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You don't want Linux. You want an operating system which should be able to run Windows applications.

Give a try (in a VM, of course) to ReactOS

http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html

ReactOS

The general idea is similar to what you are looking for. It's nowhere near finished and they have been working on for god knows how long, but who knows. Someday perhaps.

http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html

It's closer than you think.

Tell that to these guys.

but that iDeneb project is way cheaper as it does not require a dongle.

Others have found a way to hack their BIOS to use the Apple OEM ID and do their own EFI to run Mac OSX to fool OSX to think it is running on a real Apple Macintosh. The nice thing about EEPROMS is that you can flash update them easily, and anyone who knows machine language can hack their own BIOS file into one that can easily pass for an Apple Macintosh BIOS.

As for people like me, we don't even need a dongle to make our Intel PC turn into an Amiga that is even cooler than an Apple Macintosh running OSX, and has a much lower memory footprint so it runs faster than OSX, and has an interface and look and feel like OSX or Vista, but is 100% free, 100% open source, and 100% legal.

For those who want to pirate OSX, get real, get AROS instead and support AROS developers to develop more AROS drivers and software. Why settle for a monopoly from Microsoft or Apple, when you can be free and use a non-monopoly OS that will run on almost any PC, Mac, Amiga, MIPS, PowerPC, etc system on the market?

You want an alternative to Windows? Wait until ReactOS is done. It will run Windows applications. If you want an alternative to Windows that does not run Windows programs get HaikuOS when it is ready as it is a free and open source BeOS operating system. Once OSFree is finished it will be a free OS/2 open source OS, but I heard they will make it run under Linux to run OS/2 applications. Support your favorite free open source operating system instead of pirating OSX. Who cares enough about bloatware to pirate OSX or Vista, they are both bloated and buggy! If you want a free OS, get a free open source OS as I listed above when they are finished and out of beta testing. If you can't wait join in their beta program and give them feedback on how to fix it, or join the developers to help them get done faster.

Boycott Vista and OSX, and get Linux instead and install a Macintosh skin on Linux instead of pirating OSX.

The whole argument for FOSS 3D video card drivers is just silly in my opinion.

It makes excellent sense if your whole world is not limited to X.org. There are lots of other platforms that can benefit from Open drivers.

They need some more help to get a viable Windows alternative out there.

If this project succeeds then we don't need to worry about xp or vista anymore.

This open source project is one of the most important to topple Microsoft. Google should put some help & money into it too.

http://www.reactos.org/

No, they use FUD to scare people. Linux and Open Office infringe on 238 Microsoft patents? They keep saying that but they have not named one patent that was infringed.

A lot of crap comes out of Ballmer's mouth. But look at what they do, not what they say.

Sometimes all that's needed is loud enough a noise level, look at SCO and how they scared some companies into paying for licenses.

history proved Microsoft was right -- a browser is an entirely proper and expected tool of a complete operating system.

Browsers have nothing to do with operating systems. That is, operating systems do not need a web browser built in. However that's not all of it. The original agreement between MS and the Justice Department was that MS would not include a web browser with Windows but MS did anyway. They then tried to say Windows needed Internet Explorer but that was shown false when someone else removed IE from Windows. According to Wiki IE 4 was integrated with Windows Explorer. CNet describes how IE can be removed from XP. And there are more of those.

On the other hand, Apple has been more monopolistic and anti-consumer than Microsoft ever dreamed of being.

In what way? Not selling the Mac OS to cloners? Apple makes money not just on their OS, heck the last tyme I looked at the price of a Windows upgrade it was something like $200 but I can buy Apple's new OS Leopard for $130. Apple also makes money on their hardware. Apple sales a compleat computer system that just works. Apple only prevents, er tries to prevent, people from installing Mac OS on non Apple computers. I can however install Ubuntu on a Mac, well maybe not me personally but Apple doesn't stop people from doing it. Apple even released a tool that allows people to install other OSes on Macs.

Maybe you mean the iPod and iTunes. However virtually any digital music can be installed on an iPod. And iTunes music can be installed on virtually any digital music player. iTunes makes it easy to burn music to CD even, and it can import any CD music. Or maybe you mean the iPhone. There I agree having to use ATT instead of another cellphone operator sucks, and I disagree with it but everyone who buys one knows this. Or maybe you mean Zune and Plays for sure, but those are from Microsoft not Apple.

