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The swastika is a basic shape also. If Trump had included that in a tweet, would you defend that as well?

Which swastika are you talking about? I guess context matters doesn't it? If he posted a swastika in the context of Buddhism, Hinduism, or Jainism I wouldn't think much of it and if someone called it racist I would defend it because it is not racist. Context is king.

Also, define "basic". I would argue a hexagram is more "basic" than a 20 sided polygon whose meaning changes on context. You also seem to ignore the facts that surround the Star of David. Specifically, from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs: "Unlike the menorah, the Lion of Judah, the shofar and the lulav, the Star of David was never a uniquely Jewish symbol." (found from Wikipedia). Further, if you use image editing software most will come with a default hexagram while none come with a swastika (check your MS Paint). You have to be much more deliberate to have a swastika rather than a shape that is nearly universal in basic constructs for image editing.

The fact is, certain shapes can and do have connotations, especially in the context of politics. Trump probably didn't realize the connotation carried by that shape (placed in front of a pile of money, no less!) when he forwarded the image, because he's so politically naive; but the symbolism wasn't lost on the public.

The fact is your "fact" changes on context, isn't unique to Jewish tradition, and comes as a default for image editing software (because it is a common shape). That is shitty grounds to stand on to claim anti-Semitism.

The image was created by @FishBoneHead1, who is quite clearly an anti-Semite [twitter.com]. You can play lawyer-ball and claim that it's possible that he just chose that shape at random, but it doesn't pass the smell test, and Trump should have known better than to repost it.

Oh, so now it is who created as opposed to where it came from like all the articles that like to say "came from an anti-Semitic website", those moving goals. If the goal was to be racist from @FishBOneHead1 I find it pretty weak. Just because you want to poison the well and have guilt by association does not mean that the intent from Trump was to be anti-Semitic. You are the one taking offense. Trump is not trying to be a subtle anti-Semite. That is retarded.

Trump should have known better than to repost it.

No, because he saw it as a hit against Clinton not a piece for Antisemitism. He didn't see Antisemitism because it is not anti-Semitic if you just take a moment to think about it. Just because you take offense does not mean that the subject matter is offensive.

Politics aside, please note that the "Jewish" in "Jewish state" is not the religion. Israel is, by and large, a secular state. The Jewish term refers to the Jewish people. From the opening to Israel's declaration of independence:

ERETZ-ISRAEL [(Hebrew) - the Land of Israel, Palestine] was the birthplace of the Jewish people.

(emphasis mine)

Later on, it lists the founding principles for the state:

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

So, first sentence ensures that any Jew can immigrate. Second sentence ensure equality to everyone. Third sentence tries to make sure that there is no "official state religion".

The Orthodox Jews in Israel do get a lot of power, but this is not a result of the definition of the state. It is simply a result of internal politics. By and large, in actual practice, Israel's every day life is secular for people who so choose to live their lives.

Shachar

Yo Dude,

There's a PA Mufti who seems to disagree with you; he takes this Gharqad tree business literally (check out the last sentence of his).

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian_incitement/PA_Mufti_encourages_killing_Jews_9-Jan-2012.htm?DisplayMode=print

PA Mufti Muhammad Hussein:

"47 years ago the [Fatah] revolution started. Which revolution? The modern revolution of the Palestinian people's history. In fact, Palestine in its entirety is a revolution, since [Caliph] Umar came [to conquer Jerusalem in 637 CE], and continuing today, and until the End of Days.

The reliable Hadith (tradition attributed to Muhammad), [found] in the two reliable collections, Bukhari and Muslim, says:

The Hour [of Resurrection] will not come until you fight the Jews.
The Jew will hide behind stones or trees.
Then the stones or trees will call:
'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'
Except the Gharqad tree [which will keep silent].

Therefore it is no wonder that you see Gharqad [trees] surrounding the [Israeli] settlements and colonies..."

So, Dude, how about you ring up Mr. Mufti and 'splain the whole metaphor thing to him, like? Or text him, whatever. And see if he can sync it all up with Hamas so they're on the same page. Kewl. KThx Dude.

Of course at the same time, we need to have "Come home to Moses" talk with Israel about changing their stance to one of causing peace in the Middle East instead of undermining it.

