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(The latter aren't awful, and I don't mean to disparage the people working on this, but it's nothing like just having yum or apt-get already there and just waiting to install thousands of excellent free packages.)
No, having to run one of two double click installers, and then having ports or apt-get ready there and just waiting to install thousands of excellent free packages is nothing like that.

You give up far too easily.

Check out this

and this

far far easier to just use a package manager on the OEM installed OS rather than installing a whole new OS just for package management. Esp. since you could have virtualized your linux install, with no detriment to performance. Don't get me wrong... I like linux too... but what you did was obliterate a perfectly good installation for no good reason just because you weren't accustomed to it.

Wow, go-go-gadget misinformation. Mac OS X Server is BSD based, and I've had great success installing any open source project that I needed, using ports, fink, gems, or CPAN if what came with operating system didn't do what I needed.

Also, the vast majority of services available on OS X Server are open source, which Apple does contribute back. So if you don't like how the Server Admin tool works, you can be a r3@l l33t h4xx0r and edit the config files in vi or emacs and do it yourself.

As for the submitter's original question, there are a number of useful tools available for mass deployments of Macs across a network. Tools like radmind, LanRev, Apple's PackageMaker, InstaDMG, and Casper Suite all have varying degrees of management of machine images, image distribution, etc. Also consider at least downloading the PDFs Apple provides for their built in services to learn the ins and outs of their tools allow you to do and not do. You can even modify existing services to use more recent versions of projects that come with OS X if you're missing something or need to upgrade to a newer version for some reason (although this will likely make you have to freeze your OS version in place, or else future updates will probably overwrite your changes.)

Administration of a network of Macs falls somewhere in between an Active Directory environment and a roll your own Linux/BSD network. The client administration is great, but not as comprehensive as Active Directory. However, you still have the freedom to tinker with the services that come with OS X Server and borrow and add capabilities from open source. There are also many other forums out there that have a much lower troll count than what you'll find here, with many knowledgeable and helpful folks who will actually attempt to address and answer your question.

Because seriously, why go to Slashdot if not for the trolling?

Like which software? 99% of Linux software runs happily on OS X.

I tried to install and use CinePaint and Fink. I was unable to use either one. Sure some get them to work but I'm no genus or hacker. With Ubuntu Studio CinePaint comes with it and I don't need Fink. Or DarwinPorts or MacPorts to install apt-get, .deb, or .rpm packages. I also have Eclipse installed but I get errors when I run it in my user account, then when I try to quit it it won't. Even Force Quit will not stop Eclipse, the only I can kill it is by shutting down though logging out may work, I haven't tried it. Yet I installed the Mac version of it, and it works fine in an admin account but not a user account.

Falcon

of OS X:

X11
kde
e17
For everything else there's fink and darwin ports.

I've got X11 installed and tried to install CinePaint and Fink but couldn't get either one to run. I could try MacPorts but it doesn't have CinePaint. So I've been thinking of installing Ubuntu Studio.

Falcon

Actually, there's another one for those that prefer ports.

What's wrong with MacPorts?

Steam games

Okay, games are a weakness for Macs though there are a lot that run on them. What I find ironic is that I run into people who think Macs are only good for games.

Decent Amateur radio software and no, the software listed on http://www.machamradio.com/ is not good enough.

What about the DXZone? Things may of changed since then but years ago I knew hams who swore by Macs. I wanted to get my license myself but I had a hard tyme with Morse Code.

x11 that supports drag and drop properly, so I can use x11 applications as they should be used.

I've tried two X11 apps, CinePaint and Fink or MacPorts but I couldn't get either one to work. I may install Ubuntu on my Mac, in which case I can run CinePaint in it and use Synaptic as well as other methods to install software.

Have you checked out CNR, ClickNRun?

Stuff like fink, macports which isn't hopelessly broken

Did you try both at the same tyme? I read where you should use one OR the other as they don't play well together.

Falcon

You could help fix that problem by participating with projects such as Fink , MacPorts or OSXPM.

What I meant was that there are no Apple-supplied package managers. Fink is a good add-on, but for some folks it's just got too much stuff in it. There's a good discussion here . While we're on that subject, there's also MacPorts.

Or MacPorts, formerly DarwinPorts: http://macports.org/

It would be nice if desktop OSes had an easy way to find and install new programs as well. Oh wait ... BSD and Linux do have such a place! How has Apple not jumped on that?

