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Linux vs. Windows for Schools?
Fiachra06 writes "I am involved in helping to maintain the computer systems in the local school (200 ~ 250 pupils) in my home village. The children range in age from 4 to 12. The 14 PC's are running either Windows 95, Windows 98, and XP Home Edition and I find this rather abhorrent. The licensing fees to upgrade all the capable machines to XP pro is unreasonable for such a small school. What would the esteemed Slashdot readers think of shifting all these machines to a Linux distro (probably Ubuntu). I have no doubt the children will have no problem adapting to the new OS (although the teachers might), the main concerns are the availability of educational software for them to use, and practicality of maintenance for people who are new to the OS given that I am not there regularly enough to be a full time sys admin. Preferably I wouldn't like to running too much through Wine but it is still an option."
Abhorrent? Please. Licensing costs for 14 copies of XP Pro Academic Upgrade would run just under a grand. If the machines are running 95 and 98, I'd bet more then a few are old enough that they probably shouldn't be running XP so the actual cost likely is less. Yes it's a significant chunk of change, but not crippling expensive. Obviously running 95, 98, and XP Home may not be the best solution overall, but it apparently seems to work for the time being.
What you are proposing is installing an operating system that is completely foreign to them. The software that they already own has been untested on it. It may or may not work. The availability of future software titles that run natively is also limited. Neither the kids nor the teachers have any experience with it. And to top it off, you even point out that you can't really support it like you should. Sounds like a great plan!
This sounds like a good Idea, but in order to run the Windows programs you may need to use Wine. Try it on a trial basis with a few of the 95 or 98 computers and see how it works out.
sudo mod me up
One of the derivative products of ubuntu, edubuntu, is geared toward people just like you. Check it out!
Linux is *not* user friendly, and until it is linux will stay with >1% marketshare.
/tmp or the installer will dump core. After the installer is done, edit /etc/X11/XF86Config and add a section called "GL" and put "driver nv" in it. Make sure you have the latest version of X and Linux kernel 2.6 or else X will segfault when you start. OK, run the Quake 3 installer and make sure you set the proper group and setuid permissions on quake3.bin. If you want sound, look here [link to another obscure web site], which is a short HOWTO on how to get sound in Quake 3. That's all there is to it!"
Take installation. Linux zealots are now saying "oh installing is so easy, just do apt-get install package or emerge package": Yes, because typing in "apt-get" or "emerge" makes so much more sense to new users than double-clicking an icon that says "setup".
Linux zealots are far too forgiving when judging the difficultly of Linux configuration issues and far too harsh when judging the difficulty of Windows configuration issues. Example comments:
User: "How do I get Quake 3 to run in Linux?"
Zealot: "Oh that's easy! If you have Redhat, you have to download quake_3_rh_8_i686_010203_glibc.bin, then do chmod +x on the file. Then you have to su to root, make sure you type export LD_ASSUME_KERNEL=2.2.5 but ONLY if you have that latest libc6 installed. If you don't, don't set that environment variable or the installer will dump core. Before you run the installer, make sure you have the GL drivers for X installed. Get them at [some obscure web address], chmod +x the binary, then run it, but make sure you have at least 10MB free in
User: "How do I get Quake 3 to run in Windows?"
Zealot: "Oh God, I had to install Quake 3 in Windoze for some lamer friend of mine! God, what a fucking mess! I put in the CD and it took about 3 minutes to copy everything, and then I had to reboot the fucking computer! Jesus Christ! What a retarded operating system!"
So, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that what seems easy and natural to Linux geeks is definitely not what regular people consider easy and natural. Hence, the preference towards Windows.
Edubuntu?
Is it more educational to buy a packaged education or take a classroom and create a learning environment? The best way to learn is to create the tools of learning rather than memorizing facts or being shown movies or games all day. Tell them they are smart, get them involved and make the system that will teach more generations. Turn them into leaders of the future, not followers of the past generations.
There's no response that is going to really be useful except for "Yeah! Go for it and screw M$FT and their stupid Winders. Fuck them right in the a$$!!!11!111"
Seriously. How can anyone possibly tell you what is the best thing to do when you haven't even given any details about what the computers are used for.
As for using Ubuntu, if you are desperately in need of staying PC and kowtowing to minorities, then go for it. Otherwise, maybe you'd prefer to go with something like RedHat or Mandrake, each with much more support available than community-driven Ubuntu.
2 different needs might lead you in 2 directions for getting things up and running with 'other than windows'.
You're asking a mostly *nix centric community about moving away from Windows?
There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
Edubuntu may be the way to go.
Edubuntu FAQ
Looking at the Edubuntu Tour, some of the programs seem to be for a younger age, around kindergarten and up, but the SchoolTool calendar for teachers looks interesting.
OpenOffice is included (of course). You don't mention what applications the kids may need - if it's just for internet browsing and research, and maybe some of the other educational things already included (Typing, etc), Edubuntu may fit your needs.
The upcoming 6.04 release of Ubuntu's Dapper Drake may fit you better, as it will have a formal support cycle. (I want to say 3 years).
When you says availability of educational software, you mean "none". You should use the OS that can run your software. I'm sure most of the software that you currently own runs on Windows. Why change then? Why upgrade to XP at all? Maybe you need a fresh reinstall on those '95 and '98 boxes. They should run okay.
I'd love to switch to Linux at home too, but everytime time I get to thinking about what software I use everyday, I realize it's just all for Windows. The OS serves one pupose: to run your software.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Ask Slashdot "Windows or Linux" ???
Hmmm. Let me think now!
My university uses a set of machines without hard drives. Every PC on campus (more than 5000 of them) boot off the nic card. When you boot any machine, The OS and all the applications come into the machine from a central server. This way, no PC can catch a virus, have the kerel corrupted, have files erased, etc. Any machine can be returned to perfection with a simple reboot which takes about 30-40 seconds. That would at least address your maintenance problem.
How about upgrading the slower/older machines to Ubuntu, which is less resource-demanding than Windows? At the same time, you can upgrade a few of the better machines to XP Pro so they'll have maintain exposure with the Windows world, and be able to use all of the relevant software for that platform. Best of both worlds.
Listen to what I say, not what I mean...
Look, whatever the ideal solution here might be in technical terms, if you are making decisions for these people on the basis of what you find 'abhorrent', then you should stop.
People are trusting you to make an informed technical choice, and you are presumably presenting yourself as someone who adds value in the form of technical knowledge and ability, right? You can't turn around and lead these people down a path determined by the fact that you have a personal emotional issue with some software. It's professionally irresponsible, bad for the school, and it makes you a weirdo.
In a slightly seperate issue, I wonder how people manage to work themselves up so much that they find a particular brand or product 'abhorrent' rather that just 'unsuitable'.
On second thoughts, I guess I do almost nearly feel that way about the Hummer 2, and ESPECIALLY the Hummer 3. I mean have you _seen_ the awful awful awful embarrassing fake chrome bits on those things? That's abhorrent! Shiny, dumb-looking, unstable, but also abhorrent.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
Looks like a few people already beat me to it, but I would definately try out Edubuntu on one or two of the lower end machines and see how you like it and if it packs the software you're looking for. It's literally designed specifically for your situation. Also, to the first replier: Not every school can afford to waste a grand on XP liscensing.
Disclaimer: I don't like MS or their business practices...
It might be in MS's best interest to grow their Windows users from the ground up by practically giving away their OS to K-12 institutions. I think they're shooting themselves in the foot by extorting money from them.
From a purely practical point of view, because we live in a "Windows World," it would serve the kids best to know their way around it. It would be a disservice to them to make them use Macs or Linux boxes and breed ignorance to the real world.
HOWEVER, it would also be a disservice to these kids to NOT know anything about the other OSs out there. High school is a good place to introduce *nix for basic programming/computer science curriculums.
The bottom line: it's education. Kids should be given the opportunity to learn as much about the computing world as they can by having exposure to all the technology available. Because of its ubiquity, locking out MS would be a mistake (unless the goal is to breed absolute contempt for MS in the next generation which would bring MS down--but that's another thread, I'm sure).
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
If you are thinking about Ubuntu why not consider Edubuntu that is targeted at schools and has quite a few educational programs included? Here's their webpage
My freedom ends where someone else's begins
I currently attend a school in manhattan called Trevor Day school, at which, from 5 grade on you are required to have a laptop to attend. So, every day we have 700 kids running aroud with laptops. Because students are required to buy their laptops themselves (yes, its a private school) they dont not have to worry about most of the copies of windows so we have no trouble with licensing fees, even for the servers and teacher computers that they buy. Because everything is windows based it allows for us to use almost any software that has been created for educational purposes. I just have simply not see that many for linux. I'm not saying it doesnt exist but im just wondering if you will actually be able to find what your looking for. Never the less is that it does take lots of effort on the part of administrators and computer people. Also, we have a dell repair man come once a day to fix things. But it is well worth all of the effort. We also have online homework boards and a portal. The homework board is done with microsoft class server and the portal was custom made by a company for the school.
That being said, we did get 1 pc for games, and a eMac 'cause my daughter insisted on being contrary and demanding photoshop. The mac works out great, the pc was an upgrade disaster trying to get games to run. We finally gave up and got a used X-box to deal with the games -- should have done that from the start.
The point? Kids can deal with linux just fine, it will probably be more stable than early versions of windows, and if web browsing and writing are the major apps, you're fine. If the staff has got a bunch of windows-only applications that they've got to run you may have problems.
Good luck.
-- ac at work
Caveat: I use Ubuntu at home and am fairly conversant with Linux. At school I typically use a FC4 server via VNC.
As for your question--I wouldn't really recommend it. I'm what I'd consider an above average user (or average, for a Linux-head)--I don't eat, sleep, and breathe ls switches, but I know how to get around, deal with most problems that come up, etc. And I still get stuck. The Edubuntu packages aren't all that good, though they're getting better, and if you don't have time to play the sysadmin, who in the hell will?
I'll probably need to pass in my Geek Card for saying this, but come on. You want to switch to software that doesn't really do what they'd want to do and you don't want to put in the effort to follow through. I don't think that makes sense. At all.
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
Seriously?!
Who would ask: "What would the esteemed Slashdot readers think of shifting all these machines to a Linux distro (probably Ubuntu)."?
This Ask Slashdot item just made every Linux geeks day.
Every Linux Geek: "Oh look someone wants me to tell them why they should switch to Linux over Windows.
Now I can tell the world about my faild attempts to implement Windows and how I switched to Linux and became a hero in my own mind!"
OMFG!! I've become a TROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!
I like-a do-the cha-cha.
Bill, is that you?
Swedish plasma phys. PhD student; MSc EE; knows maths, programming, electronics; finance interest; seeks opportunities
Have a look at Skolelinux ("School linux"), a distro specifically tailored to fit a schools needs.
What is it going to cost you to install Linux and give it a chance?
All we are say....ing..... is give Linux a chance..
There's a Linux distribution specialised for schools called SkoleLinux. It's based on a thin client/server system. :)
I would recommend using that instead.
And about ubuntu, and I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but it really sucks. I used it for a month, and it was worse than Mandriva. First of all, you got a butt ugly GNOME user interface. Not that thet theme is ugly, it's fine, but GNOME's devs appearently don't know the meaning of the word "usability". Second, Universe and Multiverse are somewhat big, but not as much as Debian's repositories. And what's missing, you gotta grab from there. It's annoying, as most of it fails to work.
And there's the sudo problem.
Ubuntu chose to use sudo instead of the regular su, which is extremely annoying if you got a lot to do as root. You have to type sudo in front of every app's name to run it as root. Don't choose ubuntu, or you'll get students that destroy computers out of sheer rage.
SkoleLinux can also work as a standard desktop, but I think it works best as thin client.
Another alternative is SimplyMEPIS linux, which is extremely quick and easy to install, and has a KDE user interface as default.
if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Your success in switching will depend on finding applications and users who can cope when you're not around. Start with a few less used machines, dual boot if you have to and see how people cope. Also use these machines to demo software. Keep the demos small until you get a feel for what people will accept.
There are some debian based distro's like skolelinux and edubuntu which appear to be designed for schools.
While I have no doubt that Linux is ready for such a task, I'm not sure your average school teacher is.
Good luck explaining to them that they can't use some fancy piece of educational software they've already bought, or if they can but it will sort-of work and sort-of not work thanks to Wine. IME, few teachers would accept being told this - and regardless of whether or not you should educating youngsters in a specific operating system, you may have a hard time convincing teachers of this.
I know it's not what you asked for, but what I'd do is set up a Linux server to hold everyone's files and act as a domain controller so profiles are centralised. I'd keep Windows on the client systems (though I might try and rationalise it to just one or two versions) and set up disk images on the Linux server from which the clients can be rebuilt very quickly. Finally, I'd put a boot loader on with an option to "Rebuild this computer" which downloads an appropriate image from the fileserver and installs it.
All that being said, if you can get the staff to agree from an early stage, you might be all right. But don't say you weren't warned.
The biggest problem is likely to be stuff that the exam boards assume you are using. I know where my sister works the exam boards assume one of two packages that are windows only. I suspect you'd need to check this one carefully, but that it wouldn't be a show stopper.
Other than that, I've heard of schools in the UK going down the LTSP road and it being excellent. If someone is messing around, you kill their X, move them to the front, and log them back into exactly where they were. Kid kicks a power plug (like they all do) and vapes somebody elses machine and it doesn't matter. It also means all those old machines aren't a problem, and you can actually accept much more donated hardware than you could in the past, as you're actually running your code on meatier machines in the server room.
jh
As a volunteer ESL teacher who has built a school network abroad (South Asia) you really have 2 main choices in Linux:
1) Edubuntu (has some serious limitations for practical use)
2) K-12 Linux (which has less configuration headaches and more what the %#@! moments when configuring the terminals)
I have tried both in vain and decided to go with a straight Fedora Core 4 setup for the school since I wanted the least headaches. The administration agreed and we have had few real problems. That says something when it owuld take me 1 hour Long distance calling to sort something out or a 15.5 hour flight.
FOSS is an excellent choice for cash strapped schools like the rural metric school I work with.
While I'm a big fan of Linux, I'd have to question that it's the *best* solution to the scenario you're describing some considerations
* While you can build a Linux infrastructure which is *nearly* self maintaining, do you have the budget to pay for the expertise to do this? You say you don't have full time sysadmins so one wonders how much you might spend supporting these machines versus Windows machines (at acedemic pricing levels no less) over the long haul if all you did was place *default install* workstations out there for your students.
* Let's face it Windows applications are the *mainstream* apps in Business, do your goals include exposing your young students to these apps (i.e. do you plan to teach them how to use office apps ?).
Perhaps you might consider a mixed infrastructure with Windows boxes and some Linux (or maybe even a Mac or two) to make your teaching environment a bit more diverse? Given that academic pricing for Windows & MS Apps is so low and given that support for them is so easy to find and generally speaking *cheap* it may be worth considering the longer term Total Cost of Ownership, rather than just the upfront CapEx for licensing.
You also may want to talk to the various vendors upfront about what you're trying to do, I know for a fact that Microsoft often offers various incentives (i.e. Freebie support, licenses, even hardware subsidies, etc..) in situations like yours and I suspect some of the Linux vendors might even consider doing the same (as would perhaps Apple)... best of luck.
With Ubuntu they could all take home a copy of what they have at school. Even if it is just a Live-Cd.
And to go back to "probably shouldn't be running XP so the actual cost likely is less". Well with Ubuntu they would probably run as well as they do on Win95. So if you want to account for upgrading add the cost of new computers for the WinXP option. In fact the school may be able to get computers donated by all the people in town who "Have to upgrade" because they went to winXP. Hummmm....the possibilities!
Many schools have migrated to linux in part or in full,
this is not expected to be much of a problem.
You would probably want to keep 1 or 2 XP computers
for the sake of those few tasks/programs which still work
better on Windows.
You may want to install those to as a dual-boot.
Especially if the computers are sometimes all used simultaniously,
you would like the ability to have all the kids use the same software.
In some schools I have seen there was fear from childrens astounding ability
to cripple computers and therefor elected a strategy of either
using dumb terminals or automaticly wiping out the hard drives from an image periodicly.
With such a small set up you may deam these precations excessive, yet be sure to keep
a fully installed image on stand by.(Assuming the hardware of the computers is reasonably
identical).
Me.
These kids may or may not use Linux one day. They will definitely use Windows. As much as I support *nix, this isn't a time for Linvangelism.
Well, my Karma was positive...
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.-TJ
You obviously are a troll, but I will bite anyway:
A windows computer without a properly trained user will be a stinking mess in no time. Ye she may be able to install quake on it, but also all the malware she thinks sounds entertaining.
