Ditching Microsoft Could Save Education Millions

ElvenMonkey writes "The Times Education Supplement has published the results of a BECTA (British Educational Communications and Technology Association, the Government's ICT agency) study, to be published next week, into the TCO of using Microsoft products compared to using Open Source products. The report shows an average saving of 24% per computer in schools using Open Source over those using Microsoft systems. Now if only the government wasn't insistent on locking schools into using Microsoft in arguably illegal ways."

Comments

wow.

[PopeAlien]

Think how much they would save if they just got rid of the computers.

Re:wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

But think of all those poor IT guys out of jobs.

M$ crapware is the only thing keeping food on their tables.

Re:wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not a bad idea if you have an alternative for the pr0n

Re:wow.

[peculiarmethod]

yeah, no joke.. get rid of the computers and learn the hard way! I was raised without computers until late in highschool, and look at me! I mean, I am single, a musician.. alcoholic.. addicted to porn and constantly refreshing slashd..

nevermind.. keep the computers.

Re:wow.

[hsmith]

Agree 100%. When i was in school we only had a handful of them. We used them when it was necessary.

Now look at me, I am a software engineer, I think they are the biggest waste of money within a school, they are "super machines" that people think will make teaching go so much better.

Give the money to the teachers to higher a better staff, THEN you will have more well informed children. God if they paid $60K+ starting to teach, think of the people they could have instructing.

Re:wow.

[Reaperducer]

Think how much they would save if they just got rid of the computers.

It's too bad we can't experiment on children the way we do with lab rats. I'd like to see two nearly identical student bodies -- one with computers, and one without -- and see which really gets further in life. Since the invention of the blackboard, elementary and high school educators have always clamored for the latest gadgets, and sulked when they don't get it. I sometimes wonder if they get more than they need, especially when I see high schools with broadcast radio and cable TV stations. Maybe I'm just getting old.

Re:wow.

[skasingularity]

God, if they paid $100K+ a lecture think of the people could have instructing. Wow, imagine if teachers had 7 figure signing bonuses like professional atheletes.

Just imagine the flocks of "well motivated" people getting their degrees just so they can help the wee ones.

While I whole-heartedly agree that teachers deserve to get paid more, I think its way too easy to say "Oh, all we have to do is up the teacher salary and public education will hit a record high."

Re:wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

Give the money to the teachers to higher a better staff

They could have hired an English teacher at your school who actually spoke english. :P

Re:wow.

[wankledot]

This comment made me laugh, then I realized you might not be joking and i was very, very sad.

Re:wow.

[CyanDisaster]

...When i was in school we only had a handful of them. We used them when it was necessary...

When I was in elementary, very rarely did we ever use computers. We did either basic word processing, or educational games. In junior high, computers were a bit more popular, but still limited to word processing during class time, and games occasionally during the lunch hour. Finally, in high school, there were courses devoted to CAD, Pascal programming, word processing, and MS Office. These days those skills are necessary. I wouldn't be where I am today, if it weren't for what we had then.

...I think they are the biggest waste of money within a school...

I think they're entirely the opposite. The computers themselves aren't the waste of money. It's the software that is installed on them that costs so much. Windows, Office, various other software suites and applications. They may get deals on them due to educational purposes, but it's still pretty expensive I imagine. Swapping Windows with Linux, both software and technicians, would save the schools a fair bit of money.

My thoughts anyhow...

Hope be with ye,
Cyan

Re:wow.

[Excelsior]

yeah, no joke.. get rid of the computers and learn the hard way! I was raised without computers until late in highschool, and look at me! I mean, I am single, a musician.. alcoholic.. addicted to porn and constantly refreshing slashd..

At least it paid off in your grammar, spelling, capitalization, and punctuation skills.

Re:wow.

[hass]

Apparently you haven't been to a rural public school. At my highschool (in college now) we got computers that were donated from a prison. They are hardly functional. If anything schools need more funding. At least rural school do. That's just my experience.

Re:wow.

[mini me]

A little history lesson.

Five to ten years ago the local school board was well managed and had lots of extra money lying around. They put this extra money into the latest and greatest technology of the time. Now the educational benefit of that technology may have been debatable. But there is more to this story than just education...

The whole community benefited from their investments. This being in a rural area, we had technology available that rivaled that of cities of the same time period.

But all good things must end. The government went on their amalgamation rampage and paired up said school board with the neighboring schoolboard that had significant debt. Now that the school board isn't investing heavily in technology, the whole community has really started to fall behind the technology curve.

So in conclusion, since there is no Ministry of Technology, the school boards are the ones fulfilling that role. If they aren't doing a good job with technology, everyone suffers.

Re:wow.

[Excelsior]

Agree 100%. When i was in school we only had a handful of them. We used them when it was necessary.

Now look at me, I am a software engineer, I think they are the biggest waste of money within a school, they are "super machines" that people think will make teaching go so much better.

Computers are not in schools strictly for the potential software engineer. They are there because learning to operate a computer, such as authoring documents on publishing software, or keying in orders, is a requirement for a large number of jobs in the U.S. economy.

Further, computers are in school for more than students such as myself and yourself whose parents could afford to supply us with computers at home. Computers are in schools so that the children of low-income families have equal capability to learn what you and I learned at home. Computers in school reduce the digital divide, at least somewhat.

Give the money to the teachers to higher a better staff, THEN you will have more well informed children. God if they paid $60K+ starting to teach, think of the people they could have instructing.

Teachers earn what the market will bear, like any other profession. Every graduate that I know with a teaching degree has had to compete fiercely for job openings. When an offer is available, they take it, gladly. As long as this is the case, schools will not be forced to pay higher wages. My economics teacher taught me about supply and demand.

Re:wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

There have been an unusually large number of anti-Microsoft articles in the press lately, and I think the pro-MS groupthink is seriously starting to crack. At Slashdot, where there usually are several people trying to defend Microsoft, there are almost none. Even the ones at the recent OO.org discussion are basically admitting to a plight of lock-in, fueled by Visual Basic and the closed Office file formats.

Microsoft is steadily being walled-off by their competitors. Solaris and Linux are both world-class operating systems that are available at zero-cost. Operating systems are mature technology, while still evolving, are systems that no one wants to see as a major line item on the expense sheets anymore. Thus, Windows is slowly but steadily becoming obselete, both as a technology and as a business platform.

There is also growing frustration at Microsoft Office imprisoning peoples' data. Why should data be readable by only one corporation's technology? OASIS is the natural answer to this, and, with the millions of people already using OO.org, standardization will only drive adoption further. As with Windows, Office is being rendered obselete.

With the majority of Microsoft's revenue stream built on sand, essentially, and more people recognizing this, it is inevitable that the markets will transition back to an open-systems model. Only, now, instead of expensive UNIX, it's free UNIX and Linux backed by the hardware manufacturers that started it all.

This is a very interesting time in the software industry, and we are witnessing history in the making.

Re:wow.

[jmorris42]

> Give the money to the teachers to higher a better staff, THEN you will
> have more well informed children. God if they paid $60K+ starting to
> teach, think of the people they could have instructing.

If the same 'teaching establishment' were in charge nothing would change except pissing away a lot of money to the same semi-literate hacks we have now.

Education won't improve until the unions are broken so the incompetents with tenure can be sacked and people with a Phd in Math can teach without spending four more years learning how to 'teach.' (read jumping the artificial hurdle the unions use to keep their incompetents from competing with those with skill and motivation.)

Education still won't change until the massive overhead is slashed. Preferably by privitizing the schools because so long as they are government run they must be political instituitions. Not that private universities aren't also infested with PC bullcrap but there ARE private instituitions of higher learning out there that actually teach if one is motivated to search them out. WIth a virtual government run monopoly on primary and secondary education that isn't nearly as easy. Unless you are a rich Democrat congressman. (cheap shot)

Re:wow.

[Bert64]

But school computers are often setup in the most restrictive way the school staff could manage, and the holes in their security are furthur enforced by punishments if your caught breaching it.. The restrictive environments don't encourage learning about the guts of the machine atall, they may teach you the bare minimum of how to operate the exact word processing configuration present on the machines. People learn parrot-fashion how to use (not find) the options theyre told they need.
Me, i was banned from the school computer lab for breaking through their restrictions and accessing a dos prompt, now i'm paid pretty good money as a security consultant doing penetration-testing where i'm SUPPOSED to break security.

Re:wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

My highschool just built a rather large housed-in telescope and station on the roof. Like the broadcast radio and TV stations you mentioned, these things are generally done by the geeks of the school not the school itself- hell the school told them they had to build it in the midst of a patch of tress out behind the school (you would think educators would get the whole Line of Sight issues there).

As for computers in school, I don't know what your all on about that they should only be in labs - where else are they? My college has them in the library because it's logical to have them there so people can look things up, my highschool had 4 computers labs - there were tons of computers but they got used. It's not like if you walk into the sewing room you find each kid has a desktop beside their sewing machine. Computers are extremely educational, they are a super tool for learning, and if you don't think so - remember that your sitting on one right now learning from Slashdot, there is no Slashdot newspaper and if there was it wouldn't be readily accessible around the world. I'd take Wikipedia over the complete encyclopedia Brittanica anyday, any moment, any situation (with the exception of needing something to hit people with, then hardcopies are still superior). I learned more from the internet then I did from K-12 and I'd say easily 50% of the actual learning I'm doing in college is actually from my time online (I find it way easier to learn topics online, and to transition between topics) then the 'hard way'.

As per your experiment, I see the outcome clear as day, those learning the old fashioned would do worse, and even if they didn't, the textbooks in highschools (especcially in north america) are so outdated even if they did learn better they would be totally and utterly useless for modern society and completely politically incorrect (imagine learning from books prior to equal rights regardless of gender, religion, creed.

I'd rather have to learn without a language to communicate topics through (like English) than learn without computers. It'd be a long and torturous process probably involving way too many diagrams, but without the internet the universe would still revolve around the flat Earth in most rural areas.

Re:wow.

[kabz]

Well, after playing with OOo 1.95, the beta of 2.0, I am very very impressed.

I used to work for a large, very PowerPoint-happy company. OOo took every PowerPoint and Word document and opened them flawlessly.

This is only a test of a few documents, but no way would OOo 1.1.4 have managed anything like this success.

Like Firefox, this will take a while to build up, but the new OOo looks nice, feels nice, and runs solid as far as I can tell, and I can see a real critical mass of people starting to use this great free Office suite.

I ran it on Windows, and I have yet to try the Linux version, but if it is anything like as good ... it will be another step towards rendering the Windows 'franchise' irrelevant.

Re:wow.

[rekenner]

... Can you blame them?
the computers at my school are already vandalized physically(About 15 computers of 40 or so have no CD access due to the rubber bands in the CD drive of an iMac being removed.). If they had didn't have much heavier restrictions, I think a lot of computers would be messed around with.

One can learn the guts of the machine in classes meant for that. My school actually does have them, and a lot more are offering them. Don't let everyone have that sort of access, however.

As for your case... Maybe it was a tad harsh to ban you just for accessing a prompt, providing you didn't do anything. Now... Some reformed thieves also become security specialists... Doesn't mean breaking and entering is ok.

Re:wow.

[mikael]

Now look at me, I am a software engineer, I think they are the biggest waste of money within a school, they are "super machines" that people think will make teaching go so much better.

Give the money to the teachers to higher a better staff, THEN you will have more well informed children. God if they paid $60K+ starting to teach, think of the people they could have instructing.

During the general election a couple of days ago, I had to look up the location of the primary school used as a polling station. To my surprise, I found out that classroom projects are being completed using Powerpoint.

Every primary school has a computer suite now. The goal is to eliminate the digital divide between wealthy middle class parents who can afford to buy their kids computers and software, and the low income families who cannot.

Although, at at the same time, the schools are being prevented from suspending truly disruptive kids from the schools, and also have to integrate autistic kids into mainstream education (teachers get assistants to help with these kids).

Back in my day, only my secondary school had computers (first a pair of Apple ]['s, then a network of BBC model B's, and another network of Acorn Archimedes).

Re:wow.

[Lord Ender]

Getting rid of computers will NOT double every teacher's salary. And you should have used computers more in school and paid attention to what the grammar-check told you. 'higher'? ick.

Re:wow.

[ChuyMatt]

Paying teachers would do a GREAT deal to make the teaching establishment better. Smarter people would actually make it a goal to teach and improve our society. The "simi-literate" people would be forced out in favor of more competent people.

You have never had a "genius" teach your class without the understanding that we are paying to be given insight into the material. If the book they choose is incomprehensible and they can not communicate, what use are they as teachers. That is what they are paid for, to TEACH! Most of the PhDs I know who teach math feel it a chore to "stoop" to the level of the people they are working for. Yes, they are as pompous as you seem. Another reason for tenure to be able to be broken.

BTW, as someone who has several friends working in private secondary schools, please understand that it is mostly the fault of the crap administrators that are produced and programs like "all-children-held-behind".

Re:wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with public school funding is that it is so often mis-spent. Why do some schools get laptops, for example? I'd bet 75% are broken in the first year. Why do some schools spend millions on absolutely gorgeous buildings, but then don't pay their teachers enough?

Re:wow.

[jmorris42]

> Paying teachers would do a GREAT deal to make the teaching establishment better.

How? Explain exactly HOW paying the same tenured incompetents more would motivate them to do a job they are incapable of doing and at any rate forbidden from doing by the politically correct administrators even if they did know.

> The "semi-literate" people would be forced out in favor of more
> competent people.

How? Tenure means you can't be fired without an act of God. So what force is going to act to get the idiots out of the system?

Unless you can break tenure, remove the unfit, gut the boards of education of their deadwood and board up every current "College of Education" there is no point in increasing salary. Once tenure is broken and pay can be linked to performance I have no objection to paying the best teachers on par with the best in other professions with similar training and work requirements.

Hint: Once you DO compare Apples to Apples you will find that teachers aren't that underpaid currently so we wouldn't have to find huge sums of cash to make up the difference. They are semi-skilled (being generous) labor working in generally good working conditions (inner city hellholes excepted) at between part-time and full-time hours.

Which just brings up another related rant. What the hell are we awarding tenure to elementary and secondary teachers for anyway? I understand the concept as applied to the university setting where professors are expected to be producing origonal work and you don't want them to fear for their position when they publish something that upsets the status quo. But I can't recall the last scientific paper published by a second grade teacher.

> Most of the PhDs I know who teach math feel it a chore to "stoop" to
> the level of the people they are working for.

Yes, we have all heard the stories of the Phd who never actually enters a classroom, interacting only with the grad students who actually teach his/her classes. No they wouldn't be a good candidate for high school teacher, but they wouldn't be likely to apply either, especially if tenure were eliminated.

Re:wow.

[dsci]

FWIW, I know quite a few elementary teachers who are no longer teaching because of POLITICS and BAD DECISION MAKING. None of these got out due to low pay.

Once at a party, a group of teachers who had left teaching were asked by someone of your mindset (ie, increasing the pay of teachers would "help") and they all said, each and every one, that the pay had nothing whatsoever to do with why they were leaving.

I know several PhD level scientists who have left teaching for precisely the same reason. I myself (PhD, Chemistry) would consider teaching high school, but not with the current state of politics in the school boards (and the union). Money has nothing to do with it.

In my opinion, your thesis that higher pay would attract 'better' teachers is a guess at best. Teachers salaries DO increase, but the quality remains low. Especially in science and math. Many professionals in educations are starting to figure this out, and money really is not the issue.

My two cents (taught at two universities, one college and one tech college, physics and chemistry).

Re:wow.

[Bazzalisk]

The article is about British teachers, who do not get tenure, and have only to take a further 1 year of postgraduate training in order to learn how to teach (about half of which is spent actualy teaching lessons in a school).

We have privatised schools here (called, confusingly for Americans, Public Schools) as well as the state-run State Schools, and most pupils cannot attend them because, shockingly, they charge fees which the vast majority of parents cannot possibly afford.

Re:wow.

[walt-sjc]

Yep. And one possible answer is LTSP. Cheap, thin clients. No local drives at all (maybe non-booting, automounted noexec,nosuid,nodev USB access for keyfob drives.) I've even seen netboot systems that re-image a small local drive each time they power up. Keyboards and mice are cheap to replace if needed. Kids don't need CD or floppy access. Lock em down hard. Use extended ACL's and capabilities. Monitored proxies for all external access.

If kids want toys, they can play at home - not school. When you are at school, you are on Mr. Taxpayer's computer and do NOT have the right to go in and screw with the system. Put video cameras in the labs and force the parents to pay for any damage their kids do.

Re:wow.

[walt-sjc]

A few years back (damn, has it been that long already?), I did some volunteer work for the original NetDay projects in the bay area (silicon valley.) In the heart of modern technology, I found original IBM PC's (circa 1982) and Apple ]['s (not even a ][e.) They didn't have any recent machines at all (even the admin offices had old crap.) The physical buildings and books were just as bad. The computers are better now since the cost of computers has come down so much, but you don't have to be in rural American schools to have old, outdated tech.

I've since moved out of the bay area, but where I am now the schools are no better. Like the San Jose schools, they are poorly maintained, old, worn out, etc.

Re:wow.

[limon.verde]

Agreed, computers can be really helpful. However, in many cases they are overestimated as a teaching tool. You used a compter to learn how to use a computer. Today, in many schoools, computers are being used to teach mostly anything. I've been unlucky enough to have a computer try to teach me foreign languages, and believe me, in that case te money would have been better spent in teache salaries.

Money spent in computers used to teach computer skills is certainly an excelent investment. Money spent in computers used to teach mostly anyhing else is wasted.

Re:wow.

[The_Wilschon]

Think how much they would save if they just got rid of the children!

Re:wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, all the math PhD's I know seem to actually love stooping to the level of the people they're working for. They teach with great gusto, and most likely do have tenure. 'course, I ain't never had someone with a PhD teach me in highschool, just University. 'course, they're also profs, not teachers. Generally if someone takes the time to get a PhD, they avoid teaching at the high school level and below. At least that's been my experience.

Y'know, with the amount of work that a lot of teachers do (except for the really shitty ones, thank the unions for them sticking around), they actually make less than minimum wage. Do you honestly think the only time a teacher does work is when they're with the chilluns? There's planning the classes, correcting crap, writing tests and shit like that... dealing with the parents of children... meetings... Then the summer holiday where quite a few, again in my experience, spend most of the summer getting their classrooms ready for the next year.

Re:wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

but... you sound exactly like me !

Re:wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it's spelled 'pron', not 'porn', everybody knows that.

Re:wow.

[northcat]

For better or for worse, computers have become a very important part of the lives of people and this is only going to increase. Ditching computers now will be a very bad move. It would be like ditching printed books a century after Gutenberg died (Maybe not a century, maybe it took longer for it to spread, but you get my point)

Re:wow.

[scottzak]

I think you got it backwards. Pay the students and they'll learn even if they have crummy teachers.

Re:wow.

[drake2148]

There is a slight problem with all of your theory, one of the main reasons that computers were put in the school in the first place is because it is part of our world with computers becoming a major role with our lives. Teachers no matter what will get paid about the same, they always have the best teachers in the world are the ones you have to pay for, tutors, charter and private as well as religous schools are by far the best education a child could recieve but the majority of the population cannot afford it, and worse off is the fact that to get a better education cost a fortune and every year that value keeps going up, which is why it is good to have computers at school as well the home so that with out much additional charge a child with his own desire to learn, which is by far more powerful if parents push a child from birth to want to learn, then a teacher who stands there and teaches kids what is requlated by the goverment, there is no way all of the united states, including and espically the rich, would ever want a increase in taxes even if it would benifit strictly and directly to better payed teachers, it has been done and still there is no justified result. The only way is for parents to accept responsiblity to educate and start their childs desire to learn, grade school is not and will never be the best place to get eduction or to make teachers more wanting to desire to teach better. It always will come down to the parents, and child working with teachers. Teachers need to know they are appericated, why should the middle class and lower class suffer due to the rich getting richer, we need to take the responsibility to implant the desire to want to learn into our kids after all they are the future, the goverment has always been stupid with their spending, why do you think we are several trillions of dollars in debt and once again in war, well goverment cant or wont control their spending and use war to help make money. Computers with internet access can help our children learn things that we might not be able to afford, large companies like example disney has a web site full of information that we can use at no charge to help our kids learn, beyond what schools are willing to teach, yes the schooling system gets worse every year FACE IT, it wont get better due to corruption, the schools get funding and yes they spend it on their own computers or what ever stuff they want, but it has always been like that, when i was in 7th grade, in 1991, i completed the math book for that grade level by half of the year, ahead of all students (except mabye a couple) the teacher got pissed off due to i proved him and the school system and the school book to be out dated pices of crap, now i dont mean to insult that or any teacher, but its true. The school system was founded over 100 years or so ago and NEVER readjusted completely for the new age, only change a few things to make it look like it. The education requirements that we should have by the time we get out of high school is so much lower then the real world requires. In the real world we are required to have knowlege about computers and world and excell and several other mirocrap (yes i mean mirosoft). But most of the students will not get that education they just need enough to get by. In order for someone to get a decant education they are gonna have to get it outside of the grade school level and get it from a secondary education, college. Which we pay for and 60% of the students by that time go in to a field that they desire, not forced? if the school system and teachers worked with the children and parents to develop a "basic" sense of direction, say technology, then there should be a wider more selection and yes better educators to assist the child to go into the field that he/she would most likely want as a career, so as in not bouncing from job to job while trying to complete a secondary education. Overall it should be enforced by the goverment that the wealthy has a responsibility to assist in the "bettering" of the rest of us. Why does bill gates have over several trillion of dollars that is unrestricted cash that gives him the right to have a monolopy over the rest of the world, in my opinion anyone who has that much cash and doesnt have any restrictions is the same if not a terrorist.

Re:wow.

[JohnFluxx]

Oi! Kids! You're punished for trying to learn about the machines! This is school, not .. uh..

How about having machines where they can bring up a terminal and having a play? You could have a select few machines with no restrictions for the kids to play with and learn about. It could be set with a network eprom to wipe and reinstall on reboot.

Re:wow.

[walt-sjc]

Oi! Kids! You're punished for trying to learn about the machines! This is school, not .. uh..

