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Ballmer Scorns Apple As a $500 Logo
theodp writes "Speaking at a conference in NYC, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer did his best to refan the flames of the Mac vs. PC rivalry: 'Now I think the tide has really turned back the other direction [against Apple],' Ballmer said. 'The economy is helpful. Paying an extra $500 for a computer in this environment — same piece of hardware — paying $500 more to get a logo on it? I think that's a more challenging proposition for the average person than it used to be.'"
How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
Jealousy is a stinky cologne, Stevie. ;)
"And, they keep changing the OS and user interface faster than we can copy it! Bastards"
Brett
I pay the extra $500 not so much to get the Apple logo on my computer as to keep the Microsoft logo (and hence the Blue Screen of Death) off of it.
I'm agreeing with Balmer... so hell has frozen over.
I've better go dump all my money while I can. Maybe I'll get a mac.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
same piece of hardware â" paying $500 more to get a logo on it?
--
Users are more than happy to pay more to buy a tool that isn't a bug-laden, bloated POS thanks to the software that Mr. Balmer's company provides, thank you.
There are many differences between Microsoft and Apple but Balmer does have a point. Apple really make you pay for their branding.
How much is it really worth to have a white laptop for instance?
Note: Maybe this is flamebait, but if so the article/Balmer is/are trolling.
Conservation of angular momentum makes the world go round.
several months back, but I managed to slap my Ubuntu install CD in the drive before it could get past BIOS post. Conversely, my brother runs Macs to avoid the Windows logo.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
>paying $500 more to get a logo on it?
As opposed to paying twice for the same, crappy OS...
I suppose it would be better, in a moment like this, to look for free alternatives... right?
Hack your mind out of its sandbox.
why pay X amount of dollars for microsoft-windows when you can get Linux for FREE!
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
I seem to remember some other Ballmer moments of insight on Apple. There was that interview where he was laughing about how the iPhone was junk and Windows Mobile is the bestest evar. He also had some pretty amusing comparisons and whatnot between the wildly successful iPods and the Zune. I mean really now...aside from not selling for crap...the whole mass suicide on New Years was amazing...Apple clearly is failing because they haven't managed to have all of their products of a given model crash at the same time...
Seriously...this guy has a long track record of saying absolutely moronic shit, why does anyone take anything he says seriously? He will fucking kill Google right?
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
Well, I'd rather pay $100.00 for the Microsoft logo and whatever I choose to spend on hardware that I put together and be able to play every game I want to play than pay $500 dollars for a logo and be limited to canned hardware configurations and nominal game and software titles. Not trying to be anti-Apple or pro-Microsoft here. He just has a bit of a point. In today's economy Apple has to be feeling the sting. It's there own fault for being overpriced on pretty much every level. That said, I'd love to have a Macbook. But I can't afford even a Netbook right now.
Halitosis - (n.) Halle Berry's Camel Toe.
Which is better, linux on apple hardware or linux on not-apple hardware?
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
Ballmer is just trolling. He knows that Apple offers real value because OS X is a better operating system than Windows, which means that Apple has essentially taken away the high-end PC business away from Microsoft.
He should know that trolling isn't going to bring those high-end customers back to Windows. Maybe he does, who knows?
Microsoft has repeatedly chosen to patch Windows instead of rebuilding it from the ground up as a modern operating system, the way Apple did with OS X. They should have known 8 years ago that this was the wrong strategy.
This space left intentionally blank.
Why would Balmer care? He doesn't make money on the hardware either way. And I'm pretty sure, if you want to compare OSX to Vista operating systems off the shelf, Apple wins.
Since the article used the Adamo as their example, I went ahead and did a price check between a Macbook Air and an Adamo.
Turns out that for only $300 MORE, the Air will provide you with a CPU that's 400 MHz faster, the 128 GB SSD and dedicated graphics, along with OS X Leopard and the ability to run Windows Vista (probably better than the Adamo can).
Aren't CEOs of software megaconglomerates like Microsoft supposed to do this kind of research before talking smack?
Dell makes a craptastic laptop.
Take a MacPro, open it, and compare it with stuff like Dell or Sony or HP. Is it a little more expensive? Yes. It is worth it? Hell, yeah. ... God's gift to every person in the world that does not really love Microsoft. Or for people, like myself, that could happily live even w/out them.
There is no match as far as how clean and robust is the build, compared to other top-brand PCs. Absolute absence of flying around cables, top of the line electronic components, maximum care down to the very little details.
But this is a known thing to everyone that actually opened an Apple and other brand-name PCs.
Ballmer,
He has been able to drag Microsoft, once perceived as technology source with fairly large following, down to the nobody-cared status, as far as all the new technologies being introduced.
One failure after another, with Microsoft not being able to push new technologies even in their own niche (see Vista fiasco for one).
What's worse, that people pay $500 extra for a Mac, or that people pay $500 extra to avoid Windows?
Man, it's a hailstorm of flung turds already and we are only a few posts in.
All the fanbois calm down now....
Ballmer has shown that he in public seems really out of touch, his views on the iPod and iPhone show how what he says isn't the market view. I suspect that he has to say those things, and deep down is actually pretty scared about the iPhone etc. But he can't come out and say, "damn, they really target their niche really well", because that's not his style. Microsoft targets it's niche equally well, business is a sea of Dells running MS OS's, so it's not like he doesn't know about marketing to your core.
Once again he has missed the point, apple machines do cost more, but you get a unique product. There are precious few PC's out there that are concerned with how the back of the unit looks or cable management, etc. Apple is selling a higher caliber piece of gear than the generic best-buy special. Take a look at the apple keyboard vs. any other PC keyboard. You may or may not like the design, but the differences are clear.
With a mac product, you can run ALL software, the converse is not true. That's worth some money to lots of people.
Like any unique product, you will pay for it. but for a lot f people it is worth it.
Ballmer has to say those things regardless of what he believes inside, he's the voice of Microsoft.
Sheldon
OK, I'm no fan of Apple. I have never owned a Mac, and I haven't programmed on one since 1986. But, when you pay $500 extra for a Mac - if you do - you're getting more than a logo. The hardware is significantly better than average PC hardware. But more significantly, the OS actually works. Personally, I hate it - I intensely dislike the fact that when you get under the covers, it looks like UN*X but it isn't UN*X in a lot of ways that matter. It's essentially NeXT Step, and I hated that, too.
But, it works, and Windows really doesn't. Personally, I think Ubuntu or Debian are much more user-friendly and productive, and you don't have to spend $500 extra for them - but you put a Mac OS box next to a similarly specced Vista box and ask, 'will the user of the Mac be $500 more productive over the life time of the machine than the user of the PC?' the answer has to be 'hell, yeah!'
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
on the other hand, the vista window is a much-better known logo. like Mr. Yuk (tm) it serves as a valuable consumer warning device.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Some one is annoyed for not having nailed down the hardware side ;-)
Linux enthusiast, Mac@home and Windoze@work user
The price differential exists precisely because the head of Microsoft doesn't understand what it is about Apple software that causes many people to consider an Apple computer to be worth a few hundred bucks more than a similar-spec Windows machine.
I know a lot of people that want a Mac the price puts them off. Guess what folks. All Apple has to do is produce a new Mac that is a little bigger than a Mini that uses desktop parts. Bingo cheaper Mac. Apple is still making money hand over fist.
Even the $500 logo is a load of monkey muffins.
Lets take a look at the Adamo by Dell
1.2GHz Intel Core 2 Duo Processor
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium
2GB 800MHz
128GB3 solid state drive
Starting Price $1,999
Okay now lets look at the MacBook Air.
1.6GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB Memory
120GB SATA hard drive1
$1,799.00
The Air is $200 cheaper. Now you do get DDR3 and and SSD on the Adamo but the price just isn't that great.
At the high end the Dell is also $200 more expensive and you get the SSD with the air but an extra 2GB of ram on the Dell.
I just don't see $500 their.
The Mini is expensive for a desktop machine but it starts at $599 and I have not seen a $99 PC that has the features of a Mini.
So Windows is now the Walmart house brand of PCs. Hey times are hard and people don't have the money to buy the stuff they really want so they will buy a PC with Windows on it.
Good one Ballmer the problem is that Linux is EVEN CHEAPER....
Ouch...
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
You have to spend weeks tracking down software with the same features that come pre-installed on OS X. At even my wage, the labor comes to far more than $500, just to get a similar computer that misbehaves constantly, and ignores every standard out there.
No. I'll be sticking with Apple while Steve's still in charge.
On the scenario of the working environment. Here's two examples.
Buisness: Your boss isn't going to want to dish out the money for a mac. Especially when your buying these machines in high quantities. Most would go for the Dell Vostro buisness series. It makes sense.
Home: Home is a different situation and it comes down to how much dough you have to dish out. If you have the money, buying a mac will be the better choice. But with the way the economy is, I don't see many people wanting to pay that extra 500 or whatever...even if it's going to give you a much better quality computer.
Something to think about.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
OS X: $500
dark turtleneck + horn-rimmed glasses: $150
I wouldn't take Vista for free but I happily paid a $500 'logo tax'
Why can't people just prefer apple, and not be fanatical about it? Oh, right, because then that wouldn't justify the increased expense.
Personally I like the hardware and design of the MacBook Pro, the software is nice too, but for me it's not worth the extra coin.
Ballmer has failed to cast his Svengali-like spell over me. I... I just don't know. It's just that for some reason I cannot explain, I am able to control the impulse to go out and buy a retail copy of Windows Vista Ultimate.
Sometimes it seems that I can go days without even thinking about it. This very morning, I got out of bed, and got myself a cup of coffee, and it didn't even occur to me that if only I had Microsoft Select Plus licensing, I might have Windows Embedded Enterprise in my coffee pot.
I wonder. Does this mean I have developed some kind of unusual resistance to Ballmer's powers of persuasion? Does this mean that I, unlike so many millions of others, have somehow managed to penetrate that fatal glamour?
That makes me feel so... so... special.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Ballmer's full of hot air and if he doesn't release once in a while, he'll blow up. Microsoft wants me to look at them again? OK, here's a few tips:
1. Rebuild the OS. From scratch. Just like was done with OS X years ago. Quit with the pretty new interface over the same ol' base code.
2. Sell fewer editions. Come on, 6 or 7 different versions of the OS? Why? I can see having a home and pro edition, but drop the rest. It's too confusing and only serves to piss people off when they buy one that doesn't do what was advertised in all the commercials. One version of Mac OS and I get all the features.
3. Make sure the damn drivers are there when you release your OS!
4. If you are advertising a "pretty" new interface, make sure it works on the lowest machine requirements. I don't want to buy an uber-machine just to get the bells and whistles you advertise.