Seriously? You blame Israel for the lack of peace in the Middle East? The amount of provocation from the Palestinians that you are ignoring is staggering.

There are so many brilliant Israeli people, who want an end to hostility, and are more than willing to work out coexistence. The ongoing growth of illegal settlements only destroy options and nail the future to rails that lead to inevitable violence and ultimately the genocide of Palestine. Certainly there must be a better answer.

How about if the Palestinians stop firing rockets and mortars at Israeli civilians almost every day? That might help peace. How about if the Palestinians stop murdering children in their own homes and then celebrating the murderers? That might help peace.
The Palestinians were shown the route to peace, the route that would have stopped the settlements, the route to their own state. They have so far chosen not to take it.

Don't give me any of that recycled, dumbed down bullshit you hand to everyone else. You're either too unethical to care or too dumb to know that you're full of shit.

Palestinian has always meant people who lived in Palestine. There are Palestinians who are not Muslim or Arab. Here's an article from 1903 about establishing a Jewish state in Palestine, and bringing Zionism to Jerusalem. Here's a link to 1200 newspaper references to "palestinian refugee" before 1966. Here's a link to an article written in 1868 that refers to the land of Palestine.

What "provocative actions in Lebanon"? Monitoring Hezbollah's violations of the UN resolution that prevents it from operating in south Lebanon?

In June 2005, an Israel Defence Force paratroop unit operating near the Shebaa Farms engaged three Lebanese it identified as Hezbollah special force members, killing one. Videotapes recovered by the paratroopers contained footage of the three recording detailed accounts of the area and "fooling around".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War

Keep in mind, this is fooling around on land that Israel took by force in 1967. There's a reason it's still disputed.

Israel handles its water problems by efficient irrigation and water desalination (which in both it is a world leader) much better than any country in the region, and willingly shares its knowledge and expertise. Trying to blame it for the world's problems is nothing new.

Israel has fucked up it's water supply. Do you know who I learned that from? The Israeli government.

...current cumulative deficit in Israel's renewable water resources amounts to approximately 2 billion cubic meters, an amount equal to the annual consumption of the State. The deficit has also lead to the qualitative deterioration of potable aquifer water resources that have, in part, become either of brackish quality or otherwise become polluted... ...policy for the water sector, particularly in the past decade, combined with the absence of adequate action facing the impending water shortage situation, has contributed to the severity of the present crisis...

The agricultural sector has suffered most because of the crisis. Due to the shortage, water allocations to the sector had to be reduced drastically causing a reduction in the agricultural productivity.

The current crisis has led to the realization that a master plan for policy, institutional and operational changes is required to stabilize the situation and to improve Israel's water balance with a long-term perspective.

That report was from 2002. Recently the Jerusalem Post had this to say: "We are witnessing an incomprehensible ongoing failure to conserve existing resources."

LOL, I knew you would give a response like that... that's why I put "*wink*" there.

If you want to get into FACTUAL and CREDIBLE sources, since the letter didn't actually come from Stormfront (they just had a copy of it and I posted their link *LOL*). Actually, I never knew what Stormfront was nor heard of the site until 'I was hunted down' for being neither pro-Israel nor pro-Iran!

But since you said that, here are the FACTS:
The official Hasbara handbook: http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf
You can read about it here: http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2007/01/13/p13653
Article "Israel's newest PR weapon: The Internet Megaphone": http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378505678&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull
(which is one of many source that verifies the copy of the letter above)

And, you can find links to GIYUS on the ISRAEL'S GOVERNMENT'S OFFICIAL WEBSITE: http://abuja.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/main/missionhome.asp?MissionID=20397&

Do I need to post more to show you how easy it would have been to google it before you accuse me of such 'lost all factual and moral credibility'??? Sheesh, I could have posted a link to a different site than Stormfront, but it wouldn't be as *cough* funny!

What's different between the Iranian regime going after Muslims.... and GIYUS (and gov) going after Muslims? GIYUS makes the Iranian government look like the wannabe-activists!

