Slashdot Mirror

I've helped four members of our management setup nest thermostats and security cameras. Three of them have around 750 kbps DSL (supposed to be up to 1.5 Mbps, but Frontier around here sucks), and the cameras worked just fine. Even the spec page:

https://nest.com/support/article/Are-there-any-issues-with-streaming-Nest-Cam-over-a-mobile-Wi-Fi-hotspot

Says "It requires 200kb/s (0.2Mbps) of bandwidth on average, but can reach up to as much as 500kb/s" The thermostat should be a tiny fraction of that.

editor mean Nest Labs, I think...

I have a Nest thermostat. It displays in large the temperature you set it to instead of the current room temperature. What the actual fuck? A mercury thermometer is smarter than this.

There was a feature request for this opened in 2013, it has 1683 votes and its the third most popular feature request. You would think that even an entry level programmer would be able to fix that or add an option, but no, the feature has been completely ignored for years and contacting support about it only gives the reply "keep voting for it", even though that is clearly going to /dev/null. The other popular features request are equally ignored.

I am very frustrated by the complete lack of support these devices have. The entire community web site is nothing more than a pacifier for nest owners.

I like how the people posting blatant lies post anonymously :)

First of all, there is a difference between the camera being powered on and recording. It's like leaving your camera on but not hitting the shutter. The camera is on, but nothing is being saved anywhere.

Second, you can delete your videos. You can do it on the old dropcams to the new Nest Cams. See the support site if you don't know how to do it.
https://nest.com/support/artic...

If you are worried about the fact that it can take a few days for all the copies in the distributed cloud to be deleted, then yes, when you host the amount of data that Google does, it's going to take some time for all the replicated copies to be deleted. Cloud infrastructure is pretty complicated.

It can happen at home too.
My house burned down, and the fire started in a battery pack.
I suspect that there have been many house fires caused by these things.
Don't leave them charging overnight or when you are not at home.
They are like a bomb waiting to go off.
Your smartphone can do a lot, but there is no smoke detector app.

Yes there is. Though I don't need a smoke detector app on my phone to hear the smoke detector in my bedroom go off if my phone catches on fire at night.

And it can't put out a fire.

Depends on the size of the fire. My phone could put out a match.

It's a hell of a lot harder to bug every man, woman, and child in the west than it is to intercept and crawl their communications.

Oh really? Nest, Kinect, Smart TV and the Internet of Things suggest otherwise. Not to mention remotely monitoring the ambient surroundings of a smart phone, tablet or laptop with microphone/webcam. It may be difficult to bug everyone, but we're bringing the bugs into our homes willingly (though mostly unknowingly, I think), so it's more concievable than you think.

I'm not sure anyone sees an internet connected thermostat as "the next big thing;" but that doesn't mean it's not a fantastic convenience device and that the learning features are saving people money.

https://community.nest.com/thr...

Other than a few people who have incompatible multistage heat pumps, and ignoring the sort of conformation bias by those who opted in early, there's still good savings to be had with a smart thermostat. Connecting it to the internet makes it even more aware. It can save me more money if it knows I'm not coming home tonight, and not to bother heating up the house until I'm actually on my way.

I'm not rushing out to buy Bluetooth door locks (mostly since we rarely lock the doors in our milquetoast suburban neighborhood), but products with the "Works with Next" logo seem a no-brainer if you've already got some devices that can talk to each other. It may not be a big hassle to take your keys out of your pocket when you come home and walk over to your thermostat once you're inside the house, but some of us like convenience and automation. Google's keeping an arm's length from Nest, but as soon as location services is fully integrated, I'll be happy Nest realizes we all left the house without turning down the thermostat and lowers it for us.

Most of us recognize you're as get-off-my-lawn of a regular as Slashdot has, but you might be missing the boat on something like Nest. It's a good product, and "works with Nest" is simply a sign that other manufacturers have realized it too.

Seriously! How long would one have to be away and kicking himself that he forgot to change the thermostat setting before having one of these new fangled ones would pay for itself?

Looking at the spiel from Nest, these products pay for themselves through regular use, not through exceptions:

Auto-Schedule makes it easy to create an energy efficient schedule that can help you save up to 20% on your heating and cooling bills. All the Nest Thermostat's features combined can get you even bigger savings

More: https://nest.com/thermostat/sa...

