How Schools Can Get Free Software

RicJD writes "The BBC is reporting on a school in England which has found a way to save money through Open Source Software. It goes on to explain the idea behind OSS, and briefly how they've incorporated it into the school system. Could this be the way to show the UK government that savings can be had through OSS?" Likely an adoption spurred by the education report we reported on earlier this year.

Comments

How Schools Can Get Cheap Software:

[AEton]

Make a credible threat to switch to free software.
(Submit your school's "migration plan" to the BBC. Just in case Microsoft doesn't read that, Slashdot the story!)

Re:How Schools Can Get Cheap Software:

[Alex P Keaton in da]

There is a very, very real danger in students using free software- they may develop a crazy idea that information should be accesible to everyone, and reasonably priced and GASP even free!!!
Next thing you know these crazy kids will be downloading free copies of Boy George hits, drinking excessive amounts of YooHoo, and having parties where more than 10 people watch a movie on DVD without paying royalties!!!!
This needs to be stopped now! Ship windows! Ship windows!!!!!!! Why isn't Geldoff taking up this cause!

Re:How Schools Can Get Cheap Software:

[Anonymous Coward]

They can't be saving that much money
Note they run Citrix servers on MS terminal services.
Not a cheap combination!

http://citrix.parrswood.manchester.sch.uk/pwonline /onlindex.html

Re:How Schools Can Get Cheap Software:

[Anonymous Coward]

Also dont teach them science, they may get the crazy idea to develop some sort of new biologic weapon!

Dont teach them english, they might learn bad words.
Dont teach them how to write, they might write a microsoft's patented word.

Mr. Alex P. Keaton, dont let a computer raise your kids, teach them moral values, be a good father to them and they will be allright. And you & your family will be having a great time using open source and spending the money you've saved on whatever you and your family desire. Anonymous Coward

Re:How Schools Can Get Cheap Software:

[jeffy210]

"and having parties where more than 10 people watch a movie on DVD without paying royalties!!!!"

Actually, I have a question about that. Is there a limit to the number of people that is considered to be a private viewing? Seriously, if I had a party and had 20 of my friends over to watch a movie, would I *technically* have to pay royalties? Or does the public/private debate end when I start charging to see it? (though does that include BYOB)

Re:How Schools Can Get Cheap Software:

[jc42]

There is a very, very real danger in students using free software- they may develop a crazy idea that information should be accesible to everyone, and reasonably priced and GASP even free!!!

Yeah; if we're not careful, they might also discover that there are these subversive places called "libraries", where you can read entire books for free. They've been operating in the open for years, despite all the efforts of the publishing industry to shut them down.

Wouldn't want those kids getting any radical ideas about learning stuff for free, now would we?

Re:How Schools Can Get Cheap Software:

[Anonymous Coward]

How schools can get free software:
Find something to sue Microsoft for and in turn they will likely award you "free software" if you win the case...

i say this jokingly, but also in criticism of our legal system. in short, it may be funny, but it's true...

Re:How Schools Can Get Cheap Software:

[zedmelon]

i say this jokingly, but also in criticism of our legal system. in short, it may be funny, but it's true...

I say this seriously, but also in criticism of your post. In short, your joke may be funny, but if it requires explanation, it's probably not.

Especially if it's not true.

Re:How Schools Can Get Cheap Software:

[Zonnald]

I think that if your friends pay you to see the DVD then it becomes a *Public* viewing.

Re:How Schools Can Get Cheap Software:

[innerweb]

No more than ten people can watch a DVD at the same time? Holy Cow, I need to cancel my son's parties. He has 15 to 25 people over every other weekend.

InnerWeb

Re:How Schools Can Get Cheap Software:

[Alsee]

Is there a limit to the number of people that is considered to be a private viewing?

No. At least not under US law. "Private viewing" is not directly defined... only public performance or public display is restricted. The law defines that as follows:

To perform or display a work "publicly" means--
(1) to perform or display it at a place open to the public or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered
(2) to transmit... [blah blah blah, irrelevant here]

So lets say you have a wedding with a hundred of your family, friends, and business acquaintances, plus a hundred of your fiancee's family, friends, and business acquaintances, plus a dozen staff serving food and drinks etc. You have 212 people, but 200 of them qualify as normal socical relations, your wedding is presumably not open to the public, and the dozen service staff would not under the circumstances qualify as a substantial number of people outside your social circle. You can therefore proform any and all music you like, and you can even rent and preform all of the latest DVD movie releases as well.

There in no limit on the number of people itself, but I doubt you could realisticly claim - and convince a judge - that you actually have ten thousand people in your social circle. Chuckle.

Or does the public/private debate end when I start charging to see it? (though does that include BYOB)

In principal charging is not prohibited, but it would open you to extra scrutiny and you could easily cross the line and get in trouble if you try to abuse it. In fact at the above wedding people are expected to give gifts, and an expectation of receiving a gift is often legally treated the same as charging. So no, no problem.

IANAL, but I have spent an far too much time reading copyright law and court rulings on the subject.

-

Re:How Schools Can Get Cheap Software:

[Alsee]

No, not if it is actually restricted to your social circle. The most obvious counter example is that there is no reason you can't split the cost of a rental. In effect you are requiring payment for permission to remain in your home for the viewing.

I wrote a far more detailed answer, complete with legal definition, in reply to the original question post.

-

Re:How Schools Can Get Cheap Software:

[Alsee]

Next thing you know these crazy kids will be downloading free copies of Boy George hits & advocating gay marriage, drinking excessive amounts of YooHoo & protesting milk contaminated by antibiotics and growth hormones, having parties where more than 10 people watch a movie on DVD without paying royalties... at Communist party meetings!!!!

-

Re:How Schools Can Get Cheap Software:

[jeffy210]

Wow, thank you. That makes sense. I just wasn't sure if this was a case of law actually being logical :)

Schoolforge-UK

[alanw]

Schoolforge-UK is an organisation that is working together to implement open content resources using Free, Libre Open Source Software (FLOSS) in UK education

The are organizing a conference in Bolton next week: on Thursday 14th & Friday 15th July 2005.

Re:Schoolforge-UK

[jd]

As the dentists would say, never forget to FLOSS.

Re:Schoolforge-UK

[Anonymous Coward]

Why though? I have just finished my last year in the UK school system and I've read slashdot since about Yr9.

As such, I've watched the rest of my class 'learn'. Most work is done in Access, Excel and Word and a little bit of Outlook.

I can say hand on heart as a Linux user most of what they would of learnt in the *nix land would of not been applicable to the Windows world. Access especially - the tools on Linux don't match up at all from what I've seen.

Even more importantly they would really, really struggle to get Linux sysadmins. They struggle to get Windows MSCEs (rural area) so I really doubt they'd be able to get one linux person, nevermind the 2 they have. Considering the amount of issues that would arise because of a switchover, they would need at least one extra sysadmin to handle all the problems.

Not only that, they get it _FREE_. Microsoft gives them a free site license like most schools will get.

I don't see what the incentive is. If your school isn't getting a free site license, they should be. Microsoft gives most schools free licenses these days.

Re:Schoolforge-UK

[spectre_240sx]

I could be alone here, but having been a sysadmin for a small college using all Macs, I can't imagine what a nightmare it would be to support as many Windows computers as you probably have in your school. I'd have nightmares just thinking about it. I think a lot more knowledgable people would be much more interested in running a school that operates in a Linux environment. Overall, it's just easier to keep the machines all up and running.

As for the tools being different in the Windows world and the Linux world, I can't really see all that many differences. Learning OpenOffice would be just fine imho. When you learn things like word processors or spreadsheets, you're mostly learning about how to organize information. Sure, there's always the part about teaching where everything is in the program, all the menus etc. If it's taught well, though, someone who learned on OpenOffice should be able to work with MS Office without much trouble. As for Access, I'm not sure what options there are for teaching that software. If I heard right, Base (the Access replacement in OO.o) is supposed to be a decent competitor. Maybe it would suffice. Again, they should be learning more about how the data is organized rather than absolute specifics.

Re:Schoolforge-UK

[alanw]

As such, I've watched the rest of my class 'learn'. Most work is done in Access, Excel and Word and a little bit of Outlook.

A school should a place where students are taught to understand the concepts behind things, not a place where they are trained to push buttons.

Not only that, they get it _FREE_. Microsoft gives them a free site license like most schools will get.

He gives the kids free samples,
Because he knows full well
That today's young innocent faces
Will be tomorrow's clientele.

The Old Dope Peddler -- Tom Lehrer.