You do have MacOSX repositories as well - macports and fink. They are not integrated into the OS in any way though.

While I agree with you that this is a nuisance, what's wrong with 3rd party software? As a OS X developer I don't feel my work is inherently inferior to Apple's. There are many examples where 3rd party software is way superior to Apple's own equivalent, e.g. The Finder.

What replaces the Finder that's better than it is? Having asked that, I prefer Windows Explorer, about the only thing I prefer Windows over OSX about. On another hand, I want to learn how to use Fink and Macports.

Falcon

I agree with everything you wrote. Good advice and a realistic perspective. Macs remote reimaging form open firmware, you could have a website + instructions and just give the kids the URL.

2.) If your goal is teaching computer science, Macs (and to a slightly lesser degree, Windows PCs) are NOT the way to go. Both MS and Apple hide the workings of a computer from the user to a degree that makes it almost useless for this purpose. Kids( and teachers for that matter) will not learn how computers work through osmosis. Of course it is fairly unrealistic to expect US public/private schools to put linux in the classroom but one can dream.

OSX architecture may hide things, as you say. Darwin on the other hand is a BSD. Pretty much everything you wanted to do with Linux in a curriculum you can do with the Mac macports. Don't get me wrong, I think kids would learn way more from say at 10th grade having to reimage to a Linux from scratch and work it up to the point it runs Open Office but I can't see most HS computer level teachers being able to teach that.
Really any modern OS, Linux included sucks for understanding computers, they are just too complicated. A virtual OS built on top of a Lisp is much better. Getting the stupid thing to be able to do eval((3+4) * 6) will take some deep understanding.

FYI - X11 is included in OS X as a rootless X server. There are plenty of apps available (compiled from source no less) using the Mac Ports collection (similar to BSD ports). I use Mac Ports on my Mac and it's great for grabbing an application I need from the rest of the *nix world that hasn't been re-worked as a native Mac OS app.

Wrong, kid. http://www.macports.org/ports.php

I will try it out soon, triple booting Ubuntu XP and OSX sounds great fun!

I can, though I won't, do that on my Mac.

Apple should implement apt-get, then it would be definite!

If you have a Mac try Fink, it can install Debian packages apt-get, .deb, dpkg, and dselect. To install Redhat .rpm packages try MacPorts.

Falcon

Now if only they would release something like that for Linux, then it would be the year of Linux on the desktop!

Apple used to have a version of Linux, MkLinux. Since the switch to OS X I don't see much of a reason to run Linux on a Mac. I'm typing this on a MacBook Pro and before I got it I was thinking about setting it up as a dualboot, with Ubuntu. However after installing MacPorts and Fink I see no reason to. Between the two I can install Debian apt-get and .deb and Redhat .rpm packages.

As far as a "Year of Linux", I doubt there ever will be one. Yes, Linux will be seen on more and more desktops but I don't think there will be a single year that can be pointed to and have said that was the year Linux became the king of the desktop. What matters is that people can do what they need to do, whatever the OS or platform.

Falcon

So you replaced one proprietary system with vendor lock-in with another?

I'm not locked into anything. If I want to I can install Ubuntu, which I was planning on at first, or another Linux distro. I'm typing this in a Firefox tab. My office suite is NeoOffice, the original native Mac port of Open Office. I also have other open source programs installed. Because I installed Fink and MacPorts I can install a lot of software for Linux. I can install Debian packages using .deb or apt-get as well as packages using Redhat's .rpm. And if I need to, though I haven't yet, I can get and install Cross Over for Macs so I can run Windows software.

Fact is is a Mac can run more software than any other OS/hardware combination. And don't try to say Macs are more expensive either. Macs have not been more expensive than Windows PCs in years. Actually before I got mine, I compared it's price to prices of Windows laptops that had similar configurations. Most OEM PC were about the same price, though some cost more. Dell's was about $200 more.

Hardware wise my laptop isn't any more vender lockin than a Windows laptop either. I'm still using the same router I got for my Windows PC, then used with my Linux PC, and am now using with my Mac. My Epson scanner works fine with it as does my Iomega external drives and my Canon printer.

Falcon

Wasn't that an AirBook beside his chair? So why was he bashing Apple then?

