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Walt Mossberg Reviews Ubuntu
sciurus0 writes "Mainstream technology journalist Walt Mossberg recently reviewed an Inspiron 1420N with Ubuntu installed by Dell. Citing problems such as an oversensitive touchpad and poor multimedia support, he suggests that 'from the point of view of an average user, someone who wouldn't want to enter text commands, hunt the Web for drivers and enabling software, or learn a whole new user interface' Ubuntu isn't a good choice compared to Windows or OS X."
There are going to be some problems with the OS. The question that I have, are these things that a user can overcome? In the long run, will Ubuntu (or any linux) become more stable then some M$ OS?
It sounds like the man has forgotten what a problem it used to be to install Windows NT, 95, 98, 2000...hunting for drivers, reconfiguring everything, trying to get your desktop out of 640x480x8....Windows XP has matured and hardware is well supported, but it's only been that way since 2002 or so. I'd say for hardware support Ubuntu is way ahead of where Win2k was in 2000 or 2001.
12:50 - press return.
Citing problems such as an oversensitive touchpad and poor multimedia support, he suggests that 'from the point of view of an average user, someone who wouldn't want to enter text commands, hunt the Web for drivers and enabling software, or learn a whole new user interface' Ubuntu isn't a good choice compared to Windows or OS X.
My wife has a Dell laptop and while the touchpad isn't sensitive the little nodule in the middle of the keyboard is while running XP! She doesn't use either of those though, she uses an external mouse so I guess neither matters to her.
Everyone with any sense knows that Linux isn't a great choice compared to Windows or OS X for those that don't want to learn a new UI (or anything else he said) as I've discussed here numerous times before to the pro-Linux troll mods' joy. Linux is a great option if you're not interested in additional cost, vendor lock-in, and attempts by a corporation to invade your personal privacy and choice due to their licensing allowances while covering it up with vague non-sense.
I will continue to run Windows and OS X on my desktop machines until any of the Linux distributions mature enough to match what's available on the Windows platform (which will probably never come unfortunately) and I will continue to trust Linux as my network server -- happily chugging along for years at a clip without as much as a hiccup.
Linux (Xorg, really) does configure touchpads to be too sensitive and some things still can't be configured graphically, but the fact that Dell is willing to sell a computer with Linux is a big step. It isn't perfect, but it is getting there. Frankly, reviews like his are what Linux really needs. Linux isn't deficient, but when people point out these things, it tells us "oh, maybe we can set more user-friendly defaults for touchpads in the xorg.conf - or create a small front end to edit them".
These reviews will only make Linux stronger.
Mossberg isn't just dumping on Linux or open source. He generally likes the idea of OSS:
Rather, he notes some average-user-level problems with Ubuntu (simple things like video, audio, and mouse issues). He's talking about usability by people who don't read Slashdot and are not related to (or dating) someone who DOES read Slashdot.
Of course, he still thinks that "the Apple iMac as the best consumer desktop computer on the market." And we all know the iMac is horrible to use and support!
$nice = $webHosting + $domainNames + $sslCerts
He may be a Windows user, but he's also a much respected reviewer. Let's stop the attack and look carefully at his points and address them if necessary. How about a 'Getting Started' tutorial for new users to learn the UI and differences between Windows and Gnome?
His article was pretty well balanced and calm.
My brother is a semi-techie who's always been interested in Linux. I realized that for the past few years, I've always been pretty sure that the *next* release of Ubuntu would be just what he's looking for. But...
The ACPI and driver issues just never seem to really go away. Doing an "apt-get upgrade" doesn't always leave the system in a 100% functional state. Etc. So I'm starting to think that Linux distros will rarely or never have the same degree of polish that Apple, and in some ways M$, achieve.
Will I ever be able to recommend Linux to a semi-/non-techie without reservation? I'm starting to wonder.
System / Preferences / Mouse
There's no helping people who can't figure that out.
The hardcore Linux proponents can deny it all they want, the simple fact of the matter is that when the average user sits down with a Linux box, there are still numerous shortcomings that may make it unacceptable.
I've said it elsewhere, I've said it here; licensing MP3 would be a good start for Ubuntu. They can certainly afford it, and the US MP3 patents are only valid until 2012, so it'd cost at most $250,000 to essentially get permanent MP3 support.
Ubuntu Linux offers so many more opportunities for users to actually get work done rather than fiddle with Vista's weird menus-nested-in-menus Start menu. Add to that the application support of the FSF and other OSS organizations, and the stability and usability of Debian, and the coolness factor of using Linux while all your friends are using Winblows, it's hard to see how you'd garner any benefit running Vista or XP even.
I'd venture to say that if Ubuntu doesn't take over the desktop this year, that next year will definitely be the year of Ubuntu Linux. C'mon, have you even tried it? It's AWESOME.
That's all the complaints the author has. Not bad, I have seen Windows users with a lot more.
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
...the truth hurts. :P
My humor is probably your flamebait
I think his point is that he shouldn't have had to.
How about someone that doesn't want to search for good AntiSpyware solutions?
Of course he didn't. Dell doesn't ship those. Read the article, he's reviewing as shipped by Dell.
Dell needs to take these things in steed. If Mossberg's criticisms are valid - which they seem to be - then Dell isn't far off from having a system perfectly reccomendable to 'non-techies'. Perhaps then Dell can compete with those preinstalled Ubuntu laptops non-techies do seem to find great out-of-the-box.
He is right on the money for main stream usage. As much as linux has improved, it still has a lot of uphill lifting to do.
Keep working on that install, and perhaps instead of having to type in the command for something. Distribute an ICON ON THE DESKTOP that installs the media copy righted stuff so newbie users can watch CNN etc...
He is correct. Linux is still too hard for say your 50+ year old mother to install. Not impossible, but people are like water, they take the path of least resistance every time.
I run ubuntu and I agree that it may not be ready for the MAC OS type of guys( Try installing compiz-fusion), but Linux is fun and I am installing it whenever I see a need.. So who is Walt Mossberg ?
Linux still is a little rough around the edges and I'll be first to admit that, but it's an uphill battle when you are fighting a virtual monopoly, who has all the cooperation it needs with hardware vendors. I will say that Ubuntu has accomplished a lot. Linux in general has accomplished a lot as well, since I started using it. Of course after a week working with Vista objectively I am not very impressed. It's obvious that this release was all about revenue and not innovation. I would keep in mind that the guy that wrote this article is a grandpa. ;-)
Well, he can't really hope to use an open, free operating system while expecting proprietary, non-free codecs to be distributed with the installation image. If said multimedia had open-source codecs, that would be different, but it doesn't.
He didn't even mention Automatix or Easy Ubuntu at all.
With good reason. First of all, Dell does ship them. And Automatix, at least, is still crap: http://mjg59.livejournal.com/77440.html
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
I've read loads of these columns, where tech writers try to be an 'average' user, and then complain about what they think might be difficult to use in Ubuntu. IMO these are worthless.
What we really need to see are some real Linux noobs to be given Ubuntu, and then an assessment of how they get on over a period of hours, days or weeks as they try to go about their business, given their background knowledge and the support services that are typically available. Would be harder to do I suppose, and would have the disadvantage of not knowing what the results would be before starting.
The reason is that the average computer use does not do ipods or cameras. They are simply surfing, email, etc. It is the power users, and above average computer users, that are doing the rest. My father has actually converted a number of old win31, win95, 97, NT, win2000 users to Suse and now Kubuntu, and they are staying with it. The ones that will not are those that are currently using OSX, XP or vista who will not convert easily. The reason is that they needed the most current OS BECAUSE they are power users.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
"First of all, Dell does not ship them"
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
Anything not working is a legitimate complaint. Period.
It doesn't matter if the issues are legal or technological; if something doesn't work, it's an issue.
I would love the average user to be technically savvy enough to install and use Linux, any distro. It would eliminate a lot of problems we all face. The technically savvy user would be able to keep their equipment cleaner from mal-ware and would be a lot more vocal about quality control of software products.
These kind of articles are what the Linux community needs. We need to have non-enthusiasts evaluate the distro, and then correct the problems. It's amazingly easy to get into the habit of understanding that an issue, or a kludge exists, work around it, and have it become so ubiquitous that we forget it's even there.
On the other hand, if we want to remain the elite minority, it's easy. Flame these kinds of articles and ignore the wants and needs of the non-elite majority. We'll stay Elite, holier than them, and a minority.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
This column is written for mainstream, nontechie users of digital technology. These folks aren't necessarily novices, and they aren't afraid of computers. They also aren't stupid. They simply want their digital products to operate as promised, with as little maintenance and hassle as possible.
Isn't this a contradiction?
So, I have steered away from recommending Linux, the free computer operating system that is the darling of many techies and IT managers, and a challenger to Microsoft's dominant Windows and Apple's resurgent Macintosh operating system, OS X. Linux, which runs on the same hardware as Windows, has always required much more technical expertise and a yen for tinkering than average users possess.
Isn't this biased and patronizing? And is there proof of the last claim? I can set up most Linux distros such that a user needs no knowledge at all of Unix. How is that different from OS X?
Lately, however, I've received a steady stream of emails from readers urging me to take a look at a variant of Linux called Ubuntu, which, these folks claimed, is finally polished enough for a mainstream user to handle. My interest increased when Dell began to sell a few computer models preloaded with Ubuntu instead of Windows.
Translation: I'm going to stomp all over you so stop bugging me.
I've been testing one of those Dell Ubuntu computers, a laptop called the Inspiron 1420N. I evaluated it strictly from the point of view of an average user, someone who wouldn't want to enter text commands, hunt the Web for drivers and enabling software, or learn a whole new user interface. I focused on Ubuntu and the software programs that come bundled with it, not on the hardware, which is a pretty typical Dell laptop.
How can he claim to be something he's not?
My verdict: Even in the relatively slick Ubuntu variation, Linux is still too rough around the edges for the vast majority of computer users. While Ubuntu looks a lot like Windows or Mac OS X, it is full of little complications and hassles that will quickly frustrate most people who just want to use their computers, not maintain or tweak them.
Again, lets enumerate what those are Walt? We'll get to those later.
Before every passionate Linux fan attacks that conclusion, let me note that even the folks who make and sell Ubuntu agree with it. Mark Shuttleworth, the South African-born founder of the Ubuntu project, told me this week that "it would be reasonable to say that this is not ready for the mass market." And Dell's Web site for its Ubuntu computers warns that these machines are for "for advanced users and tech enthusiasts."
What does where he comes from have anything to do with it?
So, what do I mean when I say Ubuntu is too rough around the edges for average users? Here are some examples.
Yeah here comes some steaming piles of rational!
There is no control panel for adjusting the way the touch pad works, and I found it so sensitive that I was constantly launching programs and opening windows accidentally by touching the thing. Every time the computer awoke from sleep, the volume control software crashed and had to be reloaded.
Isn't this Dell's issue? Even under Windows, Dell tunes their OEM install.
When I tried to play common audio and video files, such as MP3 songs, I was told I had to first download special files called codecs that are built into Windows and Mac computers. I was warned that some of these codecs might be "bad" or "ugly."
Well, what does Free mean to you Walt?
To get the computer to recognize my Kodak camera and Apple iPod, I had to reboot it several times. When it did find the iPod, it wasn't able to synchronize with it. Playing videos was a bad experience, with lots of flickering and freezing. Oh, and there's no built-in software for playing commercial DVDs.
And if there were, then it would be in violation of MPEG licensing. Good call Walt.
The
/\/\icro/\/\uncher
#3. Playing mp3's - learn the legal issues, we've been harping on that for YEARS.
You're missing the point. Average users shouldn't have to go to law school to figure out why their software doesn't work. Legal issues concerning codecs are irrelevant to users. Either the product works, or it doesn't. In this aspect, the product does not work.
I don't respond to AC's.
Mark Shuttleworth, the South African-born founder of the Ubuntu project, told me this week that "it would be reasonable to say that this is not ready for the mass market." And Dell's Web site for its Ubuntu computers warns that these machines are for "for advanced users and tech enthusiasts."
Armed with that knowledge, he goes out to write a column about:
So, what do I mean when I say Ubuntu is too rough around the edges for average users?
Apparently, though it is "too rough" it is not rough enough to keep the uninitiated away despite warnings precisely to that effect, which is a damned sight more interesting by itself than the litany of peeves he enumerates.
libmad http://www.underbit.com/products/mad/
I tried Linux in several distros back in 2000 and was amused but not pleased. Driver support was crazy, the simple matter of changing screen resolutions was terrible, and useful applications (beyond games) made Linux a poor choice for the basics.
Times change, however. Contrary to Mossburg, who, much of the time, is a very even-handed and well-informed tech columnist that really knows the ins and outs of Windows and OS X, I'd have to disagree with him here.
I've installed Ubuntu client in my Parallels virtual environment on my OS X system. I like it over the past Linux distros for several key reasons:
(1) Ubuntu (actually, GNOME) has greatly simplified its interface, "stealing" good elements from both OS X and Windows. From the Mac, a fixed menu bar at the top of the screen, and only four menus at that. Finding things is easy. From Windows, the notion of menu-launching key applications a'la the Start menu button (rather than mere commands found in OS X menus).
(2) Ubuntu has very good hardware support, but always there will be a system that doesn't like it as well. This is because of the same problem that Windows has (although Microsoft has more money and clout to throw at this problem): Hardware quality and variations in the computer world are astronomically huge. Expecting any operating system to support the myriad of PC hardware variations is just near-impossible. Ubuntu does much better, in my experience in using it, than say another GNOME interfaced-Linux, Fedora. (In fact, Fedora is pretty awful in client form.)
(3) Ubuntu has EVERYTHING that the average Joe Offthestreet needs for basic internet and home needs: A web browser (Firefox, arguably best in the biz), an office suite (OpenOffice, always trying to be something that MS Office thinks it is), a mail client (Thunderbird, a client so nice I've moved from Apple Mail to it on my OS X system) and lots of games and the like.
Software update processes are now less crazy and propellerhead, again taking the ideas from the commercial camps. Security is as good as any Unix/Linux client, and since its not Windows, spyware and viruses are not generally present here.
Ubuntu loses only in the specialized "gimme-gimme" internet needs of the youth and industry, like iTunes (doesn't exist, but good MP3 players and support for them are, although iTunes Music Store reins supreme, IMO), some specialty web features for audio or video, professional-level graphic and audio tools, and enterprise support (this problem is shared with OS X, despite my own personal and professional efforts to the opposite).
Installing further applications outside of the bundled, however, needs work. GNOME needs to expand further with, say, Apple's "package" concept of a single app in a double-clickable folder that contains all the binaries and libraries for the app. For now, Ubuntu works like many Linux clients, so third-party apps are hellish to do for the average Joe Whodoesntdo-cmdlines.
If I had a friend or family member that needed a computer (PC) but didn't want to fight the antiquation battles that MS wants to give its consumers, AND if my friend only needed to do web, email, and general office stuff, Ubuntu is a hands-down favorite.
Mossburg and others, unfortunately, may have had too much exposure to other operating systems to see things more simply. Not everyone needs an enterprise-level operating system...just one that works for them for what they need, at home.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
Why anyone is surprised by that review is beyond me. An average user, much as I hate to insult anyone, is usually computer illiterate to the point where any changes from the Windows (or Mac) UI are completely out of their scope of ability. It seems not to matter that Ubuntu comes with a slew of newbie friendly features or that have a logical GUI.
"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself." ~ Jack Gurney
I smoked pot once. But I DID NOT inhale. Will you hire me?
>"Ubuntu isn't a good choice compared to Windows or OS X."
Well it isn't but it doesn't aim at that market.
The first time some newbie Ubuntu user pops into BestBuy to purchase some software, they'll realize their mistake.
It's great for the cash challenged and techies, but not regular people.
Mossberg was comparing the out-of-the-box experience from a preconfigured machine Dell sent him. He didn't have to deal with install at all. He did about 1 paragraph of "valid" argument that some things in the software didn't work correctly... and they should have.
But he made no mention of what DID work. The Dell should have had everything working... CD burning, DVD burning, 3D effects, wireless, internet, office.... etc. He made no mention at all about what he tried to DO with the machine. All he pointed out was that his camera and iPod didn't work when plugged in. The camera is another issue to probably fix, but the iPod doesn't include software for Linux in it's package...why would it work with Linux? Then he dives into the useless troll that it's free, but it's still not good enough and should be better if people want to do serious work... Blah, blah...
For being a tech journalist, it was a trash review... it had no "journalism" at all, and was merely an excuse to dismiss Linux for another few years without reporting on what's actually going on... just like the corporate masters like it.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Ubuntu right out of the box or even freshly installed can't play mp3s, Windows media files, DVDs and a whole host of other protocols that are common to the 'Net savy Windows luser.
This is because Ubuntu refuses to include these protocols because of religious beliefs that all multimedia protocols should be free and even makes it difficult to find and load them from alternate sources.
Well done Ubuntu! You are making absolutely certain that any new user will be frightened away from your OS because of your timid approach reality.
When I setup an Ubuntu box for a client, I immediately connect to sources for all the non-free codecs and applications (Adobe Flash & Acroreader, SUN Java, all the Microsoft data formats and even install Wine for some proprietary applications as required).
I then install MPlayer and SMPlayer and adjust the OS to make these the default players for almost all video formats because they blow what Ubuntu thinks is cool right out of the water when it comes to features and stability - hear that Mark?
There is little point trying to sell the world your fantastic product when it can't even play an MP3 or DVD - how useful is that.
I blame Ubuntu for not adjusting to reality in this case - beautiful operating system but almost useless out of the box.
'I'm not dead yet' Ed
Does it matter that the founder of Ubuntu is "South African-born"? Is it some Xenophobic undertone to the founder or is Mossberg of the old mind set where everyone must be qualified by race (My black/asian/indian friend George said...)
Sadly, some joker already tagged this article haha. Please consider all of the points below.
1. Walt & the WSJ doesn't much like change, or new ideas in a big PR money category. Playing two PR reps and their big-budget companies off one another is preferred. A third wheel screws the whole thing up no matter how much money Shuttleworth throws at the WSJ.
2. Walt's fundamentally a very imperious sort of fellow. So a GUI like OSX is more up his alley.
3. Walt can't piss off Microsoft or Apple. They are major WSJ advertisers. Who knows what else they provide for Walt.
I think it was a very bad idea on Shuttleworth's part to drive for a WSJ review. Anyone with some PR experience would have told him that it was going to go badly because of at least 2 of my points above. If Shuttleworth/Dell ever get another crack at it, it will be more of the same kind of nonsensical dings that red headed step child brands typically get in the PR big-leagues.
Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
So wouldn't using Mac OSX still involve learning a new interface? I'm going through that change right now. I am a long term PC guy who at home is voluntarily trying Linux and at work forcibly trying Mac. and there is some nice stuff but I kinda like my Ubuntu at home. I suppose at home I also have my nice fuzzy warm blankey that is windows I can easily switch back over too when things get too uncomfortable.
So he has TWO legitimate complaints and one minor problem. He's an idiot.
Is this a fancy way of saying he's an average user? Your average user isn't going to know anything about the legal issues surrounding codecs on Linux. All they know is that on Windows and OSX their media files play fine right after installing the OS. The habit of calling new users idiots and blowing them off saying "RTFM" is one of the things that's stunted Linux adoption on the desktop.
By his "logic", Windows is not ready for anyone. Try getting an iPod to work on it without installing software.
An iPod comes with software and instructions that make it ready and easy to install on Windows/OSX. I certainly doubt there are any instructions in an iPod box that deal with installing it on your favorite Linux distro. Which means of course that you end up online searching Google for how to use your iPod with Linux. This is one of his (legitimate) gripes. In fairness it's not a gripe with Linux so much as it is with the lack of manufacturer support, but for users this is one in the same.
"What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
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The problems are indeed silly and minor, and that is what makes them so bad. If Dell had taken a little bit of time to eat their own dog food here, then problems like touchpad oversensitivity probably wouldn't exist. Furthermore, the multimedia capabilities of a fresh Windows install are, IIRC, fairly limited. The reason why a brand new Windows PC will play DVDs etc. is because all of that stuff was set up previously. You'd think that a big player like Dell would be able to arrange for their Linux machines to be able to play a few DVDs and mp3 files, but they clearly haven't put in the effort here.
I don't expect Dell to even be able to provide decent Linux telephone support, and I appreciate that they do say before they sell you the machine that the Linux range is aimed at advanced users, and that support will only be forthcoming from the community at large. I am disappointed though by the apparent lack of attention towards pre-configuration and software-hardware integration which would for me be the main reason for selling Linux pre-installed in the first place.
