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Microsoft and OLPC Agree To Put XP On the XO Laptop
Apro+im points out a NYTimes report which states that Microsoft and the OLPC project have officially agreed to put Windows XP on the XO laptop. While Microsoft has been working toward this for some time, analysts began to think a deal was more likely after Walter Bender resigned from the project and was replaced by Charles Kane. Former OLPC security developer Ivan Krstic had a lot to say about Windows on the XO as well. From the Times:
"Windows will add a bit to the price of the machines, about $3, the licensing fee Microsoft charges to some developing nations under a program called Unlimited Potential. For those nations that want dual-boot models, running both Windows and Linux, the extra hardware required will add another $7 or so to the cost of the machines, Mr. Negroponte said. The project's agreement with Microsoft involves no payment by the software giant, and Microsoft will not join One Laptop Per Child's board. 'We've stayed very pure,' Mr. Negroponte said.
If Microsoft really cared about education so much, why wouldn't they just give Windows to the OLPC project for free? $3 may be a lot when you multiply it by the numbers of copies that will be sold, but that's still less than 1/30 the price of a retail copy of Windows, and their brand image would probably improve as a result.
For those nations that want dual-boot models, running both Windows and Linux, the extra hardware required will add another $7 or so to the cost of the machines
Why does dual boot require extra hardware??
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
to run an OS MSFT will stop supporting in 45 days? the OS will run horribly as the hardware isn't fast enough to support XP, and the Interface isn't up to running on a small screen. Not to mention if you ever have any problems and re install you run into WGA activation which requires internet access which may or may not be available to the region in which the system has been deployed.
Can someone tell me why this makes sense again? or is it more of MSFT buying customers as they can't earn them through capitalistic competition.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Now, even poor kids can learn to hate M$
Well, so much for a really cool idea. Microsoft will go to any length to have it's shitty OS on anything.
"I bow to no man" - Riddick
I for one was not looking forward to welcoming a new generation of young, creative, inquisitive, independent minded developing country overlords.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
Yep, as pure as the bride wearing a white dress for her wedding when she's six months pregnant.
That was a close call. For a while there was a threat that emerging countries could grow into the computer world with a fast, reliable and stable platform to develop on.
Now we drag them down to our level!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I used to be a Negroponte fan, but since he allowed the MS move in this project he designed, I am no longer. No, it's not because I'm anti-MS, it's because I thought that this project wasn't a place for competition with commercial software. If MS wants to help out, the should do what Steve Jobs did with OS X: Offer it for Free. No deals, no licensing BS.
Why does dual boot require extra hardware??
More storage probably.
If so, that means shorter battery life - even when the memory isn't being used. (Even if you turn off the clocking, leakage current is a honking big fraction of power consumption with the recent generations of semiconductors.)
So by changing the machine to handle Windows (and raising its price) they've also reduced one aspect of its functionality under a free OS.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
this could extend XP's life a little longer until a non-shitty version of Windows comes out? (insert joke here) I realize we could be waiting awhile. I use Linux for most things but I just can't get away from my PC gaming!
We figured out a long time ago that it's easier to elect seven judges than to elect 132 legislators.
I had been looking to pick up one of these, either from ebay or the buy one get one program, if they ever started it up again to raise some money. Nevermore. Sell outs.
This story is useless without benchmarks.
Grandpa: My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is not a porn star.
What? That's totally ridiculous. It means that the XO becomes nothing more than a vehicle for transfer of money from 3rd world children to Microsoft.
Whoever thought that idea up at OLPC has shit for brains.
Microsoft should be *PAYING* for the privilege of getting its O/S installed on a machine to which it contributed absolutely nothing during development, and which will become an instrument of propaganda for Microsoft among the children of the world.
OLPC guys, you've really dropped the ball on this one, and forgotten that the XO was not intended as a normal western product for exploitation of consumers.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
There's plenty of pr0n on the Web showing this kind of purity.
Rich And Stupid is not so bad as Working For Rich And Stupid.