In an IT class, maybe. Not on general lab / library / wordprocessing machines. Damaging computers so that they can't be used for their primary purpose is vandalism. Try spray-painting graffiti all over your school and claiming that you were learning art and see how far that gets you...

Re:wow.

[JohnFluxx]

I get your analogy, but actually I would check that there was indeed an accessiable art class.

Libraries too

[XanC]

I hope libraries take note of this as well as schools... If libraries aren't the standard-bearer for interoperable Web sites, document formats, and any other kind of information exchange, who will be?

This is the insidious thing about Bill's Foundation. Libraries get placed on the MS upgrade cycle, hooked by the initial free-ness. Then try doing anything with your machines without spending a whole lot of money...

Re:Libraries too

[rsilvergun]

If libraries aren't the standard-bearer for interoperable Web sites, document formats, and any other kind of information exchange, who will be?

Microsoft.

Re:Libraries too

[harley_frog]

Don't think that libraries aren't already looking into this. I am the Automation Librarian for our university and I am slowly and carefully making the transition from expensive, closed-source software to inexpensive, open-source software. As a matter of fact, the library at Arizona State University West has already switched to linux.

In fact, schools and libraries are excellent starting points for the switch from Microsoft to Linux since both institutions are traditionally underfunded. Where the problem comes in is that the vendors that libraries deal with often don't write their software for Linux, but, from what I hear with one of our vendors, that may change as well.

Re:Libraries too

[cascadefx]

That's why organizations/resources like Linux in Libraries exist. They are working for putting Linux in public spaces. There are a number of cool projects that this group has pointed me to including Koha, an open source library system and implementers of open source library solutions like LibLime. Check them out.

Re:Libraries too

[jmorris42]

> I hope libraries take note of this as well as schools... If libraries
> aren't the standard-bearer for interoperable Web sites, document
> formats, and any other kind of information exchange, who will be?

Well our library was more than happy to accept Bill & Melinda's generous contributions. For the time the hardware was pretty solid midrange and ran our Linux based patron model quite nicely. And even though the software licenses were a joke (locked to both the hardware AND the library but counted as a donation of a full copy) we still ran it on select workstations via VMWare for those who needed more Office compatibility than the Linux solutions offered.

And the server they provided is still in service to this day. For several years it ran all of our world accessable Internet services including DNS, email web, ntp, etc. Now it still serves as a web proxy. Very nice little Gateway/ALR box.

So hurray for the Gates Library Foundation. We aren't rich and a big stack o' stuff won't be turned down at our back door. Yes I know they intended to lock people in, and did at a lot of sites across the state, but that is the fault of those who don't think things through. Besides those people would still be just as locked to Microsoft, they just wouldn't have as many workstations deployed.

Same ol problem of for most people they don't PICK Windows, they default to it without even pondering the question of whether or not there is even a choice to make.

And no, Apple doesn't count for large installs so STFU all Mac zealots. Anybody who hadn't installed patron PCs before Bill started tossing them off a truck certainly would never write the check for Macs. Besides, around here Macs are more rare than Linux boxes since the closest place to see one is a Sears about 50 miles away that puts one out from time to time but all of their salesmen tell you "not to buy that wierd thing corporate keeps sending out".

Re:Libraries too

[XanC]

I'm glad the hardware worked out for you. My complaint was more with their intentions, which are obviously to lock people in. And it works most of the time, too. But you're right, it's the recipients who let that happen.

By the way, IIRC, MS considers a VMWare install to be a different machine. So "technically" you can't use a locked license in VMWare. Could be wrong on this, though.

Re:Libraries too

[jmorris42]

> MS considers a VMWare install to be a different machine.

I know that is in their typical license crapola and if we also had it installed in a partition I might even listen to their arguments. But the donation license specified it had to be used only on the GLF hardware and only by our library's patrons. Both conditions were being met so any complaints would go to /dev/null unless they got really nasty and lawyered up at which point I'd bluntly ask them if they would like to turn the situation into a PR disaster.

Let em explain to a typical reporter that when we run Office on the donated PCs it wasn't actually running ON that PC, when they would plainly see Office running on said PC. But that we were now going to be forced to remove it because Microsoft was ungiving it to us because we used security software they didn't like. The one thing they (and every other closed source vendor) never want is a news story that might cause typical end users to start reading those EULAs to see if any of those hidden clauses might apply to them.

Re:Libraries too

[Eberlin]

My Story:

I get hired into a computer lab funded by a grant from Da Foundation. Lovely, really, as I'm not really sure how else the place could have afforded the number of machines we have. We offer MS Office, Internet access, and a bunch of "edutainment" titles. We even have headphones to check out if you wish to hear Arthur or Cat In The Hat...or stream audio from Launch.

We also offer computer classes with Gates-provided propag...er, teaching material.

Fast forward a few years and NT isn't quite as fun anymore. The machines won't be able to take XP, should the place even decide to go that route. Even the newer machines acquired that are running XP have been so bogged down with malware that they perform about as well as the older ones.

So there's your local lab staff, one way or another heralding Microsoft, thanking Lord Bill for his kindness...mentioned at just about every Introduction to the PC class. We teach MS Word and call it "Word Processing" -- then the students ask how they can get such programs on their home computer. That's when philanthropy turns into advertising.

In the end, we've got NT, Office 2000, more adware and spyware than we care to have, a bunch of irate people whose Internet experience crawls, and management that has to go through bureaucracy to get anything done.

Me? I wish the place ran on Linux. That would at least get USB support. Malware wouldn't be a problem. We'd at least get software patches somehow. Unfortunately, I have very little authority. Could't even install anti-spyware onto the machines due to permissions. The best I could do was write an e-mail to my supervisor reminding them that NT support had gone bye-bye, and that they consider installing spybot s&d (possible licensing issues with the others).

So far, that has resulted in nothing. Don't get me wrong -- I'm glad for the funding and the computers. It's just that the place isn't too forward-looking. It looks like the first hit is gone and this druggie needs another fix soon.

I can only wish the place considers rolling their own. :)

Re:Libraries too

[LDoggg_]

This coolest news I've heard in some time. Good to see ASU doing this.
I've set up a good size K12LTSP network at a k-8 school just 4 miles west of you on university drive in Mesa.

I'm thinking about trying to push this phoenix wide for the parochial schools. I'm gonna try and get some presentation time at our next in service meeting.

Having ASU use linux on the server and client definetly will lend some credibility to my presentation.

linux!

[derxob]

elementry schools should be using linux.. I would have had a blast back then playing super-tux instead of friggen oragon trail..

Re:linux!

[Anonymous Coward]

You, my friend, are a moron. Oregon Trail (which was originally Apple based) is an educational software. Super-tux is a game.

Re:linux!

[Anonymous Coward]

Edutainment! If it works for Fux News, it certainly ought to work in our schools!

Re:linux!

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you mean by "back then"?

Duh

[Fussen]

*sighs*

Re:Duh

[Stevyn]

If by "duh" you mean anything can be argued, then I agree with you. My father, an attorney, hates that word: arguably. Makes sense though...anything can be argued!!!

Not a scientific study

[Locke2005]

Perhaps the support costs as the schools using free software were lower because their staff was a lot smarter to begin with? ;-)

Re:Not a scientific study

[Otter]

In seriousness, I'm sure that's partly true -- schools that switch to open-source are obviously a non-random sample.

Nonetheless, I can believe these numbers. Libraries and elementary schools are no-brainers for using Linux and free software apps. Anyway, this is an improvement on the usual hypothetical TCO numbers pulled out of one side's ass or the other's.

Conversely...

[Anonymous Coward]

Bribing the decision-makers can make Microsoft millions.

Re:Conversely...

[Marthisdil]

...And being an anonymous idiot spewing filth gives us flame targets!

Lobby your school district for K12LTSP!

[bardothodal]

You can save tons on licenses and expensive hardware. Also you can teach children how computers actually work instead of giving them what MS wants the PC to be ... a glorified VCR.

Re:Lobby your school district for K12LTSP!

[Anonymous Coward]

what MS wants the PC to be ... a glorified VCR

That's a really interesting point. Mod up.

Re:Lobby your school district for K12LTSP!

[barryman_5000]

Does K12LTSP have any clustering options? Say using 8 of your existing (reasonably powered)computers to work for 50 dumb clients.

Its sad to have pentium 4 2.0ghz computers w/512mb ram sitting in my old high school's library running windows xp and crashing every class period (its strange when office makes the whole os crash . . . but that IT department will use "netware" until they are force to upgrade to suse when longhorn is released).

Anyhow, using those computers in a cluster with a nas configuration of some of the old hard drives would be a good recyling project for the whole network.

Re:Lobby your school district for K12LTSP!

[jmorris42]

> giving them what MS wants the PC to be ... a glorified VCR.

No, what MS wants is a glorified X-Box. Locked to where only Microsoft & it's select set of publishers (who pay dearly up front and per copy for the privilege of being 'selected') are permitted to release software. Where possessing an unlicensed 'develop workstation' would be a felony. Let em mandate putting the fritz chip in all CPUs and watch how fast they get exactly that world.

Re:Lobby your school district for K12LTSP!

[gurudyne]

The "TS" of K12LTSP stands for Terminal Server. One Linux server feeding many dumb terminals/old recycled PCs.

No problem. And, cheap.

Re:Lobby your school district for K12LTSP!

[bardothodal]

There is a LTSP + OpenMosix blend that someone implemented. I don't think the performacne difference was compelling though because the way Mosix processes spread through the cluster.

Re:Lobby your school district for K12LTSP!

[fitten]

Strangely enough, that's what the vast majority of users want it to be too. I don't know any non-programmer, non-geek, or non-geek-wannabe who actually wants to use a command line, for example. Heck, most of them can't even touch type.

Re:Lobby your school district for K12LTSP!

[Anonymous Coward]

MS wants the PC to be ... a glorified VCR.

Funny, I don't know many people who go to their pharmacist and ask for chemicals they can mix themselves. No one cares about how a computer works unless you happen to be a computer geek.

If MS wants it to be a glorified VCR, then the linux community should actually be smart for a change and understand that's what the general public wants. No one is interested in typing scripts at a bash shell.

Re:Lobby your school district for K12LTSP!

[LDoggg_]

Gee.. I wonder why you posted that as an AC

Using linux does not have to mean typing in scripts at a bash shell.
Linux can be made to look and act just as point-and-clicky as windows.

Using K12LTSP enables you to quickly set up a large school network where students have access to office applications, web browsing, photo editing, desktop publishing, web publishing,programming languages , etc.
It also centralizes network administration, allows for recycling hardware, and saves a ton of money on software licensing.
It is important to teach computer concepts, not just the nuances of the latest proprietary office suite.

Just remember, It should never under any circumstances be the responsibility of educators to teach brand loyalty.

Re:Lobby your school district for K12LTSP!

[LDoggg_]

Funny, I don't know any non-programmer, non-geek, or non-geek-wannabe who actually sets up there own computer.
End users of a linux desktop (LTSP especially) do not have to use a command line any more than end users of windows have to use a command line.
X11 and desktop managers with icons have been available on linux for over ten years.

Further proof

[turgid]

that I am 5 to 10 years ahead of my time.

Thank you.

Re:Further proof

[AKAImBatman]

Further proof that I am 5 to 10 years ahead of my time.

You mind filling in those of us outside your fan club who have no idea what you're talking about?

And to delve into poor form (by answering a stupid sig):

General Relativity is only a theory.

It is. Just a theory, that is. We know for a fact that it can't be 100% correct because otherwise Quantum Physics couldn't operate (which is also "just a theory"). The catch 22 on these theories is that they have been probabilistically proven to be "correct" to within a very small margin for error. This means that the theories are "mostly correct" to the best of our current knowledge.

Your obvious point of making the "Evolution is just a theory" statement sound silly doesn't work. Evolution is just as much "just a theory" as Relativity, with the exception that it has yet to produce any mathematical probablities for its correctness. Indeed, the very physics required seem to argue against the concept! Barring any undiscovered advances in the theory, the probability of an evolutionary occurance is lower than (if you'll excuse the overused analogy) a 747 being accidentally put together by a tornado storming through a junk yard.

So, instead of having such an amazingly lame signature, how about having an amazingly lame signature that links to something that argues your point? Or you could just link to an Amazon deal like myself. Or perhaps an Amazon deal that makes your point? ;-)

Re:Further proof

[turgid]

If sarcasm be the lowest form of wit, my cup runneth over.

After graduation

[Myridon]

Now our high school graduate applies for a job...

Can you use Excel?
No
Can you use Word?
No, Kedit
Can you use Windows?
No, Linux

Thanks, we'll get back to you (in a million years)...

Re:After graduation

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you use Excel? Yes - if you can use open office oocalc, you can easily use excel Can you use Word? Yes - if you can use open office oowrite, you can use word. Can you use Windows? Yes - but I can save your business money by helping you to convert to Linux and open source software. Sounds great! When can you start?

Re:After graduation

[Spy der Mann]

Can you use Excel?
Who can't?
Can you program Excel macros?
Sure! (Just lemme download that tutorial at the web)
Can you use windows?
AND tweak it.

Welcome to our company. See you next monday at 9.

(See? That wasn't so hard, was it?)

Re:After graduation

[steveness]

Now our high school graduate applies for a job (with better interview skills)

Can you use Excel?
I can use several spreadsheet programs, and can even develop complex math functions.
Can you use Word?
I have experience with several word processing tools, and can help the company by ensuring that documents transfer well between programs.
Can you use Windows?
I have extensive experience with windows environments and graphical interfaces, and can even use a computer when those interfaces fail.

Thanks, can you start Monday?

Re:After graduation

[Nex6]

spreadsheet and word type programs are not so alien to each other as to not confer skillsets to transfer easiliy.

OpenOffice, Koffice. and crossover to run MS office.

whats important, is to learn how to use a computer, the how and whys. leanr the basics of what a spread is how it works and you will be able to use any spreadsheet quickly.

-Nex6

Re:After graduation

[ThisIsFred]

Oh please. If the graduate isn't bright enough to be able to apply his knowledge between different word processors or spreadsheets, he probably isn't going to be productive no matter what application he's using.

Re:After graduation

[man_of_mr_e]

Actually, if I were doing the interviewing, i'd ask them why they were evading the questions, and probably file it in the round filing cabinet for being dishonest.

Re:After graduation

[man_of_mr_e]

That's simply not the way things work for most people. You're trained on the specific application and that's the only application you ever use unless retrained.

Most people simply don't take it upon themselves to learn things for themselves for work, because they know if it were really important their companies will pay for their training.

Re:After graduation

[Chibi]

The thing to consider is that the HR departments at most companies act as the first level of filtering of resumes. So, they'll usually scan a resume for certain keywords. It's entirely possible that even though someone is a perfectly qualified candidate, they might not be able to pass this first level of filtering. It's not entirely logical, but that's unfortunately how most of the world works.

So, you might argue just put the MS products on your resume, even if you don't really "know" them. Well, then your resume is technically inaccurate, and this could get you into trouble (either any interviews will question your honesty, or you could be dismissed from your new job when it's discovered that you didn't know of a particular quirk in Excel '97).

Just giving a counterpoint. In general, I think it's much better for people to be flexible and quick learners, rather than mindless automatons. :)

Re:After graduation

[philwx]

by Myridon (719720) on Friday May 06, @02:38PM (#12457313) Now our high school graduate applies for a job... Can you use Excel? No Can you use Word? No, Kedit Can you use Windows? No, Linux Thanks, we'll get back to you (in a million years)...

More like: Employer: "you don't know microsoft stuff, eh?"

Highschool grad: "Wasn't taught it specifically in schools, however I learned similar programs. I also learned universal computing concepts which means when something minor goes wrong with the computer I will be able to handle it without flopping and twitching and being at the mercy of tech support."

Re:After graduation

[raquelita]

Rigth!

I started using M$ Word and Excel without problems, having learnt WordStar and DBase III Plus ...

Re:After graduation

[SpecBear]

There are several options:

Can you use (Excel|Word|Windows)?
Answer A: "Which version? (watch as interviewer's eyes glaze over) No matter, I've used several (word processor|spreadsheet|OS) variants in my time, I'm sure I can use or quickly learn to use whatever you have in house."

Answer B: "Yes." It doesn't matter if it's true. If your job requires the ability to use advanced functionality of these programs, the interviewer will ask about these specifically. Besides, I'm sure at some point you'll have interacted with these programs, right?

Can you use Word? No, Kedit Can you use Windows? No, Linux

Re:After graduation

[rpozz]

That argument has cemented Windows into schools in the UK. However it is total bullshit.

The main reasons for this include:

1) All word processors/spreadsheets/whatever have almost exactly the same user interface. Once you know OO.org, it's not exactly rocket science to know how to use MS Office.

2) The version of Windows/MS Office that the school uses will be out of date in around a year or so, and you can bet your ass they won't update for another 5 years. So you'll probably be using something slightly different from what you learnt in school when you get a job.

3) Knowing how to use a computer is NOT about knowing how to use MS products. The main point of computers in schools is to improve typing skills, learning how to lay out a document, spreadsheet formulae, etc. All of which shouldn't be specific to any given piece of software.

Re:After graduation

[unoengborg]

If you get these questions you know that they job is going to be boring and underpaid, and you wouldn't want it anyway.

Re:After graduation

[steveness]

To date (12 years in the tech world) I have only once been to a job interview that didn't end with a job offer. Every one of those interviews included questions like "Can you use tool x?", and I have found that most HR guys are actually smart enough to see that if I can use tool y, tool z, and if necessary code my own tool, I can probably handle tool x. The interview is about understanding the company's needs and offering solutions to those needs.

That's not evading or being dishonest, it's showing the interviewer how my skill set is relevant and helpful.

Re:After graduation

[rizawbone]

Can you use Excel? Yes - if you can use open office oocalc, you can easily use excel Can you use Word? Yes - if you can use open office oowrite, you can use word. Can you use Windows? Yes - but I can save your business money by helping you to convert to Linux and open source software. Sounds great! When can you start?

Good thing they're not looking for linebreaks or paragraphs.

Re:After graduation

[spells]

Can you use (Excel|Word|Windows)?
Answer A: "Which version? (watch as interviewer's eyes glaze over)

A simple tip to save time - if the interviewer's eyes glaze over, you can stand up and leave.

Re:After graduation

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have been using OO et al for years, and are afraid you are going to be asked about Word, Excell, etc, then just spend an afternoon on a friend's Windows computer, and you will be ready.

Re:After graduation

[Anonymous Coward]

Dishonest how? They're answering the questions.
It's analogous to an interviewer asking "can you drive a Ford" and receiving "I can drive a variety of standard and automatics" as an answer. It's the question that's wrong, not the answer.

Re:After graduation

[GMFTatsujin]

There are some other posts that critique the complexity of the answers given in parent, and rightly so.

The answer to all these questions is simply "yes."

The advantage that the parent poster is trying to point out is that the questions might change--can you use OpenOffice?--and the answer can *still be yes.*

Impressing interviewers starts with being able to fill their needs. It finishes with exceeding them.

Re:After graduation

[YukonTech]

And now the interview of a student who didn't have access to computers in schools. Can you use Excel? Sure, I just pop it out of the wrapper and start to chew. Thanks, we will let you know...

Re:After graduation

[ad0gg]

Can you use Excel? Yes - if you can use open office oocalc.

You're joking right? Most powerful/useful feature in excel are pivot tables, anyone who knows excel knows pivot tables. OOCalc doesn't have a decent matching feature for pivot tables(DataPilot is a joke). So claiming you know how to use excel because you know to use oocalc, would be like claiming you know how to use vi because you use pico. Good try though.

Re:After graduation

[LurkerXXX]

You do realize they are talking about putting this in schools for all the kids, not just the geeks right?

Lots of folks end up in boring low paying jobs. That makes up a large portion of the types of jobs that exist in the world. We need people to do these jobs.

Putting Linux and OO on a machine in school is not going to transform most of the folks who typically end up in those kind of jobs in to uber hackers who can avoid the 'lame' jobs, and get something more high tech.

Re:After graduation

[Anonymous Coward]

"So why didn't you put any of Word, Excel on your resume?"

Now you will be forced to lie.. Good job.

Re:After graduation

[nycbicyclist]

This reminds of when I was office temping 5 or 6 years ago. The temp agency had a job for me, but warned that the client insisted on good excel skills. Not only did the client (a major newspaper publisher) need someone skilled in excel, they needed someone who knew the latest version of excel. (It was my experience that temp agencies do ask what version of a product you've used, for reasons that escape me.) So I get to the job worried that my minimal excel skills might not be up to snuff. My new supervisor showed me how she entered figures into a column of cells. Then she said, "And now we add up the figures and put the total at the bottom." With that, she opened the drawer of her desk, pulled out a calculator, and added up the figures by hand. Since then, I haven't had much respect for so-called job-requirements or interviews. But I was able to wow my temp employer by explaining some of the "advanced" features of the "latest" excel.

Re:After graduation

[Phil06]

Can you format cells in Excel?
Sure!
Can you merge all these over here, put in empty columns to space things right, add a few space characters here to get this to line up right?
Um uh yeah sure!
Wait a minute, we changed our mind, we want it organized by these categories, while you are at it add in a bunch of empty lines so it prints right, can you do that?
Yeah, but uh, it will take the rest of the day to undo all that and reformat, but uh sure!
Hey, sorry, we changed our mind and want to turn this into a database, can you do that?
Um uh, if you had asked for a database in the first place, I wouldn't have wasted the whole day formatting...
Is that an attitude I'm hearing from you?
Uh, no sir, I'll get right on it.

Re:After graduation

[unoengborg]

Sure, there will always be boring jobs. But in a school system that spend less on IT, there might be more money to spare for actually teaching the pupils basic skills like reading and writing.

This is probably more essential to success in a job than knowing MS-Word or some other software. Software versions come and go, but the basic skills will remain the same. It doesn't matter if you know all the menus in MS-Word by heart, if you don't know how to write.

So, even if it wouldn't help the poor sods that end up with these boring underpayd jobs it would help society.