When you buy windows, you pay for licensing the required codecs to play MP3 and video files. If Dell thinks this is a big issue that customers can't play MP3 files (and I think it is), then they should work out some kind of deal whereby they pay for licensing for these codecs, so that people can play the files they want to play. Also, it seems that Dell has really bad execution of this product, and that it's not really Linux or Ubuntu's fault. The machine should come working, out of the box, and if it doesn't, then Dell shouldn't be selling it.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
I applaud the Ubuntu team for their efforts but castigate them for not putting just as much effort into KDE and Kubuntu, despite the fact that Canonical's head said that KDE would be "fully" supported and given attention. I have looked at KDE 4.0 and I can say it looks very promising. Ubuntu still, appears to lean mostly toward GNOME.
And this is because MP3 codecs can't be included in an OS without paying a bunch of money to Thomson (licensee of the MP3 patents). MS and Apple can pay this, Ubuntu can't. How could this ever be solved for free software until the patents run out?
I smoked pot once. But I DID NOT inhale. Will you hire me?
never had those type of problems with XP or OSX. In fact I've had more difficulty with the trackpad on my Toshiba laptop running XP then I ever had running Gentoo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
Seriously, Mossberg probably wrote a fair, overall, summary of things with this review. But picking on the trackpad sensitivity or speed is pretty weak. I'm just as angry that Apple still defaults to the right-click being disabled in "keyboard/mouse preferences" in OS X, despite every one of their new desktop Macs shipping with a "mighty mouse" that has right-click capabilities. I've already had to "fix" that for 2 new iMac owners who thought their mighty mouse was broken or defective.
Absolutely. It is utterly ridiculous that people nitpick the article's points as if to say, "aha, gotcha!" or "see, he *is* an idiot!" It is much closer than it was before, but that doesn't mean you can rest easy - no, it should be high time to surpass Windows and OS X once you catch up with them.
Complacency is the enemy here, don't espouse it. These sorts of outsider reviews are extremely helpful.
does XP "not work" because it cant play h.264 out of the box?
The problem that Linux has is that it's written by wildly disparate groups of people with different ideas about how an OS should work from a user perspective. The strength of Linux is that it's written by wildly disparate groups of people with different ideas about how an OS should work from a technical perspective.
It's perfectly possible to make a UNIX OS be usable by the masses -- Apple's done that with OS X. The difference is that Apple "cheats" -- they only support a certain range of hardware, all of which is a known quantity to them. They're not dealing with the issues of a Frankencomputer made from whatever bits of hardware happen to show up.
The only way to get Linux as a mass-use OS is to user test the living hell out of it. That means a continual process of refactoring so that the user never has to view the command line unless they really want to. That means making sure that every application follows a consistent HIG. That means that the first person who says something along the lines of "RTFA" gets canned.
What matters isn't technical excellence, but a culture of usability. The Linux subculture is still based around the hacker ethics -- and that's why Linux remains an OS primarily for people who enjoy compiling programs and manipulating settings. That has to change. The culture needs to be one of taking a critical look at every stage in the process and presenting the user with a set of simple and consistent choices that let people use their computers rather than worrying about getting their machine in a usable state. Ubuntu's leaning in that direction, but they still have a long way to go.
The problem is that changing a culture is a hell of a lot harder than just writing software. A culture in which people are expected to navigate the Internet looking for answers will keep Linux marginalized. A culture that says "this problem is too complicated and needs to be simplified so that the average user gets it" is a culture that can take Linux to the mainstream. Not only that, but it encourages technical development as well -- a good number of the reasons for unnecessary complexity is because there are unnecessary complications in the way a piece of code works. At the end of the day, a solution that's simple for the user is often simple at the code level as well.
I've been using Linux for a decade now, and Ubuntu is a great distro -- but it still isn't enough. The only way that Linux will get mainstream acceptance is when Linux developers start consciously thinking about the overall user experience. It isn't the code that's the problem, it's the culture, and looking for technological solutions to cultural problems doesn't work -- just look at what Microsoft is trying to do with its current strategy.
> People still use sleep? Besides 90% of the time windows crashes on wake from sleep.
I use sleep on XP SP2 all the time. The machine is set up to go into sleep mode after 90 minutes of 'inactivity'. It wakes up every time without a hitch. The only thing that ever suffers is my VPN connection, because the far end client has timed out. We have at least two user accounts active at all times, sometimes three. So maybe Win2K sleep was unreliable. Win98 and ME certainly were. But I have problems with sleep mode on XP.
Oh yes, I choose to set sleep mode to avoid burning power when the machine is idle. Display blanks at 15 min., disks spool down at 30 min., sleep mode at 90.
I find that those settings never interfere with my daily use, but if I walk away and get distracted, the machine basically parks itself.
I haven't seen one for the differences between Windows and Gnome, ubuntuguide.org was a great place for me when I was starting out. In addition, Automatix is a wonderful tool to install all of the proprietary formats, players, etc. Linux isn't for everybody, but I think that if more people gave it a chance, they would find out that it isn't as scary as a lot of reviewers make it. Walt's review was balanced, but it was also wrong on some accounts (e.g. not being able to adjust the mouse touchpad sensitivity). I cannot totally agree with his experiences, either, as I have had 100% success in dealing with external devices such as iPods. I have been able to rescue a few iPods that were Mac-formatted with Ubuntu, something that I wouldn't want to try on an XP machine.
The review wasn't as comical as some reviews have been. (Who can put Window's Add/Remove programs on the same level as Ubuntu's Add/Install programs?!?), but there was very little content to go with the fluff. I don't think this article really tells us anything we don't know, or really helps sway new computer buyers one way or another.
His issue wasn't that the touch pad was sensitive.
His issue was that the touch pad was sensitive, and Ubuntu gave him no way to adjust it. A windows install would have provided a fairly intuitive way for the end user to adjust touchpad sensitivity/function.
paintball
QUOTE: But open source is a two-edged sword. While it draws on smart developers from many places, nobody is ultimately responsible for the quality of the product, and open-source developers often have an imperfect feel for how average people use software. Huh? This is madness!!! The word "communities" is associated with open source. Everyone in the communities (whether it's the developer community or the av. user community) can voice out opinions about say a feature, and people within those communities listen, discuss, and this can even cause new features to emerge for e.g. He should be aware of the zillions of forums out there dedicated to open source projects and how everyone can voice out opinions which MATTER! As far as the Ubuntu review goes, he should not just give up. Normally, most average users experiencing problems will call for some help from others and learn how to mend issues. This is how an av. user is turned into an experienced user over time. Come on! There are far better reviews from newbies out there, who actually mention how they got Ubuntu (or any distro or app) working thanks to the community. Ubuntu is FREE! It's open source. There's excellent support via the forums, and it's time to switch to *nix, and become an experienced user (over time).
Do I require the c-sig package to have a signature?
Exactly.
Ubuntu is a Linux distribution.
It is based upon the GPL.
That's Free as in speech. NOT free as in beer. Which is what that idiot seems to have missed.
Ubuntu is NOT about being a free (as in beer) replacement for Windows/Macs. It's about being a Free (as in speech) system.
Picking up a Free system and then complaining that it doesn't work with your non-Free items is
I've got a few year old Acer tablet, and my touchpad is considerably more sensitive in Ubuntu than it is in windows; I've been running Ubuntu on it for the past 6 months or so. If I ever so slightly brush the touchpad, it will register a click. Occasionally, when I'm "rowing" on the touchpad, it will register a click when there really shouldn't have been. His gripe is valid, and not addressed with the control panels available in a default installation.
Yes, I am a smart ass; it's better than the alternative.
Looks like Walt reviewed it from the point of view of someone who completely refuses to read, think for themselves, or even lift a finger to accomplish simple tasks.
That begs the question, why would such a person need or wish to use a computer in the first place? A respirator and feeding tube might be more appropriate.
Actually, as a recent Ubuntu user Automatix (the software to install programs - right?) should get a huge mention. I installed a free game (Wesnoth), found and installed a conversion utility to convert mpc to Ogg , and got installed a beta of Gimmie for desktop organisation. I've barely scratched the surface of software available. If I had to purchase these extras in a Windows environment, that was probably $100. His comments are valid, and maybe I'm a "little more" tech savvy than the average user (ie. I know how to google solutions for things like restricted drivers) but he should clearly mention a key benefit like Automatix.
Maybe I am thinking standby then...one of those things just crashes my computers.
I smoked pot once. But I DID NOT inhale. Will you hire me?
Computers are not a magic, mind reading, fix everything in one click device. This guy expects everything to work out of the box perfectly and to his specs.
Not even windows machines do that. In comparison, it takes a fair bit of configuring out of the box to even get a windows machine ready for safe internet access.
Star Pirates
I read the article, and I thought it reflected worse on Dell than it does on Ubuntu, because Dell could have fixed the issues that he complained about -- they already write crappy middleware for Windows, why not just pre-configure the Linux stuff?
I mean, how much does it cost for an mp3/dvd decoder in bulk?
How about making sure that the touchpad worked better with Linux, along with the video drivers?
Seems like Dell has some crappy quality control -- I guess most of their R&D is just done by Microsoft -- surprising that they didn't invest some of the money they saved on Windows licensing in producing a nicer master image for the machines that they are selling.
"All they know is that on Windows and OSX their media files play fine right after installing the OS"
Windows and OSX don't play many "free" media files at all out-of-the-box. These software vendors could support these file formats without any license fees and everyone could have a common format for all platforms and players. But, no. It's all about lock-in/lock-out or pay to play.
MBAs who are employed (one would assume this is the WSG audience) can afford to pay a tech for basic stuff that is over their heads. And, the thing is (and the reviewer doesnt mention) is that once these things are done its very unlikely they will need re-doing any time soon.
If you are a shareware whore who needs to load up your pc with every stupid widget windows hawks offer you then you are going to fuck up your machine and it will need reloading. And few of these people seem competent to do more than insert the cd and wipe everything when their "computer gets slow." But THERE ARE NO widgets offered at every turn in linux so this is an unlikely fate for such users.
I have a user now who came into the shop with a fairly new but ailing laptop. He was completely unhappy with the installed vista so I offerd to hook him up with ubuntu. He has DSL so there were no modem issues; I installed ubuntu, installed the codecs and various few packagses needed for other typical things (like flash, decss, etc) and sent him on his way. Both he and his wife use it, and she uses it for school. In months now he has come back with questions exactly once - they both love it.
Most people need help installing windows and getting their system up and running. It may arrive running OOTB but windows most always eventually dies and when that happens most "typical users" who know nothing about the behind the scenes stuff will either ask a friend (who may be just as clueless as them but foolhardy enough to give it a go anyway) or pay a shop to fix their machine. At that point linux WILL have a lower cost of ownership and greater overall reliability - even for the "average user."
Why should anyone believe a guy who cant even find the freaking mouse control panel? Is he really so stupid he can't fiugure out the mouse panel just might fix the touchpad settings on his mouse-less laptop?
Amusing. See the subsequent Slashdot article, http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/17/1543208.
It appears that the "vast majority of computer users" are the same ones who are so incompetent that they have surpassed viruses themselves as a source of affliction.
The "vast majority of computer users" need to learn how to use these complicated machines.
Rich And Stupid is not so bad as Working For Rich And Stupid.
After reading his column side by side with your retorts, it's pretty obvious why he has a job in journalism and you don't. You nit picked on completely irrelevant points, tried to argue points that even Ubuntu's creators acknowledge as weak points in Ubuntu's design, and excuse any legitimate complaint with a dismisal "well, it's free, what do you expect?" It's zealots like you that give the Linux movement a bad reputation.
Good post sir/madam.
I'm not suggesting that the rank-and-file support the uninitiated, but perhaps Linux vendors can take these types of things as fielding notes to help them build a better product.
Unless Linux geeks don't actually *want* Windows users to switch... :-)
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
How can he claim to be something he's not?
He's not claiming to be an average user, he's attempting to evaluate it from their perspective.
Isn't this Dell's issue? Even under Windows, Dell tunes their OEM install.
Well, what does Free mean to you Walt?
And if there were, then it would be in violation of MPEG licensing. Good call Walt.
All red herrings.
He's not evaluating Linux, or even Ubuntu, in some abstract sense to see if it's "ready for the desktop". He's trying to determine whether Joe Schmoe could go out and buy one of these computers instead of the version with Windows.
So it doesn't matter why something doesn't work, whether it's because Dell set it up wrong, or there's an issue of Free software, or whatever, the point is it doesn't work. (Or works poorly.)
"The Ubuntu-equipped Inspiron 1420N starts at $744, but the configuration that Dell lent me for testing sells for $1,415. The same unit equipped with Windows Vista costs $1,524. The Ubuntu version includes OpenOffice, the free office suite that competes with Microsoft Office. Dell charges an added $149 for Microsoft Office."
So what is your point? That people that don't want to run Microsoft products really should because its almost the same price for the hardware?
I suspect his points are that the machine he tested costs $1415, there's a version with Windows and Office for $109 more, and you could pay another $149 for Office if you wanted.
Do you always assume people have an agenda when they write something?
Let's reword this: Windows has an issue because
No, he recommends OS X. He says that Windows is better for non-advanced users *out of the box* than Ubuntu. And he didn't actually recommend Vista as better, he simply compared a Vista box for price comparison.
Spreadsheets are not a basic windows function. That is MS Office - an advanced user's add-on.
Are you talking about Vista? If you are referring to XP, that is highly inaccurate. It may not be safe, but is easily done. Once again, we aren't talking about Outlook, which is an Office item.
He's not an idiot, he *is* biased, and he quoted Mark Shuttleworth, the South African-born founder of the Ubuntu project, which helps prove his point which you so ardently decry:"it would be reasonable to say that this is not ready for the mass market."
Oh, and yes, I am an Ubuntu user (well Kubuntu, to be exact).
"Little is much when little you need."
I'm not sure if you're trolling or just clueless. I'll give you the benefit of doubt and tell you this:
1) Non-free codecs and some applications that you cited above aren't there not "because of religious beliefs" (whatever that means) but because there's licensing, patents and/or redistribution rights problems.
2) With one package installation those problems are solved.
Scientia est Potentia
If the computer isn't running, it's awfully hard to Google anything. Mossberg's column is for end-users, not techies. It's for harried businessmen who are thinking, "should i jump to this Ubuntu thing my geeks keep telling me about, or wait another six months?"
Complain to Dell about the Automatix oversight, as he took what he would have bought from Dell and tried to use it, without having to become a guru first.
the more accurate the calculations became, the more the concepts tended to vanish into thin air. R. S. Mulliken
Holy shit dude, are you like injecting speed into your eyeballs or something? That is a huge amount of vitriol for a man who wrote his opinion(not to mention he did mention some positive things about Linux)
Take a deep breath and put down the crack pipe!
Where is the KeyMaster!
Many technical aspects of Linux are quite good. The user interface for configuration needs some improvement. I have heard that Ubuntu is working on a fail-safe X feature and a more user friendly way to tinker with the config file. Booting up to a black void because the monitor isn't understood is not good.
You mean the Automatix that even Ubuntu developers have publically spoken out against?
I agree 100%. Ubuntu is a great system, I use it daily and my teenage non-geek daughter replaced Vista on her laptop with it. The only big snag was that the speakers did not cut out when the earphones were plugged in, and the audio did not go to the earphones. This required the supremely geeky solution of hunting down a specific version of the ALSA driver, compiling it, and installing it, with the potential of having to do it again each time the drivers get updated in the repositories. My daughter was neither amused nor favorably impressed by this, and it marred an otherwise happy transition to Linux. Unlike Mossberg, she was perfectly at ease using the Synaptic Package Manager to install things once she was shown how. Also, there are several good, user-friendly books on using Ubuntu.
Ubuntu is definitely most of the way there, but the remaining roughspots are serious and definitely discouraging to new users. It would be wisest to work towards GNU/Linux distros that are so polished and integrated that Mossberg can't find fault with them. Don't criticize the guy. To most educated people, he is a tech god whose word is law. If he is leveraged as the pass/fail criterion for Linux, there will be an avalanche of new users.
I don't know if this was part of Shuttleworth's plan or not, but it may well be a brilliant strategy to quickly get Ubuntu ready for prime time. If Mossberg raves about it, everybody will rave about it.
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Ha ha. I'm far from a linux zealot; try be not anonymous.
/\/\icro/\/\uncher
Average users have average OSes at their disposal with which they can enjoy an average level of satisfaction. Nobody need worry about them. I'd agree that Linux is not ready for average users. It's made for exceptional users whose expectations are not satisfied by average operating systems designed for average users.
Any moron can see that Linux isn't ready for the desktop, like Windows isn't ready for the server market. This is because most people want technology to just work. They are not technology workers and they don't care how it works because they have their own fields to learn, or are unskilled labor and can't learn.
I think what we as those who produce code should focus on is the generally low quality of software and hardware. In efficiency, capabilities and interface, our software and hardware today generally is mediocre but rarely better.
If Linux improves in these areas, it will be adopted, because the price is right and its hipness factor is higher than that of Windows or Mac OS (Windows is corporate, and the Mac is associated with smug trendsters talking loudly at Starbucks).
Let's be honest about the issues facing Linux.
1. Installation sucks. Hardware support is lacking, the process is ambiguous and confusing for most users. Included in this is "Your documentation generally sucks because it's done by non-professionals."
2. Much familiar, high quality Windows software is missing. Yes, Photoshop really is better than GIMP. And Office is better than OpenOffice. Quark is better than Scribus (or inDesign).
3. People want clear, simple, fast answers to common problems, not a "fiddle with it and come back to our mailing list so we can call you stupid again."
4. Someone to call in case of emergency who can give definite answers. It's 3 AM and your taxes are due, and there's some odd problem you don't understand. You can call Microsoft and for $200 they'll fix it. For Linux?
Knowing that software generally sucks helps us stop resting on our (or Linus's) laurels and lets us realize we have a lot to do. Software is still in its infancy. It is bloated and inefficient, it often lacks capabilities for common tasks and is unreliable, and its interfaces are generally awkward and seemingly created with no understanding of how the end user works. And interoperability is still in its infancy.
What I'm saying here is that to beat Windows, you have to be better at the game of being an operating system for people who are not obsessed with computers. Tech geeks don't understand that there are other ways of earning a living that are equally as if not more legitimate (and difficult) than typing in code patterns. These people want to focus on their specialty, not yours.
As long as we are content to scorn others for not being geeks, we will not meet their needs, and so Windows will continue to triumph over us as it is doing now. We need to stop thinking everyone out there is a tech geek. Think outside of the box? Think outside of your solipsistic skulls, and realize you haven't met the needs of the average or exceptional person out there.
technical writing / development
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What he seems to be saying is that Ubuntu is ready for corporate desktop. The minor driver issues can be dealt with by
support guys but otherwise the polish is there. It may not be ready for the grandma but his review makes it sound like
Ubuntu is ready for desktop (if there is someone to custom configure it upfront).
Is there anyone working on the complete client-server install distro of Linux (something that would install a complete
Linux groupware solution on the server and Linux clients ready to talk to said server)? A complete end-to-end install
where there is no need for things like Exchange on either end.
I thought the ipod didn't come with any software. Instead they directed you to download iTunes.
installing linux is easy.
ever tried installing windows?
besides, TFA seems to be talking about a Dell laptop with linux preinstalled.
Let's look at his complaints, shall we?
There is no control panel for adjusting the way the touch pad works, and I found it so sensitive that I was constantly launching programs
First: That's a hardware thing, not software, so he would be just as right to complain to Dell about this. Second, this is an issue in every laptop I've ever used unless you use the pre-installed Windows that comes with it. Even if you put another clean install of Windows on it, surprise! Suddenly your touchpad doesn't work all that well, or the scroll area doesn't work at all, and you have to go hunt down fiddly drivers from the machine's manufacturer.
Same goes for multimedia crap. Hell, on plenty of laptops I've dealt with, and some desktops, a clean install of Windows XP results in no audio, no NIC, no wireless, and no video drivers. You have to go find all this crap yourself.
Those stupid drivers, by the way, are beyond the ken of most users. Your aunt Mabel doesn't know how to install drivers in Windows any more than she would in Linux, She wouldn't even know what to look for, or where to look. And when you do install them, you can look forward to a desktop icon, a systray icon hogging memory for no reason, and at least one, but probably more, inane start menu entries.
So let's not go pretending Windows is easier or better than anything else on this front, hm?
Every time the computer awoke from sleep, the volume control software crashed and had to be reloaded.