That is fine at home, but in a school or office environment that will not do. Then it suddenly does not matter that the user cannot install any software by themselves. They may not like that very much, but it keeps their computer running for 5 years or more (provided the hardware does not fail.
About installing software: most non-geek oriented distro's use a graphical shell around the package manager, so you never have to type in those hard commands. with it (and a broadband connection) you can pick and choose thousands of software packages. Do you think there is a near equivalent of that on windows?
This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
Before spending any money the educators need to create a requirements document. How are the computers to be used? What are the educational objectives? Is there any specific software that needs to be run? Are there any compatibility requirements? What level of support is available?
With this document in hand, alternatives from "do nothing" through various upgrade strategies to "all new computers" should be reviewed and evaluated. Anything less would be irresponsible.
Here we have a large existing capital investment (14 computers and software) with no plan for upgrades or replacement. Not a good situation. Don't compound it.
the main concerns are the availability of educational software for them to use
There is no need to be concerned. THIS is the _perfect_ solution for you. Edubuntu. It's Ubuntu loaded with educational software.
I would rather try something like Edubuntu (the educational/school edition of Ubuntu) for upgrading the machines. three reasons: - its for free (thats a very good reason) - its maybe the easiest-to-use Linux OS - it runs on elder Hardware WinXP would never be able to run on, so you don't have to upgrade too much hardware (maybe you don't have to upgrade anything if you're lucky) and don't worry about the change in the OS-environment; it's really simple to use Ubuntu...
You have got to sit down with the teachers and compile a list of what they are using the computers for and then determine if there are open source alternatives and if the teachers are willing to accomodate a wholesale OS change. If the open source versions of the tools they need exist, then they should be open to change based solely on cost savings. As a taxpayer, I want to know that the schools that are devouring my money are spending responsibly. However, as a taxpayer, and someone who who predates computers in the K-8 grades, I have to ask just what the hell are they doing using computers to teach K-5 students????!!!! I suspect that they're teaching dependency on technology, or worse, the teachers are pushing their responsibilities onto computers, dumbing down the teaching staff and hurting the children in the end.
OK I have seen this recommended time and time again. If one is not in a Windows Domain scenario, just what is the extra benefit of XP PRO vs. Home? Dell, Best Buy and others all market to the home user that PRO is better, but never give a reason why, obviously a higher profit margin. Why convert to PRO when Home would suffice and save the $$$$$?
First off, you need evaluate what you're doing with these computers. Are they for the students, or the teachers? What exactly are the people who are using them doing with them? Is the software specific to the OS, or can it be ported? Is there an alternative?
From your description, it sounds like you have a mix of computers, ranging from older to newer. Getting XP to run on the older ones is likely to be an exercise in frustration all by itself.
If the student's are the ones using the computers, why not turn it into an educational opportunity? Use Linux on the older computers, XP on the newer computers. You're already running three OSs, this way you're moving to two, and giving them an opportunity to see what each one does. Most of the "standard" stuff (word processing, spreadsheets, etc.) can be done on either.
This way you have a chance to use your older systems, educate your students, and save money. It also gives you a chance to evaluate both systems. Alternatively, you could also look to see if MS would cough up some reduced cost licenses - or heck, even give it to you free. They've been known to do that. :-D
95% of people use Windows in wider society, including businesses.
I use Linux every day, it pays my wage. But for the 0.01% of people who would use the power Linux features, Windows has Cygwin, Ethereal and all that.
They must learn Windows.
[% slash_sig_val.text %]
After all it's worked for several government agencies, and Microsoft wants kids to grow up using their software, because when they get older that's what they will know and want to use. So call MS tell them you are switching your school to Linux due to licensing fees. Who knows maybe the Gates foundation will donate the Windows license to prevent you from switching.
That being said, I see nothing wrong with a mixed environment or running an educational Linux distro on some of the machines.
far...out
Fork out for the WinXP licences. Argue Linux is what we all should be using all you like, but remember that you are educating regular people, not computing professionals. The world uses Windows. Thats what they should be taught.
This project seems to be going well, and was covered in Linux Journal and on Slashdot.
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6349
I have family that lives up that way and they get some help for there linix stuff from this guy.
Answering the question as you put it isn't really possible.
First, you need to have a good understanding of what these computers need to do. You mention educational software and wine. Does that mean there are specific applications that the computers must run or just that there are just things the computers should be able to do. A requirement that the computers run Oregon Trail 2005 (or whatever) probably means that you must stay with Windows or attempt to run it slowly in wine. But if the requirement is a typing tutor program, an astronomy program and a basic word processor, that's different.
What other things do the computers need to do? Do they have to maintain a print server? Sharing an attached printer is pretty easy with windows, but slightly more complicated with linux. If you are the only tech person and you aren't available when the printer goes down, you might have a problem.
Do they need to acces the internet? How? Direct connection for each box or through a proxy? Will you be replacing the proxy? Are they running any monitoring software to stop the porn? Some of the older kids will definitely be after that and while I'm against censorship in principle, I can certainly understand that you don't need a 13 year old surfing porn in class.
Sure, if you set it up correctly Ubuntu will not be hard for the kids to use and the teachers should be able to learn how to use it. But you need to answer the question, "will it do what I need it to do?"
Ah, you've discovered one of the great joys of the educator -- indoctrinating little minds with your own opinions, whether it is on the true cause of the American Civil War, the proper way to read a poem, or the correct operating system to use.
As long as you understand this, and have the kid's best interest in mind, you won't do to wrong by them.
There is no difference in terms of usability for a child's standpoint. Adults are often a different matter, but if they are for the most part not required to administer anything, they aren't that different from the children, except that they'll be equally awkward on either platform as the children are equally fluent.
With respect to software, there is much more of course on Windows, and on average much better polished. But averages are deceiving, and polish isn't the only criterion. For example for basic office tasks there is no difference at all: you should be using open office on either platform and saving your scarce dollars for better things than any marginal "improvements" that MS Office would bring. Polish isn't everything. My kids use both Windows and Linux for playing games; the games on Linux are often a bit cruder, but they often have a creative component that's missing from their Windows counterparts. I'm less up to date on "educational" software; I'm generally not a big fan of it. I'd rather have the kids experimenting and creating with real world tools than virtual ones.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
What the heck are you talking about. For $8 a student a school can upgrade to Windows XP Pro from win 98, me or home if the machine has enough power. I have clients running XP Pro on 500 MHZ machines with 256 meg of ram.
g _name=TechSoupMain&category_name=Microsoft&Page=1
Cost to upgrade is not a factor. Microsoft has an extensive software donation program for 501c3 organizations. Oh what you say they want a server how about MS Small Business Sever 5 users for $60 or Symantec Antivirus Corp Addition for 10 users at $80.
Here is a link to one of the sites for nonprofit organizations http://www.techsoup.org/stock/Category.asp?catalo
Know your facts...
This is a classic example of keeping the wrong priorities. First you look at what this school uses for software, then you look at what they'll be doing in the future and only then can you decide what OS might suit the job best. Even without knowing all these issues I think you're on the wrong track here. You might even be better off mixing the two. Still, this is just your regular Hackles example.
I'm a K-12 network administrator, so I know where you are coming from in terms of budgetary concerns. However, I encourage you to furthur investigate licensing options before you consider a switch of operating systems. For instance, you can buy a retail box acadmic version of XP Pro with SP2 for less than $70 (Microsoft SKU E85-02670). Other products are also available in academic pricing, like Office 2003.
If you are more forward thinking, you could enter into a School Agreement with Microsoft in which you could acquire volume licensing (greater than 300 units) at an even bigger discount (possibly around $30 per workstation). You could calculate a cost here.
One other thing to note, is that if you can solicit computer donations to your school system, either from parents or community members, you are eligible to free (as in beer) Windows 2000 licensing for such computers. This is called the Microsoft Fresh Start program for K-12.
Also check out K12Computers.com. You can occasionally find some really cheap surplus Dells sold only to K-12.
1)Set up the old machines as thin clients on a network. (eg LTSP). That means you can still use them; you'll have good performance, and the upgrade will be much easier. Then buy one high-end ($2k) server.
2)Keep a windows machine or 2. Run the windows software on it - and connect with VNC. Costs nothing; 100% compatible.
[Wine is quite good these days, but if you already have the MS licenses...]
3)Don't buy any new windows apps - you'll only feed the addiction!
4)Rip the fonts out of your existing installs. The MS corefonts are still the best for legibility.
I can see your desires to simplify your cost and environment, but put the benefit of the kids on the front burner. 'Younglings' with no Windows experience are going to be in serious trouble in a very high percentage of middle schools, high schools, tech schools, and workplaces. College is another story... By that time someone is certainly ready for multiple OS experience. Building that common foundation, as much as M$ haters may not like it, is especially important for those whose career does not necessarily include banging away coding all day, etc. Going Linux only is not much different than kids that learn MAC and no Windows (don't flame, I own lots of Pc's, a Mac, and have played with Linux distros). Its great experience, but they lose out on that 'common experience that most employers and other situations will require as a lowest common denominator-- again, especially if they do not go into any primarily IT related role.
Start with the basics of Windows incase some of them never do move up/move on to another OS. When you go beyond primary or middle school-- that's the time to grow their knowledge and expand the OS experience.
Going Linux in the grade school environment is sort of like having a grade school only taught in Spanish or Swahili or French or Klingon. It may benefit now, but in the long run, everyone will suffer from 'interoperability issues'.
I vote for multiple OS's or Windows only for gradeschool. People I know from gradeschool who never furthered knowledge of computers and do not own a computer only knew how to work on an Apple IIe. No help today...
If they are sitting there doing different things, give them computers with several OS's to experience, but wait... that's what you have today...
You can't afford XP, so the decision is to use Linux.
Decisions don't have to be difficult to be correct.
Blearf. Blearf, I say.
Once you have a shoping list of needs, install your chosen Linux on one or two machines and give them a try. See what does and doesn't fit the bill. Show your colleagues your work. Don't overlook how much help you will get from public forums, especially if you mention that you are a school when you ask for help - there is a huge feel-good factor for people who manage to help out a school.
If you are lucky, you will be able to put together a working pilot that you can roll out, for little or no cost. At worst, you waste some time in discovering there is simething you really need that Linux just can't provide.
Hope this helps.
Finding God in a Dog
Preferably I wouldn't like to running too much through Wine but it is still an option.
maybe you can load up word via wine and check your grammar.
Your sig(k) has been stolen. There is a puff of smoke!
So..there is a concern about educational software available. So...those kids start learning on a *nix platform, known to be a very developer friendly enviroment. So sure, you probably aren't going to have your first generation of kids go through do much, but if they stick with learning on a *nix platform, you are potentially growing your own developers. I remember back in the days before the bloat, HS students were writing educational software for the grade school kids.
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
Take one class, convert one computer to Linux and get the kids to write a web-page about it. Post to your local LUG about the page and project. Sit back and wait for the local MS shill to drop off the Windows software the school would like for free. I know of one case where this happened though the school's intention was not to squeeze software from Microsoft.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Celestia will take you breath away.
other than that
1000's of applications run in the browser.
just install flash and java and google.
A lot of great educational software runs on either DOS or Windows 95/98. An added bonus is that these older programs, such as Reader Rabbit, etc. can be gotten really cheap on ebay or garage sales, etc. You could try installing Ubuntu and using Dosbox and WINE to get some of these programs running.
I think the best plan is to have variety in the machines you expose your students too. Keep some on windows and the others on Linux.
FREE - Java, J2EE and Ajax Audiobooks for Software Developers - www.DeveloperAdvantage.com
http://ltsp.org/
very simple, very straightforward. it's set up to be useable by non-totally-technical administrators, with a looovely simple front-end for setting up DNS, DHCP, adding packages for use on the LTSP-clients (which includes rdesktop).
You can add LTSP to ANY "desktoppy-servery" machine and it will be useable by dozens of simultaneous clients.
So, you pick your distro (deadrat, debian, debian-edu, edubuntu) and then you just follow the LTSP instructions
and voila, its desktop environment is magically available across all the LTSP thin clients.
An AMD64 machine with 1Gb RAM would simultaneously serve 10 students.
A Dual XEON with 4gb of RAM would simultaneously serve 50 students, with a fair chance
that (unless it's a "lab" environment where everybody is told to do the same
things simultaneously) you will be able to push that to 100 students.
With RDesktop as an option.
The crucial thing is that the kids WILL love it - and time and time and time again,
Sirius (who roll out LTSP regularly) find that the kids simply... don't go near
windows: the windows machines sit there unused (until they are converted to LTSP
clients) because the kids don't find windows "to be cool" any more.
14 computers sounds quite fair to handle...however, its up to you how much time you are willing to dedicate into that network or infrastrucure.
As it has been said several times:
1) Check out was is NEEDED, not what YOU (or other) want...make a list.
2) Check this list you made with the teacher...are there alternatives within Ubuntu or Edubuntu (as an example)
3) check the hardware...is it possible to run XP, Ubuntu or whatever might be possible (see 1) and 2)) or do you need to upgrade anyway?
3a) if you need to upgrade, why not taking the licenses that comes with the new stuff (unless you build them yourself)
4) lets suggests, that there are none or minor upgrades to be done: Use a LIVE-CD to check out if hardware is working.
5) Use a Live-CD (eg. ubuntu or edubuntu) to check if the list at 1) is matched and if pupils and teachers are okay using that stuff...if it fails, back to Win98 or whatever is used right now.
I am no fan of Windows, but I am very uneasy if it comes to change from one OS to another in a hurry at an area where I dont have full responsibility...if it fails, linux won't get a second chance there anytime soon and you won't be let near those computers (if that is a drawback or not to you, is another story).
Therefore I suggest you to use Live-CDs to check out how people react on the new OS and applications and if the hardware is able to cope with whatever OS you choose.
Just take your time to reconsider all options and prepare everything well...there is nothing more deadly than to do something like a change of OS-flavour in a hurry.
Good luck
I'm the technology teacher/administrator for a US charter school. We have Mac, Windows and the majority of our workstations are SUSE via terminal services. Workd great! We use open source as a way to talk about service and global awarness. The students resonate with the politics and finances which drive our descision. We recieved a donation of 100 legacy boxes last year, these run terminal services very well.
You really need more heads; fourteen terminals is nothing. Their marginal cost---the cost of a 19" monitor, keyboard, mouse, and vga port---is about $130, so buy a few dozen. They'll probably last five years, so the cost per student per year would be less than four bucks: is that so high? There's no serious educational use for a computer except web-based research (read: firefox) and programming (read: ocaml, ruby) so Linux is as good as anything else.
What would slashdot users think about switching from windows to linux?
GEE, I don't know!? they only masturbate to linux thrice daily. What a retarded question.
It depends what's your goal.
If you want to endoctrinate the children provide 1 OS. And make them proficient in 1 OS.
If you want to teach (impart) education, install more than 2 OS's and integrate services among them.
Teach students to think OUTSIDE the BOX...Literally.
- these are not the droids you are looking for -
Microsoft nearly gives away a lot of software to schools in the same situation you are in. Yes, buying the licenses on NewEgg isn't a 'discount'. You need to get in touch with a Microsoft sales rep. If they aren't 'helpful' in getting you a discount, ask to speak with someone else and be sure to explain your financial constraints. I think that with things such as Group Policy in Windows, it's far easier to lock down and automate things for a school and you won't freak everyone out with something brand new. If you want to go Linux, do a gradual switch over time. Otherwise I hope you have one hell of a support team.
Why do you want to upgrade the machines? What purpose would it serve, what problem would it solve?
Also, you say yourself that you're not there often enough to properly support the PCs alone, and that there are concerns about availability of required software. Those two things right there indicate pretty heavily against a switch to Linux.
Your language (eg use of the word "abhorrent") and lack of stated requirement for the change makes it sound very much like your main (or even sole) reason for wanting to switch away from Windows is to switch away from Windows. That's all well and good for your own machines, but not for ones that other people need to use.
Now for some advice. Work out what the machines need to do, who needs to maintain them, what skills and time they have, and what sorts of software is required. Make a list of pros and cons for Linux, for upgrading to XP Pro, and for leaving things as they are. Pick the one with the most sensible balance of pros and cons.
But whatever you do, don't just install your personal favourite OS on them - that goes whatever it is, be it Linux, Windows, one of the BSDs, etc.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Surely the idea is to teach the kids what they need to know when they leave school. If the Windows market share wasn't as ridiculously strong as it is, there might be an argument for running Linux...
This sounds like a job for Linux Terminal Server
http://www.k12ltsp.org/
http://www.ltsp.org/
I actually run this at home, and am writing this post from a VNC enabled Linux Terminal Server. The machines you are using sound old, so if you are willing to invest a little in server hardware, this could be a good option. If you have PXE boot capable network cards, then you can boot from the network into linux. If not then it can also be accomplished with boot disks. For the must have Windows software packages, you can use rdesktop http://www.rdesktop.org/ and setup a windows terminal server. This can get costly, but it works.