5. Slim down your OS. 16GB on the hard drive for Windows 7? Really? Seems bloated to me. I know hard drive space isn't a big deal anymore, but come on.
This is where fanboys decide the talking points for the next month or so and shit them all over the internet?
Apples are selling just fine, what is he talking about?
The Linux desktop is Ballmer's real nightmare... and it is getting closer.
but unfortunately I can't stick my head that far up my ass.
At home, I'm a Mac.
I see. And at work, are you a Red Delicious or maybe even a banana?
Searching for "all in one pc"
First result on a google search,
http://www.cadar.co.uk/
Second result on a google search,
http://www.trustedreviews.com/pcs/review/2008/09/29/HP-TouchSmart-IQ500-All-In-One-PC/p1
Third result on a google search,
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-Blu-ray-Drive-Vista-Premium/dp/B001IDYW7A
I could go on, but you get my point. I don't really think you have much of a point there, I can easily get the same as a regular PC.
I personally find OS X's UI annoying. So it doesn't fit my needs, never mind the fact the OS doesn't run some of the applications I use and others that it does run, it runs terribly.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
Rumour has it there's a non-Microsoft OS available for PCs, as well. In fact, I heard something about them having some kind of "year of the desktop" promotion and giving it out for free.
It's called Ubuntu. PCs with Ubuntu Desktop start at $249, which is less than the MSRP of Windows Vista Business OS alone.
What a pathetic little shit you must be in real life.
One thing Apple offers is good service. A user who isn't technical can buy their computer, their OS, and in a number of cases, the applications they use on a day to day basis (iWork for example) all from Apple. Instead of being shunted around between the hardware company, the OS vendor, the app maker, and perhaps some third party that is blamed for a driver issue, a user can just call one point of contact and most likely have the problem solved. Or, they can go to a Genius Bar and bring the machine and show the problem in person.
Of course, one personal account is statistically insignificant, but I can compare support experiences on a personal level (as opposed to calling a business support line.) For a problem in a laptop, one PC maker put me on hold for 2-3 hours, read a script demanding running diagnostics even though the problem was quite obvious, then pretty much said to go pester the OEM for the part for a replacement. When I had bad RAM in a new Macbook, I went to a Genius Bar, and they just swapped out the entire machine with a new one.
Business or premium PC support is different, but it definitely costs enough that brings the $500 to $1000 price difference way closer.
For the cost difference, less aggravation for a user who is more focused on the work they are doing as opposed to the computer can be worth it.
Another thing not factored in is OS X. OS X to some may bring the "Apple tax" gap closer together.
One can argue the security issues about OS X versus Windows, but because the malware makers are gunning for Windows with relatively few exploits for OS X in the wild, one doesn't have to be as on top of computer security. I can run an OS X box using the default browser without antivirus software and not really have to worry about the box ending up as a botnet client (although there are always Trojans). This would be pure suicide if I did the same with Windows and IE and no antivirus software. OS X is a lot more forgiving for people who are not atop things when it comes to securing their computer.
But there ARE a variety of Apple computers, each somewhat different than the others. The Mac OS installer is smart enough to know which Mac it's being installed on, and configures itself accordingly.
As for Windows. Well, now. HOW many motherboards are out there? How many different video and sound cards? How many webcams and microphones? How many fiddling little DLLs and drivers?
And Windows has to accommodate them all. Or, rather YOU, the users, have to accommodate them all on your own, by seeking out and downloading the latest drivers for some card made in China using FSM knows what revision of onboard firmware.
MS sells HOW MANY versions of XP and Vista? How many versions of Windows 7 will there be?
Mac OS X. One box, one version. Install on as many Macs as you own. Got the last version of Mac OS X and you just bought the latest? Go ahead, SELL the old one or give it away.
Apple Doesn't Care!
Same with their iLife and iWork application suites.
They WOULD rather that you didn't upload the DVD to Pirate Bay or the like. But they don't make anyone phone home or authenticate an install or give you grief if you don't have the serial number from the box.
ALL my installs of OS X have been from previously owned install DVDs. NEVER a problem. NEVER an authentication from Cupertino required.
Office? Feh! iWork, US$80.00 retail, probably less with an academic discount. iLife, same price.
Other software? Photoshop? Please. Graphic Converter uses most PS plug ins and filters. Outlook Express? I can manually infect my Mac with viruses and trojans without any help, thank you very much.
Mail app or Eudora work just fine for me as email applications. And neither will do anything I don't explicitly authorize.
Internet Explorer? Please! Don't make me laugh, I have chapped lips! Firefox makes IE its bitch 24/7.
Mac OS vs. Windows? Two Words: TIME MACHINE!
So, yeah, Ballmer, you sweaty little monkey, shrieking and throwing your feces at passersby, that logo IS worth the extra money to me.
If only because YOU don't see a penny of it.
Guaranteed! This comment 100% Anthrax free!
I never understood how educated people, professionals can take this Apple Mircosoft rivalry seriously, or any rivalry seriously for that matter? Why trust brands anyway? What's the point? There are swarms of people who are professionally paid to evaluate different products and assist us in making buying decisions.
Why bother?
At work I have a Windows workstation which I am mainly using for corporate email, browsing slashdot and as an X-terminal to a bunch of linux workstations including SGE cluster.
At home I went with the cheapest PC ($300), because I am mainly using it for internet and media.
What with all the ideology? Why do we have to join the group in order to make personal decisions about what we personally need?
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
This is definitely the pot calling the kettle black. How much am I paying exactly for all those "Built for Windows" stickers I've had to scrape off?
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
It's definitely worth the $500 to avoid malware.
It's worth the $500 to avoid dealing with the frustrations of bad user interface design
combined with randomly thrown together
hardware design.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
Paying an extra $100 for a computer in this environment â" same piece of hardware â" paying $100 more to get Windows on it? I think that's a more challenging proposition for the average person than it used to be.
I'm a post graduate student who has not so many bucks (Pounds in my case) lying around, either. But still, in June as soon as Apple releases their Snow Leopard I will go for a 24 inch iMac. Will cost me about 1085 Pounds as a student (incl. wireless mouse/keyboard), but for this money I get a computer which provides me with excellent value for the price: huge screen with high 1920x1200 resolution, excellent operating system with hardly any anoyances, things-just-work environment whit all the things I (!) need.
I have already an 20 inch iMac with Leopard at the office and therefore I know that it provides me whit precisely my needs. And compared to other students and member of staff which opted for Windows machines the iMac outperfomes them with respect to usability and complete lack of any problems (you have no idea how much problems the Windows machines have in the Windows centric world we have at our office!).
Anyways ... I for myself don't mind if Balmer keeps dreaming or throwing chairs. ;-)
If Microsoft would charge me only $500 for a copy of Windows that can compete with Ubuntu I'd be happy to buy it. Unfortunately Microsoft charges more than twice as much for their standard edition of Windows. (of course you can get the dumbed down versions without network capabilities, but I want real network support)
You saved $100 for the privilege of [...] severely limiting your social life and development of your social skills
Since when do video games hinder a social life? Perhaps PC games might, but that's only because the major PC game publishers seem to have a phobia against making party games designed for home theater PCs[1] with four gamepads connected through a USB hub.
increasing your later-life health-care costs due to lack of exercise and poor nutrition
Since when do video games such as StepMania cause lack of exercise?
[1] A "home theater PC" is a PC in the same room as an HDTV or other TV-sized monitor.
Apple has always been more expensive. Some people like to pay for the polish, so what else is new?
Microsoft is touting $1,300 SeniorPC Packages. According to the sales pitch, it's "what seniors want in a PC." Think SteveB feels this a better value than a Mac? :-)
Personally I like the hardware and design of the MacBook Pro, the software is nice too, but for me it's not worth the extra coin.
When I switched from Windows to OS X and got my MacBook Pro I first compared it's price to those of Windows OEM laptops and the prices were comparable. While an HP laptop cost about $50 less a Dell cost about $200 more for similarly configured laptops. So I didn't pay extra. I've had my MBP for about 20 months now and in that tyme I haven't had nearly as many problems with it as I have had with the Windows, or Linux, PCs I've also had.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Burn in Hell Monkey Boy!
The Church of Steve Jobs lives on!!!
(Mod funny Pls...)
I'd rather not buy a new computer as often and then get one with OS X.
I started buying Apple because the WGA was bitching about my XP being a copy(it wasn't) when my hardware started having problems.
I was already tired of the constant worries about vira etc, I didn't trust my system and often spent hours checking it.
Gaming on the PC had become a pain in the ass with all the anti-copy protection software acting like trojans.(the "don't trust my system" issue again)
So I bought a macbook pro to check it out(knowing that I could install windows on it).
It took 1-2 months to get used to it and now after 2 years, I am not going back to Windows. Perhaps I will move 100% to Linux some day.
It's not a matter of economy, If I cant afford a new notebook, I'd rather buy fx a mini instead. I don't trust Windows and I think Microsoft are bigger assholes than Apple. Plus I am tired of the concept/notion that you can't live without a windows computer in your household.
to whine about the mouse.
You should know after so many years of MS that illusion is everything. They're the king of bull, masters of the twisted fact
And how is Microsoft illusion any different from Apple's brand of reality distortion?
No, that you can find a bundled PC less than a Mac I have no doubt. What survey companies use for statistics is another story. Apple ONLY sells complete computers. Dell, HP, et.al. ALL sell a box then you pick a monitor and what ever. Claiming a $500 delta in ASP between Dell and Apple is simply not the same thing. If the survey used a bundled price including a monitor then it would have more meaning. I can't tell, and quite frankly I don't care to research what they used. I'm simply stating without knowing the criteria of the research report it is pretty meaningless.
As for apps, everything I need runs on a Mac. I'm happy. Your happy. That there is a market to serve both needs is a good thing not a bad one.
"TV, a medium as it is neither rare nor well done." Ernie Kovacs
Did you maybe mean 'craptop'?
Some people are only alive because it's against the law for me to hunt them down and kill them.
So is he implying that people are theoretically paying $100-200 for the Microsoft logo, since they can choose Ubuntu for free?
This is something that has been on my mind more and more often. First let me qualify myself as an Apple user. I was raised on macs. I've been using a mac my whole life. I currently own a 13" MacBook and a custom built PC (for games).
Now let me say this: Their computer lineup sucks!
IMHO Mac OS X is the best consumer OS (I regularly use XP, OS X, and Linux) and I'd like to run it on future systems. I'm looking to replace my desktop and my wife's
laptop.
I want a ~$1000 desktop with a decent GPU (for games) and she wants ~$250 netbook running OS X. What are my options.
MacMini: $700 outdated and overpriced
iMac: $1200 (pos GPU, can't upgrade)
Mac Pro $2.5k (over the top CPU, pos GPU, overpriced $2.5k for a desktop?!)