I've installed Ubuntu, from Hoary to Feisty, on dozens of machines, both laptops and desktops. I have never had this problem, and none of my friends have come to me whining about it either. I grant that my evidence is purely anecdotal, but I find it a little too strange that he's having this issue which I've never even heard of, much less encountered.
When I tried to play common audio and video files, such as MP3 songs, I was told I had to first download special files called codecs that are built into Windows and Mac computers.
Way to miss the point there, sport. With Ubuntu, if you don't have a codec (which, by the way, isn't built into Mac or Windows either), it will discover this and go get it for you. I agree that the warning about free this and open that would confuse Aunt Mabel, but let's look at the alternative: Go play a movie in a default Windows install. It doesn't play. There won't be any freaking warning, helpful error, or anything else. At most you'll get some gibberish about OxDEADBEEF and some obscure crap that you and I recognize as a missing codec, but Aunt Mabel wouldn't.
Oh, and once you recognize that you're missing a codec? Now you get to go find it and install it! Have fun hunting down a codec pack that doesn't riddle you with adware, champ.
To get the computer to recognize my Kodak camera and Apple iPod, I had to reboot it several times.
Can't speak to this as I don't deal with iPods or cameras, but let's not pretend like installing things in Windows doesn't require a reboot. Half the time you have to reboot just because you installed a new mouse driver or something, and Windows will freaking nag you to death about it until you do it. Still, although I've never had to deal with the hardware he's discussing, I can say that I've never had to restart an Ubuntu machine to work with new anything except a new kernel.
Playing videos was a bad experience, with lots of flickering and freezing. Oh, and there's no built-in software for playing commercial DVDs.
Never had a problem with video on any machine I've ever put Ubuntu on. Ever. And there's no "built in" DVD playing software for Windows that I know of either. You can either go try to find one yourself, install it, and hope it's either free or won't riddle you with more adware crap (and five desktop entries, quickstart buttons, systray icons...), or you could open Synaptic, type "DVD player", and have a one-click, fully
mirrorshades radio -- darkwave, industrial, futurepop, ebm.
How are they red herrings? Yes, he is claiming to be evaluating this from the point of view of an average user... but he is not an average user, nor do I believe based on his previous articles is he capable of putting on another hat. And he IS evaluating Unbutu/Dell to make his decision of "ready for the desktop." My counterpoint is that ANY correctly configured Linux distribution for the hardware can rival commercial operating systems for the average user.
Thanks for discounting my points tho - you'd be a good politician.
/\/\icro/\/\uncher
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Also, everyone always says these features for the non-techie and we need to do this so my 50+ grandmother can use it. I think that we forget that even long time Linux users don't want to deal with spending hours getting their own systems to work.
My primary job at work is to maintain Linux servers and development machines. I also have a few Linux PCs and servers at home. I hate it as much as the average non-techie when I try to boot up my nice shiny new Ubuntu CD and it locks up on bootup everytime. Or when I finally get it installed and the screen is all screwed up and there are major soundcard issues and I have to debug it or search forums.
Even if we didn't care about non-tech users, who here on Slashdot enjoys dealing with problems that could have been fixed by good autodetection and clear easy configuration choices.
How could this ever be solved for free software until the patents run out?
That's a good question. I have no idea. Regardless of what the solution is, it's still not the consumer's problem. The consumer is buying the end product, just like anything else.
If Bic can't sell you ball point pens with ink because they're having trouble with their ink suppliers, who's going to buy Bic pens, with the idea that "It's not their fault they can't get ink. I'll just buy some empty, non-functioning ball point pens, and work around the "no ink" problem myself."? Any sane consumer will assume that the Bic product is faulty (which it is), and buy a competitor's product that does function properly.
During the pet food recalls, nobody continued to buy potentially tainted food because the manufacturer made a good faith effort to provide a good product. The reason the products were defective is irrelevant. The products were defective, and no consumer in his/her right mind is going to buy a defective product unless there is absolutely no alternative.
In 2007, an OS that doesn't play MP3 files out of the box is going to be considered by most end users as defective.
I don't respond to AC's.
If I purchase a windows computer from dell, it comes installed with dvd player support, etc. If I were to get an ipod from dell would it come with the itunes installed? Lets just leave it at Dell fucked up and is screwing over the Ubuntu users because it has a disclaimer on its site saying you should know what you are doing if you purchase one of these computers.
I smoked pot once. But I DID NOT inhale. Will you hire me?
If you refuse to think, why even use a computer?
./configure-make-make install nightmare), it'll never become a mature desktop OS.
Because computers are supposed to think FOR you, and not viceversa? What drives me nuts is that linux fanbois still think as computers as "electronic puzzles to tinker with" instead of "tools that make your life easier".
The other day I saw a youtube video about Apple's intelligent agent (this video was made around 15 to 20 years ago). The agent, an AI "buttler" asked you questions about what you wanted to do, so you described the problem to him and he presented you the answers about finances, math, even making correlations on demand. You asked the agent to teleconference you with another person (and present graphs), etc.
Windows is much closer to that goal, simply because (yes, yes, I know, it's been said a gazillion times) "it just works". The implementations are still in the stone age, but at least they got the idea right. Linux fanbois are still stuck in the "hacker" way of thinking.
Let me remind you this: Users are NOT hackers!.
As long as Linux is released from the chains that tie it to the commandline (and the
While what you say is correct, the truth of the matter is that from a computer-literate point of view, many end-users (probably the majority of them) completely refuse to read, think for themselves, or even lift a finger to accomplish simple tasks.
For most people, computers are a magic box that should 'just work.' With Windows being invasive and ubiquitous, that ideal _appears_ to be achieved for most people, for a while, regardless of how broken and smelly the guts of the system are. After three years or so, viruses, bugs, and bloat lead to unstable Windows installations so people dump their systems and get new ones. This isn't how things should be, it's how they are.
In that sense, Walt's review was right on the money.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
No. Everyday people use technology every day, doesn't make them techies or power users. Average people have neat toys, and they expect them to 'just work'.
No, from your average users pov, that is just the way it is. As for your 2nd point, you prove it yourself by stating that YOU can set up linux distros for other people...fully knowing there is no way they could have done it themselves.
Um...those in glass houses and all that...
He's not claiming to be something he's not. He's evaluating it from their perspective. Funny how that's exactly what he said...
Pointless...won't even comment.
Nice attempt at a redirect there...the important bit you ignore being that the founder of Ubuntu agrees with him...not ready for mass market...yet.
If yo
No Comment.
As long as Linux is released
Should read: "As long as Linux is NOT released".
This is the general problem with Linux Zealotry. We grasp on any good reviews we ignore or discredit any bad news, and continue on as like nothing happens. In order for Linux to get this elusive desktop market share it has a lot of details it needs to work out. It is no longer Can Linux do this, but more to the point Windows Does this better or Mac OS X does this better. Its getting better lets think of it in terms of Desks.
Early Linux was like a desk made from Stackable Milk Crates and plywood.
Next they polished thy plywood so it is usable enough to get work done.
Now Linux is equivalent to one of those particle board desks which generally look decent and get the job done. But OS X and even Windows are like real wood desks made from hardwood polished to to a fine shine.
Now these Hardwood desks may have less features and cost more then the Particleboard Desk but still they are nicer and people prefer them more because they look and feel that much better.
In many cases the details are what makes the final decision not the overall what it can do.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
But on Windows you dont get divx, xvid or ac3 codecs etc without having to hunt them down and install them manually either! Sure you get mp3 and a few Microsoft propriety codecs but I dont see the difference, installing them manually is installing them manually!
I didn't read that the computer wasn't working, and I'm pretty sure he turned it on! Firefox worked for me without the codecs installed, and I could look things up easily using google as soon as I turned on the computer (this is not even a Dell laptop, btw).
Complain to Dell about the Automatix oversight
With respect to Automatix, no one told me about it either (that I recall?) but it was there in the menus easily findable.
As for your point about his article being for "harried businessmen who are thinking, should i jump to this Ubuntu thing my geeks keep telling me about, or wait another six months" I am one of those harried businessmen, and I'm waiting 6 months but not for any of the issues he raises (my geeks can figure out how to play an MP3 without my help!)
Computers are not a magic, mind reading, fix everything in one click device. This guy expects everything to work out of the box perfectly and to his specs.
Not even windows machines do that. In comparison, it takes a fair bit of configuring out of the box to even get a windows machine ready for safe internet access. Average users don't know how to configure their PCs.
Average users don't want to know how to configure their PCs.
Average users shouldn't have to know how to configure their PCs.
While that's true to an extent, blaming Ubuntu for not supporting non-Free codecs -- which it's not legally allowed to do and thus is not Ubuntu's fault -- is a lot like, say, blaming a rape victim for having been unable to resist the attacker. It may be technically true, but it's also both extremely unfair and unhelpful.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
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I would love the average user to be technically savvy enough to install and use Linux, any distro. It would eliminate a lot of problems we all face. The technically savvy user would be able to keep their equipment cleaner from mal-ware and would be a lot more vocal about quality control of software products.
you know what? I also would love the average user to be technically savvy enough to install and use windows. It also would eliminate a lot of problems we all face. In fact every point you make is why users that use windows give us grief and they get grief.
Also Installing windows XP or vista is far more challenging that Ubuntu, but most users cant install any OS.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Why is it that we're saying "Hay Free OS, why aren't you as good as this one that costs money?" Shouldn't we be saying, "Hay expensive OS's, why is this Free OS almost as good as you?"
This is a Dell laptop shipped with Ubuntu. And it was reviewed As Shipped..as in exactly how your Average User would receive it.
Your zealotism is doing no favors for the Linux community. This attitude does nothing but damage the reputation and adoptability of Linux.
Let me give you just a wee bit of proof that hopefully you'll understand: What market share of Average Users are running something other than Windows or OSX?
Ahh, but you MUST be right...
(I'll leave it to you to figure out why you're not...and to hopefully see how articles like this are actually HELPING linux)
No Comment.
Sure he can. He (and 99% of the world) does not care about OSS. He loaded what was billed as a fully featured OS. These days, what part of what a fully featured OS is assumed to provide is default support for a wide range of multimedia. If it doesn't work out of the box, it should be seamless. If Windows or OSX is fed a video or audio file it doesn't support, it goes looking for a codec and often has it installed before you know anything it wrong. If Linux doesn't do this, should he care why?
Does Linux need any of this? Only if it wants to come out of the server room.
What did Linux ever do to you!!? Why do you people have to be SOOOOOO MEAN!!!!!?? LEAVE LINUX USERS ALONE GODDAMMIT!!!! They're just human beings exactly like you are!! And Walt Mossberg has to do and get all mean all over Ubuntu for what?!! Why does he have to be so mean!!? Leave Linux Users Alone!! Linux developers didn't even have to write the kernel, base apps and GUI for you. You're even lucky Linux exists! Just leave Linux users alone! Anyone who is going to diss and hate on Linux is going to have to deal with me first!!! Leave Linux Users Alone!!!
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
There's a difference between "You need to install software" and "Legally, you can't do this", you fucktard.
Isn't this a contradiction?
Haha, no. A user's computer ability and expectations are not a binary system, and aren't necessarily linked. In fact, I would think that most people who use computers now "aren't afraid of computers" but also "simply want their digital products to operate as promised, with as little maintenance and hassle as possible." Are you really trying to dispute this obvious point?
Isn't this biased and patronizing? And is there proof of the last claim? I can set up most Linux distros such that a user needs no knowledge at all of Unix. How is that different from OS X?
Installing and CUSTOMIZING linux is just as easy as it is with Windows or OSX? Take a deep breath and rethink what you just said.
Translation: I'm going to stomp all over you so stop bugging me.
How can he claim to be something he's not?
Then what are you doing? Evaluating a piece of software while considering its end-user learning curve is completely reasonable. Hell, even you're trying to do it.
Again, lets enumerate what those are Walt? We'll get to those later.
Hold on, he's getting to it...
What does where he comes from have anything to do with it?
Haha, so now you know the software's design intent better than the founder himself? Even the columnist preemptively called you out, "Before every passionate Linux fan attacks that conclusion..."
Yeah here comes some steaming piles of rational!
Yes, read them, they actually make sense.
Isn't this Dell's issue? Even under Windows, Dell tunes their OEM install.
And an "average user" cares...why? Linux drivers are immature, finicky, and largely ignored by many manufactuers. To the end user, it doesn't matter WHO is at fault, just that the drivers, when compared to Windows and OSX, simply aren't at the same level of maturity.
Well, what does Free mean to you Walt?
You can't have it both ways. You can't keep on saying how Linux is easy to use, free, and made of pure ponies and rainbows, then immediately turn around to dismiss any criticism by saying that free products are expected to be significantly lower in quality.
And if there were, then it would be in violation of MPEG licensing. Good call Walt.
Again, why does the end user care? He just bought a computer with a DVD drive and expects it to read his DVD movies.
So what is your point? That people that don't want to run Microsoft products really should because its almost the same price for the hardware?
The point is that one of Linux's MAJOR benefits is that it is free. But on new hardware, Windows isn't really that expensive. See, sometimes in journalism, people compare how much two products cost when balanced against their feature set.
But as a casual user, this is all moot. A casual user would not be accessing the open source,would they? You've already noted that free doesn't equal quality.
You seem confused at this point...
Vista crashes too Walt, is this what you mean? Or that many applications still aren't Windows compatable because Vista isn't 100% backward compatible? Or maybe that Classic MacOS users got totally screwed over by OS X?
Haha, when the guy supports your camp, you're too busy bashing him to realize it. YES, he's saying that no OS is perfect and that Vista and OSX have problems, too. Geeez, get you riled up and you swing at anything.
Well, necessity is the birth of innovation some say. I think your experience differs greating from those that have a distro tuned for their hardware.
Distros need to be tuned for your specific hardware in order for it to be an acceptable computing experience? How is that an advance in usability at all??
How do you qualify complex? Install new software?
How do you normally fix
No, iPods come with a copy of iTunes on CD.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Linux has two *big* advantages:
- you're in control of your computer, not Microsoft or Apple
- if you're having a problem, chances are some other Linux user has run into the same thing, and the answer may very well pop up, if you Google for it.
And, if you think Ubuntu's rough around the edges, you should have seen Slackware in 1993! Linux has come an awfully long way. Never thought I'd see the day when Linus's little project was being compared to Windows and MacOS.
Agreed. It's not their fault, but it's still not a benefit by any means. I'm in no way defending the licensing of the codecs, but as unfair as it is, it's a problem that ultimately exists on their OS.
this has been discussed here http://www.sibylleandthomas.info/drupal-5.2/node/19 a few days ago. The community needs to accept that some users just want to use a computer for their benefits (web, mail, etc) and are not interested by how they work. Do many people care about how their car works? no, they don't. some do. Computers are the same.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
Unless Linux geeks don't actually *want* Windows users to switch...
You hit the nail on the head. Linux geeks actually do NOT want that. They still see themselves as the "computer wizards" and want to be worshipped for their magic powers. And yet, they fear a million joe users bothering them to fix their PCs. Linux geeks want everybody to be as smart as they are so Linux can be run on every computer in the world. They're OS-centric instead of being user-centric. That's their problem.
I don't care if i have to wait for the Duke Nukem Forever release date, I'd rather wait for ReactOS v1.0 (an open source WinXP clone) than switch to Linux.
>>With respect to Automatix, no one told me about it either (that I recall?) but it was there in the menus easily findable.
;)
I have to say I've never had anyone tell me about appwiz.cpl either but I manage to add and remove windows programs just fine. As a matter of fact the one time I bought a pre-built windows PC they didnt tell you shit about how to get anything done.
Kwandar: I can see how this could read as sarcastic or in disagreement with your statement without the subtle voice inflections but I'm actually agreeing
You need to get your head examined. You're far too rational for this kind of discussion. RFTM, n00b. Or go wade through a thousand message board pages--then you'll be fit to discuss the perfection that is Linux!
I think XP's pointer ballistics are the reason why the mouse feels smoother under windows -- it implements something akin to friction which assists in targeting UI elements. I doubt the XFree86/Xorg server is designed to insert a really tunable 'user experience' layer between the physical mouse and the pointer on the screen beyond the simple 'xset m'. Try the x2vnc experiment I mention in the bug and experience for yourself how mac/windows/linux differ in their mouse->pointer handling -- maybe you won't notice the difference.
So you've not yet had a Windows user ask why their new DVD *won't* play in their PC and *will* play on their DVD player...?
Lucky you. :P We get about one a month.
Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
Ok; premise was "Is Linux Desktop ready for average Joe?" What does Waltman do - review an untuned version of linux for the software. Sabotage? Yes.
And I'm so far from a Linux zealot I can't tell you... Home office; W2K 4 installs, XP 2 installs, MacOS X 1 install, MacOS classic, 2 installs, Linux (nee Mandrake distro) 1 install... I use everything; I'm a zealot of nothing. But thanks for the label! In the last few weeks I've been tagged as a MacOS zealot, a Linux zealot, and a C++ zealot. Did I put anywhere in my message anything to show I'm a fan of linux, or did I question Waltman's journalism?
Call me a zealot.
/\/\icro/\/\uncher
And he is defining "work" as "being exactly like Microsoft Windows".
No, Ubuntu is NOT "free Microsoft Windows". And there is no reason other than him being an idiot to expect it to be.
So Ubuntu doesn't play mp3's out of the box. It DOES play
Does Windows play
Ubuntu is NOT "free Microsoft Windows". Do not expect it to be. Do not complain when it is not.
Understand WHY Ubuntu was written.
Can I legally give Ubuntu to 100 people without anyone being charged for it? Yes.
Can I do that with Microsoft Windows? No.
does XP "not work" because it cant play h.264 out of the box?
Well, that depends on what you expect from a consumer desktop OS. If you have an expectation that an OS is supposed to play "h.264", then no, it doesn't work. I've never heard of "h.264" before, and I can't imagine that most other people have, either. I'm speaking for normal people. If you want to pick random requirements, then we can easily argue that no OS being sold today is complete. I don't think it's any kind of stretch to say that most people know what MP3's are, have MP3's, and expect their PC to be able to play MP3's with no additional work on the user's part.
I don't respond to AC's.
Oh, pray do tell me, what does Automatix provide you that the little program under Applications called "Add/Remove" does not?
Automatix is a third-party script that can screw up your system pretty badly, and can even leave your system unbootable. The Ubuntu team in charge of the repositories has analyzed the script and found a huge number of rough measures taken by the authors (like killing dpkg), and thus it has stopped its support. Automatix is bad and does nothing Add/Remove or Synaptic can't do.
What *I* found funny is that Mossberg didn't even mention the tons of free applications that are available via Add/Remove or Synaptic... Many of the answers he was looking for (like the codecs needed to play mp3 files) are available a couple of clicks away via an idiotproof GUI.
My dad retired in the mid-90's and I got him a computer so he could communicate with his friends and keep busy.
Having him Red Hat 6.2 was of course no option.
After years of prodding by him about The Linux, I finally got around to installing Kubuntu 7.04 because whenever he would see my laptop and use it, he'd mention that he saw no difference.
This year we finally got my mom a laptop and she never used a computer, rarely venturing to my dad's den.
I went with PCLinuxOS.
And you know what? It was a breeze.
The bulk of my dad's use is Firefox (he LOVES add'ons) and Thunderbird, which he had on his XP machine as well, so no change there.
Open Office 2 is still his word processor. He uses Skype like before as well as his Yahoo, ICQ and Gtalk IM's which we switched from Trillian to Pidgin which he didnt find painful. Watching videos with VLC is the same on both OS. Instead of the Winamp, we explored teh available audio/mp3 players trying to find one which had nice big buttons for him to see.
He watches DVD's and even burns CD and DVD's which he never did before.
He has recorded himself on Audacity recently for the first time.
The buttons are exactly the same on his desktop as they were on the old XP, he even has the same background so its virtually the same to him.
The only thing that took a bit of time was going away from the Windows Explorer/My Computer which he knew by heart but nonetheless, they are all based on the same principles.
My father's computer use didnt change because of the switch because he is using almost the same programs and the ones he changed offer more options and take very little time to get used to (how different is software really one from the other?).
The move for my non-techie dad who does his thing as before was pain-free.
My mom being a perfect newbie was probably easier to teach because she is starting with a fresh plate so Im not even going to talk about that.
Over the past 9 months I have installed about 6 new Linux distros on the computers of family members who need 'tech support' but since I dont know The Windows (I have an XP partition on a dual boot...games baby, games....) and all are for people over the age of 60 and people who used computers before.