I for one, agree

[Grep*coke*]

This sounds like the best idea an education system, whether it be the UK or the US, has ever had. All schools could save hundreds of dollars by using Linux instead of Windows, and it would give kids a better background. Also, it might encourage the development of more OSS by the students.

Re:I for one, agree

[fr0dicus]

A better background? I'd say a fairlt irrelevant grounding for the average kid not destined for a career in IT.

Re:I for one, agree

[garcia]

All schools could save hundreds of dollars by using Linux instead of Windows, and it would give kids a better background.

A better background in what? Using OSS software instead of Microsoft software? In the real world (yes, there are some exceptions) people use Microsoft Office. HR drones and automated readers reviewing your resumes aren't going to understand that Open Office is like Microsoft Office. They want to see Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, and Microsoft Access on your resume, not their OSS counterparts.

Also, it might encourage the development of more OSS by the students.

Why? Because a machine that's running OSS will somehow be any less locked down by the admins than a similar Windows workstation? Give me a break.

Yes, Linux is less money and should be used in schools to give the taxpayers a break. It should not be thought of as anything other than a tool though. The students will use a web browser, an office suite, and e-mail. They aren't going to be using it any differently than if they were using Windows.

Re:I for one, agree

[ThosLives]

While I don't know that I can comment on your claim that using [alternative 1] is a "better background" than [alternative 2] (such a qualitative statement requires what you mean by 'better'), I often wonder about the long-term economics of software gratis.

The question boils down to how the producers of "free" software make a living. If they have a low enough cost of living to spend their free time writing software to give away, then this is great. This is actually whay I think is happening, because folks wouldn't do anything that takes away from their time to earn a living. This is great because it means that the producers of the software are not, from their standpoint, losing anthing.

The only way I can see students being "encouraged to produce open source software" is to reduce the cost of living so people have the free time and resources to write it and to foster altruism so people will use that free time to help others.

The dangers I see here are that governments are typically not good at using cost savings to improve services; I think a lot more civic involvement would help ensure that costs are kept in check and services up to par - and that is true even with "proprietary" software use.

Re:I for one, agree

[Anonymous Coward]

This sounds like the best idea an education system, whether it be the UK or the US, has ever had. All schools could save hundreds of dollars by using Linux instead of Windows, and it would give kids a better background. Also, it might encourage the development of more OSS by the students.

But what happens when the kids get a job and have to work with Windows, Office etc?

Re:I for one, agree

[Approaching.sanity]

That is one of the more horrible things I think you could have said.

IT is pervasive in modern society. It not only runs our work lives as a tool, it is also recreation and education. The more exposure you have to more kinds of software the better equiped you are to deal with more situations.

If we use your arguement then we should not require all students to take science courses as they will not all be using the knowlege of what a mol is in their every day lives.

Re:I for one, agree

[jbolden]

"HR drones" don't come from mars they come from the very school systems we are talking about. They believe that their job should involve pattern matching instead of understanding because non honors courses in school emphasize regurgitation instead of understanding (often the honors courses do as well).

Correcting the use of Microsoft software and switching over to a Unix frame of mind could potential aid in fixing the larger problem.

Re:I for one, agree

[Aldric]

"A better background in what? Using OSS software instead of Microsoft software? In the real world (yes, there are some exceptions) people use Microsoft Office. HR drones and automated readers reviewing your resumes aren't going to understand that Open Office is like Microsoft Office. They want to see Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, and Microsoft Access on your resume, not their OSS counterparts."

If schools all use free software (as they should, I don't see why my taxes should go to Microsoft) then the HR drones aren't going to have much choice but to learn that an office suite is an office suite no matter who the vendor is.

Re:I for one, agree

[Kjella]

A better background in what? In the real world people use Microsoft Office. HR drones and automated readers (...) want to see Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, and Microsoft Access on your resume, not their OSS counterparts.

Just my experience:
a) I don't have a single class that specifies it as using Microsoft tools.
b) If you have the office skills, check off for MS Office. You'll adapt quickly.
c) Even if the above were not true, only the last school matters. If I had used OpenOffice from 7-16yo, then MS Office 16-19yo, noone would know, notice or care. Actually since I got a degree, it seems noone cares what I did between 7-19yo, only 19-24yo.

Kjella

Re:I for one, agree

[colinrichardday]

So schools are for nothing more than indoctrinating students into the PHB view of computers?

Re:I for one, agree

[swimin]

Linux can be slightly less locked down than windows, Im not sure if schools do it - but things like User Mode Linux can allow students to do whatever they want in a self-contained, secure environment.

Re:I for one, agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? Because a machine that's running OSS will somehow be any less locked down by the admins than a similar Windows workstation? Give me a break.

Why? Because with F/OSS the students will be able to afford the same software that's being used in school. How many elementary students can afford SQLServer? Or Visual Studio? Or even Microsoft Office, to use your example.

Re:I for one, agree

[Anonymous Coward]

"They want to see Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, and Microsoft Access on your resume, not their OSS counterparts."

I don't disagree with that but thank heavens at least one company isn't requiring that. Google sent out a request for résumés on the Python users group at the company I work for. They required your résumé in plain text format and specifically mention do not use a MS Word document.

Re:I for one, agree

[bobcat7677]

I think the main obsticle is people resistant to change and afraid of things they aren't framilliar with. I approached the technology director at my old high school about using linux instead of buying lots of windows licenses when a truckload of older computers were donated from a business. The response: "I don't know about that linux stuff, it sounds radical." She walked away and I decided not to try further to convince someone who thinks linux is a tool of the anarchists.

Re:I for one, agree

[colinrichardday]

It doesn't have to be any less locked down. However, students can compile stuff in their own directories.

Re:I for one, agree

[FauxPasIII]

> They required your résumé in plain text format and specifically mention do not use a MS Word document.

This might very well have been part of the test. It's been my experience that non-savvy Windows and Mac users often
have no concept of what "plain text" files are.

Re:I for one, agree

[chochos]

Plus, the next generation of people won't become HR drones, or if they do, they will look for people using open office and other OSS.

Re:I for one, agree

[paulymer5]

But it is likely they will encounter Windows in their everyday experiences. If they only know how to use *NIX with X windows manager / desktop environment, will they be able to competently work with a Start menu? Sure, the differences aren't necessarily too prononced, but any hesitation or lack of experience may be considered by a future employer, especially if there is another candidate who grew up with Windows.

Re:I for one, agree

[legirons]

"In the real world people use Microsoft Office."

Actually in the real world (when I was at school), people use WordPerfect for MS-DOS, and smaller companies were starting to use Lotus Ami Pro.

How would it have helped if I'd learned those applications?

We even had a fairly-major CS test at school, where one of the questions was 'what keystroke is used to right-format a line in Ami Pro'. How is information like that going to help me now, typing into a Slashdot textbox using FireFox (neither of which could even have been imagined when I was learning IT/CS)

How would teaching people Word help now? The next generation of business technology seems to be influenced by what CS graduates are using at home today, and recently that's been Linux, Free Software on Windows2000, and we're starting to see some Mac OS. If you wanted to teach in school "for business", then you would start by thinking what people will find useful in 5-10 years when they get their first jobs.

And even if you're "living in the present", why would you standardise on something that requires the parents to pay hundreds of pounds extra to do computer-related homework, when you could select an almost-identical program that you can distribute for free?

Re:I for one, agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I can't tell you the horrible problems I had when I joined the work force, coming from my background of mostly Sinclair Spectrum and Amigas. I took me literally seconds to get to grips with Windows! That sort of hesitation nearly killed my career.

Re:I for one, agree

[masterchiet]

They want to see Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, and Microsoft Access on your resume, not their OSS counterparts.

My brother just graduated from high school on a partial scholarship, and he barely knows where the Excel icon is.

Truth is, high school isn't the place for kids to develop intermediate or advanced skills in office productivity software; their needs rarely extend beyond the basics, such as how to indent a paragraph or use the sum() function.

For those purposes, OSS solutions are fine. Anything more will require college and/or work experience.

Re:I for one, agree

[paulymer5]

I work with people who are hesitant to click the My Computer icon because it's been moved from it's top-left corner. I had to explain to someone how to type capital letters.

You apparently have more skill the (sadly) dozen of people I help at my University. Well done.

Re:I for one, agree

[ILikeRed]

I know lots of people who are paid to develop free software, but only two who develop proprietary software. The proprietary developers hate their company, their work, and are looking for someplace more open. I think it's already been proven that most developers write software for in-house projects, not shrink wrapped goods.