MacBook: $999 (good laptop but not a netbook)
MacBook Air: $1700 (LOL @ price, 1 USB port? HAHAHA)
Apple should make a mid-range desktop with a comparable GPU and a cheap ($~250) netbook. Instead I'll be purchasing a Dell Mini 9 and loading it with OS X (sacrifice some stability for price). I want to give my money to Apple but they refuse to fill glaring gaps in their lineup.
Conclusion: I see what Ballmer is saying. You're paying more for lower specs and less options. But damn...the OS is nice!
youre also paying for not having direct3d, which is what runs xbox360 which lets game companies port games to pc much easier
ok, show me one of the following windows based computers:
- a ultra-compact with comparable features of a macmini for 99USD
- a 13" laptop with the features of a macbook for 499USD
- a 15" laptop with the weight, battery life and features of a macbook pro for 1499USD
- an all-in-one with 24" screen comparable to an iMac for 999USD
- an 8core xenon workstation comparable to a macpro for 2500USD
if you want to bitch about apple, have a go at their *horrid* RAM and HD upgrade prices, or that they dont offer a reasonable midi-tower, because both truely sucks.
but the existing lineup is actually quite comparable to a similar windows PC, you might still pay 100-200USD more for the same processing power, but you get more features and very nice quiet machines that run a very good OS with really good hardware integration (you know, where sleep actually works instead of crashing your machine).
and before everybody shouts linux, if you're working in photo/video, this just isnt an option (no, gimp is comparable to photoshop in about the same way as notepad is comparable to vi). /rant
The basic problem is that the price point for a computer is now $299. Apple can get away with some brand premium, but not $500 any more.
This won't kill Apple. Their volume products, the iPhone and the various iPods, are down into that price region already.
Also, the era of "bling" is so over. Walk into any jewelry store today. It will be empty of customers. (Or, quite possibly, an empty storefront.)
Couldn't help myself
mac gay
1.00
windows gay
1.70
That's hilarious. I looked at the specs of that PC and the went to look at Apple's low-end iMac. The iMac, while not including any "Senior Apps" blows the doors off of that HP PC in pure hardware performance. I would whitebox that "senior PC" for less than $600 (done it for neighbors). That software then must be "valued" at around $500-600?
That Microsofts logo is worth much less than Apples.
I checked around and could not find a Windows based workstation that was noticeably cheaper then the Mac Pro without giving up features or quality. Bottom line is that its a kick ass workstation with a very quite, well designed, cooling system.
I personally find OS X's UI annoying. So it doesn't fit my needs, never mind the fact the OS doesn't run some of the applications I use and others that it does run, it runs terribly.
Wow, I was thinking the same about running Office 2007 on Windows.
If you don't like the way Macs are now, you might as well keep that copy of XP backed up for years to come. The shelf life of CD media is only so long.
With a PC, you have to buy all the other apps to have an equivalent of what OS X + iLife. How much are you willing to pay for the other apps? Unless, of course, you don't count the cost because they get the software from torrent sites.
Hey Microsoft, how about charging a reasonable price for your Vista Ultimate? $300 is too expensive in this economy.
Lets see.... Windows Vista Ultimate...$319.99. Apple OS 10.5...$129.00. Nearly a $200 mark up just on the OS. I think that user experience with Apple is well worth the extra $300 or so dollars.
I keep seeing people mention that part of the premium price of Apple products is that they put better quality hardware into their computers. If that's the case, then you get what you pay for.
In my experience, Dells are cheaper, but they're also cheap hardware, and their customer service isn't all that great. On the other hand, I have had good experiences with HP hardware (and customer service). But then again, you pay a bit more.
Still, if you go reading through Apple-related forums, while you'll hear about Apple having great customer service (if you pay extra for AppleCare), they don't always choose the best parts. For instance, there seems to be a lot of people who think Apple could have done a lot better job of sourcing their notebook hard drives.
After having been personally burned far too many times from buying the cheaper product and then ending up with useless junk and no recourse, I'm very willing to pay a bit extra to get something or higher quality that I can count on. But, are we really getting that from Apple?
I took the Mac plunge a couple years back and wouldnt buy anything else hardware wise now at least when it comes to notebooks. I need something reliable, portable and fast so far OSX fits that bill.
For me the best part about OSX is its portablity, try taking a harddrive out of a windows machine and moving it to another non indentical one and see what happens. With OSX as long as its an intel moving to an intel or ppc moving to ppc its just plug and go doesnt matter if its a core or core2 or what model. Better yet try troubleshooting a hardware problem on one windows machine by simply holding down a key on bootup to boot from another machine without having do anything without having to touch the innards.
As for price, my macbook (I dont own a pro) has better specs than the T61 for which I paid $200 more.
I buy the cheapest PC I can find - save the $500/apple and $130/Microsoft and put Ubuntu on it. Then I load WINE and run almost all my normal Windows Apps for free.
If I have anything that won't run in WINE, I have an old WinXP licensed VM that boots under VirtualBox (free) to run Visio, the latest Quicken, some stock selection and some video editing software. The few hours a week that I need to use this stuff don't make it worthwhile to be my main OS and waste an extra 1GB of RAM just to run it.
Absolutely! Doesn't MS even own a large percentage of Apple's stock? Why would they do that, while at the same time talking smack about Apple - a 'competitor'? It's horribly dishonest, and anyone who looks at the whole picture (a small percentage of a small percentage of the population) is gong to realize it. This is doublespeak at its finest.
It works to Microsoft's advantage for a number of reasons to mention Apple over Linux, or for that matter, to simply say Vista/W7 is/will be better than XP.
The latter draws attention to the fact that, indeed, their products have been shit, and MS would much rather people stick with XP than "upgrade" to a Mac over Vista/W7 (henceforth called "VMS" for Vista-based Microsoft System).
The former allows attention to be focused on Linux, giving the largely advertising-free OS (barring word-of-mouth) some greatly beneficial advertising: if MS thinks Linux is a threat, it must have merit, right? There's no way in hell MS would do that, so they'd rather create a phantom out of something that already exists (and which they gain at least some profit from, anyway) with the guise of (financial) competition than allow any attention to fall on their actual competitors.
I always find it hilarious how people assume MS doesn't benefit from an Apple sale. They own Apple stock. Most Mac users will buy Office ($150+) for their Mac. Bootcamp? Many will pay for a retail copy of Windows. I'd not be surprised if the average amount of money brought into MS from the sale of a Mac wasn't close to, or higher than, the total amount brought in by an OEM non-corporate sale of Windows, honestly.
The biggest thing MS has to look out for right now is unemployed tech workers who know their shit. Yes, seriously. If you're familiar with operating systems and can't find work, what're you going to do for money? You're going to try and do service and sales work. A lot of these tech workers will do MS-only type service, but I suspect once they do enough Vista or XP reinstalls (even if with a tool like unattended), they'll get tired of it and start trying to push Linux for a certain segment of their users. This means old hardware will have new life breathed into it, and there will be fewer computer sales. For your average user, a GNOME desktop is going to provide just as much functionaliy with firefox and thunderbird as an OS X desktop would with Safari and Mail.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Perhaps Apple buyers are really just paying $500 to avoid Microsoft products. And judging from the loyalty of Apple users, one could easily conclude that they find it to be a good investment.
I didn't read any one here knocking the quality of Apple stuff. I've only personally owned their ipods. All have died (no, not just the battery). iTunes blows anyway, had to load rockbox. Four out of five friends with a macbook have taken it in for repair AT LEAST once. Some as much as three or four times. But damn, are they some slim sexy lookin pieces of equipment. That must be why every university student has one. Apples are for those that need to keep things simpler, want fewer options, and those who don't need access to countless programs I couldn't live without. I'm running Vista with a 5.9 rating and multi-tasking like no other! OK, like many others.
It's the ease of use.
Personally I run Windows. At home and at work. I've used a Mac maybe a grand total of 48 hours in my life. That should tell you where I'm at with bias.
I also do tech support for printers. I suspect maybe half a percent of our calls the user is running OS X. Solving issues there is very simple (again I've not really used a Mac):
*Unplug the printer
*Go to system, printers, control/right click, reset printer system
*Reconnect the printer (or add it if it's a network printer)
This works in 95% of all cases
Windows:
*Unplug the printer
*Empty the printer queue
*Delete the printer
*Disable firewall programs (even for USB printers, and don't ask my why that works)
*Reconnect the printer (or add it if it's a network printer)
This works in 50% of all cases
Fewer steps, huge difference in effectiveness.
If it doesn't work ...
Mac:
*Unplug printer
*Reset print system again
*Create a new user account
*Run a file system fix
*Add printer
Windows:
*Unplug printer
*Delete printer
*Get customer to run a batch file from a special folder on the CD
***This is an issue in an of itself, as quite a lot of customers think you're telling them to open either the C or D drive ("well, which one" is a classic. DVD doesn't help: "I don't have a V drive")
*Hand holding them through this uninstall ("Yes, now you click next")
*Run MSconfig to disable all startup items and non-microsoft services and reboot
*Doublecheck that their AV and firewall is disabled (Norton's older programs are notorious about running anyway)
*(Realise that the customer is using a wireless network and a special service/startup item is used to activate their wireless NIC - applies only to network printers)
*Add the printer again
*Reboot to normal mode again
Then of course there are issues with routers that don't function well with IPv6 (or Vista's implementation of it). While it's cool that Windows finally has an IPv6 stack for those that need it, it's not cool that it'll break the network. I only know this because of the issues we have with it. Disabling the IPv6 stack on Vista computers on the network probably solves about half of the issues we cannot solve otherwise. Again, nothing I've seen happen on Mac OS X, but we don't have nearly as big a pool of cases to pick from.
Sure, we don't get as many calls about OS X as we do Windows. But the market share for Mac is much higher than the number of issues we have compared to Windows. Either Windows has dumber users, or Windows does something much worse than the Mac does with regards to printers. My guess is mostly the latter.
Or has Apple decided that Dell and its competitors can keep the midrange desktop market? For my part, I switched to Apple when I finally decided to get a laptop. I got a first-generation MacBook in 2006 and never looked back. For $1000, it's worth never having to lug around a Wintendo machine.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
Seems like the only way that Ballmer can get any press these days is by trolling. When was the last time he had this much attention? Wasn't it when he was laughing at the iPhone?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
First you have to pay the monopoly fee
You know I asked the Mac geniuses at the Apple store about that one, but was rather dismayed when they wouldn't let me pay with Monopoly money.
Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
Joking aside, Microsoft seems finally to have noticed the most important thing about Apple's market share growth in the past few years. People no longer believe the myth that they need to use the same type of computer at home as they do at work. The Macintosh is dramatically "over represented" in certain market segments, too, notably college students, working professionals, and corporate executives.