If you read a little more in-depth, you'll see they are striving for NT compatibility, which is about 15 years old. XP/2003/Vista are just different versions of NT.

I search the front page and saw nothing about NT 4. Looking at the FAQ all they say about NT is that it is more stable. Okay, I see it on the about page. However why would anyone want to "re-implement NT?" My version, running on a DEC Alpha which was late to the game, is more than 10 years old. MS stopped supporting it in 2000. I know, I tried to run Windows Update but MS's update site said it was no longer supported. I ended up taking the Alpha to the Geek Squad, before Best Buy bought them, to have it upgraded. And paid almost $200 for it.

And how many lawsuits has Microsoft filed against the WINE guys? How about CodeWeavers, which allows Microsoft Office to run under Linux? How about the SAMBA guys?

Microsoft would be stupid to try to stop people from buying Office. However Microsoft did step on SAMBA's toes.

And I assure you, a significant number of people will be using XP for the next 3-5 years. Considering the vast majority of applications and hardware still run on Win2K, I don't think it'll be a huge problem.

And how long will they get support from MS? MS keeps extending support but for how much longer?

Falcon

No, they use FUD to scare people. Linux and Open Office infringe on 238 Microsoft patents? They keep saying that but they have not named one patent that was infringed.

A lot of crap comes out of Ballmer's mouth. But look at what they do, not what they say.

Sometimes all that's needed is loud enough a noise level, look at SCO and how they scared some companies into paying for licenses.

history proved Microsoft was right -- a browser is an entirely proper and expected tool of a complete operating system.

Browsers have nothing to do with operating systems. That is, operating systems do not need a web browser built in. However that's not all of it. The original agreement between MS and the Justice Department was that MS would not include a web browser with Windows but MS did anyway. They then tried to say Windows needed Internet Explorer but that was shown false when someone else removed IE from Windows. According to Wiki IE 4 was integrated with Windows Explorer. CNet describes how IE can be removed from XP. And there are more of those.

On the other hand, Apple has been more monopolistic and anti-consumer than Microsoft ever dreamed of being.

In what way? Not selling the Mac OS to cloners? Apple makes money not just on their OS, heck the last tyme I looked at the price of a Windows upgrade it was something like $200 but I can buy Apple's new OS Leopard for $130. Apple also makes money on their hardware. Apple sales a compleat computer system that just works. Apple only prevents, er tries to prevent, people from installing Mac OS on non Apple computers. I can however install Ubuntu on a Mac, well maybe not me personally but Apple doesn't stop people from doing it. Apple even released a tool that allows people to install other OSes on Macs.

Maybe you mean the iPod and iTunes. However virtually any digital music can be installed on an iPod. And iTunes music can be installed on virtually any digital music player. iTunes makes it easy to burn music to CD even, and it can import any CD music. Or maybe you mean the iPhone. There I agree having to use ATT instead of another cellphone operator sucks, and I disagree with it but everyone who buys one knows this. Or maybe you mean Zune and Plays for sure, but those are from Microsoft not Apple.

If you read a little more in-depth, you'll see they are striving for NT compatibility, which is about 15 years old. XP/2003/Vista are just different versions of NT.

I search the front page and saw nothing about NT 4. Looking at the FAQ all they say about NT is that it is more stable. Okay, I see it on the about page. However why would anyone want to "re-implement NT?" My version, running on a DEC Alpha which was late to the game, is more than 10 years old. MS stopped supporting it in 2000. I know, I tried to run Windows Update but MS's update site said it was no longer supported. I ended up taking the Alpha to the Geek Squad, before Best Buy bought them, to have it upgraded. And paid almost $200 for it.

And how many lawsuits has Microsoft filed against the WINE guys? How about CodeWeavers, which allows Microsoft Office to run under Linux? How about the SAMBA guys?

Microsoft would be stupid to try to stop people from buying Office. However Microsoft did step on SAMBA's toes.

And I assure you, a significant number of people will be using XP for the next 3-5 years. Considering the vast majority of applications and hardware still run on Win2K, I don't think it'll be a huge problem.