I wonder if it means Microsoft is prepared to support XP for at least another 10 years. Developing countries may be able to pay $200/laptop, but not $200/laptop/year. If a school goes with XP solution and some critical patch, such as a revision of IPV6 support, is needed, will they have to buy new laptops to run Windows 2015 or whatever?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
If you read Ivan Krstic's blog post, he doesn't say officially supported or any such thing. He says "moving to" Windows XP. This is the worst OS on the planet for Education... unless you mean education in how to use a computer in order to pay Microsoft later.
So, then what was this project about? eBooks? No, it has been proven over and over again that the eBook route offers less content and at a higher price than paper. Remember that the content is what costs money today not the printing, which is subsidized in the Third World. Empowerment (with Windows)? This isn't even a serious question.
All of those who said they supported the project for "Education" but really thought it was a cool Linux project... that is those who didn't know anything about Education in the first place have been handed a Giant Shit Sandwich by Microsoft. At least someone had an education for this Boondoggle!!!
J.
Although it is being presented as Microsoft doing some good contributed to the project, I wonder if we could compare Gates Foundation money will flow to OLPC after the XP version is for sale. That could be the kind of non-profit pressure that would make the change of heart towards adoption of Microsoft software seem more understandable.
Comparing the money involved, OLPC = $200, OLPC + XP = $207, and Windows XP Home = $199. Hard to really explain why there is such a desire for Microsoft to cut the costs so deep just to get involved in this project. I'm sure it's not corporate altruism.
closing gates and not opening them. There is nothing philanthropic about enslaving people with money.
Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
$3? I wonder what they want for Vista... $0.50?
technical writing / development
granted, it does have a 4 gig hard drive compared to the 1GBytes from the XO. However, I have not looked at the specifics to see if the AMD Geode is any less than a 333 pentium II.
It is a very interesting story indeed. The blog by Ivan Krstic (link in submission) is well worth looking at too. He has some very forthright comments to make, including his response to a certain Richard Stallmans comment regarding the XP inclusion. Krstic doesn't seem to be a rabid anti-Windows fanatic, but he does oppose Windows being installed on the OLPC machines - while I'm unequivocally enthusiastic about Sugar being ported to every OS out there, I'm absolutely opposed to Windows as the single OS that OLPC offers for the XO
Awful UID - but I have been here ages...
"The pact with Microsoft is not an exclusive agreement. The Linux version will still be available, and the organization will encourage outside software developers to create a version of the projectâ(TM)s educational software, called Sugar, that will run on Windows." So they can pay more if they want Windows, big deal.
Also: "they often see familiarity with Windows-based computing as a marketable skill that can improve job prospects.". I hope they aren't all this stuppid.
I Can't believe people, even inside Microsoft, can see this as a good thing. This is like McDonalds bullying and lobbying to make the BigMac the preferred choice for UN's world food programme, and succeeding. And having people like Negroponte not mad about it just makes me think there's little to no hope.
Off the OLPC website:
"XO is built from free and open-source software. Our commitment to software freedom gives children the opportunity to use their laptops on their own terms. While we do not expect every child to become a programmer, we do not want any ceiling imposed on those children who choose to modify their machines. We are using open-document formats for much the same reason: transparency is empowering. The children--and their teachers--will have the freedom to reshape, reinvent, and reapply their software, hardware, and content."
OLPC should've said, "You're welcome to buy as many as you want with our standard OS, then install on them whatever you like."
congratulations, it's dead. Can OLPC be saved from Negroponte?
How we know is more important than what we know.
Seems odd that getting people indoctrinated into MS culture is so much more valuable than the hit to your reputation from a shitty user experience. Face it, while it might run XP, trying to run a program and XP must totally suck on that little thing.
They are quite confident of their monopoly it would seem.
There will be (hopefully) a million kids growing up thinking 'Windows is sooooo sloooow'
If i was in charge i don't think i would let windows only versions ship as then they think the same about you.