Most fascinating is that this growth has happened even though Apple has had zero market share growth in the enterprise, which accounts for about half the market. Apple's market share growth, in the "home, school, and small business" segments (where their share is above zero percent) is basically double the official numbers, so it's probably much closer to 20% in those markets. That's what has Ballmer's attention.
Apple Market Share Continues to Climb to nearly 10%, Windows Share Falling.
Note: The actual numbers also reveal that Ballmer is cleverly lying, in an attempt to minimize the gestalt impression of what's really going on. Apple's market share is about 3 times what it was five or six years ago. Sure, Apple's market share grew by "a point", but that was just in the last quarter or two.
What Ballmer fears most is a similar breakout in the enterprise desktop market. Unlikely? Perhaps not. I think it becomes more and more likely every day, almost inevitable, as a result of several factors.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
Are you fucking retarded or just another apple fanboi? Did you fucking do the comparison yourself before jumping up and down sucking Steve's dick? Its the fucking blind suckers like I am not going to buy any Apple thing (software or hardware) ever.
More like $1000 - $1400 then $500 mac pro $1000+ over priced with pc's at $1000 - $1400 with the same cpu power power X2 the ram with 2 more ram slots then the mac pro and better video cards why have a weak video card like they do in the mac pro at $2500 much less $3,299.00 and a $100 - $150 over priced ati video card upstate??
The mini is better then the old one but $600 and only 1GB of RAM??? - 128 for on board video? and 160gb hd? the $800 system still has a same cpu so $200 for just about x2 the hdd space and x2 the ram should of added 256 - 512 vram THAT DOES NOT come from system ram and a 7200rpm HD.
Imacs with on board video at $1,499.00 and $1,799.00 when the old ones had better cards with there own ram. Apple has lost it.
Even if you have pay $300 - $500 for mac os you still build a better system then the mac pro for less. Just watch in 6 mo when all the apple hardware is still at the same price as it is now and pc have came down in price for the same hardware with better video cards.
Yeah, osx is so much more secure than the alternatives.
Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
Yeah, osx is so much more secure than the alternatives.
Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
Paying an extra $500 for a computer in this environment -- same piece of hardware -- paying $500 more to get a logo on it? I think that's a more challenging proposition for the average person than it used to be.
I must say I agree, Mr. Ballmer. Have you heard of OpenOffice? It costs less (100% less to be precise) than Microsoft Office and does the same thing. Mostly just a difference in logo. And then there's Ubuntu.
Have a nice day, monkeyboy. :)
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
There are lots of things that one might not like about Mac OS X, but it's not because the system isn't really UNIX. That statement (and others like it) are quite common hereabouts, but they demonstrate a certain type of parochial ignorance about UNIX which is common among people (even sometimes very talented systems administrators) who have experience typically with a single platform, and very limited experience with others. UNIX is defined by a common set of programming API which let programs compile and run on multiple systems. (see: POSIX and UNIX 03)
UNIX has evolved a lot since birth, yet maintained it's UNIX identity because it was designed to evolve. There are things I loved about various BSD and SysV UNIX variants over the years, but I was very happy to see them go when something better came along. But hey, it's still UNIX. It still has that marvelous modular design philosophy, and you only need to know enough about vi to compile and install emas, right?
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
I once had to convince a single mom she didn't have to spend $2000 on a mac, and that a $500 pc would enable her kid to browse the internet, check email and watch dvds. Apple is despicable in that it has never offered decent cheap computers (Core 2 duo or core 2 quad tower). What it does offer is in-built redundancy ie. the iMac, by building a machine into a overpriced lcd that is completely un-upgradable
... Ballmer talks seriously about "threats" or "opponents" that are easily dealt with. That lets him go back later and seem like the hard-fighting conqueror.
But he trash talks and laughs at things that actually make him afraid. It's like the cat whose fur stands on end when it's afraid, to make it look larger. He can't help it.
When he's feeling confident about beating back Apple, he'll talk about how they're worthy competitors who are a threat in this area and have exploited MS's weakness in that area. When he's scared witless, he'll laugh that they're overpriced, they under-deliver, MS has been doing the same thing forever, and it's only a matter of time until Apple sees the error of their ways (and consumers as well, one would guess).
It's Ballmer's way of whistling through the graveyard.
I use a iMac Dual Intel Core. Windows XP, Windows 7 and Ubuntu run just fine on it. Happily, it doesn't crash and burn as much as the average Microsoft aberration. Steve Jobs was dead right when he stated that Microsoft makes mediocre software for mediocre users. Bleat on fat man. I can hear the fat lady getting warming up her voice.
A defense contractor in Antarctica is a bad idea. Get Raytheon OUT of Antarctica.
That slashdotters will complain bitterly about paying an extra $150 for the most powerful console on the market and then defend to the death their right to pay $500 extra for an apple.
I don't think one is right or one is wrong... just be consistent!
Ballmer should pay more attention to Microsoft's own products before criticizing Apple. If Apple's products are overpriced so are Microsoft's.
... some people make software actually worth buying ?
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
That's because we're human, unlike you dwarves.
As do I.
--- I hate people who top-post
Humans start with a superficial view, dig themselves into a hole, and then drop a post. Whereas every dwarf starts off with a 'mine, mine, all mine view', cuts a chimney, and shoves a post up.
The human method is concerned with being upright and upstanding (distance above ground). Dwarves I have to speculate about, but I understand they don't like a post to stalactite down and dent the helmet. I don't even know why you post at all, but maybe its a way of finding out how superficial you've become.
Anyways, both are perfectly fine ways of behaving, as long as we agree to hate each other. Humans do tend to get shot at while posting, whereas dwarves get speyed. Live and let live, ok.
Of course, if I see a hole appear in the ground, I'll drop a sharpened post in it, but that is only in retaliation for whichever of you bastards cut a spade into my bum the other day when I was using what appeared to be a convenient toilet in the wilderness. It just looked like an unused hole. I wasn't being malicious. Bastards.
is late for an FP
Here you have 2 chairs. Both appear the same. But one of them has an apple logo, and thus is $500 more expensive. But when I through either one, they perform exactly the same!
My bias: I primarily run Linux (writing this on a Debian workstation), so I suppose I might be more of a "Microsoft basher" than an "Apple fanboy."
However, one thing I will say about Apple is that it has arguably the best customer service of any large company I have ever dealt with in ANY FIELD.
Fortunately, Apple products tend to "just work" and continue "just working" so I don't have to deal with service that much. However, when I have I have been impressed.
When I called Apple support for a particularly obscure software problem, within I got conferenced in with an OS X software engineer who had kernel HFS code in front of him. Keep in mind, this was the standard consumer 800-number level support! How often would this happen at, say, Microsoft?
I broke one of the mechanical components of my iPhone, walked into an Apple store, and within ten minutes walked out with a replacement phone - no arguing, frustration, or upselling attempted. Along the same vein, a friend of mine had a laptop that was YEARS off warranty, and when the DVD drive finally died Apple still offered to repair it at no charge.
I've even gone into the Apple store to look at accessories like earphones and had a salesperson tell me that a different retailer was having a sale that I should check out to save money.
My point I suppose is that the "Apple tax" (or what I would more formally refer to as the "brand premium") is in no small part to pay for having a large number of well-trained (even more with respect to customer interaction than technical skill) employees with sufficient authority to actually deal with problems. Apple takes the attitude that customer satisfaction is more important than low prices - and I thank them for it.
I took the plunge and bought a Macbook Walstreet in the early 2000s, complete with new printer (no USB at that time) and new Office software. Altogether, about $2200. The laptop hardware was a thing of beauty - ergonomic and well designed. It crashed more often than the Wright bros., however. After putting up with this for 6 months, I went back to Win98 because it was MORE stable. I live in east TX, so there's not a lot of local support to lean on. I'll grant that perhaps OSX is more stable, or that I got a rogue piece of iron, but I'm never going to bet a couple of thousand dollars on Apple again, on someone else's sayso. Just Didn't Work. By the way, this liberating experience has saved me a lot of time and hassle. My MP3 player? A $40 piece of Chinese junk, but it works great. I can sync it with a toaster, if I want, and I don't have to ask Mr. Jobs for DRM permission to do anything. Try it, you may find out that white earplugs are overrated.
*THIS* will be the year of the Linux desktop!!!
Isn't really about Apple vs. Microsoft, or which one has greater "intrinsic value" and whether that justifies the price difference. There's no such thing as "intrinsic value", only "perceived value": things are worth exactly how much people are willing to pay for them, and perceived values differ among individuals. Otherwise if things are all sold like commodities we wouldn't have a demand curve, only a demand step. Everyday people are willing to pay more (if circumstances allow) for essentially the same thing. Why (with apologies to this grossly stereotyped and possibly offensive example) Italian cars > German cars > Japanese cars > American cars > Korean cars > somewhere else cars, where differences in essential function of getting from pt. A to B safely are negligible. One wonders what kind of gas Mr. Ballmer's would put in his car? 87 or 91?
Intrinsic value to perceived value is like F=m*a is to nature. Useful at times, but isn't the real thing.
Perhaps a CEO of a multinational company should urge his business to build up its brand's perceived value to competitiveness, instead of mocking the potential customer base for their "overpaying for commodities". If I'm a stock holder of that company I'd be really concerned about the long term vision of its most important employee.
It seems to me that Ballmer is a tired old man. Years of helping Gates destroy computer standards and be abusive otherwise has made him detached from any kind of happy reality.
It's not violating any license to install software on a machine that doesn't meet the hardware requirements. It's just that the result will be unsupported and possibly unsatisfactory.
Ballmer said. 'The economy is helpful. Paying an extra $250 for software in this environment -- same functionality software -- paying $250 more to get a logo on it? I think that's a more challenging proposition for the average person than it used to be.' There, fixed that for him.
By the way, when was the last time anyone gave a damn what Steve Ballmer says...?
Full Disclosure: I own a 17" macbook pro, and an 160gb ipod classic. Prior to that, a 17" powerbook g4. I don't consider myself a mac fanboy, but a unix fanboy. I switched from 14 years of Linux to macs because I got tired of dealing with drivers. That said...
Let's say SteveB is right. Apple charges a premium for its logo. I think he's right to a certain extent. Many pundits have deemed Apple a "luxury brand". Jonathan Ive has defined a look for Apple. It's clean. It's pretty. It looks different. It sets trends. Most importantly, people like it enough to pay for it.
Now the question that SteveB, Alex Bogusky, and the rest of Microsoft, are going to do about it besides whine, because so far that's all they've done.