The usability experience has been exactly the same (everyone chose KDE over GNOME) and the problems we came across had to do with new printers and a scanner. (digital cameras were a breeze) All these older relatives found the transition easy and two wanted to keep a dual boot because of games and windows only app (which we managed to run through VM).
>Everyone with any sense knows that Linux isn't a great choice
I dont know.... maybe youre the one without the common sense.
You come to a tech site and you are having more problems than 8 retirees with limited knowledge?
Really?
I would accept that Linux isnt for everyone yet but so far my experience has been that for the 90% of the people who do the same web activities, The Linux is fine and easy to use.
Dont forget, the people i am referring to are clueless about how to install a program, how to got in that ADD/Remove Program options in Windows, install a printer or so on. Ask anyone who works at the retail level, the knowledge of the average compuer buyer is low which is how come people will pay 60$ to get a HD installed if they dont have 'someone' they know who can do it.
Those people dont venture past what they do every day and have no interest in fiddling whether in Windows or Linux.
(it might sound as simple but how many people do you know over the years who tell you their system is slow and you realize that their C drive has 10megs of space left on a 160G HD).
I have concrete proof how easy Linux is with non-techies, you so far managed to talk about your wife's dongle in XP and how Linux is not good and as only proof you use "Everyone with any sense knows".
Not only are you a troll who cant back anything up but throw in a jab about the everyone else who doesnt agree with you.
Id sayd f**k you and your wife but something tells me that that's another piece of machinery you dont know how to use.
As for Linux, women arent for the totally clueless.
Oh wait, Linux is!
Lyle Seave
Windows Media Player does a not bad job finding most of the of codecs I run across. Is it perfect? Hell no. Good enough? Usually. Quicktime/iTunes (pisses me off that they are so tied together these days). Has something similar.
To be fair, he's not reviewing Ubuntu, he's reviewing Dell's configuration of Ubuntu. A clean install of windows can't do a lot of the things he complains about the Ubuntu system not being able to do either. However, when Dell ships a Windows desktop, it comes preloaded in a way that it works out of the box with pre-configured software for common tasks, like watching DVD's, syncing your iPod (assuming you bought it with the system), etc. Blaming these faults on the OS is wrong. If Dell had configured all the software to the degree that they configure Windows systems before shipping, the result would be different. Similiarly, if you ship a PC where you slapped the base Windows OS on it without installing all the applications that Dell PCs normally come with, the normal user would have an equally bad time trying to get their system to do everything they wanted (arguably harder on Windows, cause Ubuntu's package manager beats downloading/installing each application manually any day).
Overrated Moderation: This posts sucks... because.
As the owner of a new Ubuntu Inspiron 6400 from Dell UK it was a bit of a mixed bag in terms of hardware support out of the box. On the plus side the sound, modem, card reader and wireless all worked out of the box which made it worthwhile for me. On the down side the screen resolution was set to 1024x768 rather than the native 1200x800 and I had to install the intel driver and add the mode to the xorg.conf. All of which was a little disappointing even if I did know what to do. I've not had a problem with my touchpad - well, no more than is usual with touchpads at any rate.
In terms of software, it seemed to be vanilla Ubuntu which lasted all of five minutes before I got busy with Synaptic and a backup of my old laptop.
It's just a shame that the display resolution didn't work out of the box - I did log it with customer services and, hopefully, they'll get this right in future releases.
Stupid flounders!
System > Preferences > Touchpad?
Maybe it should be easier to find, but it's there.
Strikes me as an error on dells end. I've never had that happen, much less consistently. In my experience, Ubuntu only slightly delays the use of these codecs to warn you of the legal issues, then makes it very easy to install them. They may come standard with other systems, but if you're getting your entire operating system for free, having to wait an extra 30 seconds and read a pop up to play an mp3 seems silly. I do agree with his criticism that calling the codecs "bad" and "ugly" is a tad harsh. Again, this must be a problem with his/Dell's setup. I've used a variety of cameras and SD cards with Ubuntu and all worked out of the box. As far as iPods, I've not used the iPod management software with Rythmbox (or whatever comes with Gnome) but Amarok works wonderfully. For downloadable videos, I think this is a non-issue because the codecs are generally very easy to install. For things requiring w32codecs it can be a pain, but those codecs can be purchased legally through Fluendo for much less than the cost of Windows. It would be nice if they were included by default, but I think you have to expect that when your operating system is free, you'll have to pay to get some proprietary features.The most legitimate complaint I see is that there is no DVD playing software in Ubuntu. I'm not aware of any software you can buy to legally watch DVD's on Ubuntu. I see that as a pretty significant roadblock, and hope it gets remedied in the near future.
Then neither does Windows XP. Windows media player does not include a DVD decoder, for legal reasons.
True. I know plenty of fanboys that would disagree with his assessment of the competition
...especially Windows, whose latest iteration, Vista, is disappointing in many ways. (from TFA).Can't you just take GNU/Linux for what it is instead of measuring it against Windows. Should we have criticized Korn for not fitting into some existing genre? No, we just took those first albums for what they were and accepted that it was new and different.
My main desktop is Ubuntu now and I find I get a lot more done if I'm not whining that I don't have Windows Whiz-Bang Feature X. I don't have any of the problems from the Windows world anymore. My computer never crashes, it never hangs, never reboots by itself. It doesn't force me to update when I'm in the middle of something. It never messes up my icons, never changes my folder display preferences for no reason. More than one person can use remote desktop at a time. I have all my favorite applications, Gimp, Firefox, etc at my fingertips. The only time I think about Windows anymore is when someone mentions that their computer is broken - again, or when someone tries to tell me that I need Windows because it's impossible to use Linux for everything. My system works just fine, thanks.
I personally just switch from Ubuntu(the past 2 years) to Vista(3 months of use) and bought myself an 24" Imac and I couldn't be happier.
This fossil makes some great sincere points, that should be acknowledged and considered by the open source community, if there goal is actually to be utilized by a larger base.
Typically after reading many slashdot posts and replies, it does not seem that this is their actual goal. It usually seems the goal simply revolves around superiority.
I'd like to see a simplified solution for Wireless Drivers in Linux. Especially for some of the more common ones like Intel. Currently, it is too messy for average users.
Not really....I have tried to install Ubuntu 7.01 on my Toshiba laptop and its not really a useful time spent. The installation went super smooth but my wireless n/w does not work and even my external bluetooth mouse does not work. I tried to install bluetooth drivers but even after couple of hours, I could not get the front and back button to work. Also I had to muck around on command line a bit which majority or common-man users would not like to do.
Ubuntu is a good start but definitely has a long way to go before getting a size able chunk of users to adopt it. I am not sure of Mac but Win XP is surely not bad if you keep the anti-virus and the firewall (even XP default firewall is ok) upto date.
Your attitude exemplifies one of the main reasons why Linux will remain a niche OS.
The cake is a pie
Or at least include a nice addition to the desktop, a warm and fuzzy web page that describes the options to install support for .mp3's and DVD's. "I can't play mp3's and DVD's. Why?", which gives a short blurb that because Ubuntu is a free operating system it doesn't come with support for proprietary codecs preinstalled. Include a small blurb that WinXP can't play DVD's out of the box. Then a link to easyubuntu or automatix, or even the CLI method for advanced users. There could even be a disclaimer with big, jolly, candy-like button that says "I agree". If there's anything with which a Windows or Mac user is familiar, it's that.
"I evaluated it strictly from the point of view of an average user, someone who wouldn't want to enter text commands, hunt the Web for drivers and enabling software, or learn a whole new user interface."
Fair enough, Every Windows and to some extent Mac user still has to do this, and a polite but firm 'WTF?!' Every iteration of Windows, MS Office, and Macintosh requires learning a new interface.
"And Dell's Web site for its Ubuntu computers warns that these machines are for "for advanced users and tech enthusiasts."
It kind of make the article one huge moot point.
"And plenty of people reading this have had lots of frustrations with the two better-known operating systems, especially Windows, whose latest iteration, Vista, is disappointing in many ways."
A good sport.
"Average Ubuntu users are likely to have to wade through online forums, often written in technical language, to get help."
The Dell disclaimer make this an apple and oranges discussion, or Apple and Ubuntu. I've been able to find the answer to my questions within 5 minutes on the forums. Usually with step by step instructions.
The party's over
You most certainly poised yourself as a linux zealot, so don't get all defensive now.
And you still don't get it, or at least, refuse to admit it.
Sabotage? You are really insisting on that? You're really going to call what he reviewed an untuned version of linux and claim that as sabotage?
Ok, you tell me then. From the POV of the Average User, just what Linux pre-install SHOULD be reviewed if not a Dell laptop pre-installed with Ubuntu?
What, should he have come to you? And that would have been representative of your Average User's experience how?
Not sure what your agenda is, but whatever it is, it doesn't make sense at all.
No Comment.
The new ones don't.
I have about ten years of experience with installing linux distributions (to see what the latest hype/fuss is about) and usually discarding them after the novelty wears off. I'm still a windows guy but my dependencies to win32 specific stuff are fairly limited now. The reason I stick with it is the usual mix of games and a handful of stuff I'd prefer not to be separated from (none of it from MS).
/etc/network/interfaces and hoping the network manager picks up the changes. I had loads of other problems too. Part of my network trouble caused the installer to hang indefinitely "scanning the mirrors". I had to switch to a console to kill some processes to make it progress. Finally Gparted gave me a pretty good scare at some point by throwing really obscure errors at me for no good reason (made me think my windows partition was gone when it wasn't). In general using the back button in the installer seems a bad idea. Gparted gets awfully confused by that.
Anyway, I think the review is spot on. Ubuntu has many rough edges and it fixes them by removing the functionality needed to work around them. Basically out of the box, all my hardware was misconfigured (which is excusable for a OS aimed at nerds like me). To fix it I found myself making round trips to the ubuntu forums to figure out which packages to install and what tools to use to finish the job the installer should have done. Specifically, like on so many computers Ubuntu botched the monitor detection (upcoming release should fix that). No big deal but the tool to help you fix it is not installed (probably for usability reasons). Same for alsa config which messed up choosing from three sound cards by redirecting all sound to my usb headset (nice to know it works though) instead of my audigy card which is plugged into a motherboard with yet another sound related chipset. I needed to install a tool to set the default card. Finally, I found the network manager to be a little too obnoxious. I had some issues with a buggy driver for my SIS190 network card. The network manager only got in the way when trying to 'configure' the network, which boils down to editing
Then there is the stuff included in the default install. Rhythmbox crashed a few times on me. That could be one of those pesky mp3 plugins it installed for me. The 3d effects were indeed useless (wise choice to not enable that by default). My first ubuntu update (before installing any software) failed due to a bug in the font server package. Luckily the obscure error produced the right hit in Google along with a bunch of touch commands to give some files the right timestamp. The bug was months old.
I eventually managed to fix everything that ubuntu did wrong and after fixing it is a pretty nice system though not significantly nicer than other distributions I have tried in recent years. So I have to agree here that it is just not for end users. Claiming it is, is just not realistic. Any of the problems I encountered would prove unfixable for novice users. Ubuntu pretends usability by not including notoriously hard to use but essential tools. Unfortunately that means you are on your own when you venture outside the rather narrow set of cases where it manages to configure things automatically. I'm sure there are cases where ubuntu gets everything right and I'm sure it is getting better with each release but from what I've seen it just isn't there yet.
Jilles
This is off topic, but I think it deserves a mention.
I RTFA'd and I'm wondering how it is all of the most negative comments about Ubuntu/Linux are modded way up? Reasonable comments that ding Ubuntu and Walt are barely modded and comments that heavily ding Walt aren't modded up at all.
Full disclosure: I dinged Walt, but I'm not talking about my comment specifically. It's all of the others too.
Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
Some of the complaints in the article are valid. Sound applet crashing for example. However, most of these things don't come in a default Windows install either, they are things that Dell installs extra.
For example DVD playing is NOT in a default Windows install, it might be in a shipped DELL Windows PC however. Also, Windows downloads codecs automatically too, (I'm not sure why there is a criticism here). Obviously the recognizing of the iPod is a fault of Ubuntu. But not being able to sync with it... well.. does it say on the iPod packaging that Linux is supported? Surely the complaint should be with Apple? Judging from Apple's recent actions I doubt Linux support is one of their priorities.
The way I see it most of the complaints can be easily solved by DELL:
1. Pre-load Banshee instead of Rhythmbox. Banshee syncs iPods amazingly well, of course this means a custom Ubuntu build though.
2. Install the restricted codecs before shipping.
3. Pay someone so they can legally install the DVD codec stuff (I don't know the details of the law but surely there is some way they can ship this)
4. Install that touchpad control that was mentioned earlier in the comments
That fixes all but the 2 minor bugs (applet and recognizing of the camera/ipod) both of which are probably fixed now, or will be in Gutsy.
Lastly, what about playing DVDs? Will Windows Media Player play DVDs yet? Last time I tried on an XP box, I needed to use Media Player Classic or VLC. That's far from working "out of the box".
On my work-supplied Dell laptop running Windows XP, I never could find the configuration option to change the fact that, whenever I rested my wrists heavily at the base of the laptop, to either side of the touchpad, the mouse cursor would jump around, window focus would change, or I'd launch an application. Damn Windows!
One of Mossberg's complaints is about the lack of available codecs for playing back common media types. Unfortunately he seems to blame the developers for this, when it's really a legal problem. With a community-supported distro, there is essentially no one to negotiate and pay the license/royalty fees for nonfree codecs. This leaves the user in the lamentable situation of having to find and "illegally" download/install the relevant codecs.
If Dell is serious about desktop linux, why not take the lead on this and fix the problem? Dell is a big enough company, with a large enough user base, that it should be able to negotiate the relevant license/royalty fees for common codecs. They should just offer their own ubuntu repo with dell-supported software, including codecs, special drivers, and anything else needed to make for a stellar user experience.
The touchpad problem Mossberg experienced is clearly not acceptable shipping from a commercial entity like Dell, and I think Mossberg's other complaints fall under the grass-is-always-greener, it's-hard-to-switch territory.
No, the vast majority of software designers need to learn how to design software in such a way that computers become the useful, easy-to-use tools they have the potential of being.
Have you tried Media Player Classic to play DVD's? It's a free download from SourceForge, not $45.
As far as I can tell, EasyUbuntu is dead. There's no release for Feisty, the website hasn't been updated since early this year, and no plans showing for Gutsy.
I wasn't that impressed with Automatix anyway. It's easier to just use Add/Remove menu item, IMO, and you can just install the nonfree codec pack as well.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
Sure, there were codecs and programs he wished were available by default, but notice that he _didn't_ spend any time uninstalling the adware or bonusware that Dell and other OEM outfits typically bundle with new laptops. I presume from the article that such annoying software is not bundled into their Ubuntu offerings, and that's a win, in my book.
Dell may be well-served by pre-installing common codecs and a decent DVD player by default, but the two minutes it takes to install such things under Ubuntu strike me as far preferable to the time I typically spend 'cleaning' a default XP machine from Dell (read: formating the drive and starting the XP install from scratch).
Their development schedule forces them to put out buggy, crashy software time and time again. There is virtually no hard freeze time to iron out bugs so each release has a partially cooked feel to it. New users can't tell when something is a bug and when they screwed it up themselves. They might as well be running debian sid. New users do not need bleeding edge. They need stable.
I've been telling new users to use PCLinuxOS for a year now. It's just as user friendly as ubuntu and stable at the same time.
Mod parent down.
He is karma prostituting himself here just as he is in this post: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=300027&cid=20639785
"There is no control panel for adjusting the way the touch pad works, and I found it so sensitive that I was constantly launching programs and opening windows accidentally by touching the thing."
I imagine that the touch click "feature" causes much data loss, typos, wasted time and miss clicks.
I do not understand why this bug is ever enabled by default.
I consider touch-clicking a hardware malfunction, which requires a software fix.
I wish the malfunction was just fixed.
Uh, yes, I am insisting its sabotage. Because Walt misrepresents himself and his intention. Because this is a bad example of "is linux ready for mainstream". All OS have issues.
And sure, I get defensive, but I don't you are any more open minded or unbiased (or compromising) then I am.
/\/\icro/\/\uncher
Not anymore they don't.
Nope, no "magic box" theory here. Computers have been given a pass for far too long. We expect our cars to work without any knowledge of mechanics on the drivers' parts. We turn a tv on expecting to get our digital cable HD content, without having any idea of how that works. Humans have been soaking in RF over AM and FM bands for what, a hundred years or so, yet less than 5% of the population can even tell you how a radio works. It is time for the computer industry to be held to the same standard as everything else.
sigh ... you beat me to it.
Windows doesn't come with pre-installed DVD codecs. You get those when you buy DVD Playing software.
Concerning the iPod : why should Apple release iTunes for Linux? Wasn't there even a story a few days ago about making it more difficult to use iPods without iTunes? The solution? buy any other mp3 player that's not linked to proprietary software.
and about MP3's : last time I installed Ubuntu 7.04 and tried to play some files it didn't have the codecs for, it asked me whether I wanted to automatically install them. How difficult is THAT?
bbye,
Sammy
"DRM is like the Ford Pinto: it's a smooth ride, right up the point at which it explodes and ruins your day."-C.Doctorow
I have concrete proof how easy Linux is with non-techies, you so far managed to talk about your wife's dongle in XP and how Linux is not good and as only proof you use "Everyone with any sense knows".
You have no proof. The only thing that you have proven is that you can troll and make personal attacks on myself and my wife while you sit alone and forever unmarried in your parents' basement thrilled to be giving unnecessary tech support to numerous individuals in your family and calling that evidence.
The success of a third-party install (and don't tell us that you had nothing to setup on each machine b/c we all know you'd be lying) and an exaggerated "eight" anecdotal experiences with family members isn't proof. The varied content of my posts over the last 5 of 10 total years on Slashdot advocating that we give up on the "Year of Linux on the Desktop" bullshit is.
This makes me disappointed that Dell and Canonical didn't work harder to get the out-of-the-box experience into tip-top shape.
1) Why haven't they fixed the volume crashing problem?
2) A big company like Dell could volume-license the patented media technology for a bargain and include those codecs in the release.
3) They should have at least done a comparison with the touchpad sensitivity and set it up to be the same as the equivalent Windows machine out of the box.
I've installed Ubuntu on my friend's Dell laptop after not being able to set up the wireless network in Windows within 30 seconds. I told him I could download a patch for windows.. it was Ubuntu. He only bugs me on rare occasions about his computer problems. My cousin with the same computer and Windows on it bugs me far more often. Once a linux computer is working, it generally stays working. My parents' computers are virtually unusable now with Windows XP and Windows XP media centre editions.
I am sick and tired of people telling me that Windows is easier to use. It's not! My parents have been vacationing with me for a week, and they've been happily using my Ubuntu workstation at home without my guidance at all. They've plugged in their camera and downloaded pictures.. posted them on the web.. it all just worked! And.. Microsoft office is a piece of junk. I don't understand why the masses still support Microsoft. Their products are HORRIBLE! I've uninstalled office from my computer at work, because I was so sick of Word mangling my documents and Excel crashed non-stop. I know that Open Office isn't that much better yet, but why do people even support Microsoft? Word Perfect may not be free or OSS, but it is FAR superior to Word. Slashdotters.. let your companies know that you can't stand Microsoft anymore. From what I've heard about Vista, I hope I never have to use it during its existence.
Cheers,
Greg
I think his write up is representative of someone who thinks computers and their operating systems should be Windows compatible instead of getting educated to learn that the choices one makes always require a learning curve. He also seems to be a OSX buff and is rather set in his ways. One would always expect with a new system and new operating system to have to jump in with both feet first. I don't think his complaints were strong enough to warrant his conclusion without him being biased before the article was even written. When you consider that gnome is very user friendly (albeit with a ton of bugs that they could easily fix--and fixing those bugs would make them feel like new features) and quite easy to use compared to any GUI based OS. He's also very much off his rocker when it comes to saying that the user has to issue commands by typing into a terminal. This is not necessary when you learn how to get things done with the GUI. Honestly though, of those few that you may issue doing so only makes it easier, not more difficult. Though I have crossed paths with some command line programs that are way out there and the authors should be shot (just joking). There are excessive command line programs but they are generally not required to work with the computer.
He also misses the boat on Open Source in that there are 10s of thousands of free software programs whereas almost everything, every thing under OS X is something that costs you money even the little utilities. So, the small complaints about the sensitive touch pad, some driver issues (which is prevalent in every OS--especially OS X--as I have used it for many years), and command line commands, are greatly outweighed by the massive benefit of the online free support, the works out of the box nature of the distros (in general), and the fact that there are huge numbers of programs ready and available for anyone to use.