Look, even if the Gates Foundation did donate money, there is no need to train kids to use MS products. Throughout your life when has ever a MS product really helped you? Sure DOS was Ok, but wait, you have to learn Windows now, thats not too hard, then Windows 95 comes out and changes everything, you go out and buy a faster computer and relearn Windows, then Windows 98 comes out, you figure its time for another computer and go buy one and spend a bit more time relearning Windows. Then ME comes out, and if you are lucky you skip it and then buy a new computer relearn everything and get XP. Notice a pattern here? The same could be said about Office, and all those skills you learned using all the Office programs prior to 2007 are now useless as Office 2007 totally changed the UI without an option to use the old one. All the while paying for the "privilege" of using MS's software.
MS's software may be a quick way to get things done, but in the long run, you are just a number, and that number is how much money you are willing to spend on MS's products.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
i have been teaching the up curricula for some time now to some kids and theirs parents as professional formation, feeling the most of the time that I'm selling them the msft technology instead of teaching them something about the professional use of the computer.
if you join this to the olpc project you'll get marketing for the future leaders of the developed countries of tomorrow.
Essentially, this can win/win Microsoft. If few adopt the project then so what? They will have shit-canned a rival to the Classmate. If it takes off, then a host of new addicts will come back to Microsoft and pay some day. In the end Negroponte's dream is sufficiently squashed. With so much of the world embracing OSS and many of those involved in the project pushing it too the OLPC has become less desirable. Who's laughing? Microsoft and Intel.
I'm pretty sure the cocksucker who wrote the article doesn't really get free software. I think the point is that many individuals, such as myself for example, want for themselves a platform including development tools that are entirely open and free as in both freedom and beer. I want to learn by looking at other people's code and I want to create without paying fees everywhere for every tool I need with someone else deciding the parameters or tools with which I am allowed to create. That's why I choose, for myself, to participate in the world of free software.
As for kids around the world they may or may not decide they want that for themselves. However, the freedom of free software certainly empowers them to create and learn in any way they choose to without the cost and limitations set by a greedy foreign entity who has a fundamental conflict of interest with the freedom of individuals. It would be arguably unethical to subjugate these students, as so many negligent IT professionals have done for their companies, to the closed blood sucking world of Microsoft. A single potent example is Microsoft's persistence to keep standards closed, even when they're faking making them open, so that THEY can control how much you pay to see your data and documents. They have abundant engineering talent to fix that problem but choose not to in order to control their customers.
The self-serving asshole who wrote the article tried to set up Stallman as having some abstract political agenda that Stallman puts first. The author misses the point entirely. The empowerment of free software enables especially people with limited resources to explore their own potential, if they choose to do so.
I mean the XO got a 433 MHz processor.
Add XP...ouch...
Add security... ouch...
Put it in developing countries with little to no knowledge about the intricate rituals needed to download porn succesfully without getting web-STD's from it....*relentless "The Passion"-screaming for 3 hours*
Sorry, Negroponte you've sold your soul. You've sold out your once inspiring dream.
Sorry, this is the pure outrage: You fucking suck.
We believed, we helped, YOU SUCK.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
"'We've stayed very pure,' Mr. Negroponte said."
i'v said it before and i'll say it again, you can't get a little bit pregnant.
As the parent mentions, this isn't OLPC 'dumping' Linux. They are just giving the countries who will be buying these things another option for Windows. Probably a waste on that hardware, but, really, I do believe some countries probably *want* Windows on the laptops. They probably feel that if they are going to educate kids about computers, the kids should get some exposure to Windows. I don't think that's entirely unreasonable.
I don't want people to take away from this that I am a MS fanboi - I very much am not. But, why shouldn't the purchasing countries have the option to get Windows if they want it? I hope people don't totally abandon OLPC in terms of quitting the development of software for the Linux-based SugarOS, in protest against this. This just makes it that much more important that the Open Source/Free Software communities continue to work with OLPC and make the Free Software available for it the best they can. In fact, I have a bit of a prediction. I think this whole thing will fall apart of it's own accord when Microsoft can't actually get Windows XP to run decently on the XO, so as long as the Free Software developers don't walk away in protest, I bet they will end up using the Linux based software in the end.