Re:After graduation

[LDoggg_]

>>Most people simply don't take it upon themselves to learn things for themselves for work,

Have you ever done any hiring?
You've just described the exact character flaw that I avoid when interviewing people.

Re:After graduation

[Gruneun]

And back to the real world...

Can you use Excel?
I can use several spreadsheet programs, and can even develop complex math functions.
OK, but, can you use Excel?

Can you use Word?
I have experience with several word processing tools, and can help the company by ensuring that documents transfer well between programs.
OK, but, can you use Word?

Can you use Windows?
I have extensive experience with windows environments and graphical interfaces, and can even use a computer when those interfaces fail.
OK, but, can you use Microsoft Windows?

In the post-interview team meeting, later that day...

No, he seemed sharp enough, but I don't think he had enough experience with the specific programs we need.

Re:After graduation

[Anonymous Coward]

and if i was being interviewed by you, i'd shit on my hands and smear it on the walls, then knock over the table and tear off my clothes and start running down the hallway and try to smash something glass so i cut myself and spray blood everywhere and then start beating off so i could come in someone's hair and cut it and smell it

Re:After graduation

[matria]

Indeed, once years ago I was even denied an interview because while I had used (in fact I installed and did tech support for all my friends and neighbors) WordPerfect 5.1 and 6.0 for DOS and 6.1 for Windows, I had never used 6.0 for Windows. So it's more an issue of ignorance on the part of the HR department than whether or not a person is qualified for any given position. They make a requirement that they know nothing about and may well lose the best candidates for the job.

Just to show that candidate qualification sometimes is irrelevant:

This was in the height of the "affirmative action" days, at a large university, and the job was finally given to a 60-year old African-American typist who had used a word processor two or three times! I know this for a fact; I was sitting outside the office waiting for another pre-interview interview immediately after my rejection, and overheard her pre-interview interview. The HR person went around and around trying to determine if it were possible that the "word processor" in question may have been a computer with WordPerfect 6.0 for Windows, although it was obvious that this was a word processor machine and not a computer at all. I found out later that the woman was given the job.

Re:After graduation

[man_of_mr_e]

That's still evading the question. The question is: Can you use Tool X? That's a yes or no answer. Answering with "I can use many tools" isn't an answer, it's an evasion.

If you wanted to say that yes, you can use tool X in addition to tool y, you'd say "Yes, as well as tool y, z and zz". If you mean that you haven't actually used tool x but have used similar ones you'd say "No, but I have used tools y, z, and zz which are very similar".

You don't evade the question and make it sound like you might have used the tool when you haven't.

No!

[guitaristx]

You mean our schools might actually promote learning, sharing, innovation, and playing nice with others? Say it ain't so!

It's amazing to me how rarely we see "academic" software like Unix & Linux in our schools. I'm fortunate enough to be assisting in setting up a private school's computer network, all Linux, baby!

Re:No!

[Sporkinum]

'Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning' - George W. Bush.

Re:No!

[thin_em]

I've worked as the sys admin for a UK secondary school. Education buys into proprietory systems eg:RM Connect, SIMS,Successmaker. It's hard to unproprietise (is that a word?). I had limited sucess with Linux in some small areas (that argument won purely on making the measly budget allowance go as far as pos) such as the library and classroom clusters. In short, sometimes it ain't that simple. PS: teachers are not a technical bunch and abhore change. Think reaaally long term.

Re:No!

[geoff_probes]

A few years ago when I was head of IT at a private school in the middle east, we were forced by parental pressure to swap-out our Acorn education computers for PCs under Windows and running Office. The reasoning was that children could do their homework/projects etc on their parents' computers.
Of the more than a quarter-million dollars we spent, one half of it went to MS for licences who informed us 'It is not our policy to let you have manuals, you have only bought a licence-to-use'.
Of course the pupils did next to no work at home but neither would they have done had we kept our Acorn system.
The real shame of the MS route is that so much money is wasted on licences (including the Permission to Upgrade licence we had to buy) rather than buying working resources for any hard-pressed education system.

I can guarantee this...

[bogaboga]

"That M$ will not agree to this notion". They will point to Equifax and some other customers including some city in Britain, that opted for Microsoft products instead of the so called free software.

When it comes to slashdot, there will be so many opinions, including those from posters who think they know, but who in effect, know so little to know that they know nothing.

Have a good weekend guys.

Re:I can guarantee this...

[Anonymous Coward]

"some other customers including some city in Britain"

As a tax payer in a democratic nation, I would be pissed if my city/state/country re-newed a contract in favor of Microsoft. Microsoft imprisons public data in proprietary formats, which should be illegal from the get-go.

Gotta love The Register

[TripMaster Monkey]

The Register is such a timesaver for Slashdotters...it has the anti-M$ slant built in.

Re:Gotta love The Register

[TripMaster Monkey]

Actually, yes, I will.

Thanks for caring, though.

Re:Gotta love The Register

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, reality has the anti-M$ slant built in.

Not in Kansa (anymore)

[bstadil]

As an average person from Kansas, I object to using something that seems to be created out of nowhere.

God didn't create Microsoft Office to Futs in us unused.

Re:Not in Kansa (anymore)

[Locke2005]

There is a theory the Microsoft software was created by Intelligent Design, but so far scientists have not been able to find any evidence to support this theory.

Re:Not in Kansa (anymore)

[codeguy007]

God didn't create Microsoft Office to Futs in us unused

Hmm I wonder if Word's gramar checker would help you not misquote Hamlet.

Re:Not in Kansa (anymore)

[muonman]

...As an average person from Kansas...

Recent evidence suggests that all people in Kansas are below average.

Re:Not in Kansa (anymore)

[bstadil]

Not to mention spell checker for gramar

Grammar FYI

Re:Not in Kansa (anymore)

[belmolis]

Really, its true. I had occasion to read the specs for PDF (designed by Adobe) and RTF (designed by Microsoft) a couple of years ago. The PDF spec is much more complex and at 1200 pages about 3 times the length of the RTF spec. My feeling on reading the PDF spec was that it was written by smart people. Some things were more complicated than I would have liked, but there was a reason for it. In contrast, the RTF spec gave me the feeling that the people who wrote it weren't all that bright. Lots of things seemed clunky for no good reason. The exposition was often murky and poorly organized.

Quality - naaaaa...

[wackymacs]

Maybe schools want to pay money for Microsoft's programs for every computer because they *think* the quality of it will be better than the open-source because it costs money, and you get what you pay for. Though this certainly isn't really the case.

Re:Quality - naaaaa...

[geekee]

"Maybe schools want to pay money for Microsoft's programs for every computer because they *think* the quality of it will be better than the open-source because it costs money, and you get what you pay for. Though this certainly isn't really the case."

Have you ever used Open Office? MS Office is much better.

Re:Quality - naaaaa...

[wackymacs]

Of course I have used Open Office, under Mac OS X it was a LOT better than MS Office for Mac OS X in terms of stability. It's no good if students are losing their work all the time because of stability issues. You haven't said you think MS Office is better, backup your comment with reasons...

Re:Quality - naaaaa...

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever used Open Office?

Yes.

MS Office is much better.

No it isn't, and it costs thousands of times more (considering a CD-R is a few cents).

For myself, I have yet to run into a limitation in OO.org for my needs. Odds are my needs are similar to the needs of pretty much everyone who has brand-allegiance to Microsoft Office.

The people who use Office-specific features, well they can keep their Office, because they've backed themselves into a very expensive technological corner.

Re:Quality - naaaaa...

[Segway Ninja]

Stability issues with the software aren't usually the problem; it's stability issues with the OS and the environment it's run on.

In my school, we are heavy with Thin Clients running Windows Terminal Services. All the software is stable; whether it be Studio MX, MS Ofice or Firefox. But the servers frequently die or run at a complete crawl or standstill.

Re:Quality - naaaaa...

[Tourney3p0]

This is absolutely the case.

I used to work for a K-12 school system's technology department. We were looking into a trouble ticket database solution, which would be fairly trivial to write from scratch but our business was not software development. I found several open source options online, then downloadeded and installed each one to show to my boss.

One in particular interested her. The meeting ended like this:

Her: "This is exactly what we need! How much is it?"
Me: "It's free, and open source. So we can quickly add any features that aren't yet.."
Her: "Wait, wait.. we can't use this if we're not paying for it. What if something breaks?"
Me: "If something breaks, we can easily look through the code and fix it. Or we can email the author and ask him to look at it. I already emailed him and he said he'd be glad to help us if we have any problems."
Her: "Ask him if he'll sell it to us for $10,000"

End of the story, we didn't go that route.. we ended up buying a turnkey Windows solution for 18 grand. It was much more elaborate than we needed, and after I left the job they ended up writing their own in about half an hour.

Re:Quality - naaaaa...

[Bert64]

Openoffice 2 is a lot better, but both it and msoffice are still horrendously buggy.. Both need to concentrating on fixing bugs rather than adding new features..
Aside from that openoffice is better in many ways, mainly due to it's flexibility (including the open file format, which is easily edited outside of openoffice and can be modified by automated tools) and cross-platform nature (i find X11 configured with a window manager to suit me is far more productive than windows or osx).. One thing i find especially usefull however, is the open nature of the openoffice fileformat.. Instead of being stuck with a single macro-language, i can write my own scripts in any language to parse and modify the files, i can even generate or modify documents through web-based interfaces for instance.

Re:Quality - naaaaa...

[biglig2]

So why didn't you e-mail the author and get him to charge her $10K for it? Hell, if you feel guilty about taking the money from the school, use your half to buy them a piano or something.

Re:Think of the kids

[yagu]

The money you save by not using MS will be paid ten fold down the road when the kids aren't getting an education due to a never-available and always buggy infrastructure. Let's face it, MS is the only OS that's ready for prime time in an educational setting.

I know this guy was obviously trolling.... or had some typos... to give him the benefit of the doubt, I've made appropriate corrections...

The money you save by not using anything but MS will be paid ten fold down the road when the kids aren't getting an education due to a never-available and always buggy infrastructure. Let's face it, anything but MS is the only OS that's ready for prime time in an educational setting.

Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source Today

[js7a]

Do you know who the superintendent(s) of your local public school board are? Those are the people who are responsible for the continued economic vitality of your community, so if you don't know, find out today, and ask them to stop paying the Microsoft tax. Windows and Office are anachronisms, the rulers of the 80s and 90s, which have through base greed lost any claim to a place in today's classroom.

Do you have it within you to write a clear, three-paragraph letter to the chair of a school board today? Please prove it, by posting its text in reply to this comment.

The challenge is made; who among you are human enough to meet it?

School's Motive

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always wondered why schools don't use Linux. If kids start with it, they would all be able to embrace technology to the fullest extent, where in Windows, all you get is annoying paperclips, error messages, and EVERYTHING spoon-fed to you so it's as bland as possible.

What's the difference?

[bechthros]

"Now if only the government wasn't insistent on locking schools into using Microsoft in arguably illegal ways."

So it was OK for my city's entire public school system and library system to lock me into using Apples all the way up until my senior year, but it's not OK to lock people into using Windows? Apple has long been known for educational discounts in exchange for school systems agreeing to use Apple exclusively and pressure their students into buying them. It happened to many friends of mine and almost happened to me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not the president of the MS fan club or anything, but I gotta say it was really really annoying having to be programming in nothing but BASIC on IIgs's in 1991. I was overjoyed when our school was the chosen pilot for the PC program - I learned a lot more about computers a lot more quickly.

That said, locking students into any one system is bad. I say, have a Mac, a Winbox, and linux box all running side by side and let the students decide which one they want to use. Let them, to coin a phrase, compete in the marketplace of ideas. Isn't competition the American way?

Re:What's the difference?

[j1mmy]

1. the article is dealing with the united kingdom
2. students aren't paying for the computers, e.g., no market
3. regardless of whether you're using a windows, mac, or linux machine today, there's an enormous amount of free software available for all those platforms. today's students certainly aren't stuck developing in basic like they were 15 years ago.

Re:What's the difference?

[01000011011101000111]

"I say, have a Mac, a Winbox, and linux box all running side by side and let the students decide which one they want to use." - at our university, the comp sci department does just that - and I choose 'nux ;) The rest of the uni has to make do with 2k boxes (badly set up at that) & a room of ageing sun boxes...

Re:What's the difference?

[bechthros]

" 1. the article is dealing with the united kingdom"

That's an awful lot of characters used just to say RTFM. Guilty as charged. The points I was trying to make remain valid no matter what country it's in. Competition is good. Students learning more than one OS is good. And when it somes to monopolizing entire school districts, Microsoft is very late to Apple's game.

"2. students aren't paying for the computers, e.g., no market"

Marketplace of ideas.

"regardless of whether you're using a windows, mac, or linux machine today, there's an enormous amount of free software available for all those platforms. today's students certainly aren't stuck developing in basic like they were 15 years ago."

Wow. What's up, fanboy. You make it sound like there's the same, or even a comparable, amount of free software for all three. There most certainly is not. Enormous is a very subjective term. Care to quantify it?

And, speaking strictly for myself, the only reason we were stuck having nothing but BASIC to program in is because our district saw fit to sign a contract with Apple that we wouldn't use any competing systems. And before the ink was dry, Apple decided to stick us with the crappiest of the crap.

Re:What's the difference?

[3nuff]

Speaking as someone who started learning how to program on an Apple II at age 12, then moving to Mac OS, then to WinTel at 16, and arriving at Linux in my 20s, I can say that it doesn't really matter what is in front of the student.

What matters are the fundamentals that we are teaching. As an example, my sixth grade teacher would spend time after school with me helping me debug BASIC programs on the ol Apple II. What my teacher did was set the stage for me to grasp fundamental logic concepts. This knowledge allowed me to move freely in the computing world. That type of knowledge transcends making the font bold or creating that powerpoint slide. This is what the computer should be used for, not some silly test of which button to push, hell, you can tech mice that kind of crap.

Re:What's the difference?

[killjoe]

Locking people to Macs? Bad.
Locking people to MS? Bad

Locking people to Linux? Good!.

Students should learn on linux. They can really get to the guts to learn how computers work. They can even make contributions if they want. Finally you are not whoring your students to some company.

Re:What's the difference?

[IamTheRealMike]

Right. You could probably argue that it's impossible to be "locked in" to Linux except at the API level (and there's no way around that so it's hardly lockin). Usually the term means vendor lockin which is naturally impossible because - assuming Red Hat don't turn evil and start using MS style agreements - there are always multiple vendors to choose from.

Re:What's the difference?

[FuzzieNorn]

A national goverment policy locking schools into buying from a single company if they want funding is quite different from a group of schools deciding independently from the national government which machines to purchase, to be fair.

Re:What's the difference?

[Bert64]

Here in the UK, there are very few apples in schools, we had Acorns, and before that BBC computers.. In my senior school, the design/graphics department had some macs, but there were no apple machines of any kind to be found anywhere else in the school. We learned on a combination of RiscOS (acorn) BBC BASIC, DOS, MacOS (6 i think) and windows 3.x. No-one seemed to have any problem switching between the different platforms, and many of us used amiga's, commodore 64's or sinclairs at home just to add to the mix. Consequently while i do have my platforms of choice, i can adapt to new programs reasonably quickly.. I was unable to learn the location of menu options by repetition, i had to learn what i was looking for and what it does, so that when i went to use a new app i had to navigate it's different menu system or read the help to find what i needed.

Re:What's the difference?

[Bert64]

Not atall, while it's certainly better than locking people in to a propriatory vendor, the world is a diverse place and that's how kids should be taught. If you want to teach someone how to word process, dont teach them how to use a single app, teach them with multiple different apps that achieve the same end-goal, teach them how to use the help when they get stuck, teach them how to look through the menus to find what they're looking for.
The biggest problem nowadays is that people learn particular programs and instead of learning what theyre looking for, just learn the exact location of it and don't realise how to search through menus or helpfiles. This is why you have people who get stuck when their systems are upgraded or migrated.

Re:What's the difference?

[bechthros]

Wow. So let me get this straight - the purpose of computers in schools isn't to teach kids the greatest and broadest amount of skills (which would translate to having a wide and broad assortment of OS's and applications), it is instead to re-inforce your particular subjective opinion as to which OS is better and not allow them to learn anything else, even at the expense of their education or ability to make a decent living for themselves after graduation.

OK, got it. You realize this makes you just as evil as MS. More so, in fact, because students locked into Windows and Office environments have a distinct advantage in the hireability department for non-high-level-tech jobs, which is to say, for most of them.

School is for learning. Like I said before, Unix is great for kids who want to be developers or sysadmins. For average, everyday students, students who are going to wind up working as insurance actuaries, journalists, or restaurant managers, an intimate knowledge of the minutae kernel development is simply not required. Knowing how to prepare a report in Word, a chart in Excel, or a presentation in PowerPoint is.

Re:What's the difference?

[bechthros]

Oh, that's right, I forgot. There's no way anybody could ever use a unix variant for evil, right?

As long as you believe schools are for education, there's no justification for only teaching one system, no matter what it is. The more students learn the better. They need to have *ux/ix side by side with Windows and MacOS, and they need to learn all three.

Re:What's the difference?

[Dolda2000]

How about using any system that conforms to open standards? I'd say that would be anything except a Microsoft system.

Re:What's the difference?

[bechthros]

I'm getting so tired of repeating myself. School is for learning. The purpose of school is to educate, not to generate fanboys. The most effective school is the one that teaches things with the greatest depth and diversity. The best computer education a school could provide would cover MS, Mac and *ix/ux EQUALLY.

Re:What's the difference?

[Graymalkin]

How about not teaching a particular OS at all? It doesn't matter what computer system people are taught if they understand what they're doing and how it works in general. While you might not necessarily write a web based CRM in BASIC or Logo those languages do teach you the basics of programming arithmetic and flow control.

Word processing is the same way. You can teach people typography on a computer without requiring them to learn a particular application. Typography is typography, using a computer to compose a document simply gives you more flexibility than older mechanical methods. This is what needs to be taught to kids. Sticking three computers in front of them and expecting them to choose the best in their perspective is ridiculous as they aren't likely to magically know the ins and outs of each system to make such a choice. It isn't important that they know Windows or know Linux, it's important that they know how a computer works and what sort of stuff you can do with it.

Re:What's the difference?

[killjoe]

Sure but that will never happen as long as schools are only teaching MS products.

I say if you are only going to teach one thing then teach linux.

Your choices are not "teach a wide variety of technologies or teach only one" they are "choose one technology to teach out of these three options".

Re:What's the difference?

[killjoe]

"Wow. So let me get this straight - the purpose of computers in schools isn't to teach kids the greatest and broadest amount of skills (which would translate to having a wide and broad assortment of OS's and applications),"

See my comment elsewhere on this thread. I am simply saying that if you are going to teach a monoculture it's better to teach linux and whore your children out to a corporation. Remember schools today are only teaching one thing, either MS or Mac. It's not like they have a diverse curriculum and are going to narrow it down.

if you are teaching only one thing anyway then teach linux.

Re:What's the difference?

[bechthros]

Again, I must repeat myself. Knowing how to write a letter doesn't mean you know how to write one on a comptuer. Knowing how to use a word processor doesn't mean you know how to write a letter. Schools should teach both the fundamentals of composition as well as a broad variety of OS's and apps for doing so. What is so hard to understand?... Kids don't know the "ins-and-outs" of TV production but that doesn't stop them from having a favorite show. School is not the place for anybody's fanboyism to be forced on children, it's the place for them to learn as many and varied types of information as possible. Any school that doesn't teach how to use Windows is falling down on the job. Any school that doesn't teach how to use MacOS is falling down on the job. Any school that doesn't teach *ix/ux is falling down on the job. Any school that doesn't teach computing fundamentals is falling down on the job. None of them are mutually exclusive!

Just because you like something doesn't mean it's the only thing kids should learn.

Re:What's the difference?

[petermgreen]

btw the "BBC" computers were made by acorn

iirc the BBC held some kind of competition to design a computer for an introductory programming course and acorn won

the BBC model B was the original the model A was basically a stripped model B It had the same pcb but half the ram and a lot of perhiperal chips missing. It could be upgraded quite easilly to a model B (if you just wanted to run model B software you could upgrade without soldering but if you wanted the ports you had to solder)

then there was the acorn electron which had as much ram as the BBC B but had a slower clock and a very different physical design (whilst the BBC had space for things like a disk interface on the board the electron had an edge connector on the back).

then there was the B+ and the master series which added yet more to the line

i belive some of the archimedies machines had the BBC owl badge on them as well though they didn't have BBC in thier names

Re:What's the difference?

[Doppler00]

Your teacher helped you debug your Apple II code? In 6th grade, I had to debug my Apple II code myself. I mostly took programs I found it books and modified them in some way. Sometimes I even did it during recess instead of going outside to "play" with the other kids.

I made a lot of "screen savers" that seemed to impress people for whatever reason. But yeah, if it wasn't for at least some computers in schools I would probably never have been interested in programming to the extent that I am. I might not have been in the career I'm in now if it wasn't for computers in schools.

Also, if anyone suggests students should have to learn to write in cursive or write out documents you're nuts. There is no benefit whatsoever in that, unless of course you want to teach them Palm's Grafitti, then that's okay. :)

Re:What's the difference?

[RazzleDazzle]

I vote for BSD instead of Linux. Linux has the infectious license bug called GPL. Must go more free than GPL: BSD!

Ok, Linux is better than MS, but BSD is better than Linux. ;)

Re:What's the difference?

[Graymalkin]

Nowhere did I advocate teaching kids one particular paradigm of computing. Did your school not cover reading comprehension? What you're suggesting is schools go out of their way to provide platform hetrogeneity and stop "forcing" kids to learn one particular computing paradigm. This is wasteful and very unproductive.

There's millions of people using Palm based computers so the platform is obviously one that might be beneficial for people to know how to use. Your list doesn't include PalmOS. Why? You weren't thinking about it or it is unimportant to your particular view of the computing world. You likely don't own a Palm. Your plan does not properly expose school children to PalmOS, you're focing them to concentrate their studies and thinking patterns on desktop computing. It is easy to see that mobile computing is becoming more important and will likely continue to increase in importance in the future.