Re:I for one, agree

[LDoggg_]

In the real world (yes, there are some exceptions) people use Microsoft Office.

Do you reall believe this tired "real world" argument? Does a high school diploma plus MS office on a resume land a good job? Will it in 10-15 years when grade school students enter the workforce?
In the real world most users of office don't use any more than the functionality that is available for free in OpenOffice.

There is no point in teaching grade school students all the nuances of the latest Microsoft offering. Unless of course, teaching brand loyalty is part of the curriculum.

Re:I for one, agree

[delire]

Well done, an astoundingly shortsighted comment there.

Any measure of thought reveals that F/OSS enriches education far more than that of their proprietary counterparts: god forbid should there ever be a time that a student does become inquisitive as to how the machine called a 'personal computer' actually works, they can browse source, read manpages and learn how they might adapt the system to their (shock) individual needs. Kids are innately inquisitive - give them a chance and they will never cease to debunk assumptions on their enthusiasm and capacity.

Even the Apple Platinum II and Amiga I poked around on years ago were infinitely more inpsiring in this regard than the god awful "f*ck off" binary ironically entitled Windows eXPerience. Frankly it's horrible that for so many new minds, this is the 'face' of computing.

The very values of Microsoft products propogate an impoverished relationship with technology, something otherwise offering a powerful cultural impetus capable of user defined extension, use and expression.

Re:I for one, agree

[Pantero Blanco]

They figure it out in ten minutes or less, if they have any proficiency at all. It's not like you need a detailed knowledge of all of Office's "special features" to use it effectively.

Re:I for one, agree

[Charles W Griswold]

[. . .] will they be able to competently work with a Start menu?

That reminds me, I need to get back to my first-draft manuscript of "The Start Button for Real Dummies".

Yea, I think that most X users can handle a Start menu. A more likely complication of learning Linux and then switching to Windows are screams of frustration at the bone-headed limitations inherent in the Windows environment. (Like the fact that you have to essentially run as root to do anything.)

Re:I for one, agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude give me a break.. why is this modded insightful.. "Unix Frame of Mind".. You mind explaining exactly what you mean by that? Chances are, these same HR Drones are going to be using a Windows manager (which for the most part behaves like Windows that they are used to).. exactly how is this going to spurn them into changing the way they do their job.. I see no direct correlation.. really.

Just because it's open source doesn't automatically mean it's going to revolutionize the way they do their job.. especially if the software isn't tailored to do specifically that.. Most OSS software they would be using (Open Office etc) merely duplicate functionality of Windows equivalent while offering a few not really notable features.

You talk like OSS is this big magical wand that magically makes people more innovative in their jobs... and I have to say that sounds like a load of shit.. sorry.

Re:I for one, agree

[webgal]

There are a couple of huge costs with open source software that everyone outside of education forgets to think about. First, schools get great deals on software. Granted it is not free, but highly, highly reduced from what individuals and corporations must pay. Secondly, most schools do not have the personnel to manage open source systems. With many schools paying tech staff around $10 - $15 an hour, they are unable to hire persons who have the expertise in OSS. Paying for consultants is usually out of the question. Because of numerous privacy laws (FERPA among others), students cannot be given enough rights to a school's network to help maintain and implement OSS (assuming they had the knowledge). Lastly, very little curriculum or training materials for open source software is available. There are mountains of books and other materials available for purchased software (sometimes given to schools for free). Many educators do no have the time to learn new software, alter the curriculum and create new training materials. As a high school teacher, I was responsible for over 160 students a day. Don't get me wrong - I love open source software, and nothing would make me happier to see open source software in the schools. The hurdles and the cost to implement open source software (staffing, training, and new educational documentation) is too high to make the switch.

Re:I for one, agree

[jbolden]

I wish you would get an account, I don't generally reply to ACs but this was polite so...

"Unix Frame of Mind".. You mind explaining exactly what you mean by that?

There are lots of references art of unix programming has a good summary of some of the major ones.

Basically building systems with the assumption they will be incorporated into other systems in unexpected ways. This forces a flexible frame of mind which is very unlike what the GP was complaining about.

Just because it's open source doesn't automatically mean it's going to revolutionize the way they do their job.. especially if the software isn't tailored to do specifically that.. Most OSS software they would be using (Open Office etc) merely duplicate functionality of Windows equivalent while offering a few not really notable features.

Obviously open office in and of itself does nothing to change people's way of thinking. The question is whether openoffice opens the door to the Unix way of thinking or not.

Re:I for one, agree

[spectre_240sx]

Great, so maybe we'll actually start training generations of people who realize that there is more than one operating system out there. I think this is probably one of the biggest things that's kept Microsoft on top. At least in my area, most people my age and under know windows because that's all we had at the school.

Besides that, with all the copying that KDE and Gnome have done of Windows, the differences really should not be that hard to overcome. Computers are a needed skill now just like reading and writing. If someone can't figure out the basics of how to get around an OS then they need to go back to computer class and learn it before they graduate. They sure as hell wouldn't pass English if they didn't know how to use at least basic grammar.

I see my town as sortof a backwards place, but for quite some time now it's been a requirement that you pass a certain computer literacy requirement or you don't graduate highschool. I wish this would be taken more seriously, because we've already gotten to the point where our lives depend on computers and I don't think it's going to go backwards anytime soon.

Re:I for one, agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Consider the radioastronomer. He is paid (if he is lucky) to explain to the rest of us what the structure of the early universe is.

At http://www.lofar.org/, he will have to write a ton of software to work the radiotelescope. No-one will do it for him.

But he'll give it away free, libre, gratis. If there's a bug, he wants to know. If someone else wants to make a bigger radiotelescope, he'll want to use it.

Going to court on the back of copyright or patent law to stop someone using it will be the last thing on his mind. Or his employer's.

Re:I for one, agree

[Master of Transhuman]

It's always funny to see idiots say that because Microsoft is a monopoly and most people are taught to use Windows software, that therefore it will never be any different and it's completely useless to try to teach anyone anything else but Microsoft.

Tell that to the IBM System/34 programmers from back in the 1970's.

Fucking moron.

If the educational system was worth a shit in the first place - which it is NOT - people wouldn't be taught ANY particular system. They would be taught the PRINCIPLES of systems with examples from the major contenders and encouraged to use whichever one they thought they liked the best for some hopefully RATIONAL reason other than "it came with my computer".

Instead, the so-called "educational establishment" accepts free software and "support" from Microsoft and in turn becomes unpaid Microsoft recruiters along with acceding to demands by equally brain-dead CIOs and corporations in their area to teach "business relevant" courses intended to cookie-cutter people into corporate job descriptions.

It's a fucking joke all around. Al Qaeda needs to dive-bomb some airliners into some Boards of Education buildings and the National Education Association and some corporate HQs (starting with Microsoft).

Re:I for one, agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Have an account .. don't feel like logging at work.. Thanks for the honest reply.

The "story" might spread but I still feel like it's wishful thinking. My point was that it seems to me that even if it did move toward OSS, that it would not be enough spur people into new modes of thinking. OSS is not innovative enough in itself to drive such thought other than to a fringe group of users (this is not flamebait, just my honest opinion) .. the majority of users use windows in a certain way.. oss offers many of these same paths only with slightly different steps to achieve... to me this does not automatically equal to changing people's mindset on they do their job.

Re:I for one, agree

[deaddrunk]

Unfortunately when one company has such a huge stranglehold on the market copying is the first way to erode their market share. IBM's hold on the mainframe market was first seriously challenged by Amdahl offering the same thing for less money, not by Unix and later on Windows.

Re:I for one, agree

[jbolden]

I don't know whether you ever were at a Unix workplace, that is a workplace where the majority of users were Unix users. Its a lot like how offices were in the Windows for Workgroups days. Because everything (or at least lots of stuff) was free people freely used their choice of apps. They looked for information using a variety of tools. Everyone had different meta apps (Emacs vs. Perl vs. screen...). People script.

The NT revolution with the locked down systems and management by "IS Helpdesks" was horribly oppressive.


The Greek gave the lower workman no subject which he could not perfectly execute. The Assyrian gave him subjects which he could only execute imperfectly, but fixed a legal standard for his imperfection. The workman was, in both systems, a slave. But in the Medieval, or especially Christian, system of ornament, this slavery is done away with altogether;

... [G]o forth again to gaze upon the old cathedral front, where you have smiled so often at the fantastic ignorance of the old sculptors: examine once more those ugly goblins, and formless monsters, and stern statues, anatomiless and rigid; but do not mock at them, for they are signs of life and liberty of every workman who struck the stone; a freedom of thought, and rank in scale of being, such as no laws, no charters, no charities can secure; but which it must be the first aim of all Europe at this day to regain for her children.