He is a very experienced business man, so we can assume that he is right, an an Apple computer costs $500 more than a Windows PC with the same "spec". On the other hand, we know that Apple has increased its unit market share in the computer business year over year over year, so there must be something that convinces people to pay $500 more for the same spec, which means they believe that a Mac is worth $500 more than a PC with a same spec. Now money is somehow tighter at the moment, and some people will buy cheaper even though they know they get better value for more money. This doesn't change the fact that a Macintosh, by Ballmer's own admission, looks worth $500 more.
So where does this difference from? One part is design. If you just take the looks, I would pay more for a computer that looks like a white MacBook than for a computer that looks like a Dell, if they were otherwise identical. And I'd pay more again for a computer with the aluminium MacBook design. Then there is quality + service. I think a Mac is less likely to break down, and Apple's service is outstanding. That's worth money. Then there is the Apple logo. Yes, people will pay a little bit more just for having an "Apple" logo than a "Dell" logo. Obviously not $500, but maybe $20, maybe $50. Let's add this together: I think Apple could sell their computers with Windows pre-installed and no MacOS X license and charge $200 more than another brand with same spec and find customers to buy it.
But the difference is $500, not $200. Here is where Mr. Ballmer should take note: $300 of the difference in value between a Mac and a PC with the same spec is _the operating system_. Yes, Mr. Ballmer, people think that MacOS X is $300 worth more than Windows Vista. This is quite damning for Microsoft. Now maybe he is right. Maybe people will have to save money and go with the substandard Windows instead of MacOS X. Maybe he is wrong. What stays right: MacOS X is worth $300 more.
"it is also true the Macbook chassis is vastly superior to practically any "PC" notebook vendor."
It is most assuredly not true. I have a 2 year old MBP, and I replaced the hard drive last fall.
Let me tell you that is a nontrivial exercise because of a few factors:
1) The case is beautiful, but you must remove 20+ screws and you have to take the entire notebook apart to change the hard drive
2) The screws are very tiny, and the case doesn't really fit together that well. If you don't get just right, the clever magnetic catch doesn't release properly. Then you get to take it all apart again.
3) The cables are held in place with adhesive tape (!!!!) inside.
4) The holder for the hard drive was clearly built for cost and is not well engineered.
5) The wiring overall inside is cheaply done.
6) I've taken apart a Mac Mini, and the construction of the MBP internally is similar.
So I use my MacBook pro, and I like it, but I compared it to the laptop work provided me (a high-end HP).
1) Things like hard drives and memory come apart with no screws. They simply pop out without disassembling
2) There is no tape on the inside of a comparable HP laptop. If you have to disassemble it, it's pretty easy, and there are not 20 screws in the entire machine. The wiring is done far more intelligently.
The HP is simply engineered better than the MBP. Now I'm not saying every HP laptop is well engineered and put together, but the laptops that in the same price range as the MBP are simply better machines.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
Nothing you said actually contradicted or added to the parents point.
engadget
and ballmer
i dont see whats wrong with what ballmer is saying. im not a huge fan of him or windows by any means but an apple is an x86 computer in a fancy case with an overpriced operating system. sure its better than windows but not so much to be paying such a steep price for it.
the extra cost just makes less people afford it and the ones who do end up being smug like hybrid owners in southpark, or on slashdot..
No, you don't pay $500 more for a name. You pay more (definitely less than $500 more) for someone to:
a.) build the machine for you
b.) make sure the parts work with one another WELL for you
c.) not have to deal with borked CPUs, HSFs, uneven arctic silver, and so on, ad nausium
d.) design and INSTALL an OS that puts Microsoft windows to the trash and manages to keep pace with Linux
e.) make an alternative to Linux that has more drivers (hey, it's an old hat, but it's not going away)
Personally, if a person isn't in the market for an Apple machines, so be it. There's absolutely no reason that there should be 'one correct' platform for computing.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
iMacs have always had non-integrated video. Not sure where you got the idea that has changed.
I can find a laptop that will suit my needs for $700 or so. That its specs are different than the lowest priced Mac laptop is totally irrelevant, because it meets my requirements.
You don't calculate the Mac tax by comparing similar PC and Mac systems, you calculate it by comparing the PC you would buy with the Mac you'd have to buy.
He would kick your ass so stfu. His job is to crush Apple into dust, not sing Kumbaya with all you commy hippies.
Yes, it had to be pre Mac OS 10. Mac OS 10 was 2001. I had a Wallstreet Powerbook and ran it until ~2006 (I'm pretty sure the PMU died). Mac OS 10.2 (2002) worked very well on it. I used it as basically a browser machine/mp3 player/Office docs editor (had already got a newer Powerbook). It was rock solid. Only had problems when I was mucking with the wireless drivers for KisMAC [kinda understandable at that point :) ].
Microsoft(R) Windows Vista Ultimate (TM): $320
Microsoft(R) Office Professional (TM): $500
Linux: $0
OpenOffice: $0
I know, the Microsoft cds come with exclusive high-tech copy protection and DRM, but is it really worth the extra $820? Or is it just branding?
If you had a mac, it wouldn't let you write like that. Anti run-on sentence protection is built into the hardware at a molecular level. 100% true.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I thought the ribbon was ingenius, it was so ingenius that I decided that my next cross platform application would use it. It did however take some getting used to at first. It also feels a bit weird when switching between it and other office suits at times.
Believe it or not, I'm not set in my UI ways. I just don't happen to like OS X's methods. I use more than just Windows, I use more than one *nix desktop environment/window manager. I just don't like OS X's interface any more that I like fvwm (which I think isn't that user friendly if you want to customize it).
Just because I don't like one thing, doesn't mean I'm utterly set in my ways.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
Based upon one month of downward figures, I think Ballmer is a little premature.
Chances are that the post refresh sales will more than make up for the drop off.
So what does he say then? The economy must be great because all of the extra money people are willing to spend on apple logos?
Ah, thank you for clarifying that. =)
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
Ask all the people at Starbucks why they are willing to pay more for the coffee made from the same beans available at cheaper places. Apparently enough people think it is worth it to buy their $5 coffee.
Nor did anyone say anything at all about Windows.
I'd be happy to give OS X a shot, but I'm not going to lock myself to a single hardware vendor.
Since when did Apple give a shit about the "Average Person"; for all their failings, what I will always respect is that Apple would rather make Dollars on one sale than cents on a hundred.
Their value proposition is aimed at the top of the top of the market with significant disposable income and a great interest in non technical attributes (such as brand, design etc...).
If average people or even "power users" buy them, thats just cream; but they will remain happy as long as they are the device of choice for the wealthiest slice of the market.
This is why they punch so far above their weight in terms of media coverage, sales margins etc. considering how relatively small a company they are.
No, that Ballmer doesn't get this should be truly worrying to Microsoft employees and shareholders.
Colour me amused.
err!
jak.
I read recently that Apple is among the worst major PC manufacturers in terms of hardware reliability.
Do you have a link? Almost every survey I've read or heard about rank Apple Macs as one of the most reliable computers.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
the only reason he thinks Macs cost more is he doesn't have to pay for Vista!
without Macs that cost $500 more than the typical Vista Business PC, what would Microsoft copy after?
Maybe Steve Ballmer needs to hire some more developers developers developers and throw a few more chairs to finally figure out why people actually want to pay that extra $500 to get a Mac OSX based Macintosh instead of a Windows Vista PC?
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
They're priced like servers, they have RAID support, ECC memory, server type processors. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
Mac makes you pay more for the server OS, but that's typical. Mac Pros are designed to be servers, not desktops. Mac doesn't sell a tower type desktop, if you want a tower they force you buy a server.
now I want a new machine and the 20" Dell is still perfect, but I can't reuse the iMac.
First off, because they are not so easy to reuse or re purpose I don't like these all-in-one computers, whether iMacs, Dell XPS One, or other all-in-one computers. To me they are a waste of resources. However you can still use the iMac. See this. It describes how you can use it with another Mac. For instance using a Firewire cable you can use it as a Firewire drive. MacOSX explains how you can use some iMacs as a second monitor. Check Can MacBook Pro laptop use IMAC monitor (easily)? as well.
Hope this helps.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
There are a lot of Slashdotters who'd love to upgrade or build their own Mac. Back in January I upgraded my MacBook Pro, and I may again. I had the HDD it came with swapped out for a bigger drive, and I may add more RAM.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Yes, Genius Bar. Every Apple store I know of has a Genius Bar where you can take your Mac, iPhone, or iPod to have it serviced. The only other chain store I know of that does that is Best Buy, where the Geek Squad will provide services. Notice I said chain stores, as small mom and pop stores do the same.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
You obviously haven't tried the new MBP.
I've been a PC guy for 15 years, and I always hated the one-button mouse - and NO, I do NOT want to add a USB mouse to my laptop to have something functional. I want the built-in mouse to do the job.
But I played with a new MBP recently, and I was seriously impressed. The huge new multi-touch trackpad is sweet. The gestures make perfect sense, and you can even configure it (through an intuitive GUI) to have virtual left and right mouse buttons at the bottom corners, yet retain all of the multi-touch gestures.
It's really well done.
During tough economic times, people tend to look for items that will last and provide greater value over time. In my experience an Apple macboook pro has proved to be very rugged and functional over time. Any equivalent Laptop I have owned has lasted 2 years before it was obsolete or falling apart, where as a Mac will last 4+ before I upgrade out of one. I haven't been shopping laptops recently, $2(X) > X=$500 for anything over a $500.
Eschew Obfuscation
If I worked at Microsoft, I probably would also have the impression that software was worthless...
The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
You're right but I said laptop and the only other OS that comes on them, that I know of, is Linux and I have not seen a single laptop in a store with Linux preinstalled. Plus, as I said earlier, one of the reasons for getting a Mac is because I want to do photography work and well as cross platform development.
I'd be happy to give OS X a shot, but I'm not going to lock myself to a single hardware vendor.
I'm not locked into a single hardware vender. In January I replaced my HDD with a larger one that does not have the Apple brand on it anywhere. I can also put more RAM into it that's not from Apple. Actually someone at an Apple store once suggested I get a Mac with the standard amount of RAM then buy more from somewhere else because it's cheaper. The handbook I got with my Mac even shows you how to add more RAM. Neither of the external HDDs nor my printer are from Apple either.
Quite simply there is no more hardware lockin on my Mac than there is with any other laptop.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I bought my Merom MacBook Pro 2.5 years ago, and I STILL see no reason to upgrade. 2.33MHz is still OK for processor speed, and I threw in a 500GB hard drive in the meanwhile. And if I were to sell it, I'm sure I'd get a heck of a lot more than I'd get for a PC laptop.
Plus, it runs Mac OS X, it's quiet, it's built out of aluminum, has DVI out, and it's less than an inch thick. That's worth a little extra to me. Looking at sales figures I can conclude I'm not alone.