Some dude, who may very well be paid by Nest, tweeted this:

After a year using my @Nest thermostat, I've saved $326.74 / 2,651 kWh over the previous year.

Linky: https://twitter.com/MattClippe...

Not saying that all of the above is true, but at least it seems that they'd consider your premise incorrect.

Here's the API reference. It doesn't let you see or do much. I though the Nest was supposed to "learn" your behavior patterns, but if it does, that info isn't exposed in the API. You can look at the temperature and heat/cool/fan status, and maybe change the setpoints. You can tell if someone is home, and when they set the time for when they were coming back.

This isn't an API for the device. It's an API for a Google-hosted service that controls the device. Google is in total control of your home.

From the summary:

...he says that data won't be shared with anyone, including Google, without a customer's permission. ...

What he actually says is:

...Like Nest customer data, Dropcam will come under Nest’s privacy policy, which explains that data won’t be shared with anyone (including Google) without a customer’s permission....

What Nest's privacy policy actually says is:

We pledge to: ... Ask your permission before sharing your Personally Identifiable Information with third parties for purposes other than to provide Nest’s services,

Notice how, we won't share your data with anyone without your permission in the article suddenly morphs into we won't share your personally identifiable information with anyone in the actual privacy policy statement?

What about the other non-personally identifiable data, like when my house is empty? Or how many people are in the house? etc, etc.

I've read their policy, and I've been keeping an eye on it because I'm so wary of Google (I have a Nest thermostat, and some Protects all acquired before the purchase so my concern is a bit more than theoretical).
That being said, their privacy policy says, We may share your aggregated and anonymous information in a variety of ways, including to publish trends about energy use and conservation, to help utilities provide demand-response services and to generally improve our system. We’ve taken steps to ensure that the information cannot be linked back to you and we require our partners to keep all information in its anonymous form so what's the big deal if the information is aggregated saying A house somewhere is empty between 1 and 5pm and the temp has risen to 81 degrees, etc? As long it's anonymous, I don't care.

Don't trust the article. Read the privacy policies and they are consistent. The next version might be different as that'll be the first post-Google one.

wrong.

nest thermostat can detect you, and actively tries to determine if you are home.

The nest protect can ALSO detect you, and well enough that you can do the "nest wave" underneath it to silence an alarm.

They also communicate back and forth so that the thermostat can turn off the furnace if there's a fire, and the thermostat can go into "away" mode when nobody is home.

The protect has two ultrasonic sensors, an occupancy sensor, a light sensor and a variety of smoke/heat sensors:

Nest protect sensors

I can't find a simple summary for the thermostat, but it has occupancy, temperature and humidity sensors at least.

You can, and it should work. You will still need to connect to get updates. It does seem like they are serious in keeping it updated. http://support.nest.com/articl...

Everyone with a Nest is probably already aware of their Energy Partners https://nest.com/ca/energy-par... program.

Instead of having your utility company cut your power in the summer when its hot out like they do some places, Nest users' thermostats pre-cool their homes in the morning to reduce energy use during peak hours as determined by the power company. This is a win-win you sign up for, not a spying act.

If you don't want Nest to know about your energy usage, just disable its wifi connection. It still works fine without it.

The article is very misleading. Nest is working with some power companies which offer their customers financial incentives to allow the power company to dial back their AC units during high load times. Pepco in DC offers the same service but you have to pay for their thermostat. This isn't selling user information this is letting the power companies access their customers' thermostats if and only if that customer allows it. Nothing in the article says anything else is happening than this but states it in a very deceptive way. If the article actually had some evidence of something more nefarious it would be fine but as it is just doesn't stand up.

This is a link to the Nest program: https://nest.com/energy-partne...

https://nest.com/ ...and their blog post about being acquired by google: https://nest.com/blog/2014/01/13/welcome-home/

Let's build a NEST clone, and spy on OURSELVES!

This message was brought to you Through a Scanner, Darkly...

https://nest.com/ ...and their blog post about being acquired by google: https://nest.com/blog/2014/01/13/welcome-home/

Let's build a NEST clone, and spy on OURSELVES!