I searched pretty heavily for evidence of Hamas forcing people to be human shields but couldn't find any. However, I did find recordings of the Hamas operated television station in Gaza calling for people to rush to a house to protect it. Even the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs confirms this. Certainly, if Israel had evidence of forced human shields it would be eagerly showing it to everyone but all of the evidence on that page is calls for people to voluntarily be human shields.

Mmm, well

In the State of Israel, which was founded on May 14, 1948, as in other democratic states, the democratic rule is rooted in the following principles and institutions: basic laws which lay down the order of government and of the citizens' rights; the holding of elections to the house of representatives and to municipal councils every few years, following which, a central government and local authorities are set up, based on the principle of the rule of the majority, with the rights of the minority guaranteed by law; the principle of the separation between the legislative branch, the executive branch, and the judiciary, to which the institution of state control has been added; freedom of the press.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Branches%20of%20Government/Executive/Israeli%20Democracy%20-%20How%20does%20it%20work/

... he was trained by Hamas in order to assassinate a senior Israeli official visiting the US and to attack members of the US and Canadian Jewish communities. Hamas-trained terrorist, Canadian national, arrested by ISA

One of those charged -- an Edmonton, Alberta, man who used the screen name "Big_Daddy619" -- allegedly distributed live videos of himself molesting the four children younger than 12. 27 charged in child porn sting

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/facts%20about%20israel/e conomy/focus%20on%20israel-%20israel-s%20agricultu re%20in%20the%2021st

For being in the middle of a freaking desert, Israel doesn't do too bad for itself -- 70% of the way to self sufficiency on food, with the remainder being a mix of luxury (coffee, spices), fish (hard to plant the suckers), and bulk grains that its cheaper to just buy from the US than to use valuable growing space on. It would be higher if it weren't for the nigh-constant state of armed conflict they find themselves in. If we could bring Africa up to the Israeli standard, we'd be pretty much done on the whole hunger problem in a stroke.

>>
It will not confer the basic, amply demonstrated civilizational competencies of East Asians or Caucasians onto Black Africans.
>>

When Lincoln was fighting a war to free the slaves Japan was a medieval country populated by what were essentially fractious tribes under the sporadic and largely ineffectual rule of a central monarch. Visiting Europeans described them as shiftless and absolutely incapable of basic civilizational norms such as punctuality. I wonder what those visiting Europeans would say if you said "By the way, you won't live to see it, but your great-great-grandkids will get all many of their toys from Japan, their economy will be bigger than any European country's, and they'll be widely considered to be fanatical workaholic clones." I wonder what our great-great-grandkids will get from Africa.

>>
And what exactly do you mean by capitalism? Rule of law? Property rights? Trading of goods? How is any of that going to help?
>>

All of the above and then some. Having property rights encourages you to invest in your farm, because you know that if you're good at it it will make you money some day... and NOT get taken by the guy who happens to have more guns than you at the moment. Rule of law means that you can plant crops today and have a reasonable expectation of living long enough to see the harvest, too.

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

"I think their terrrorist-to-civilian kill rate was lower than the military-to-civilian kill rate of their enemies. Sorry for the lack of citations on this part, but it's hard to track down these numbers."

You are 100% correct and the numbers are not even close.

According to the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs the ration for Israelis killed is 43 civilians / 119 military

For Lebanon , Hizballah claims it lost 74 combatant and Israel claims the number is closer to 500.
I will use the numbbers ussued by Israel.

The total number of Lebanese killed was untill a few days ago between 1,300 and 1,600 (the number keeps going up as more bodies are pulled from the ruble).

So working by Israel's claims their kill ratio is around 1000 civilian / 500 military.

Of course at this point some people start claiming it is the intentions that matter and not the number of civilians killed ...

Britain reneged on their earlier commitment to Israel-- when they had already reserved the lion's share of the land to Arab peoples in what is now known as Jordan-- and diced up what was left into a nearly indefensible "gerrymander" of plots. All fine and good, until Israel was immediately attacked for daring to declare their independence.

The parent poster may be a demented freak, but then again, the Israeli MFA site seems to support his facts:

I'll get excited when I see the collective realization that just the technology we currently have enables the defeat of many entrenched, obsolete social constructs.