... Enough, I trust has been said to show the render that the rudeness or imperfection which at first rendered the term "Gothic" one of reproach, is indeed, when rightly understood, one of themost noble charcters of Christian architecture, and not only a noble one but an essential one. It seems a fantastic paradox, but it is nevertheless a most important truth, that no architecture can be truly noble which is not imperfect. And this is easily demonstrable. For since the architect, whom we will suppose capable of doing all in perfection, cannot execute the whole with his own hands, he must either make slaves of his workmen in the old Greek, and present English fashion, and level his work to a slave's capacities, which is to degrade it; or else he must take his workmen as he finds them, and let them show their weaknesses together with their strength, which will involve the Gothic imperfection, but render the whole work as noble as the intellect of the age can make it.

But the principle may be stated more broadly still. I have confined the illustration of it to architecture, but I must not leave it as if true of architecture only. Hitherto I have used the words imperfect and perfect merely to distinguish between work grossly unskillful, and work executed with average precision and science; and I have been pleading that any degree of unskilfulness should be admitted, so only that the labourer's mind had room for expression. But, accurately speaking, no good work whatever can be perfect, and the demand for perfection is always a sign of a misunderstanding of the ends of art...

--Ruskin "The Nature of the Gothic".

Re:I for one, agree

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the point here is that people will be stupid no matter what you teach them at school. That shouldn't be a surprise.

Re:I for one, agree

[INGOTMANAGER]

We have set up a programme of certification called International Grades in Office Technology in collaboration with the OpenOffice.org community at www.theINGOTs.org. This certificates basic IT skills with an emphasis on understanding open standards and at the top level the student has to contribute something useful to the OOo project. This means more kids know hoe to take part in an open source project from an early age, boosts the contributions to OOo, provides a reason to install OOo on a school network as educational software irrespective of whether the school uses MSO and generates an income stream for development from certification fees. We are making some money and will give 1000 ECU to the OOo conference this year as well as investin further development. We have 134 Assessors in 10 countries at present but only launched last September so we are optimistic about growth.More information at the FLOSSIE conference!

Re:I for one, agree

[1u3hr]

But it is likely they will encounter Windows in their everyday experiences. If they only know how to use *NIX with X windows manager / desktop environment, will they be able to competently work with a Start menu? Sure, the differences aren't necessarily too prononced, but any hesitation or lack of experience may be considered by a future employer

Who can avoid learning how to "competently work with the Start Menu" in this world of pervasive Windows? My six year old daughter can just by watching me. What you're advocating is people who only know one way to do anything. Will learning how to play badminton mean you will be incompetent at tennis? Will learning the backstroke mean you will be handicapped at breaststroke? Will learning German mean you can't learn French.... etc ad absurdum.

The one and only "IT skill" that a school can teach that won't go out of date before they graduate is touch typing. If they need to learn a specific package for their jobs they can get the latest "MS Whatever for complete retards in 24 hours" and do it themselves.

Re:I for one, agree

[paulymer5]

I work with students at a University who have trouble using a machine because the My Computer icon has been moved from its usual location. I had to explain to someone how to type the capital letters in her password.

I realize this is not the majority, but it is a certain population, especially those from a background with little technological exposure (those who public education will theoretically benefit most). Computer classes, at least the basic ones I've been forced through in high school, do not teach true skills. They shuffle you through a few procedures, and that's about it.

I simply feel that the most pervasive environment, Windows, should thus be the one stressed. Do I agree that Windows is the superior choice? Not necessarily. It depends. But, for the time being, it is the most popular.

Re:I for one, agree

[fr0dicus]

I meant Linux, not computing. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Re:I for one, agree

[1u3hr]

I work with students at a University who have trouble using a machine because the My Computer icon has been moved from its usual location. I had to explain to someone how to type the capital letters in her password.

You've just demonstrated that some people ALREADY have problems with using Windows; yet paradoxically use this as an argument against even trying anything else. No interface is instinctive, users have to invest some time to use them effectively. At a university this should not be a burden. Presumably you're doing some support job. Surely the amount of work saved cleaning up viruses, zombies and such would be greater than that spent in explaining which icon to click on on a Linux desktop?

Re:I for one, agree

[paulymer5]

We are perfectly capable of securing Windows boxes. It's surprisingly not that difficult. We actually spend more time prepping the Linux boxes, but that may be because the ops team hasn't been deploying them as long.

My argument is that if people have such a hard time becoming effective at one system as it is, they might as well become effective at the pervasive system.

Re:I for one, agree

[Professor J Frink]

For users, running as 'root' makes no difference to the usability of the system. What drives me crazy as a unix user currently having to work on Windows for data entry (involving lots of data movement between windows) is the way the desktop works.

Simple customisation like how windows focus, whether to raise on focus or not, 'keep on top', multiple desktops to reduce clutter and etc are simply not available (except by maybe 3rd party apps which I wouldn't be allowed to add).

At home I set my computer to work how I want it to. At work I have to use it one way, and one way only; the MS Way. Which would be fine if it wasn't completely different to My Way. This is on W2K. XP may be different, but if it isn't, then it's still the biggest gripe I have about *using* Windows.

Re:I for one, agree

[ThosLives]

Your example does not really refute what I wrote. In your example, the programmer is compensated for his work so he's content to continue to do that work. How the employer chooses to distribute that work has no material bearing on the programmer in this case (it may, perhaps, have philosophical bearing). The employer must, somewhere, receive revenue with which to compensate the programmer; if it did not it could not compensate the programmer and, likely, the work would not be done.

The fact remains that, open source or not, work is only done by people who have appropriate compensation, either from performing the work in question or some other work that enables them to do the work in question.

Re:I for one, agree

[ILikeRed]

Sorry, but did you actually read what you wrote?

The question boils down to how the producers of "free" software make a living. If they have a low enough cost of living to spend their free time writing software to give away, then this is great.

My example says that programmers of free software are generally engineers and computer scientists that are paid a salary by a variety of companies to create software that is released as free(dom) software. Their employers make money by providing goods and services at a tangent to the software. It has nothing to do with government programs or free time.

Re:I for one, agree

[Charles W Griswold]

For users, running as 'root' makes no difference to the usability of the system.

I've seen people try to run in WinXP as a limited user (I've never been crazy enough to try it myself). Programs (including XP utilities downloaded directly from Microsoft) kept breaking because they tried to access folders that they couldn't. Basically, nothing works right on an XP system if you're not running with admininstrator privelages. This is a huge security risk, especially with the crap that's floating around on the internet just waiting to infect your computer.

I totally agree with you comments about the Windows interface. XP looks prettier, and has more bells, whistles, and gongs than previous versions of Windows, but the UI design philosophy hasn't changed that much. Working on an XP system feels incredibly cramped to me.

Re:I for one, agree

[fr0dicus]

This was my point that I so ineffectively put across. If this was my kids, I'd be disappointed in the budgeting of the school in question. For the 97% of users who won't care about the differences between Linux and Windows, why waste their time confusing them with a system that's different to what they have at home, and different to what they'll more than likely be using when they start their first job. I'm all for Linux gaining traction, but I disagree that it should be via some impractical budget cut. Linux should be aiming to beat Windows by ultra useability, not simply being the bargain option. The fact that Microsoft are very easily getting away with limiting piracy via product activation techniques suggests that this way simply isn't working. I hope Linux isn't destined to be the 'cheap' option.

How Schools Can Get Free Software

[Anonymous Coward]

Bit-Torrent?

Oooooh you mean the other kind of free.

Re:How Schools Can Get Free Software

[Stormwatch]

Stallman wants your geek license revoked.

um, rtfa?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about how the school uses OSS on servers and Windows on desktops:

"What appears on screen - the so-called desktop - for ordinary users is the familiar, paid-for Microsoft Windows.

The software used by staff and students includes the content management system Moodle, which is open source, and Microsoft's Word, Excel and Powerpoint."

The administrator claims over 30,000 pounds yearly are saved by using OSS servers. That seems a tad high for a single high school.

Re:um, rtfa?

[advocate_one]

he administers not only the high school, but a lot of the local primary schools as well...

Re:um, rtfa?

[iabervon]

The previous section, on being able to use old hardware, makes it sound like they're also doing Linux client machines in some classrooms. They probably have some classes where the computer use is exclusively a web browser that doesn't have to be IE, and others with Windows desktops. Including hardware costs, 30k pounds is plausible for a year in which they would have needed new hardware.