There is only, mainly, one question I walk away from this with, however - from what I've seen of SugarOS so far, I don't really think it matter much, from a user's perspective, what is running underneath it (what I mean by that is, while the laptops might be slower and more prone to crash with Windows [or maybe not], the *user interface experience* will be the same - that is to say, all the kids will see is Sugar, right?). So, I guess I wonder, from OLPC's standpoint, *why* they would bother putting the Windows XP kernel underneath of it, if the kids are just basically going to be using the same SugarOS and the applications developed for it. Why not use the Linux kernel which is better to begin with than the XP kernel, and has already, and continues to be, tuned just for the OLPC hardware?
"I'm sure it's not corporate altruism."
It's as "altruistic" as putting a steak in a beartrap.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Alternatives?
button still do exactly that?
How depressing....
expandfairuse.org
One Botnet Node Per Child
It seems to me that the XO laptop already has plenty of parts that have cost associated with them, manufacturing, etc. The fact that one piece of software is licensed might be a philosophical shift from the software perspective, but not in terms of the whole device. The main objective is low cost, not free. Free can only happen when you already have enough laptops around to spread the freedom between. Low cost is what is important while you are those getting devices out there. If Windows is the most cost-effective way to get an operating system together, then so be it.
The main concern is whether Microsoft's (or any other part manufacturer) has enough of a monopoly on the production of a part that adds risk to long-term pricing in the manufacturing process. Ideally, the whole thing could be turned over to local plants for building and/or assembly of components. If a manufacturer gets in the way, then the whole XO project could be put at risk. The other end of things is when optional extras start to add significantly to the cost. How much will children in developing nations be charged for their use of Visual Studio to innovate new software?
I don't mean to break up the pitchfork party, but I wanted to share a couple of thoughts that occurred to me...
I'll preface this whole thing by saying that I don't love/hate any specific operating system. I've used most of the popular ones: Windows, Linux (Red Hat, SuSE, Fedora, and Slackware), FreeBSD (pre 5 is my fav.), OS X, etc. I run all three major OSes at home (Win/Linux/OS X). I come from a lone line of both IT consulting and programming, so I've had experience with Windows enterprise networks, BSD clusters, X-Serv farms, etc.
It's been my experience that each operating system has its place in a specific environment. Each one has its strengths and weaknesses when applied to a scenario. Instead of one choosing an operating system based on a visceral reaction, one should find the one that is the best solution to the particular problem.
Now, I have no doubt that Microsoft wanted to get its foot in the door and draw a whole populous of people over to its side. It's a great corporate strategy; tap a whole group of impressionable people and introduce them to your product. Now, when they grow up, they'll be used to and comfortable with your product, and will want to use that instead of something new.
However, I think there's something else here as well. There *is* a certain value to putting Windows on these machines: it's what the majority of the world uses. Linux is no longer that obscure "red-headed stepchild" operating system, but it's far away from broad public adoption. There are many reasons for this, none of which I believe are relevant to this argument. The idea here is that you'd be hard-pressed to find even a Linux evangelist from admitting that Windows holds the world OS marketshare. So why on *earth* shouldn't these children be introduced to something that the vast majority of this world uses? The experience they'll walk away with will allow them to use a "real" computer with ease once they get into that environment.
I understand the counter-argument: Linux is an open-source operating system, and it's not adopted because people are simply either not familiar with it, are afraid of it, or are willfully ignorant of what it provides. This is partially true; be that as it may, I don't see why these impressionable folk should be the test-bed, or the seeds, for a change in the world. Why? Because in the end, the places they'll go will most likely not be using Linux, and they'll be at a disadvantage.
Do I think the world needs to use Linux more? Absolutely. Do I think that the OLPC is the best way to do it? No.
There are other good things about this, too: The variety of applications that could become available for the machine has exponentially increased. Windows is a popular platform to develop on; so popular, in fact, that the majority of software developers don't develop on any other platform. Given that the OLPC will now run Windows, many more developers can jump on the bandwagon and develop intuitive, fun, and educational programs that could influence these kids for a lifetime.
I know many of you will disagree with me; that's fine, I expect that. Just remember that I don't intend be a troll; I simply wanted to share my thoughts on this matter.
enuf said.