The downside to this setup is sound support. Another package out there that is supposedly quite good is no machine http://www.nomachine.com/
I have never used No Machine, but supposedly it is fast, supports sound, and Educational institutions get a 50% discount on the cost.
If you have any spare hardware kicking around, I would setup a Linux Terminal server and see how you like it. All it would take is one spare workstation that you can wipe and set up with linux. You could then easily enable all of your current machines to boot to the terminal server from floppy, and give it a trial. If it looks like it would fit the bill, then get a real server for it so you don't suffer from speed issues.
Cheers,
CB
There was a posting here some while ago about a study that concluded that for people with no previous PC experience, Windows GUI was harder to learn and work with than Linux (+Gnome I think).
There's no need to change everything at once. Install Ububtu on one machine (if they are worried about loss of capacity, and you are able, then lend them a machine for a while). Let the teachers try, let the kids try. Get feedback then re-assess.
It's also possible that one Ubuntu machine could provide you with more than one seat. If the machines are networked, then all the machines could access the one server (VNC?). Ultimately, something like the Ndiyo project may end up providing small schools with lots of seats for a small cost.
Owl tried to think of something wise to say, but couldn't.
Adding values should be done at home.
If we're dependent on schools for values we're in BIG trouble.
Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
Our church received a set of PIII desktop machines when the local school system upgraded their hardware, and I was tasked with setting them up. The hard drives had been wiped, and I was loathe to buy/administer Win98 licenses, and XP does not run very well on 64MB of memory, and I didn't want to ask the church for more memory AND license fees, so I just installed DSL (Damn Small Linix) on the boxes. Yes, I grok the jokes about DSL on church machines...
Anyway, the small amount of Windows educational software that the church wants to run on the machines runs just fine under Wine, and the machines are quite responsive.
I did try Knoppix and SuSE before trying DSL, and they just needed more memory than the machines had to work effectively.
"The 14 PC's are running either Windows 95, Windows 98, and XP Home Edition and I find this rather abhorrent."
So has anyone actually asked you to look into moving the PCs to a new operating system, or are you just a zealot trying to cram Linux down peoples' throats? You aren't going to win anyone over to Linux by being an arrogant prick and dumping a new OS on them just to show off how 31337 you are because you know how to install Linux and configure X.
For those kids, there's no doubt in my mind Ubuntu would be ideal.. I mean what do they really need?? Word Processing?? Access to the Internet?? Not to mention educational games?? Well the price is right.. I personally think, for that given situation, its perfectly worthless to have Windows of any kind on those machines when there is a great free solution.. I personally think there is a great future in Linux.. And in my opinion, you don't even need to teach them Windows.. There's hardly anyone that uses Linux in the first place in comparison to the people that use Windows.. so why not breed Super Mutant Space Monsters and make the fluent in Linux? but really, if you're on a budget, why not make a statement, and use Linux.. It will influence other people too.
*plays the Apogee theme song music*
I think Linux now is okay for kids. From my experience, "Ubuntu" is one of good distros and stupidly easy to install or set up. You may want to try "Fedora Core" but it doesn't support multimedia by default unlike other Linux distros such as Debian and Gentoo.
It's going to cost you next to nothing to try out (ed)?ubuntu, so go for it! As long as you can afford one hard disk drive out of your own pocket, you needn't risk trashing the existing Windows installation on the machine you experiment with. Check out the applications available, and then show them to the teachers who will have to work with them. Seeing as Ubuntu prides itself on being i-tal, all applications will be Open Source; so there probably are versions compiled for Windows that the kids could take home even if they're still running legacy systems there, and of course no worries regarding licencing. Note: if your machines hail from the Windows 95 era, you might want to get some local Debian geek to graft you a faster desktop such as XFCE or IceWM onto your Ubuntu in place of Gnome -- it might run a bit faster.
It is not the place for schools to teach people how to use Microsoft software {which would essentially be propping up an illegal monopoly}. If we are to have this wonderful "choice" thing in the software marketplace, schools should be teaching the abstract concepts which are applicable to a wide range of software. However, I rather suspect that, as in other areas, that might be rather more choice than the self-styled advocates of "choice" are calling for.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
I've set up a computer lab with LTSP (included in edubuntu) for a church community outreach program. They were
given 20-25 computers that the boy scouts had bought at a county auction for $20 and donated. I have been able to get 12 usable terminals. They average about 32 megs of ram and work quite nicely. The server is a 2.8 gig cpu w/ 1gig ram. Some things to note:
1. Kids don't care what OS is running. They'll use whatever is in front of them. It's the adults that'll whine like 3 year olds when put in front of an unfamiliar interface and application. So keep the adults/teachers on the windows boxes until they're comfortable with a new setup.
2. The nice thing about using OSS is you can give a copy of the applications, like openoffice or tuxtype, to those who can't afford to buy the commercial version. The argument that you have to use the application that businesses use in the "real world" is a load of crap. Teaching people the concepts of where to find the usual supects in an application: file,edit,view, configuration and how to save as, cut, copy and paste...etc, is far more useful in real life, because they may be using a real world application they've never seen before. And these principles carry to all OSes and most well written applications.
3. Maintainance of the LTSP server isn't that time consuming. You'll spend as much time or more delousing and
updating the remaining windows machines. If you have a Linux Users Group (LUG) in your area you're in luck and may be able to find a member willing to help for no or little money.
So my advice would be to use an LTSP setup where you could add more terminals for students at little or no cost
(these pc's are obsoleted throw-aways to businesses and govt.). Run a samba server for the windows computers worth saving and you will have a system that should serve most peoples needs. A win-win situation. Good luck !!
I don't seem to understand this assumption. Just because you're asking someone to switch from a Windows interface to a Linux disto interface, why is it automatically assumed they're going to have a difficult time making the transition? If they can perform the two basic functions of modern computer use (press key on keyboard, click button on mouse), I'll bet they'll pick up the system just fine. A couple of posters mentioned Edubuntu, and based on the what I've seen of that, I can't think of a reason that any minimally-capable child (or teacher, for that matter) couldn't master the use of that system in rapid fashion.
I also believe this idea of you not being around much to manage the systems is something not to worry about either. I'm a system administrator and our site's systems all run Windows. I'm not there all the time. The computers get heavy use on weekends and when I'm away on a trip or on holiday. Sometimes stuff breaks, and if it isn't critical (which it rarely is), it waits until I return. My guess is that if there were some unforseen glitch with one of these Linux boxes, a remedy could wait until you return. And if you're setting up a server, is remote access an option?
As for the day-to-day maintenance, I run a couple of Kubuntu systems at home and on the job, and I rarely find the need to "do" anything to them other than use them. On my personal system, I'm run Adept every few days to see what packages have been updated, and maybe I'll tweak something here or there. But, I don't spend any more time under the hood with these systems than I do with a Windows box.
Perhaps there's a faculty member on the school staff who might have an interest in this new system enough for you to show them the basics. You might train the trainer, as it were, and provide some information on routine maintenance, just to cover you in your absence. You could also provide a list of bookmarks/links to the plethora of Linux sites out there, specifically sites about the distro you choose.
One other thing: why not set the distro up on a single machine and show it to the staff at the school? Give them the opportunity to see what you're proposing, let they play with it a bit. My bet is that the unique experience of using a decent Linux distro, combined with the low cost and your enthusiasm, will let it sell itself. This sounds like an exciting project to me.
Joe Dougherty, Florida, USA
The words I thought I brought, I left behind. So, never mind.
What would the esteemed Slashdot readers think of shifting all these machines to a Linux distro
This is like going to a Republican convention and asking them if we should go to war.
The OS is really the gateway drug.
How about when you want to expand into application software realms? Art, music, math, science...you can rpm/apt-get/emerge to your heart's content if you don't make a lousy OS choice on the front end.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
I know where you are comming from Cliff. I was in your shoes a few years ago when my wife "volunteered" me to be the Technology Director at my kids' school.
Here is the setup:
- One elementary school with 300 kids and a couple of PCs.
- No internet access, no technology curriculum.
What we did:
- Obtained donated PCs and software
- converted part of library to computer lab with a network of 25 PCs
- obtained donated DSL connection ($30 a month)
- adopted technology curriculum from our state's department of education
Lessons learned:
1. I am a Linux zealot but, as much as I wanted to, I could not force Linux on these kids who needed to be able to use their skills at home doing papers, etc. A survey of our school revealed that, of kids with PCs at home, about 99% had Windows, the rest had Macs.
2. We obtained grants or asked for donations for Windows and Office software. This worked remarkably well.
3. All our "enterprise" stuff was Linux: file/print/web/mail servers, routers, firewall, etc. We ran PHP Nuke and a static web site (the parents loved it). We ran samba and gave each kid access to two shares - one of which was their "web page" which was accessible by the whole school via an intranet (the kids loved that). All the Linux stuff was purposely behind the scenes (to not scare volunteers). It worked like a charm and the only constant questions were "how much does it cost?" followed by "is that legal?".
4. We ran Dansguardian/Squid/Squidguard on Linux for content filtering (the parents loved that). By the way, it was a requirement in order to get some grants that we comply with the Children Internet Protection Act (CIPA). I believe the CIPA requirement had more to do with the fact that the computer lab was in the library, but that also allowed us to apply to more grants (i.e. for "library" projects).
5. On hindsight, we should NOT have run a mail server. We ran Postfix on Linux with SquirrelMail for Web Mail. It added too much to my burden as a SysAdmin and, as a volunteer, I did not have the time.
6. You have heard of "vendor lock-in"? Well, using Linux created a "volunteer lock-in". I could not go anywhere. Even after setting up Webmin and putting together a "technology team" of trained kids and parents, I could not get anyone to run the network well enough. When I had to move, the network began to crumble.
7. Linux geeks from my User's Group were happy to work on a Windows machine just so they can curse as they do it. Microsofties would not come close to a Linux machine.
8. REWARD YOUR VOLUNTEERS. You would not believe how much it meant to some people to have the school Principal write a letter of appreciation to their boss/company - and that costs nothing.
Cliff, you are doing a good thing. You love Linux for the same reason you are helping these kids. I wish you all the best.
I also help with a small school (300 students k-12, ballpark).
First of all, as the first comment states, if you have some machines running windows 95 or 98, they may be too old to run Windows XP anyway. Regardless, as he also pointed out, upgrading 14 PCs to Windows XP Pro would cost roughly $1400.
The time you would spend administering 14 linux PCs would dwarf the time you would spend administering 14 Windows-based PCs, particularly if they're all Windows XP Pro. I presume, if your school situation is at all like mine, that you would end up being both the administrator of this small network as well as the "help desk". Believe me; if you make a bunch of people who are familiar with Windows switch to Linux, you will get more calls than you can handle. The point is, the additional cost in time investment would be valued at *far* more than $1400.
What would you be getting for all of this? A system that very few people are interested in using (or motivated to learn how), and that's provided that everything is actually up and running. You yourself admitted that you don't have time to be a full-time admin.
More than one commenter made pie-in-the-sky platitudes about education and how it's supposed to be about experiementing, and learning, and blah blah blah. Dicking around with a Linux box that you have no idea how to use and for which there is no one to teach you is not education. For most kids, that would be the quickest way to kill any motivation for learning. We're talking about high-school students, right? Even the brightest ones still haven't really developed a passion for learning yet (with exceptions).
You would really go through all of this just to stick it to Microsoft? Sounds like you need to get a grip, and maybe even go to therapy.
Don't become a regular here, you will become retarded. -- Yoda the Retard
First, asking /. about whether you should switch to linux is like asking Bill Gates if you should switch to M$ :P
But back on topic, one thing you need to consider while you are determining the pros/cons of each alternative (note i'm assuming you are going to do a feasibility study of some sort rather than just blindly choosing one or the other) is what the kids use at home. For MOST kids age 4-12 they won't understand too much about computers (other than clicking and going to a specific program to draw stuff, or whatever) and chances are their parents are running Windows at home ('nix is not very friendly to computer illiterate people) and suddenly you get a slew of parents who believe that they have to buy 'nix computers in order for their kids to get the best opportunities. This can cause you more issues than just the admin/monetary problems.
Just pointing it out so that you consider every angle rather than just the obvious ones.
Have you considered running remote terminals? I saw some responses pointing in that direction but no major chitchat about it, unless I'm blind...
I know citrix servers are rather popular in the education industry, but I suppose running linux to remote desktop into a windows environment on a few servers would be just as easy to set up, and 3 or 4 windows xp pro or 2k3 server licenses should be cheaper than the bulk license you originally considered.
For instance, when I took over the backup admin duties for our school district with 3 TereBytes of data distributed accross 200 schools needing nightly backup, I tried all the commercial solutions without success. Now I use RSYNC and a Linux array to successfully backup the enterprise data. I think that ubuntu and edubuntu will have a learning curve for an admin if they haven't messed with Linux much, but that curve is doable and short. I say go for it. - Travis
Moderation in All Things... Especially Moderation - gurutc
Looking at the programs that come with Linux distros, you have software for writing, math, drawing, graphing, and other activities that learning requires.
You also have a HUGE collection of FOSS utilities and games and compilers.
For those bits of educational software that run only on Win95, keep your current Win95 machines, just don't put in the networking software. Dual boot them to Linux and use Linus to maintain them (just keep and image locally or on the network that will overwrite the Win95 partition) Do the same for the Win98 machines and a few XP boxes.
For network access (browsers and such) require Linux. (argue better security)
After classes, the Win95/98/XP machines can be booted into Linux to do teacher administrative stuff.
Encourage the students and teachers to search for and write code for tasks they need. (Free software)
Use Linux on any servers. The security arguement will generally win.
Remember the motto of surgeons. "See one, do one, teach one"
All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
It doesn't sound like you can afford to have computers so you should just remove them. By putting Linux on them that is basically what you are doing. I graduated high school in 1995 and our school used Mac only. Lets all thank Apple for giving their hardware away to all the schools. When I got to college there wasn't a Mac on campus. A few weeks later I had know how to use Windows and type a paper in Word.
Unless you don't think Windows will be used in the real world when these kids get out of high school then you are doing them an injustice by only using Linux.
Casey
Trust me, kids will have no trouble picking up Linux if they're used to Windows. My kids, 6 and 10 years old, use both depending on what they're doing. Windows for gaming, Linux for most other tasks. I did not teach them how to do anything except to point out which programs to use for what. The ten year old has even started using OpenOffice.org to write books including illustrations and she figured it all out an her own. The idea that Linux is somehow harder for kids is a projection of adults' feelings about the matter. And who says that Linux skills are not transferrable to Windows? I mean point-and-click is point-and-click, no? Does someone honestly believe that if my daughter knows how to use OO.o that she will have a hard time learning MS Word? If anything, these kids will have more computer skills than other kids who have not been exposed to alternative operating systems/software.
My 2 cents!
And it didn't affect my ability to learn windows later in life and get a job for a company that uses primarily windows desktops.
What Windows skills do they really need?
Using any OS these days is a matter of clicking on menus and buttons. If they can work with Linux then Windows should not be a big leap. My kids use both with no real problems switching between them.
Let the learn the basics on Linux and they will deal with Windows when they meet it.
I just installed Ubuntu at home on a computer for my wife and kids and while I have some limited experience with UNIX and VAX VMS back in the early 90's, I have been in a windows shop ever since. Ubuntu installs easily, recognized my hardware, and worked 99%. Problem areas have been, getting older printer to work correctly, changing the resolution on my screen, audio on flash. My kids play a lot of flash games on-line and the audio doesn't work for some reason. Success: Cost, ease of install, my wife can check her email, my kids can write their papers on OpenOffice and print to my printer on my windows machine. Ubuntu has shown me that Linux has made great strides in the desktop arena and is well worth investigating before shelling out the bucks.
You don't say why you want to upgrade them. If they're adequate to requirements, then leave them as they are. As they break down, they'll be replaced (hopefully) with new computers running XP or Vista Home Edition preinstalled.
You seem to be just proposing installing linux for the hell of it. That isn't a good enough reason.
Electronic Whiteboards may jus be a fad and not add any real value to education (just like computers in general don't) but they are considered really important at the moment.
I really wish we (the linux crowd) could get a foot in the door here but it's very hard.
Our elemrntary has swithed to Linux. They are a test project for the entire district. The people running the project are William Fragakis and Daniel Howard. Contact them through the school. morrisbrandon.com. It is very impressive.
I've been using Ubuntu for several months now. I like it very much, but there is one problem I've encountered for which I can't find a fix, and it could affect a school installation: I can't install any keyboard language except US English. If I try, it generates an ugly error.