And how long will they get support from MS? MS keeps extending support but for how much longer?

Falcon

and said that its OS is not going out without a fight!

Seriously, some variation of NT 5 is going to live for a long time, ReactOS is proof positive of this.

Say what you want about Microsoft, but they have rarely, if ever, used lawsuits as a weapon against competitors

No, they use FUD to scare people. Linux and Open Office infringe on 238 Microsoft patents? They keep saying that but they have not named one patent that was infringed. Actually they got that 238 from a study that said 238 patents might be infringed, might not does. Meanwhile it's Microsoft that's a convicted monopoly not Apple. And MS supports other's who do sue businesses. MS paid SCO who sued IBM and others.

See these guys. They've been working on a Windows clone for 10 years now, and not a peep out of Microsoft

Ten years? According to the link, they're working on Windows® XP/2003 compatibility. Neither XP nor 2003 are ten years old. Ten years ago MS's server OS was Windows NT4, my left knee is touching my PC with NT4 Workstation installed. I've had it 10 1/2 years. Windows 2003 was introduced April 24, 2003, a little over 5 years ago. However I bet many programs for XP and 2003 won't run on Vista, or the next Windows.

And they're getting close to a usable beta release.

And when they do either MS will have broken Windows or they'll slap a lawsuit on ReactOS. Even if they don't who will still be using either Windows?

Falcon

They're monopolies because big companies bribed politicians into giving them monopolies.

Don't be absurd. They've been monopolies since the beginning of time because no one wants multiple sets of wires runnings through their neighborhood, or multiple sets of water pipes, or multiple sets of gas pipes, etc.

The pharmaceutical industry. Virtually no newcomers due to interlocking patent issues.

That's so absurd as to be parody. Exactly which patent stops someone from opening a lab and doing research? Here are two that I found in about five seconds of searching:

New pharma 1
New pharma 2

It is simply not possible to make a "clean room" clone of, say, Windows 2000. [snip ridiculous nonsense] It is far too complicated to make EXACTLY the same systems from scratch.

*cough*ReactOS*cough*

and if anyone who has access to the source code tries to re-implement part of Windows Microsoft will sue them and win easily.

As I pointed out to someone else in this thread, say what you want about Microsoft, but they have rarely, if ever, used lawsuits as weapons (unlike, say, Apple). The ReactOS project has been around over 10 years. I assure you that Microsoft knows about it. If they were going to try and crush the life out of them, they would've done it before now, when they have an XP-level beta release possibly coming out this year.

Also note that the WINE project has also not been crushed out of existence, despite the fact that you typically need to use real Windows DLLs to make it truly functional. See also: CodeWeavers, which makes *MS Office* run under Linux.

Of course, your own example of Samba also kills your argument. Last I checked, Microsoft hasn't sued them out of existence.

At least try and do a little research before posting rants like this.

In theory perhaps but not in real life. You don't think MS won't slap a lawsuit on a competitor who tries to clone Windows?

I'm tired of this whole subject, but let me just address this: Say what you want about Microsoft, but they have rarely, if ever, used lawsuits as a weapon against competitors (unlike, say, Apple). Proof? See these guys. They've been working on a Windows clone for 10 years now, and not a peep out of Microsoft (I assure you, they know about it). And they're getting close to a usable beta release.

.

Let me give you an example. Recently, I got a new PC running Vista. One of the first things I tried to do was install my favorite game, Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines. Now, officially, V:tM:B isn't supported on 64 bit Windows OSs. This is due to an easily corrected programming mistake by Troika as it was going out the door (they were under a lot of pressure, I don't blame them). A kindly hacker has fixed it for us: Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines 64 bit patch

So, the next game I tried to Install was my second favorite System Shock 2. I also had a problem with that due to my Dual Core CPU. So, I had to find another kindly hacker to help me... Game Issues With Multiprocessor/Hyperthreading Systems...

I'm expecting to keep installing old games, because I happen to like them. (Sacrifice is probably up next... well after my Steam games and Dawn of War.)