Re:um, rtfa?

[night-shade]

I work for the school and yes we do save that much money becuase we buy less kit, thin clients running on £30 machines (linux + citrix) and get more out of the servers we do have, and get more productive use out of our staff

- Actually I am Tim Fletcher as mentioned in the article

Re:um, rtfa?

[mikeb]

If you look at http://cutterproject.co.uk/Casestudies/orwell_cost _benefit.php
it shows exactly how a single high school saves 40,000 pounds a year (approximately), or $70,000. It's not rocket science; the biggest saving is in staff costs by not needing more technician support.

Interestingly, licence fees are only a moderate part of it.

Re:um, rtfa?

[night-shade]

Actually we support 7 other primary schools and a secondary special school

Some other interesting "F/OSS in schools" articles

[codergeek42]

http://edge-op.org/grouch/schools.html
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/schools.html

Re:huh?

[Parham]

It's "no shit" to you and me... how many /. users do you know that run our school systems? Microsoft is expensive, but they're the only one in the spotlight. Being naive sucks doesn't it?

My school uses Linux too!

[rivenage]

I've just left (about a week ago) my school after 7 years. Last year a new business studies block was built with two Linux suites in it. They both have about 30 thin clients in each, which run off of one server. They are using Suse (9.1 IIRC) after Fedora Core 2 kept struggling. All of the teachers were complaining that they didn't know how to use Linux, but of course now they've found it's just fine, because with KDE they can use it just the same way as windows. By using thin clients the school has saved a lot of money on hardware as well as software. The Linux machines are also a lot more stable than the Windows network, and everything is much more up to date (the windows network is still 98 with IE 5.0!). If anyone is interested its the Deepings School near Peterborough in the UK.

Re:My school uses Linux too!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm considering a similar setup. Do you know what the specs (esp. CPU/RAM) on the servers were?

Thanks

Re:My school uses Linux too!

[LDoggg_]

Take a look here
Gives a rough estimate on sizing of the server.

In my experience, anything at least pentium1 class works fine for a client.

Also, if you want to get up and running quickly, be sure to pull down the K12LTSP distro. Its basically the latest fedora with ltsp pre-configured and a bunch of educational software thrown in.

Re:My school uses Linux too!

[kminchau]

Well of course a recent release of Linux will always blow away a Windows 98 machine in terms of reliability. If you compared it against Windows XP (remember Windows 98 is over 7 years old!) you would see that XP is just as stable, and is a lot more easier to set up and maintain than Linux. Remember in the long run it is the administrative costs that will outweigh the hardware/software costs. And for that, Windows has a much lower administrative cost.

Re:My school uses Linux too!

[Lifewish]

Remember in the long run it is the administrative costs that will outweigh the hardware/software costs. And for that, Windows has a much lower administrative cost.

Actually, the BBC article specifically states that the school IT administrators now have enough time on their hands that they can help out in local primary schools as well (if I'm reading the article correctly). It's hard to see how that tallies with the higher administrative cost you mention.

Re:My school uses Linux too!

[natmsincome.com]

WindowsXP has a much lower administrative cost than Windows 98. I think everyone will agree with that. As for WindowsXP vs Linux it's got more to do with the setup and use than anything else.

If you lock both workstations down and have software deployment they are both about the same.

If you've got unlocked workstations that people can do anything with then I'd agree that Linux would cost more (It's less restrictive and gives the user more power).

The thing is these are Thin clients which has always been better than thick clients when you can use them (not useable for things like CAD, 3D games, slow networks, number crunching, etc) Clients cost ~ $500 instead of $2000 (I know you can get cheaper computers but humour me). They have no moving parts so they last about 10 years. They don't need to be upgraded because the work is done server side. With the money you've saved on the client you can afford to get server quality servers. Upgrading software is on a single computer (or on a small cluster of computers) and depending on the program can sometimes be done live.

If someone is running it the old code is already in memory stays there until they quite and then loads the new code. Doesn't work if they config files change or if it changes core libraries.

Windows has Terminal Services which provide a similar function.

Re:My school uses Linux too!

[RAMMS EIN]

``And for that, Windows has a much lower administrative cost.''

I don't know where you get that from. With Linux, not only updates, but also upgrades can be free (just choose the right distro). Also, in my experience, Linux machines require a lot less maintenance. No virus definitions to update, no bazillion different places to get updates for every application, just a single command can do the trick, and you can run that from a cron job.

You can even have all the software on the server with Linux (clients boot over the network and run NFS root), so there's only a single installation to keep up to date. AFAIK, you can't do that with Windows, but I might be wrong there.

I don't see how all this translates to a lower administrative cost for Windows. Did I mention that Windows tends to be heavier on hardware, too?

Re:My school uses Linux too!

[Alioth]

Windows does NOT have a lower administrative cost if you're looking to hire COMPETENT administrators (i.e. not reboot monkeys - people who will diagnose problems and actually make the whole network run smoother). On a large network, Windows is every bit as complex and as hard as Linux, GUI tools notwithstanding.

Case in point: our org has made a huge shift from a (very out of date) Novell network to AD and all of MS's other good stuff. The new network performs much worse than the old one, is much more expensive to run due to bandwidth requirements and is less reliable (mostly due to the dunderheaded decision to centralise everything, rather than anything MS has done). A full Windows server system is very complex, and to operate securely and competently needs administrators every bit as expert as their Linux counterparts and every bit as expensive to hire.
We currently have a drove of Microsoft consultants here trying to fix our problems, and they aren't making much headway...and these are Microsoft people.

Cheap software for schools AND students?

[freeplatypus]

Hmm, Microsoft IT Academy comes to my mind.

Money saved, but only to be wasted elsewhere

[mc6809e]

No one ever got elected by saving money. This saved money will only be spent elsewhere.

That said, the best reason for using open source has nothing to do with saving money.

It's the opportunity to get a look inside at how the machine works.

Anyone that's taken apart a toaster or washing machine timer, etc, understands how valuable a thing it is to be able to see how it works.

That's why open source belongs in schools.

Re:Money saved, but only to be wasted elsewhere

[dewie]

This saved money will only be spent elsewhere.

Um, yes. Yes it will. Is that a bad thing? Why save it otherwise?

Re:Money saved, but only to be wasted elsewhere

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree about the toaster angle. But I take issue with your idea that saving money on technology is a bad thing because it will inevitably be spent somewhere else. Sure, passing the savings back to taxpayers is a worthy thing, but so is using the money to hire an extra teacher and thereby reduce class sizes, or offer special electives. The savings from using FLOSS does add value, even if the total expenditure remains constant.

Re:Money saved, but only to be wasted elsewhere

[Anonymous Coward]

No one ever got elected by saving money. This saved money will only be spent elsewhere.

I voted for a person who promised to run Linux and other open source to schools etc. Well, yes, the person didn't get elected.

I would rather see a school to spend money to hire more or better teachers than spending it buying things that you could get for free. It's usually good for local economy also, since more people would get work. Buying Microsoft products mostly just helps rich people getting more rich.

Re:Money saved, but only to be wasted elsewhere

[Charles W Griswold]

No one ever got elected by saving money. This saved money will only be spent elsewhere.

Sure, like paying teachers, or buying and maintaining equipment, or buying supplies, or renovating old buildings.

Re:Money saved, but only to be wasted elsewhere

[x_codingmonkey_x]

No one ever got elected by saving money. This saved money will only be spent elsewhere.

I just wanted to expand on that by saying that governments are quite inefficient (as everyone already knows). The thing is each department has a budget and in order to insure that next year that department will a similar amount each department spends just a little more than they were given. Even though that money _could_ be used elsewhere and for better causes these people end up blowing the money off on upgrades and software which they don't need.

I work at a hospital in Toronto, Canada and even though they keep complaining that money is an issue we are planning on upgrading to Windows XP Pro (from Windows 2000) and Office 2003 (from Office XP). There was a previous article up on /. about how most businesses have not upgraded from 2000 and lots of good discussion about how there really is no need. However, these "strapped for cash" hospitals decide that they need to upgrade all of their machines (even though we just recently finished upgrading to 2000). The sad thing is that they didn't _even_ consider any alternatives (Linux, OS X, OpenOffice). We are finally making some strides by using Plone for our Intranet and BEE for our Business Intelligence Management software, both of which are Open Source, but the fact still stands that they blow money off like crazy.