If not for this problem, I'd say that Ubuntu is the Linux distribution that is ready to conquer desktops everywhere.
Rich And Stupid is not so bad as Working For Rich And Stupid.
Having worked in public education for numerous years, I understand the dilemma that your having. First and foremost your first priority must always be the children. Running an alternative OS probably isn't the best idea when it comes down to supporting children's educational applications. I'm probably pretty sure the school system has already dumped thousands of dollars towards software that you may or may not be able to support under *nix. There is always the possibility of using your antiquated equipment in a terminal solution. The machines running 9x can hold a custom stripped down image that only runs only the remote desktop client. When problems arise with the client simply reimage the machine- this can be performed in a matter of only a few minutes. This would focus all of your apps onto one server. The only draw back is the cost of the client licensing. This is only a suggestion, but you must realize that your goal is to support the children. There is no way in the world to skip costs and do that effectively and reliably. Spend the money for the products you need, and try to use all of your existing equipment as effectively as possible. After which, look at replacement cycling and transferring older machines to lower grade levels after a certain amount of years. You MUST have a plan other wise your solution will always be doomed to fail.
And force them to learn something that probably won't be around by the time they graduate anyway. Bill Gates has many different programs for funding Windows to schools. None of my children's schools have ever had to pay a dime. Why don't you look into that?
So recently my wife was pulling her hair out using her Dell Inspirion 1000 laptop running WinXP. She was having all kinds of problems with it crashing, things not working, etc. She had used Linux (Debian) on my laptop before and asked if she could give it a try. So I installed Ubuntu Linux (Breezy Badger) on her Dell Inspirion. Installing was a breeze, minus requiring the ndis wrapper for the fairly common Netgear wireless card, everything ran great out of the box.
Once set up I handed it over to her, gave her a quick 5 minutes tour of where everything was and she was on her way.
She now has been using it for about 2 months. She uses OpenOffice and GIMP for doing project plans and other classroom related stuff and has been tinkering around with a number of other things the platform offers.
Here is the downside. She has a number of smaller applications. One creates crossword puzzles, another does banner-art type stuff. These are obviously Windows programs and so far only one of them works under wine. Because of the lack of RAM in her machine I set up a WinXP system in VMWare on another system that she VNC's in to for using these programs. The windows system, once built in VMWare and everything installed was tar'ed up and burned to DVD for easy recovery when it dies and her Linux machine has been extremely stable.
She has a few complaints about the Ubuntu desktop, layout and what-not, but nothing big enough to prevent her from using it. She is really happy with it and proud of herself for making the switch. In fact, my intention was to dual boot her system, but her CD-ROM drive had died, it refused to read CD's, only DVD's. So Ubuntu installed, I had no Windows DVD's (does Windows come on DVD??) and she has never complained once about not having a local Windows machine.
You may wish to check out Xandros' offerings to the education world. Xandros integrates nicely with Crossover Office, an enhanced version of Wine that is easier to use and runs many Windows apps flawlessly.
I also do the computers for 2 local schools(4-12 also) and considered the switch to a linux based distro.
The main problem I found was I had trouble getting some of the childrens software to run properly with wine... some of it did work though (to some degree).
K-12Linux Project
k12ltsp.org: Linux is free in terms of cost and in terms of development because it's based on Open Source software. We are free to adapt the work of others for use in our schools. This kind of freedom produces better software and makes Linux the right choice for schools and agencies concerned with the ethical use of public funds.
Most people who use Windows don't see past their nose when it comes to their computing needs. Look at the long term and where do you want your school in 5 years. Linux and Open Source IS keeping up and the software is readily available and with a little digging, your systems can be VERY compatible in a Microsoft world.
Me: When I am forced to use MS-Windows, I run it in VMplayer http://www.vmware.com/vmplayer. It is free. It is the best at running Microsoft software, especially ActiveX and DirectSound and a number of other gotches that cause other emulators to hiccup. You can even run it full screen and think you are on a Windows box. But having Linux run on your hardware will make it easier for anyone to manage. Go buy a copy of Mandriva 2006 at http://www.linuxcentral.com.
Also, I am running virus free with Linux for the past 8 years without the use of anti-virus software. To me, Linux IS the anti-virus software. But if you really think you need it, Linux has an external package available to do that for you. And if you get a virus on Windows running in VMplayer, simply reload the virtual drive image. No hassle!
I was involved in a project to install a Linux network out of donated machines for a day care center. I was tasked to find educational software for the kids.
There really was almost none. I happened to be in a store that had educational software on the shelves a little later and I realized that choosing Linux for these kids meant they could never use any of that stuff.
I don't think Linux coders are very interested in making things like The oregon trail or Where in the world is Carmen San Diego. And commercial companies are not making Linux versions.
Don't get me wrong, Linux is great, but it doesn't allow much educational software to run. You could use Linux on a couple machines and let them access it via cygwin X and ssh if there's a compelling reason for Linux (like if you have older kids and they want to learn some programming).
Have a look at this story (also here). It's the tale of how one school's sysadmin converted the computer lab to Linux (Mandrake), KDE, and a host of open-source education and productivity applications.
Assumptions:
- You are an IT worker and not one of the teachers who are wanted need for educating the kids.
- You make a "decent" salary. For the purpose of my post I'll assume about $30,000 US.
Solution:
Resign from your position and introducing the teachers and students to Macintosh. Find the older kids and maybe even a teacher or two who are interested in computers and introduce them to the Apple Support Site and various very useful forums. Then resign and let the school use what would have been your salary to replace the aging Windows machines with Mac minis. Allowing for $1,000 a machine including any additional hardware that might be needed (monitors, keyboards, and/or mice), that would mean you could just about double the number of computers the school currently has. With that few number of Macs, any "interested" older child or teacher could easily do what little maintenance is needed.
[let the linux fan boy flames begin!]
I would suggest another ubuntu distro like edubuntu. It is especially made for children and also makes learning linux easier.
Why do the parents have to buy the Windows Word at full cost JUST because the teachers REQUIRE word?
Why not test it out using the live CD? Let some staff and pupils give it a try and see what they think.
Even though this is a school, what is the business case for changing the OS?
Is it just admin preference of having one OS to administer, or is it something else?
Are these machines even networked? Do they access the Internet? How are they being used now?
There are lots of questions to be asked before a decent decision can be made. Based on your description, I don't see a compelling reason to do anything.
Lots of charities are in this situation. They have IT ambitions which the cost of licensing new software and buying new hardware will just rule out at once. They have security worries about W9x. It is also embarrassing to have to say you are teaching people on it. On the other hand, W9x and the office suites of the day run much more snappily and with more modern features than any Linux distro you can load on a W95 or even W98 machine. You can get DSL to work fast, but it doesn't have the apps. You can get stripped down Debian with fvwm or windowmaker or even enlightenment to run, but you really cannot give people an education in modern computing with Kword running under fvwm, its as bad as W9x. We probably like it a lot better, but to the external world its a strange sort of dog. You will have more objections from everyone.
The answer is either to swallow and stay with Windows until more cash becomes available, or to go to LTSP or Skole Linux on the oldest machines first. However, going to LTSP means having a robust backup strategy for the server, and cutting the machines over very carefully till you hit performance limits. This is what I would do. I would say to the school, yes, you are right to be concerned about both security and obsolescence (assuming that's what they are concerned about), and yes, upgrading it all will be expensive, so don't. But, there is something you can do to improve the experience and buy you a few more years on the old hardware, and it will be an interesting and educational project for the older computer science kids in addition. And it will let you use donated hardware much better as it comes in.
The most important thing is to make them aware that it is not risk free. One assumes that what is in place now does work, and probably will carry on working for the next year or two. There are real risks in cutting the machines over.
Two very important things: don't be the only expert. Make sure the whole installation is done with other people who can take over if need be. Also, have a quick way back in case of need.
I use Fedora Core 4 on my kids' machine. It comes with
:)
lots of edutainment software built in, and is easy to
setup and maintain. I have been able to modify and
install software easily though CVS, YUM, and RPMs.
Once you have a Linux machine running there isn't
much to do to it, unless it fails. If you create an
image of the install and build a bootable CD from that,
the repair of any failed machine would be to replace
the bad part and reload the image. All new machines
could be ready in just a few minutes.
Some of the reasons I would suggest Linux over Windows:
First: Cost. Windows XP will run $60/machine
(School/non-profit pricing), but will not run very well
on anything lower than a 500Mhz. Let's face it, most
schools use 5 year old tech that is donate from companies.
Second: Education. Using Linux allows the kids to see
another OS besides Windows (which they likely use at home).
Third: What wil the teachers actually be doing on these
machines once they are setup?
Probably not much.
Fourth: Tux plushies are more cuddly than windws.
EF
As a technical writer turned English teacher I couldn't imagine pushing papers all day long. I built an LTSP network in my HS lit. class, with the support of my administration, and loved it. The tools available for evaluating papers and providing speedy feedback to students is nothing compared to my new environment. I'm a computer teacher now in a Windows environment. I've never had so many problems doing what was easy under Linux. A few simple scripts under Linux to gather up students work takes hours to do under Windows, not to mention the cost of every little bit of software I need to make my job easier under Linux is very expensive under Windows. Go LTSP. Learn a little scripting and you'll be golden.
If I may add right now, one of the reasons Linux is not getting the play it so rightly deserves in schools is that most teachers are not trained on how to use computers or software. More screencasts of software training, I feel, is definitely needed. Teachers are chronically overworked, definitely under appreciated, and they don't want to sit and read a manual online or offline. Let's help out and publish screencasts for them. Let's show them how technology can take the secretarial tasks out of teaching and promote them to the knowledge managers they should be.
Is the current system *working*, or are you just upgrading to be 1337 like the rest of the linsux geeks?
LTSP or K12LTSP might be a perfect choice. If you have a computer powerful enough you can use as a server it would be a good way to get some more life out of older PCs or make use of older, donated PCs in the future. Clients work perfectly fine on 32MB of RAM and slow celeron CPUs.
.doc, .xls and so forth. You can also then provide a CD with OpenOffice for kids to take home and install (if they have PCs at home).
This would also ease your administation headaches as all admin is done on the server, not on the workstations. A software update doesn't have to be installed on all machines, just on the server.
Do they really need MS Office? They certainly need an Office suite, but really examine their needs and I think you'll find that OpenOffice is more than adequate. Simply change the default Save As option for documents, spreadsheets, etc to MS compatible
Make a list of everything they are using now for software. Then start looking for either equivalent Linux software or do some testing with WINE. If it's not graphics intense or heavily Windows-reliant you should be ok. And remember, these could all be running on an LTSP server, not the clients, so each client doesn't have to be as powerful.
I certainly see no reason why most schools can't move to Linux in many areas. I think Windows has its place for certain things and can't be replaced by Linux desktops. But in general, for daily use, Linux can be a much more cost-effective alternative. Plus there is something to be said for public funds/time going to support public efforts like OSS.
When the kids get out in the real world, they're going to learn that all the applications they learned aren't used anywhere in the business world. Not only that, but the cost of upgrading the computers isn't that great, extremely deep discounts are given to academic places. In fact, under their SPLA, if for some reason you are short on cash, you can pay around $7/month for each copy of Windows XP. If you even called Microsoft you may even be able to finagle cheaper licenses, as they want to make sure their product is in the schools, ESPECIALLY if you drop the "we'd like to use Linux bomb". Ultimately, I feel that while Linux is better OS in a lot of cases, until it has more market reach, kids should be learning on what they will use, and what they use at home. Not only that, but Unix administrators generally cost more than Windows administrators, should anything happen to you.
Earlier in the thread you called someone a windows elitist simply because he voiced his opinion, yet you too were there fighting tooth and nail to make sure you have enough ammunition to do what you want to do. If you're going to post an Ask Slashdot, you are going to get differing opinions than yours. If you were looking for something to concretely backup your statement, Ask Slashdot is not the place to do it. Besides, what administrator actually cares what a bunch of self-proclaimed geeks on a web site think about the issue?
Besides -- If these kids can use both Windows and Linux (it's almost impossible to avoid exposure to MS these days), then they will be more capable when they get out to the real world than kids who only know Windows.
Having had access to Linux could get some of these kids jobs straight out of school that they wouldn't otherwise have access to.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
One minor quibble here: whatever OS the "rest of the world" is using is less important than you may think. After all, the UI between one version of Microsoft Office and the other changes more than, say, the UI of KDE and Windows 2000. Linux has evolved enough that the children will be able to deal with moving to Windows when they go elsewhere. There is very little unique about Microsoft's products that would make a learning curve in later life steeper. If anything, moving from a Posix environment to a Windows environment is easier than the other way 'round.
Remember, until the mid 1990's "IBM-compatible" computers were dominated by CLI interfaces: today's Windows bears more resemblance to what the little beige boxes Apple sold, so learning the "dominant OS" back then wasn't really an advantage for students. Even later, students who used (for example) Apple's System 7.x weren't at a disadvantage to those using Windows 95.
In my opinion, a school computer should provide the tools that the teacher needs to manage the class, and for the students to create their own projects. Learning software has less impact than these two factors. Kids learn more when they make their own stuff, but most schools seem to see computers as glorified videorecorders/overhead projectors.
"The problem is most teachers are arrogant, so they want to spend their time in the classroom to teach"
The AUDACITY!!!
HOW DARE THEY!!!
I can't imagine why teachers (with around 50 minutes or so per class period) wouldn't want to use that time learning a new OS, instead of ACTUALLY TEACHING.
The worst part though, is your moronic assertion that teachers are "arrogant" for wanting to teach. How did you arrive at such a ridiculous conclusion? Perhaps you had a teacher who wasn't "arrogant", didn't teach you anything, and you're taking your cues from them.
Did you decide to troll on purpose, or was it accidental?
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
I recommend installing a distro like ubuntu on the oldest machines and let the rest be for the time being. Kids learn things quickly and in todays world it is almost essential to be familiar with at least windows AND some kind of unix system (ie. linux, os x, freebsd, solaris). Furthermore, doing so will leave a back up in case you are not onsite and there is some problem with the linux machines (user problem).
I think you have to ask yourself "What really matters".. Obviously, these machines are used to PRIMARILY run educational software. Whatever will get this accomplished is your best option. If the software is untested on linux, do not go that route. You'll be hindering the education of the kids. I worked for a VAR and we would partner with a school and give computer, software, maintenance time, etc.. So you might want to try looking for some assistance somewhere.
How much are you willing to support?
Linux is a nice free OS, but has never griped to be very user friendly, especially not for people used to Windows. For these people, some have tried to help with X windows system that has near look&feel as a windows machine.
So question is, how much Linux knowledge do you or your support staff have? Do you know how to troubleshoot in case something is wrong with the installation.
How much do you wanna spend on educate the teachers in use of Linux, and what about the children. Most of them are properly used to Windows installations at home, and need to know how Linux works.
Evenmore if you fail educating the teachers, and they feel it is a big problem having to learn another OS, the whole project would fail.
So you need to check the background of users before deciding. The cost of an upgrade will in the beginning be placed at education rather than being a save.
This is a very good point. If the apps are using Qt, then the GUI should be Qt also, when low-end hardware is a consideration.
Since Edubuntu seems to be just a set of packages and themes installed on Ubuntu, I was going to suggest installing a more lightweight desktop, also. Xfce or EDE will use fewer resources than either KDE or Gnome will. (I know there is a "xubuntu-desktop" package for Xfce, but I don't know about EDE support in Ubuntu.) But if those edutainment apps are the ones that will primarily be used, it may still make sense from the resource usage standpoint to go with KDE.
Constitutionally Correct
The OP wasn't particularly specific about whether this school was part of a district, and if it's not, much of the following can be disregarded.
Having actually worked in a medium-large district in IT (PC Support Tech in Poudre School District, 43 schools), I can tell you that little frosted us more than people like you. Fort Collins, CO is a pretty technical area (HP, Agilent, and LSI Logic are large employers and there is a major university), so there were a lot of parents with technical expertise. There's nothing wrong with offering advice, but far too many of the parents assumed that they knew better than the professionals employed by the district. Knowing how to write a C compiler or admin a Linux system doesn't mean that you understand the kind of requirements and challenges faced by IT workers.
At PSD, we ran Windows because it was cheap. Really cheap. If you are a reasonably large district (~ 14000 seats in our case), Microsoft is willing to give you a deal. Under $40 a seat for Windows + Office, in many cases.
Could we have switched to Linux? Perhaps. But such a project requires a lot of time and a lot of money. We hadn't even migrated from 2000 to XP when I left PSD.