I suspect it will show something like:
msgbox ("This aplication has performed an ilegal opeartion an will now close")
close()
Read my blog you know you want to
Dear Dr. Negroponte
If you're getting in bed with someone you shouldn't be in bed with, then you're not staying pure, even if no payment is involved.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
The best way to beat something is to let them have the choice. They can choose to use Linux or not choose to. Either way, all of the negative energy because people have been given a choice seems strange to me. First, you claim you want Linux to be an option to buy, now that its Windows thats an option (rather than the default for once), you complain. Choice is a dual-edged sword. Not everyone wants to be a part of the "free as in speech" camp, just like not everyone wants to pay for software.
Besides, I know people would claimed foul if MS gave it away for free, so Linux DOES have an advantage here.
Regards,
MBC1977,
Folks, this guy is +42 Extra Super Insightful.
Dual-boot will be developed to pacify some OLPC supporters. It will never ship.
Likewise, Sugar will be ported to Windows. It too will never ship. Nobody wants it: not the we-want-Windows government officials, not the free software fans, and certainly not Microsoft. Look at Java and JavaScript if you want to know how Microsoft feels about somebody slapping a portable API or ABI over top of the Microsoft-controlled ones.
and fuck OLPC.
it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
Somehow I doubt it. Think the Gates Foundation would be dumb enough to only give to the OLPC project if the OLPC agreed to load MS software? Wouldn't that violate the terms of a 501(c)3 foundation? (and cost them their tax exempt status.)
No surprise here, really. A long time back it was announced that the XO was being partly redesigned for the specific purpose of being able to load XP lite on it. What is surprising is that MS won't be paying anything to OLPC, but will be COLLECTING instead.
What did surprise me was coming out with XP on the EeePC. That got redesigned so that XP lite could fit on it. When I got mine, I considered XP, as it was the same price, and I figured I could dual boot it. But then I figured it'd have worse battery life, be slower.
After all, aren't they in the process of completely dropping XP from their development pathway? If that's for real, then this XP on OLPC is a load of bollocks, and should be dropped ASAP.
I speculate that the move to Microsoft was always going to happen. The talk of Linux at the start and during development was to build a positive image for the project. The continued Linux noise kept the image up and let the brand build. Then when it comes to crunch they switch to Windows. All that happens now is they tough out a couple of posts on /. and Stallman's blog.
The real purpose now becomes clear. With their highly regarded new laptops, a couple of goals can be achieved. The first and least important is a new tax Microsoft can reap from the third world, but it is just a fringe benefit for the usual robber barons.
The real purpose is making sure that all those new computer users are kept in as controlled a box as possible and know no different. If the projects real goal was to promote a strong computing education, based on maintaining their new laptops and tinkering with the source, then why don't we see projects like that in Western countries? The organisations involved have the money and political clout to make that happen if they really believe it. They clearly do not as this action proves. As for saying having Linux will cost extra, I have never heard more blatant double speak. This is just a way to pre-empt Linux and free software in the places it can do the most good.
With a man like Negroponte in charge can we really be surprised? Wasn't his brother one those behind the whole 9-11/Afghanistan/Iraq business? Also the project came out the World Economic Forum, aren't these the same robber barons that keep the third world down? With these gangsters in charge how could we expect anything else.
This reminds me of a famous story...
A scorpion and a small fox were standing at the side of a river. A storm was coming and both had to cross the river to safety. The scorpion couldn't make the trip on his own. So, he started bargaining with the fox, asking the fox to carry him across the river. "I'll die if you don't help me," the scorpion said.
The fox said, "If I put you on my back and carry you to safety, you'll sting me with your deadly poison." The scorpion replied, promising the fox that he needed to get to safety and would never hurt the other animal. The fox agreed and let the scorpion jump onto his back.
About half-way across the river, the scorpion stung the fox. With deadly venom surging through his veins, the fox asked, "Why did you sting me? I'm going to die! You promised me!" The scorpion replied, "I'm sorry. I guess it's just my nature."