But then at least the Darwin kernel is open source [1] and with MacPorts [2] he could himself a GNU/Darwin open source system.

Just kidding of course...

Martin

[1] http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/
[1] http://www.macports.org/

OS X doesn't get you as good an OS as FreeBSD

OS X is FreeBDS underneath. I have X11 installed. I also have Fink to install Debian packages dpkg and apt-get as well as MacPorts which installs rpm packages.

it gets you a WAY better OS than Vista, and WAY more software than any free UNIX.

Of the unices (unixes), OS X, and Windows you get the most from OS X. You can install Unix and Windows software as well as OS X software. With Unix you get Unix and Windows software but not OS X software. The same with Windows. If that's not enough you can actually run all three OSes on a Mac.

Falcon

Format, re-install, dual-boot XP/Linux.

I got a Macbook Pro 12 months ago. At the tyme I was thinking of installing Ubuntu on it as a dualboot but after thinking about a while I decided not to. I can do almost everything on it now as I could with Ubuntu. I have X11 installed along with MacPort which allows me to install RPMs and Fink which installs apt-get and .deb packages.

Falcon

Ahem...there is Freeware for Mac OS X. There is also F/OSS for Mac OS X. And if you want more F/OSS, you can use Fink or MacPorts. Fink basically gives Mac OS X Debian file tools, and MacPorts gives Mac OS X the FreeBSD Ports system. Finally, if one can get the source code and you have Mac developer tools installed, you can roll your own. Use the Source, Luke.

You can now conceivably run your Mac completely with F/OSS equivalents of all the useful stuff one uses that one usually pays for. It's nice to have the iApps but they aren't even necessary unless you want to bring in and edit video. For that purpose iMovie '06 (a free download for those who have iMovie '08 or even just an iMovie '08 license) is best unless you want to pay for something better like Premiere or Final Cut Express.

There. Hope that helps.

You know, the official Wine page lists OS X specifically as a supported platform. If you want to get the dependencies (expat, freetype, fontforge, iconv, and so on) together for Wine you can build it yourself on OS X. Also, projects like MacPorts make it easy to build all kinds of free software. Personally, I like to just download a prebuilt binary of Darwine.

What were you saying about being available to OS X users?

"I don't know if there's an equivalent of apt-get for OSX, I haven't looked..." Here is your equivalent: http://www.macports.org/

iTunes != Unix. Are you saying that because iTunes runs on Windows OS X is not Unix?

even something like KDE sticks to more of the core tenants of unix than Mac os X.

Mind telling that to the KDE developers who ported KDE to OS X? Or Gnome? How can X11 apps be configured for Gnome?

Simply, as I said in my post you replied to I can install many Linux programs, I wont say all because I don't know if there are any that can't be installed, on my Mac. Just as Linux users can use Debian packagers apt-get and dpkg to install .deb software on Linux, I can use Fink to install those programs on my Mac. I can also install software using Redhat's RPM package manager on it using MacPorts.

I am a Mac user too and I'm typing this on yet another Macbook Pro. But that doesn't change the fact that it's OS X, not an X window environment of any sort (Gnome etc). and so works on different paradigms.

And have you dropped into the terminal? Though it comes on the dvds XWindows' X11 isn't installed on new Macs, so I did install it. As well as MacPorts to install Redhat's RPM and .pkg and Fink to install Debian's apt-get software.

losing out on the advantages of linux? by using OSX you lose out on the most important advantage of gnu/linux and free software: you actually own the software, you don't just license it.

Excuse me but I'm typing this in a Firefox tab on my MacBook Pro. As an office suite I use NeoOffice, the native Mac port of Open Office. I can install RPM packages with MacPorts and for Debian's dpkg and apt-get I can use Fink. Anything, well most maybe as I don't know for sure everything will, that runs in X on Linux I can install on my Mac.

I see the convenience and reliability of ThinkPad hardware as superior

I'm typing this on my third Mac and I haven't had any hardware problems that prevented me from using it yet. While it's new, 8 months, my first Mac I bought used and I used it 8 years before it died. The second I also bought used and it lasted 7 years.

and the Mac OS is still a proprietary OS that seems to require a Windows license for some tasks anyway.

And you don't have the same costs to run the same task in Linux? I won't say all but some programs that run in Linux will also run in OS X. For RPM packages, there's RPM for Darwin (Mac OS X) and MacPorts. To install Debian's dpkg and apt-get packages in OS X there's Fink.