It's the withering away of the state; Lenin forsaw it but mistook it. It turns marxism and capitalism both ass-over-teakettle.

Why not use these techniques to defeat fearful democratic and republican governments, as well? They are equally egregious, just the authoritarian regimes are less duplicitous and a damn sight rougher.

Negotiations? Are you kidding? In July 2000 at Camp David, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered Arafat unprecedented offers - basically everything he could ask for, all the territories and a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital. Arafat said no and at that point [1] decided to start the current war (no, it's not an "Intifada") in October later that year. Who do you want Israel to negotiate with now?

And do you have any better suggestions as to how Israel should wage its war on terror? Don't start telling me anything about leaving the occupied territories, as Palestinian terror existed [2] long before Israel occupied any of the land currently under dispute.

[1] and here.

[2]

You do realize that solar cells, and wind farms aren't the only way to convert solar power to energy?

No, actually I hadn't realized this, but thanks for bringing my attention to it.

For others interested, a site that explains what I'm assuming parent was referring to on the Israeli Ministry of FA page.

Some interesting concepts, as I said before, I look forward to them being developed and implemented.

Wow... I didn't know a 1Gig mail tidbit could make a self-proclaimed geek community lash out with such blatant hatred.

But since it's out there...

I'll make it short,

200 years ago, Jews are scattered throughout Europe, banned from all guilds, Jews are forced to practice trade and commerce.

100 years ago, Jews are thriving, strangely enough relentless persecution follows, the sought after euphoric notion of coexistence diminishes. MY ancestors seek sanctuary.

50 years ago, Jews have been slaughtered by the millions, NO MORE!

MY forefathers built me a HOME, Israel.
Putting aside the biblical records of Jewish settlements; legitimately occupying a 470 Kilometers strip of land (Size) is crucial to our survival and sovereignty.
I am 23 years old, I've volunteered 4 years of my life to DEFEND my only HOME, just like my father, and my grandfather before him, have we not done so, Israel would have been bereft of its existence. (Israeli wars)
I spent my first 2 years in the army learning how to dismantle and operate an assault rifle in a heartbeat, walk 50 miles packing 100 pounds of gear, and adhere to the strictest rules of ethical conduct. I spent the rest of my service operating indigenous strategic positioning and command systems (Westwood beware).

I'd much rather have spent my best years partying in college...

But I was left with no choice; we've learned our lesson, Jews must fend for themselves, unwillingly we have to relay a strong message to the world:

You don't FUCK with Israel.

Our survival depends on it. (Green=Foe)

Fact is the average suicide bombing in Israel kills more legitimate targets relative to innocent victims than the average allied bombing in WWII did.

Look at that one the other day, IDF soldiers made up 100% of the fatalities. Or look at those bus rammings by IJ, both those buses were full of soldiers.

One just has tp peruse the Israeli Ministry of foreign Affairs website to see that the Western allies were a lot more indiscriminate than Hamas, IJ or the AAM:-

Megiddo junction, 5-6-2, 13 out of 17 dead are soldiers
Meron junction, 4-8-2, 3 out of 9 dead were soldiers
Karkur junction, 21-10-2, 8 out 14 dead are soldiers
Tzrifin roadstop, 9-9-3, all 9 dead were soldiers

Of course there were bombings where only 1 or 2 of the fatalities were legimate targets, like this one, where one 1 (out of the 10 dead) was a legitmate target but even so, odds on Britain's 'thousand bomber' raids over Germany & the US incendary & nuclear raids on Japan, still had a much larger collateral damage to legitimate target rate (& that's not even taking into account the high rate of reservists in Israel)

Fact is the average suicide bombing in Israel kills more legitimate targets relative to innocent victims than the average allied bombing in WWII did.

Look at that one the other day, IDF soldiers made up 100% of the fatalities. Or look at those bus rammings by IJ, both those buses were full of soldiers.