I'm not so worried about this latest power grabbing move from MS. I mean we all know this is about maintaining market share aggressively in the face of cheap and nimble competition.
All MS are effectively doing is giving away a pig of an OS that will run like a slug in treacle compared to the free alternative. That's bound to persuade some people to move to Linux.
Load two OSs and you need more disk space to do anything useful.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
The .NET framework is not memory nor CPU hunger and I think it will work as any application on Windows XP.
Office 2007 may not because of the 1gig or hi-definition resources.
I am an absolute Unix head. My favorite word processor is vi. Yet, I really don't see the big friggin' problem here. The idea is to get these machines into the hands of kids. If putting Windows on these things makes third world bureaucrats happy, let's do it. Windows is an option and not a requirement. You have to pay extra for it, and it requires more hardware (more memory, etc.). But, many governments in the third world look at this computer as a toy foisted upon them by the Western world who knows better. It's one of the reasons why OLPC was having so many problems getting these computers into the hands of children. The West get real computers, they get toys -- just another unjust exercise in imperialism.
Yes, it is ridiculous, but there's three hundred years of Western imperialism that we have to live down, and it colors lots of the interactions between the Third World and the West. Flexibility is the key. Listen to your customers. Don't lecture them about what they need. If they want Windows and Microsoft is willing, and if it prevents Microsoft from attempting their own cheap computer project that will undermine OLPC, then this is great news.
And if you've given money to the OLPC money based on it's goals of openness? Refunds?
I'm just amazed at how they can try and sell this as not affecting the project much. They might as well add a stinking great padlock to each machine and give the keys to MS.
Oh - and think how much funny the kiddies will have infecting each other with whatever virus/rootkit/botnet/..... walks right through the rock solid MS OS.
This isn't a just a more-durable-than-average laptop, it was really made to last. Too bad they switched to M$ when they already had a custom distro, custom apps, and great networking. What are they thinking?
This is not a signature.
I see the Russian mob happily contributing $3 per laptop to the project now,
using the Moblin stack that will ultimately surpass the XO no matter what's running on it.
I don't think copyright is a big hindrance in most of the countries where XO laptops are expected to be popular.
Microsoft is just thinking "Instead of letting 1/3 of these run Windows for free, let's collect 3 dollars from ALL of them, further our brand, and look doing it."
It's sort of a no-brainer when you're only accountable for the short-term bottom line.
Operator, give me the number for 911!
A lot of people have just wasted a vast amount of time contributing software to this device. They could have said this was the plan from the start and maybe those people could have concentrated on hardware drivers or interesting Windows software for it. Instead an awful lot of man years of contributed effort is wasted by this moronic decision (no, not the decision to switch to XP. The decision to, for years, lie about what direction they were going, apparently to garner publicity).
I really am sickened by this.
Plain old regular Linux runs fast too. Sugar is another matter entirely. It's a fucking overgrown script, and it even uses D-BUS (an RPC mechanism, also known as "D-COM for Linux") for that extra special slowness.
.net of the Linux world.
Sugar and Python are the Vista and
This is the last nail, but you have to give him credit for hammering it in from inside the coffin.
Did anybody here actually try Sugar? I'd have replaced it with ms dos in a heart beat. And XP is clearly superior. If only they'd have been smart and initially went with some type of xubuntu derivative, or something that made some kind of rational sense, we'd have not lost yet another battle to the corporate monopoly.
It's not that Windows is better. It's just that Microsoft is smarter than the passionate FOSS community who is apparently stubborn and arrogant, and completely unaware of what is usable or not, Sugar being an AMAZING example.
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
One Lame PC.
I have an OLPC, and my kids love it.
I'm so very disappointed by this announcement. It goes against everything that I thought OLPC stood for.
Ten bucks says that, within the year, MS will either donate a pile of money to the MIT Media Lab, or Negroponte will be working for them as some sort of 'special consultant'.
There is no technical or educational reason to put Windows on the OLPC. Since this isn't full desktop Windows, Windows doesn't work any better on these machines than Linux, it doesn't enable any educationally relevant software to be run, and it doesn't enable any relevant drivers to be installed.