If Dell is not fine tuning those systems and just dumping them on the market without the proper drivers then something is wrong at Dell and not with Linux.
Now we've read lots of reviews in the past by newbs as well as the educated (about linux and other OSes) and it is abundantly clear that this guy is very biased and centered on the "IE and Safari" against Firefox mindset. Anyone educated knows the issues with IE and knows how to write up reviews. Anyone educated knows about Safari and about Firefox and knows how to write reviews about them. This guy is not educated about Linux and he's questionable in his overall knowledge of the user demands. Essentially he's not educated and he's biased.
You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
If there's any way to get video playback working on the Dell/Ubunutu 1420n without awful flickering and tearing, I haven't found it yet. I don't give a damn about 3D bling if I can't even watch a video properly. I don't mind poking around in config files, but there doesn't seem to be any poking around that'll fix this.
My shiny new Core 2 Duo laptop shouldn't get its ass handed to it in the video playback department by my old Compaq P3-733, and yet it unquestionably does. That's very, very annoying, even more annoying than the default touchpad settings that you can't change without editing xorg.conf. Sure there's 3 gui utilities to choose from to configure the touchpad - they all require you to edit xorg.conf as well. But at least there's something you can do about the touchpad. Video playback, not so much.
Oppressing an entire population is never cheap.
--Jeckler (/. Beta IS GARBAGE!)
The "main" repository and the base install certainly leave out legally objectionable packages, but I wouldn't say that installing them from the package management requires any more effort than getting Ogg Vorbis support on a Mac, or hounding the web for most of the basic codecs that are missing from XP by default. I'm not sure if the biggest problem here is simply setting your criteria to utmost divine perfection.
... I feel Linux is losing ground in its efforts to take the desktop. Most of the Linux users I have known now own at least one Macintosh. I realize this is completely subjective, however Macintosh's market share growth is not. I believe I just recently saw an article where Apple overtook Gateway in US Laptop sales. Apple is filling up the Windows Alternative niche. The new finder in Leopard looks amazing (mostly refering to the icons and the preview application). Apple knows how to use its consumer products to boost computer sales, and Apple has recaptured its spark. As Apple solidifies its number two position with their increasing marketshare, this will be reflected by an increasing number of non-windows developers devoting time to OSX projects and diminishing the amount of time spent on Linux. I think that Linux has the potential to leap forward, but it will take a company doing something radical and new. Look at the console market, Nintendo recaptured the spotlight with the Wii... however had they failed and sales were the same as the PS2 / Xbox / Cube generation you would have seen Nintendo whither into irrelevance. I just feel in this world of global productization, there is little room for #3.
Just the fact that Walt Mossberg reviewed Ubuntu is a huge win for Ubuntu.
He should have reviewed PCLinuxOS - has all codecs pre-installed, as well as Flash and Java in the browser. You can do all this stuff in Ubuntu of course, but it's a big hassle for the novice user.
PCLinuxOS is great for people who have never used a computer before. I've set it up on old junked computers many times in under 20 minutes a pop and no one has complained - they think it's Windows.
The review wasn't fair in my opinion. By comparison, I tried and failed to install Windows XP on some of these same machines as I could not get its ethernet to work without a long lost driver disk from Dell. I've been on computers for 20 years now and I could not figure it out - a novice user cannot possibly install Windows these days. It must come pre-installed or they are screwed.
I wonder if this doesn't still make that assumption that using a command prompt is something the everyday home computer user is familiar with?
I'd say the average Windows user (no call for using the word "dumb" here I think) is used to connecting a USB peripheral, having a "New Hardware Found" message pop up, and the peripheral sorting itself out. If there's software to be installed, the default expectation is: put the CD/DVD into the drive, wait a few seconds for autorun to kick in, and click OK a few times. If autorun's switched off, they might go as far as doubleclcking "My Computer", then doubleclicking the CD drive's icon, and doubleclicking Setup.exe's icon after that.
I'd say anyone going so down and dirty as to actually type arcane commands ("D:\setup.exe") into the "Start/Run" menu item is already a little outside the mainstream. That's the real target for widespread acceptance.
And why isn't your sister installing her own software on her computer?
Average users shouldn't have to go to law school to figure out why their software doesn't work.
Well damn, average people shouldn't have to go to law school to figure out how to obey the law either, but that doesn't stop the government from making the laws or arresting people for breaking them.
River bed's thataway. Go fill 'er up, and make it extra salty.
I think the point he's trying to convey is that a new computer couldn't do what he set out to do, without delving into the technical aspects. Automatix and Easy Ubuntu were not included with what he bought from Dell.
Whereas if he had bought an OSX or XP machine, such things would have been dealt with on a clickthrough basis, without the user so much as having to think about whether to click "ok" or "cancel".
I love linux, it can just become counterproductive when you spend as much of your time trying to find drivers and workarounds for compatibility issues as you do actually accomplishing what you want to accomplish.
I bought a Fujitsu Siemens laptop for my wife. It came with Vista. (It has Fedora too now).
Out of the box, Windows as it was installed has no control panel to adjust the sensitivity of the touch pad, and it's infuriatingly difficult to use as a result (keeps on jumping elsewhere when you're typing etc).
Out of the box, Vista had a non-native resolution for the screen (1024x768 instead of 1440x900). (Fedora got it right straight away.)
So this stuff happens with Windows laptops too but they have a lower barrier to entry as the currently accepted OS.
These issues can and should be fixed and if done consistently would help Linux's image a lot.
While an mp3 or video decoder license mentioned might be inappropriate for Ubuntu The Free OS in its basic form, Dell has a responsibility to package it with Ubuntu The OEM Desktop, and if need be, pay for it.
People in Soviet Russia, however, appear to be afflicted with amusing juxtapositions of the aforementioned situation
Except for the fact that he hasn't come down on Ubuntu at all, actually, he had a lot of good to say about it. From a mainstream perspective, that is one of the best Linux reviews to date.
His stance is simply that while good, it's just not quite at the point where your average user will be happy with their purchase once they get home when compared to Windows or OSX. And in that, he would be correct.
The sabotage going on, if any, is your insistence on contriving every conceivable aspect of the review under your own pretenses.
And again you'd be wrong about my ability to compromise or be open minded. Point in case: Prior to reading this article, I would have still stated that there is no Linux distro that is even close to ready for your average user, and I've used Ubuntu. After reading this article, I'll have to re-evaluate the latest Ubuntu as it really does sound like while not quite there, it is now very very close. And that is a good thing IMHO.
No Comment.
Give yourself a big hand. You have managed to Totally Miss The Point.
It's petulant morons like you who keep Linux from getting anywhere. Blame the user, stick your thumbs in your ears, and pretend everything is perfect. Great job, retard. Hey, aren't you wanted on digg.com? They need your oh-so-clever "linix iz teh roxx0rs adn windoze is teh crappie" drivel.
Stupid luser mongoloid!
Every time I have ever looked at the directions to install software on windows it says go to start and run. it may just be the software I am getting.
I smoked pot once. But I DID NOT inhale. Will you hire me?
1) Non-free codecs and some applications that you cited above aren't there not "because of religious beliefs" (whatever that means)
You should perhaps read the Ubuntu promise to customers:
Ubuntu CDs contain only free software applications; we encourage you to use free and open source software, improve it and pass it on.
That sort of says it all.
2) With one package installation those problems are solved.
That is not true. Not even close to being true.
Out of the box Feisty Fawn Firefox will not pass the Java test (that's one download), will not play a Flash movie (that's another download), will not play an mp3 (that's several other downloads) and will not play a commercial DVD (that's a couple more downloads).
The fact that all these different downloads have to be found and installed is not intuitive for the new user or Windows user.
I have been a Linux user for over 10 years and the first thing I found out is I couldn't just drop into a console and build and install these things. I had to learn the Ubunto way.
Why not a page prominently displayed during installation asking if these apps/codecs should be installed and have a big button to press saying YES!
No, I see this as primarily a political decision, if you like.
Until Ubuntu takes some sort of affirmative action to help it's new users play their mp3s and watch their DVDs we will continue to see the same kind of review as we have seen here.
7.01? Magic build of some sort?
Actually, "out of the box" codec support is one of my biggest complaints with desktop manufacturers. If they are going to load the thing up with crap, it would be nice if they at least included major common formats:
Quicktime (Including modern codecs like h.264, not just the original sorenson)
Windows Media
Flash
Shockwave
DivX/Xvid
DVD (MPEG-2 video)
MP3
MP4
Realplayer
I want to be able to go to any random video site and watch the fricking movie, not get an error that it couldn't find the proper codec. *I* can find the correct one, but my grandma can't. They're the first things I put on a new system after I've locked down the main security holes.
The reason web video in its current craze looks like crap is because the only player that they can reasonably assume people can figure out how to configure is flash, and flash video current looks like crap at low bitrates. If developers could count on people being able to watch H.264 on youtube things would be so much nicer.
done by Dell. They just installed the basic Ubuntu and shipped it with the system at the step where it asks for a user name and all that. I had to spend significant time configuring the NVidia drivers, sound card, and audio/video codecs (probably a few hours altogether). I would bet that it would take days for someone new to linux to figure out how to do all that. For shame Dell... How hard would it have been to configure Ubuntu with the right drivers at least and then ghost that system onto every box you shipped.
Another interesting note about comparing it to Windows and OS X... I installed Windows XP SP2 in a dual boot configuration so I could play some games. Good god almighty, setting up windows was painful. I must have visited a dozen different sites, downloading 200MB in drivers, before I got everything working. The damned network card didn't even work after the initial install. I had to boot into Ubuntu, save the network driver to a USB key and then boot back into Windows. Also, I've had the system set up for about 3 weeks now and I still can't get the sound to work in windows. I've looked all over the web for the right windows sound driver with 0 luck. As for OSX, I still haven't been able to even install it! Oh wait, OSX only runs on Apple hardware... My forgot. Seriously though, if anyone know how to get the sound working in windows on an XPS 410 box, please let me know!
For those of you who are touting this story as a demonstration of linux's failure on the desktop, sod off. This wasn't a failure on the part of linux or ubuntu. This was a failure on the part of Dell in not providing a fully installed and configured system.
As a review for the Dell XPS 410:
After a Windows XP fresh install:- Network card: not working
- Video card: working but at 1024x768 with no 3d acceleration
- Sound card: not working (still not working, even after weeks of trying to find a driver)
After a Ubuntu fresh install:1, 2, 3, 4, 5... That's the combination on my luggage!
Automatix is absolutely not the "software to install programs" on Ubuntu. The software to install programs on Ubuntu systems is called Synaptic. Automatix is a third party tool that corrupts Ubuntu systems so they won't upgrade properly.
-- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
Gutsy Gibbon (Ubuntu 7.10) has much better bluetooth support. Both my mouse and headset now work. Mouse required a lot of tweaking in 7.04. To be fair, it required a lot of tweaking under XP, too.
Have you used windows lately and run into the "missing codec" type of error? Windows does NOT seek out the codec and automagically install it for you. You have to go through the same damn rigamarole that you do with Linux.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5... That's the combination on my luggage!
It amazes me the lengths that Apple will go to to avoid admitting that their clinging to the single-button mouse for so long was misguided. First they design the Mighty Mouse, a two-button mouse masquerading as a one-button mouse (with the side buttons and scroll wheel in exactly the wrong places, but that's another story). It's an incredibly convoluted solution to a pretty simple problem - simple, that is, if you're not as pig-headed as Apple. And then, as you say, they don't even enable the second button out of the box!
Honestly, Apple, it's OK to admit you got it wrong, or at least that times have changed since 1984. We'll forgive you.
Maybe one day they'll accept that being able to resize windows by dragging areas other than just the bottom right-hand corner is useful, too. I live in hope.
But that's where the problem is. Who cares if something can deal with ogg files when they're pretty much never needed? I've owned my powerbook for three years and haven't had the need to install that codec. Let me clarify: 3 years. No ogg. Anywhere. If I had to dig for a codec for mp3 files, however, I'd be (rightly) pissed off!
You read the instructions first? ;-)
If you look at the Dell website it tells you it is for more advanced users and probably won't work for mom and pop. Everyone else in the world also states that you need to be a little bit more savvy to run it, but you can understand it if you want to. Now my question... If everyone in the world that is involved with this has already stated that it is not ready for mainstream use, including the company selling the laptops. Why do we need a review saying that it is not ready for mainstream use? Seems redundant to me and more like a fluff article. Also if someone is not ready to try a new GUI interface and has used windows why would you buy a unbuntu laptop? I only bring this up because of the absurd comment the author made about people who aren't ready for a new interface shouldn't get it. I'm betting if they aren't ready for a new interface they've not even begun to look this direction for their OS. In any case the article is just fluff that has no real point. Bravo to the mainstream media for taking what Dell stated so eloquently in two lines and making into a thousand word dissertation. Oh BTW last time I checked you still had to manually update codecs for media player also.
Mossberg expects/wants users to stay dumb and ignorant of actual computer use. Maybe what he wants is a general purpose appliance everyone magically understands how to operate without opening the manual.
/etc/X11/xorg.conf and /etc/hosts instead of just needing to know the section and field to change. This is simple shit IMO but if you can't keep one hand on the mouse, these people are lost.
IMO, people don't understand what a computer is, businesses don't train employees on even the basic of computer tasks, and all they end up figuring out is what sequence of buttons to click to get a task done or started. Pure memorization and that's if you're lucky. I recently heard someone tell me of a business person they needed to get a spreadsheet from before a software product could be pre-configured and delivered. They recieved a printout of the document and they found there were a couple of items left off the document. So, they asked if those could be updated and resent. The person didn't know that the file could be saved. That's right, every document ever written on the computer was printed and discarded when the word processor or spreadsheet app was closed. This was a contractor for the DoD and not a young school kid.
So Mossberg should be talking about how dumb users are instead of how even simple tasks are difficult for such users. It's hard to believe people used to use DOS hearing how often people keep crying about having to change/edit a text file to change how something works. I guess it's just too hard to teach these people since they can only seem to learn key sequences, not concepts. Therefore, they'd have to learn every key sequence to change say,
Mossberg should be showing them how easy it is to add this stuff and if learned, how easy it is to add thousands of things to their systems for free. IMO.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
no but the dumb ass grandma windows user does.
I smoked pot once. But I DID NOT inhale. Will you hire me?
No. It means they want their stuff to work with no maintenance and hassle. What's so hard to understand about that?
No. It is the darling of many techies and IT managers because it does its job for people who know how to work it. It does require either a more technical expertise or a like of tinkering, because otherwise you can't get things to work. To get Ubuntu working on my santa rosa macbook pro I need to boot to the terminal, edit a config file, download and install video and power management drivers, then download, compile, and install sound drivers from source. If you truly want Linux to be better, make it so that people don't need to do this. Someone in the Ubuntu forums has started getting wifi info from the community so that auto-detection of wifi can be done, but that is only one aspect of installing Linux. People arn't going to switch from something familiar (Windows) to something foreign (Linux) without that foreign being much better. You may have to download a bunch of exe's and install to get the same thing working in XP, but thats what people are familiar with, so they put up with it.
No. Thats you putting words in his mouth.
He's not claiming to be an average user. He's evaluating it from the point of view of an average user.
Which he does. Almost immediately ac
from rather than enhancing the reputation and usefulness of Linux.
/. to RTFA, but it is funny how when someone reviews a distro and has a legitimate complaint, the first reaction is to call him "stupid"--Let me pose an alternate question: "Why anyone believe a guy who doesn't even understand that the option he's talking about isn't included on Dell's distro?"
Let me be blunt: Every time a raging Linux nutjob craps all over someone looking into Linux, that's a loss for Linux, not a "win" for leet haxors. I've said this numerous times, but it's not all or nothing. Linux can be both a good operating system AND have some deficiencies that need to be addressed before it's ready for non-technical folks to use. Out of the box, Windows can be both fairly easy to use and a security danger of massive proportions. Real life, unlike WoW or HALO, contains many shades of gray. Acting like a Democrat talking about President Bush (or a Republican villifying "defeatists") is not the way to make progress on issues.
Further, these attacks completely turn off reasonable people who would like to see Linux succeed. If someone less-than-100%-geeky asks me about Linux, I'm always hesitant to recommend it because I know that the first time they have troubles and hit up a "support" forum they're going to get flamed and/or jumped on. Yes, attacking folks looking for information about Linux as "stupid" is definitely a way to get people to switch from Windows or OSX. Everyone loves being belittled as "stupid" if they have a question about something outside their area of expertise. You know how people love the humiliation that geeks heap on them for asking the most innocuous questions.
Not that I expect Linux zealots on
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
h.264 is the codec used by modern Quicktime movies. Perhaps you have heard of Quicktime? If not, it is a type of movie format made by a computer company called Apple. Perhaps you have heard of Apple? They make Macintoshes, a fairly popular type of computer.
He stated the facts as a person who does not live for computer use. He had problems and pointed out some problems that may seem trivial to us but to others they can be pretty big.
I'd rather see the mass public have something with those features taken care of than to keep answering the same questions regarding codecs, etc.
Some people posted on the list about various useful websites for documentation or utilities like Automatcix for installing stuff, the only problem is those things are not in the standard install so if Linux was suddenly 'general public popular' (be scared) we would be having to post again and again all these things because they are not something that is easy for the average user to figure out or find.
Recently I was looking for a good noob guide to Linux and the various OSS licenses (up to date and no really big long winded paragraphs with legal talk or platform bashing) and didn't really find any good ones. A lot of this is the 'well we already know that stuff already' mentality that is throughout the entire computer industry (i.e. "How do I take a snapshot of a Mac screen?" everyone who's been with a Mac for a decade knows but there is no easy guide for the new Mac people.)
I for one don't mind the situation as it is - cause once the 'AOL nation' moves to Linux we have the same problems MS has with Windows, "consumer lock-in", a lot of people keeping you from getting new/necessary work done because of fear that their old Apps don't start up any more (either rightly so or not). I figure there are are probably still some adjustments coming down the pipe before we want EVERYONE to depend on Linux to have it in wide use - too early makes fixing some problems a lot more difficult.
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
...is the support. Now, I am windows at work as a desktop tech, so I know windows inside and out. I have Vista and Ubuntu on my personal laptop. I am actually in the process of permanantly switching to linux on my home laptop, because vista sucks.
Frankly, Linux can do more than any operating system out there with less hardware, and that's what I love about it. Vista was pretty much copying Beryl with their new interface, and they didn't even give half the features of beryl.
That's what I like about Linux, it is cutting edge and fully customizable. However, when it comes to support from the linux community, it is almost exclusively done in the terminal. Obviously this is because the terminal is the easiest way to configure and repair everything, but a user who is used to Windows and OS X is going to try to get help with something, freak out when they see a line of what looks to them like hacker programming code, and go back to safe, boring windows.
That's the problem as I see it. There are problems in every operating system, in Windows and OS X they are relatively easy to fix, in Linux if you don't already know the fix it can be a nightmare. I'm pleanty savvy enough to figure things out, but the average user doesn't have a chance in hell.
Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
Comment removed based on user account deletion
People keep talking about such "users", but I still have to find them. Seriously, in my ten years long professional life I have yet to find a user who would forbid to think anything, to understand anything.
Maybe I have to deal with people who actually *work*, and who understand that from their efforts trying to understand how computer and it's software works depend their professional future. Yes, they sometimes commit few stupid things, but they admit it, ask for help and never do that again.
Personally I think that Linux is not for such people. And no, I don't think they are majority. It is just US CEO/MBA syndrome, I guess.
Getting that off my neck, I have to say that Dell OEM is just first step and of course users with solid requirements won't be happy. Ubuntu OEM offerings should be improved and I really hope that they will be. Constructive criticism is good, whatever we can answer to that or not.
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
In the growing pains of Linux Distro's, one sees a steady advancement; That not even Microsoft can block. A major advancement would be Wizard's for the various Open Source programs out there. What Walt maybe forgets; Because, he IS old. Is that Microsoft went through this in the early 1990's. Back then, it was Windows vs. IBM Selectric, and the grand mother who has been working there, with the typewriter, since Cuneiform was invented.