Now with Wine, you have people dedicated to adding a Windows compatibility layer to Linux. Each individual game you might think of will have an entry in the database, with different levels of success. Wine itself runs in multiple modes, so if one mode doesn't work you can try others. Unfortunately at the moment, it isn't a panacea. Some games work, and some don't. What I'm hoping for in the future is that older games will work better in Wine than the latest Windows, especially games that have a small but loyal fanbase. Because with old games, officialdom doesn't care, we could lose generations of gaming art and they'd just shrug. It's sort of like throwing out all the old books, or trashing all the old movies... (there was a time when that was a problem, a lot of old Ernie Kovacs was recycled for it's silver content... )

Alternatives for a lot of games are also in the works, basically creating Linux native engines to run Windows content. I remember looking for one for Dark Engine games, with no luck, but that was a while back. Of course, maybe I should be following ReactOS's Progress instead, but right now it isn't nearly as desktop ready as Linux and I like Linux better than WinXP, given the choice. Of course, really old games from Infocom and LucasArts tend to have top notch native Linux support, so I have hope.

You mean like ReactOS?

Actually the Internet File sharing Pirates have an answer to that, it is called Tiny XP. It is the bare minimum you need from XP to play games on it.

Microsoft has Windows PE, of which BartPE and Reatogo are based on provided you have a legal Windows XP SP2 or higher CD-ROM to use to create the smaller version of XP on for just the basics. They are what the Ultimate Boot CD is based on and there exists an option to install that to the hard drive instead of the standard XP. I've used it and it does not even ask you for a valid CD-Key to install BartPE or boot from it. You just have to own a copy of Windows XP SP2 or higher to use it, while it works with XP SP1 and under, I wouldn't recommend it. I even heard it can use Windows Vista for a PE version of Windows, but I never tried that.

It is either BartPE or some variation, or wait for ReactOS to at least get a beta build. ReactOS 0.3.5 came out in June 30th 2008, but Slashdot seems to be ignoring it and BartPE and variants. ReactOS is an open source OS based on WINE that is being written to run at least Windows XP/2003 code under it and use XP/2003 drivers. It is not ready for prime time yet.

Actually the same thing could be said about OS/2 and IBM OEMed it to Serenity for eComStation to become the new OS/2 for modern systems.

The reason, for running legacy software that only works on the original OS and not an emulator. There are a lot of business apps written for PalmOS that cannot run on other operating systems. A lot of data collection software using proprietary hardware attached to Palm Pilots and other PalmOS PDAs is too expensive to port to a new OS and the companies that write the software refuse to port them.

The same problem exists for legacy Windows software as Windows Vista cannot run the custom business programs written for XP, and 2000, and older Windows versions like PLC (Programmable Logic Controllers) software used in assembly lines to control robots or alarm systems. Which is why projects like ReactOS exist as Microsoft is dropping support and sales for XP and 2000 and earlier operating systems based on Windows.

By 2010 ReactOS will be ready! In your face MS!

and if you cant get windows xp in time you can always check out and support ReactOS

Killing MinWin, in order to turn Windows 7 into Vista plus some more bloat, is pretty much the end of the product line. By the time it's out, people will have the choice of an even more bloaty Microsoft offering or ReactOS (free GPL Windows) which will have become stable and usable by this stage. Most commercial software is tooled to be compatible back to Windows 2000 (and often back to Windows 98), so a stable ReactOS will be sufficient and, unlike Windows 7, exceptionally trim. Currently, a ReactOS vmWare image is all of 22M and is already capable of running complex software for Windows such as Mozilla's collection. Even if you treble that size for 2-3 years more ReactOS development and it'll still perfect for getting the most out of your hardware, even down to the smallest UMPC. The bloated bohemoth that is a MinWin-free Windows 7 will be slaughtered like a stuck pig.

And also, knowing MS, they will release Windows 7 Lite edition that will just barely run on them and stop supporting XP in 3 years and charge them around $25 for each upgrade as is the way of MS.

In those three years time, there's a pretty good chance ReactOS will be a stable Win32 alternative OS. Even today, version 0.3.4 packs in a huge amount of functionality into its 22M ISO; it installs, boots and you can successfully run an increasing number of Windows apps including Firefox and Thunderbird. It's definitely one to watch in future.