One just has tp peruse the Israeli Ministry of foreign Affairs website to see that the Western allies were a lot more indiscriminate than Hamas, IJ or the AAM:-

Megiddo junction, 5-6-2, 13 out of 17 dead are soldiers
Meron junction, 4-8-2, 3 out of 9 dead were soldiers
Karkur junction, 21-10-2, 8 out 14 dead are soldiers
Tzrifin roadstop, 9-9-3, all 9 dead were soldiers

Of course there were bombings where only 1 or 2 of the fatalities were legimate targets, like this one, where one 1 (out of the 10 dead) was a legitmate target but even so, odds on Britain's 'thousand bomber' raids over Germany & the US incendary & nuclear raids on Japan, still had a much larger collateral damage to legitimate target rate (& that's not even taking into account the high rate of reservists in Israel)

Fact is the average suicide bombing in Israel kills more legitimate targets relative to innocent victims than the average allied bombing in WWII did.

Look at that one the other day, IDF soldiers made up 100% of the fatalities. Or look at those bus rammings by IJ, both those buses were full of soldiers.

One just has tp peruse the Israeli Ministry of foreign Affairs website to see that the Western allies were a lot more indiscriminate than Hamas, IJ or the AAM:-

Megiddo junction, 5-6-2, 13 out of 17 dead are soldiers
Meron junction, 4-8-2, 3 out of 9 dead were soldiers
Karkur junction, 21-10-2, 8 out 14 dead are soldiers
Tzrifin roadstop, 9-9-3, all 9 dead were soldiers

Of course there were bombings where only 1 or 2 of the fatalities were legimate targets, like this one, where one 1 (out of the 10 dead) was a legitmate target but even so, odds on Britain's 'thousand bomber' raids over Germany & the US incendary & nuclear raids on Japan, still had a much larger collateral damage to legitimate target rate (& that's not even taking into account the high rate of reservists in Israel)

Fact is the average suicide bombing in Israel kills more legitimate targets relative to innocent victims than the average allied bombing in WWII did.

Look at that one the other day, IDF soldiers made up 100% of the fatalities. Or look at those bus rammings by IJ, both those buses were full of soldiers.

One just has tp peruse the Israeli Ministry of foreign Affairs website to see that the Western allies were a lot more indiscriminate than Hamas, IJ or the AAM:-

Megiddo junction, 5-6-2, 13 out of 17 dead are soldiers
Meron junction, 4-8-2, 3 out of 9 dead were soldiers
Karkur junction, 21-10-2, 8 out 14 dead are soldiers
Tzrifin roadstop, 9-9-3, all 9 dead were soldiers

Of course there were bombings where only 1 or 2 of the fatalities were legimate targets, like this one, where one 1 (out of the 10 dead) was a legitmate target but even so, odds on Britain's 'thousand bomber' raids over Germany & the US incendary & nuclear raids on Japan, still had a much larger collateral damage to legitimate target rate (& that's not even taking into account the high rate of reservists in Israel)

Also, FrontPage Magazine has some good archived articles about Israel and the Palestinians.

Check your history again :)

Might it have something to do with the land that they were given was at the time brittish territory?

Under the condition that the "non-Jewish" people would not be subject to civil or religious prejudice. When the Arab citizens of Israel (who make up about 20% of the *official citizenry* today, and that percentage is growing) are generally forbidden from buying land in most of the country despite the Israeli supreme court's rulings on the subject?

Souce: Balfour Delaration

Then 6 other nations decided they didn't like that and invaded.

The 1947 UN-defined lines had Jerusalem as a neutral area surrounded by Palestinian lands. The Israeli War of Independence, however, fought to line today known as the "Green Line" (Israel, minus the Occupied Territories). This was NOT instigated by 6 other countries.

Then a series of wars ensued culminating in the 6-day war. Note that during this history, we have seen several things:

Suez was given back to Egypt, with peace treaty brokered by Carter.
Several PM's have attempted to negotiate with Syria to return Golan.
Peace treaty with Jordan.

Only Israel's northern border is still volitile, and if they can solve their territorial dispute with Syria, there is no reason to assume that the Israel/Syria/Lebannon border won't become quiet, and normal relations can't occur.

Look-- my problems are these:
1) Lies regarding history
2) The idea that this conflict will never end virutally ensures its continuation.
3) The idea that these radical views of manifest destiny are representative of the views of the Jewish or even Israeli population. Maybe some time ago, but those days are done.