Many FOSS projects I am interested in (Open Office, Scribus being two big ones) are really lagging behind in the OSX ports,

However those projects that run in X on Linux also run in X on OS X. For RPM packages, there's RPM for Darwin (Mac OS X) and Macports. Debian packages dpkg and apt-get can be installed with Fink. So any, well some as I don't know if they all will, Linux packages that use either of these can be installed in OS X as well.

I have recently switched to Leopard and Xtools was on the disk. If you want to use KDE etc. you can. Once you have MacPorts running you can use most Gnu stuff. I think that MacPorts is better than Fink for getting all the Gnu stuff running but that is because I prefer an easy life.

if there's one feature about Ubuntu that I love more than my Mac is that you can install a TON of applications from Synaptic or via the awesome Add/Remove app. OSX on the other hand, if you want to install some new piece of software, be prepared to pay for it, or to get a really useless trial version.

I can use both Fink and Macports to install software. "Fink uses Debian tools like dpkg and apt-get to provide powerful binary package management." And MacPorts uses RPMs.

The reason people are buying mac is because they want something new, and when it comes to purchasing a computer your only choices are OSX and Vista for most people. I'd bet anything that if we saw more linux pcs at stores like best buy and walmart, the cheaper linux PC would CLOBBER in sales, because people really do care about cost.

I bought a tower PC with Linux preinstalled but when it came tyme to buy a laptop I bought a MacBook pro. I not only care about cost but I also care about usability. Oh and Walmart does, or did, sale PCs with Linux.

I'm sorry, I need my right and middle button even when I'm not using an external mouse.

I had no problem opening this reply in a new tab to type it on my Macbook Pro. I simply held down the command key while clicking and the new tab opened right up. I can also open a new tab to type a reply by holding down the ctrl key while clicking then choosing "Open link in new tab".

What actually drove me nuts was the little things, like not having normal buttons for PgUp/PgDown, Delete etc.

Holding down the fn key while pressing the page down key pages the page I'm looking at down one and holding down the command key while pressing the page down takes the window down to the bottom of the last page.

I know there are shortcuts for that, but hey, I want to concentrate on what I'm doing and not on remembering wild combination for what should be single keys

I switched from Windows to OS X in August and within a few weeks I had no problems with the above.

And for drag and drop install/uninstall - ha! 99.9% of what I need is available from Apt

I can install software using the same methods software is install in Linux. MacPorts allows me to install RPMs and "Fink uses Debian tools like dpkg and apt-get to provide powerful binary package management."

I run Linux on my macbook.

I got my MacBook Pro a few months ago and before I ordered it I had planned on dualbooting with Ubuntu. However once I got it I thought more about installing Ubuntu, and after deciding Ubuntu doesn't offer me anything I could think of over OS X I decided not to install it. Download and install FOOS with apt-get or rmp? "Fink uses Debian tools like dpkg and apt-get to provide powerful binary package management." And MacPorts installs RPMs. I can install Linux and well as Mac software. Right now I see no reason to install any Linux distro on my MBP.

If you mean apt-get, Macs do have it. Not only does Macs have Debian tools like dpkg and apt-get but it also has Redhat's RPMs.

You missed the tools and the point. If you need to install the major linux aplications and auto compile apps and dependencies try http://www.macports.org/. The mac is really versatile. The point is that You have a BSD environment with a powerful user interface and a good software base for multimedia. Eventually you can run Windows applications if you really can't avoid it. I don't know about all the cocoa stuff but it also looks nice. If you have trouble with the configuration of your system stop complaining and use the tools available on the net.

There are an awful lot of free software applications installable on the Mac through Fink or MacPorts. MacPorts even has some graphical applications under its aqua and gnustep categories and has other categories under which there are even more graphical applications usable under X11. I believe MacPorts even has a GUI available somewhere, but I prefer a terminal interface so I don't know about setting up or using the GUI. Also, Fink provides many applications usable under X11.

Just out of curiosity, are there any applications in particular you're getting through Synaptic that aren't available to the Mac through Fink or MacPorts?

There are an awful lot of free software applications installable on the Mac through Fink or MacPorts. MacPorts even has some graphical applications under its aqua and gnustep categories and has other categories under which there are even more graphical applications usable under X11. I believe MacPorts even has a GUI available somewhere, but I prefer a terminal interface so I don't know about setting up or using the GUI. Also, Fink provides many applications usable under X11.