So what's my point? Well nothing really, just wanted to take some frustration out about how inefficient government is.

Re:Money saved, but only to be wasted elsewhere

[westyx]

saving money in one budget means !!extra jobs!!, which is very political.

Re:Money saved, but only to be wasted elsewhere

[Tweak232]

No one ever got elected by saving money. This saved money will only be spent elsewhere.

What about books? Higher teacher salaries?

Of course this is not all about saving money, it is about allocating it. Money could go to far better places than microsoft's and other large companie's deep pockets.

Your point is still valid, just modified.

Re:Money saved, but only to be wasted elsewhere

[drsquare]

Because then taxes don't need to be as high. Or are you fine with the concept of having a portion of your wages forcibly seized by the government in order to put it straight in Bill Gates' pocket?

In other news...

[Krankheit]

How to Obtain Free Oxygen...Story at eleven Seriously, isn't this obvious by now? Obtaining free software by using free software (as in beer and speech) is not unknown. Nowadays any school system administrator or teacher marginally computer illiterate is at least partial aware of opensource software like Firefox being free as in beer (they don't understand what free as in speech means, and won't listen when I try to explain.)

Re:In other news...

[Krankheit]

s/illiterate/literate, typographical error. My condolences for the confusion.

Re:In other news...

[MoonFog]

Nowadays any school system administrator or teacher marginally computer illiterate is at least partial aware of opensource software like Firefox being free as in beer (they don't understand what free as in speech means, and won't listen when I try to explain.

But that's most likely because they don't need it. For most people, open source means that they get it for free, they couldn't care less about having access to the source code. Even most admins I know do not really know or care about programming anyway, so having access to the source code isn't an issue at all.

Re:In other news...

[pete6677]

I agree, this story is definitely not news, but tech writers must have something to write about, and Slashdot almost went a day without a Linux cheerleading story, so drivel like this makes it on the front page.

The switch isn't that bad

[Nf1nk]

This is the third time I have tried to switch to linux, The first two times went badly and I gave up
(if you care Redhat in 2001, and Suse in 2003).
I have tried Ubuntu and the installation went smooth, the applications work easy, and haven't even seen the comand line once.
Everything works, that wasn't true before, The installation was easier than the last windows install I did, and for a school enviroment being somewhat incompatable with most games (and Viruses) seems like a huge plus.
I think It's ready and everything works just the way I am used to, (except that the status bar is at the top wierd how much that bugs me).
The kids shouldn't have any problems doing what they are supposed to with the computers.

Re:The switch isn't that bad

[Markus_UW]

Your sig, is that Blow up Sun Microsystems? or the actual Sun?

Re:The switch isn't that bad

[Nf1nk]

Both, or perhaps niether

Re:The switch isn't that bad

[ryanmetcalf]

Heard of Cedega?
It's a windows emulator for linux, based off of WINE, Cedega has been specialy adapted for gaming, up to date to work with even with Half-Life 2
I being a High School student have heard of it and promise you that Linux in NO WAY would be the limiting factor on games.

Re:The switch isn't that bad

[Anonymous Coward]

except that the status bar is at the top wierd how much that bugs me).

Why don't you just grab it and drag it to the bottom? :)

You can also drag individual components around and get rid of application taskbar.

Re:The switch isn't that bad

[idonthack]

But if they use a thin client from a server, high-end games or even games a few years old will really suck. They also can't install it if they don't have root access.
---
I started with nothing and I still have most of it left.
Generated by SlashdotRndSig via GreaseMonkey

Re:The switch isn't that bad

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. I bought a new pc and slapped a Mandrake 10.0 install disk in and was off and running within an hour. Pretty much everything worked right off the bat, even the graphical configuration tools. When I upgraded to 10.1 I found the few things I still struggled with working much easier. There is a learning curve involved but if we're talking about a school, well, isn't that the idea? Teachers that don't have an ego problem will find that solving problems with students is a lot more exciting for both the teachers and the students than simply telling them what to do. Unless you consider computer training to simply mean telling students to click icons to open up this or that program, switching to open source will open up many new areas of computing to inquisitive students.

Money

[101percent]

Saving money should be the second most important incentive. Free software brings social good as we all know. However once students can learn programming and actually study the code of large programs we will see better education around computer science, specifically programming. Freedom in sofware promotes intellectual growth, clearly.

Re:MS For Schools Is Cheap

[nietsch]

As you may gave read in the article, they are not switching all desktops to OSS (but they should too IMBO)I think the cost savings came from using moodle over a commercial learning system.

Re:MS For Schools Is Cheap

[djward]

Because feeding trolls is fun:

1. As opposed to $0 a workstation. Times a bunch of workstations.

2. Yeah, 'cause MS's current OS is just what these kids will be using when they enter the workforse in 10-15 years. Right. Crap argument. Teaching them to USE and UNDERSTAND COMPUTERS is far more important than teaching them about one particular OS that will have changed significantly by time they are entering the real world, supposing it's still dominant. This can be done just as effectively (perhaps moreso) on another OS besides Windows.

3. -1 Offtopic.

This sends a confusing message.

[Real World Stuff]

This only reinforces the indestinction most have of "free" and "Free". Recently Forbes was lambasted for blurring the lines between the philosophy an fiscal realities of F/OSS. Free does not mean no cost. Ideas not money.

Open Source not ready for schools

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried convincing a principal that he should move his school to open source software. His reply was, "My job is to prepare students for the real world. Why would I want to teach my students software which they will not be using in the business world?". He also stated that there are plenty of teaching materals which his school has already puchased to help teach the kids how to use the software they already have installed.

Once companies start switch to open source software the schools will follow.

food!

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they could put the savings towards better lunch time food?

Dear Children

[Deliveranc3]

We have been informed that you can't install drivers, play games, get your sound to work, or really use your computer at all, additionally your complaints about the difficulties of the first graders to use the command line is very powerful...

Powerfully boring, Linux is for techies you little shits if you want it changed do it yourself.
-The Linux Community

Re:Dear Children

[JTorres176]

Children learn what they're taught. This would be why there's such a huge push in MS to resist change. Windows XP works very similar to Windows 95 for this very reason. If we teach children OSS, they learn OSS. If we teach them windows, they learn windows. Your comment that "Linux is for techies" is like saying "We can't teach children english because japanese is easier!" By the way, I'm writing this while listening to the BBC news broadcast on a linux laptop. My sound to works just fine.

Re:Dear Children

[ettlz]

Dear sch00l sys4dm1n d00dz...

thnx 4 installing teh linux on the computaz! we iz LUVVIN it!!!

just the otha day i woz finkin how totally 1337 it wud b 4 the skool 2 move 2 3 software. like cutin costs n shit! i sed to our Mynds, propriatary solushuns was not da way fowward, and that impartiality and freedum from corprut influnce in da edukashun system cood only be inshured throo open sours. yeh, that's wot gary the geek said anyway.

yeh. and mynds wuz just sayin how good it woz to write up her gcse pole dansin coursework wiv LaTeX and not dat mingin Word shit!!! i fink she fancys gary coz he knows ALL DA TRIX! she said to me that she wood backslash his curly braces any time of da munf.

i finks its GREAT that my kids gonna grow up in a world were software is free and it don't affect your benefits, and maybe they cood do the same 4 nappys coz my weekend job at teh off-licens^Hc^H^W booz r us pays shit and vodafone keep aksin me 2 pay 200 quid for those 4000 txts i sent. 2 ton? get out of heer!

ur teh shit!!!!!
sara xxxxx

ps. sorry bout my speling and grammer and punctual^H^Hati^H^H^H^H^Hhuashun, teh inglish teeching is crap

Re:Dear Children

[cranos]

Am I the only one who read in that and immediately thought of Ali G?

Re:Dear Children

[Builder]

I just wet myself laughing.

Iz you from da east of town ?

Argh, they'll be scared of the gnome foot.

[Masa1991]

Due to the legal requirements, I attend school Linux on school computers? The n00bs at my school have trouble using the Windows 2000 logon screen. God help us: "Sir, sir! It says kernal error! the school is being attacked by the army!" - and that's 13-year-old kids. They can't even handle mail merging without making a complete f__k-up of it. I often find myself helping other people in my "gifted and accelerated" class. But I must admit I did spot Ubuntu running on an old pc in the IT office...

Re:Argh, they'll be scared of the gnome foot.

[ettlz]

I remember once many years ago I was a member of a "guerilla" Linux installation group of about three people, which was offically sanctioned, and given a kind of "research" carte-blanche. The rest of the systems ran on NetWare using IP/IPX tunnel; occasionally, we'd run X servers on these boxes and deploy our favourite applications to the Windows-based teaching rooms, and it used to amuse us when the paid admins asked why we just pumped 40 Mb through their server in one go.