However, the real hope is this-- Israel has one thing that other Middle Eastern countries don't have-- a very strong, independent judicial system which has been making strident moves towards ensuring that Israeli war criminals can be brought to justice (THe ISC has expressed willingness to extradite to the ICC despite the lack of ratification). And there is a growing awareness of the real problems that the occupation is causing Israel among groups like the Israeli National Security COuncil.

The other thing is this-- Israel is slowly moving towards a more inclusive, pluralistic, secular state where the rights of non-Jews are beign respected. The civil rights stuggle that Arab Israeli citizens are involved in today could have great implications on the direction that Israel takes.

There are many good people in the Israeli government (just as there are many bad people there too). Just don't believe all the propaganda that a few people who claim to speak for all Jews and Israelis tell you. Just a clue-- they don't seak for everyone because these communities are rather diverse.

Residency is an immigration issue, these laws try to deal with a problem caused by marriages which were intended as a way to gain residency, they only affect residency for PA residents (which bars the question of race anyway, as most Jordanians, and almost all arab-israelis are Palastinians, according to the PLO and are not affected). The US USCIS too is regulating marriage of convenience (Did you ever see the movie Green Card? ;-)). These laws target residents of the PA only because that's where the problem is, you don't see many americans coming here for convenience, do you?

And anyway, Israeli immigration authorties (and the newly formed immigration police) are recently cracking down on all kinds of illegitimate immigration and work by illegal aliens, just like the US does. This is triggered by unemployment, not racisim.

About the fence, nobody like it, it's inconvinient, expensive, and not fair. I'll be the first to agree to that, and I can't wait to see it go down, right after the terrorism stops. And damn it, it's not a wall! The only parts where a wall exists are where there is a significant risk of civilians being shot at from the other side (where palastinian and israeli communities or major roads are nearby), they are a very small percentage of the total length.

How did they make the desert bloom?

The most important innovation in coping with scarce water supplies has been drip irrigation. This method of irrigation applies water and nutrients directly to the root of the plant at a controlled rate. See the drip irrigation pipelines. With traditional irrigation, most of the water evaporates from the ditch and is wasted. Drip irrigation uses less water, works with saline water, requires less fertilizer, and produces more crops.

It was invented in 1965 and has been used all over the world. If those former Soviet republics aren't using it, I suspect the reason is that they don't think they can afford to pay for the equipment. I would say that perhaps they can't afford not to pay for it.

How did they make the desert bloom?

The most important innovation in coping with scarce water supplies has been drip irrigation. This method of irrigation applies water and nutrients directly to the root of the plant at a controlled rate. See the drip irrigation pipelines. With traditional irrigation, most of the water evaporates from the ditch and is wasted. Drip irrigation uses less water, works with saline water, requires less fertilizer, and produces more crops.

It was invented in 1965 and has been used all over the world. If those former Soviet republics aren't using it, I suspect the reason is that they don't think they can afford to pay for the equipment. I would say that perhaps they can't afford not to pay for it.

How did they make the desert bloom?

The most important innovation in coping with scarce water supplies has been drip irrigation. This method of irrigation applies water and nutrients directly to the root of the plant at a controlled rate. See the drip irrigation pipelines. With traditional irrigation, most of the water evaporates from the ditch and is wasted. Drip irrigation uses less water, works with saline water, requires less fertilizer, and produces more crops.

It was invented in 1965 and has been used all over the world. If those former Soviet republics aren't using it, I suspect the reason is that they don't think they can afford to pay for the equipment. I would say that perhaps they can't afford not to pay for it.

The fact that the US violated no UN Security Council resolutions borders on a mere technicality.

But more relevantly...

• big fat line big fat line big fat line big fat line big fat line

First, I agree with the general point of your post. I am fundamentally opposed to any measures that see marginal improvement with relatively large cost in freedoms and money. (But some things can and sould be done to limit some vulnerabilities without negatively impacting my freedoms ... close the holes that you can). Those new drug commercials raise my ire for their black and white portrayal of drug users and non-users. And I do not want to feel more secure. I want to be free.