Right now, I'm supporting several hundred (Windows) laptops divided between Lenovo, Dell, and Panasonic brands. While the Panasonic "Toughbooks" seem to take the most abuse and still run, both our Lenovo and Panasonic laptops routinely last 5 to 7 years before failing.
Yes, we have a few users who will destroy a laptop of ANY brand in less than three years. I would not generalize any one of their experiences to condemn an entire brand as your comment seems to do.
Live Long and Prosper - Thanks Leonard. You are missed.
While this is a news site and thus reports news. I find it hard to believe that anyone is naive enough to think that the vast majority of the comments will be anything other than mac users attacking Microsoft, PC users attacking Apple, and Linux users laughing smugly.
Tanto nomini nullum par elogium.
Yet another moron in business that thinks their shit doesn't stink and people have no idea that there is a real difference between a Mac and a PC. Sure a lot of components are the same now, since they are both on Intel but I have and will continue to happily pay more for a system that I don't have to worry about getting whatever the latest virus is, doesn't routinely crash, is well designed, well integrated computer. It does what I want it to do and more! And truth be told, you can NOT find a comparable PC for $500 less. It might be cheaper, but its not significantly cheaper when comparing apples to... well.. Apples.
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs
My GOD, there's three on one page.
And some more:
http://system76.com/index.php?cPath=28
These damned things are everywhere:
http://www.linuxcertified.com/linux-laptop-lctp.html
http://www.thelinuxlaptop.com/products_new.php
My Babylon
I pay the extra $500 not so much to get the Apple logo on my computer as to keep the Microsoft logo (and hence the Blue Screen of Death) off of it.
I would have paid a little extra to avoid the MS logo and Blue Screen of Death but I paid about the same for my MacBook Pro as I would have for a Windows laptop.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
>I personally find OS X's UI annoying.
As opposed to impersonally finding it annoying, I suppose.
As opposed to being universally annoying to all.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
It's not as simple as ditching Windows and using Linux for a lot of people. I switched from Windows to both Linux and OS X. My desktop PC, under desk tower really, came with Linux installed. And my laptop is a MacBook Pro, MBP. I rarely use the Linux PC. It came with only a 40 GB HDD so I added a 750 GB HDD as a second one. I used it for user files. But then the motherboard failed and since it was still under warranty where I bought it replaced the mobo. Then they had to reinstall Linux, before they did I gave them written instructions not to format the large drive but to set it for user files. The person who reinstalled Linux put it on autopilot and the drive was formatted anyway, so before I use it I want to recover the files I had. Which come to about 500GB.
Anyway, I want to start a photography business. For print GIMP just does not cut it so I may install Ubuntu on my MBP and try CinePaint to see if it will work for me. If not then I'll have to get Photoshop, which isn't easy to get working on Linux.
Should there be a Law?
one look at the prices and specs of the new mini's should tell you that apple's grossly overpriced.
2009 calling. For what Apple offers their prices are competitive to Windows OEM prices. Sure you can get a Windows PC cheaper from some OEMs but how good is the hardware used? Unfortunately Apple has a big gaping hole in their product lineup.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
So what does that say about Microsoft products, Steve?
HDDs and RAM are a tiny part of any hardware budget.
When I can buy a license for OS X to put on a Dell or Acer, I'll give it a try.
the keyboard itself wasn't the problem, but rather the trackpad became totally unresponsive.
I haven't had a hardware, or OS, problem with my MacBook Pro.
Fortunately, I was able to find a new OEM top bezel for the MacBook for about $60 on eBay and installed it myself, which was much better than the $300 that the local Apple Store had quoted for a replacement bezel (it's an integrated unit, so there's not a separate SKU for just the trackpad).
Yea, I've even had Apple employees tell me to buy some things from somewhere else. Before I got it one told me to get the normal amount of RAM then to buy more and install it myself. In January my hard disk was getting full and another one told me to go to an authorized service center to have them replace the HDD with a bigger one.
I'd also had the infamous "sudden power-off" issue that a lot of the early MacBooks suffered from but Apple flatly denied the existence of.
I don't recall hearing this one. What I heard I didn't like though was the issue with graphics, how "true color" wasn't really displayed.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
If there wasn't the common enemy of M$, would apple be able to have it's $500 logo charge?
Can't you see that Bahlmer is a 800 lb gorilla in the room banging an ax against some nice shiny brushed metal thats too pretty to look away from? while you've been watching them, their goons have been in your pockets.
I don't want a Mac Mini (very hard to expand toy) or a Mac Pro (high-end $$$$ workstation). I want something in the middle.
This is one of the problems I have with Apple myself. I'd love to be able to get a desktop Mac that wasn't an all-in-one like the iMac. Maybe even a mini tower where I could add RAM, a second graphics card, and another hard disk. I'd love a Mac Pro but price holds me back, so if I could get a small version of it for half the price that would be nice.
Apple has tossed all that out the door and given us overpriced bling.
Apple is not over priced, they just don't offer lower cost expandable systems.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
There are many differences between Microsoft and Apple but Balmer does have a point. Apple really make you pay for their branding.
That depends on what you buy.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Ballmer is so obnoxious, that he's not. Does he really believe that this shift in sales will last? It goes back and forth so much, that bragging about the small period where PC's may be ahead makes Ballmer the World's Biggest and most Useless TOol!! Have I ever told you about the time I beat Ballmer in a arm wrestling match?
I suspect that Microsoft can sell Windows cheaper because they get a kickback from the folks that write the network-installed add-ons that automagically turn your PC into a spam-spewing porn-hosting zombie!
http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs
My GOD, there's three on one page.
Oh my, Installing Ubuntu on a MacBook Pro. I've been thinking about doing it myself. "This page describes how to install Debian on a MacBook Pro.".
http://system76.com/index.php?cPath=28
Can a photographer who's not a Linux guru use Photoshop on it? And apply that to all the other Linux laptops. So where's the lockin?
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Why can't he understand the Apple logo is beautiful?
They forgot one thing. You can just walk in to an apple store with a broken Mac/iphone etc. and they will send it for repair, then notify you when the repaired stuff is ready to pickup.
Same thing cannot be done with a PC. Just the phone call to Dell/Toshiba/HP/ blah blah is going to take you more time. Not even counting the time you need to find a translator to understand what the customer service rep. talking over the phone.
New Economic Perspectives
Slapping a "Made for Windows Vista" logo on a computer destroys $500 in value. Slapping a Zune logo on a device would likely destroy all of its value.
Remember that each Apple product usually comes with two Apple stickers in the box to put over your Dell logo. So you're actually getting three Apple logos for your $500.
Joking aside, though -- what if Apple actually sold a product with no logo, but that was functionally identical to an Apple- branded product? Let's assume that both come in packaging that irrefutably identifies them as genuine products. If they were priced equally, I suspect that most buyers would pick the branded version, meaning that the Apple logo itself does have positive value. On the other hand, Windows-based knock-offs of the Mac mini and iMac sell for a premium over generic beige boxes, which demonstrates that there is value in Apple's hardware design (aesthetics and form factor) for some consumers.
I use both a dell D630 running XP and a MacBook running Leopard on a daily basis. Both have 2Ghz processors and 2GB of RAM. The hardware differences are so minor as to be all but irrelevant. I tried Vista and rolled back to XP for many reasons. The MacBook offers a far, far better user experience with far less administrative grief. This is due IMO to their tighter integration of hardware and Operating system. Frankly their OS just works better. All these years of copying Apple and Microsoft still can't get it right. That's not surprising, just disappointing.
In the never ending battle between those that say Macs cost more than PCs and those who disagree, never has there been a more telling story than today. There are two contenders out there trying to compete with the MacBook Air. If you look at the features, performance, weight, bundled software, just about any parameter - but especially price, Adamo and Envy are nowhere equal in value to the MacBook Air.
So you have to ask yourself, when you do all of those other price comparisons, like the PC you bought from Walmart or the PC you built from scratch at Fryes - are you really doing a fair comparison? I think not. Maybe you really do get what you pay for...
This is rich. How about paying $300 to $500 more for a broken windows logo (and broken software)? He is correct, in this economy, paying more for less is more profound than before. Too bad he limited his argument to hardware (brick and mortar stuff). His argument applies equally to software, and in spades. Why pay for broken, virus infested software, when you can get more secure software for vastly less money? He may have stopped short, but customers won't. In the current economic climate, the value proposition his company is offering is untenable. Including the higher cost for security and anti-virus protection, his software costs more than the competition. He will have to start paying customers to use his software in order to compete. At some point very soon, he is better off pulling out of the game.
My Mac cost $599 . So where are all of these Core2 Duo PCs for $99?
It's there own fault for being overpriced on pretty much every level.
2009 calling, it wants it's money back. Mac prices have been comparable to PCs for years.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I personally find OS X's UI annoying. So it doesn't fit my needs, never mind the fact the OS doesn't run some of the applications I use and others that it does run, it runs terribly.
Do you mean specific apps or specific tasks? Can you name one task you have to do that a Mac can't? Something like word processing not MS Office, which MS does have for OS X.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
No, you can buy just a Mac Mini or Mac Pro without anything else, no keyboard, no mouse, and no monitor.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
When you can't beat them in technical excellence, outsell them in marketing!
Under the increasingly cheap-over-good mentality of Steve Jobs, what Ballmer accuses here has become closer and closer to the truth. I'm not sure if it's necessarily completely true yet, but it's nowhere near as far off-target as it once was.
The switch to Intel was, for me, the last straw; if I'm to have basically no choice but to use a junk architecture, then I want to at least get my money's worth out of it. And so as my PPC Macs have died, I've replaced them with Linux boxes. I have one working Mac left -I see no point in wasting it as long as it continues to run- but it will be my last.
You don't *have* to update drivers in windows and, assuming you don't install some stupid spyware, you can pretty much leave a windows box alone and just install the standard updates.
Windows is the spyware. Windows includes WGA which phones home.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I could go on, but meh.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
A art studio local to me moved to 100% windows systems because Photoshop couldn't even do 64bit on OS X, and they really needed the extra memory requirements.
Yea, Adobe only releasing Photoshop 64 for Windows pissed a lot of people off.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Exactly.
"First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you, then you win." M. Gandhi.
Maybe not in that order but Microsoft is basically starving for oxygen since the many Linux distributions out there took a dump in the market space where they were breathing. They are doing it because Linux distributions offer the only viable value proposition that can compete with Microsoft in terms of volume. As more software vendors realise they can maintain or increase their market share by testing their software under WINE, they validate the platform as viable. High end application users already realise this and, as more people ask the vendor if their software runs under Linux, the cycle continues. It's the same with hardware.