We didn't accept donated hardware in PSD because it costs quite a bit more to support - it's frequently outdated, and when it breaks it becomes a nightmare to repair. We purchased 1800 systems over the summer when I was at PSD in 2004, so it really doesn't make sense to spend hours refurbishing and deploying a few donated systems. 20 hours of extra labor is all it takes to erase all of the benefit from a donated system, and that's assuming that the system is as good as what we would have purchased.
Bottom line: talk to the district IT department. They know their requirements better than you do.
I did this in a 12 machine school in Ireland. It wasn't hard but it wasn't easy either.
We had a similar scenario and asked Microsoft if we could downgrade the WinXP/WinNT 4 machines to Win98. They said no. Given that we didn't want to run illegal software our only choice was Linux.
There were three main problems
* hardware configuration
* user management
* Windows applications
* Course material
Hardware configuration
Each machine was a different hardware config (having been bought at different times over 6 years or so). And thus needed a separate XF86Config (as it was then) file. They also needed different network cards in the modules.autoload. It was not real biggy, but caused some teething problems.
User Management
What is the easiest way of allowing Teachers enter in the names and passwords for their students? I don't know. You might want to go with LDAP these days but I had a simple WEb script which took a list of student names (eg: Random Hacker)), created a user name (eg: rhacker) and set the password to something simple like their surname (eg: hacker). I felt it was quite important for each student to have a password even if it was simple as it got them used to logging in and gave them "ownership" of their own desktop space.
Windows Applications
With Abiword, The Gimp and some others I found most staff wanted to run the Linux apps on their windows laptops rather than wanted Windows applications on Linux. The major problem was the stupid little Macromedia flash based "educational" cames that came free on your breakfast cereal. I simply told the teachers that if I installed Linux these games would nvever work. Wine is hit and miss so I decided to manage expectations and not lie. Their analysis (as educators) was thet they'd rather have a consistant desktop and applications for students than have crappy "educational" games. They appreciated the honesty.
Course Material
I wrote a simple ECDL derived word processing course for Abiword. All students above 6 or 7 were capable of doing it and enjoyed it. Those younger than 6 tended to play gcompris which thought them the difference between single and double click and how to add money etc... But this was the major stumbling block for me. It takes time and a lot of effort. I'd love to see an OSS project take this on.
Just my 0.2c and I hope you get as much enjoyment for providing education as I did.
From the sound of it... "250 pupils... 14pc's... home village ", Microsoft might just give you those upgrades for free and make you the next poster child ...
On a more serious note Microsoft does have educational licensing. The thing you have to balance is (1) teaching those teachers Linux (not an easy feat... trust me) and (2) trying to get older educational software to run under WINE. Take a computer and play with it for awhile. Determine what your time is worth and start working on it. Chances are 14 XP licenses are worth more. WINE is great and all but educational game programmers can do some weird stuff to make their games do what they do...
The upgrades fees are a pain in the ass, eh? I think it's a bigger pain in the ass having to run XP Pro on machines that are running Windows 95 and 98... I mean, I could easly assume that those are old machines... and we all know how XP treats old computer systems. Maybe a really customized Ubuntu (or any other distro for that matter) installation will run perfectly on all computers. Good luck.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I'm surprised that many of the arguments here sound like a religious war is being waged. I don't believe that there is anything inherently wrong in Windows (maybe MS but that is a company not a product) other then the developers made different choices at various points and emphasized different functionality. It does not need to be one or the other, that is a false dichotomy. I think offering the students some choice can be really beneficial here in helping them understand the trade offs made in life, OS creation is just one example. One of the major complaints about Microsoft is that they are brainwashing the next generation and choosing any OS for them makes you just as naughty.
It is not about Windows or Linux or Mac, it is about kids and education. I think it important that the students have access to both OS's to learn on as it expands their horizons. I'm think forcing them into a Linux box is just as bad as forcing them into a Windows box, both leave the kids in a box. You can save $$ now by making half the machines Linux AND open up a new world of apps without closing the old one. Don't have enough machines? How about a dual boot. Basically I think that it is fair for kids to know there is a choice in life, not just the one best marketed. They have a part to play in this choice though, they need to choose and learn how to do so. Taken to the extreme you could say that every OS should be offered, but I belive that is unecessary. From my perspective the goal would be to show them they have a choice, that their choices matter and dictate their next set of options. Two OS's really serve this purpose and I think a *nix and a Windows are wise if you have to choose two.
I used to do this job so I know this will make it harder on you to support both OS's, but the value the kids will gain will be huge. I would also offer that you can do what I did and take a couple of the more interested kids on to help support and maintain the infrastructure. They'll get a fast track to knowledge and you'll get a helping hand. It is astounding how much progress a 10 year old can make on a problem if they find it interesting.
Find out what the teachers want -- what software do they run now? What objectives do they use it to accomplish? What software do they wish they could run? Do they hate the computers, and will they hate them more if you install linux?
You are letting sysadmin questions drive the decisions. The admin considerations are important, sure, and need to be taken into account. But you need to start with the pedagogical questions, find out what options satisfy those objectives, and then pick the option that is best from an admin standpoint.
Everyone think about what elementary school machines are actually used for, and what will actually be different on windows vs linux.
Teachers:
Web - firefox/ie, whatever, no difference.
Email - They probably use webmail, so no difference.
Grades (usually just in one big ol' spreadsheet per class unless your school actually has a competent tech guy) - our school was still doing it in works 3.0 or something, so switching to gnumeric or the OpenOffice.org equivalent won't really matter.
Lesson Plans - This is one that might actually be a toughie for adoption. My mom's school has a special lesson-plan maker program that the teachers are accustomed to using, and which probably doesn't export all their old lesson plans nicely to just doing it in OpenOffice or something. I know they had problems moving to OS X because the version they had couldn't print from classic.
Word Processing - They're probably using an archaic version of Word anyway, and OpenOffice so blatantly copies the Word interface (and everything wrong with it, rant rant) that once you convince them they can learn it, it should be ok.
The biggest problem with switching teachers is that, in general, elementary school teachers are some of the most tech-backward people you can find. They may have a PC at home that they understand BASIC things about, but they have no idea how to apply any of those lessons to what's at school if it's different. I saw one woman get stuck for 30 minutes because she couldn't figure out how to insert her floppy drive into the external drive on the new mac at school instead of having a slot on the computer itself. They don't like change, and so you'll want to set things up as easily and as similar to windows as possible to them. Clear off all the default krap that KDE installs and give them a simple list of things they'll want to do on the desktop. Hell, relable OpenOffice writer to Word and you'll probably have things a lot easier. Just like when I install Firefox for someone I always just replace the link on their "Internet" icon.
However, teachers don't spend much time on the computer - they're too busy teaching. Get those few things running fine for them and they won't notice the difference too much until something's broken.
School secretaries:
Standard secretary stuff. They might actually use a real email client. They will likely be more tech-savvy than the teachers, but only somewhat. The biggest thing to remember is that they are always overworked, so you want to make sure that you can get everything they need working and working WITHOUT more hassles than they used to deal with if you want to get them behind you. Set up a test system with all their stuff, then spend some time with them using it but having the option of their old one to work out everything they need differently.
The biggest issue with using something no one knows is that they will have problems troubleshooting or changing the little things that they would know how to do in windows. Like how to install a new printer, or install a new package. You've got to find some way around those problems by doing it for them or having a simplified user guide for things they're likely to do. Or you can just leave them alone, and have a multi-OS environment. At my mom's school, the teachers all run eMacs but the secretary has a PC (at her own request, I think, because it's what she knows).
Kids:
First of all, despite what every random jerk at the capitol wants to believe, kids younger than 7 or so can't do jack that's actually useful or very educational on a computer. The real usefulness of a computer to education is in the web, in wikipedia and google scholar or dictionary.com or whatever, as well as a word processor. And to make use of that, you kindof have to know how to read. So, for older kids, as long as OpenOffice reads their word files from home successfully, you have no problems. They probably have a different version of word at home (or, gasp, wordperfect. You don't know how many times I was called in to hel
It is no reason to put the kids through having the deal with linux. It is no reason to train kids on a computer system that 90% of them will never use in the workplace. Its no reason to limit their access to educational software and materials available on commercial platforms.
Abhorence of Microsoft is not a valid business case for anything.
I love Linux, Mac, and Windows, so I come from a fairly neutral standpoint. First, talk with the teachers. Don't ask what OS they would like, that's something you don't want to start. Ask what apps they use regularly, and what they would like that they don't have currently. Compile the list and examine carefully. If they can't live without an app, and it's OS specific, it would be easier to get additional funding then challenging the curriculum. If the app is cross-platform or the teachers simply like what it teaches, you may have some options. Web-based apps are always nice, since you shouldn't have to worry about OS (assuming it was written well). I know a really nice web-based math teaching tool that your school can probably get for next to nothing. Given a good interface, reasonable lock-down, good training, and reasonable political skills you can switch the OS if the needs are being met. It took me a few years to change a Mac classroom to a Windows classroom, but in the end, it was the right choice for the environment.
So many people focus on the fact that Linux is free compared to Windows, but few people realize that it isn't the OS that makes a computer, its the applications.
With regards to a school environment, there is a slew of software developed and aimed squarely at the education system on Windows compared to Linux.
Sure, you can run OpenOffice, which mimics Windows Office close enough, and you can find a handful of other applications that will work such as web browsers and even a few decent graphics applications like GIMP. But, to run a school full of Linux computers is to miss out an tonnes of edutainment and educational software available to your students.
People need to stop focusing on the price of the OS and start wondering about the software that is available. I won't suggest that Linux is NEVER a solution, perhaps in the school's administration Linux would be idea, offering the word processing, spreadsheet, and email/web utilities that faculty need to use. But when it comes to student software, Windows has it in abundance, Linux doesn't;
You also miss the point that Linux still isn't for the layman. Linux can still be difficult to install and manage. Ubuntu may be the easiest Linux around, but I spend 3 days and gave up trying to install it on my notebook because it just didn't have proper video card support. If your School PC's are old, or very new, you will find that Linux may not be appropriate for easy setup and maintenance, and you will waste YOUR valuable time trying to set them up.
I agree that schools get little funding to buy computers and software, but Microsoft among a LOT OF OTHER corporations have sponsorship programs that will donate or significantly reduce the cost of computers and software in the school. If you are finding that licensing Windows is too expensive, contact Microsoft directly and I think you will be surprise at how far they will go to ensure you run Windows in the school. I have heard of Microsoft donating PC's to schools for just setting up a discounted Windows licensing program. Also, instead of considering just what YOUR school needs, get together with other schools in the district and you could bet large quantity discounts for buying 100's of licenses and/or PC's as opposed to just the handful you need in your school.
Finally, why do you need to install Windows Pro as opposed to Windows Home? Many people think they need Pro because they need to setup a network, but few people realize that you can connect Windows XP Home workstations to a network.
In the long run, while Linux may offer an incentive over Windows for price alone, that is usually the only consideration that people look at when considering this debate. In an educational environment, exposing your children to the rich set of tools and applications available on Windows, an environment they will most likely use outside of school, is more important that just having a computer at the school running a free OS.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
We are in BIG trouble.
I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
I still remember the ol' days.. The Students were leading the teachers with the apples... Way to much hassle of retraining ... IF upgrades are needed (not considering educational discounts) Windows Home: 89$ throw in the hardware upgrades and it sounds expensive (since some are still running 95). It sounds ALOT easier then done. Wouldnt it be alot easier and maybe even cheaper to jump on the bang wagon with the $399 dells? (with monitor) - they're like what... $300 after rebates? .. Windows preloaded.... I'm, sure dell throws in a crappy printer and youre "good to go". No retrainig, no hardware upgrades. Sometimes you just cant avoid spending some money. UNLESS you're a linux guru, have a blast, but assuming youre just "comfortable" as you asked the geeks for advice.
-- I Dont Deserve A Sig I Have Bad Karma
i am semi-involved in a (currently ongoing) project to migrate a K-8 private school from Windows 2000 to a thin-client configuration (solaris/suse linux). In total it ends up being ~140 computers (~90 being thin clients).
.. continue to work .. go home and (if needed) login remotely over the internet and get to their desktop. As a result, there is less need for them to manage multiple copies of their documents and risk loss (working from a server farm provides more reliability than remembering to copy over important documents to the server to backup (yes the old backup policy was pretty bad)).
The first phase was last fall (Deployment in December) for the computer lab + in-classroom computers (administrative computers will migrate this summer).
The transition, with careful planning, ended up being quite smooth. Initially StarOffice was loaded on the Windows PCs last spring along with Firefox and other cross-platform application to start getting students and staff use to those applications. Once the systems were migrated, some of the benefits included:
- Increased software availability. More _free_ software on the Linux side allowed us to provide more capabilities for students and teachers.
- reduced costs -- administration likes the lower power consumption of the thin clients, the ability to remote admin the entire network (less IT costs), the ability to connect to their desktop from home (NX) and the increased reliability and consistency (only a handful of servers to maintain instead of over a hundred individual installations of Windows)
- Mobility. With the thin clients, a teacher could be working on a system in their classroom, go to the computer lab, pull up their desktop as they left it
- virus/malware issues vanished (obviously) = less support costs, increased productivity, etc..
Of course, this is without some downside.. Flash/Shockwave sites are hit-and-miss.. with that age group, it is important and some alternatives needed to be found. Some apps we had were Windows only. Attempting to work with Wine was not successful *enough* and (currently) requires the use of rdesktop to a Windows 2003 server. We *hope* to get rid of these apps by the next school year.
In anycase, we are not the first to do this, nor will be the last. It is very important to plan. You need to determine if it is able to meet your needs. You need to add benefit to end users to make it worthwhile to learn and provision some classes for teachers to get-up-to-speed. It might be worthwhile to create a live CD that they can boot on their home systems.
If you have a LUG or similar in your area, it might be worthwhile to see if they want to get involved. This may provide additional knowledge and expertise to the planning, setup and maintenance of the new systems.
If money is a concern, it might be worthwhile to investigate a thin client configuration. This way, old donated computers can be added to the network easily but with high-end performance.
Why not upgrade to Windows 2000??
s hstart.asp
http://www.microsoft.com/education/freshstart/fre
My five year old son (now eight) did not have any trouble picking up Linux. In fact having to type his login and password gave him a reason to spell.
I had two girls staying with us who were at the local polytechnic and they wrote lots of papers, assignments, etc., before they knew that they were using OpenOffice.
Hope this helps.
I'm constantly asking myself if it make sense to switch from the current Mac infrastructure to Linux instead of Windows but always the questions pops up: "Is this best for the childrens?". Unfortunately many children already have a computer at home with Windows installed and more unfortunate almost none of the Windows applications are also available on Linux. So these children can't use the same applications at home and in school. So IMO Linux in school only makes sense if most applications are cross-platform on Linux and Windows available.
O. Wyss
See http://wyoguide.sf.net/papers/Cross-platform.html
What would be useful to know would be what software they use now on various Windows versions and whether anything equivalent is available elsewhere. Without that this discussion is pretty irrelevant. If it's just office stuff and pictures then there's not a problem - but I bet that it isn't.
So rather than having yet another Windows v Linux discussion how about the OP adding details of what software they're trying to use so that people can comment on that?
I can't comment much on Linux per se. I would suspect that you are correct that the students will adapt more quickly than the teachers. However, I can comment on educational software.
Much of the educational software duplicates what can be cone more cheaply with pencils and paper. Examples include math drill software, etc. So you don't really need to worry about that sort of thing. However, there is other software you should look into. The best place to start is Jonassen's book Computers in the Classroom. Mind Tools for Critical thinking. Then when you've decided what you really need, you can look into what is available as a Linux distribution.
Reference: Jonassen, D. (1996). Computers in the Classroom. Mind Tools for Critical Thinking. New Jersey: Prentice Hall.
Ugrade costs: the district I work for pays something like $65 per license. Educational licensing is quite affordable.
Hardware: We run XP on P2/400 Mhz systems with 128 MB RAM (out of 160 PCs, 35 are P2s. The rest are Athlon XP or newer). It's slow to boot and multitasking is a definite no, but for students the age you're talking about and the applications they'll be using, it's fine.
Why we don't use Linux: Because we as techs would have to learn it so we could teach it to the teachers so they could teach it to the students, and because Ubuntu is actually slower on older systems than XP Pro.
I've sort of become the resident Linux advocate here. I've been working for a month to get some flavor of Linux on our old G3 Macs to revitalize them as thin clients so we can get them counted by the state (G4 is the lowest accepted by the state, thin clients are an exception).
FYI: We have about 2,500 students and maybe 650 computers (plus maybe 100 that can't be counted on the numbers we give the state), grades K-12.
120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
You could use a linux server with LTSP dumb terminals.
...is tuxlabs (www.tuxlab.org.za also see http://interviews.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/0 4/04/1859255 )
This is actual, practical, applied LTSP setups in schools using older computers (*and a powerful central server*).