Then one day we decided to flood ping a machine on the other side of the campus, knowing that at that time there was only one 10 megabit fibre connection between the two buildings. We let it go for about 30 seconds, after which we weren't willing to gamble that the sysadmins would spot something was amiss and come running to us to get us to sort the problem.

Re:MS For Schools Is Cheap

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly why was that modded down to "troll"? And how is that offtopic? The topic is precisely about the cost savings of Linux and the parent was trying to show that there may not be that much cost savings after all.

While your points are valid, I think the fact that you modded the parent down is assinine.

Slashdotters are jackasses.

Do you ever get the feeling that...

[Kjella]

...slashdot's +1, Funny maps disturbingly well to RIAAs +1, Insightful? I'm sure what their real market model is to have others pay them through their teens and student life (parents, university) and have them come out on the other side thinking "well, now I have to start paying for it myself". They don't want to lose customers in their youth, never to regain them. Make them feel that someone has been, or should have been paying all the time, even if they have not.

Kjella

I used to go to this school...

[JimmehAH]

and they've had this for a while (from at least 2000).
All the computers there are old business ones that are now running Red Hat (they even got a little plaque from RH to put up in the lobby) with Citrix connected to Windows NT Terminal Server on top of that.

I used to help out the head IT guy (Tim) at lunch (my nerdishness was secure even back then) by installing RH over the network for the new computers, fixing the mouse if it ever stopped working (by reinstalling the drivers usually) or just copying down the serial numbers of the computer equipment in to the online database they had.

K12LTSP

[MeBadMagic]

I hope they know about this...

K12LTSP.org

B-)

Re:huh?

[countach44]

I do IT work at a school, we run microsoft stuff, with some linux backends. It's hard to teach teachers new systems...

Re:MS For Schools Is Cheap

[AuMatar]

Yes, because we all know paying teachers, who already have starting areas as low as $20K/yr in places in the US , even less money is a great way to improve teacher quality. Thats an especially good deal considering the US is already falling behind in schooling.

SOmetimes you get what you pay for. The place to cut money in schools is not in the teachers. Look further up the chain at the school boards. For a big city its as highly paid as a CEO, despite being even less useful. Cut there, and higher more/better teachers.

Funnily enough......

[mormop]

Schools in the UK are currently being offered the chance to bid on a £15000 software handout from Microsoft. Our school applied but lost and the suspicion is that it's because our school doesn't hold ICT "centre of excellence" status.

From what I can make out, MS are targetting ICT specialist schools because they are the ones who would most likely benefit from the open source code and free development tools that OSS provides. Obviously, the temptation at such schools would be to develop code that would be beneficial to a school environment and education being what it is, it's likely that such software would be freely propagated to other schools allowing less specialised schools an ample supply of free software and an easier switch to OSS.

From what I understand, price cutting designed to exclude a competitor from a marketplace is deemed predatory pricing when practised by a monopoly company and is is in contravention to trade rules.

I'd be interested in seeing posts from anyone else who has applied for an MS grant. If you did, did you get it and if so are you a specialist ICT centre?

Re:Funnily enough......

[mormop]

"From what I can make out, MS are targetting ICT specialist schools"

Ooops, should have read:

From what I can make out, the suspicion is MS are.... etc....

Although any anecdotal evidence would help show if this suspicion is correct.

Duh!

[MightyMartian]

Steal it like everyone else. If the administrators have any problems, just as the students, who are likely, by the age of ten, already experienced pirates.

Re:Duh!

[Anonymous Coward]

children aren't allowed cutlasses, will forget to feed the parrot, can't yell a decent "YARRRRR!" and cant hold their rum. 10 yr olds make lousy pirates. piracy is a big problem, but our navy is addressing this problem.

Help me build my list..

[MattPF]

Anyone have ideas to add to this online OSS list: Free Software vs Commercial Software -Matt

Re:Help me build my list..

[big ben bullet]

your list needs work!

first of all : it's too SHORT

secondly: it contains ERRORS (the gimp is no equivalent for photoshop; it might be an alternative in most home user cases but it's not the same)

and finally: you suggest a linux distro in stead of win xp (which is good) and you suggest zone-alarm basic in stead of mcafee's firewall (wich is debatable, but that's another discussion)...
how do you suggest running zone-alarm on linux? you should at least specify the target os(es) for each application

Don't get me wrong. I like the initiative... but it's not like nobody has though of such a list before. If you want to do it, make it the best list ever or forget the whole thing. (a wiki would be nice too - so people can contribute easily)

Re:Help me build my list..

[MattPF]

Yes it's too short, so give me some additions! I compared The GIMP to Adobe Photoshop "Elements." Elements is a scaled down version. I don't know of any firewalls similar to Zone Alarm that would work on a linux desktop -- nor have I heard of the need for such a product. Thanks for the input.

Re:Help me build my list..

[Dogers]

Linux comes with iptables/ipfilter. It's command line, but if you want a nice GUI for it, theres things like http://www.fwbuilder.org/ - not for the faint hearted, but then most Linux setup routines will install a decent set already.

NOrway

[fa2k]

We didn't use Linux, but the school standardized on OpenOffice. Sure, my fellow students bitched about it all the time, people just thought the school was cheap, and that was probably the case. I thought it was cool. Here (in norwegian) free!=free, and we use the "as in freedom" word for the software, still people don't get the whole ideology thing that foss is about.

OSS in school mentality

[Protocron]

I don't know about other schools in the US, but my daughter's school, doesn't appear to have much appreciation for OSS. I don't want to name names, but it's a public school in North San Diego County.
Anyway, they sent out a newsletter which said something to the effect of "Summer is here and your kids need to learn how to type." It went it to how the future is here, blah, blah, blah...Interweb...computers and kids. It said that we should buy our kids one of those great typing tutor programs. And it had MS crapware and a few others. All paid for software. Not even freeware.
Now I know most of the people on my block, and the parents of my kids friends. None of us has the money (read we live in San Diego County) to buy software for our kids. That was all the list included. Nothing about Tux Typing or .. Well I can't think of anything except TT at this moment. And this was from the Computer teacher.
I sent an email, but the response was not what I expected. Basically very sweet and nice, but not really "Hey your absolutely Right!!!"

How Schools Can Get Free Software

[KillerBob]

Couldn't they get free software just by downloading it?

Convincing management to let you download/install it is another ball game entirely, but they can get it just by downloading it.

Where is the school?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hopefully, it's not in London near Russell Square Station.

* ducks *

Re:Where is the school?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ho Ho Ho

To AC,

[Neoncow]

Please don't ever teach your children the meaning of sarcasm. ;)

You can predict the FUTURE?!?!

[idonthack]

So... you're saying you can predict what software will be used 15 years from now, when the first-graders enter the business world? Assuming they don't skip a grade, and go through 2 years of college, plus 1 extra year for whatever.


Dude, you're retarded. Even if everybody still uses Microsoft stuff, it will be radically different from what we use today. What is most likely to happen is that we will use more F/OSS software, and if we teach them on F/OSS, they will have the skills to adapt to whatever comes next.
---
(\_/)
(O.o) This is Bunny. Please help him
(> <) spread and take over the world.
Generated by SlashdotRndSig via GreaseMonkey

Re:You can predict the FUTURE?!?!

[sc0ob5]

Brand recognition. The reason why Microsoft sell their software cheap to schools is because these kids that use the software now, grow up knowing they can trust their products and that they are the industry standard, and even riducule software not made by Microsoft. Even if the programs they develop are totally different by the time the kids actually enter the work place, they know Microsoft is a respectable software development firm and that they can trust their products and Microsoft the company.

Re:You can predict the FUTURE?!?!

[idonthack]

Uh oh.
Someone used the words "respect", "trust", "products", and "Microsoft" in the same sentence.
I think what happens next is the end of the world.

Won't work in most situations

[Anonymous Coward]

Has anyone given any thought to the kind of software that schools use? Obviously not, aside from the classic Accelerated Reader and other games and instructional tools that schools use, they are (in some states) required by law to run certain applications on a wide variety of machines. Has anyone heard of STI (http://www.sti-k12.com? Once again, I'd bet not because most of the people replying have probably not had any dealings with K12 education since their early years. This software is required to run at each school and within that school all teachers need to use this software to do things like attendance and much more. While the software is complete crap and a major rip off, it is required. I know there are ways around this by using things like VNC or Remote Desktop to run only those applications but let me tell you how crappy most school networks are. Do you think they have real network engineers designing their networks or do you think it's a crappily thrown together mix of 10 year old Nortel Baystack 10mb/sec switches, and 8/16/24 port Netgear switches. In the event that some school can afford high end equipment (such as really poor schools who get federal grants) then they still have noone to actually design the network or setup the high-end Cisco switches. In short, the entire network in most schools completely sucks.