I don't think Apple can (or would want to) do what Microsoft can do in terms of pure volume of installed base. How would Apple up the production to the equivalent amount of units Microsoft ship without ruining the customer experience they have worked so hard to create. Ballmer knows this, and it looks better saying this than admitting they are 'losing market share based on value'. Simply put, Linux doesn't pose the same threat to Apple as it does to Microsoft. Sure Microsoft will always have some offering out there, but Apple has already positioned itself in a different market space that Microsoft and Linux distributions are in. Linux is the turtle in the race.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
But East Redmond has always been at war with Cupertino-Oceania
Interesting that they still maintain more than 90% marketshare worldwide with that "wrong strategy", though. Despite the horridness of Vista, people *still* appreciate being able to use their older apps on their newer PCs, who would've thought.
According to Net Applications since this tyme last year Microsoft has slipped in market share while Apple has gained some. It was only in January when MS started gaining again, to 88.42 percent. Also of Windows users "about 64 percent, are still using XP while about 23 percent have upgraded to Vista."
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Then the iPod came out and the US consumer bent over for vendor lock-in.
I hear or see this a lot but haven't got an answer to my question, perhaps you can answer. What is this lock-in Apple has with the iPod?
True, at least in the US market. Americans still think $0.25/text message is a fair price.
Is this charge for text messages for sending, receiving, or both? I never send text but sometimes I receive text ads.
So, you're willing to pay more money to their brand because you feel their company has done right by you and/or society?
I paid less when I got my MacBook Pro than I would have paid for a Dell. And since I switched I've paid a lot less in grief as I have never had my computer or OS crash since switching.
Archos was years ahead of Windows Mobile, and should've taken the spot Apple did to lead the market. Unfortunately, Archos has no recognizable marketing skills.
That's how I feel about Commodore International and the Amiga. Commodore screwed the marketing for the Amiga.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Steam games
Okay, games are a weakness for Macs though there are a lot that run on them. What I find ironic is that I run into people who think Macs are only good for games.
Decent Amateur radio software and no, the software listed on http://www.machamradio.com/ is not good enough.
What about the DXZone? Things may of changed since then but years ago I knew hams who swore by Macs. I wanted to get my license myself but I had a hard tyme with Morse Code.
x11 that supports drag and drop properly, so I can use x11 applications as they should be used.
I've tried two X11 apps, CinePaint and Fink or MacPorts but I couldn't get either one to work. I may install Ubuntu on my Mac, in which case I can run CinePaint in it and use Synaptic as well as other methods to install software.
Have you checked out CNR, ClickNRun?
Stuff like fink, macports which isn't hopelessly broken
Did you try both at the same tyme? I read where you should use one OR the other as they don't play well together.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
CAD software is almost non-existent on OSX
While Autodesk doesn't release AutoCAD for Macs, I believe architosh would disagree about CAD software being non-existent for OS X.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Oh the horrors of having multiple hundreds of models and configurations to choose from!
The hard part, not really hard unless you miss some but tyme consuming, is looking in a bunch of places to find the right one. If all the laptops were in one place and were easy to compare it wouldn't be a problem.
Back when you bought yours the Air didn't existed, it was released around that time frame thought, maybe 15 months ago or something like that.
The Air was released a few months later, so it was even easier to compare Mac laptop models.
you have to get the Macbook Pro to get decent graphics but whatever mac you get the low-end model will always be crippled and the one "you want" is probably the mid model but it will cost at a much higher price decreasing the value even more (and forcing you to get options you don't need or want.)
No, I wanted the top of the line, I got it for graphics and development. And if I had gotten a laptop other than a Mac I would have had to get something I didn't want Windows. I don't like it when a company treats me like a criminal. The only other option was a laptop with Linux preinstalled, however I know of no place locally I could take it if I have a problem with it. I'm also not a Linux guru and wouldn't know how to install something like Photoshop.
I don't see how you can see choice as a problem, the more alternatives to higher chance you find something which suits you at a decent cost.
I love choices, what I don't like is having to jump all over the place to compare models.
Let me guess that you've put a lot of optionals into that one? Look at base systems, and Dell isn't the only PC manufacture out there, also if you look at Dell only buy something with a price cut / value add-on.
Before I got my MacBook Pro I checked out several difference laptops from different companies, not just Dell.
" Studio XPS 16
As the name implies the Studio XPS 16 has a 16" display, I wanted as big a display as I could get. I've only ever seen one laptop with a bigger display that 17", a 21" laptop with Windows preinstalled, but like I said above I hate being treated like a criminal when I patronize a business. And that's what Microsoft does.
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium Edition SP1, 64-bit
Edge-to-Edge FullHD Widescreen 16.0 inch RGBLED LCD (1920x1080) W/2.0 MP
See above.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
At least MS issues patches when they fix it
What is Patch Tuesday then?
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I priced up the same spec machine (MacPro) on the Dell website and funny enough the Dell equivalent of a MacPro is over $1000 more expensive. Add that to the fact that Microsoft's Vista is a complete pile of rubbish and you have a win win for the mac.
Do your homework and compare 'Apples with Apples' and you will be pleasantly surprised!
on Apple.
I'd like to congratulate everyone who moderated the parent flamebait. Clearly, because they pointed out the inflammatory nature of the article by saying their post could be considered flamebait in response, it must have been. Well thought out guys, well done!
Rearrange the letters in "Steven Anthony Ballmer" and you get "horny navel stamen belt".
In the 1980s, Apple users would berate Amiga users and claim Apples were technically superior. They weren't.
Apple's business model is based on selling high-priced computers with the illusion that they are better-engineered or their interface makes them more enlightened.
Real world gains are few.
As a result, Apple users turn to a cognitive dissonance fueled religion of Apple superiority: it's the computer for artists, Progressives, free thinkers, etc.
Consequently, they're not much fun to be around and the computer has a slow, super-simplified interface that makes common tasks easy for morons but complicated tasks annoying for non-morons.
Summary: Apple shout eat 10,000 dicks and jump in a woodchipper.
Futurist Traditionalism
So every time I buy a new computer I have to buy a new monitor, keyboard, mouse, speakers, headset, USB powered missile launcher?
The only time I want a computer to come with all those things is when I buy a laptop, and frankly I don't want the headset, mouse or USB devices with that either.
I save the cost on antivirus...
Probably more than 500$...
And he's right about the hardware costing loads of extra cash.
Perhaps, but he is definitely not right about the 'same piece of hardware'. The magnetic power connector, LEDs indicating battery charge level, beautiful design, low noise,... and that's the hardware.
With the OS comes iLife with some nice apps out of the box for the non-techies.
Still, I prefer my Ubuntu on some commodity hardware...
The Simpsons already did it in Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?
Didn't work out well.
He also said the iPhone would be a flop.
EVERYBODY...Get some data. Use statistics. Gamers, businesses, e-mailers, surfers, hobbyists, etc all have different weightings for their various needs. It is just dumb (although I 'spose it can be fun) to spout your own anecdotal evidence as if your needs are the most common - when you know they are not! Now for my anecdote ;-) I am an engineer - I work with Windows at work. The company needs to sell to people who use it. I put my mother-in-law on Linux with KDE (inexpensive) - after nightmarish maintenance problems with Windows. She's a very light user, doesn't even have the root password. I have an iMac at home, also low maintenance - looks good upstairs, attention to detail in all aspects including recyclability. Recyclability is important (to all of us) because if you buy a new PC most of the stuff in it seems to need upgrading around the same time-which is more expensive than a new one.
Using anything with the Mac logo feels like driving a Mercedes Benz. Using anything with Windows logo feels like driving a Hyundai. Does this different feeling worth a few hundred dollars? Absolutely, every penny of it. So, what car do you drive, Mr. Ballmer? Why are you trying to sell us the Hyundai, then, pretending that it's a Mercedes?
you can install IE on Linux.
Not in the United States (home of Slashdot) and other countries whose courts have upheld end user license agreements for packaged software. IE comes with a "supplemental EULA" to the effect: "NOTE: If you do not have a valid EULA for a Corresponding OS Product, you are not authorized to install, copy, or otherwise, use the OS Components and you have no rights under this Supplemental EULA. Corresponding OS Products are limited to Windows XP and Windows Vista."
Isn't he down to developers, developers? They just laid off a bunch.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Actually, Apple Support regularly kicks the crap out of PC companies in customer satisfaction surveys.
Boom Shanka
Ballmer is a first class troll, and we all know it. It has nothing to do with price comparisons, what works better or not, or any other thing like that. 100% trolling.
Please stop feeding the trolls...
ahaha, looks like balmer really believes windows is as usable and stable as os x.
poor guy :D
Yes we all agree, Ballmer said something stupid. And we then think "he is stupid".
Maybe not.
What's the goal of this Ballmer speech? Obviously, it's been said here, that's not to get Apple fans back to ms-windows.
I think the goal is to keep on ms-windows those who have no clue at what really is Mac OS X. microsoft users hear 2 things:
1. Apple is growing, nice, hype, etc. but costs more, hence it must be better than windows!
2. now they have the REAL reason from Ballmer: that's just to get a nice logo. Great, they can stick to windows and stop worrying about that.
The audience target is not Apple fans, but microsoft users. Ballmer knows he is wrong. But the goal is to fool and keep ms-windows users.
Maybe Apple has higher quality and better engineering, but it will be obsolete in 6 months anyways. You can buy two Laptops in an 18 month period for the price of 1 Apple. I guess all that extra quality is fine if you want to keep the same machine for a long time, but computing is planned obsolescence.
I dual boot Vista 64 ultra and Ubuntu on my desktop, and I do not have a problem with either OS. The secret to running Windows flawlessly is using an imaging program like True Image. Virus, Hard Drive failure, and a screwed up program installation can all be fixed in 15 minutes with an image restore. I have never had a virus anyways, because they are difficult to get and the fear is heightened by antivirus companies. To avoid viruses, just simply use Firefox and NoScript and you can pick and choose what scripts are executed.
You learn something new everyday!
You are confusing value, with cost. By your reasoning, Linux has no value.
Yes, it is perhaps surprising and nice to hear that Microsoft agree that cost isn't the same as value. Perhaps they aren't as bad as some people make them out to be.
You'd think that people would welcome Microsoft saying that software doesn't have to be expensive - but because they're criticising Apple, that's automatically seen as bad here on Slashdot.
with a Core 2 Duo T9400
Is it 2.53GHz? The MBP comes with a 2.66GHz cpu.
15" matte 1440x900 display
Because I plan to do graphics and photography I'd prefer a larger display and higher resolution. Now if a larger and higher res screen isn't needed or wanted then there's no use getting them.
a 200 GB, 7200 RPM hard-drive
I replaced the 160 GB, 7200 RPM hard drive with a 320 GB 27200 RPM drive, which was the biggest I could find for the MBP. When I got it 160 GB was the biggest HDD that was 7200 RPM.
and Vista Bussiness (I use Windows for games
I neither play games nor want MS Windows.