Mossberg has journalistic responsibilities (by whatever ethical standards he holds). As such, he ought to guide the business/tech community towards solutions that avoid these pitfalls. Since it is a minor hinderance (click this to install this) to help fight a major nightmare (all your data are belong to us), I would have appreciated more integrity on his part. His whole 'common man' routine is a joke. What new OEM Windows - even with XP-SP2 - doesn't need dozens of patches and reboots "out of the box"? All machines come with tradeoffs, he would be perfectly fine if he listed those tradeoffs and gave his readers three options with which to proceed. I can't help his being 'part of the machine' colors his judgement in ways he may not understand. My tech-illiterate father needs occasional help with the Mac laptop. Less than I expected but certainly not none. The truth is, most people now need help with HDTV installs. It is the flashing "12:00" VCR all over again. We didn't need to be here but those who have succombed to pressure by the media cartel have succeeded.
I have to wonder if we lived in a world opposite of today's where Windows was the underdog OS and Ubuntu was the top dog. I'm pretty certain there'd be just as much, and most likely more, to say about the difficulty in getting used to the new OS. Its all relative based on what the user is currently comfortable with.
but lets get past that shall we, as we can well assume that getting used to anything new is going to take time, and for some people it may well take too much time to be worth it. If anything this is a great excercise for the Ubuntu team, as they have the challenging task of making the OS more for everyone.
"He loaded what was billed as a fully featured OS."
No.If you read the article in the Wall Street Journal,
he interviewed Shuttleworth who admitted that Ubuntu (at least 7.04) isn't yet ready for the masses.
There will be a day when Mark calls him back with a grin and says, "Try This!"
Then a link to easyubuntu or automatix, or even the CLI method for advanced users.
I believe any such links would run afoul of the DeCSS decision which prohibited links to software designed to "circumvent" encryption used to protect copyrighted materials.
Just have Dell purchase the licenses and bundle them into the cost of the computer.
bad car analogy time:
most people don't know anything about their cars other than how to drive them. most people don't want to know anything about their cars, other than how to drive them. people shouldn't have to know anything about their cars, other than how to drive them. however people have reasonable expectations about their cars. they don't expect them to do anything more than drive. they accept that cars have spare tires because car tires go flat sometimes. when their cars get a flat, they either fix the flat, or call someone to come fix it. they accept that cars need oil changes. when the time comes, they either change the oil themselves or take it somewhere to be changed.
all too often, people expect too much from computers when it comes to care and operation. you need to back your stuff up because sometimes things break. you need to take steps to protect yourself because sometimes people break things.
that is not the case with computers. people often fear them or put far too much trust in them.
if ubuntu or any linux project else were to focus solely on ease of use, to the exclusion of all else, people would complain about it for the same reasons that they complain about windows. they would say it's too buggy, there are too many wizards that malfunction, or something went nuts somewhere in the mix and i can't force it back to a default configuration. they would say it's too expensive or that new releases don't come out often enough. quite a few BSD types are ex-linux types for some of these reasons.
so, ubuntu and linux in general are making progress down to the level of the basic user. they are closer now than they have ever been. but they do so while trying to remain true to the qualities that make it preferable to the alternatives: stability, security, and hardware efficiency.
sarcasm:
-noun
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
I'm pretty sure the problem is caused by a mode where movements near the edge of the pad are specially interpreted as scroll commands. I managed to turn of a similar feature in Windows, but haven't bothered to figure out the configure file settings for Ubuntu.
/etc
It's a pain that most tuning in Linux comes down to researching and rewriting text files in
Automatix mangles Ubuntu horribly. If you want tinker with Automatix, use plain Debian.
All of the things you've installed via Automatix are also CORRECTLY available via apt, with Synaptic providing a friendly GUI.
Linux have flaws etc...but seriously....does he know anything he's talking about... TouchPad do have something to configure how it work...gsynaptic or ksynaptic for gnome/kde Actually to make it work...you need to add something to the xorg.conf file so the synaptic app will be able to configure it. But with the new version of ubuntu, there will be a xorg editor in gui...wow... As for the rest...saying that "nobody is ultimately responsible for the quality of the product" is a bunch of crap...nothing really go into a release without being revised/tested enough to be enough stable or good. Saying that Ipods and his Kodak don't work as great as in windows.... Sorry we cannot be good in every ways...Do kodak or Apple provided the stuff to make it work correctly? No so, count you lucky that it works... As for stability, i rarely have problem of stability except hibernation that do some strange things to my screen...but it's not random...it always do the same thing but the computer still work... and for the last thing i hate the most of this article.... The last sentence.... "But for now, I still advise mainstream, nontechnical users to avoid Linux." Seriously, if normal mainstream non technical users avoid using linux how would we know what to change in it...? If there is nobody except us "techie" users... how would it help non technical user to get a platform that fits their needs more than anything else... Asking to avoid something because it's harder or different to use is like saying...don't try to find better solution to your problems because it may take time and self work on it. Something really difficult..self work...having to learn a new system etc... Ah and the funniest thing... "I was warned that some of these codecs might be "bad" or "ugly."" What is he talking about...? these codecs are in package named bad/ugly but aren't actually bad or ugly...they are just located in a package called like that...And if these package are called this way...this is probably just in link with FOSS and not quality of these codecs... As i see...wmv support would be in bad or ugly because its probably a bad idea to use this format...or ugly because it's a proprietary format...something very ugly isn't it?!
Teh OMG... dis guy iz saeing teh Ubunghole iznt' teh p3rfekt?
Hope hiz M$$$ stok goze up, dat dam M$$$ empl0y33!!!!1!11
Teh Lunix iz teh Perfekt, and so iz teh Lunis!!!! All things teh Lunix are teh P3rfekt!!!!
UBUNGHOLE RULEZ
!!!!1
This is absolute bullshit. I know you don't have a shred of evidence for this.
I'm a journalist and I have friends (and non-friends) who went to work for the WSJ, which I read every day.
I've worked for publications that have killed my stories because of problems with advertisers, and for publications that went ahead and published embarassing stories in spite of advertisers. I have a low opinion of the news business in general and its relationship to advertisers.
But I've never heard any knowledgeable or credible person claim that the WSJ was influenced by advertisers or that any reporter took payoffs from a source. (One reporter who was trading stock on his insider knowledge was fired and went to jail).
Back in the 1950s, the WSJ got photos of the new line of General Motors cars. GM threatened to pull all their advertising if the WSJ printed them. The WSJ told GM to go fuck themselves and printed the photos. GM pulled their ads, but eventually came back begging. That was when auto advertisers (one of the big 3 advertisers, along with cigarettes and food) could influence other newspapers, even the New York Times. That's how the WSJ got its credibility, and they never gave it up. (Although we'll see what Murdoch does.)
One of the big differences between journalism and Slashdot/Internet postings is that journalists make an effort to check their facts, whereas Internet posters can feel free to shoot their mouths off with all kinds of paranoid bullshit. I don't blame you (too much) for this, it's just not your job to question these stupid accusations. You can probably code better than me. But I think it's your obligation not to be too stupid, which is why I'm trying to educate you. Otherwise we wind up with presidents like GWB.
Incidentally, when a newspaper reporter writes in good faith, without malice, the newspaper has pretty strong protections against libel (see New York Times vs. Sullivan). But if the WSJ did write unfavorable reviews about a product because they were getting advertising from their competitors, or because their reporter was getting paid off, that would be libel, and also malice, so they wouldn't have the good-faith protection from libel. And they would lose. Payoffs like this can't be kept secret, because they would be disclosed in a libel suit. So it's too dangerous for the WSJ to allow that, and if they had we would have known.
Of course your charges against the WSJ and Mossberg are also libelous, but you're too insignificant for them to be concerned with.
Friends don't let friends use Automatix, or Vista.
Ya, on vendor locked in and limited hardware, nevermind twice as expensive, that includes repairs and parts or extra toys. And they all(win,osx,lin,bsd) need a tech weenie(watch your insults you prick) to maintain it when it goes wrong. It's easy to make something work on a limited platform, not so when you have to fight for every inch on a completely open platform. OS upgrades on ubuntu are every 6 months with constant updates and revisions to current changes and problems detected in the net world. How often does windows and apple correct things, once a month when your lucky and when they aren't ignoring(apple) or covering up(Microsoft) the flaw instead. The fact that in a few years ubuntu has more stability than windows and is almost as pretty as osx while being free to users says a hell of a lot. Unless people start using it even with flaws, not like they are that bad, no one will change over to use it. Windows had and still has several flaws, especially in the beginning, and it had to be learned as well. How many people buy a machine and have to install drivers off the net or software as soon as they get home? Nothing just works so save it please. The comparisons are apples and oranges, windows and osx are tweaked, ubuntu is just dumped on. Kick the vendor(dell) in the head and get on with it. The laptops have only been out a short time. Windows has been out nearly a year already and how's it doing? Judging from the Osx fanboying it should have taken over the market by now. Odd how I see less bitching and a lot more patience with the commercial offerings. And since ubuntu is growing rather quickly anyway other considerations must matter.
Average users don't bother to read any EULA on software. If the product does not work because of that, or if the user is sued because of that, is it the product's problem?
"...with the potential of having to do it again each time the drivers get updated in the repositories."
One would hope you informed the ALSA people about the bug, so that later revisions of the driver would be fixed.
You really *are* a dumb bunny aren't you. OS X works like a charm and requires absolutely no user intervention to maintain other than typing in a password when installing updates. Linux is a mess. X windows is a mess. There is a reason OS X is so damn reliable. It is based on FreeBSD. And you can stick your U up your buntu! HAHAHAHAHAHA!
http://k12ltsp.org/ that has been around and available for years? It's based on Fedora but everything is there for a standard office environment.
Sorry typo, I meant 7.04. Wish it were a magic build and worked seamlessly for basic things at least.
most people don't know anything about their cars other than how to drive them. most people don't want to know anything about their cars, other than how to drive them. people shouldn't have to know anything about their cars, other than how to drive them. however people have reasonable expectations about their cars. they don't expect them to do anything more than drive. they accept that cars have spare tires because car tires go flat sometimes. when their cars get a flat, they either fix the flat, or call someone to come fix it. they accept that cars need oil changes. when the time comes, they either change the oil themselves or take it somewhere to be changed.
all too often, people expect too much from computers when it comes to care and operation. you need to back your stuff up because sometimes things break. you need to take steps to protect yourself because sometimes people break things.
that is not the case with computers. people often fear them or put far too much trust in them. I always disliked the car analogy, because as you stated, cars have a single use. Transportation. Even if I have a car with some newfangled bluetooth capability to allow me to steal penguins from the zoo while simultaneously tattooing 'linux' on their backsides and I didn't know how to use it, the car would still perform its primary function. You're right, people only expect cars to perform that function.
To reverse this analogy, let's take the same analogy with a computer. The primary, sole function of a computer is... what?
To compute?
To help me to communicate?
Entertainment?
This is where I don't agree with your analogy, because these are (very summarized) purposes that a computer CAN be used for. There is no sole purpose for a PC. There is a lot of expectation because there is a lot of inherent versatility that comes with owning one. Now, don't get me wrong, I agree that no one should (yet) expect their PC to cook a meal for them, but I hardly think this is what we're arguing. if ubuntu or any linux project else were to focus solely on ease of use, to the exclusion of all else, people would complain about it for the same reasons that they complain about windows. they would say it's too buggy, there are too many wizards that malfunction, or something went nuts somewhere in the mix and i can't force it back to a default configuration. they would say it's too expensive or that new releases don't come out often enough. quite a few BSD types are ex-linux types for some of these reasons. No one is saying that Linux has to focus solely on ease of use (though as Ubuntu touts the phrase "it just works" is that not the idea?). There are applications of Linux in many different environments, which is one of the reasons that it is so useful.
The fact of the matter is, average users expectations don't lie in the many applications of Linux, just in the application of it as applied to themselves. It's the same reason an average user would never buy a "server edition" class of the Windows operating system - even just in the name, it doesn't sound like the tool suited for them. so, ubuntu and linux in general are making progress down to the level of the basic user. they are closer now than they have ever been. but they do so while trying to remain true to the qualities that make it preferable to the alternatives: stability, security, and hardware efficiency. I agree that Ubuntu has made a lot of progress in the field of making things easy for the user, but my whole point was that there is still a lot of progress to be made.
You can also use the open-source plugin Perian (http://perian.org/) to give quicktime on OS X support for almost every codec under the sun, including MPEG1 and 2, you needn't pay apple money for it.
Of course your point is still valid - it's easier to add support in Ubuntu.
Yes Linux is ready for the desktop. No Linux isn't quite ready for those who have only known Windows with a GUI. Linux has been much much more stable then my Windows XP computer has ever been. No matter what I try to do to mess it up, all my applications load fast and stable. As for Codecs how much easier can it be?!?!? You click install codecs and it installs them! And you can even start using them without a reboot, and best of all you won't have to worry about some company making sure they are not "pirated" Also the GUI for Linux has been much much consistent then Windows, so yes the learning curve is steeper to begin with but you are guaranteed that you can either use the same GUI, use a CLI (if you want) unlike Vista or Office 2007. Thats whats going to be the "killer feature" for Linux and open source.
There is no "disagree" moderation, and troll, flamebait and overrated are not valid substitutes
OpenSUSE 10.2 (10.3 is RIGHT around the corner)
For everything else........there's the lesser Ubuntu. I actually LIKE Ubuntu, once I install KDE on it. But I prefer SUSE for getting things done easily (And I don't shy away from command line, I am a sysadmin. I love by CLI). For newbies, it is not bad. It sets most things up for you. You have YaST for getting things done quickly w/o the command line. Package management for an RPM based distro is a breeze. It is not as fast as apt-get but it is thorough and has nice features like "rpm provides" which help.
I had issues where $somelib.so was not found and I went into Yast and typed somelib and checked rpm provides and voila, the package(s) that provide it were there, allowing me to check them. It solves deps for you as well. This is much easier than the missing dll hell from win9x days. People compare YaST to Synaptec or apt-get and don't realize it is MUCH MUCH MORE than a package manager. It is a command center.
OpenSUSE Picked up my TV tuner by default as far back as 10.0, all I had to do was scan for channels.
With the extra repositories (easy to configure) I have almost the same capabilities as apt-get (guru and such).
Things just seamed to work.
grrr, before the jokes start, it was a typo. I LIVE by the CLI I don't love me some ascii porn art
I think the problems are mainly in dell's preconfiguration (or lack of)... adjusting the touchpad, depending on the touchpad device, I just installed gsynaptic, but this required changing a setting in xorg's config file manually... also, the drivers are fairly straight forward, and they should probably create at *LEAST* a one-click configuration option for the user, on the desktop, if commercial driver distribution is legally sticky for them...
For some of the other things, codecs, etc.. again, this is legally sticky, at least for a US based company... It can be gotten around, but even publishing instructions and including them, or having them on dell's website could be "enabling" under the law... (what a load of crap).
The issues sited are pretty big... I can't believe how sensitive a touchpad is on gnome by default... I accidentally nuked the network applet because of how sensitive it was to the "touch == click" thing... I'd rather have the touchclick disabled by default than have it that sensitive to a touch...
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
Hmmm. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
MS and Apple can pay this, Ubuntu can't.
Why not?
Firefox seems to be able to pay all its bills. So does Wikipedia, although they're almost always having a funding drive. Why can't Ubuntu?
Comment of the year
I tried Ubuntu on my laptop about two months back and while I thought it was certainly an improvement over the RedHat days of yore I still ran into some issues that irked me. I wanted to use KDE but the wi-fi applet had some inane issue. There was a work-around but I wasn't in the mood to jump through hoops. I switched to Gnome and the wi-fi issue went away. Audio was a whole world of fun. I couldn't for the life of me get the built-in laptop speakers to work only headphones or external speakers. I googled the issue for my model of Realtek "sound card" and found reference to it but not a clear cut solution that worked. I downloaded the latest drivers from Realtek and I think I got them to compile right but I'm not really sure. The driver setup was an ugly mess, I was looking for some sort of unified driver install applet or tool and for the life of me couldn't find one. Windows for what it's worth is very good on this. The other thing that I troubled me, and this is ironic, was that I thought it was holding my hand too much. To install applications and codecs all I had to do was pick them from a list and everything was done for me. While this is nice for a new user I like have some idea of what the hell is going on in my system. I know I'm being mean here, but another issue I have always had with the Linux is compiling everything. I am willing to give up some performance for the ease of just being able to download a file anywhere I damn well please and run it. I know this isn't secure and it doesn't fallow a neat directory layout but in the end it's my computer. So in the end I'm still on Windows (XP, Vista is as bad as ME imo) but I will keep checking up on Ubuntu, perhaps by 2009 enough of the general kinks will have been worked out and OEM support will be better.
My copy of Windows Media Player on my brand new install of Vista Home Premium plays DVDs just fine. As does Media Center. You're the second person in this discussion to say that Windows Media Player doesn't play DVDs... what makes you say this?
Comment of the year
The best thing would have been to sell a laptop where everything from built-in wireless right down to a friggin webcam is supported, and say, That's it. If you want Linux, buy this model. No Alienware here, buddy (tho widescreen would be nice), but just tick off those accessories that you don't need so you can get it for a little less.
Ok guys, here's a wake up call. You know how when you buy a music CD (you still remember?) and you want to include it in your music library, it gets converted? Well for you guys in Ubuntu-land (and Linuxland as well) how about a nod towards free formats: When the distro recognizes that an attempt is being made to play mp3, offer to convert it to ogg. Give them that choice instead of, 'Oh BTW you have to hunt down that codecs. Sorry, no soup for you.'
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
Of course, I imagine they could provide, as an option, on first boot, a script to download and install the "illegal" free ones. That's what I'd do, if I were going to try to be a Linux OEM.
But, this being the corporate world, they're probably much better off going with the legal version.
Anyway, support is a non-issue. The only problem here is the initial price, and the only reason that's possibly a problem is that the price of Windows gets offset by crapware. Remove the crapware, and I'll bet Linux+codecs is cheaper than Windows+PowerDVD+Office+etc
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Spreadsheets are not a basic windows function. That is MS Office - an advanced user's add-on.
"Advanced user's add-on?" Hell, half the people I run into on a daily basis don't even know that MS Office is not, in fact, a component of Windows. As far as Joe Luser is concerned, if he buys a computer that doesn't make a spreadsheet, that fucker's broken, and I agree. Both you and GP are correct. Spreadsheets are not a "basic Windows function." Therefore, Windows is broken.
Once again, we aren't talking about Outlook, which is an Office item.
See above. If the computer doesn't do these things out of the box and without hassle, it is broken. Why Windows boosters see this clearly w/r/t (to pull an example from TFA) touchpad configuration or video acceleration, but not spreadsheets and email, is totally beyond me.
Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
Please read the following web page:
Plugins
"If you are running Windows XP, you can enhance your DVD playback experience by purchasing a DVD decoder pack."
Except for one thing:
Windows is the milk crates and and plywood, it's just painted in candy-apple colors. Linux is the executive desk in the corner office with blotter, buzzer for the secretary, and video-conferencing equipment (all labeled in Cyrillic, for ease of use).
Simple and colorful is easy to use. People use Windows for the same reason my three-year old kid gets a Playskool drill, and not a power drill.
Just another "DOJ fascist authoritarian totalitarian bootlicker" -- Zeio
You can't redistribute patent licences, so at that point users of Ubuntu who live in a jurisdiction that believes in software patents are left in exactly the same position they were before - either with MP3 codecs they're not allowed to run, or with a commercial Linux distribution whose disks they are not allowed to copy.
If all you want is not a free *nix, but just a pretty commercial *nix that works with stuff but which you're not allowed to give away to your friends, buy Linspire or SUSE Enterprise Desktop or one of the many other half-free ones. The concept's been around a while.
You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
Interesting. So Vista Home doesn't come with a DVD decoder, but Vista Home Premium does. Would be a lot more accurate for people to state this, instead of just authoritatively stating "Windows doesn't play DVDs." When people say "Windows doesn't play DVDs", and I played a DVD on my vanilla Windows just a few days ago, I start thinking that probably everything else they said was a lie too.
Comment of the year
Installing further applications outside of the bundled, however, needs work. GNOME needs to expand further with, say, Apple's "package" concept of a single app in a double-clickable folder that contains all the binaries and libraries for the app. For now, Ubuntu works like many Linux clients, so third-party apps are hellish to do for the average Joe Whodoesntdo-cmdlines.
Why do people continue to give cred to Apple for its horrible installation routines? Compared to apt/synaptic, both OS X and MS Windows are in the stone age, OS X even moreso than Windows XP / Vista.
Let me clarify it with a simple question: Out of OS X, MS Windows XP/Vista and Debian / Ubuntu. What OS do you feel confident will properly install and uninstall both user-application files _and_ systemfiles, without conflicts, corruption and hassles?
I find OS X even worse than Install Shield, since often there is no uninstall, or you have to find the original CD and _pray_ there is an uninstall. Most often, you will find files hanging after OS X applications.
