terminal Server. The machines you are using sound old, so if you are willing to invest a little in server hardware, this could be a good option. If you have PXE boot capable network cards, then you can boot from the network into linux. If not then it can also be accomplished with boot disks. For the must have Windows software packages, you can use rdesktop http://www.rdesktop.org/ and setup a windows terminal server. This can get costly, but it works.
The downside to this setup is sound support. Another package out there that is supposedly quite good is no machine http://www.nomachine.com/
I have never used No Machine, but supposedly it is fast, supports sound, and Educational institutions get a 50% discount on the cost.
If you have any spare hardware kicking around, I would setup a Linux Terminal server and see how you like it. All it would take is one spare workstation that you can wipe and set up with linux. You could then easily enable all of your current machines to boot to the terminal server from floppy, and give it a trial. If it looks like it would fit the bill, then get a real server for it so you don't suffer from speed issues.
Cheers,
CB -
Ask the Portland (Oregon) Public SchoolsA few schools in Portland, Oregon, converted their computer labs from Windows boxes to a rack of application servers (running a modified version of Fedora Core) and cheap dummy terminals. In one high school they even use student volunteers to help run the lab. The teacher, for his part, only has to really maintain four machines, and the cost savings in hardware alone is enormous. You can get more information here and here.
Hope this helps.
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Only one way to go
The best (only!) way to survive adminning a school district is to convert every desktop machine to a diskless client., No hard drives, and no floppies on the desktop machines. (USB Key's are Ok for students and they don't have any moving parts or heads that need maintenance)
Stick one server in each room where there are more than N clients and make a subnet out of the room. N varies based on network speed, server size and typical client load.
Server is headless, keyboardless, mouseless, administered remotely.
Diskless clients almost never breakdown, and need very little RAM to run effectively.
All this concentrates your admin work to the servers and network equipment. (and replacing mice and kybds). And user accounts are more easily admined as well. Of course all user accounts should be managed on a centralized server/authorization system.
If licensing and managing licensing for all the servers and clients and user's email etc.. becomes problemsome or too expensive, all licensing concerns can be eliminated by using k12ltsp, a proven thin client system allready in operation at many schools in the USA and many other countries.
http://www.k12ltsp.org/ -
Video of what our kids say after 3 years of Linux.
Our high school switched to Linux 3 years ago. We're using K12LTSP for 110 desktops throughout our school. I asked students who had been using Linux for the last three years what they thought about it. Here's a video of what they said. Just click on the "What the kids say..." link.
Motto of K12LTSP: It works. It's free. Duh... Guess which part is hard to explain. ;-) -
Re:His comments on open source...
I couldn't agree more. I use K12LTSPin a secondary school setting and coupled with Pykota for printer quotas the school has managed to save quite a bit of money and provide more resources to students while making use of "junk" as thin clients. I do what I can to support these projects in technical support and $.
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Re:My school uses Linux too!
Take a look here
Gives a rough estimate on sizing of the server.
In my experience, anything at least pentium1 class works fine for a client.
Also, if you want to get up and running quickly, be sure to pull down the K12LTSP distro. Its basically the latest fedora with ltsp pre-configured and a bunch of educational software thrown in.
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Been doing this in HawaiiWe have been doing this, successfully, in Hawaii for the last few years. Yes it is true that FOSS can save schools tremendous amounts of money. However, one must remember that ripping and replacing for the sake of idealism serves no one.
Our method of advocacy has been to recycle computers that we in turn donate to schools and non-profits. More often than not we use the K12LTSP in order to take advantage of discarded hardware. It is critical to keep in mind that getting a school to embrace FOSS is only 16% of the work. The real challenge is in creating a competent culture of self-reliance and sustainability, aka Training.
Our position is that if an end-user is comfortable with the GUI in Windows or Mac, then the migration to FOSS is trivial. However, if one struggles with either of the proprietary distros, they can expect to be equally challenged by FOSS. The fact that it is free does not make it easier.
We are at a critical transition in our education system. Schools have no business spending taxpayer dollars on Commodity Computing Solutions. Most NCLB focused apps are web-based. Proprietary, curricula-enhancing apps purchased for stand-alone installs are an entrepreneurial opportunity awaiting you. Code an alternative that is more culturally sensitive to your district's needs. We can no longer afford to spend money on software and hardware that does not contribute to the value of education.
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Re:No kidding
One acronym: K12LTSP.
Use ancient PCs as diskless clients, the kind your school used to throw out when companies would donate them, cobble together an Athlon64 server, voila.
The kids can't screw up what they don't have access to. And Deep Freeze costs. K12LTSP is FREE. -
Re:The third world need wireless mesh.
http://ltsp.org/ and http://k12ltsp.org/ can boot this kind of setup, but you'll need another, low-powered server to store the boot images. It can then find the rdesktop sewrver and work from there. Piece of cake, and your employees may never know that Linux sits under the system at all.
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It works. It's free. Duh... They stole our mantra!Just do a google search for "it works. It's free. Duh"
So maybe they understand duh... -- K12LTSP.org
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Re:Small buisness
You've probably already seen/read about this but the best project going for thin client computing is the Linux Terminal Server Project, http://www.ltsp.org/. There is an even more brain dead solution, which I have been using at home and also in my dad's office, at http://www.k12ltsp.org/ which is a version of the LTSP designed especially for schools (hence the K12, Kindergarten - 12th grade in the US). They have great instructions and have packaged everything in an easy to use distro that really takes all the guesswork out of it. Most of the time I use an old Pentium with no hard disk and whatever floppy drive came with it (I'm too cheap to put boot roms in the network cards) to boot over the network. Give it a look see!