It's odd that Negroponte accuses open source developers of being blinded by ideology; the only person I see being blinded by ideology is him, and he is really screwing the OLPC project because of it.
They had this offer, buy two, one for you, one for a kid.
I would gladly buy machines with Linux for the kids, but I would never in my life sponsor a machine with Windows on it.
What happens now with the educational software based upon Seymor Paperts theories?
Does XP support the 802.11s (mesh routing) by the way?
Microsoft and its harmful policy need to be stopped!
Seriously, how did the OLPC not recognize this as a monopoly solidification ploy in the most obvious way? The real story here is where's the really money being funneled?
What's up with this box everyone has to think inside of or outside of? Why does there have to be a box?
'We've stayed very pure,' Mr. Negroponte said.
That's like saying you got caught in bed with a hooker but were only talking.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
The virus seeks to perpetuate itself
You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
There's a Pulitzer in here somewhere. This smells of corruption, of one hand washing another, of deals behind secretive doors. If I were a young journalist student graduating, I would be following the money trail of Mr Negroponte & Co.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Absolutely. Sugar, the interface is not that snappy, but it should appeal to kids, which is what this program _WAS_ all about. Sugar was also designed for mesh networking with other OLPCS to share videos, tam tam projects, codes, writing, whatever. With XP, you would lose the mesh network feature and now have to navigate network through network explorer?? I don't think that's a win. Clearly having XP available for OLPC means western consumers can actually use one. I am actually looking forward to getting XP on mine so I can use it. I don't care about hacking on Sugar anymore. Maybe OLPC is trying to survive... generate revenue through western consumers with XP machines to continue R&D but ship Linux versions to 3rd world countries. I hope so, but I don't know. But back to my original topic: Why has Apple been silent? Sometimes inaction speaks as loudly as action. In the case of Apple, who gloriously donated thousands of Macs to schools in the US, they could've ported OSX to it easily (look at the iPhone). They could've saved the project and be seen as a savior. I think most people here would prefer OSX on it than XP, am I right, even though they are both closed. Of course, it would eat away at Apple's high margins and no, we don't want that. I think it all comes down to is all corporations are financially motivated. Apple and Microsoft aren't all that different, although they acted differently in this case.
so I can get Qt or Qtopia running on it and make a sweet little portable device.
"Recursive bipartite matching"- try it!
I can't believe this. I was actually seriously considering buying one of these, wiping it and installing Deban. Well, I just lost all respect for this project, I'll just stick with my System76 Darter.
Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home?
That's the thing, is that, there's an aweful lot of children's software written for Windows, games, educational titles, and what not. There just isn't much out there for Linux for kids. Now, if you could play games on a $200 PC, that's not too shabby at all.
This is my sig.
Why would anyone even those in the developing world want an OS that is 7 years old and isn't going to be supported for very much longer? Add the fact that it's a closed system, there are no applications designed specifically for it and it takes more hardware to make it work even remotely ok. Seems like a really stupid idea to take up the offer.
I stopped being a Negroponte fan a while back. The OLPC is an amazing program that has been destroyed by his bad business decisions. He has fought from the very beginning against providing the OLPC to 1st world countries. So instead of simply selling them to anyone for $200 and letting the economies of scale drive the price down, he has doomed the project from ever reaching the goal of a $100 laptop. By forcing 1st world customers (who actually have money) to pay $400 in the give one get one, he has eliminated the vast majority of potential buyers. So what if he allows Windows on the system? It will never be successful until they stop fighting market forces.
The sending of this message pretty much inconveniences everyone involved.
To me, the most exciting part of OLPC is the development of a completely free and open stack of learning software. The hardware for this round of computers will eventually break down and need to be replaced. But the software can continually be improved upon, and contributed to freely by anyone. Ten years from now the hardware will be even cheaper. The software is what will make these devices useful for learning.