The idea behind your argument is you need to give children the most exposure to computer platforms as possible so they can make a choice as to which is their favorite or whatnot. It is not a high school or middle school or elementary school's job to teach children how to use a computer. It is their job to give them tools they will use later in life to teach themselves how to do and use anything they want. Composition is a tool, logic is a tool, research skills are a tool, reading comprehension is a tool. If you stick Reader Rabbit on a computer to help young kids learn to read it doesn't matter if it runs Windows or MacOS. If you're showing them how to type without killing their hands it doesn't make a lot of difference if the keyboard is a Happy Hacker or Apple Pro or Logitech. I'd rather the school just teach kids to find their own answers rather than fill their heads with a bunch of preposterous bullshit like Intelligent Design or Base 6. A kid taught how to find answers can easily move between Windows, MacOS, Linux, OS/2, CP/M, PalmOS, or their TiVo.

From a practicality standpoint, your idea of hetrogeneity isn't going to work because it is ungodly expensive for schools. They have lots of computers but a very small if any technical staff. Supporting more than a handful of different systems is often times ridiculously difficult. If a district wants systems their IT staff can't manage they're going to need a larger staff which adds another layer of departmental complexity. This in turn costs them more money and fewer resoources end up going to things like field trips or music programs.

Re:What's the difference?

[SamSim]

I say, have a Mac, a Winbox, and linux box all running side by side and let the students decide which one they want to use.

Um. 1) Much more hassle for the admins. 2) Spend three times as much on hardware. 3) Mac and Linux boxes would never get used. The kids would pick Windows every time.

Re:What's the difference?

[northcat]

The summary doesn't say Linux specifically, but OSS in general. And most Open Source OSes that matter are *nix systems so there won't be a "lock-in" since it's easy to switch between them. In fact, as far as lock-in is concerned, most system other than Windows are better as they *nix systems. But TFA is about cost, not lock-in. Again, OSS wins there.

Re:What's the difference?

[bechthros]

"This is wasteful and very unproductive."

Firstly, just because you say it doens't make it so. Secondly, it certainly wouldn't be the first thing in public school to be wasteful.

"The idea behind your argument is you need to give children the most exposure to computer platforms as possible so they can make a choice as to which is their favorite or whatnot."

That's a part of it. A bigger part is responsibly preparing students for what they'll face in the workplace, which today means Windows but could mean *ix/ux tomorrow, or Apple in very limited situations.

"You weren't thinking about it or it is unimportant to your particular view of the computing world."

I wasn't thinking about it, you're exactly right. And students should receive instruction on any system that's likely to be in use in the business world, Palm included.

"It is not a high school or middle school or elementary school's job to teach children how to use a computer."

Holy ivory tower, Batman. You don't have kids, do you? It most certainly is, especially the higher grades. My folks are both public school teachers, so believe me when I say that schools get scrutinized very closely to make sure that they do exactly that. You can have whatever opinion you want about computers in the classroom, but if you're writing this from inside America, understand that you've been outvoted. The parents want it taught, the districts want it taught, and the administration wants it taught. So guess what? It's gettin' taught! (Note: The "it" in this case is Microsoft systems and applications, exclusively)

"It is their job to give them tools they will use later in life to teach themselves how to do and use anything they want."

Right. Like knowing how to use a computer. Make up your mind, dude.

"Composition is a tool, logic is a tool, research skills are a tool, reading comprehension is a tool."

Which is why public schools teach all those things. Computers are tools as well, and the public schools have a mandate from the public to fulfill regarding the education thereof.

"A kid taught how to find answers can easily move between Windows, MacOS, Linux, OS/2, CP/M, PalmOS, or their TiVo."

You appear to have had absolutely zero interaction with any modern kids. If you think any average 15-year-old can move easily from windows to Linux I'm not sure there's any point to continuing this discussion. Your average high school SENIOR wouldn't have the foggiest idea what to do with a CLI.

"Supporting more than a handful of different systems is often times ridiculously difficult."

I'm not talking about more than a handful. I"m talking about what they're going to work with in the real world when they go to get a job as an insurance actuary, a car salesman or a secretary. Which means Microsoft, Apple, *is/ux, and Palm.

"If a district wants systems their IT staff can't manage they're going to need a larger staff which adds another layer of departmental complexity."

Now you're just being obstructionist. There are many, many potential solutions to funding and maintenance issues. If libraries - not to mention Kinko's - can keep PC's, macs, and proprietary IS running side by side, so can our schools. I refuse to subscribe to your notion that just because something might possibly be more difficult that it shouldn't be attempted.

Look, general computer concepts should be and are being taught in public schools. Whether you like it or not, certain particulars of comptuer usage are as well. As it stands now, in the vast majority of public schools this is Windows-based instruction. I'm advocating opening it up to include Apple, *ix/ux and Palm, to more accurately reflect the changing possibilities and diveristy found in today's workplace. You seem to be advocating for a continuing Windows lockin.

Re:What's the difference?

[bechthros]

"Um. 1) Much more hassle for the admins."

Have a slightly larger, more diverse tech team operate on-call district-wide, instead of one or two dedicated techs per school, who are either slammed to wall (cuz they're only two people) or sitting around doing nothing. Hire temps. Solutions exist.

Not to mention that the prime reason public school computer techs are busy, when they are busy, is because the public schools operate a MS-exclusive environment (usually XP) - which means that these poor guys are busy trying to patch or reapir the latest 'sploit or infection. Apple or *ix/ux systems, as long as they were set up properly, would IMHO require much less maintenance than Winboxen.

"2) Spend three times as much on hardware."

Surely you can't be so dense as to think that I'm advocating buying three times as many computers as w currently buy without a corresponding trebling of the student body. See here for what I've already said on the subject.

"3) Mac and Linux boxes would never get used. The kids would pick Windows every time."

Well, if only 1/3-1/2 of the boxes were Windows, and those were full, guess what they'd do? They'd figure out how to check their email on a Mac or *ix/ux, and learn a little bit about them in the process.

Remember, we're not just talking about open lab time here. We're talking about splitting the resources (instructional and financial) currently devoted to Microsoft-exclusive installations between MS, Apple, and *ix/ux - and Palm should probably be inlcuded as well. We're talking about some teaching time being devoted to alternate systems as well. Monoculture is BAD and shouldn't be the policy for public schools. It was bad when Apple did it, and it's bad when MS does it. When these kids get out in the workplace who knows what they're gonna be working with?

not really clear

[moz25]

While I certainly agree with the sentiment of the news article, isn't it a little premature to link to an article that only announces a real report. I am interested in the details and how they obtain the 24% mark. My estimate would be more in the 10% range.

Considering the earlier article regarding OpenOffice, it might make sense to calculate [expensive license] - free = savings. But where does that leave cheap academic licensing?

Re:not really clear

[pg110404]

My estimate would be more in the 10% range.

(all prices estimated in canadian $)
Let's add things up. XP Home, regular retail $150
MS office about $300

BASIC OS + BASIC OFFICE SUITE $450
I'm sure schools would purchase more than those two pieces of software alone, which pushes the software cost even higher.

Suppose schools get 50% discount, that's still $225.

If that is 10%, that's a computer worth $2,000 which would make some game loving script kiddie have wet dreams every night for months.

I'd estimate the 25% mark range is reasonably accurate considering schools will skip on certain high end components and go for something basic like built in audio/video/lan with a modest harddrive and CD reader. A system like that isn't worth a whole lot these days, only about $800-$900 which puts the $225 school cost in at around the 20-25% range.

Re:not really clear

[Bert64]

Well, schools often get a lot more than 50% discount, but it's still a lot expensive more than free. And you can get hardware brand new for quite a bit less than you stated too, so the software cost is still a sizeable chunk. Infact a lowend machine nowadays will actually cost less than the software running on it even if you just have windows+office.

Re:not really clear

[mikeb]

Some of the biggest savings (I've seen the unpublished report) are in maintenance and support. ICT technicians in schools are one of the most significant parts of the cost. Hardware and software costs spread over a number of years, but a salary is a recurring item. You REALLY get the attention of the head teacher if you are able to replace an 'unproductive' technician with a real live teacher instead.

If a school goes thin-client and recycles its existing PCs using Linux Terminal Server code, the case study I know of has dropped its technician hours from twelve hours a day to almost zero. That is very big money over a year, although not great news for the technician.

Re:not really clear

[Anonymous Coward]

Certainly judging studies by their covers is prototypically premature.

Let's also not forget politics and intent: one great way to deal with renegotiating contracts is by floating a study first that suggests that one might well switch to a competitor.

Microsoft Software bundles for schools are ridiculously cheap. Thin client scenarios are possible similarly on MS as well as OS operating systems. My guess is that someone fudged with the costs for support or assumed retail licensing to reach this specific verdict.

Re:not really clear

[gozar]

BASIC OS + BASIC OFFICE SUITE $450 I'm sure schools would purchase more than those two pieces of software alone, which pushes the software cost even higher.

Suppose schools get 50% discount, that's still $225.

American prices: Office Standard is around $55-$56 and XP is about the same price.

yes, let's train our students...

[saleenS281]

Let's train our students on software that they'll never see in the workplace so when they get into the real world and someone says "what's your experience with Microsoft office?" they can respond with "uhhh... none?"

I'm *SURE* the businesses will just change to open source though and spend billions of dollars instead of outsourcing to countries who have experience with microsoft office... I mean... look how hard they're trying to keep jobs in this country right now... oh...

Re:yes, let's train our students...

[jacen_sunstrider]

Come now. This word processor, that word processor; Any old one will do the same thing. I just say 'em all and learn to use it before they notice I didn't know how to use it.

Yay

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets make sure none of our students can use computers in the workplace! We already have one of the worst education systems on the planet, but no problem, lets make them worse in the interest of saving money.

Oh, sure, that'll work...

[Gilmoure]

...until Microsoft comes and 'buys you out'. /D'oh!

The Microsoft Mafia

[NatteringNabob]

At my son's school, there is a computer literacy test which students must pass to graduate. So what is the requirement for computer literacy? Writing a shell program? Creating a home page using HTML? Writing a business letter? No, of course not. The student must demonstrate that they know how to use Microsoft Word, Microsoft PowerPoint, and Microsoft Excel. I'm fairly certain that such a requirement would not hold up in court, but where did it come from in the first place?

Re:The Microsoft Mafia

[Reaperducer]

Maybe it came about because the parents who are tech-savvy can't be bothered to attend a local school board meeting. I've been to several hundred in three states, and they can be quite fascinating. I'm not even a parent.

Re:The Microsoft Mafia

[spasmatik]

several hundred school board meetings and you aren't a parent? Hah, nice hobby.

Re:The Microsoft Mafia

[Reaperducer]

It was part of my job back then.

Re:The Microsoft Mafia

[Adelbert]

I've just done a national (albeit non-compulsory) so-called "key skills" test here in the UK.

Far from being a school thing, this is a test for college students.

Easy enough, you might think. However, I ran into difficulties, finding I might not be able to pass, as I'd typed the files as a ".sxw" file, not a Word .doc.

Furthermore, there is a possibility in my upcoming A level computing exam, if I write an answer in Linux terminology rather than Windows I won't get the marks. Similarly, mark schemes have discriminated against those who write code in, say, Python instead of BASIC or Pascal.

I fully support schools converting to Linux, in whole or in part. However, the higher echelons of education need to adapt to catch up with these primary schools.

Re:The Microsoft Mafia

[g1zmo]

The exact same skills are required of all college graduates (at least here in Texas). At my school (from which I'm graduating next week!!), it's up to each department within the university how those requirements are met, but most departments just created a 1-credit-hour class that's required before you can graduate. In the CSE (my) department, it was lumped into a very generic "computer ethics" course that hardly no one goes to except to turn in their "lab assignments", which are things like creating a Word document, an Excel spreadsheet, PowerPoint presentation (!), etc.

Re:The Microsoft Mafia

[mwigmani]

Perhaps the requirement came about because Office is the software you will most likely use in the workplace.

Re:The Microsoft Mafia

[neopentane]

For my high school, we just had to list computer programs we could use--examples given were the MS Office programs. I wonder if my teacher ever figured out what vi and spfpc and some of the other stuff I mentioned were.

Re:The Microsoft Mafia

[Anonymous Coward]

...a very generic "computer ethics" course that hardly no one goes to except to turn in their "lab assignments", which are things like creating a Word document, an Excel spreadsheet, PowerPoint presentation...

and what kind of "ethics" are they teaching with this curriculum?

Seriously, this is George Orwell in action! What kind of double-speak is this? Taking one kind of action and labeling it something else: double-speak in truth!

Re:The Microsoft Mafia

[AJanuary]

Indeed, I am slightly annoyed at having to do my entire Computing AS course in Delphi next year. Whilst I recognise it would be difficault to move it to a more modern, say .NET language (which I would most prefer), C++ and Java have been around long enough to migrate the course too, and ime, they are much more useful languages.

Re:The Microsoft Mafia

[AJanuary]

It's saddening also that it seems the requirements of "able to use Word" is that people can insert a Word Art rather than using Paragraph Styles and such.

Re:The Microsoft Mafia

[Anonymous Coward]

Bull, I graduated last November from a Texas school. The graduation ceremony is being held soon and I don't plan to attend. No college in Texas is required to do this. The only reason many take these courses is they are an easy A for college credit and other courses, which would be more helpful in a career, are dropped for lack of interest. Thus anyone interested in graduating from a Texas college are forced to take useless courses that lead nowhere. Intro to programming, lack of interest, had to take Word Processing instead etc.
Most High School graduates in Texas are stupid, stupid, stupid!!!
How do I know this, because I've a son in the Texas Public School System and I've been sent home documents stating that any score under a C will be changed to a C one way or another. I didn't go to public school in Texas, however most of the crap they are teaching in Texas higher education is information one should have learned in eight grade. Bush just went to Latvia and I'll bet you 10 yrs ago, before he became President, that ignorant good ole boy SOB couldn't have pin-pointed where it was on a globe that was clearly label.

Re:The Microsoft Mafia

[JohnFluxx]

Heh, the computer ethics course that we had was the only lecture that was mandatory to attend. Miss too many ( I think 2) and you failed the module.
It was done so we could get BSA compliance or something.
(UK)

Re:The Microsoft Mafia

[TiggsPanther]

Too many of the UK computer-based courses/examinations tend to be extremely Windows-centric. And even the bits that aren't about Windows have questions written by examiners and not techies.
This latter wouldn't be a bad thing except that some of the "correct" terminology required to pass the exams are not the terms/answers I (and many other techie-types) would use.

It's also not always just Windows-centric, but specific-version-centric. Some of last year's ECDL questions were so XP-based that the answers were different on the Windows 98 PCs we use in our centre. The secondary sorting characteristics are different between the versions, and the people who wrote the paper had several files with the same last-modified stamp and wrote a question based on an assumption about the secondary sort the OS would use.
Upgrading is (sadly) not a simple matter - these computers are in desperate need of replacing this year yet I can tell that whoever hold the budget has decided we don't need to get new ones yet.

Yes, as people keep saying, it's good to know that people are going to be defaulting to knowing how to use the most commonly used office suite around. But sooner or later it's going to cause problems when someone with their shiny new ECDL or CLAIT (two computer-literacy qualifications) certificate gets stumped when they get hired by a Mac house or somewhere that insists on using a non-MS-Office suite on Windows.
That, and people are making assumptions that because Windows/MS-Office is the only thing taught that nothing else exists and, as such, produce files for people with this assumption.

Kids won't use a computer with Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Kids won't use a computer with Linux. They pass them up and always go to the ones with Windows, even waiting on line for an open keyboard when there are open Linux keyboards. Better to spend a few dollars more and get them used, than waste it all. Penny wise, pound foolish. Tony Blair coined that.

Bah.

[KhaZ]

Sure, the numbers make sense. But Microsoft DOES capitalize in making an 'easy to use' operating system. I don't know how many times I've spent wasting a weekend fiddling with X and getting the system up and running in order to get something even *remotely* useable. And then I'm not even all that interoperable with other products that I'd love to use anyways. And besides, if you're a school, your job is to teach students to use something relevant towards the rest of their life. Lets face it, it's an MS world out in business -- do you want to hurt your students ability to cope in industry by teaching them the Linux desktop and it's apps? Don't get me wrong, I love Linux and all, but it has always been used for it's console and it's services in my house, as I can't stand using X. *shrugs* But to each their own.

Re:Bah.

[incabulos]

Perhaps you dont know X and Linux as well as you like to think you do. Ever heard of Knoppix? Boot it on any x86 box with pretty much any video card, and it starts X and a full-featured desktop ready for use. It really *is* that easy.

I challenge you to get a usable Microsoft environment - desktop, IM, email, webbrowser, and office apps in ~5 minutes on any random box. Better yet, see if you can do it on a system with no harddrive.

Seriously, Linux has pulled so far ahead of Windows as a viable platform, you really need to take a look at current offerings. I struggled to get X running on Slackware back in 1994 sure, it took a couple of days and I knew little about X or linux at the time. Wasting days getting X working in this day and age is absurd - unless you enjoy the challenge of writing your own video and kernel driver, in which case it is a perfectly understandable use of time!

Oh sure now that's the case....

[i_want_you_to_throw_]

but as people get more and more accepting of OSS the more we'll see it. Who would've guessed 7 or 8 years ago that there would be an exodus of entire governments switching to OSS? Software is becoming a commodity in functionality. As an example Word became all anybody needed with Version 97. M$, as an ongoing business concern needs to keep selling upgraded software even if the new features are things you don't need. This isn't something that OSS suffers from. If it ever gets the bugs out completely Open Office is set to become much more important. After all why keep upgrading M$ stuff when you don't need to? (Munich anyone?)

If we ever see Google embrace Open Office and champion OSS then it could become a viable threat to M$, the likes of which M$ hasn't seen.

OSS has been making great inroads these last few years and sadly it is not going away as much as M$ would love to see happen. M$ just needs to learn the lesson that IBM did. As time goes by you have to evolve from a company that creates standards to one that contributes to them. The past is littered with the carnage of companies who did not learn this.

Not that M$ will ever go away.

Re:Oh sure now that's the case....

[Taladar]

Sorry to say that, but Google is too smart to embrace some bloated crap like Open Office that has only one point in favor of it and that is the license. In every other aspect they copied all the bad ideas in MS Office and they don't have 100% compatibility which would be the other reason to use something like that. Of course it is better than nothing but I (and lots of other people) usually regard Open Office is one of the worst high profile Open Source projects.

Re:Oh sure now that's the case....

[Bert64]

I hate openoffice as much as anyone, it's incredibly buggy bloated and slow..
But unfortunately, so are the alternatives.. Nothing has 100% compatibility with word docs, not even word itself between versions. There are many bugs in any office suite available today, one particular bug in word to do with macro line counting when you have bullet points has gone unfixed since 1997, and theres many more.

On the other hand, openoffice is making rapid progress, which is more than ms is.. There is a place to report bugs and then you can track the status as your bug report is investigated, confirmed by other people and eventually fixed. The more people who are affected by the bug, and vote for it in the bug tracking system, the sooner the developers will look at implementing a fix for it.
The bug tracking system is very similar to what mozilla uses, and not long ago people were saying mozilla was bloated buggy and unuseable, now look at firefox.. Openoffice is likely to go the same way, more likely infact because people have more to gain from openoffice than they do from mozilla...
And as for incompatibility, once office packages implementing the opendocument formats gain a significant percentage of the market, compatibility will become far less of an issue and eventually be reversed since ms doesn't support the open formats.

Re:Oh sure now that's the case....

[marcosdumay]

"Not that M$ will ever go away."

I don't know if this is true. Yes, MS has a lot of money to spend, but I doubt it can leave on a competitive market. Just look on how it has been adminitrated, how many projects are sucessful and make a fast comparaison on quality and usability of MS main products (Windows and Office) and the competition. Word is the only main MS product that beats the competitors, but is becomming worse, and the others are becomming better. MS also seems to not remember how to inovate, on products and on strategy.

Unfortunately, MS may not survive on a concurrent market. But I still have hope that it sell its code to other companies before it close the doors.

A few links to more "F/OSS in schools" articles...

[codergeek42]

http://edge-op.org/grouch/schools.html

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/schools.html

http://www.egovmonitor.com/node/695

Well bring it, then

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been ready, douchebag.

Linux comes from Eunuchs

[SunPin]

Didn't you know?

Re:Linux comes from Eunuchs

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what's worse. The fact that you were moderated as Informative or the fact that you were moderated as Troll as well.

So, one moderator is grossly misinformed (or at most missed the humor of your statement); the other has absolutely no sense of humor whatsoever.

Re:Linux comes from Eunuchs

[engywook]

Actually, that is only partly right, sorta.

Linux is a re-implementation of UNIX.

UNIX was named as a play-on-words, by folks that had been working on the Multics project. UNIX was an "emasculated" Multics.

Re:Linux comes from Eunuchs

[engywook]

BTW, That was fixed in 4bsd.

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[bechthros]

"Windows and Office are anachronisms"

Dude, pass some of whatever you've been smoking this way. Like I said elsewhere, I'm far from the president of the MS fan club, but anybody who gets any low- to mid-level job anywhere is going to be sitting in front of a Winbox and needs to know how to use it. Sure, Linux would be great to teach to kids who know at age 10 they want to be developers or sysadmins, but the average person working the average job is *gonna* be on Windows. It's unfortunate, but it's the truth. I was a production support analyst and mainframe operator for a Fortune 500 company, and guess how we interfaced with the AS/400's and mainframe? Using a terminal program running on a windows XP box.

The fact of the matter is that people who are very familiar with Windows and Office - not love it, mind you, but know how to use it with some degree of expertise - have an advantage in the job market over people who don't. Sad but true.

Someone should have let Henrico County know

[5n3ak3rp1mp]

Because they are switching back to Dells.

Granted, OS X is not open-source, but I would have been OK with an OS X to complete-open-source migration. I am not OK with an OS X to Windoze backwards migration.

Re:Someone should have let Henrico County know

[TylerL82]

Actually, they'd been using OS 9 on most of not all of the laptops in Henrico county.
OS 9 is not what I would consider a good demonstration of what Apple's capable of in 2005...

Either system would've been a big leap from what they had. Oh well.