Chris -
Re:Small buisness
Interesting that you bring up XP and Terminal Services Licensing. With the introduction of Server 2003, Microsoft obsoleted the built in XP CAL. You must purchase a separate CAL for TS regardless of which OS you are running (or regardless of whether had a license to connect before) Terminal Services ...Thin-clients are rising in popularity again and it won't be long for them to become a familar site in small to large buisnesses. The only reason I can find to purchase Microsoft's XP thin-client is for those of us who would use it with terminal services. Terminal server requires a license for each connecting client, which a Windows OS has. One of the arguments I've heard against thin clients is the licensing fees for terminal service. Why purchase a $200 thin client and then a CAL license[1]when you can purchase a $400 full fledge desktop with XP? If my manager wasn't so strong against Office alternatives[2] a Linux server with OO.org would save the company a fortune. We wouldn't have to worry about costly maintenance[3] or extradanory licensing fees with an OSS thin-client. [1] can't recall how much a CAL costs [2] we're a government contractor and worried about compatibility [3] defrag, spyware, updates, corruption, etc
As Windows 2000 Server standard support is at EOL you might as well go with 2003 which runs TS very well and forget about which OS is on the client- you have to pay for it anyway.
My office runs thin clients or dumb terminals off the k12 terminal server project to grab the OS and connects to a 2003 server using rdesktop to connect to TS for the Windows software that we still *have* to use. -
Re:I don't think MS can compete
While not as nice as real thin clients, old junk machines can easily be made to be reliable with an LTSP network.
You can get a good bootable NIC for 20 bucks, remove local devices (hard drive, floppy, cdrom) and you have a pretty reliable machine.
Sure the CPU fan or the power supply can go out on your dumpster pentium 166s, but its not like you can't just take the NIC and put it in another junk machine.
I've outfitted a school with 60 workstations that my company has thrown away. Pentium 133s - P2 350s.
LTSP, specifically K12LTSP has been the perfect solution.
Save your money for network infrastructure, flat panel screens, and internet :) -
Kstars for astronomy, thin clients for old hwkstars is great for astronomy and I've run it on a PII with 128 MB RAM using the current debian stable (woody), though with the 2.2 kernel. On a PII it's slow but usable.
Regarding the over all setup, take a look at the thin client linux setup at Riverdale High School in Oregon.
For distros I'd recommend debian or something debian based like skolelinux or ubuntu.
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"The Network IS The Computer"The Linux Terminal Server Project http://www.ltsp.org/ has the corner on this market. The K12LTSP http://www.k12ltsp.org/ is the perfect choice of distro for "wow" factor. What other operating system would allow a person to put in a complete computer lab of, say 24 PCs, with a laser printer and LCD projector - with all "client access licenses" - for under $2000?
Try to do that with M$! It ain't happening!! ONLY Linux and only with Open Source Software. And it IS happening in classrooms across the nation and the world. My school district is a perfect example. I have done just that.
Now my students can login at any "thick" client (old Pentium I - 133's w/ 64 Mb RAM) and have access to all their desktop settings and files. No matter where they roam, their settings follow them. The thick clients are old "throw away" PCs or donated PCs from businesses or other schools. Our only cost is purchasing the server (with plenty of RAM), the printer and the LCD projector. We COULD even login to a Windows Terminal Server (IF we had one) and have access to all of our Window$ apps. Nothing beats the K12LTSP http://www.k12ltsp.org/ distro!
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"The Network IS The Computer"The Linux Terminal Server Project http://www.ltsp.org/ has the corner on this market. The K12LTSP http://www.k12ltsp.org/ is the perfect choice of distro for "wow" factor. What other operating system would allow a person to put in a complete computer lab of, say 24 PCs, with a laser printer and LCD projector - with all "client access licenses" - for under $2000?
Try to do that with M$! It ain't happening!! ONLY Linux and only with Open Source Software. And it IS happening in classrooms across the nation and the world. My school district is a perfect example. I have done just that.
Now my students can login at any "thick" client (old Pentium I - 133's w/ 64 Mb RAM) and have access to all their desktop settings and files. No matter where they roam, their settings follow them. The thick clients are old "throw away" PCs or donated PCs from businesses or other schools. Our only cost is purchasing the server (with plenty of RAM), the printer and the LCD projector. We COULD even login to a Windows Terminal Server (IF we had one) and have access to all of our Window$ apps. Nothing beats the K12LTSP http://www.k12ltsp.org/ distro!
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Re:First things first...
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We've been using K12LTSP for a year now...
And they're all running on old donated computers. The average computer in our lab is a PII 200-300 MHz with 128-256 RAM. The two things we purchased were a powerful Dell server with lots of RAM (2 GB) and new network cards (which we bought in bulk). We have about 20 computers in our lab and a couple of class computers that run off of the LTSP server. At first we had to do lots of tweaking and modifications, but now it runs beautifully! Our other lab is a Windows lab which we have to update regularly. We still have to update the LTSP server, but that is just one computer -- it is a pain to update virus software, windows updates, and other software updates for 20+ computers several times a month. We've spent much less time maintaining the LTSP lab than the Windows lab.
This is just my own personal experience with Linux and K12LTSP. I never really used Linux before this project, and have learned a lot since. Thankfully, some people have experienced the same problems as me in the past and the solutions have been resolved. There are also some things I wish I could change, but that's for another discussion board.
Check out the websites for more information on K12LTSP or the Linux Terminal Server Project in general.
I saw that someone else posted about K12LTSP already, but I thought I'd just add my 2 cents.