This message was brought to you Through a Scanner, Darkly...

https://nest.com/ ...and their blog post about being acquired by google: https://nest.com/blog/2014/01/13/welcome-home/

https://nest.com/ ...and their blog post about being acquired by google: https://nest.com/blog/2014/01/13/welcome-home/

Nest responded to this on their blog: "Your Nest Protect questions. Our answers." There is no requirement for a hard-wire, there is a requirement for a connection and that can be wireless. All vendors are incompatible and do not support hard-wire connection to other vendors.

For an eye opener on market pricing look at the KIDDE Silhouette, pricing over U$S110 (list price) by some vendors and that's only a hard wired carbon-monoxide detector. Amazon stocks it for a more reasonable US$60.

As if Nest has published APIs

Coming soon, apparently - https://nest.com/developer/

or control of the thermostat doesn't require going through their servers?

Yes, that is annoying. There's no reason why they couldn't have a local WiFi API in addition to the server-based API (which is necessary because the average Joe doesn't understand how to punch a hole through their NAT router for access away from home). Well, I can think of one reason: they wouldn't get to collect as much data if someone could choose to use it over local WiFi only.

Nest has actually released an API for their learning thermostats. http://nest.com/blog/2013/09/25/calling-all-developers/

While it's not necessarily an open standard, they are playing nice with others to be able to add new functionality to their products.

The generic business plan of Google Ventures companies, based on their privacy policies, seems to be

• Give away service for cheap or free
• Ram anal probe up user's ass and collect data
• Spam with ads.

Even their thermostat phones home and sends data about when you're home to a server.

Waste of electricity? I'd argue the opposite. Modern home automation technologies are largely very power efficient and can be used to set up power-saving routines that are only possible by having a greater awareness of the user's proximity and other environmental factors.

The issue right now is that there are several competing "standards" out there, such as X10, Insteon, and Z-wave, the latter two of which are wireless protocols that are more power efficient than wifi, while making some concessions that largely don't matter for what they're being used to do, while the first one sends small signals over your existing electrical lines. Besides those, Bluetooth Low Energy is increasingly being used to recognize the proximity of the user to other devices (e.g. unlock the door as I approach), and cellular signals coupled with wifi allow the phone to detect when it has crossed virtual geofences that can act as triggers to disable devices you accidentally left turned on at home (e.g. turn off my entertainment center that I accidentally left on when I had to rush out the door).

And I'm just talking about stuff that's doable right now with relatively cheap components. IfThisThenThat (ifttt.com) acts as some awesome glue to make various components such as your phone, your Belkin WeeMo devices, your Phillips Hue lights, or other such accessories play nice with each other. But others don't even need that glue, such as the Canary security device, which is designed to disrupt the home security market (side note: it's in the middle of it's Indiegogo funding, so you can get in for a cheaper price than retail still, despite the fact that it's almost been funded 10x over at this point).

As for the contents of your fridge, I agree that it doesn't matter if you know what they are, but imagine if your fridge could use less electricity by directing cooler air to specific compartments where it knew you had food that needed those temperatures? Many condiments don't actually need to be refrigerated, so it might direct less cool air at them, while directing more of it at the vegetables that you want to keep crisp. I'm a bachelor who hates going grocery shopping and eats out a lot, so I have a near-empty fridge and a freezer that's been empty for a few weeks now, yet it never even occurred to me until I was writing this post that I could have changed the settings of my fridge to save a decent amount of energy.

And turning off lights at the press of a button on your phone is overrated, as you said, but what about doing it automatically? We're not too far away from stuff like Star Trek's ubiquitous, "Computer, lights!" becoming a reality here, not to mention the automated proximity based signals that I mentioned earlier. You can already hack stuff like that together for yourself on the cheap, and there are more and more devices being aimed at end users that are doing things along these lines.

And the Nest? Come on, don't tell me you think that it wastes electricity compared to the majority of alternatives available out there. It knows when you're home or gone, can be set remotely from afar, and has loads of other smart features built into it.

We're in the future now, and as we have more devices collecting more data in the home, we can be putting it to work in being less wasteful with what we have while also providing us with a more home that is as responsive as we expect our software to be. It's a win-win, and it doesn't involve being able to see a list of everything in my fridge at any moment. :P

Get this thing for a thermostat. It's kinda awesome.