Being an Apple fan, I'd like to hear the problems they have with the new Dells, or the extra work they might have to do or the extra money they'll pay for support, etc.

Re:Someone should have let Henrico County know

[Anonymous Coward]

This is going to blow up in their faces, and I cannot wait for it to happen.

I hope the pro-Mac people in that county who fought this ass-backwards initiative and lost don't let the coming massive increases in support costs and computer downtime get swept under the rug by the school board.

If someone can pry hard, accurate numbers from somewhere, the experiences of Henrico County will become the best and most objective Mac vs. Windows TCO study done in recent years.

Two sides of this story

[fluor2]

Well. I do agree to some extent. . but it's not all about TCO or MONEY here:

The Universites and schools is about delivering GOOD graduate students. This is the real capital turnover for those.

Also, one must not forget that many universites and such have a large number of technical-staff, which may now not be needed, as the Microsoft platform do not need as much local support as before. But many educational institutions refuse to "let them go"... And trust me, it require MORE staff for Linux/unix than Windows now. But this might of course change.

I refuse to have a dozen students that have to comply with OpenOffice when they write larger documents. It's still too buggy!

Re:Two sides of this story

[Nex6]

Not true:

It does NOT take more Linux admisn to maintain a linux network then a admin a microsoft network. its the other way arround.

it takes fewer *nix admins to maintain a large network then a large microsoft one. there have been lots of studys and such on the matter. it all comes down to the skill sets of the ppl involved.

-Nex6

Re:Think of the kids

[j14ast]

Anything might be a bit strong, let me fix it. The money you save by not using (insert fad tech that the kids already know about here) will be paid ten fold down the road when the kids aren't getting education due to a never-available and always buggy infrastructure.
The only time a book is buggy is when its a life science book!
(look the whole computer in every classroom thing is bunk, computers as textbooks is well and good (especialy if it drives down the absurd cost of text books that are factualy no diffrent from the last 10 editions but are a new version to drive sales, the way schools have been using computers thus far is so far from how they should its terrifying)

MSDN?

[bsquizzato]

What about the http://msdn.microsoft.com/academic/default.aspx
MSDN Academic Alliance?

MS offers a lot of options to educators. Schools can get a whole load of software for varying prices prices.

My teacher for my networking class has subscribed this year to MSDNAA for about $800, and students and teachers can receive all the operating systems, visual studio, other programs I've never even heard of, etc. We've got two full CD slip cases of MS software, and we get sent new CDs each month. We have XP volume license keys, and for software that isn't a volume licensed version there is a database of keys that can be used specifically by students. The only downside is Office isn't included in the package my teacher subscribed to, oh well. There's varying packages which contain more and more software, thus costing more money.

It's basically the same thing they offer to colleges and universities.

Also, if school systems made the switch to open source, there'd be a lot of training programs that'd have to be run. Lots of faculty meetings, etc. The whole attendance, grading, etc. system runs on Windows-based computers at the schools in my county now. Switching all of that over would probably require a lot more money than they'd be saving in the short term.

Re:MSDN?

[leathered]

Indeed. Much as it pains me to say it, MSDNAA is very good value for money. The CS department in which I work pays UKP 250 ($480) a year for all client and server operating systems and all apps (except Office) with free copies for the students.

Compare that with the obscene prices we (used to) pay Borland ($12,000), Macromedia ($7,000) and Symantec ($5,000).

Although we do have a number of Linux machines, the cost and effort to move over entirely is prohibitive for the reasons you described. Now it never used to be like this. Microsoft used to be one of our greatest expenses and if they were charging now what they charged a few years ago, today we would be using OSS exclusively.

Re:MSDN?

[mattyrobinson69]

but there's the long term. plus there's the educational benifits from using more than one operating system

there's a way to get free microsoft windows

[tofucubes]

maybe schools should try it...they find a talented college kid getting locked up in prison his whole life anyway from the RIAA and make him pirate a few hundred million copies of windows for schools. http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/purchase/QualifyI nfo.aspx

Schools Pay for Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

Several years ago I did work taking old donated computers (lots of 386 machines) and putting together school computer labs (sometimes replacing an old Apple //e lab). Every one of these was loaded with Windows (Windows for Workgroups, though later when 486 and Pentium class machines started coming in in large enough quantities to build labs Windows 95) and some had other Microsoft software as well. The schools getting the computers didn't pay a cent for the hardware, the software, the installation, and in some cases for the Internet connection. The MS software that was used was all donated by Microsoft. Has Microsoft discontinued its program of donating software for school labs?

BTW, I use Linux at home and at work (when I can), love it, and would see no problems putting it into schools, especially if MS is no longer giving away licenses for school labs.

Skolelinux is the school linux distro...

[Compunerd]

Take a look at http://skolelinux.org/ to see what can be done to create an elemtary school distro. It's installation friendly, somehow userfriendly (KDE 2) and has nice setups for thin-client environments.

roy

Re:Skolelinux is the school linux distro...

[Alex Brasetvik]

For those interested, I'll elaborate a bit about Skolelinux:

Skolelinux (School Linux in Norwegian) is a customized Debian distribution. It's based on Woody, but a version based on Sarge is in the works.

The philosophy of Skolelinux is that it should be super easy to install and -- most importantly -- maintain. The installer asks three questions -- language, password and a profile, where the profile is either "Main server", "Thin client server" or "Workstation". Then, centralized authentication and file storage, backups, mail, DNS, etc. is configured automagically.

The thin client part of Skolelinux has been a real success, allowing lots of schools to use old equipment they recieve for free.

Take a look at this report for a governmental report on benefits of Skolelinux; including economically, or just poke around on its homepage for more information.

(Slashdot coverage of the 1.0-release)

Kansas-Do Attitude

[Anonymous Coward]

Think how much they would save if they just got rid of the computers.

Think how much more they could save if they just got rid of science.

How difficult is a word processor?

[Colin Smith]

Good god, would you really want to employ someone who was unable to transfer their knowledge of one application on to another of the same type?

Then there's the corollary, would you want to work for the kind of muppets who couldn't realise that the concepts are the same for all word processors, hell even the menu layouts are similar.

Reality check. People who are this dumb are going to get eaten alive in the globalised economy.

Re:How difficult is a word processor?

[man_of_mr_e]

If all you will hire is people with that kind of skill, you won't be hiring many people, and you'll be paying them large salaries.

The fact is, the vast majority of people need to be given an explicit set of instructions on how to use a program, and don't have the skills necessary to deviate from them (at least not successfully. Often, you'll find the guy that deviates all the time and screws everything up in the process because he doesn't understand his limitations. It would be fine if he leared from his mistakes, but he doesn't.. he keeps making them).

Most people view a computer as a tool, like a telephone or a car. Those devices are pretty standard from system to system (at least the basic functions anyways) while computers have even basic function differences that confuse people (do I click start or click on that big K?)

If a car required the kind of knowledge it takes to run a computer, you'd see every car with controls in a different place. One would have the gas peddle on the right, one on the left. There is a reason basic functionality is always the same on appliances.

Re:How difficult is a word processor?

[Waffle Iron]

The fact is, the vast majority of people need to be given an explicit set of instructions on how to use a program, and don't have the skills necessary to deviate from them

Perhaps learning to use different programs in schools at a young age will help to teach them how not to get stuck in that kind of rut.

Re:How difficult is a word processor?

[Colin Smith]

"If all you will hire is people with that kind of skill, you won't be hiring many people, and you'll be paying them large salaries."

Bollocks I will. If they don't have those kinds of (pretty bloody basic) skills, there are 1,000,000,000 Chinese who will at a fraction of the cost.

Re:How difficult is a word processor?

[TheGavster]

The globalized economy likes dumb people. The system prefers people who do precisely what they are told, don't ask questions, and aren't always coming up with some nonstandard way of doing things. When something innovative is actually done, it was in direct opposition to whatever authority managed the person who did it. Hurrah for the benefits of cheap labor!

Re:How difficult is a word processor?

[man_of_mr_e]

Perhaps learning to use different programs in schools at a young age will help to teach them how not to get stuck in that kind of rut.

That would be a great idea, but that isn't what's being proposed. All that's being proposed is to swap Office for Open Office. In other words, they'll just learn how to use one word processor, not several. A different one than (at least currently) is in use by the majority of potential employers.

It will also save them millions of headaches

[PenguinBoyDave]

Since I put Linux into my son's old school, NO MORE PROBLEMS! Go figure.

Shhhhhhh!

[Locke2005]

SCO has a copyright on Eunuchs! Although we're fairly sure Darl isn't one... in fact, some of us are wondering how the guy even manages to walk will cajones that big!

No kidding

[Gabey]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but this would be a tremendous move for schools. Having computers in the classroom is an enormous waste of resources -- teachers rarely know how to use them, students don't use them productively, they're a hassle to maintain (especially if you allow web browsing on them, regardless of the browser you use -- kids will be kids), they're a waste.
Computers belong in labs and specialized situations in schools (we had a pretty successful mac lab for a media production class at my high school, for instance), and rarely anywhere else. If it makes sense to use a computer for a lesson (typing up a paper, a research day, etc), the teacher can sign up for the lab (that is easily maintained, and can often be staffed by students).

Re:No kidding

[Elshar]

This is how we did it when I was in high school (93-96ish). We had two labs. The main computer lab containing 40-60 computers, and a 'math/science' lab containing approximately 20 or so machines.

There were no other computers at all in any of the classrooms. And it worked amazingly well, too. When a class needed a lab, they just reserved it and everything was ready. No games, chat, etc. Just the software needed to do the schoolwork at hand.

Re:No kidding

[Spy der Mann]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but this would be a tremendous move for schools.

Okay kids, for tomorrow bring me a 10 pages essay on blahblahblah. And DO NOT use computers! It has to be done by hand!
-What?
-But teacher...
-No way!

Yeah, tremendous move indeed.

Re:No kidding

[vertinox]

I don't think computers are needed in the classroom, but they should be provided for those who don't normally have access to them.

I remember in my high school days (even though I had a 486 at home) I learned most of my valued computer skills of the time at the school computer club with other interested students.

Even though it involved playing allot of Doom... At we learned how to network DOS computers in the process!

Re:No kidding

[Anonymous Coward]

You want a solution to prevent the kids from screwing up the computers?

Two words: Deep Freeze

Wonderful program.

Re:No kidding

[Gabey]

Perhaps you missed the idea of having labs. Besides, maybe kids should be doing more by hand -- libraries are still extremely useful tools that get used less and less because of the Internet. Don't you think a kid should have that skill?

My handwriting is horrible, so I'm not going to attempt to argue that it would be better off if kids wrote more rather than typed -- I put teachers through enough making them read my longhand, I wouldn't want to inflict more torture on them.

Re:No kidding

[YukonTech]

I work as a technician for a dept of education, I have read a lot of information, studies, and articles about computers in schools and a lot of them have the same thing to say. "computers in schools did not help kids with their math, science, english, history etc.. ". It is unfortunate that some teachers do rely to much on using computers to teach students the old "core basics" that students used to need in their daily life after high school. It is also unfortunate that a lot of people don't seem to realize that times change. For instance 10 years from now (when students are in the workplace) typing skills will be more important than hand writing skills in the day to day life of the workplace. IMHO Computers/technology should be treated as a whole new subject, right beside math and science. 10 years from now anyone who does not have at least a basic skills and understanding of copy/paste, files and folder, workstations and servers, users and passwords, and finally the internet and how to sift through the garbage to find what you need quickly will be at a great disadvantage. A lot of the skills listed above can not be taught exactly but they come from general use of computers, while a student is researching their english paper on google they are learning and gainging experience sifting through the mess that is the internet, while they type up the english report they are learning to type, use formatting, and yes even the benifits (and negitives) of spell check. Computers have an important part to play in education, and I'll be the first to admit that they are not always used properly or to the childrens benifit but that has been happening for years. I can not count the amount of my class time that was wasted when I was young by lazy, and un-involved teachers, computers may be the new crutch but it is the teachers that are at fault. Computers arn't teachers, teachers are. Computers are a tool.

Re:No kidding

[Gabey]

Absolutely...computers should be there, but they shouldn't be strewn all over a school. I learned a lot about DOS/Netware trying to hide installations of Warcraft II on my school's network, so I can definitely identify.

The problem is that computers and technology are seen as the answer to everything in a school -- class underperforming? Put some computers in there. Weak teacher? Have him do his lessons "digitally" (powerpoint). Students not paying attention? Add multimedia (sound effects to the powerpoint).

If people would step back for a second and look at how these resources are actually being used (and think about how they could realistically be used in the future), so much money/time/effort could be saved. It's a shame, really.

Re:No kidding

[div_2n]

Please. Just because you have the inability to envision ways of utilizing computers in classrooms doesn't mean it can't, isn't or shouldn't be done. For example, Tablet PCs could one day put all classroom text books into one device. This could help save more money by making textbook replacement easier.

Computers are not a panacea. They can, however, be used to compliment the learning process.

Re:No kidding

[Anonymous Coward]

Regardless of whether or not I can envision ways to use computers productively, the vast majority of teachers cannot. I speak as someone who worked in my school district for 6 years (high school and parts of college).

With all of the problems school systems have, throwing thousands of dollars at tablet PCs so students don't have to carry books around just doesn't seem like a productive use of funds to me.

(Posting AC because I've babbled enough on this topic under my own name)

Re:No kidding

[Aldric]

Typing is more important than hand writing already, due to email. I don't know about anyone else but communication and organisation would take much longer without it. Don't know about anyone else but I much prefer being up to speed on a topic before walking into a meeting!

Re:No kidding

[Atomic Fro]

I totally agree with you. The three years I went to a highschool in Washington state, the highschool would buy two labs worth of new computers for the business education department -> always macs. My senior year Microsoft gave the school a ton of cash to teach MS software in classes. I signed up for MS Office Certification.
Here's the kicker -> The teacher, head of the Business Ed department, didn't have a clue. The whole class was us students doing projects out of an MS supplied text on our own. And the text was geared for windows, not the shinny new lickable iMacs the school had just bought. So what happened was the teacher would sit back and play Quake on his system while the rest of us would play java and flash games on the internet. Total and complete waste of time.

Re:No kidding

[Zeussy]

After being in a secondary/high school and college with well equipped computers in classrooms as well as computer rooms. Let me tell you about the wonders of the interactive whiteboard.

Things have moved on from the day of having a 486 in the corner of the class. We have projectors linked up to whiteboards, like a giant graphics tablet.

This is great for maths, draw the graph of a differential out in derive, copy and paste it, and anotate. Can zoom right down onto turning points. And when ur done, no more wiping, just hit new page. Time saving as well. No need for the oh the pen has run out crap either. For physics, demo's can be run showing how particles interact etc. Instead of trying to decipher the teachers diagrams.

Re:No kidding

[MsGeek]

One acronym: K12LTSP.

Use ancient PCs as diskless clients, the kind your school used to throw out when companies would donate them, cobble together an Athlon64 server, voila.

The kids can't screw up what they don't have access to. And Deep Freeze costs. K12LTSP is FREE.

Re:No kidding

[japhmi]

Yes, things like that - where the teachers have training and proper equipment - can be helpful.

99.9% of 'computers in the classroom' do absolutely crap. It's all publicitity and grant funding.

Re:No kidding

[Anonymous Coward]

> Use ancient PCs as diskless clients, the kind your school used to throw out when companies would donate them, cobble together an Athlon64 server, voila.

Right, that's not going to cost anything to maintain. How good of you to volunteer your services for FREE to maintain all these ancient PC's.

Re:No kidding

[Anonymous Coward]

Computers are not a panacea. They can, however, be used to compliment the learning process.

the problem right now is that between purchasing, licensing, maintenance and security the computer lab often ends up eating the budget. Do the math: Each lab of 30 computers needs to be replaced every three years to use current commercially available software. A good general purpose lab is going to need a lot more software than just the OS and MS Works so factor that in for licensing. Because of the way change is driven in the industry, all of those licenses also need to be replaced on the same cycle. Every computer needs to be physically installed (bolted down). Due to the large number of distinct users, the systems need more technical resources...fiugre about 1/2 FTE unless you can con the computer teacher into doing it on their own time.

You are looking at a single classroom that means $40-50K/year over and above the basic cost of a room. If you are using a 5 class system and you expect every student to take computer courses (wise), you need one lab per 150 students.

Re:No kidding

[Anonymous Coward]

Schools should use thin clients like SunRay. They'd be bought on educational discount, so if a student destroys one, either the student can afford to pay for it, or the school's out only a couple hundred bucks. The real thousands of dollars worth of equipment is then safely locked away in another room.

Re:No kidding

[gozar]

Computers belong in labs and specialized situations in schools (we had a pretty successful mac lab for a media production class at my high school, for instance), and rarely anywhere else. If it makes sense to use a computer for a lesson (typing up a paper, a research day, etc), the teacher can sign up for the lab (that is easily maintained, and can often be staffed by students).

There was a study done in West Virginia on computers in a lab setting versus computers in the classroom. When the computers were in the classroom, students used the computers more and scored higher on tests. The problems with labs is that all the teachers are competing for a limited resource, so they can't use it as well. When the computers are in the classroom, students are more apt to use them, especially for quick research. Teachers can set them up as a center for small groups of students to work while the teacher works with other small groups.

Re:No kidding

[Orgazmus]

Insert disk.
Not working = Reboot
Not working after reboot = $50 replacement

Re:No kidding

[NanoGator]

" teachers rarely know how to use them, students don't use them productively..."

I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to be a little nitpicky here.

Very much of your statement is true today. However, I think it's important to note a couple of things:

1.) I'd be willing to bet that the teachers that don't know how to use computers are also of an older generation. Can you imagine that being true 10 years from now considering how many homes have active personal computers these days?

2.) Students being productive... well that's really kind of hard to measure. Students will always be doing stuff on computers they shouldn't be. That doesn't mean they're not learning, though. Using ICQ and IRC, for example, indirectly taught me some significant stuff about networking and collaboration. (At the job I'm working at now, we're starting to use IM and forums for productive means.)

It's also worth mentioning that when the teachers become more adept with computers, they'll be able to make more effective use of them with their students. General use of the internet is becoming VERY important in a broad variety of careers.

Hopefully now you'll understand why I say that I don't agree with your comment about computers only belonging in specialized situations in schools. When I think back to most of the courses I took in high school I can think of a good use for an internet-connected computer in most of them. In some cases, it'd simply be a note taking device. In some, applications would be useful. Heck, if they'd do it right (and in most cases, they probably aren't. I cannot deny this strongly supports your point.) they wouldn't even need text books.

Re:No kidding

[Anonymous Coward]

Following up --

You're absolutely right, things may be (hopefully will be) different in the future. In fact, my judgement is a bit skewed already since I haven't worked for a high school in a few years now, so maybe things have gotten better.

I would have loved to have taken notes on a computer in high school -- hell, I would've taken more notes, period. But unless the school were to supply every student with their own laptop, that just doesn't seem feasible...and schools that can afford that are few and far between.

I guess my biggest problem with the whole thing is the lack of vision and direction that school administrators have when it comes to technology. It's been said a million times on here, but computers are seen as the savior -- turn them on, and the students are smarter. For some of us, we'll explore with IRC and ICQ and a hundred other applications and learn things from them...for most, well...

It's frustrating to see thousands of dollars thrown at a problem with no idea how to effectively use them when in the meantime entry level teachers are making practically nothing; good teachers are constantly frustrated by incompetent administrators and apathetic parents; and bad teachers, well, everywhere.

Responding to the interactive whiteboard comment above -- yes, they're extremely cool. We had one at my school and exactly two people ever used it -- me, and the superintendent who purchased it. Nobody else knew how, nobody else wanted to learn how, nobody else cared.

Sorry for the unstructured rant, especially since I do largely agree with your comment, but education is a sore spot for me, I guess.

-gabey

Re:No kidding

[mrchaotica]

We had computers in my high school. You know what they were used for?

• There was one in every classroom that the teachers used solely for email and taking attendance
• There were some for the various "computer classes" (i.e., word processing and CCNA prep) that students used to play games
• There were a few old, neglected Macs and 100MHz IBMs that actually got used for science and economics simulations

The vast majority of the computers in schools go to waste. Better they not have them at all, and put more effort into actually teaching.

Re:No kidding

[YukonTech]

What does a computer have to do with how much effort a teacher puts into teaching? I agree there are lots of teachers who either don't care or are to lazy to properly teach, the problem is with or without a computer that will not change. Teachers simply aren't accountable, the hard working teachers who put everyting into teaching get paid the same as the 9-5 lazy teacher who hands out photocopies and workbooks.

Computers have become a scapegoat for people not wanting to admit our education system has problems.

Re:No kidding

[mrchaotica]

Computers have become a scapegoat for people not wanting to admit our education system has problems.

I think we're both arguing the same thing.

My point is that if they stopped spending the money on computers, they could (presumably) spend it on fixing the system instead (by hiring more qualified teachers, or better oversight to weed out the bad ones, or research into teaching strategies, or whatever).

Economics of Supply & Demand

[clinko]

Seems like the average economics student could figure out this is bullshit.

Supply of msft admins = high
Supply of non-msft admins = low

Replacing all msft admins with the low # of non-msft admins = high demand for a low amount of resources.

Which makes the non-msft admins outrageously expensive. Thus, negating the savings...

Seriously, where is the average school in po-dunk Mississippi going to find a quality non-msft admin cheaply when a drop-out could do msft administration?

Re:Economics of Supply & Demand

[Colin Smith]

Seems like.

You missed out the quality of the admins and the numbers of problems which have to be solved per desktop etc etc.

I for example am quite expensive. I can on the other hand quite easily set up a system that supports hundreds, thousands of concurrent users and requires bugger all administration, on cheap commodity, even obsolete, hardware. A small amount of time from an expensive admin is cheap. A large amount of time from a cheap admin is expensive.

Re:Economics of Supply & Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus there's the time cost of training the school to use Linux. And that will add up during the transition phase. Not many people (students and faculty alike) have had exposure to Linux, so it will all be new to them.

Another factor is that you'd need open source educational software. I'm not sure there's a lot of that out there at this point in time.