Linux may be on par with Windows in terms of usability (I personally don't think so but that's not the point here) but it just isn't feasible until the applications used by schools is ported over. Even labs such as libraries we have software that is needed to do searching and circulation and more. It's just not as simple as Microsoft Office, Email, and Internet. Those who think it is are obviously blind.

Anyway, some of you might want to know how I know this... well I work for a county school system with 27 schools in the system. I've considered it but I know, within 15 minutes of thinking about it, there is noway we could do it. Not even halfway.

Re:MS For Schools Is Cheap

[idonthack]

Sir, I think you pwned him.
---
The only thing I hate more than a hypocrite is a person who hates hypocrites.
Generated by SlashdotRndSig via GreaseMonkey

Free educational resources

[gilesjuk]

With the Internet being a rich resource of information about maths, geography etc (but not always a very accurate one) how long before text books are replaced with print outs from websites?

Computers have been shown to actaully reduce the performance of children. I guess there's nothing to compete with the teacher and child relationship. A computer after all can't adapt to the needs or explain something in an alternate way.

Take the time to teach software freedom to kids.

[jbn-o]

With regard to the popularity of certain software, you're positing a circular argument. You're talking about the status quo as if it has always existed and should ever be thus. Nobody need challenge the proprietor's popularity because they have arrived. I see things differently; the more we use free software the more popular we help make it. When we don't cave in to pressure to give a proprietor more control. But we should not do this for mere popularity. We should do this to build a better community.

It is important to teach people why we are choosing free software. It's not progress to treat, say, OpenOffice.org as a viable alternative to Microsoft Office merely because OO.o isn't written or distributed by Microsoft, because then every non-free Microsoft Office alternative becomes equally interesting. OpenOffice.org is compelling because it respects our freedom to share and modify which will help teach kids how to build and maintain a community of sharing. Software freedom also gives us more control over our computers and doesn't push us into a monopoly for support. Thus, this is not about cost: even if free software costs more money for the taxpayers, it's a better bargain overall. If the goal is to save taxpayers money, any proprietor interested in popularity will give away licensed copies of their software. Cost is a very narrow issue and we should work to frame better debates that don't give proprietors ground.

opensource software and cost savings

[chrisranjana.com]

Yes savings and stability must be the buzzwords for the opensource development.

The biggest danger in bringing FOSS to schools

[hadaso]

There is a greater danger in students using free software than them getting the crazy idea of that information should be accesible to everyone ... some of them might even get involved in development. Imagine all these fresh minds that M$ cannot even hire because of age limitations on employment...

Younger minds can have novell ideas. FOSS needs them. School kids getting involved can bring new ideas. Perhaps even non-geek participation in designing GUIs.

I like to call it "the coolness factor" in OSS. If kids learn that they can actually make a difference: having your idea or design incorporated in software used by millions all around the world is cool, and kids should learn about it and go for it!

Re:The biggest danger in bringing FOSS to schools

[sconeu]

Younger minds can have novell ideas.

And Novell is into Linux, which we all know is a communist plot to destroy Patriotic Red-blooded American Companies(tm) like Microsoft!

This menace MUST be stopped!!!!

Edubuntu

[mberry]

We've been using Linux on our server(s) for five years now, and it's been an entirely positive experience. It just works - perhaps a couple of days of down time since September 2000, and they were over the weekend when we upgraded the OS.

We've also been able to do far more in-house than we'd have been able to with MS stuff, I have a strong sense of ownership, and of kinda understanding how everything fits together. This last year we've been exploring web-based technology, such as the incredibly brilliant Moodle virtual learning environment.

Anyhow, we're now interested in the notion of Linux on the desktop, and I too have been impressed by how easy ubuntu is to set up and use. Spent the weekend at the edubuntu summit, chatting about the idea of a ubuntu based, easy to install and use, distribution aimed at schools, including those in developing countries where internet access isn't all it could be. This is a tremendously exciting project, and given how easy the unbuntu experience is, could well be the way to get linux onto school desktops. The first release is due in October.

It's not even news anymore ;-)

[cheros]

Do a Google on "Cutter" and "Orwell school" - they've been smart because for some apps you need Windows - all the rest is done via Terminal Servers (note to OpenOffice: why is your memory footprint so much larger than StarOffice?).

The Ubuntu lot have a link into the SchoolTool efforts of Mark Shuttleworth, and anyone who's followed the FLOSS in Government trails will know about the fantastic work that has taken place in the Extramadura region in Spain. Link to all the presentations.

There is far, far more happening out there than the UK Government seems to know - I wonder when they finally try and spend some money efficiently and emulate what the Spanish did. Could be a new concept: actual *efficient* use of tax money...

But Moodle is really a Course

[MichaelPenne]

Management System, oka LMS (Learning management system).

It does get pretty confusing. A CMS is usually a content management system outside of education. But withing .edu CMS now often means "common management system", which is generally an ERP hacked into something that could be sold to .edu (e.g. PS, not to be confused with a POS...well, ok, maybe 'not' is too generous).

So now CMSs (course MS), are often called LMSs (learning MS), though this is a bit confusing as LMSs were supposed to deliver learning content to students as needed. So these are now often called LCMSs (Learning Content Management Systems).

So the CMS in the article is really the sort of CMS that is now often called an LMS, thought it isn't really an LMS, as that would mean it was an LCMS.

Is that accessible enough?

Anyway, having used Moodle for several years now, it is a very good option for schools, just about equivalent with Blackboard or WebCT for a much better price:-).

On the other hand, if you install the optional netpubish module, Moodle actually can work pretty well as a CMS (C=Content).

O and guess what Moodle stands for... (hint D=dynamic). So Moodle is a SLA, which is obviously 2x better than a mere TLA. Note also what happens if you multiply TLAx2 by (LCMS + CMS).

HTH, HAND!

I wonder

[everett]

How long until windows is seen as an "Alternative" operating system if linux keeps gaining market share on the desktop...

Because Geldof is two-faced

[Anonymous Coward]

Why isn't Geldoff taking up this cause!

Because the last thing that Geldof will ever do is any kind of action that would eat into his recording profits. Heck, he won't even fairly distribute earnings from his music to the members of his old band, the issue's gone to court.

Here's a little question that might make you open your eyes to "Saint Bob": why hasn't he ever suggested that the third world be given massive discounts by the record industry on music purchases, or heaven forbid, music for free?

Like the vast majority of musicians (the number of exceptions is tiny), he believes in bleeding music listeners dry, and not just in the afluent world.

I know that your line about Geldof was intended as a joke, but sadly there's a dark side to it that few people think about.

My old school did

[cheesemp]

I left 6 years ago. My brothers just left - They got a Microsoft grant for a tablet PC lab. I only saw it once - A room filled with tablet PC's on stands!! with keyboards and mice. Effectively really expensive LCD monitors! What a waste of cash! Of course all persective students parents where shown it to encourge them to come to the school. For anyone interested its - Cornwallis School, Kent, UK

Re:MS For Schools Is Cheap

[Anonymous Coward]

think the fact that you modded the parent down is assinine.

Moron. He called the earlier post a troll, he did not mod it troll. In fact it is impossible on Slashdot to both reply to a post and to mod it. If you reply first then you lose the option to mod it. If you mod it first then any reply will erase the mod.

Re:MS For Schools Is Cheap

[Alsee]

the US is already falling behind in schooling.

Well this is a story about UK schools. So were you trying to say that the UK is pulling ahead? Grin.

-

your sig

[SgtChaireBourne]

I don't care, I'm still free, You can't take the sky from me.

Yes they can and they have. Light pollution can blot out all but the moon and occasionally Venus. At the minimum, light intended for use on the ground, but used to blot out the stars is waste of money and resources.

You can, however, take it back. See the International Dark Sky Association for more options.

Where this article came from

[Anonymous Coward]

If anyone's interested, this article was accepted after a complaint from the UKUUG's MediaWatch blog about the bias in a previous article. If you see any articles on news sites that you think are biased or ill-informed, let them know, or simply complain yourselves, and you might get to see your name in print.