At the time, a MacBook Pro with a similar configuration had a cost of 2500 euros. Now, this was in Spain, I have heard that in USA macs are cheaper.
I don't know about prices in Spain and you may be right that Macs are more expensive there.
PS: about having a big screen and HDD... I have it plugged to an external 22" display and a 500 GB eSATA drive. Plenty of space.
I've been looking for a larger external monitor, I'd prefer at least a 24". Unfortunately I haven't found anyplace around where I live that carries good ones. A lot of people order or say to order online but I want to look and test before I buy and I want someplace local I can take it to if I have a problem. As for storage, I have two external drive. I have a 500GB USB 2 and a 750 GB Firewire 800 drive. However I got a laptop because I want to be able to take it with me and even if I have a USB or Firewire powered HDD the batteries would not last long. I love hiking and got a second battery but still that's not much power to last while hiking. Maybe I could carry more batteries but I've rather carry more camera equipment. I want to shoot both digital and film.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
What I find ironic is that I run into people who think Macs are only good for games.
That's a first for me.
I haven't heard it lately but I used to hear people say a Mac was only good for playing with. Perhaps Apple marketing has let people know Macs can do more.
What about the DXZone?
Nothing much different there unfortunately.
Sorry.
There are always those who swear by a particular platform, I will say the log book software available for Macs is pretty good... (But I use a spreadsheet anyway). When it comes to the other amateur radio applications -- not so great.
I agree some swear by different platforms. I get riled and carried away myself when I hear or read people say they need Windows because they have to be able to run MS Office or something else not realizing Office is available for OS X and there are other apps that can do the same for both Linux and OS X. But I try to keep in mnd a person should get a platform based on what they need to do and not on specific software.
I wanted to get my license myself but I had a hard tyme with Morse Code.
Fortunately, the morsecode requirement has been recently dropped in the UK and USA.
I heard Morse Code was dropped but I couldn't confirm it. Was the requirement that you design and build your own transceiver dropped too? Though it's been many years and my memory is bad I'm pretty sure I can relearn the electronics.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Well not just Apple all the point apply just as well to the premium Windows OEMs They are all charging extra for a brand name or the point of difference attached to the brand name.
"Call us when the New age is old enough to drink" Beck
A similar thing happened to my coworker. His hard drive failed 2 months out of warranty. Apple replaced it entirely free, no charge for parts or labor. He was able to pick it up within 24 hours of dropping it off.
My coworker had a laptop from Toshiba which failed 2 days after purchase, it took 2 weeks to replace the hard drive.
This issue went away in 10.0. The point of my post earlier was the person was saying XP was the equivalent of OS X 10.0, by the points I mentioned above, the stability, breakage in OS X 10.0 does not really compare well to XP at all.
I'm not sure if you mean 10.0 or XP was more stable but my point was that the first tyme I booted up XP it froze and I don't call that stable.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Was the requirement that you design and build your own transceiver dropped too?
Actually, that's to do with building some kind of device, you can't build a transceiver, because you're not licensed to use it, so you can't test it
A friend of mine and I built one, well not really a transceiver but a receiver, we left out the transmitter.
With what seems like everything else, I wonder if shortwave radios are also moving to digital broadcasting.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Well not just Apple all the point apply just as well to the premium Windows OEMs They are all charging extra for a brand name or the point of difference attached to the brand name.
Apple was singled out in the post I replied to, GP didn't say anything about any other computer maker.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Ballmer wants the world to focus on the idea that the desktop fight is only between M$ and Apple. If he can do that then, perhaps (please -- hopefully), that people will not start using a Linux desktop. ...but not for that reason. Ballmer needs Apple to keep Microsoft from being broken up in another anti-trust lawsuit. Linux has made great inroads in server space and on devices - as a desktop OS, not so much.
Oh no doubt there's people who really really like Apple's hardware, or who buy it for the logo, but most people are more interested in software that actually doesn't suck.
While it is very simple to hate Ballmer and everything he says and does, I can't help but see where he is coming from. Most people who I know who use macs are hardly competent users, mostly just artsy tools who carry their laptops under their arms like a book rather than in their bags, I'm guessing to show off the fact that "I have a mac, I'm different, look at me."
"A claim for equality of material position can be met only by a government with totalitarian powers." Hayek
Photoshop is a PITA to get working in Linux. I've got CS4 running in WINE, but Bridge still crashes.
I've got XP in a VirtualBox VM that I use for those programs. Its a tiny bit slower, but its not enough to make me want to switch back to Vista.
Learn about Photography Basics.
I'm not locked into a single hardware vender [sic]. In January I replaced my HDD with a larger one that does not have the Apple brand on it anywhere. I can also put more RAM into it that's not from Apple.
You're not locked into a single aftermarket vendor, no. But if you want a Mac, you're locked into buying that (both operating system and "base" computer) from Apple.
Have to use Windows as the Mac does not have enough power at the high end.
(Of course fanbois are CAPTCHA of this )
Will no one mod this flamebait? Me my father and my brother are all programmers and we have used Macs since they were invented. While they were not always a good programming platform, I think that the languages and environments available are great. I know all the linux heads out there love vi and emacs and pico etc. And I think they are ok for certain things but BBedit sure is a damn site better than anything I have used on a PC.
Dude's buying a laptop. He already doesn't care how badly he's getting screwed over parts, and the laptop PC vendors don't treat you any better.
The point isn't what machine you get today. The point is that if, in 5 years' time, you decide you want a new laptop, but didn't like the make of the last one, you can't change laptop manufacturer while still sticking with a Mac, whereas you have plenty of choice with a PC. Mind you, I recently bought a MacBook Pro because I was quite happy with the iBook I used through college -- but I made that decision knowing full well that there's some inconvenience in my future if I decide to steer away from the Macs, rather than sticking my head in the sand and pretending I have loads of choice within that platform
.
Bite out of apple sales.
Apple might still make the coolest computers on the block but it is struggling in the face of global recession as consumers opt for cheaper alternatives. Mac sales fell 16 per cent year-on-year in February, according to research firm NPD Group. Sales of PCs, meanwhile, increased 22 per cent in the same period thanks to a boost in sales of cheap, lightweight notebooks.
So Ballmer is correct.
I've got CS4 running in WINE
I'd like to get CS4 but before I spend the money on it I want to try CinePaint first. Since I didn't get the Mac version, which requires X11 and isn't a native Mac port, to work I'm thinking of installing Ubuntu on my Mac so I can try it out. I'd also like a book on it but I haven't found one. Googling for tutorials doesn't produce any tutorials on using CinePaint, something like half of the webpages I visited were on GIMP.
I've got XP in a VirtualBox VM
If I install Ubuntu on my Mac it will be as a dualboot system. I'll then install VM software in both Leopard and Ubuntu so I can run one OS when I boot into the other. I know Parallels and VMWare can do this, but I don't know if VirtualBox can. I read it was planned but not ready yet.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
You're not locked into a single aftermarket vendor, no. But if you want a Mac, you're locked into buying that (both operating system and "base" computer) from Apple.
When I bought my HP, if I had wanted Linux I would have had to make a special order, directly from HP. So I bought an HP off the shelf, along with another graphics card and HDD to make it a dual head, dualboot system. Only afterwards did I find out it was not compatible with Linux. And HP was trumpeting about how Linux friendly they were.
I can and may install Ubuntu on my Mac as well.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
There a countries where you can buy "Windows XP Procorporate Edition" as it is called there at any street corner. And great value for money they are as they don't need on-line or phone in activation and update works fine. Just don't install WGA.
You're going to pay a lot more for the laptop in the first place.
Macs and PCs are equivalent. They're the same hardware. You're not paying (much) more for the same product, you're herded into buying more than you need because you can't avail yourself of the market to get the product that suites you.
Bite out of apple sales
Apple might still make the coolest computers on the block but it is struggling in the face of global recession as consumers opt for cheaper alternatives. Mac sales fell 16 per cent year-on-year in February, according to research firm NPD Group. Sales of PCs, meanwhile, increased 22 per cent in the same period thanks to a boost in sales of cheap, lightweight notebooks.
This was written by a newspaper which does not have an IT section but an ill-informed apple fanboi one.
Why don't you learn something, like reading comprehension?
I was using the term "pro" for cards capable of doing 3D for quality and use pro 3D apps vs 3D for speed in games.
As part of comprehension, can you put out where I said anything about speed or gaming?
And I've already said in this thread that the cards usually could be upgraded to the "pro"/quatro version since it was the same GPUs but sold for different markets and that they was marked up in price a lot due to that. And that your laptop price comparison didn't made much sense because of that since the Quatro cards are overpriced.
You did say Bullshit, you didn't knew what I meant in the first place, the Macbook Pro DON'T have a Quadro card but it's still just fine for your purpose. As I posted people say the GeForce and Quatro cards are the same. They may be wrong but if so can you cite where they are not?
In any case it's useless discussing it with you since you will always be focused on your opinion/bias and want to interpret things in ways which suits you.
Yeah it's a waste of tyme discussing this with you, because of your bias not mine. I've provided links to back up what I say but all you do is talk without backing it up. If you can't use reason I see no reason to continue.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
A great company touts what they do to make themselves great. All Ballmer can do is criticize others.
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I do support Linux.
I find it sad that on a site where open systems such as Linux are loved over Microsoft, Apple seem to be loved fanatically over Linux
I do like Linux but I prefer Macs. My favorite hardware/OS though was the Amiga.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Good for what though? Different uses have different requirements.
try to get a mac with the specs the PC has, which most often is useless and impossible since the configuration options are so limited)
Oh, I agree. As I've said repeatedly I wish Apple would develop more lines of computers, such as a mid tower that's expandable but only costs half what the Mac Pro does. For whatever reason Steve Jobs doesn't want to make systems for markets that would like something like this, which I think is wrong.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
But what is it about the Mac that enables bbedit? What is Windows/Linux/OS/2/whatever missing that prevents bbedit from being ported?
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They could be shooting themselves into the foot by talking about price.
Along the same lines, we can say that Windows is another $300 logo.
Cost-conscious customers can just use Linux instead and get the same work done.
And more and more already are...
It is not surprising that Balmer has de-valued the operating system component of computers since Microsoft has failed to release an acceptable operating system in almost a decade. I believe the operating system is far more important than minor hardware differences, which is worth paying extra. Apple consumers pay to get the whole Apple package, including OS X which out-performs Windows OS's at every turn, is far easier to use and requires minimal maintenance. Furthermore, Apple charges far less than Microsoft for their client or server operating systems when sold separately, and Apple software is generally cheaper to purchase. Not needing to deal with Vista or XP is definitely worth paying $500 extra.