Re:Economics of Supply & Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

ignoring that your argument is circular... as in, there's a low number of oss admins because there's less demand. increase demand corresponds to increase in supply. people follow $. ... i general agree with you with regards to very low budget schools. that doesn't however explain why m$ is standard at universities, much less well funded highschools, and even less so at elementary schools.

Re:Economics of Supply & Demand

[jmorris42]

> Seriously, where is the average school in po-dunk Mississippi going to
> find a quality non-msft admin cheaply when a drop-out could do msft
> administration?

No they can't. It is this belief that causes most Windows installations to be utter crap and costs the world economy billions annually if not trillions in lost productivity. To get a Windows installation to even approximate what we UNIX heads call stability requires skilled admins, not paper MCSE drones. They cost just as much or more as UNIX heads of similar skill level.

Of course a Windows admin still can't admin as many boxes as a UNIX guy and they are like AD&D elves, they have that annoying level limit when they hit the wall of what MS reveals unto them and they can't call on the source or just email the developer with a question.

Plus, the supply of Linux talent is rising. I live deep in flyover country, working at a rural public library. We keep several copies of Linux in our collection and they circulate on a prety regular basis.

Re:Economics of Supply & Demand

[Bert64]

Because the drop-outs do a poor job, and end up with poorly running spyware/virus infested networks..
Sure, someone clueless *can* run a windows network, but they don't do a very good job of it.. Securing windows to the extent required to prevent the students and internet nasties making mincemeat of the network is actually MUCH HARDER than doing the same on a unix platform. You have to disable a lot of core functionality of the os because it's flawed and insecure, you have to heavily restrict apps like word because they have the ability to execute arbitrary programs via ole objects or macros etc - you dont want students running command prompts or arbitrary apps they downloaded..
Aside from that, as the demand for non-ms admins increases, so will the supply, as people will see it as a lucrative business to move into.

Re:Economics of Supply & Demand

[NullProg]

Seems like the average economics student could figure out this is bullshit.

Then I guess this means your well below an average economics student :)

The city of Largo, Brazil, Auto Zone and hundreds of companies don't think so. What Linux distribution have you been using that its harder to admin and lock down over a Linux box?

msft admins
Kids these days know more work-arounds than any public school paid windows admin. At the keyboard my kids could hack Windows in three minutes. Hell my son just fixed the Libraries XP box (Wouldn't boot, bios settings). So much for the school's drop-out Windows admin. He dual-boots Windows/Linux on the computer in his room (my son, not the admin ).

Enjoy,

Re:Economics of Supply & Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

All they need to do is stop by their local LUG. I'm sure they'll find plenty of homeless, unemployed hackers that would be willing to sysadmin for food.

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course if you could teach someone to use a command line oriented operating system like Linux or heck, even DOS, then they will probably be much better off anyway. Windows isn't exactly a complicated OS.

Why stick with one OS?

[xv4n]

A good education system would show students the different OS alternatives existing out there -- Mac, Windows, Lunix, etc.. But, hey, that's just my opinion.

About the cost

[Anonymous Coward]

The article is about the *cost*, and you propose a solution that will cost 3 times (probably more, as different systems increase maintenance costs) the current one.

Hell, there's 300,000 different distros out there, why doesn't someone make one geared towards education?

Re:About the cost

[bechthros]

Allow me to clarify. For every three Winboxen or Apples now operating in exclusivity, there should be one of each. Obviously I wasn't advocating schools buying 3X the computers they would need. It doesn't have to be split into exact thirds, either. I think it's fair to say that at the pre-college level, at most 20% of kids would be interested in *x, at most 30% in Apple. I just think we shouldn't force them to conentrate on only learning one system.

Re:About the cost

[Bert64]

Well, both the windows and macos machines could quite happily dual boot with linux for no extra cost.

Re:About the cost

[bechthros]

Excellent point. Of course, this would only be possible if the schools hadn't signed a contract with either MS or Apple stating that they'd run their systems exclusively.

Getting real in the schools

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a Canadian elementary school computer teacher with a lot of sympathy for the open source movement running a lab full of Windows systems. The question has come up continually whether we could save money (which we have very little of) by switching to open source software. We've already made OpenOffice the standard word processor/etc tool in our school, and I'm busy promoting its use around my large urban school district. We also have TuxType, TuxMath, and TuxRacer installed throughout our computer lab. However, switching to Linux is a whole other issue... my systems already came with Windows (mostly Win98) licenses, so there's no savings in replacing an already paid-for Windows with a free Linux. Our school district only officially supports purchases of IBM, Seanix, or Apple-branded hardware, all of which comes with a (non-Linux) OS installed, and we have virtually no budget for buying new hardware in any case. Most of the computers we get these days are 'new to us' donations-- and Microsoft has a little-known but real world-wide program called Fresh Start for Education that offers free Win98 or Win2000 for donated systems. So there's no cost savings. Moreover, I've got a standard package of productivity and educational programs that I use with kids-- all of which are open source or freeware... all for Windows. I'm sure there are some similar programs for Linux, and I would be very happy to be pointed to a website that listed such resources. But unless there was a vastly greater range of such resources, for my school, moving from Windows to Linux would mean a complex transition resulting in having fewer productivity apps, educational apps, and kid-friendly non-violent games while saving the school no money at all. Despite my real sympathies, I can't justify what would be a huge investment in my time for such a project.

Re:Getting real in the schools

[NullProg]

First, half the readers here don't see your post unless you have an ID. Get a slashdot ID.

I'm pretty sure that no-one cares if you run your labs with windows. Teach the kids the basics. Word Processing, Spreadsheets etc. You can do this with windows or Linux.

For your programming classes, look at Java, OpenWatcom, Mono, Python etc. All run under Windows/Linux just fine.

Despite my real sympathies, I can't justify what would be a huge investment in my time for such a project.
No one is asking you to waste tax-payers money.
Teach the kids the fundamentals. Learn Linux for yourself.

Enjoy,

24% per computer?

[Excelsior]

The report shows an average saving of 24% per computer

Sorry to pick nits, but qualifying 24% with "per computer" is meaningless.

Re:24% per computer?

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

It's not meaningless, it's just wrong. It means that if they bought 4 computers they could save 96%.

Re:24% per computer?

[pg110404]

Unless they have something like 1000 computers or a similarly rediculously large number of 'seats' it might be cheaper to buy individual licenses per machine which still makes it 'per computer'.

They could instead pay a hefty license for the 'corporate' version of windows which no longer makes it 'per computer', but more 'per seat' and the more computers they purchase, the per seat cost drops.

To me, 24% per computer and 24% per seat are two different things and adding that qualifier is a reasonable statement.

Re:24% per computer?

[igny]

Yeah, clearly, 24 per cent per computer is a mistake of editors.

Re:24% per computer?

[kbielefe]

Better than that. If they buy 5 computers they start turning a profit!

And computers...

[Kjella]

I am single, a musician.. alcoholic.. addicted to porn and constantly refreshing slashd..

nevermind.. keep the computers.

Single: Yep, being a computer nerd is a great way not to be single.
Musician:
Alcoholic: After seeing the goatse.cx man, they will be.
Addicted to porn: There is no porn online. Really.
Slashdot: Nope, don't find that online either.

So yeah, let them keep the computers. At least that'll keep them from becoming musicians. Probably on EverCrack or something to keep them busy, but hey. They're saved from the worst of it, eh?

Kjella

academic software???

[big-giant-head]

Every corp I worked for in the last 12 years:

AVIS Rent a Car,
Red Sky Interactive (Dot Com failure so maybe they don't count?)
Mens Wearhouse
Hertz Rent A Car
FAA

All of the big app servers have been Solaris or Linux or AIX..... Granted they had windows desktops, windows servers for Peoplesoft, but all the Oracle/DB2, Java App server, Transaction management, Messanging etc.. Everything I actully wrote code on/for was some kind of *nix box.

So I keep hearing about the importantance of knowing Office etc.. I could see that it has some value, but I have NEVER hired anyone nor been hired myself based any kind of m$ office skills....

If somone is smart and can learn Word perfect or open Off or m$ off, then they can easily learn another package.

Re:academic software???

[ThePlague]

If somone is smart and can learn Word perfect or open Off or m$ off, then they can easily learn another package.

That's very true, and does make for a more valuable employee in theory. However, jobs rarely advertize for someone "able to learn foo", rather for someone who knows foo now.

Re:academic software???

[Anonymous Coward]

Add another UNIX server to the others, and you could even replace the Windows desktops with SunRays using the same admin staff as before.

Actually, you could reduce the staff, becuase practically no one is needed to make wasteful office visits once Windows is dumped.

Re:academic software???

[wallykeyster]

Everything I actully wrote code on/for was some kind of *nix box.

So I keep hearing about the importantance of knowing Office etc.. I could see that it has some value, but I have NEVER hired anyone nor been hired myself based any kind of m$ office skills....

If somone is smart and can learn Word perfect or open Off or m$ off, then they can easily learn another package.

While I agree with your comments, Slashdotters don't seem to realize that most school children aren't going to grow up to be coders or sys admins. In fact, most are not. If you want to be realistic about this, think about billing clerks, secretaries, accountants, and school teachers. The average hiring manager wants someone who has experience with the particular tools they use. When looking for experience, depth is often given much more weight than breadth.

If you were hiring a help desk position in a Microsoft Office environment and had two basically equal candidates, but the first had used Microsoft Office for years while the other had used OpenOffice or Corel Office, which are you going to choose?

Re:academic software???

[dsci]

If you want to be realistic about this, think about billing clerks, secretaries, accountants, and school teachers.

Yes, but what are those tools going to be when today's school children are in the marketplace. We're talking 10 years or so down the road, minimum.

I have no doubt that Windows (whatever incarnation) will still be prevalent, but I personally don't think the marketshare numbers will remain as lopsided as they are today.

So, part of the question becomes: how insightful will the school administrators look to the future? In my opinion, Linux is coming (as an alternative taken seriously), and F/OSS in general definitely has a place in education.

Re:academic software???

[guitaristx]

When looking for experience, depth is often given much more weight than breadth.

I beg to differ. I'm considered the "Linux expert" at my workplace, but I wouldn't have been hired if it wasn't for my programming skills, MS experience, and comfortability in a very heterogenous environment. Computer software changes so rapidly that extensive ingrained experience with any tool is a liability, not an asset. It tends to indicate, more often than not, difficulty and opposition for anything different, no matter how the suitability compares between the old and new software.

Re:academic software???

[wallykeyster]

Yes, but what are those tools going to be when today's school children are in the marketplace. We're talking 10 years or so down the road, minimum.

The answers certainly change when you look at different academic levels. I am a university IT director and tend to think on the shorter term because our students are closer to the real world. However, the study in TFA did talk more about grade school (primary schools) instead of high school or college, so your point is certainly valid.

So, part of the question becomes: how insightful will the school administrators look to the future?

Predicting future marketshare or emerging products is a crap shoot for experts in the business. Do you really think administrators in public education will fare well in being insightful on this issue? Perhaps a better consideration is how they can transition to the next immediate step. What should those in primary schools learn to do better in secondary schools? In theory, this should eventually get to a question of what is used in business today or expected to be used tomorrow.

Re:academic software???

[wallykeyster]

You're also a unique example in a very specific role in a very specific field. To repeat from my OP:

While I agree with your comments, Slashdotters don't seem to realize that most school children aren't going to grow up to be coders or sys admins. In fact, most are not. If you want to be realistic about this, think about billing clerks, secretaries, accountants, and school teachers.

Your individual experience aside, an accounting firm that is tied to Excel will look for people whose portfolio includes Excel experience. This isn't the only item on the list and shouldn't even be near the top, but it is something that is considered.

As an IT manager, I have sacrificed signficant depth for breadth the last few years. This is a requirement of the position. However, as a primarily Microsoft shop with Exchange, AD, and several hundred XP desktops, I must look for certain experience when hiring. If other things are equal, breadth is great, but an experienced Active Directory and Exchange administrator has a leg up on an experienced AIX and sendmail admin.

Computer software changes so rapidly that extensive ingrained experience with any tool is a liability, not an asset. It tends to indicate, more often than not, difficulty and opposition for anything different, no matter how the suitability compares between the old and new software.

That is a problem, but not necessarily related to the issue of depth with any particular technology or tool. Yet, it is true that too much depth without breadth can lead to tunnel vision. Of course, if this person could get really good at one particular thing, they just need the appropriate motivation to transfer this ability. That's where good leadership/management comes in :)

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[cavetroll]

Sure, they are commonplace /now/

We are talking about secondary schools here though, these normally have pupils aged 11-18(ish).

Assume you have a typical office worker, who does their A-levels, takes a gap year, goes to a middling 'university' then sells their soul working in some mindless office job (quite a common situation, at least in the South East of the UK)

These 11-year olds, entering school today, won't enter the work force for about a decade.

10-12 years ago, the Amiga was still alive, windows 3.11 was modern, and the 'new shiney stuff' was things like the Atari falcon. Word Perfect was battling MS Word, and not clearly losing.

Netscape navigator was the major web browser and most people didn't even know what the internet was.

what will be commonplace 10-12 years from now?

Furthermore, that is only at the point they enter the workforce, most school children will not retire until their 50's at the earliest, that is 40 years away.

40 years ago computing would've been unrecognisable to those in the field today.

15 years ago was the era of wordstar, 20 years ago the age of typewriters. Do you think that lessons in typewriter maintainence that they took as teenagers help 30-year olds in the job market today?

if schools are merely training mindless drones for a job now, then slavish adherence to modern de facto 'standards' is an uncertain proposition, but if, as I believe, education should be something that is for life, then such an approach is indefensible.

MS Exchange

[Atryn]

I met with a school district today to discuss Blackberry implementation. They used some POP3 mail server I'd never heard of. So, their choices were:

1. Blackberry Web Client (which is less featured and only solves email)
2. Desktop Redirector (which requires supporting an app on all desktops that now have to be left running all the time)
3. An integrated BES/POP3 Product (which costs roughly 3 times a BES alone)
4. Convert to a supported platform

Now, for a supported platform, they can choose between Domino, Novell or Exchange. Due to the integration and sharing capabilities in the latest MS Office Suite, they are seeking to move to Exchange.

If I had my say, I'd suggest they seriously look at Domino, but that's not my place currently and they seem happy with MS products (if not MS prices).

Re:MS Exchange

[Atryn]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that when a couple of the folks in the meeting looked VERY worried about losing the added functionality of the BES (MDS, Wireless Calendar, Contacts, Tasks, Notes, etc.) the IT guy looked at the superintendent and said "Well, I was TOLD to buy the cheapest mail server available."

Just thought the story might be illuminating from a cost vs. capability discussion.

Re:MS Exchange

[Blakey Rat]

Lotus Notes sucks ass. Keep that abomination far away from your users.

Exchange might suck, but at least the client software (Outlook) doesn't look, and act, like it was written by retarded babboons who have never before seen a computer.

Re:MS Exchange

[Atryn]

Well, my appreciation for Lotus has grown not because of their email client (Notes) but because of the server's (Domino) capabilities and structure. Namely, that you can do a LOT with Domino based databases and they are all inherently web-accessible. This make extension of them to new technologies (including wireless) incredibly easy. This is espescially true in the Blackberry/BES/MDS/Domino environment.

Someone else would have to comment on Groupwise in this area as I have not yet learned much about it.

Re:MS Exchange

[Bert64]

That's also an issue with blackberry being inflexible.. They should make a product which runs ontop of standard protocols (imap, pop3 etc) instead of integrating into propriatory backend systems..
That way you just need to write and support one connector instead of one for each backend..
Aside from that, blackberry shouldn't really be promoting exchange, ms are actively trying to compete against blackberry and will quite happily drive them bankrupt if they can.

Re:MS Exchange

[Atryn]

They should make a product which runs ontop of standard protocols (imap, pop3 etc) instead of integrating into propriatory backend systems..

Ummm... They do integrate into POP3 and IMAP4, and I believe my original post stated such. The issue is if you want to do anything more sophisticated. They have to integrate into backend systems to support these more sophisticated capabilities (including server-based contacts, calendar, tasks and notes as well as intranet server integration).

blackberry shouldn't really be promoting exchange

They don't. They support Exchange, Domino and Groupwise on their BES platform which together account for something like 99% of the commercial email server market. And they support POP3 and IMAP4 for the more limited users out there.

What We'd Need

[ThisIsFred]

In order for this to happen, I'd need the following to happen first:

* All other agencies that communicate with my district would have to settle on a common, open document format, and stay with it. We need to read what the state sends us.

* Our student information systems would have to support something other than Microsoft products. Tell NCS/Pearson to port SASIxp/IGPro/PCXP to something other than Windows. Follet Software did it with their media circulation software. It's far from impossible.

* All other agencies need to hire something other than web developers who took a half-semester ASP programming course.

* Our accounting systems need to be ported to something other than Windows. There are no cost-effective systems that run on Linux (it's not just initial purchase, it's the support availability).

Where I could substitute with Linux, I did. It's not just Internet access and games for kids, either. Many districts are computerized from top to bottom, so the answer to "why do we need computers in schools", is "because it saves labor costs and gets the job done faster." You also might want to consider that many schools don't have full-time IT staff. Most of the available contractors are MS Certified Reset-button Pushers.

Re:What We'd Need

[NullProg]

I don't think they are advocating removing Windows/Office from the Administrators. Allthough saving tax-payers money should always be the goal of any school district. More money = more teachers and better salary for others.

Advocate using Linux/OpenOffice to teach computer fundamentals to the kids. Word Processing, SpreadSheets, Graphics, etc. These activities don't require expensive Microsoft software.

Enjoy,

Maybe where you are

[WillAffleckUW]

but heck, we have entire buildings built with MSFT money - about 1/4 of all the buildings here, and a lot of the departments.

Let's not be too hasty, shall we? Use the educational discount if it makes sense, and use Linux for servers that do a lot of work and at home.

[caveat - I live in Seattle, this might not be true where you are]

Re:MSDN? or educational discount?

[WillAffleckUW]

My teacher for my networking class has subscribed this year to MSDNAA for about $800, and students and teachers can receive all the operating systems, visual studio, other programs I've never even heard of, etc. We've got two full CD slip cases of MS software, and we get sent new CDs each month. We have XP volume license keys, and for software that isn't a volume licensed version there is a database of keys that can be used specifically by students. The only downside is Office isn't included in the package my teacher subscribed to, oh well. There's varying packages which contain more and more software, thus costing more money.

Exactly. If we paid list price, of course we'd switch, but we don't. We pay a lot less - just like when I buy software, as an educational employee I pay about 50 percent what you pay retail. We get Office in our package, though, but we're a University.

Open Failure

[jollyrog]

I had a great time losing 50 pages of my thesis because Open Office crashed this afternoon. I guess thats why you don't use Beta's to write your thesis.

Re:Open Failure

[Anonymous Coward]

So are you blaming your stupidity for turning off autosave or are you blaming your wussy O/S?

Re:Open Failure

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen people lose days worth of work when Word crashed, too. It doesn't change the fact that the person losing the work was a complete freakin' moron for not saving their work! And don't get me started on using floppy disks without backups!

Some really good points

[erroneus]

YES I absolutely agree that computers should be done away with. Until a user can actually appreciate what it does, it's actually a very fundamental facet of education that's being lost where computers are being used in education today.

I'll use a good friend as an example which I don't think should be considered typical but remains as a good illustration. He took a test recently for a job. The test actually had some "long division" problems in it. He had completely forgotten how to do that. He's a sharp guys and is by no means an idiot or 'illiterate.' But the fact is, he probably has had computers doing so much for him that he forgot how to do it himself.

We learn and remember things because of having to do it over and over and over again. As much as I hated it then and continue to hate it now, it's a fundamental part of our training and education. If we use computers too much from the beginning, we will lose a lot of the fundamental and elemental beginning.

Re:Some really good points

[The Cisco Kid]

A related anecdote - I drove to a McDonalds the other day, and was told 'sorry we are closed due to some computer problems'. I asked what a computer had to do with them being able to cook and sell food. The reply 'I'll let you answert that one'. I suggested that apparently none of their employes were competent enough to do basic matehematics (eg adding up the prices of some food, figuring tax, making change, and drove off laughing.

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[bechthros]

*Sigh*... you must not have read the part of my post where I said that Unix, Mac and Windows machines should all be available to students. Thanks for posting without reading the whole thing. I appreciate it.

The costs of using windows is not only the money

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

Think about the cost for the kids education. They are teached to use a system that is designed so you don't have to THINK while using the computer. It's maybe ok for your grandma (It's still ethically wrong to use it since it's proprietary), but, do we want our childs to go to school so they are teached NOT to think?.

Unix is the way to go.

Problem

[whackco]

Is the money lost when the work force finds out that the system created a pile of people that were no good to it.

So education saves millions, but the private sector spends BILLIONS retraining? Yeah, well thought out guys...

MOD UP

[XanC]

Teachers' unions and the politicians who support them are doing more harm to education in this country than anything else.

How to get the keywords in...

[harryman100]

Excel is one of many spreadsheet applications I am capable of using...

Word is one of many word processing applications I am capable of using...

you get the idea

Re:How to get the keywords in...

[Anonymous Coward]

Excel is one of many spreadsheet applications I am capable of using...

Impersonal, my friend, impersonal.

" - Proficient with various spreadsheet applications including Microsoft Excel".

school admin meets OSS tech support

[f0dder]

e7337 linux guru: OMG n000bs RTFM!!!!!1101010101

school admin: Um hello Bill? You want the first born or our soul.

Detailed case study with costings

[mikeb]

For a case study with costings (in fact it was used to illustrate the lead story in the Times Educational Supplement print edition), Orwell High School in Felixstowe is hard to beat. Then again I would say that, wouldn't I, since I was involved in implementing it. Their savings amount to very much more than the modest 20% to 40% mentioned in the TES article. The case study is at
http://cutterproject.co.uk/Casestudies/orwell_cost _benefit.php.
The school has costed its savings at 40,000 pounds (UK) per year - or in the region of US$70,000 I guess.

There is something really pleasing in seeing five classroms of 30 or so kids each sit down and use a Linux desktop as the most natural thing in the world.