Installing is more than copying files to a harddrive. We did that with MS-DOS and Win 3.11 back in the late 80s and early 90s.
Sorry for the rant, but it bugs me that people cant see this.
Otherwise, nice posting.
I would like to add my reason why Linux sucks on the desktop: Bloat.
Thats right. Both Gnome and KDE feels like a piece of big bloat. Firefox is slow to load, Thunderbird likewise. But overall, the entire interface just doesnt zip. And dont get me started on Open Office... Urk. Java.
I hate to say it, but XP is the fastest of OS X, Gnome / KDE and Windows. Just too bad its even more annoying than OS X (and OS X is REALLY annoying sometimes).
How new is this laptop of hers? If it was like mine and had Santa Rosa guts in it, then I had the exact same problem.
One cannot expect an operating system that came out in April to support hardware that came out in May out of the box.
I bought my laptop expecting this, and you'd better believe that just about everything did not work. (Video, sound, wireless, DVD burner, etc) The only thing that did work, thankfully, was the LAN port. I had to immediately upgrade the kernel, HAL, etc. I had to track down drivers for everything, and my sound finally started working correctly as recently as last week! (Previously, headphones would work, but would not mute the speakers)
While I agree with your overall point, the specific reasoning behind this issue must be taken into account. It's entirely possible that this is one thing that cannot be resolved without a new OS release.
Mod up!
This man is God!! (OT posts below)
Wait...if somebody uses Linux, that makes them into Ron Jeremy?
I think we need to market this.
Try playing a DVD in your fresh XP install sometime.. You will be surprised how little XP supports out of the box *BECAUSE OF LEGAL ISSUES*.
Ignorance of the Law is no excuse.
If you dont like the law, work on changing it, but ignoring it is only inviting trouble.
The way we can deal with it, is educate users and make them responsible.
This is not a problem only for Linux. This is a social problem.
I think I was clear that I was talking about Windows XP and Windows Media Player, neither of which include a DVD decoder. Perhaps someone else was vague.
His complaint shouldn't be with Ubuntu. It's ready for mainstream, if only the OEM (Dell) would configure it properly. The problems that the author of the article is having are not caused by Ubuntu, they're caused by Dell not configuring Ubuntu to work out-of-the-box, like they do with Windows. All the people defending Ubuntu have a right to. What they say is true: you could say the same things about Windows. The only reason Windows can do many of the things the author described OOTB is because it is preconfigured by the OEM. Linux users deserve this same treatment. *tin foil hat time* I don't know if this is just a lack of effort on Dell's part, or if the source is pressure from Microsoft. I definitely wouldn't put it past Microsoft to pressure Dell into 'upholding' Microsoft's FUD about Linux not working as well as Windows. I know it's kind of a conspiracy theory, but it was just a thought I had and Microsoft has been known to do this sort of thing in the past.
I too would like to see this idiotproof GUI. This could revolutionize computing. Also I have a couple of idiots in mind I'd like to run it by.
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
> These days, having no native MP3 support is on the level of having no native mouse support.
... in Amarok". Check. Apply changes.
People still download winamp for windows and manage to download codecs for xvid and matroska, which is more difficult.
Clicking on a mp3 in Feisty Kubuntu will bring up a request to install mp3-support for Amarok. That is a hair away from "native support". Or if you really want to do it the complicated, hard, manual way:
Start Add/Remove Programs and type "mp3". There it is: "Codecs to play mp3
It seems to me that the current technical design architecture of graphical user interfaces - with hard-coded, black-box dialogs written in massively complex, baroque languages like C/C++/Java/.NET and with all sorts of weird cabling under the hood - are fundamentally going about things the wrong way. We make our interfaces non-user-modifiable, then complain that the users aren't contributing anything to the development of open software 'because they're not programmers'.
OF COURSE if we build our 'user interfaces' like this, our 'end users' aren't going to be able to edit them. We lock the end-user out of the feedback loop by design. So we need a specialist caste of GUI programmers to write them, and these programmers are likely to not really understand how the interface is going to be used (because they'd rather be writing the nuts and bolts algorithms underneath), so they do a cheap and slapdash job and move on, or else they force fundamental UI design decisions by some 'look and feel committee' which not everyone in a project agrees with. But once the interface is there, we can't change it easily, so people learn to live with it, work around the flaws, and let them become interface cliches.
Compare this state of affairs with how easy it is for an end-user to 'program' or modify a spreadsheet or an Access database query or a Word macro. In those 'office' type platforms, there's a smooth curve from being an 'end user' to a 'power user' to a 'developer'. Why don't we make the whole OS/GUI platform similarly open? Why isn't Linux shooting for an environment more like Smalltalk or even more so, where the end user is encouraged to remix, repurpose, rebuild, sculpt their own visual environment, tweak any dialogs they find cramped, publish new interfaces for products just like they'd publish skins for Firefox?
Radically remixable UIs. Everything exposed, all UI-to-application data channels scriptable and documented, safely open to tweaking. That's where I want to go.
You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
When they install Windows, they ignore the problems and glitches:
In Windows, people are used to these problems. In Linux, if the video doesn't play out of the box, people scream "Ubuntu isn't ready for the desktop", when in fact that same problem and many more plague Windows boxes. Not only that, but I don't think I've seen any of my non-techie friends' Windows boxes survive more than a year or so without having to be reinstalled because they "got slow".
What did Windows ever do to you!!? Why do you people have to be SOOOOOO MEAN!!!!!?? LEAVE WINDOWS USERS ALONE GODDAMMIT!!!! They're just human beings exactly like you are!! And Walt Mossberg has to do and get all mean all over Windows for what?!! Why does he have to be so mean!!? Leave Windows Users Alone!! Windows developers didn't even have to be dumb. You're even lucky Windows exists! Just leave Windows users alone! Anyone who is going to diss and hate on Windows is going to have to deal with me first!!! Leave Windows Users Alone!!!
Can somebody explain to me what all the hype around Ubuntu is about?
SuSE is much closer to being a desktop OS then Ubuntu and it has a centralized easy to follow point and click control panel with yast2 that is nice for people like my mom (who is exactly the type of user Linux needs to focus on to gain desktop share).
Personally I think Fedora as well as RHEL/CentOS have much more intuitive commands than Debian based distros and while apt-get is nice, yum is also nice.
Finally we need to think about who makes a distro before getting behind it. SuSE/Redhat write and contribute code back to the Open Source Community while Ubuntu just takes packages from Debian and slaps them together. Where will Linux be if Ubuntu gains such a big market share it puts Redhat, SuSE and/or Debian out of business? Nowhere, because without the big guns, Linux would start to die. But if Ubuntu just disappeared tomorrow these three core contributing groups would continue advancing Linux.
I leave IBM out as IBM does not have it's own distribution, but do you think that IBM is more effective working along side partners like Novell and Red Hat or do you think IBM is better off going it alone as Ubuntu's code monkey?
I am beginning to think ubuntu means "We take, others give and recent Linux converts love us for it." Or maybe it means "College kids us us because our name sounds like it we are anti-man and = anti-Western culture; plus we put naked chicks on our first release." or maybe it is "Use us to kill the distros that got Linux here, we're only in it for the quick buck anyways."
- Eric
Respect the Constitution
You can be secure with any size penis. This seems to be a critical point of failure on your part and the part of many others.
I personally agree, but the fact is that Ubuntu is going to be the one most of the new drivers and so on will work best with, because it's the currently most favored version out there. And it apparently works best running Windows games under Wine or other emulators.(a huge reason it draws in such a large crowd, actually)
Myself? I vote for Xandros for the first time newbie from Windows. Very clean and easy to use. Does tons of hand-holding and has a nice windows migration assistant built in that most average users can deal with. Not free, though, but so be it - most users will pay once and get free idiot-proof support and libraries for their trouble.
But, yes, Ubuntu isn't the only variety by a long shot(plus I personally don't like the Gnome interface)
As for the original article, I love the quote about it not being ready for prime-time. Newsflash: Vista never was, either. At least with the various versions of unix, they make it obvious that you're installing beta-ware.
What versions of Windows don't include MP3? It's certainly been in Windows Media Player for many versions. Back to Win98?
My video compression blog
I take your points, and to me it just seems as if nobody knows how to make a great GUI, or at least, nobody is making a great GUI. If there really was a great GUI out there, I might use it, but as far as I can tell there simply isn't.
I also think it's important to point out that it's completely possible to have a user friendly command line. I think command line interfaces get an unjustified reputation for new users. One of the most commonly used types of apps in the World -- the web search engine -- is based around command lines. Users type what they want, and the search engine tries to give it to them... often quite accurately. The Google command line is a great example of this. It's straightforward for new users to use quite effectively, and advanced users can customise their searches in lots of ways. It's not the type of precisely specified command line that would be associated with something like a bash session, but it's a well designed system appropriate for the task, intended to be quick to learn and easier to use.
Getting back to your comments about GUIs, I have to admit that one of the main reasons I prefer Linux as a desktop OS (and I fully agree this isn't for anyone) is that in a world where no GUI is that great, it provides an excellent command line. I primarily use the GUI these days to do regular things like open a web browser or edit a spreadsheet. But when I get sick of trying to interact with the GUI for a slightly complex operation such as moving files around in a certain way, I can switch to a command line and do things very easily.
Windows has a horrible command line as far as I've experienced. There are few consistent standards for how Windows command line tools should work together, and many Windows tools I've tried to use through a command line have been a secondary effort to an equivalent GUI tool. Often it's impossible to do simple things without invoking the GUI. The Windows Powershell stuff is quite nice for scipting functionality, but Windows still presents it through an awful interface for typing in.
Just my thoughts, anyway.
I would normally agree with you but in this situation I think Dell should be including the MP3 license cost in the price (same with the DVD license) at least for US customers, just like they do for the Windows customers. Mossberg has a valid point here.
it's not a one-time thing. You have to pay per copy... other free software can't do that either. It's not about paying their bills, it's about legal requirements that certain parts of your software have to be secured, closed source to legally license things like CSS. The programs exist completely free and legal of COPYRIGHT. It's the combination of DMCA and Patents that make Linux extra difficult to implement in the USA. If the patent holder adds strings to use their code you can't even reverse engineer it legally anymore.
No it doesn't. PowerDVD SE $15.
As if any XP system hasn't shipped with a third-party DVD player since August of 2001.
The user expects the engineer to make the machine easier and safer for him to use. That is why the electric starter replaces the hand crank on the Model T Ford.
Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
THAT was hard to find. When I tried to play common audio and video files, such as MP3 songs, I was told I had to first download special files called codecs that are built into Windows and Mac computers. You can thank our Government for that, along with the people who brib- err, contributed to their campaigns.
If there's anyone I hate more than stupid people, it's intellectuals.
That is what he is paying for.
How many Google queries return answers that are just plain wrong?
OMG - i have to learn a new UI - i'm so lost :-)
http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
That was the only problem. Everything else worked out of the box, with much better performance than Vista. Vista tended to reboot spontaneously, and its graphical effects were a real drag on the system. Or at least I imagine they were, it was pretty sluggish in general. That little dialog box asking for permission to do things very quickly overstayed its welcome.
It has been known for a while. I saw in one post that it was slated to be included in a kernel upgrade, but someone accidentally overwrote it, or something to that effect.
C'est la vie.
I don't really get this. The whole point is that Dell is basically an assembler and tester of PC components. They don't "make" anything really. They buy boards and parts from various vendors (intel, Nvidia, etc...) and they put them together in a cheap plastic case and then they QA all the drivers to make sure they work with the OS they are shipping. So the fact that Dell is selling a computer where drivers aren't configured or hardware components are disabled or don't work due to lack of configuration is totally inexcusable, Linux or not. I mean, its not like the issues he cites couldn't have been resolved by Dell if they decided to do it. The Drivers exist, the configs work... Irregardless of if Linux is ready for grandma, the issues he states don't really have anything to do with that. The problem with this product is Dell, not Linux.
He loaded what was billed as a fully featured OS. These days, what part of what a fully featured OS is assumed to provide is default support for a wide range of multimedia.
Funny, Microsoft gets sued for provided a "fully featured OS" -- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6998272.stm
Well, I am a dyed in the wool Ubuntu fan, but this article is sadly spot on. There should certainly be an easier way to install codecs for instance. Also, out of box camera support should be more like Windows. Further, there should be more right click options by default, and an easier way to run things as root without entering the command line. I love the password box that comes up when running synaptic. Would it be so hard to have one of those boxes come up if you are editing a text file you don't have permissions for, but need to save it? And what about a GUI way to install AND SETUP Privoxy. I'm sick of editing text files to configure my system, anyway, and there's NO FUCKING WAY gramma is gonna figure that out. That's just one example, but you can replace the name Privoxy with about 20 other software packages that many regular users might need. Also, all the torrent programs are a sad joke compared to utorrent, and it's ludicrous that Ubuntu is trying to gain market share (obviously), but for some reason still defaults to evolution instead of Thunderbird. Obviously Cannonical, or the Ubuntu devs, or maybe both are at odds with themselves in some way, as there are several issues that seem to have been left unfixed that would seem to be rather easy to fix. I just wish they would all get on board with the Windows Killer Platform idea they are so close to and really do it (though I do see this happening with Gutsy, some of these stupid issues are still persisting). Also, some of the FOSS apps that Ubuntu relies on need a massive over haul or major fixing as well. I'm looking at you, GIMP (who also needs a new name), and you Krita (who doesn't recognize my uber generic wacom tablet).
I've come up with other crits in my blog, but I think at this point most of the Ubuntu crowd will be familiar with their deficiencies, now whether they are agreed they need to be fixed or not......
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Mossberg makes some good points. The sad fact is that many of the negative points he brings I blame on Dell, but most uninformed readers will take it as a slight against Linux.
I bought the cheapest Dell laptop with Ubuntu--the Inspiron E1505 "n series." I bought it because I had been waiting for a long time to buy a laptop with Linux pre-loaded. I'd put it myself on several PowerBooks and a Dell notebook before, but did all the usual struggling to get it up to a desktop experience equivalent to XP or OS X. I thought "Hey, great, it's pre-loaded, so everything's going to work out of the box!"
Wrong.
WiFi simply didn't work until I installed the WiFi Radar package, as I've had to do with Ubuntu on any other machine. I've got a 15.x" widescreen LCD, but 1024x768 out of the box. Had to install the 915resolution package, just like I've had to on other boxen in the past.
Most insulting of all, the "Getting Started" poster that came with it was XP-based, advising me to go to the Start menu to get moving. And it came with an Ubuntu CD with a sticker that stated that if I needed support, visit the Ubuntu forums on the web.
All of these things were fixed in less than a couple of hours, but only due to my previous experience (including the increasingly frustrating PowerPC Linux experience--now that Apple has went Intel and Ubuntu PPC has been demoted to "unofficial" status, this is becoming a dead platform).
Don't get me wrong--I love my Kubuntu Dell laptop (I can't stand Gnome, sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop FTW). But I get the feeling that Dell is purposely sabotaging the Linux experience on their own machines.
:q!
>Having to get "support" for a new product means that that product is broken.
Here here! I don't know how linux distros get away with shipping with so many bugs. With all the problems that windows vista has, if it had *nearly* as many bugs and broken software as your average linux distro, microsoft would go out of business immediately.
Also, I'm sad to say that support on Ubuntu forums has really degraded since ubuntu became more popular. You used to be able to get help from competent people for your problems, but these days the forums are so crowded with idiots who don't know anything *about* linux, but who nevertheless feel compelled to comment on your questions, that it has become a frustrating waste of time.
The last few times I've asked about how to fix a software or hardware problem, some *genius* has suggested that I use some other piece of software instead... or get a different graphics card... Here's an idea? How about I stop using your shitty operating system *entirely*.
Automatix is BAD!
... that aren't all Linux fanboys raging. Or I guess more accurately, nice to see moderation of comments.
I came away from this article with a couple things. One is that's all he found wrong with it? That's good news, since they're not too hard to fix, especially on a vendor installed system. I think he's mostly wrong about the codec issue, as for many codec's Ubuntu is easier than Windows, and after all, how hard is two yes clicks? Another I thought is that the things he pointed out will help improve Ubuntu further. If he has more things that he didn't mention as specific examples, those would be great to hear as that type of good information helps Ubuntu improve.
But the other thing is he's basically acting like Windows is problem free. Well at initial boot a new Windows machine is usually ok. The problem comes within minutes when you have to install AV that bogs the system down and you have to try to maintain the machine as it degrades quickly. Mossberg didn't even appear to try to look for the advantages of Ubuntu, such as the ease of installing new applications without having to separately download and install them as in Windows, and lack of spyware, adware, etc. But it's ok, with those advantages and a free license, Linux and Ubuntu will be fine. We just need to be patient and work on improving it as fast as possible at the same time.
Bull. Aside from trolls, I've never seen anyone get flamed on the Ubuntu Forums. Just make sure you're friends aren't installing Gentoo. If they use Ubuntu, I can practically guarantee the support will e there for them, but whether they want to go through the hoops necessary to get Linux working is their choice. I like it because I'm a UNIX and FOSS enthusiast who lives in bash and likes learning new things. I realize I am way in the minority. I also keep Vista around (bleh) just in case I need something Windows specific. Overall, I'm pretty happy.
P.S. As far as the AC thing, I'm having problems with logging into my account but felt it was very important to make this post.
Could be rephrased for generality:
"The hardcore [personal computer] proponents can deny it all they want, the simple fact of the matter is that when the average user sits down with a [personal computer], there are still numerous shortcomings that may make it unacceptable."
I haven't found a system yet without plenty of flaws. Of the readily available, in-production computer operating systems (in the broad sense including window managers etc -- not the C.S. sense) with which I'm familiar enough to have formed *some* opinion, I am least angry most of the time with a nice Debian-based system running Gnome like Ubuntu (or, as of the system I'm typing from, LinuxMint, which makes it a Debian-derived system by way of Ubuntu). Next comes OS X (still plenty of frustrations trying to make it do things that are simple on my Linux machines), and then comes Windows 98/XP. (I haven't tried Vista yet.)
The least acceptable computer I've run into lately is one owned by a retirement-aged distant cousin by marriage. Completely owned (p0wn3d, even) by some garbage-heap subhumans who have decided to accept money to vandalize computers with maliciously installed advertising junk. Never happens (yet!) on my Linux machines. (Not that there couldn't be big enough security hole one day for similar disgusting acts, but I'll keep knocking on wood.)
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
There has been a synaptic utility available since at least Edgy which requires only to be installed for it to work (no kernel changes as someone suggested!). Dell should have included it, all Windows OEMs install a separate synaptic utility on their laptops (where applicable).
from the point of view of an average luser ...
Fixed.
OMG! It's AWESOME!
Geez, kid- give it a break!
Act a little cooler- and you could sound like the nerdy punk in that Mac vs MS commercial. (which reminds me- I haven't seen it on TV lately)
Perhaps that's because, alas, the MS nerd married the chick and is busy raising a family, whereas the loquacious Apple guy moved back to Mom's basement.
Four months ago, I bought a laptop with Vista. I quickly configured it, got rid of the Norton/ Dell/ Toshiba 'added-value' Bloatware, installed my own FREE Antivirus & MS Defender, and the box has been running 100% ever since.
Of course, I do the periodic MS updates when suggested. No hassles.
(Oooo! Maybe Bill Gates is spying on me!)
MENUS: Well, of course I immediately configured Vista to look like the W2K 'coke-classic' menu system.
My kids were running it for three weeks before they discovered it was Vista not Win2000.
You're right- the new menus are crappy.
But after installing 7.04 Feisty Faqqer (or whatever it's called) in dual-boot, I discovered that Ubuntu would not support my wireless LAN.
(Please, no ath0 SUDO suggestions- I've tried 'em all; they plainly do not work.)
So I went back to Vista and it's been great. Currently on my home aqk network I have W2K, XP-pro, Vista and two flavours of Ubuntu.
Edgy Eerdvark (or whatever) is now run on an old Celeron just as a server, to BU data and print. But that's about ALL it is used for.
Don't get me wrong- I LIKE Ubuntu; particularly the price.
But other than price, what does it offer over Vista?
Sorry for the rant, but I get tired of these ponytailed nerds running around with pants that are too short, whining about how great the Mac... uhh, sorry, Linux is.
Shuttleworth has his work cut out for him. I wish him well.