Unfortunately this iniative is not as well known as Ubuntu!
The user experience, point and click, in Linux (ubuntu) and Windows is practically identical. Linux also has one BIG advantage - it is truly a multi-user system. When I originally set up a server in my home, I chose Linux precisely because I didn't want to have whatever my children did in their login affect my login - nor did I want to hear people complaining about how "he deleted my files" (we have 4 boys). My children all gre up on Linux. They all know more about Windows than I do, too, because they have a couple of Windows machiens they play games on - and have to reinstall everything 5-6 times a year.
If the question is learning how computers operate in the workplace, you could make a case for Windows, since on a system admin level they're different to configure and customize, but then more and more businesses are finding Linux too goo a deal to avoid, too, so that argument may someday be moot (as one will need to know something about both).
However, if the question is teaching them to do school work on a computer: browser works the same, word processor works almost the same, spreadsheet works almost the same, etc etc etc.
Linux is cheaper to keep, breaks down elss often, has better multi-user capabilities.
You'll want to set up a server machine on your LAN that all the ubuntu Linux boxes would need to be pointed at so that you have only one machine to set up logins on, etc. NIS. Ditto for printing.
The nice thing is that once you get it all set up, you'll be essentially done... it should just work until the hardware fails.
Best of luck!
Hi Debian-Edu/Skolelinux perfectly fits your needs. Skolelinux provides a full network solution for your school. You have a main server where your user data is stored. Then you can install a LTSP-Server to use so called Thin-Clients. These Thin-Clients are old machines. All applications are running on the LTSP. Additionally you can installed so called workstations :)
All the needed profiles are available from one CD.
Maybe you want to test a bit and see how it works. Visit
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/
and download http://ftp.skolelinux.no/skolelinux-cd/debian-edu_ sarge-i386-current.iso
Have fun with testing and enjoying Debian-Edu ;)
Greetings
Steffen
Also check out the K-12 Linux project. They have lots of info on installing and running Linux classroom workstations.
Convert all the workstations to smart terminals with Thinstation. Use a main Linux server to serve each lab/workgroup. We chose Ubuntu. This will get all the basics . . . web browsing, e-mail, and a copy of OpenOffice.
Then, if a lab needs Word, Excel, Access, or PowerPoint we use RDP and Citrix Clients to connect to MS application servers. Yes, that is what I said. These are scheduled resources. If a lab needs the applications, they get them. If a lab isn't using them, then the rest of the network can.
In the ever increasingly complex world of school computing, the costs of maintaining MS platforms are a big consideration. And, requireing mass hardware upgrades for the sake of MS apps is a thing of the past. It is just not a good use of tax-payer dollars.
If you don't believe me . . . just ask the school IT staff what they spend most of their time doing. I'll be it is cleaning up MS Windows, or upgrading hardware, or something which is only required because they use a distributed MS Windows environment. Put all the MS stuff on terminal services or Citrix and there is no more maintaining any MS Windows platforms.
And, since all the applications are served from the Linux server via GDM/XDM or whatever, the workstations just become simple devices which are displaying stuff.
Then there are, of course, those applications which require multimedia displays, sound, or direct hardware access. Well, most of that kind of stuff works through the GDM/XDM, terminal services or Citrix interfaces. But, if it doesn't, then so be it. In that case, it requires a lab specifically for that purpose. But, that will likely be a much smaller number of computers.
Unfortunately, you'll be screamed down by just about everybody else. "What? How dare you!" will pretty much sum it up. If you decide to tough it out, you need to write the words "Think of the Children!!!" on your soapbox, climb on it, and never climb down.
PS This is one of those examples where I say "I don't care if Linux gets adopted by the world or not." My kids in *my* home love it, the neighbor's kids love it, word gets around school...in 10 more years, a generation will grow up without the Borg implants - just like the pre-Borg generation, they'll be computer literate again - and then we'll see what gets adopted by whom.
Take a look at Skolelinux
'nuff said
-- Computers are not intelligent. They just think they are.
There are many reasons to leave Microsoft behind and only a few to stay with them. The brief effort required to switch to GNU/Linux will pay off handsomely over time. For schools on tight budgets, the payoff reaches break-even in a month or two. Most businesses reach break-even in a year. After that, the savings are gravy and funds can be used to expand IT or for other purposes.
I have seen many school divisions spend $30000 or more on a computer lab that could have had a ripping Linux application server and low-power thin clients for half the money. If old equipment is available for free, a school can have a first rate lab for a couple of thousand dollars for a single application server with tons of resources and no licence fees.
A problem is an opportunity http://mrpogson.com
Obviously, you don't want to go W2K3+XP (or Vista...). .edu customers more or less, so it's really about HW-cost.
But that's irrelevant.
Can't you just make a "unexaggerated" assessment of the current situation (which PCs you have, what CPU/Mem/HD) and what it would cost to upgrade to W2K3+XP (and Vista, because that's the "Next Big Thing")?
MSFT gives away the software to
Make a comparative sheet with running an OSS-environment or a mixed environment (all apps on W2K3-server, connect via rdesktop from Linux/FreeBSD clients).
Of course, *they* want XP. Believing anything else is lunacy.
If you don't want to do the XP-adventure, you can say "Goodbye" and let some other MSFT-droid do the work - as far as I've understood your wording, neither party here can force the other to go a certain route.
cheers,
Rainer
Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
First find out before you go any further whether you have any problems above you. Many crooked deals are being made with management of schools being paid off. This results in a small amount of money controlling a large payout to the briber. A relatively small, shockingly small in some cases, amount of money in a strategic bribe allows some petty bureaucrat in some bureaucracy to go home with a new plasma television while the school administration groans under a twenty to hundred thousand dollar software licensing program that they do not need. It is up to the teachers in the trenches to live with these fiascos as they have to use this poor excuse for an 'operating system' every day. Windows cannot selectively get rid of cookies in a meaningful way. Windows ports, all 65 THOUSAND of them, default to 'open come exploit me'. Windows has hidden 'default shares' named X$ (you supply the drive name as ALL drives are shared this way) that cannot be deleted nor modified (you delete them and they are back at next boot as if they ever were really deleted); and you do not have the password to these. Wanna find out personally? Share some but not all files and directories on some computers on your networked computers, then use files on other computers from other computers on your system. If you have win2K or above, sooner or later you will get a request for a password with the 'login name' already filled in as 'machinename$' or 'C$', 'D$', or whatever. There is no way you will successfully login to such a resource on YOUR OWN NETWORK....BUT YOU CAN BET THAT MICROSOFT CAN DO IT. Security aside, schools have a great deal of educational software that us very useful and of great educational value. The programs just happen to be DOS programs. They work fine with Win98se or Win2K, but start to fail in usability with XP. In the new 'Vista' system they will be unusable. Up to two thirds of software used in the primary grades is like this and would have to be replaced. Now the method of addition to compute two plus two to get 'four' has never changed, and the old DOS programs do an admirable job of assisting teashers get this across to students. The new system, however, will enforce a new purchase policy and a new license policy on schools with regard to software use, backing it up with license checking and silent informing of relevant 'intellectual property owners' for litigation/penal action.
These new programs will not be cheap, and may come with not only license checking and accounting and online registration and activation programs of their own, but usage accounting programs as well, so every time little Tommy or little Mary 'log on'(this will be strictly enforced with verifiable identification of the small users for billing purposes) then the time/usage/clickcharge routine will start until that user 'logs out'. Whole new career fields of software usage 'licensing' and usage accounting, accounts payable and accounts recievable will spring up. This nightmare of the new world of 'Vista' will bankrupt school systems that do not pass this on. While windows 'salesmen' may promise to hold off on some of the more onerous features of this new goldmine for microsoft, this will not last forever. Microsoft is the new drug pusher on the block and has found and created a legally enforcable addiction. All pushers that I have ever heard about give some free or cheap samples at first in order to create a 'market'. Once 'on board' in a windows regime, it would be very difficult to go back to the old and comfortable operating environments because the microsoft licencing demands that once 'upgraded', one ceases to be 'legally licensed' to use the old systems. That is one of the provisions of the 'EULA's that most never read. While a small homeowner can easily and undetectedly revert to his ole systems if he/she retains the CD's and documentation and 'keys', a business or a public entity cannot. They are large and on record and have sales personell assigned to look into them from time to time. If they stop consuming, they wil
The problem isn't specified well enough to allow any helpful answer other than "define the problem better, and you may answer it yourself."
We don't know where the "home village" is. "Village" doesn't sound like the United States, outside the east coast. It could be in Haiti or Cote d'Ivoire (eachhaving a GDP per capita, even adjusted upward on a PPP basis, of only around $1,500 a year, and in actual non-adjusted figures far less) rather than a US $42,000. In places like the former, $1000 is impossibly huge; in places like the other, it's mere pocket change at a private Manhattan day school.
There's no indication what, _exactly_, is meant by "educational software." I am skeptical of the very term. It can mean anything from "learn to type" programs to flashcard programs, or maybe Carmen SanDiego or The Oregon Trail. Is Sokoban "educational software"? There's no indication whether any such software is actually being used _now_ on the Windows machines, let alone what it (if anything) might be: the actual text mentions only a concern about "availability" of such a category of software on Linux, no specifics about what exactly anyone thinks is better learned via a program than from a teacher in person or better learned at a keyboard and screen than with a pencil or book.
The question does not give any explicit reason for labeling it "abhorrent" that the existing 14 PCs are Win 95/8/XPHome. Is it abhorrent because it's a sign that the school lacks money while a local police chief has a Mercedes squad car? Or for some other reason? Maybe there's a reason for using such emotional language. But with none given explicitly, the label does nothing to help inform an answer. Would it be "abhorrent" that I still have a working Win95/P1/32MBRAM notebook along with my Suse/P4/512MBRAM one and my wife's YDL/iBook366/320MBRAM one?
The question doesn't say anything consistent about the PC hardware. It hints obliquely that only some "capable" PCs, not all the PCs, could be upgraded enough to run XP Pro; but it refers to shifting "all" of them to Linux.
So we don't know the location, the economy, a budget perspective, the hardware specs, what any felt software needs are, what current software is being used to teach what specific subjects or skills, or even what exactly prompts the "abhorrent" comment. There's no indication anyone else at the school finds anything abhorrent, or has asked the questioner to help. There's no indication the kids are failing to learn any particular subject or skill. There's not even any indication what the questioner's connection to the school is; only a statement that he's not physically in the "home village" often enough to help out much. Certainly he hasn't helped provide enough facts to allow meaningful advice.
The thing that worries me most here isn't the price being expended by schools. If they want their kids to have good facilities, they should invest in their education.
The problem though, is that schools are teaching ONE company's products. How would you feel if you walked into a school and saw nothing but one company's weird books, so that kids would never know how to read anything else? Or one company's weird style of pen, so that kids would never be able to write without buying from that company? It's sickening.
There are standard, open, free, computing platforms, developed BY academia, and largely FOR academia. They can be taught without favouritism to one proprietary company, and they can be invested in so that ALL schools can gain from that one investment. If you invest those windows license fees in Free Software, you don't just get stuff for YOUR school. Instead, EVERY school benefits! Imagine how great it would be if every school had the wisdom to invest their budgets this way.
Here's one example with what MS did in Portland, Oregon schools:
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,101601,You can find many other cases where M$ went after schools. Did they sue? Maybe / maybe not. Did they threaten? youbetcha
Don't go on about "MS hate". It's called experience or brand recognition.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Go to Microsofts site look up Fresh Start License and find out if you qualify to upgrade those 95 and 98 machines to windows 2000. If they need more memory I would have to assume that some small percentage of the systems you have would have some spare parts and could be used to upgrade the working computers.
I would also play with the idea of rolling back the windows XP Home systems to Windows 2000 for the simple case that support for one OS would be a lot less of a headache than trying to support 3 or more (and XP Home in a networked enviroment is a joke).
Before you make a decision to switch to Linux, find out what apps the kids are using. What Apps the teachers are using and want to use. And lastly what OS the teachers are using at home if any.
IF they use windows at home they will expect Linux to support just about everything they bring to school to try. You will have to play either the diplomat or the Tyrant with your labs and computers. If the basic criculum(sp?) doesn't require Reader Rabbit or some other such MS programs and only requires Basic Word processing and internet access, letting the staff know that the machines will not be running misc programs they bring from home might actually work.
Just a few facts:
Actual academic cost of upgrading 100 computers is around $2,900.
Ubuntu is Debian testing (unstable).
There is plenty of missing applications that your teachers will need to use that just don't exist (yet) on linux.
Having said that I use Linux every day, but I also have Windows VMware installed.
And make sure Linux can do it. Then and only then should you proceed. The worst possible way to go about a switchover is to assume that it must or should be done, pick a distro, go through with it, and then try to make it work. To do it right:
Step 1: Find out everything they need and want to do. Everything. What software they use, and what they are trying to do with it (like are they using it as a tool to get a job done, or are they using it to teach something), how the computers work together, and so on. Make sure you have a firm grasp of what it is they expect their systems to do.
Step 2: Make sure Linux can do all that. Identify the software/services that are needed to make that happen. Make sure you get everything, don't dismiss anything as unimportant. Just because it seems unimportant to you, doesn't mean it is unimportant. Get a list of all the tools you'll need software and (if applicable) hardware wise, and a list of the things you can't do.
Step 3: Go to them with the list of things you can't do and discuss it. See if they really are unimportant, or if other ways of doing thigns can be found. Make sure that they are satisfied with the tradeoffs being made.
Step 4: Setup a couple test systems. Since the district is poor, you'll probalby have to do it on your own hardware. Make sure you get all the software up and running as needed, the systems communicating and so on. Get all the kinks worked out.
Step 5: Present the test systems to the district, and let them try it. Make sure they are satisfied that it all does work as promised, and that it'll be usable.
Step 6: Roll it out to some computers, maybe half, probably the older ones first. Don't do the whole thing in one shot in case there's some unforseen problem. Be prepared to make yourself available for a lot of support. Things that seem trivial to you won't be to them. Little things (like the start menu not being there) can confuse peopel and they'll need someone to call.
Step 7: Once it's been in place for some time and it looks like everything is working as needed, replace the rest of the systems. Again, be ready to do a lot of tech support.
At this point, it sounds like you need to be gathering requirements and determining software to use and so on. At the very least, you need to have the list of requirements drawn up before considering what distro. To decide on a distro before knowing firmly what you need to do is kinda putting the cart before the horse. First find out what you need,t hen find out what software fills that need, the you can look for the distro to best provide it.
But please, do this right. Treat it like a professional consulting job with critical equipment. Nothing I hate seeing more than a school who gets a half implement solution that's worse than what thye had beofre because the people peddling it didn't think it all the way through. Make sure you can provide what's needed, and that it'll work right, before you roll it out.
practicality of maintenance for people who are new to the OS given that I am not there regularly enough to be a full time sys admin.
Oh, but you will be, if your plan goes through. Questions like "Compiling? What's that?" come to mind immediately.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
I say go Mac!
- as-hell-xvi-final-mah.html
:(
:)
1 - There is definitely educational software.
2 - It is *nix based...so you won't be over every day.
3 - Price can be mitigated by seeking out an educational grant/donation that allows for Mac and combining that with the TCO discussed in the 'MAH' series:
http://securityawareness.blogspot.com/2005/09/mad
Due to a combination of factors, the question may otherwise become moot. Just go microsoft.
1- non techie parents wanting their kids to learn computers 'like the rest of the world' in fear of their kids 'keeping up with whats out there' [microsoft]
2- being able to submit educational technology grants to numerous foundations/institutions, [well meaning institutions don't normally care which tech solution is used but are more familiar with microsoft on the desktop/have business relationships with microsoft]
3 - generous donations from school benefactors [well meaning, but implement what everyone else is using'... Microsoft]
IMHO, Microsoft will be a non-thinking solution that will be implemented in similar circumstances.
In the primary/secondary school scene, I assume that sheer number of Microsoft 'knowledgeable' people/volunteers outnumber the *nix knowledgeable people. Due to this, a Linux solution could be implemented, but as soon as the linux person steps down/gets too busy/leaves, there is a better chance of only having a non-linux volunteer to step in and implement an easier solution (aka - with what they are more familiar). This would be more prevalent in less populated regions. (big fish/little pond)
I have seen a small parochial school in the middle of a farming community go microsoft because the retired data processing person who supports the computer lab and network now only knows one thing. It is bad enough to the point that the mention of Macs made his kid who attends the school think that Macs would make said parent loose the IT job due to not being a Mac person. I assume that the parent made comments about work around home (I know my Mom and Dad did when I was growing up.)