Just out of curiosity, are there any applications in particular you're getting through Synaptic that aren't available to the Mac through Fink or MacPorts?

There are an awful lot of free software applications installable on the Mac through Fink or MacPorts. MacPorts even has some graphical applications under its aqua and gnustep categories and has other categories under which there are even more graphical applications usable under X11. I believe MacPorts even has a GUI available somewhere, but I prefer a terminal interface so I don't know about setting up or using the GUI. Also, Fink provides many applications usable under X11.

Just out of curiosity, are there any applications in particular you're getting through Synaptic that aren't available to the Mac through Fink or MacPorts?

There are an awful lot of free software applications installable on the Mac through Fink or MacPorts. MacPorts even has some graphical applications under its aqua and gnustep categories and has other categories under which there are even more graphical applications usable under X11. I believe MacPorts even has a GUI available somewhere, but I prefer a terminal interface so I don't know about setting up or using the GUI. Also, Fink provides many applications usable under X11.

Just out of curiosity, are there any applications in particular you're getting through Synaptic that aren't available to the Mac through Fink or MacPorts?

There are an awful lot of free software applications installable on the Mac through Fink or MacPorts. MacPorts even has some graphical applications under its aqua and gnustep categories and has other categories under which there are even more graphical applications usable under X11. I believe MacPorts even has a GUI available somewhere, but I prefer a terminal interface so I don't know about setting up or using the GUI. Also, Fink provides many applications usable under X11.

Just out of curiosity, are there any applications in particular you're getting through Synaptic that aren't available to the Mac through Fink or MacPorts?

then there's darwin ports and a gnu-darwin if you want other package managers.

Darwin Ports is now known as MacPorts. Its been a while since I used Fink, but both are valid solutions to solving the same problem.

You'd be surprised how much is available for the Mac, if you look amongst open source. Sure not everything has a refined Mac like interface, but for the more popular tools front-ends are usually available. Also much hardware that does not officially support the Mac have open source drivers or software supporting them, you just need to do a little research.

I can use the same software on Linux just as easily as I do on my Mac.

What software are you using exactly?

First I should say I got it reversed, instead I should of said I can use the same software on my Macs as I can use in Linux. Now as for what I use, for now I only use Eudora, Firefox, and a text editor on my Mac. When I get around to it though I plan on installing CinePaint and Inkscape, both of which are cross platform. I have X11 installed on my Mac and with either Fink or MacPorts I can download and install the same X11 programs for Linux on my Mac. Fink uses dpkg, dselect and apt-get from the Debian Project and MacPorts uses Redhat's rpm package management software. For technical reasons I haven't used my Linux PC in a few months.

I was helping a friend debug a problem a couple of weeks ago and logged into her machine and thought "Hey, I don't have ccache or Valgrind." Fortunately I had sudo access.

I'm sure it's not too much bother to remember ccache.samba.org or valgrind.org, but I didn't even have to remember that much.

Though I know a little about Linux I know nothing about most of these. I know sudo allows the user to switch to superuser and that samba is something like Windows file sharing protocol but ccache and all the others I have no idea what they are. How is anyone who knows nothing about them or Linux supposed to be able to install software in Linux? As it is now the Mac offers the easiest method for computer users to install software. Linspire's Click N Run, CNR, may change that seeing as how all it requires, other than net access, is to click to install programs. CNR doesn't work with many Linux distros though. It only works, in beta, with Freespire/Linspire, Debian, Fedora, openSuse, and Ubuntu. However Version Tracker offers something similar for Macs, as does Fink and MacPorts.

The only piece of proprietary software I've ever purchased for Mac OS X in fact didn't "just work". I could never get it working, and that's just one of the reasons I abandoned Mac OS X.

The only software I installed on my Mac that I had problem with was FOSS, Fink. Maybe I installed or used it wrong but after I installed Fink I tried to download and install HTTrack but it wouldn't download. Maybe I'll install and try MacPorts, but first I want to see what programs can be downloaded and installed with it first.

Every time I sit down at a Mac I inevitably end up swearing at the lack of a util I'm used to having (why no wget?).

And why are folders like /etc so hard to find in finder?