- Ecsad Essemal
The Hexadecimal TV-REMOTE!
so someone who would prefer a 48 hour reinstall than a command line repair, have drivers that occasionally cause blue screens, and learn new interface gimmicks... would definitely have to go for Vista.
and those who would prefer a GUI just to find out their IP, have no drivers and only one choice of software, and have a pastel designer interface... would have to go for OS X.
http://mjg59.livejournal.com/77440.html
You should be recommending Easybuntu or preferably Medibuntu. With Medibuntu, you just switch on universe and mulitverse and restricted, copy/paste the Medibuntu source lines into the package manager, then install w32codecs and libdvdcss. Upgrades then won't cause your system to self destruct.
The system will work with multimedia at this point.
That leaves one remaining hurdle, the video driver for 3D games. I agree that Dell could have taken care of this detail, but what are they going to do when the kernel gets upgraded and the video goes *poof* ? Sounds like a tech support nightmare. Forgetting about games support seems acceptable for the time being.
Only if you buy Vista Ultimate or Home Premium $$$. All other Windows releases are limited to WMV support (not even DVD playback).
The "Ubuntu doesn't work" arguments here are terribly one-sided, and I'm sure Dell didn't promise those media options in the product literature. If those functions are to be assumed, then Mossberg better start hammering away at MS.
Because I see that a lot. You get an SSH login to your web presence and suddenly you're the "linux guru" at your place of work.
And in that 14 years, you still haven't learned to check to see if your hardware is going to be supported in a recent kernel before you buy it? I guess you bought the wrong tablet PC, because we've deployed it quite successfully for use in idiot-proof AV systems, among other things.
As a linux user of 8 years, I think desktop distributions have come a long way in that time period, and I don't find them any more or less difficult to get working than a Windows OS.
I think the only reason that you were able to get Vista to work on your laptop is because it was supplied with an OEM support disk especially for your machine; they did all the hard work of getting it on there and correctly configured for you.
There are vendors who do this for linux if you care to look for them and pay the premium.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
>I am able to view every video file that comes my way on both of my Ubuntu systems (even the 500 mHz one)
I am awed by Ubuntu's ability to play video on a system running at 500 milliHertz.
Well, Ubuntu frankly doesn't fucking suck ass like Vista does. That's a nice perk. I have to open the control panel three or four times before I can actually interact with it on Vista, each time praying with bated breath explorer doesn't crash out with the control panel window hung up, all icons half loaded; not so with Ubuntu.
Then there's those lovely Vista wifi applets... whats that? No wireless access points detected? Let's reboot the fucking computer (twice?) so that the same AP I use everyday at home shows up finally. At least when 'nix shits on my wifi card, I can pop open a console and ifconfig wlan0 down the bitch instead of flushing the entire machine state into the MS-shitter.
I LIKE 'nix because when something is working shittily, I can find out why and fix it. On MS, the box is black, unfixable. MS Vista is by leaps and bounds the worst piece of shit I've ever had to pay money for... and I bought Master of Orion 3 when it first came out.
In the best case scenario, both are easy, and 'just work'.
On windows, if none of the hardware is supported out of the box, the hardest thing you have to do is go download drivers, and then install them. Then you hit MS Update, and patch, with the firewall cranked up. Thats as bad as it gets. It may be slow (patching an xpsp2 windows, for example), but its easy and straightforward.
The worst case scenaior on Linux is much, much worse. Situations where video doesnt work, at all, without grub changes, or finding an 'alternate' install disc. Where you have to poke through arcane 'blacklist' files to prefer one driver or another. Where you have to download the windows driver for the wifi for it to work with yet another piece of software. Where 3d hardware 'just wont work'. Where the laptop buttons and special features 'just dont work'. Same with hibernate/standby.
So yeah, when Linux works, in the best-case scenario, its better than even the best case windows scenario, because apt-get update and apt-get upgrade are superior to MS Update. But in every situation below that, its much, much worse.
It's almost sounds like Dell is in it for the PR cred for saying "at least we tried".
Really, it's not exactly rocket science to config up a working installation of Ubuntu for most hardware. Come on, Dell. You preconfigure the windows boxes with drivers and essential software, so you should do it for the Linux boxes too!
Stop the brainwash
Quicktime/iTunes (pisses me off that they are so tied together these days)
Well, you can't use iTunes without Quicktime for obvious reasons. However, you can install Quicktime without iTunes just fine. No idea what you mean with "tied together"...
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Actually, with linux, you can be a complete novice and not have to worry about malware, nor viruses. Its one thing on the agenda (or the article) that wasn't mentioned. No anti-virus software ships with Linux. The built-in firewall and network stack (part of the operating system) are used in many commercial routers because they are extremely advanced, and don't let malicious software touch the rest of the system (they never get in, and can't break anything). You don't have to know anything at all about it, and you are still safe and protected (nothing to update, nothing to tweak, change or install). I have been running it for more than a decade. No virus, no malware.
... this may be anecdotal experience, but I hear the same things or worse from friends and family running Vista. I'm sure I sound trollish, but I'm honestly relaying what I hear from Vista users.
i find this interesting. basically the geeks in their mothers' basements have produced an operating system that can go head to head with the best the richest monopoly in the world can offer and fails because "the touchpad is a bit sensitive" and "you have to download extra codecs"
we should be celebrating this, if those are the best reasons against using linux. the list of reasons against using windows is a lot longer and a lot more powerful.
Two words: Divx, Windows. You're done.
some old guy who can't configure a touchpad, thats who. Older people have degraded neural functions, its little suprise he struggled with basic functionality. Time to put the old boy down, damn shame too.
prepare the survey weasels.
"open-source developers often have an imperfect feel for how average people use software".
Oh my god he said it all in just one sentence. Awesome.
I think there can be improvements made to Linux to make it more user friendly. I'm sure that Dell and Ubuntu will respond positively to critcism and only use it to improve their products.
Linux is not the only operating system that the average user struggles with. Windows users regularly call on me for help to fix and install stuff, especially when they buy a new system.
But XP and OSX are in for the win. Vista is just too ahead of itself for current software and hardware.
Absolutely.
But maybe the reality is that we should live with the current organic growth of Linux on the desktop and not go mad about this.
I think the evidence is clear that Linux is growing on the desktop, admittedly from a very low base but it is clearly above 1% now whereas for a long time it seemed to be stuck permanently at 0.5%. OK 1% doesn't seem like a lot as a proportion, but it *is* a lot of machines.
As we creep up to 2% I think more and more hardware manufacturers will take notice and more and more drivers will be available - indeed the signs are that is already happening. And as that happens growth will accelerate. And that will be a self-sustaining process.
But I also don't think we should play the game with stuff like MP3 patents. It means Linux will forever be the power-users' OS, but that it will also be the guardian against the closed system. What's the point of free software if you have to compromise your freedom?
Broadcom Wireless Card? Known problem very likely. Broadcom doesn't release technical details on its stupid hardware, so the Linux driver doesn't work with some broadcom chips. The answer is to use a Windows driver via ndiswrapper. Amazingly perhaps, that often works. But you'll probably be even madder by the time you get ndiswrapper working.
If Vista works for you, fine. Just remember that Microsoft clearly considers its interests to be more important than yours. The risk that MS will eventually lock you into MS software and demand periodic ransom payments increases a bit every year. Home machine? Sure, use NT based Windows if you can stand the slow response to keystrokes and mouseclicks and can keep the kids from downloading malware. Business machine? Best be working on an exit strategy.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
That would be a good idea. Perhaps even just a pop-up bubble saying "start here". As to all the replies about mp3 support, Ubuntu's philosophy is such that it doesn't natively install ANYTHING proprietary (ie MP3s). It IS simple to install the relevant codecs when you run RhythmBox, but the average Windows user who's trying to start Ubuntu will wonder why the hell it doesn't ship with it. Dell could have shipped its computers with Mint Linux, which has all these pre-installed, but they're a much less "major" linux distro (based on Ubuntu in fact). Another thing I love about Ubuntu (and Linux in general), is Compiz - why pay for Vista Ultimate/Mega/Uber edition (whatever they call it) for the "Aero Experience", when Compiz/Beryl can do it all for free, on less memory... Sorry for that last bit - perhaps a bit of trolling there - but anyone that doesn't mind a bit of searching on forums and google for solutions to hardware problems (which Ubuntu DOES have - wireless is notoriously tricky to get working) should really try it. It knocks the socks of Windows once you've played a while...
Ubuntu user #11075
As a backhanded compliment, yes, he does sound like an average user. No explanation of _why_ there aren't proprietary codecs and DVD capability. The same old false comparison that linux takes some knowledge to maintain but, of course, any old grandma can install drivers and devices on Windows.
But he has some points. No control panel? Not on KDE but Ubuntu is natively Gnome. Video stuttering? Really? Like to hear more about that hardware or maybe the display driver. And the fact that some modules are "ugly" or might "taint" the kernel isn't something grandma wants to hear, is it? That latter point speaks a little to developer humor and frank individualism. Linux has had quite a bit of it and, unfortunately, it probably should be restrained. Like the K3b redesign. My heart sank a little, as it always does, to see the quirky splash replaced with slick professionalism. But something unobtusive like that probably is what appeals to the greater number of people.
Ah well.
It's nice to know you did the 'right thing' anyway.
There's been quite a few power management hda-codec commits to alsa 1.0.15rc2 so hopefully this bug will be fixed in mainline before too long.
I've purchased two Dell computers recently, one preloaded with Ubuntu, another with Vista. I've configured both to dual boot. Here's as difficult as it was to do: http://my.opera.com/djfake/blog/ Is it that difficult to add MP3 support to Ubuntu? No. Flash? No. It takes a few commands and a few minutes. Ubuntu 7.04 has come a long way. Sure, it can still go further in terms of usability, and yes, the whole "restricted drivers" is something that prevents it from reaching the masses. But, call an apple an apple. Dell's Ubuntu machines were not "preinstalled with an OS" the same way an Apple is with Mac OS X or a PC is with Windows whatever.
Walt's definition of an "average computer user" is someone that can operate a toaster. In my experience with sysadmin and helpdesk, "the average user" would enjoy a far better experience with ANY computer, if they took the time to think of it "beyond a toaster". It's really not that difficult, and one great thing about Linux is that it's perfect for learning computing basics. c
www.itjerk.com
[Quick disclaimer here: I am not new to Linux. I have tried a number of distros, and have used Slackware since it was SLS.]
.config i know to work well on that hardware. Again it spat the dummy. At this point, so did I.
I made several attempts a few weeks ago to install Feisty on an oldish but useful, well-supported box.
Try as I might, I could not get the thing to boot properly, despite having let the installer take default options for almost everything. However, on boot-up, it bitched and moaned about my bog-standard IDE hard drives, which presumably due to some idiocy perpretrated on initrd showed up as sdxx rather than hdxx.
Eventually, after bullying the thing through the boot process, I then set about building my kernel, using a
I think I had an easier time of it with Linux From Scratch; at least my idiocies are my own. Needless to say, that machine is now happily running on Slackware again.
My point is that in this case, Ubuntu is entirely comparable to a number of versions of Windows that I have encountered, and I was disappointed because I had expected better. No-one expects Slackware to be intuitive for the novice, and I am comfortable with that. But a distribution ostensibly designed to be approachable to the novice should at least boot out of the box.
http://www.debuntu.org/how-to-connect-to-a-cisco-vpn-using-vpnc
You shouldn't have to install the shitty Cisco VPN software and binary kernel modules just to make an IPSEC VPN tunnel... and the kernel breaking Citrix sounds like a bunch of bullshit really. I can see updates to X.org breaking icaclient if the libraries changed versions, but AFAIK it's statically linked with Motif so...
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
yes the car does one thing, and it's had years to perfect doing it. any engineer will tell you that if you design a machine to do several things at once, it will be far more prone to malfunction and harder to maintain than a single purpose machine. this is not to say that the PC is a flawed design; it's to say that "mainstream users" don't understand that the PC is a machine with no clearly defined function or purpose and that it should be treated as such.
if i built a factory to make anything on a moment's notice, using the manufacturing equivalent of lego blocks, conventional wisdom would say that i had lost my mind. yet that is what the PC does... either with windows, or mac os, or linux. it does "anything" by using software, the computing equivalent of lego blocks.
nothing "just works". compared to earlier v windows doesn't, macs don't, nothing does. it's up there with "the check is in the mail" and "i won't cum in your mouth" as some of the greatest lies ever told to unwitting suckers. we all know this because we all know computers, but for some reason linux gets held to a higher standard because it requires "ordinary" people to learn something new instead of tolerating something that's been wrong for years. some how, learning how to edit a text file or type a command in a window is heinous compared to removing (or pating someone to remove) spyware and viruses, or buying additional software to make your machine useful.
and when i say "edit a text file" or "type a command in a window" i really mean, "use google to find what you need and copy and paste it in the appropriate place" it's most heinous, egregious even. why would i do something so onerous when i can just reinstall windows every 6 months, or manually navigate the morass that is the windows registry, or just buy another suite of tools to protect me from the security flaws inherent in the first suite of tools i bought?
does more progress need to be made in linux? absolutely. but the unwashed computing masses need to step up and learn a thing or two as well. they need to learn that the "accepted way" of doing things is no longer acceptable, and that there are worse things in the world than the command line, like treacherous computing, loss of privacy, and data corruption from system failures.
sarcasm:
-noun
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
There was a Little Company That Could. In a field crowded with giants, the Little Company That Could out-maneuvered them all. Until one day the Little Company That Could wanted more press as a way to get the message out.
The Little Company That Could attempted to hire a PR firm with some previous success reaching the Wizard. "We are employed by your competitors the Giants. Go away!" What made this unusual was that *every* firm with access to The Wizard was, somehow employed by the Giants. So, the Little Company That Could decided to go see the Tech Wizard of WSJ by themselves.
The Little Company That Could knocked on the Wizard's door. A voice from behind the door yelled "Who are you?" "I am the Little Company That Could and I have great products your readers love." "I am only a humble writer. I have ethics and do not wish to speak with layabouts like you. Go away!"
The Little Company That Could was determined to have The Wizard review his product. The founder of The Little Company That Could spent boatloads of money entertaining, and influencing the Tech Wizard's friends and colleagues. Paying to participate in Tech Wizard events, Advertising in the Tech Wizards newspaper. "I am spending money like crazy with nothing to show for my efforts!" cried the founder of The Little Company That Could.
So, the Little Company That Could went back to satisfying customers. The Little Company That Could, and its customers lived happily ever after.
Yeah, thanx - I've tried to get NDISwrapper going a couple of times but eventually went on to more important work.
The wireless card is an Atheros- they are also notoriously bad with linux.
And yes I must spend more time with Madwifi.
But as I said above, most of Ubuntu seems just fine, other than some key points.
Hmmnn.. it's been a couple of months now; maybe I'll get my trusty dusty old CAT5 cable out and see if there's any new Ubuntu updates!
I suspect if I re-installed Ubuntu, the problems would be cleared up. But reinstall? update?
Gads- I only have a dial here.
Thanx.
- Ecsad Essemal
The Hexadecimal TV-REMOTE!
I think the more important lesson is your unfounded faith in facts. Facts are carefully defined propaganda first. Second, they communicate who/what/when/where/why. Let's take Walt's Ubuntu FIRST in-depth opinion.
"...it is full of little complications and hassles that will quickly frustrate most people who just want to use their computers, not maintain or tweak them." That may be a fact to him, but my Dad and family and another 5-6 desktops I've installed have no such experience. And no, I didn't need to tweak the installs. Touchpads and all. Who's got the fact right?
Here's the closer which displays much of Redmond's influence. "nobody is ultimately responsible for the quality of the product," Nobody? Not even Dell? A simple observation of all OSS projects shows that every one of them has a leader! Shocking but true. So which "fact" is right? Walt's or mine? My opinion is that editorial like that displays Walt's consistently spoon-fed propaganda that has no basis in reality.
Keep shouting me down, because that's much easier than even considering the possibility that the system works differently than you believe. I think it's sufficient to say there's lots of different and clever ways to skin a cat.
Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
Did someone hear a weird noise? Like a twitter post? Hmmm. Must be posting under the trolls and crapflooders now so I can't see it. Oh well.
The guy didnt ASK for anything - he's a fucking journalist and he wrote a review. Reviews are open to further review and CRITICISM. I post three paragraphs of valid points and one sentence taking the reviewer to task in personal fashion and you think that makes me a troll? Obviously you have never seen FOX NEWS.
Before blathering on more bullshit about something which you obviously know nothing of why don't you visit the ubuntu forums? You will find there HUNDREDS of posts from me in which I (like so many others) helped countless people there, most of whom ask the same questions already answered days or weeks before because they're either incapable of locating the answer using the fairly feeble "search" or they are simply too lazy. Not once have I smacked someone down for this, although I have had numerous runins with egomaniacal admins to the point I eventually was kicked. Point being, yeah I'm an asshole but I have never smacked down a newbie for not knowing anything - a point I though I made abundantly clear by mentioning "shop" and "customers." Kinda hard to have many of those when you go around pissing people off and belittling them.
Point of fact: It would be economic suicide to convert many windows users over to linux. Its not something that is suggested for everyone and, in fact, I'm fairly selective about it. The shop owner is even more selective about it. Not because most people are too stupid to use linux but because WINDOWS IS BRITTLE AND BREAKS. P2P software is one of the best tools for doing this - and everyone seems to want to run it.
god bless Kazaa! With the help of this tool alone, Windows breaks so easily in the hands of "typical users" that the simple act of backing up data and reloading machines constitutes a significant income flow. In fact, it's probably 75% of the shop's traffic.
If everyone coming into "my" shop were converted to linux, the shop would soon be out of business - machines would go out the door and the people who paid for them would never return until something mechanical failed. This is where Vista presents a potential problem - all the folks coming into the shop now with newer pcs who are utterly frustrated by Vista and want it GONE. Given the choice of paying nearly 200 bucks to reload it with XP or 60 bucks to reload it with ubuntu, many are choosing linux. Might be good for linux market share, but who cares? Most shops would rather have the repeat business.
SO you saying Linux is so bloated that it is useless. Ducks
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Windows Media Player does a not bad job finding most of the of codecs I run across
Your chances to play a random avi from the net are very slim, and windows will certainly fail to look up the codec. Anyway, Ubuntu, since 7.04, does exactly what you want, and it works, apart from the language polish issues that TFA mentioned, and some legal warnings (which are also not pretty, but that's not for Ubuntu to change).
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
He loaded what was billed as a fully featured OS.
You sure of that? Ubuntu certainly does not advertise it that way, and I doubt Dell does.
These days, what part of what a fully featured OS is assumed to provide is default support for a wide range of multimedia. If it doesn't work out of the box, it should be seamless.
By this definition, windows is out. avi? mp3 encoder?
If Windows or OSX is fed a video or audio file it doesn't support, it goes looking for a codec and often has it installed before you know anything it wrong.
As I said in my other rely, this is blatantly not true, as anyone knows who ever used Windows with a variety of movie files from questionable sources (but that's just how it is). http://www.google.com/search?q=windows+avi+%22cannot+play%22.
If Linux doesn't do this, should he care why?
Ubuntu 7.04, as sold by Dell, does exactly this, and works
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
Automatix (the software to install programs - right?) should get a huge mention
Wrong, and wrong.
First, Automatix is not "the software to install programs". That's Synaptic (in menu System|Administration) or, if you want it easier, menu Applications|Add/Remove Software. (Or, if you want command line, apt-get or aptitude).
Second, Automatix is a piece of crap that breaks installs: http://mjg59.livejournal.com/77440.html
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
For what OS is a spreadsheet or a mail administration system a basic function? These are outside programs and not truly part of the OS. Sure Ubuntu, for instance, ships with both. If Microsoft did that, they'd get slammed (Internet Explorer, anyone?) I'm not standing up for any OS here, though I prefer an OS that has all my basic needs fulfilled at the outset. For me, that means Linux, though I understand Macs do this too. Really, I'm waiting to see how the new Lotus suite reviews go.
"Little is much when little you need."
How did I get modded troll for standing up (mostly) for tfa?
"Little is much when little you need."
In short it's not perfect, but will work for the average user. I ended up installing Ubuntu on my Uncle's computer. He has 3 kids that play flash games when not grounded. They kept getting bogged down with assorted spyware. This is after several clean installs and numerous hours spent cleaning out the extra crap. He was scared at first and his kids didn't care as long as they could play their games. I promised I would be there for any help and if he didn't like it after a month I would put windows back. After the Inital setup making sure his mail worked & had flash installed. It has been 16 months and I've gone over maybe twice for oddball things like playing DVD's and setting up software. So in the end he was happy the kids we're happy & I can go over and not spend hours fixing his computer, rather just spend time with family.