I have seen a parochial school in a city of about 1 million choose microsoft due to a grant/donation plus not easily finding companies/people to pay who know linux. The lab cannot wait for someone to finish work before heading over to look at the problem. Schools now have computer class scheduled as part of the daily curriculum.
I plan on helping schools more when my kids are out of day care, but for now I work second shift and my wife first shift so we can support our family.
Maybe I can start my own linux support for schools company. I would only have to work
1 - every fall to setup new clients/do a checkup&upgrade on existing clients
2 - 7:30am-3:30pm.... when the hardware breaks.
Plus - I get my summers off!!
I think having our kids learn linux would be a great idea. IMHO, as a sysadmin myself, *nix/*bsd is a much more valuable skill than windows. My daughter will grow up on a *bsd based system (probably osx, for starters) and it will, no doubt, do her more good in the long run. If we're going to send our kids to school, doesn't it make sense to educate them in a manner that will suit them later in life? Any schmo can run windows (well, no...i take that back... i know a *few* people...) but that's because it's all they know. If we start our kids out on a real operating system at a young age, don't you think it might carry over in to other parts of their life? (think, problem solving/logic/not being lazy.) I say go for it. If there's a will there's a way. if you want that learning material on there, you WILL find a way. WINE may not be the answer. Maybe it's a remote desktop connection in to a windows box. (That's a good skill to learn!) maybe it's using a web based learning system - i don't know! be imaginative! I fully support this move over to *nix! Good luck!
You could visit http://schoolforge.org.uk/, the community "Working together to unleash the power of open tools in education".
I think Linux is a superb choice for schools. There's a project in our country (Estonia) what tries to create a totally translated distro for our schools. I allready know of some schools that use Linux. In our school there is only two computers with Linux- the server and one computer that's not in the computer class. I see the use of the computer very often. I don't think people have too big problems with using Linux. It's not hard to have Linux in schools, there's allready lots of education applications, there's very many education distros. Linux is meant for schools. And if the "way of Linux" would be taught to kids, it would really help us create a better world. Children would learn collaboration, freedom, sharing and they would have a lot of applications they can use even if they don't have money. Currently 99.9% of the computer owners in our school have illegal software. They couldn't buy the Microsoft kind of software in any way. But even if a GPLed application is not free of charge, the school can give it to children free legaly! So I think Linux fits very well to schools. Be sure to check out this site: http://www.k12ltsp.org/
With the similarites between things like office suites and web browsers, the students should have little or no difficulty transitioning. Also from my experience at that elementary school, most of the educational tools the teacher's used were online. I am not sure if this was planned, or if this was because the usual software requires Windows.
It just makes sense to have Linux in the classroom; it's free, it's as easy for the end user as Windows, it requires less in hardware than Windows, and you can find a tutorial on how to do anything in Linux Online.
I had a comperable problem once. I will give you what I found and let you decide for yourself what might be a good option: MacOS: Decent selection of software, hardware costs are prohibitive for new boxes. Old boxes might be just fine for your needs though. Do you have the time, or inclination, to do the paper and leg work for transitioning to it? Does someone you know have the same? Unix (OSX, BSD, Linux etc): Can be ok on the hardware end, software end can be ok as well (cost wise): Selection and usability will depend on quite a few things: What flavour, hardware, and the developers. For instance OSX while it has a simillar issues to MacOS will have tech support that you can explain. This is not true of the free things. Does your school or your school district have a articulated donation program? If so it may consider a afiliation program for MS to get free software in exchange for you only using their OS for a xyz period of time, same is true for Apple. The major issues with the free unix's are the lack of fimilliar software- and software maintenence is tricky- to terrible. Not just the library/depencies but the politics. Debian is known for it's politics, one week Mp3's are ok next their not. Apple/Redmond don't have that particular problem. I found that it for a comperable scenario the group was hapy as a clam with old hardware, and a older versions of software. These kids played with hypercard, and typing programs. A world class teacher used games like Myst and Myth as a teaching tool. Etc. The lab nextdoor just wanted something to use as a wordprocessor so a old G3 was fine.
A year into our own experiment with Linux on the desktops at school, I can assure you that you won't regret the decision. Plus, you can always go back, right? The are numerous educational applications available- check out kde edutainment. I've found an open source equivalent for every (yep, every) application we were running. Maintenance is much easier than in a Windows environment, too. The biggest surprise was this: I expected the staff to have some difficulty with the transition. It never happened. I believe if I hadn't made them aware we were using a new OS, they would have just figured things out on their own, just like the kids did. Anyway, what have you got to lose by giving it a try?
The school district I work for is significantly larger than yours is, but we do have machines that were designed for Win98. We have a large number of P2 333 with 96 or 128MB RAM. Even these machines can run WinXP Pro. The way to do it is get a WinXP worthy machine, install and set it up the way you want. Run the sysprep utility found on the WinXP disk (search microsoft.com for sysprep to get instructions if you don't already know how to do it) and use Norton Ghost to image the lower end machines. After the ghosting is done, just upgrade the drivers for your system. It works really well and extends the life of older machines. You will need to turn off the visual enhancements and try to keep the software low (Windows, Office and a few educational software titles), but if you know what you are doing, you can get the system to run just fine even though its well under WinXP's system requirements.
Click Click Bloody Click PANCAKES!
Through Microsoft's Fresh Start program for schools, all donated PCs can get a NEW copy of Windows. For FREE (as in beer). All you have to do is prove they were donations (which I expect they were and you can) and you can get a new copy of the OS for each machine.
s hStart.asp
http://www.microsoft.com/education/FreshStart/Fre
I have setup the computers running Fedora Core 2,3,&4 at a tutoring program.
http://asianyouthservices.org/computers.html
I agree that Linux is a great choice. I choose Fedora cause it was so easy to install and update.
The K Desktop Environment (KDE) has an education suite focused on creating high-quality educational software for children ages 3 to 18. They've also developed specialized programs to aid teachers in planning lessons. Here are some of the specific programs and their targetted are of teaching:
KLatin, KVerbos, and Kiten to teach Latin, Spanish, and Japanese respectively.
KMPlot to plot mathematical functions and Kig to explore geometric constructions.
Kalzium to teach Chemistry KStars to teach astronomy.
KGeograhy to teach gegraphy KTouch to teach typing.
I would encourage you to install Kubuntu or SUSE instead, since these distros have good support for KDE.
At a nonprofit afterschool tutoring program, I have setup the computers running Fedora Core 2,3,&4.
http://asianyouthservices.org/computers.html
For the most part it works great. Once in a while there are some issues, but I can generally help them out from wherever I am, as long as I have access to the internet. I tried for the first three months to use Windows, but I couldn't keep the machines running more than 2 weeks before they were bombarded with popups and other spyware. With Linux, I was able to prevent them from running certain apps. I have it setup so they can mess with whatever settings they want, but each night, the settings are reset while keeping (and backing up) their documents. The prevents them from getting the systems in an unusable configuration. Linux can take snapshots of the screen and save it to the hard disk so the program coordinator can keep an eye on what they are doing. There was no way any of this could be done in Windows. This system has been running for about 1.5 years and pretty much the only big things I do anymore are update the machines (mainly just to get OpenOffice 2 and the new versions of Firefox) and replace broken hardware. These computers are upwards of 7 years old, so components tend to break once in a while.
The kids use Windows at school and Linux at the tutoring program and they don't seem to care much about it. It took them about a week or two to figure things out, but now they don't notice at all. I guess they do notice one thing - they aren't allowed to run any chat program, but that is the directors choice.
I would highly suggest giving Linux a try.
I'll admit I haven't read through all the posts, but know a little about small school budget constraints. I think the first question to ask is: what software are they currently using, and is there a Linux distro that includes replacements for most, if not all of these? If the school district has paid some significant amount for software to record and process student grades, for example, and no replacement offering similar functionality exists in Linux, the question of OS is moot.
That said, what is the purpose of the technology in your environment or (for the other comment writers) for education in general? I've read through all of the comments, and many are framed as if the technology were the main focus of education. From my reading of the question and my own experiences, technology is the tool to facilitate the education, not the focus of the education itself. Students will learn technology skills through their use of the tools, but the tools are a means to an end, not an end unto themselves. [So you will know where I am coming from, I am a techie by day and a part time tech educator by night, so I do understand the value of technical education.]
Would I hope that children learn about technology through their exposure to it? Absolutely. In the end, will it matter whether that exposure is through Windows, Linux, or Mac? Not if the children are educated about their technology, rather than being given a set of buttons to push...
One comment cited an instructor who was teaching children to find the Internet by clicking the "blue E" icon. While I understand such oversimplification at one level, that's the type of thinking about technology that really impedes users in the real world. As a support person, I want users who become familiar with their computing environment, users who will read dialog boxes and shortcut names, users who will ask questions, users who will try to understand their technology. Instead of teaching a child that a "blue E" equals Internet, the child may educated to understand the concept more than the procedure of clicking an icon. Imagine the teacher saying this:
Should students be presented information in this manner, they learn that they need an Internet browser to view information on the Internet. Then, when they graduate to an environment different than the one they knew (the one with the "blue E"), they should be able to look at the user interface and ask themselves not "Where is the blue E?", but "Where is the Internet browser?"
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
...is pretty cool, in my opinion.
Just my two cents.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
If I were you, I'd go for Edbuntu, but before you go and install it on all the sytems, please check that it works on one system properly.
Product page http://www.edubuntu.org/
Tour http://www.edubuntu.org/tour.html
there is a bunch of software available to teach these kids on Edbuntu
I am the sys admin/webmaster for my church on campus (UT Arlington) and we have a small network setup with 4 computers (2 WinXP/2 SuSE 9.1) no one can tell (except the CS majors)
for the teachers just replace the OOo icon with a Word icon and replace firefox icon with that ugly blue 'e'
I love random hex numbers! Just like this one, 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
This kind of response not surprising at all. The problem is there are many windows admins out there who *FEAR* linux. They don't understand computers at all. But they do know how to sell windows and how to reinstall it. Change the platform and they have no job. I have seen it time and time again. They will not accept that linux is easy cheap and extremely powerful only because it is a threat to them.
I work in a UK secondary school (Ages 11-17) running 250+ machines for about 800 users. So far, we've replaced all the servers with new hardware and Red Hat Enterprise 4 at £35 a server.
First of all, we set up a test network and checked things out to make sure it'd do everything we needed. Funnily enough it does, but the client side really is a pain in the arse. OpenOffice is up to it without a doubt, Gimpshop is going to be trialled by the art department starting next week and we're trying other stuff on Wine to see what will run and what won't in order to determine whether it's worth carrying on or not.
The only other option we've really considered is to set up a Windows Terminal Server and use rdesktop to access apps that we really can't run any other way. That way we'll only need to maintain one Windows setup, the Linux boxes being a boxed set with the auto update enabled.
Ultimately though you'll find that the software providers are your biggest enemy like the examination organisation that provides you software that requires SQL server. The kids have to take exams. You therefore have to have the software and hence Windows.
Hopefully, if enough people hack their way into running Windows apps on Linux, the providers may realise that there is a market out there. Alternatively they may then see no point in developing Linux specific versions until Vista comes along and DRMs WINE out of the equation.
Long term it may be worth setting up a curriculum oriented community project but it really would have to be co-ordinated so you don't end up with an abundance of one kind of app and a famine of others.
Hard life innit?
Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
If the goal is to teach children how to use computers for the future wouldn't
it be better to use both Linux and Windows? I have done consultations at a
few different schools some are using SafeDesk which is a thin client Linux setup.
They seem to learn quite a lot from using both types of systems. Linux is not
going anywhere for quite some time. Set up the old boxes that won't run XP with
Linux, and upgrade everything else to XP. Give them the best of both worlds.
On a similar note, one time I made a bunch of money by selling a bunch of sun-ray thin clients purchased by some district authority for the local school system. He bought 16 of the clients on grant money from cisco, not knowing that you needed a sun server to operate them (actually I heard there is a free linux based sun-ray server these days). I acted as a third party in finding a new purchaser for the units when they realized they had no use for them. It was probably around 6-10 thousand dollars worth of machines, I bought them for $25 each and sold them for $125. You bet your ass the current system is inefficient. Before I sold them, I tried to track down the guy who had made the bad purchasing decision, I was ready to show him the free linux sun-ray server that had recently come out, maybe set up a sun-sponsored program or something interesting like that, and I was basically told by some desk jockey to quit asking questions and to go away.
A school is a place for coming together and participating with one another for the sake of education.
This definitely fits the idealogy and goals of Windows better than Linux.
http://www.novell.com/news/press/item.jsp?contenti d=1b969adfd1695010VgnVCM1000000100007f____
Whatever Distro...
Maybe you should track down counterparts in the Hoosier State
Hmm, just like a drug dealer..
"here, the first one is free.."
Computers are like Old Testament gods; lots of rules and no mercy.
Why not start with requirements, prioritise them and review the resources you have available to you as a starting point - get your requirements together. Try starting with the teaching staff pedagogical goals - help the teaching staff think about what their best practices are in interacting with computers when teaching. How are computers used and where are they placed? Next - what software do they currently use (not the titles but the broader areas) and what do they want in future - push they to understand how these software relates to their teaching and the students learning styles? How does software support the overall classroom - what are the actual software requirements? Think about the effect of what you will implement - what will be the reaction of any change on teachers and students - how much time will they have to spend learning the new technology? Lastly - any technology needs to work - what resources are available to keep your environment running, what money do you have to spend on all of support, software, OS and hardware. Can you support any given scenario (with your available resource - a salary is usually much more expensive that the cost of any given OS). What value do the administrative and teaching staff see in the computer enviroment (often very little thought is put into how they value this environment as part of their overall teaching strategy). ...now you can go out and look at what will be the best system for you, there are great educational titles at the K-12 level for both Windows and Linux, but choose something that fits your schools needs rather than any stereotype of "what's best, Windows or Linux". In a subject as important as educating your children, worry about delivering the end goal in the most effective way and concentrate on the most important areas first.
Hate to break it to you but the kids will be mastering in matter of hours whatever you put on the machines be it KDE, Gnome, Fluxbox, OS X or whatever. It makes no difference to them, so why not use something that's less expensive to acquire, support, install and operate?
KDE, Gnome or what ever windowing manager the kids will be interacting with are so easy now that to them it's just a computer. Ask a kid using a 'linux' computer and he/she won't know what you are talking about. To them it's a computer. It's got icons and you click on the icons and the programs run. If they notice any difference it'll usually be that they'll point away from the legacy machines running XP towards the Linux boxes and say, "those over there are faster, we're waiting for them to finish."
Even for users already familiar with one of the MS-Windows variants, KDE is as easy to use as MS Windows XP. Or hard, if you want to look at it that way instead.
The "piracy" bit is a red herring anyway.
Given the bizarre license tracking requirements and very unusual methods of providing proof of valid licenses, it is darn near impossible to be in full compliance. How about at your site, assuming you still have a few legacy systems with MS? Where are all the hologrammed license certificates? Did they get filed in the fire safe with the receipts or did they fade away into the 'IT' deptartment, never to be seen again, because the bean counters figure a CD jacket is a CD jacket. In short, if you're running MS, you're running the risk of a BSA / FAST raid.
Save your money and get a few more years out of the old hardware at the same time by running LTSP or one of the Linux or BSD distros.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Also there is the issue that teachers and staff need some sort of software to do record keeping on the students. This could be used for tracking grades, assignments, health statistics, shot schedules (e.g. the flu), and allows the ability to send these things directly to your corresponding state headquarters...unless you want to do it by hand.
A favorite in the upper midwest region is JMC Inc for this record keeping. Currently they support Windows AND MacOS. As interests rise though there will be a greater push for Linux software as well. They told me once that they have one version that DOES support Linux but it hasn't been finalized to be released.
What does everyone else use for record keeping software? Windows AND Linux?
students are young and have minds like sponges.. why oooh why bleed microsofts propaganda that virus's, spyware, MONEY, defragmenting and wasted time is a natural way to run your computer? me -12 years old, i got a brand spankin new p2 266mhz 64mb and quantum bigfoot 6gig hd with windows 95 preinstalled -13 years old, upgraded to 98, lost a very important assignment for school because of windows crashing -14 years old, discovered a piece of free (as in speech) software called slackware and started controling the computer instead of the other way around.. im not alone either... these "children" wont always fall for what they see behind the window glass..