IQ points

[bstadil]

I heard that people from Kansas looses IQ points when they go to the bathroom.

Re:IQ points

[Daengbo]

There's nothing like skewering yourself with the sword you meant to aim at someone else...
Use preview next time.

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[cavetroll]

your claimed

the average person working the average job is *gonna* be on Windows.

and

The fact of the matter is that people who are very familiar with Windows and Office - not love it, mind you, but know how to use it with some degree of expertise - have an advantage in the job market over people who don't.

my response is that whilst this may be true now, 10, 20, 30+ years from now it will most likely not be the case.

for that reason schools shouldn't teach software at all, instead of teaching /any/ word proccessing tool available today, they should teach the proper form for adressing a letter, and how they should be set out - this hasn't changed noticably in over 100 years. (although ignorance of the rules seems to be slowly changing this)

Thanks for posting without reading the whole thing. I appreciate it.

Your previous post made no mention of Apple and/or Macs. You do so in another thread, but I wasn't replying to that (and only saw it after trying to figure out wth you were refering to)

Please keep track of which thread you are replying to. I appreciate it.

learning something useful

[buckwally]

at least those who are taught on Microsoft software learn something useful, a marketable skill. In a world where HR departments dont speak (insert obligatory open source plug here), resumes listing skills with Word, Excel, Access, and FrontPage end up before the bosses. It is the old 95% of the market vs. 5% of the market arguement...

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[SunFan]

I'm far from the president of the MS fan club, but anybody who gets any low- to mid-level job anywhere is going to be sitting in front of a Winbox and needs to know how to use it.

Then, there should be a separate vocational elective, like "shop" or "home economics", for computer skills. Microsoft-specific training has no place in any regular classroom.

How MS can fix this, fast!

[rice_burners_suck]

I was just thinking how Microsoft could reduce the complexity of the next version of Windows, Longtooth, due in 2009.

Longtooth will include a tremendous amount of new features implemented in completely new code. Many, but not all, existing features would be reimplemented in VisualBasic.NET just for the heck of it, even if mature versions are already implemented in C or C++. Programmers making the new VisualBasic.NET code would not be allowed to look at the code that already exists, so that new ideas might be better implemented. The features will be chosen by random for reimplementation.

All Microsoft code would assume that any Microsoft code (the OS and any Microsoft applications) is secure. This code will always execute with no checks to make it run faster. All other code will be subject to Longtooth's new security system, dubbed Microsoft Longtooth Security Center 2003. This feature will give users more control over processes that execute in their computers. I will explain some of its features here:

To maximize security, Microsoft Longtooth Security Center 2003 will make certain assumptions about the user. For example, users who use Microsoft products are assumed to know what they are doing. However, users of 3rd party applications not made by Microsoft are always assumed to be complete idiots. Therefore, all user interface events occurring outside of Microsoft applications will trigger a safety mechanism.

For example, each time the user moves the mouse in an area not controlled by a Microsoft application, the user will see crosshairs moving across the screen to indicate where the mouse will be located. When the user stops moving the mouse, an authentication window will appear and state: "The user has requested that the mouse be moved to the location on the screen indicated by the crosshairs. This area of the screen is controlled by untrusted code that may cause damage to your computer, your documents, or your network. Do you wish to allow the mouse to move to this location?" Buttons for "yes", "no", "details", and "help" will be displayed.

Selecting "no" will cause the mouse cursor to remain at its previous location. Selecting "yes" will bring up another window, requesting the user's password to authenticate the movement of the mouse. If the user enters the correct password, the mouse cursor movement will be authenticated to that user and the cursor will be placed at the new location. Selecting "details" will display the X and Y coordinates of the new position, followed by warnings against using untrusted rogue code such as Linux.

For additional protection, clicks, keys pressed on the keyboard, items selected in a menu, or other input events will trigger similar security mechanisms. Since Microsoft code is considered secure, these checks will not occur in windows owned by Microsoft code. Also, the mouse may be used to click on the above buttons and fields during mouse movement authentication. If any such movement of the mouse takes place during the authentication process, the mouse will still be moved to the location indicated by the crosshairs, but a bug in Windows will cause the cursor to immediately "bounce" back to the location where it was last used during authentication. Microsoft will refuse to fix the bug unless Linux is outlawed in all countries, even those countries that have no computers.

Many other authentication checks will be made by Windows. I'll return to this topic in a moment. First, let me mention that Clippy, the talking paperclip, along with other Microsoft characters, will appear during this process to help the user make an informed decision. If the user is totally unsure, Clippy will provide several options to make a random choice. One option is to flip a virtual coin, which will come with cool animations and sounds. For additional fun, the user will even be able to choose from over 100 different contemporary and historical coins. Microsoft is also said to include an optional full-screen animation with cool 3D effects, which can be used

Besides the $$, the kidz would learn more!

[drdanny_orig]

The very act of figuring out how to accomplish some task would be more instructive than using yet another piece of MSware to drag an icon around. I'm being serious, here, so don't ding me for being anti-opensource. I'm in fact very anti-MS, pro LaATIG (Linux and All That is Good).

No

[xintegerx]

Dumping Microsoft will mean poor students in poor districts will not have access to computers with Microsoft Windows and Word, while students in rich districts will have access to both Windows and Linux products. There is nothing wrong with Microsoft's products for educational use (like creating a document and printing it.) The answer is to write a simple federal law that allows educational institutions to take over IP using emminent domain. Kind of like towns can already do with this with somebody's land to build a high school. Kind of like a trademark that is overused (like escalator), becoming a common household word and losing its registration. Or, a patent expiring after X number of years. Why not introduce a law that makes all software free to all educational institutions? Then people could move past the bickering over trying to get Linux popular, and just use Windows. And, this would make Microsoft look like it's actually HELPING society, because new features developed in Office for business and personal users would be available instantly for free to the educational users. This way, real research could be done.

The solution is not to replace Microsoft, which would set us back some time. The solution is to force all software companies to work with society, and force them to give free licenses to universities. In return, the companies would get a tax writeoff. If you think this is ridiculous, this is ALREADY HAPPENING! College students pirate popular programs, and companies write off the lost sales as if they actually truly lost a sale (as if every pirate would have bought their program if it wasn't available for free.)

24% per computer may not sound like much to save..

[Anonymous Coward]

... but when you add up all the computers it comes out to ... to umm lets seee ... carry the 6 ... hmm ... aHA!

24%

People this unfamiliar with numbers should not be permitted to do TCO analysis.

24% per computer!

[Anonymous Coward]

Just imagine a school with something like 300 computers ... That's a 7200% savings!

attn moderators: grandparent comment NOT TROLL

[js7a]

anybody who gets any low- to mid-level job anywhere is going to be sitting in front of a Winbox and needs to know how to use it

Who doesn't have access to a Windows box? The consumer PC market is approaching 75% saturation as we speak, and 90% of those are Windows boxes.

Most of the Windows and office functionality can be learned with a variety of Linux distributions and OpenOffice -- and any of the many intro/"dummies" books that populate the shelves.

Re:attn moderators: grandparent comment NOT TROLL

[bechthros]

"Who doesn't have access to a Windows box?"

Have access to != know how to use. If it did I wouldn't have any work down here at all. What little money I've made in the Sunshine State has been mostly from teaching grandmothers how to not install spyware.

"Most of the Windows and office functionality can be learned with a variety of Linux distributions and OpenOffice -- and any of the many intro/"dummies" books that populate the shelves."

These kids can't be bothered to read friggin cliff's notes for crying out loud. Not to mention the fact that high school egos would never permit them to read anything with "dummies" on it. Their friends might see them.

I've been getting so much flak about this that I went and asked God. Here's what he said:

Windows... is my son. MacOS is my son. *ix/ux is my son. The guy who said there was no room at the inn was my son. Next question.

Re:The costs of using windows is not only the mone

[LurkerXXX]

They are teached to use a system that is designed so you don't have to THINK while using the computer.

Unix is the way to go.

Yeah. It's sure done you a lot of good.

Microsoft sucks.,

[rice_burners_suck]

The report shows an average saving of 24% per computer in schools using Open Source over those using Microsoft systems.

Heh. Tomorrow I'll see one of those ads: "How did all the British school districts lower their TCO? They switched from Linux to Windows." The finer print will say, "British school districts conducted a study to find which had a lower TCO, Windows or Linux. The study found that those districts using Windows achieved an average TCO savings of 24% over using Linux. Blah blah blah." Then Microsoft will get sued, and they'll get a slap on the wrist, and in the meantime, thousands of PHBs will learn that Windows costs less than Linux. The damage will be done.

Microsoft. Where do you want to spend more today?

Things that keep us locked into MS OFFICE

[paperclip2003]

Things that keeps us on MS office:

1) (native aqua that uses mac fonts) OpenOffice for Macintosh and we need an easy way for teachers, students and staff to have one standard suite for both PC and Macintosh (Windows and OSX)

2) SMS (Student Management systems that we seem to be using are locked into MS Office) -- they always link through some sort of Sqlserver foxpro type driver. Most SMS products are this way probably because people write them in Visual Basic. Unfortantly, the ones that fit what educators need fall in this category.

3) Open Office is dog slow on the PC (Windows and Linux). Also it does not run well on the Macintosh.(Extra X11 stuff). the best verion of Open Office for the Mac is still neooffice/j. Open Office 1.9 and 2.0 beta is a lot better in this respet. I am sorry but Open Office is slow.Abiword is fast, but it lacks a presentation and spreadsheet.

4) We need more than word processing otherwise we would could use abiwork or the ilk.

5) People were trained on Microsoft Office or Word Perfect. Retraining is difficult with staff and teachers because we have become such a "Standards" based place which eats up most of their time. Also , training can traditionally cost more than the products and it is not like Teachers are usually technically savvy and many have trouble "learning it" on their own.

6) Most important is that it takes goverment organizations a long time to change; corporations will change faster than we will.

7) Many educational database programs and the like interface only with office (thank those dot coms for that one).

8) There is a version of office for every os that we use: Mac OS 9 and 8 - Mac OS X, and Windows 98, and XP.

I say this all and I am an avid linux user. I think Linux and Open Office is the future because it is a software evolution not a revolution. People will not "switch" to linux -- it will just be there... I don't even think it will "wow" people like longhorn or tiger. It will get them on the internet, do some word processing, and that is what education really needs.It is just going to take time that is all.

Re:watch out for bias

[Anonymous Coward]

But honestly, this is the kind of repellant, rabid blabbering that makes slashdot not worth visiting to the majority of the tech crowd.

I know you are being sarcastic and pointing out the truth, but just removing bias from the story submissions isn't going to solve that problem anytime soon.

Like I have posted before, I laugh whenever someone says they consider slashdot to be an unbiased and trustworthy site.

This is very true...

[EvilStein]

3rd graders learning how to use Powerpoint. Yeah, that's really productive. They're 8 years old and are already being indoctrinated into the Microsoft way of things.

I'm not kidding about this, either. Teh kid (ex girlfriend had a kid from first marriage) came home, I asked "What'd you learn at school today?" and he said "We made cards with Powerpoint."

Money is being spent on Dell hardware and Microsoft software at an alarming rate, but kids are falling behind in test scores. "No Child Left Behind" might actually have funding available if schools would stop buying PCs every 2 years.

Re:The costs of using windows is not only the mone

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

Unix teached me how to code, how to maintain a secure server, how to work faster, how to automate simple and complex tasks through shell. Unix changed the way i think, the way i see problems, and the way it solved them. And more importantly, Unix feeds me and my family.

Yes, it has done a lot of good to me.

Use computers APPROPRIATELY

[davidwr]

Some schools buy computers for the mere sake of having them. They think the mere presence of a computer in front of a student will make him learn faster or better. The reality is computers change the way students work, but not always for the better.

If you are going to have computers in schools - and I think you should - do the following:
1) make sure you have the electrical and networking infrastructure in place ahead of time, or at least concurrent with hardware delivery
2) train the teachers on how to use the computers in the way they and their students are expected to use them. Train them well enough so they can teach the students what they need to know. But wait you say, students will used computers in unexpected ways. Expect that to happen and train accordingly.
3) have an appropriate software infrastructure. This means a suitable operating system, suitable security software, device drivers, etc. Infrastructure is the "under the hood" software, it does not include tools, applications, and educational software.
4) use hardware and software that is appropriate for the task at hand.
5) use the applications you need for the task at hand.

In addition, you need policies and procedures in place to prevent abuse, recover a machine that's been downed due to accidental or deliberate damage, etc.

All of this costs money. If it's not in your budget, the right thing to do is to either scale down sensibly or perhaps scrap the project entirely. Leaving out key components because you didn't have the money is like building the first 99% of a road that connects two points and leaving the last 1% unbuilt - it's not very useful.

I for one would rather have the entire computer budget moved to the student materials budget than have it spent on a system that, because it was poorly implimented, is being way underutilized. On the other hand, if it's properly implimented, computers can improve the breadth, depth, and overall quality of education, particular for research-intensive classes like history and for projects that require non-local collaboration.

Microsoft Donations

[Ogive17]

I'm too lazy to search for the figures, but Bill Gates and M$ donate millions every year towards complete systems for schools. If people stop going with M$, M$ also stops giving away free computers. I didn't RTFA so I'm not sure if this factor was part of the calculation. There are reasons why M$ is still prominent, and one of them is the freebies.

For the "but they need to know.." crowd...

[EvilStein]

I've seen a lot of people saying "Yes, but graduates will need to know Microsoft Word/Excel/etc..."

This may be very true. However, at the younger levels, this is irrelevant. Very likely, *millions* of dollars are wasted buying PCs for elementary & intermediate schools. This is where free software could be useful and could save money.

Want the graduates to know Word, Excel, and Powerpoint? That's fine. Offer them high school computer classes. Offer summer school classes for those that have an extra interest in advanced classes. But for pete's sake, don't blow money on Office for Toddlers. What an absolute waste of money. (Yes, I have witnessed such waste first hand.. 3rd graders don't need brand new Dell boxes, IMHO.)

Re:For the "but they need to know.." crowd...

[The Cisco Kid]

Teaching specific software is moronic. Instead basic skills should be tought (and I dont mean keyboarding), and the general 'concept' of using software, so that graduates actually have some clue, instead of just being drones that have memorized the click-sequences to accomplish specific tasks in specific software.

If it were 3rd graders learning to use OpenOffice

[davidwr]

If the same 3rd graders were using OpenOffice's Presentation program, would you make the same comment?

Personally, I think teaching third graders the rudiments of office productivity programs is a good idea, if that knowledge will help them achieve the non-computer curriculumn goals.

Take PowerPoint and similar software, for example:
If itis used to teach students how to summarize and find the important points for a presentation, then that's good.
If it's used to teach them how to make eye-candy presentations devoid of content, that's bad.

When it comes to making cards, third graders are probably better off using a simpler program that Powerpoint.

Today's grammar lesson

[Anonymous Coward]

...and can even use a computer when those interfaces fail.

Well, I could even use a flashlight when those interfaces fail.

Hint: "even" should modify "when", not "use". You should have written: "..and can use a computer even when those interfaces fail."

Re:Today's grammar lesson

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not really a "lesson," per se. You just provided a correction, not a lesson about why such a correction should be made.

depends on the terms of the donation

[davidwr]

When it comes to donation, terms are everything.

Without seeing the contract, it's impossible to know. If the donation contract wasn't written anticipating a virtual machine environment, I doubt it included language to specifically exclude such use.

Re:The costs of using windows is not only the mone

[LurkerXXX]

Unix teached me how to code

You need to find a UNIX spell checker then. The word you are looking for is 'taught'.

Ditch them and make them beg

[t_allardyce]

How dare Microsoft think they can hold the British government by the balls. The government needs to basically say "Ok, we're going to use Microsoft software for some things and other software for other things, if you don't like this arrangement we are quite happy to use other software for all things and to maybe start sharing these ideas with your other customers."

Money wasted on computers and OS's..

[greywire]

You know what bothers me? Ay my daughters school, when you go into the office, everybody has a shiny eMac (the one that looks like a desklamp). WTF? Why in the world would they pay for a premium, trendy computer like that for general office work? I could see it if they were in the graphic arts department or something.

It really bugs me that they've spent all that money on fancy macs for the office, but in the classroom they have 5 year old PC's and powermacs...

Re:Money wasted on computers and OS's..

[SunFan]

Odds are those iMacs will cost your school several times less in support costs than a Windows PC would. You should actually be thankful that they are _not_ using Windows PCs.

Yes they will use Linux

[WebCowboy]

...You just have to provide the right environment.

(FYI "Penny Wise Pound Foolish" was coined before Tony Blair's great grandparents were even born)

Why would kids line up at Windows machines while the Linux machine next to it is free? Because the people in charge of the PCs at schools are too stupid or to busy to manage a Windows PC properly, and so they are rolled out with default or factory installs. Kids get no end of joy playing mindless games, chatting on MSN, installing talking purple gorillas and comet-tail mouse cursors and so on.

If you took the time to do a PROPER install that wouldn't be an administrative hell of chronic malware infections, as well as locking down stuff to focus students on their work, then Windows wouldn't be any more appealing than Linux.

You might want to make sure both blatforms are on a level playing field too, by selecting or crafting a well executed distro of Linux and installing it on the same hardware as Windows. Linux has only gotten it together recently on the desktop although it has always been architecturally superior to Windows, so it won't help the cause by using aged hardware and a distro that is more than 2 years old.

Better yet, why put a strain on your resources by supporting a heterogenous environment? Dump everything else and go ALL Linux then there will be no difference from workstation to workstation. There is almost nothing a school needs that isn't handled by Linux, and if enforcing a sigle platform choice is good enough for MS and Apple, then why not Red Hat or Novell?

I (Heart) Presentation Software...

[MsGeek]

I volunteer my time for a group called Koreh LA, which works with pre-literate children. I do a lot of reading to them and reading with them, because most of the children I work with did not get that kind of interaction at home. Moms and dads who don't read to their kids don't wind up with literate kids. It's that simple.

However, one of the ways to encourage reading is reading material created by the children themselves for each other. There is nothing that is more of an ego-boost than to point at a book and say "Hey! I wrote that."

Children who are literacy learners (and adults who are literacy learners, for that matter) usually use picture books in the early phases of learning to read. Big print, lots of pictures. What produces output like that, either to screen or to page? You got it...Presentation Software. It could be PowerPoint, it could be OpenOffice.Org Impress, it could be KOffice's Presenter, it could be AppleWorks' Presentation module, it could be Keynote. Doesn't matter which. All of them have an option to print slides as full pages.

Of course, this takes patience on the part of the mentor, and a willingness to "play secretary" for your mentees. If you can type fast, type what the kids have to say right into the presentation software. If you can't, bring a tape recorder and then transcribe what the kids say.

Then the fun begins. Bring in disks full of clipart and have the kids add the art to the page. Or scan drawings directly in with a scanner. Kids love this part of the process. Print them out, page by page, laminate the front and back cover, staple together or tape together accordion style and there you go. Your kid's an author.

This is what teachers call giving kids "Language Experiences." It's powerful, and an antidote to the Phonics, Phonics, Phonics kids get shoved down their throats now.

Don't take my word for it. Here's a paper on exactly what I'm talking about. Hope this helps...

Students need Microsoft exposure

[NextGaurd]

The business world runs on Microsoft so the kids need to learn it. I'm all for open source but high school is the place to prepare kids for the world today. The bright ones can always learn Linux too.

Re:Students need Microsoft exposure

[The Cisco Kid]

The 'business world' needs to be weaned away from Microsoft. The more non-MS-brainwashed students there are coming from the schools, the more chance there is of that happening.

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[bechthros]

"my response is that whilst this may be true now, 10, 20, 30+ years from now it will most likely not be the case."

Which is exactly why student should learn Windows, *ix/ux, and MacOS.

"for that reason schools shouldn't teach software at all, instead of teaching /any/ word proccessing tool available today, they should teach the proper form for adressing a letter"

They already do, at least at the public high school I attended. And it's a good thing.

But knowing how to write a letter won't teach you how to write one on a computer, just like knowing how to operate a word processor won't teach you how to write a letter. Schools should teach various OS's and applications, none to the exclusion of others.

"You do so in another thread"

We have different definitions of "thread" then. What you appear to consider a thread I apparently consider a first-tier subthread. But, having read it, hopefully you have a better picture of my position on the matter.

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[kabz]

15 years ago was the era of wordstar, 20 years ago the age of typewriters. Do you think that lessons in typewriter maintainence that they took as teenagers help 30-year olds in the job market today?

wtf ?!?!?!? 20 years ago, when I was in school, the secretaries had IBM Selectrics, but the office skills class had WANG word processors/office systems, and the computer classroom had Apple IIe's, and a Cromenco Z80 S100 box.

I think the age of typewriter repair was *30* years ag o ;-)).

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[bechthros]

"Microsoft-specific training"

MS apps and systems should be taught. MacOS apps and systems should be taught. *ix/ux apps and systems should be taught. Clearer now? Did none of you people read this?

Good idea but.....

[adachan]

How much will it cost to train educators to use Linux?

The real news will be coming out next Friday.

[Alkarismi]

This is merely the tip of the iceberg.

Becta will be publishing their report next Friday.
Those of us who have seen it, will vouch for the fact that the TES article conveys the essential facts, but the full report will signal the start of some wholesale moves to F/L/OSS in the UK Educational sector.

The story was leaked in the first place, despite the purdah due to the UK General Election, by eGov Monitor (http://www.egovmonitor.com/node/695) and rapidly followed up by ZDNet (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,3902 0390,39196487,00.htm)

ZDNet's article hints at the fact that BECTA will be working with 'Open Source' representatives in the UK to promote the uptake of F/L/OSS in the UK Education market. eGov Monitor get a little closer to the truth here (http://www.egovmonitor.com/node/818)

All will be revealed next week.

This is the next in a whole series of events that is bringing F/L/OSS to the UK Public Sector. More on the way...