But, what countries? What countries see more losses to terrorism than the United States saw in one day? And do you seriously think that the U.S. is otherwise immune to terrorism? Do you think that 9/11 was to only loss of American life to terrorism?

I think you should do some research before you make a statement like that.

For instance, this pro-Israel FAQ regarding the "wave of Palestinian violence and terrorism that began in September 2000".

More looking should turn up other sources (don't take this one source as gospel ... it is biased). This source agrees (Israel statistic-wise) with other figures I've seen.

Based on the above, I am loath to take your statement on marijuana production with anything other than some salt. While, the statement is perhaps popular perception and I did grow up in Washington County, NY (once rumored to be the third weediest county in the nation) I am wary. (Also, in the 'I know someone sense', heroin use is increasing ... this same county recently had a heroin death ... a man who went to my school). However, some sources would support your claim.

And they aren't the only one to violate and / or try to sabotage international treaties. (Not that I'm defending North Korea, it is probably one of the most horrible places to be on this earth.)

Lighters commemorating 9/11 attack seized en route to Gaza (Communicated by the ISA (Shabak) )

Tuesday, September 10, 2002 In the context of the monitoring process carried out by security forces in order to uncover the smuggling of arms and ammunition to the Palestinian Authority, cigarette lighters depicting the attack on the World Trade Center next to an image of Osama Bin Laden, were found. The lighters were to be sold in Palestinian Authority areas.

In June 2002, the security forces carried out an inspection of crates that had arrived in the port of Ashdod. The crates were destined for the Palestinian Authority. In the course of the inspection of the containers - that were supposed to have contained toys - weapons, including pistols, were seized.

Also found were lighters depicting the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center of September 11, along with an image of Osama Bin Laden. The lighters were intended for a Palestinian dealer in Khan Yunis, in the Gaza Strip.

The planned distribution of these lighters in the Palestinian Authority was designed to be yet another expression of support for the terrorist attacks carried out by al-Qaeda organization, such as occurred in the Palestinian Authority in the aftermath of the September 11th attacks. Last year's expression of support included the distribution of sweets in the streets of the Palestinian Authority after the attacks, as well as mass celebrations in which shots were fired in the air as a mark of joy. Adults and children were seen waving pictures of bin Laden in Palestinian streets. In addition, leaflets were distributed in the Palestinian Authority emphasizing the importance of Jihad and calling on Muslims to stand up and take pride in their victory over the United States.

"Giving up some freedom can in fact give you some security, and we all do it all the time. I am not allowed to go around shooting people - if I do the cops come and arrest me. This is a compromise of my absolute freedom, but one that I (and the vast majority of other people) are very happy to make."

That's not giving up freedom so much as it is respecting the freedom of others - in this case the freedom to live. If you want a case study in why giving up freedom for security does not work, take a look at Israel. Their entire population is forced into military service, soldiers patrol the streets at all times with orders to hold anyone who appears suspicious, and now they're building a giant wall around themselves.

Looking at all that, the "let's trade some freedom for security" people need to understand something about the Israeli government's tactics. They are not preventing the terrorist attacks.

Our best defence against terrorism is, and has always been, our freedom. That's why Al Qaeda hit us instead of Israel. That's why we continue to be a target - our freedom scares the hell out of them.

"Giving up some freedom can in fact give you some security, and we all do it all the time. I am not allowed to go around shooting people - if I do the cops come and arrest me. This is a compromise of my absolute freedom, but one that I (and the vast majority of other people) are very happy to make."

That's not giving up freedom so much as it is respecting the freedom of others - in this case the freedom to live. If you want a case study in why giving up freedom for security does not work, take a look at Israel. Their entire population is forced into military service, soldiers patrol the streets at all times with orders to hold anyone who appears suspicious, and now they're building a giant wall around themselves.

Looking at all that, the "let's trade some freedom for security" people need to understand something about the Israeli government's tactics. They are not preventing the terrorist attacks.

Our best defence against terrorism is, and has always been, our freedom. That's why Al Qaeda hit us instead of Israel. That's why we continue to be a target - our freedom scares the hell out of them.

A direct result of the Taliban using the civilians as human sheilds. Starvation? The US intervention actually headed off famine, and did not cause it.