Although it almost pains me to say it, I'd think that some of the computers should be left running Windows. After all, it is a school situation, so my guess is that the point of the computers is to familiarize the students with them. Since the vast majority of computers they'll work with in the near-future will be running Windows, they should certainly be exposed to it. Of course, since children tend to learn new skills rather quickly, it would probably also be beneficial to introduce them to Linux. Later, if they need to use a Mac (for example), they'll probably figure out how to use it much quicker than someone who'd only used Windows. Perhaps Linux could be installed on the older computers and Windows left on the newer ones. If the Windows machines have the processor cycles to spare, run a local firewall (restricting traffic based on port and origin/destination) and perhaps something like System Safety Monitor to keep unauthorized programs from running. With these two safeguards, I have my doubts as to whether a virus scanner or spyware detector would be necessary (assumming IE and Outlook aren't used and the students don't have admin rights). Software might be a concern, but teaching the children to use a "Word Processor" rather than just "Microsoft Word 2000" would probably also be beneficial. As for other educational software, I'm not familiar enough with it to comment one way or the other.
Dont just force it appon them. You might what to set up workshops for people to learn the new system. And dont just rapidly force the new system on them, phase it out slowly.
I don't know which school system you're familiar with, but here in California, the money that should go to the classroom is being wasted. Given the amount we spend, we should be able to buy every kid a laptop running Windows XP Pro. Take a look at "A Modest Proposal for Saving Our Schools" for an analysis of why our educational system isn't "cash strapped." I suspect those of most other states aren't either.
If the teachers aren't on board it's going to be a disaster. The teachers need to understand the system in order to teach it. You may have to teach them so that they can in turn teach the kids but if they don't want to switch then you're stuck. Chances are they won't want to switch simply to save you a few and who can blame them. You'll have to make a compelling educational argument rather than just a budgetary one.
"robust" not "rhobust". You need to ask your Edubuntu using kids for help more often...
Teachers, at least when I was in grade school, were too busy and in some cases dare I say stupid, to learn how to use new programs and operating systems. I remember the hell incured in my Senior year when my high school switched from ancient Apple hardware to bleeding edge Pentium 3 DELL machines with Windows 98. The attendance system worked maybe 2 out of 3 days in the week, teachers spent half their time figuring out how to use their grade books and students were constantly fscking the machines up, because the school did not have a decent PC system administrator. Granted, any two-bit hack could use the Windows XP policy editor to restrict priviliges, but this was Windows 98 we were talking about, and a school that had always used Macintosh systems.
Given quality applications for attendance, grading and E-Mail I do not think the platform matters too much. But switching to a new platform without thoroughly educating the teachers beforehand is a recipie for disaster. School children will learn whatever system you put in front of them, so they are not so much the issue.
It's much more suited as a desktop for Linux newbies than Ubuntu, IMHO (and I recently saw an article saying the same thing).
I don't have any experience with Edubuntu, but I recently tried Kubuntu, and it was a disaster (broken mirrors, corrupted packages that I had to manually clear out of the cache to get it working again, horrible hardware detection, impossible to make the NVidia drivers work on, several crashes per day).
I'd recommend PCLinuxOS too if it were a little more mature, but it still has quite a few rough edges. But way better than Kubuntu.
Then why don't you spend the time and resources to teach the students and teachers how to use this software, because that's part of what MS does. I mean, if you really are so worried then your time must be worth it.
-]Phreak Out[-
Now, I can understand why 90% of the computers in my school run windows, in the media center, labs, and classrooms, but the few others confound me. Why, for example, do the four computers in the lunch room run windows? I would never have suspected that they run windows, as I've only ever seen one screen (the lunch account system), and there is a resteraunt-style keyboard instead of a standard one, but these computers were shut down on febuary third as a precautionary mesure... I asked my computer science teacher and she confirmed that they run windows 98. These computers have only ever run one program, yet in every school in the county my parents are paying for two to four copies of windows to run ONE program. The same is true of the library check-out computer, and probably more I don't even know about. This seems to me a waste of money, unless someone can point out a good reason?
Does a line appended to your comment give your post meaning in and of itself, or only in relation to those without?
We run Linux at home, w/ Suse on the desktop machine. Suse comes w/ a LOAD of games: arcade,puzzle, educational, and otherwise. My 7 year old son loves browsing through them and trying them out. He hasn't even gotten to all of them yet.
On top of that there are great emulators like mame, GBA, etc, etc, etc.
On top of that WINE is mature. All my son's M$ PC programs now run under WINE. Linux is more convenient for him than M$ windows: I rip the CD to an ISO file on disk, mount that, and have wine use it. No more insert the stupid CD to do language lessons. He just clicks a button and goes.
Where and how FOSS can be used, why it should be used and what issues are involved. There are introductions to educational software such as Moodle learning management system and pointers to other software resources from primary school to university level. It also covers basic infrastructure (emails, network) and open content.
"What would the esteemed Slashdot readers think of shifting all these machines to a Linux distro" Pretty sure you could have gone without posting and still known exactly what those at /. would think of replacing any MS OS with any distro of Linux. Heck, I certainly knew before I ever started reading comments.
I am Homer of Borg. Resistance is Fut.. Mmmmmmmm, Donuts!
About a year ago many public schools in Germany were equiped with a Linux running server. It was mainly supposed to provide Internet access with webfiltering and fileserving to all of the school's windows based computers.
Problem was, none of the teachers know how to use them or have the time to administer them, and of course there isn't enough money to employ an admin. Sure, they were sent to a seminar on Linux administration, but that was just an eight hour lecture - not nearly enough.
Of course these servers kept breaking down, so often in fact that more and more schools stop using them - so now there are a bunch of expensive Xserves rotting in some dark corner of those school's CS labs :(
Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
Ever since I can remember, I've had windows pounded into me at school. I'm currently a 11th grade AP Computer Science student at my local public high school. Now I know from being to several board meetings and talking to several tech guys from our district's tech office, that due to liscensing costs for Windows, we are unable to afford upgrades for our current hardware or even to buy addittional computers when we're so desperatly in need of them. Our windows servers are constantly failing and whenever I see one of our tech support guys, they're always doing eith A) Spyware Removal B) Virus Removal C) Complete system overhaul from students randomly gaining access higher then what they should have, to files they shouldn't have. Wouldn't Linux solve alot of these issues above? If introduced like I was at age 5 to computers in school, (Windows 3.1), I'm sure they would inherently grasp the usability of a Linux Based OS. It works in the same point-and-click way for normal, non root users essentally the same as windows. Open Office is nearly the same as MS Word in many of its features. We finally don't have to worry about students not having the correct programs for projects, either. The school can simply pass out a free LiveCD for student use at home, eliminating alot of the headaches that come from "I don't have that program". As for letter C, The way in which linux is setup wouldn't allow for this to happen. Normal users won't be able to access root files, let alone delete them from the PC. This in turn saves alot of work with our tech guys.
Warning: Corny karma killing post above.
We switched our computers over to Linux over about 4 years ago, and I'm very happy with the switch, both as a teacher and the system administrator. As others have said, making such a switch should not be done without some serious thought and research.
I invite you to visit our school's website at http://www.ghca.com/computers to learn more about our own experiences with Linux (the page includes links to two articles I published regarding our switch). Please feel free to contact me if you have any specific questions!
Mike - aka "Old Duck"
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Try looking at SafeDesk Solutions, they do a lot of work with schools. They are a Suse Based company that does thin clients.
You didn't say you were in the US, but my US experience in involvement with primary school and computers suggests that contracting a deadly disease might be preferable unless you're really into rejection. The mix, age, and vendor of the OS in your current computer lab may be personally offensive to you, but my guess is that the kids are getting done what they need to get done. Are the kids going to be smarter running a program on Edubuntu than on Windows 95? The biggest difference probably will be that the programs supported by your school district will be way harder to run and support in Linux than their native Windows. It's unlikely that anybody at the school wants to be a Computer Expert. They just want to run a program with the minimum amount of cost and work, which is why the computer lab is the way it is. After you revamp it, everything will be the same as it was (but technologically way cooler, of course), but then you'll be the only one who understands it, you'll be getting the calls every time there's a problem, and anyone who didn't agree with the decision will be ready to throw rocks at you on convenient occasions.
I know from experience that educational institutes 'steer like asteroids'. There are however people inside almost every one of them pushing for something different. Here in NZ the DHBs District health boards are a projecting saving millions$ buy switching basic office functions to open office. For schools there has been the deal signed to get cheaper suse for schools http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39209666,00.htm
But what really sways things is when and evile right wing publication like the national business review doesn't rubbish the idea.
http://www.nbr.co.nz/home/column_article.asp?id=12 417&cid=3
**NBR is like NZs print version of Fox (they even try to monkey with elections)
And lastly, once linux machines are setup correctly a single part timer can maintain them. I know someone who did so with a small country school of 600.
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by. Douglas Adams
I'd say you'd do the children much better service by installing Solaris 10 on those computers.
That way, not only can they learn UNIX the way it was meant to be learned (System V Release 4 and POSIX), but those interested to continue will have excellent predispositions to become certified Solaris administrators some day.
And we all know that Solaris skillz = good job security and a nice salary.
Plus, the kids will get to play with the most advanced operating environment on the planet, which happens to be free and open source.
Everybody wins.
Being a parent of 2 computer savvy kids, one 8 the other 5, I would say that the best bet is to go with what they are most likely to encounter at home. Sure, I have a linux machine that I play on but both my kids use Windows Machines and have learned their skills on these. I would bet that 90% or better of the kids parents at this school have a Windows PC at home. While learning how to use Linux is a great benefit - it is not really necessary unless you are going to work in a computer related field. Now, I'm not assuming that these kids are going to learn Linux at the school PCs - Most likely, they will simply run software to help them count and spell. Last time I looked there were about 10000+ windows titles to linux titles in this genre of software. Have the parents help raise funds for new PCs (it's their kids that will benefit!) and get the community involved. Getting 20 Windows XP PCs will not break the bank. Check out the TAX CREDIT policy in your state. A tax credit is a great way to donate to a school - you pay up to $1,500 to a school of your choice and get the whole lot back the following year when you do your taxes.
Steal the windows software, id like to see microsoft try to sue little children. Linux is nice, but let children learn on windows first since it will be what they are going to use.
Hi, I'm quite excited to see this. If you do manage, PLEASE try to get it in the news, as this will help convince the administration of many other schools. Anyway, I would suggest Kubuntu 5.10 desktops with the Edubuntu educational suite installed. If it were me, I'd get it running on one of the oldest/slowest computers and then just image it to the newer ones. Also, if it were me, I'd set up my own apt repository at the school (each piece of software perhaps screened to be working suitably before going into the repository). Then, at 3:00 on Sunday mornings (or at another time when the network is totally unused), have a cron job update/upgrade from the server. I really hope that you succeed, and good luck!
I really wanted to change my sig to something witty, but all I could come up with is this.
Linux=democrats
:) Be careful what you wish for. If and when linux becomes a contender for the desktop, it will encounter the same issues that microsoft encountered, users that click before they think.
Windows=republicans
MacOS=french
I wish people would drop the self serving BS for good. Like a politician, supporters of either side make claims they can not prove about their opponent and make promises they will never deliver.
Linux costs less then Windows. At first glance it does. Add support (by support I mean a single year of windows update for linux and a few weeks of email support) to a commercial linux distro and you are paying half as much as you would on windows for the privilege of not being able to run 90% of the software you might need to some day. But, I guess if everyone switched to linux then all of the software developers would have to create software for Linux. So would all of the virus and spyware coders
Windows biggest problem is that it made things too easy. You can do a lot on Windows without knowing much about computers, and you can do bad things just as easy as you can do good things. A linux admin has to know a good deal more about his OS than a a windows admin just to be able to get it installed and running well. This knowledge will hopefully make him a better admin than the windows admin that can put a cd in a drive and click next a couple dozen times.
I am speaking from my experience of using and developing on linux for three years from 2001-2004. I am sure things have changed, but I have moved to relying on windows for my needs and have not regretted it one second. I really wish someone would do a head to head comparison of a commercial distro of linux and windows 2003. I am sick of hearing how the latest release of linux is so much better than windows 98. Grab a copy of linux code from 98 and install it on a system and try to tell me it makes a better desktop than windows 98.
My main point is that you cannot say that one system is always better than another. Look at all of the other factors before making a decision or recommendation. If that makes your head hurt, then maybe you need to change career fields. A windows admin worth his weight can create a windows only environment that will have a lower total cost, be completely secure, and capable of doing 100 more things than one based solely on linux.
My advice to someone looking for help when making a business decision, and a school is run like a business, don't rely on the opinions of geeks. They know technology good enough to consider themselves geeks, but there is a reason why so many of the tech companies failed. The geeks trying to run them did not understand the difference between reality and virtual reality.
how about you prepare them for the real world, instead of the fantasy "linux will rule the desktop market one day, i know it" world you live in? teaching kids ubuntu, and then having them switch to "normal" desktop systems after leaving your little village is just going to turn them off. if you need to jam linux down their throats at such an early age like big tobacco does (get em young!), so it as an after school "linux club". unless you really don't give two shits about the kids themselves, and just want to have an excuse post back later about how cool you are... then do whatever you want. i imagine you will anyway.
It stands to reason that some amount of the teaching will be using the actual computer, rather than just the specific software in question. It would probably behoove the students to be exposed to both OS's. When I was in school, way way back in the 80s, we had Commodores, Apples, and PCs, and everybody managed to learn each just fine.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
I used multiple operating systems. I've used many operating systems, and considering that I am only a junior in high schook, I think I have a high level of knowledge of computers just from what I learned from using unix and linux since I was very young. Exposing them to linux is one of the best things you could do for them.
I teach physics at a community college, and my lab classes are in a room with 6 school-supplied Windows boxes, plus 2 Linux boxes that I supplied and maintain myself ($150 Fry's machines). My students have had zero problems using Gnome or KDE -- they look so much like Windows that a lot of them don't even realize it's not windows. They make graphs using OOo on Windows, and using OOo on Linux, and they hardly know the difference. For young kids, there probably are issues with the educational software not being available on Linux. For me, at the college level, the main problem has been reluctance or outright opposition from the IT folks, who are wedded to Windows.
Find free books.
My dad is the tech admin for a small sized school district and I've helped him set up a Linux Terminal Server Project system for the libraries in the high school and elementary school. Once its up and running it works really well. The best thing is that you can lose the hard drives in the clients, and manage everyhting from one point. Only problem is that you need a mildly decent server. I believe this project is now compatible with Edubuntu, but we used Fedora.
That's a fallacious argument. In other words, it's illogical, and doesn't make sense.
Also, MS does it because they get money FROM the schools as a result. With that money, schools can buy their own educators, whom they've CHOSEN based on merit, rather than monopoly.
Finally, you know nothing about me; I invest plenty of time in helping people to use Free Software.
MS has to be suffering severely from Thailand breaking its "one price 'round the world" policy. Not only have the prices dropped in many countries, anyone that's not getting a 60% discount beyond that isn't even trying. Many places are pushing 90% and beyond. There has to be some really 'creative' bookkeeping going on at MS HQ because they can't keep giving away their cash cow year after year.
However, the lock-in has become far worse, and those that do give in will find it that much harder to threaten to leave MS later on when their next license negiotiation takes place.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
with what time? the time i save from not having to defragment ;)
off topic i know but just felt like sharing
.....your homework! You need to find out what software there using and why...then look at if they can be mirgated onto linux. If not, can anything be done to make it happen? There is a lot more work involed in doing this properly and I would place money you will get a lot of grief at the start, it might work out long term, but you really need to study what the school uses.
I have large numbers of old machines as well (as do many of my KY cohorts). If your machine is old enough for Win95, it is going to struggle with Ubuntu or any other GUI based Linux system. What we have found usefull is a blend of the two OS's in what is called the PXES project.
You will need one really good Linux-using teenager, the PXES project documentation on the Web (or our website www.easternhs.org), one Server from Retrobox.com with 800+ Mz and two processors and 2G+ RAM (we used a Dell PowerEdge for $395), and a slew (30-40)of old PI, PII, PIII machines with 32M RAM and 2G HDDs, and Windows 2003 Server (which is inexpensive at State Schoolboard prices).
Basically you are going to create a non-GUI Linux boot out of the hard drive (from PXES) and it will go over and (acting like CITRIX) go over an pick up an image from the Server and run it on the thin-client PI or PII Machine. These will boot very quickly and you will have a whole room or two or three of nice Windows 2003 machines with whatever you put on them (office or open office or whatever). It works quite nicely and is very inexpensive and gives you a tool so that kids (k-12) can use a tool that is in the business world.
I hope that this helps.
By the way, we paid for all of this with LAN Parties that we run in our gym a few times a year. Our Student Service organization is called STLP (Student Technology Leadership Program). Also, our school is a recycling center for old machines from companies who no longer have to pay Dell or someone $7 a box to take their PII's and PIIIs. We get 40 or so a month, and bring them in as parts (not inventory!). they are parts/instructional materials because the kids are learning by reshaping them into stations for schools, clubs, loaners, community groups.
Scott Horan, Louisville KY