What feature(s) (besides cost and idealism)does an open source OS allow someone like me that windows doesn't?

There is a clone of Windows, it's called reactOs . It's in alpha.

I'm smarter than my cats, and that's genetic.

There will be a day when IQ can be adjusted genetically.

Some primates are social, some aren't - gorillas vs orangutans, and that's genetic. There will be a day when the need for social approval can be adjusted genetically.

I'm smarter than my cats, and that's genetic.

There will be a day when IQ can be adjusted genetically.

Some primates are social, some aren't - gorillas vs orangutans, and that's genetic. There will be a day when the need for social approval can be adjusted genetically.

As a self proclaimed nerd I would like to see a linux distro that actually did something revolutionary.

might be the answer. ReactOS should be ready for at least beta testing by 2010. No need for Microsoft to GPL XP as ReactOS is a Windows clone built by GPL code to run Windows XP etc programs in it and use Windows drivers.

Long live ReactOS!

Well, at least I'm confident that by the time Windows 7 comes out, ReactOS will be in a usable state.

Hmm, I'm not sure if it'd apply to Intel or not. Surely though it'd apply to operating systems since MS is a convicted monopolist. The solution is therefore for the government to subsidize linux.

The difference is that it takes billions of dollars just to start to compete with Intel. Someone could make a Windows clone and compete with Microsoft for, say, a couple tens of millions. That nobody does it is the stupidity of most of the industry, who don't understand the power of compatability. They just see the (relative) failures of MacOS, Linux, BeOS, etc, etc, and don't understand why they failed. But that's a different rant. :)

That a ragtag bunch of volunteers can get within some functional distance of this supposedly impossible task proves it can be done (not to mention the Wine project).

I suppose you are right. But I wanted to show them that there was an alternative to Windows out there, and they wanted to try it. So I did install Linux for them, but they made me put Linux back on their PC.

Linux, BSD Unix, Mac OSX doesn't always work for most people, they need the ability to run native Windows programs and an emulator or virtual machine only slows them down or confuses them. Dual-Booting also confuses them as they try to run or install Windows programs under Linux, Mac OSX, etc. The only real choice for them is ReactOS when it is finally finished and out of alpha and beta testing. At least it can run native Windows programs and use native Windows drivers.

Still they are my family members and friends and need me help to fix Windows when it gets broken, so it is hard to tell them NO even if they keep messing up their Windows by making bad choices/actions.

Shamelessly replying to myself.

A note about the article submitter being a Microsoft proponent: my point is that I think (or hope) he knows fairly well what Open Source means since he is the main kernel hacker on React OS (the project to code a Win32 F/OSS clone). Yet I have always been dubious about the project and why would someone who knows about what Open Source is present such a license as if it were?

"Even if ReactOS is capable of running 100% of windows software, it would be nearly impossible for them to reach the level of market saturation that Microsoft enjoys."

I wonder about that. I think most companies have strict controls over what software can be installed, because employees have very narrow needs at work. So, if ReactOS is able to run those programs, why not switch rather than be forced to have the painful experience of buying and running Windows Vista?

It seems that ReactOS will not be ready soon, but when it is ready, it seems that a lot of companies would switch.

The project I'm really keeping an eye on right now is ReactOS. http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html It's still alpha right now, but they're expecting to hit beta later this year. The initial beta release is supposed to be around 70% Windows compatible (realistically most things will work even then because the last 30% is stuff that isn't used that much). They're aiming for 100% compatibility of course...probably shortly before 1.0. Once that hits there will be a Windows alternative with absolutely 0 Microsoft code. It has the potential to make them irrelevant.

If they published everything, there would be a completely FOSS Windows clone started within months

... so they think they can make one of the most evil corporations on the planet do a good deed with just a bunch of signatures? (cue evil maniacal laughter)

Evil corporations cannot change. Well, they could change, but they WON'T. Terefore, they must be defeated. I wonder what would happen if all of the 75,000 people signing for XP would have donated 20 dollars to the ReactOS project. $1,500,000 bucks doesn't sound any bad at all.

On the other hand, this democratic exercise can help to open the eyes of the ignorant masses so they can realize that Microsoft won't change.

are the 2008 Server changes made to address the incompatibility issues Vista had with older software? If they are, then great.