Not fully implemented

[zbyte64]

Yes computers are fully utilized... but there are many reasons why. I think the problem lies in not having a flexible system that is really useful. At the high school i volunteer at, students are allowed to store files on one big share - that is only mac accessible. Ironic isn't it? Now idealy it would be nice if every student had like a slot of storage accessible via computers & internet. Now as far as teachers not knowing how to use the computers... Teachers are often forced to go to intro classes to learn how to use such and such software. The problem is, the software is crap, i will elaborate, and teachers who already know the software are forced to go. An example of crap software is the new attendance and email system set up. The server crash continuesly and sometimes your password works, sometimes it doesn't. Really the problem lies in poorly implented solutions

TWO WORDS:

[Anonymous Coward]

Home School.

Re:The costs of using windows is not only the mone

[Pinefresh]

Now why is it ethically wrong? You run linux on computers made by big corporations ;)

E-mailing...

[DyslexicLegume]

I just e-mailed this to my district's tech office.

Maybe now they'll learn a thing or two.

At the least, they'll get Firefox (or the older Mozilla Suite (for the Mac OS 9s (since I don't think Firefox runs on those))) on the school computers.

Then I shall be happy.

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[cavetroll]

Not so much in England (which is where the article refers to), certainly my mother was using a typewriter back in 1985 (up until she quit in 1987 in fact)

Re:The costs of using windows is not only the mone

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

Mabe you need to find a windows maps software, so you can see that there is a world outside the USA and that not everyone is a native english talker.

Re:The costs of using windows is not only the mone

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

1 - I Run the GNU Operating System. Linux is just my kernel.
2 - I'm not saying that it's unethical to use things created by big corporations (That would be actually a critic to the whole capitalist system, and yes, i actually think that the capitalism system is in itself corrupt and unethical, but we live under it, and it's a whole different topic to the one we are dealing with right now). What i'm saying is that it's unethical to use products that makes use of copyright law and other laws designed to take your freedom as a user, as a scientist, and as a human being awawy, because by doing so you are helping them to continue doing it.

I Wouldn't mind using a good system, like, for example, Solaris, if sun would provide it under conditions that woudln't affect my personal freedoms or the freedom of someone else.

Right now, the only system that fullfils my ethical and technical specs is GNU.

spyware

[Farmbubba]

1. Can you avoid websites that contain spyware/malware?
2. Can you remove that spyware after you mispelled gogle?
3. Can you re-install windows before your next term paper is due!

They would just piss the money away ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... on other stuff not related to REAL learning.

Yeah, they'll save quite a bit actually...

[Tape_Werm]

because reusing all those 386/486's will be quite cost effective!!

Really, linux sucks.

Thanks.

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[bersl2]

Oh, wow, and you don't sound fatalist at all...

If you can't teach someone to use a limited set of apps on a Linux setup, then what make you think you can teach them to use a limited set of apps on a Windows setup. I mean, we're not asking them to admin the damn box or anything.

Yes, Windows will likely remain the predominant platform. But don't try to act like Linux isn't a growing force on the desktop.

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[bechthros]

I'm done repeating myself - see here, or here, or here. I've been more than clear that all three are valid and relevant platforms and all three should be taught.

Re:computers hurting education

[saskboy]

There was a study out of Europe, I think Germany, last month that concluded that having multiple computers in the home led to lower testing grades at school.

The previous studies in North America of course have concluded that computers give people a competitive advantage over their computerless peers, but that trend I don't believe. I work in the computer industry so to speak, and in a type of educational field, and I may be nuts to say this, but we need fewer computers in the schools, or homes if teachers and parents aren't going to supervise the computer use.
If you watch a 10 year old use the Internet these days for instance, if they are unsupervised, they will be on MSN or AIM talking with some people they don't even know, and visiting games and marketing websites, or playing games that teach nothing, not even pseudo-educational games like Oregon Trail are played. Having unrestricted computer access as a child is harmful to education, as are things like TV and video games. The only time a computer is going to help, is when it is one of many tools in the parent's strategy for educating their children in the home. A kid can't be plunked in front a computer with no educational goal in mind, for an undefined period of time.

The majority of callers to the radio station that reported the German study, concurred that a computer is no good unless access is restricted, in the way that video game time should be.

That was fine before I became handicapped

[crovira]

But now, it would make it impossible for me to do anything, including completing my Bachelor's Degree.

I'd ask you to read the ADA but you'd probably wouldn't get it either.

[RANT]
Like the slobs and other ignorant wastrels who sit there and just look at me for twenty minutes as I stand there rocking on my feet hanging to a pole and having to hold onto my cane in my other hand.

You'd think they'd give me a seat. Think again.
[RANT OFF]

One word:

[mrchaotica]

HyperCard

Not only can it do everything the programs you mentioned can, it can also teach programming (since you can embed buttons and stuff into the stacks) and graphs (the "hyper"[links] part).

It's kind of funny: the Macs I had in Elementary school were much better learning tools than the PCs I had in high school. Between HyperCard, Dino Park, LOGO, and ClarisWorks those computers were great.

Re:This Study is Biased and Flawed

[The MESMERIC]

1) Who is going to code their applications? Schools will have to hire hoards of developers to write custom code. Nearly all IT shops are against this, in favor of COTS.

Do they have that much money to waste? Fact is, Rapid Application Development in Linux is no big monster. You can always develop in RealBasic and compile the executable to run on Linux, that if learning curve is a problem.
Otherwise they can develop in Java: Look at Skype, Limewire, Azareus, Digichat.
Java is cross-platform you know?
Simpler languages like Tk/TCL are also cross-platform and easy to program in.
Fact is VB programmers are used to recycling ActiveX components which are very unstable, bulky and guess what support is now obsolete. Windows 2000 very soon will also lose support

2) Who are they going to call for tech support? How much does that cost?
Forums, Google, Articles, Books. People are badly accustomed with bad support that charges enormous rate; when it is known that people that work for them don't have a clue but follow from an answer manual. I know this girl that is clueless about computer and works for an IT Support Centre answering the phone.
Plus Linux hardly need as much support as Windows. It doesn't decay and corrupt so easily, it doesn't get so readily infected by nasties.

3) Who sets the standards for interoperabily?
I hope you don't think it should be Microsoft.
Interoperability is not a challenge for Linux, many internet cafes with solely Window clients run Linux on the background. Many corporates have their mail server sitting on Linux.
Can't comment on Mac though, never used it.
But can assure you - that with many more OSS education-related arising, Linux is by miles a cheaper better and saner idea.

The good thing about Microsoft is that you can always blame them if something goes wrong - so that can be handy for school admins.

And u could also save millions...

[Anonymous Coward]

by ditching education itself ;-) With oil prices raging it seems better to go to stone age. eh!

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[FidelCatsro]

I personly never use windows unless im made to ;). Still though for my job i have to know how the system works for interoperability with servers , So yes you do need to know how to use it for most jobs right , It will change and hopefully sooner rather than later.

Yes if your a geek chances are right now you will have to have some Windows experiance to get by , Same with office workers etc . school IT education is not about pushing ideals (leave that for Uni or home study) its about teaching you what you need to know to get on in life so yes we must teach a good mix of all systems and that includes windows.

Here's another way of looking at it...

[Regnard]

Computer Science programs could save money by using Java instead of promoting Microsoft. How? Aside from the obvious licensing differences to software, there are are several projects out there that try to help schools and students by giving them free means for their betterment.

my experience...

[Anonymous Coward]

I was working doing tech support for some schools last year in Spain. Every school in Spain (south spain at least) is getting a distribution called Guadalinex, which is based on Debian.

Now, our task was to migrate 20+ pcs from windows to Linux in each school... ok.. everything runs fine.. Wifi access.. printing..

now.. a few days later we get calls from the teachers !!! asking if we can put the "normal" system back.

the thing is these teachers I encountered didnt care at all about what the whole Opensource thing was, they didnt explain to the kids.. and they complained..

all I said was.. if the Administration has sent this to every school, it must be good. They understood then.

im not sure if schools will save a lot of money because I know lot of schools that dont pay for their windows licenses anyways.. :D

Re:wow. More money per instructor!?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about more money to be dispersed for more instructors and support staff.

I wish we could have it that way but the way money is organized a certain percentage of funds are dedicated to materials/services. Which means unmaintained equipment. Actually we dump loads in contractor work because that is a service. No contractor earns less than $50 per hr. Dell is a big money maker because it cost %20 to insure their equip with no questions asked warrantee, which we do. Over the last 3 years and 120 Dells we have had Dell repair their hardware about 9 times. The building contractors earn an even greater deal We paid $1M for a giant foundation for a gym. Classified positions pay no more that $24 per hour. Teachers earn Salary 3500 to 5000 and money can be appended to this for special credentials. Here's what I have to say for the teachers, they earn enough here in CA but there needs to be more teachers, counselors and support staff. Or at least in my district.

I currently work at a Jr. High for very little as a lab assistant(officially) or (unofficially) as the Site Technical Lead and District Technology Representative of my Site. This is my last year there I hope they find more qualified people and pay them reasonably. Or they can trust bad contractors and salesmen to savagely tear apart their budget.

just wait...

[Hosiah]

...until more third-generation Linux hackers make their mark. I have often noted with amazement the opportunity that OSS advocates are missing, by not making more grade-school-oriented educational software. In our home, we run Linux on every PC, I code special games and activities just for the kids (they're the easiest and most fun programs to write, after all!), the kids have open access to Linux, and my 8-year-old daughter now routinely opens a Python interpretter to "play" in. Sh-h-h! Don't anybody tell her she's "learning to program" instead of "playing"! At school, she expresses disdain for other platforms. Mind you, we have Windows available in the home, too. And let's not forget special-needs software for handicapped kids, as well! You think Microsoft will give a damn about *them*?

Re:just wait...

[The Cisco Kid]

I have a 4 year old soon who isnt quite ready to have open access to a PC yet, but will eventually, and I would definately be interested in any games/entertainment programs you may have written, if you were willing to share (or if you've already released them somewhere)...

Re:just wait...

[Hosiah]

ah, I wish it were so! But I'm still learning, myself, having discovered Linux and gotten into serious programming only a few years ago. At my blog http://hackersnest.modblog.com/ (also linkable from the blog in my sig), I post code in a few languages, intended to give others at my approximate learning level an example of how to do certain tricks, and also so I can track my own progress. In the "hobbies" section of the blogspot blog, I also occasionally share some howto on hardware topics, game guides, etc. But that's the extent of my contributions so far. While some of the code at hackersnest can have educational functions (word-guessing games and such) I have nothing aimed at the very young. Over time, I hope to get good enough that my graphics-intensive games/activities are fit to post on sourceforge. In the meantime, scour sourceforge.net, where other, more experienced hands may be found! My little rant was intended to throw fertilizer on the grass-roots movement, so to speak, to get more Linux desktops in more schools, because I think it would be a Very Good Thing! If only open-source was around back when I was in grade school, my mucking around in the computer lab would have had more stimulating results...children of my generation grew up more prone to think of computers as toys made by corporations, impenetrable and impervious, useful for playing games on and writing emails and nothing else. The next generation has to have the view that computers belong to *them*, theirs to program, build, and take on the world with, if our civilization hopes to progress into the next stage of science. The present state, where the public mindset is still suffering from the delusion that computers are the exclusive domain of a few millionaires, and that they only can run the handfull of limited applications those millionaires approve, is counter-productive to an educational goal.

no shit sherlock

[hector_uk]

my school uses windows XP RM POS pc's, the whole system is so slow that the admin cannot run antivirus without takeing down the network for 12 hours and thus he wont let us check our email or download anything, thankfully i have been takeing my ibook into school for the last 3 years dual booting gentoo and OS X. all they use the computers for is word excel flash games and running smart boards (projector + giant track pad) which work on windows mac OS X and linux/BSD so there is no excuse, the amount which the school pays microsoft is obscene, the school dose have a few linux boxes which on cisco students (aka me) are allowed to use and they could do anything and more than the wintels could do on 600MHz celerys, and if a teacher wants to run some new software they dont have to first pay for it second get permission from the system admin, third wait three weeks for it to be deployed on the school network, heck the admin runs linux at home, just the idiot head teachers and his bosses lock the school into accepting the microsoft crap. (end of rant)

The software most likely in the workplace

[Anonymous Coward]

9 times out of ten

a:a terminal emulation for a console based frontend for some major corporate app

b:a vb app that provides the frontend functionality for some major corporate app

either a or b, or a and b....

the "ms office" is largely secondary in terms of actual "work"

Re:This Study is Biased and Flawed

[hector_uk]

"Can't comment on Mac though, never used it." the mac (OS X) is freeBSD with some clever hacks a super slick gui compiled and optimised for the ppc, for a school transitioning from Microsoft to open source the mac is a nice compromise, it'll run 90% of open source apps (fink is a nice program that recompiles software that dose not provide a ppc version) and if the school really cannot live without office there is a mac version of it.

EDU Overspending will take years to combat

[mgpeter]

I myself work part-time at a private High School where we have a limited budget and yes we deploy Suse Linux Servers.

However, I also attend LAN Manager meetings at the local Educational Service Unit (Public Tax Paid Schools) and have found their spending habbits outrageous. For instance, one school has mostly Mac OSX workstations with 2 classrooms of WinXP machines. In order to control the users using the XP machines they deploy a Windows 2003 server, fair enough. However, because Microsoft 2003 Server will not autenticate to a Mac OS X server, they went ahead and had all of their OSX Servers authenticate to the single 2003 server!?!

Not only is this a stupid implementation, but to control their 50 or so XP machines, they had to purchase an additional 900 Client Access Licenses to be able to use the 2003 server for OS X Authentication. (at least $10,000 of public funds thrown in the garbage for a subpar solution).

This is AFTER I explained how to setup an OS X, Linux or any other server that would run Samba to do the authentication to the OSX servers. Furthermore I explained that you could do pretty much the same "Lock Down" features (that available with Active Directory) with Microsoft's System Policy Editor, and I would have given them updated ADM Templates for the task. Also, I explained that they could also implement AD Policies locally if they didn't change them often.

Their are other instances where public money is being thrown away, such as area schools buying Symantec Ghost licenses for each machine even after I showed how they could do the exact same thing with a KNOPPIX boot CD and using partimage.

EDU overspending will not go away until the people in charge of the LANs will stop buying products to solve a problem and start figuring things out on their own. Like the saying goes - You can lead a horse to water......

Useful computers vs. edutainment

[geekmule]

Most schools waste their money (and even worse, learning time) on edutainment software like Oregon Trail, etc. etc. Sure that stuff can be fun--but is it academically worth the time and money? Or they just turn on a windows pc or mac and let the kids browse and paint to their hearts content--more waste of time. Most computer time is just wasted goofing around. Here's the way we just set it up at a 6-12 grade charter school in LA: K12LTSP running on a central server and 28 terminals. For the terminals we used old donated PIIs and a few PIIIs--so those were free. We bought a new barebones dual P4 server and then built it out ourselves. What apps does it run? OpenOffice and Firefox. Do you really need anything else for most students? And Firefox runs behind a Censornet(Squid and Dan's Guardian) proxy server, also an old donated PIII, that utilized not a blacklist, but a whitelist, so students can only go to sites pre-approved by staff. When they're on the web, they're usually supervised by a staff member anyway. Using LTSP also keeps me happy as the admin because I only have one machine to keep up--the server!

You are confused about GNU v Linux

[Paridel]

1 - I Run the GNU Operating System. Linux is just my kernel.

How much of what you run is actually released as a GNU product?

The list of software projects actually managed by the free software foundation is pretty small, smaller than the projects managed by other individuals who would rather have it called Linux.

So are you trying to say that it is more important to name the software you use based in idiology than on the desires of the individuals who wrote it? Or do you just not understand the percentage of contribution from various factions?

-paridel

Re:You are confused about GNU v Linux

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

The Original idea was the GNU Project, to create the GNU Operating System. The GPL was created and many people then started writing software that worked with the GNU OS, so i'm using the GNU OS, with many contributions that were made to it.

Besides, if you took everything that is not GNU and put it together, you don't get an OS. OTH if you took everything that IS GNU, you can have a complete Operating System, with compilers, a libc, a shell, etc, etc, etc.

So, yes, GNU is the OS, and we use many software that was designed to work with GNU.

*Holds up a huge "DUH" sign*

[Anonymous Coward]

Try telling a school this, they'll scoff at you and talk about how great microsoft is, and how generous they are and how they take you out to have nice lunches, no joke.

If the administration can be bought off easily with just food, then there's something wrong with the administration, but we already knew that, after all, most school systems squander 90% of the money just to the district office itself.

Re:This Study is Biased and Flawed

[The MESMERIC]

if the school can afford new hardware ie ppc's then sure it seems like a good idea.
I heard openoffice doesn't run so well on Mac, and that is a real shame. But noone needs to be bound to MS Office, so many alternatives do the job better, kids can do without the clutter.
*Nix Operating systems are more condusive to better learning.

+1 Insightful, but...

[leonbrooks]

...definitely not trivial to implement usefully.

They already have

[leonbrooks]

What you're seeing in Kansas is two competing beliefs or faiths, Atheism and Christianity. That's the heart of the matter.

Atheism must be founded on something like evolution is it is to be taken seriously (hence Richard Dawkins' famous comment on the matter). Christianity (and in principle also Judiasm and Islam) must be founded on creation if the core deity is to have any authority. Anything else is temporary and will sooner or later devolve to one alternative or the other.

Atheism is so entrenched in science (in its "Materialism" persona) that postulating any alternative causes swift excommunication for heresy, just ask (for example, there are many others) Richard Sternberg about that one.

To blindly replace Atheistic assumptions with Christian assumptions would be exactly as wrong, but that's not what's being asked for. Nor are they, if you read the wording carefully, asking to teach alternatives to Neodarwinism. They are asking to be able to teach that alternatives exist.

Of course, for the moment at least, the publicity being fanned by the controversy is doing just that anyway.

Hopefully, the end result is that the Materialistic blinkers will be at least loosened so that science can get on with its job of investigating observations - all observations, not just the ones that happen to be politically correct today. Otherwise, just like a blocked-up kettle, the end result will be a destructive overshoot.

Yooo wurrrr lucky!

[leonbrooks]

I cut my teeth on a Wang 2200B. Load from cassette, text-mode only, no attributes, nobbled Wang BASIC the only language available. Lucky to get keyboard time, too, they wanted us to all use MiniWaft cards.

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[akadruid]

I've said this on slashdot and elsewhere many times before but there's always a new example.

Our schools should be teaching our children to use operating sytems, word processors, spreadshees and databases NOT Windows, Word, Excel and Access.

Do they teach them to use Bics, Black & Deckers, or Dells? No, they teach writing, woodwork, and computers.

These kids need to learn essential skills not essential marketing.

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[bechthros]

Your analogy is specious. In addition, you obviously haven't bothered to read the rest of the thread where I've addressed this repeatedly. So here we go again.

Firstly, computer fundamentals are taught and are usually a prerequisite for taking any more in-depth or application-specific course at the high school level. And it's a good thing that they are taught. For you to intimate that they are not is patently false.

Secondly, to liken the teaching of different OS's to Bics vs RollerMates or to Black and Decker vs Kenmore is to deny that computers are many orders of magnitude more complex than ball-point pens or power tools, both of which have at most three or four controls. This is also patently false, and happens to be very disrespectful of and dismissive toward computer users and their skills.

Schools teach manual and automatic transmissions in driver's ed. The reason for this is that they operate differently, and you may someday find yourself in a situation where you are required to operate either one. Schools should also teach Windows, MacOS and *ix/ux for the same reason - they operate differently, and you never know when you're going to need to know how to use one.

"These kids need to learn essential skills not essential marketing."

Which is exactly why I think they should be taught how to use whatever they might have to use in the working world, both in specific and in abstract. As it stands today, all they're learning is MS - I'm advocating opening the schools up to teach MS, Mac, and *ix/us (and possibly Palm). You appear to be in favor of a continued MS monoculture.

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[akadruid]

Don't take this as a flame - I have read your other posts and I think we have the similar opinions.

I totally agree with you that schools _should_ teach Windows, MacOS and Unix-like systems, as well as computing basics, document creation basics, and so on.

I don't agree that this _is_ done. It may be done in your school; your area; even your country. It is not done in the UK, except in rare situations. Students are specifically taught the use of Microsoft products to the exclusion of anything else - they graduate from high school believing there are no alternatives. Computing fundamentals consist of 'This is the magic box that comes with Windows and Office on. Where do you want to go today?'

I know this by working and socialising with people across the spectrum, teachers, it support staff, high level administrators, even students.

Perhaps a more accurate comparison would be if the RAF turned out pilots who believe all aircraft are made by one manufacturer.

One Word:

[npsimons]

Duh.

People, come on

[Anonymous Coward]

I think people on Slashdot usually need a strong dose of reality. Look, the article's point was supposed to be how you could save money by switching away from MS products and using scaled down computers that run other software. While I understand the thought, I find it misguided.

Schools are not full of IT geeks like those of us that read Slashdot. They are full of people that just want to use computers to do OTHER things beyond programming and computer-related activities. Teachers and students want to use exactly the types of programs that are put out by Microsoft - simple, standard, and relatively reliable. You may not like MS, but they developed WORD because people wanted a word processor - people didn't want a word processor because MS told them to want one.

While it is true that other products exist that can perform similar tasks to MS products, those other products do not exist in any appreciable number in the entire rest of the world. At home, at work, and at college these kids and, just as importantly, these teachers use MS products. That's a fact, and if you want to wage war against MS market share do so without forcing our already burdened education system with obscure software. The change has to happen organically with people wanting, finding, and using a better product - not just a different one.

In the end, I highly doubt any money could be saved. By the time you invest the amount of time and money to move AWAY from established MS products and to train teachers and students on the different software, little would be gained. Furthermore, whereas MS is an established company with ongoing products, each school that decides to go with no-name products risks having no support and no updates next year.

Finally, I urge you all to really poke your head out of your cubicals and look around before getting too excited about these stories. NOBODY outside the IT field is interested in downloading and installing obscure software at home and at eveyone else's house just to open up a paper or presentation they wrote for school. These people want to move on with their life, and frankly they don't care much whether they are working with MS products or freeware. They just want the document to open and remain just the way it was on the last computer. That's part of the power of MS - it is everywhere, and frankly normal users like that. If you don't believe me, as people that are old enough to remember what it was like to have nothing compatible.