Yeah. That wasn't a wedding the US blew up, it was a bunch of taliban soldiers dressing up civilians to look like a wedding and holding them in front of them. That's it. And the Canadian soldiers bombed.. they were also being used as human shields, right?


"Do a little search on "Sharon war crimes" in google."

Yes. There are plenty of sites run by antisemitic kooks making up all kinds of things.

If you can't see that Sharon is not a great leader and should be brought up on war crime charges, you have to learn to see through the bullshit they feed you on TV. It should make you wonder why most of the world thinks the opposite of the United States on this one. Mind you Arafat is no saint either, and the quicker we get both of these criminals out of power, the sooner there is an actual chance for peace in that area. Also once Israel fully complies with UN resolution 242 , it will go a long ways to the peace process. Right now they have complied about 91%... IE: They turned over control of a egyptian desert back tyo egypt. The land that is actually worth anything they still hold. Israel says We complied.. Close enough, but in fact they've basically done nothing except leave a desert.

US actions in the middle-east have been 100% anti-imperialist. You have it backwards.


imperialism Pronunciation Key (m-pîr--lzm)
n.

1. The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.

Knocking out the current government (one they helped get there in the first place) to replace it with what will be a puppet government for the US sounds pretty imperialistic to me. And then stating they are going to remove Saddam and friends from power, to do the same thing? I think
he has it dead on.


"What about all of the Kurds and Iranians who were
killed by the USA using Iraq as a proxy?"

It didn't happen. Check again.

and

"I won't even get into the numerous murderous acts committed by the USA using Israel as a proxy against Palestine"

Don't go into it, as what you claim does not exist.

Ignorance is bliss isn't it? US has been using other countries to fight wars that they would lose to much face fighting for a long time now. This isn't exclusive to the US either. China does the same, and all superpowers have been doing it over time.

No, the Muslim extremists attack the US because we stand for freedom, and defend Jewish people from the attempts by Muslim extemists to exterminate them.

No, they attack the US for a few reasons. Use, exploitation and abuse of other contries to achive their higher standing of living (This also is not UScentric nor is it anything new. Exploitation is something every superpower makes use of, all through history). Their use of military power for lower cost imports, usually oil. Add in some jealousy, some other bad US foreign policy, a pissing match or two, and some crazy mother fucker pissed off because the US stepped on his homeland, and you've got a whole lotta hate being generated at you.

But in all fairness, if you're American you don't get to see much of both sides in the media. As an aside, you do sound like a prime candidate for head guinnie pig in some mind control experiments.

First of all, thank you for questioning me. It always helps to do some more digging into what one really believes is true. I have been forced to find out why I say what I have said. Thank you.

Where did you get this "fact" from?

See this article about the modern history of Jews in Palestine. Some relevant quotes from the article:

"Owing to its own political compulsions, the British promised a Jewish homeland to the Jews in Palestine by the Balfour Declaration of November 1917"

"By end of 1947, the British had decided to withdraw from Palestine by May 1948. The state of Palestine was formally partitioned and Israel was formed in May 1948"

There are a ton of good books on the subject, one of which can be found here. In this one, it is clear that not all "facts" are genuine as may be the case with my comment on the international decree to form Israel. Relevant quote from the page is "The editors are keen to pursue the idea that historical 'facts' have been manipulated by elites through media such as history books."

Oh, right. I forgot the special unspoken assumption where Western culture is always right and appropriate in it's projection of force and decisions regarding other, non-Western, cultures. Sorry. My bad.

Your sarcasm is not relevant or intelligent and does nothing to help me see your point of view, which is the point of this conversation, correct?

The point is that the propaganda machine generated by the intelligentsia and the mass media in the U.S. is pervasive, hard-to-see, and incredibly effective.

Yes, but it is not universally available. As you mentioned, Bejing and Hong Kong are not the same. Furthermore, most propaganda machines can be described this way whether it's from the US, Japan or Cambodia.

In fact, it's almost never questioned

You are questioning it now. I always question everything someone else tells me regardless of the evidence supporting it. As for being (mis)taught history in school, every country teaches their kids that their country is the best and rarely if never did anything wrong. I challenge you to find a country where this is not the case.