Careful with that axe, Eugene: http://diy-zoning.blogspot.com/search/label/Nest

It's not quite what it's cracked up to be.

DISCLAIMER: I'm running the open source project that is a direct competition to Nest. Well, 'xcept the profit, of course :)

Get this thing for a thermostat. It's kinda awesome.

I just saw a blog of some home heating and cooling specialists who were decrying the new Nest thermostat because it comes with a screwdriver and homeowner-oriented installation instructions. "Nest shouldn't encourage people to install their own thermostats. They should tell people to hire heating specialists who have the experience and the tools and the knowledge and the [blah blah blah]" All I could see was a tremendous amount of whining and fear-driven self-preservationism, with absolutely no actual facts presented to support their position. They don't care what percentage of the homeowner's installations of Nest thermostats are completely successful and wouldn't have required a heating expert, only that Nest is deliberately cutting into their service calls. The bastards.

So from the viewpoint of someone reading a rant from a writer who is despairing the fall of grammar, your point also seems a bit self-serving. "You need good writers because, well, I'm a writer!" The heating guys completely failed to do it, but I think you need to prepare your value case. At least you are much better equipped to do so than they are.

Is the value of good grammar strictly aesthetic? Art for art's sake is certainly a valid reason, and pays the bills as long as you have patrons for support and a gallery to display your works in, but you better have thick skin to deal with being called a pretentious snob. The other problem with art is that popular art likes to break the rules, and so it continually evolves in the eyes of its beholders. I'm not saying "TH3 L33T WURKS UV B1LLY $H@KESF33R'S LOLCAT" are ever going to be revered by future generations, nor would anyone mistake B1FF!!1!! for a writer, only that an artist has to understand that there are an infinite number of forms the craft will appear to take. Even though 99.9% of them will suck.

Is there value in the extra precision that you are able to deliver in your writing? Does your writing carry its meaning so clearly that nobody ever has to pause to question your words? That has great practical value, especially when compared against people whose writing frequently falls short; but it's hardly satisfying to be "the guy who writes perfectly at a 5th grade reading level."

So go ahead. Try to preserve some form of the formal rules of the language. Please. Just be prepared for disappointment.

Better and cheaper isn't necessarily a direct route to success.

Structural monopolies often have extensive mechanisms in place to deter competition. For example, look at the Nest Thermostat. It sure is better, and it's not even cheaper, yet the comfortable incumbent (Honeywell) is trying to sue it out of existence. I hope Next succeeds, but it seems likely that their legal costs will be substantial.

It's even worse in the medical field, where comfortable relationships between device manufacturers and medical personnel (oh, no, that conference wasn't a bribe, it was a valuable educational opportunity) are an incredible barrier to competition. This is balanced to some extent by the enormous egos of many medical professionals (surgeons, anyone?) that has led to disruptive medical device innovation, but on the whole, the field has a lot of structural resistance to change, and it takes a lot of sunshine to eliminate such practices.

Seriously...now that you're married, possibly have a family later, etc, start thinking about cool gadgets that are more than cool. Gadgets that will save you money, help monitor your home, etc. Practical gadgets. The very first thing I would add would be a NEST Thermostat. It is so unbelievably cool looking, will mesmerize your friends, and will keep you comfortable year round while saving piles of money on heating and cooling bills. Plus it's always cool to be able to track and make changes to stuff like this from your web browser or phone from anywhere. It's a real conversation piece. Read about it and watch the videos here: http://www.nest.com/

Two items I can recommend that cost a bit upfront but do indeed save money down the road:
- Nest Thermostat ( http://www.nest.com/ )
- Tankless water heater

A good tankless water heater will cost a few K (with installation, etc...) so perhaps just start with the Nest. There is currently a waiting list for them, but I was able to get mine about 3 months after waiting. It looks cool, and if used properly, will continually save you money over the life of the house.

Or why a thermostat would be Internet accessible.

Want to know why a thermostat would be Internet accessible? see here

Want to know why a garage door opener would be Internet accessible? see here

More and more things are becoming that way. like it or not.

It does have a humidity sensor: http://support.nest.com/customer/portal/articles/181007-what-kind-of-data-does-the-nest-learning-thermostat-track-or-measure-

It's $249 and sold out already.