What I had originally heard was that Windows 2008 Server and Vista SP1 were going to be based on XP code for compatibility issues in order to make the OS more stable and more compatible. I am not sure how much XP code was used on the new kernel.

Since I support many friends and family members who have Vista machines, I am thinking of buying a new PC with Vista preinstalled on it, and hopefully SP1 to see if it fixes the problems that the original Vista had. As I recall the original XP also had instability issues and compatibility issues and XP SP1 fixed those, and then XP SP2 made even more improvements and made XP more stable and more compatible.

What I hope is that Vista SP1 ends up being what the original Vista had promised. The only thing is the hardware requirements for Vista are 3 times or more the requirements that XP had. So of course upgrading an XP machine to Vista is going to run it slower. Vista on a newer machine made in 2007/2008 should run a lot better than Vista on a 2004/2005/2006 machine.

If all else fails, I hope that ReactOS is developed into a stable build in 2008/2009 some time. People need to keep an eye on that open sourced OS. Once it goes into beta testing, it is in alpha right now, but 0.4 or 0.5 will enter Beta testing and be good enough to use as an alternative to Windows.

Keep in mind that Windows 2008 Server is based on Windows 2003 Server, which was based on Windows XP. Windows Vista was not based on Windows XP, but was a rewrite attempt. Vista and Longhorn are actually too different projects, Vista was a rewrite of Windows, while Longhorn was based on Windows XP. At least that is what I heard.

Well until then there is always reactOS http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html

Another thing MS has to worry about http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html/

Microsoft is not a good example of the standard by which to abide for defining the time it takes to make an OS. They releases OSes at a regular pace, and each os release is done to exploit more the new hardware. It's not a matter of "it took microsoft 20 years so it will take you 5000 years", NO! If you want to make a multitasking, multithreading OS with an interface similar to XP, I would say one year is a reasonable time frame. For vista it's more difficult since there's the 3d cards for them you need to write drivers. YOu also need to write network support for your os to be like microsoft's. But please remember, The microsoft operating system is plagued with politics, negociations, legacy support and all that, and if making an operating system just like what microsoft did is really what you want, Im sure you can do it in less time microsoft did it, if you work on it full time. But about this particular opensource operating system that just want to be exactly like windows, I don't know. Reactos is its name, http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html

Let's face facts, there is tons of software that is not on Linux that people want. How much longer is the Linux community going to ignore this fact?

WTF?

Maybe you've heard of VMWare?

Or, perhaps, Wine?

Or maybe you've noticed that software like Open Office and FireFox is cross platform, running on Win/Mac/Linux ? Toolkits such as GTK Java, Flash and QT allow for easy, straightforward cross-platform development?

Or, perhaps, that there's a whole operating system being put together utilizing all these parts?

Get your head out from under that rock! (or is it... Mom's basement?)

ReactOS will probably hit .4 in 2008. The roadmap lists that as improving the already great kernel compatibility, usable networking, basic audio support, and USB interface device support. If you want to break Microsoft's dominance on the desktop, this is where to look, not Linux.

Have you looked at ReactOS? It's still in alpha at the moment, but it's basically what you're talking about, a "Windows-Compatible, Windows-Alternative-OS"

I too am keeping an eye on their efforts. Something lighter than XP would be fine by me.

I would mod this up, but I think I should explain why it's not off-topic instead.
The guy who wrote this patch actually works on ReactOS. http://www.reactos.org/wiki/index.php/KJK::Hyperion

I knew I remembered the name from somewhere.

Yup. http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html

This has got me so mad I'm on the edge of becoming vigilante. Sigh. How to cause the greatest economical damage to Microsoft in the smallest timeframe while remaining legal? :-/

There *must* be a way... if anyone finds it, I'm in. In the meantime, please donate money to http://reactos.org/ and to encourage development of ReactOS.

Windows XP will last five years after Microsoft cuts off support for it.

Windows Vista will die within five years.

By then, I hope that ReactOS is finished or at least in beta status to compete with the bloated, buggy, and security flawed Microsoft Windows Whatever Microsoft releases next after Vista.