When you look to the long term, it is a great advantage to have all the software be free, all the way down to the OS. This ensures that it can always be reused and built upon. If Windows is at the core of the system, there will be too many chances to rely on Windows specific hooks and to use commercial, Windows-based software to solve various problems. Even if doing so is useful in the short term, it will only weaken the project in the long run by making it dependent on the companies who control the proprietary code.
I don't deny that I dislike Windows. If using Windows could somehow cut the price by a third and get the OLPC into the hands of more kids, I would gladly put my preference aside. But the idea that they're making the laptops more expensive while moving away from the project's vision is just sad to see.
I'm new to OLPC, so I won't pretend to understand and appreciate all the political and financial issues at play here, but I am well qualified to offer a technical perspective. (btw, I'm not a Microsoft lover or hater... just someone interested in spreading knowledge).
I am the development manager for a very complex commercial software application, and yes we develop predominately on Windows.
Let me say, absolutely, and without doubt that working in Windows does NOT mean your creativity is inhibited, or what you can accomplish is limited. I see genius done everyday!
In general if you can program in Linux, then you can program in Windows; but the converse is not always true (at least not efficiently). Maybe some see this as a weed-out program, but personally I think it is snobby, and loses focus of the core principle; Providing tools to kids so that they can learn, develop, and expand their horizons. Maybe this moves expands the amount of contributors.
I don't know if this is a good move or not, in the long run. But I'd like for people to put aside any feelings about MS, and remember the kids...
You are probably right (usually nothing exciting happens). But, are not the US financial woes a bit more fundamental than lack of competition with Europe? Isn't the problem that the US economy is based on assumptions that production actually occurs inside the US - whereas this is less and less true?
Ever since the dollar has fallen, US manufacturers have been breathing a big sigh of relief. For all of his other faults, Bush's Presidency has seen US Exports rise to a staggering contribution of nearly 15% of GDP. Unfortunately, this success is being drowned out by high oil prices. All we need now is for the next President to continue the track towards free trade, let the dollar continue a modest but perhaps more gradual decline, but also keep in place those other incentives needed to help ensure a transition towards a smarter energy economy. Once the USA gets off of foreign oil, we Americans will be an export juggernaut but also armed to the teeth with a ton of new alternative energy solutions.
This is my sig.
It's a pity I haven't found the button on mine to even do that on linux.
You know that feeling you got when Walter Bender left the project over a disagreement with Nicholas? That "Wozniak has left the building" feeling? Turns out we were right.
I think we can safely say that this has nothing to education of the third world or software idealism or even free market economics but is simply a nasty little case of cronyism and under the table deals. Nicholas is a board member and OLPC is a nonprofit. Last time I checked board members of nonprofits don't draw a salary.
This is the thing I hate about our current system. See, it would be one thing if they just flat out stated what they were doing, "It's in our corporate best interests to make sure that everyone learns to use our software, so we're going to make this cheap laptop and put Windows on it and sell it to third world kids." I would actually have a little grudging respect for that.
But no, once again the system has eaten up idealism and spat out lies and manipulation. Most people involved in this project were idealists who thought they were bringing something good and pure into the world. Many of them were devoted to open source. And they just got fucked, and the motherfuckers who did it to them are laughing all the way to the bank.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
If Negroponte was unsatisfid with sugar, why not just ditch it for a normal linux distribution? At least that would preserve the openness, inexpensiveness, and allow the OLPC project control. It's not like the sugar project and windows xp were the only options.
From your own link:
"OLPC should be philosophically pure about its own machines. Being a non-profit that leverages goodwill from a tremendous number of community volunteers for its success and whose core mission is one of social betterment, it has a great deal of social responsibility. It should not become a vehicle for creating economic incentives for a particular vendor. It should not believe the nonsense about Windows being a requirement for business after the children grow up. Windows is a requirement because enough people grew up with it, not the other way around. If OLPC made a billion people grow up with Linux, Linux would be just dandy for business. And OLPC shouldn't make its sole OS one that cripples the very hardware that supposedly set the project's laptops apart: released versions of Windows can neither make good use of the XO power management, nor its full mesh or advanced display capabilities."
(bold added by me)
I hope MS pays you by the quantity of your shilling rather than the quality.
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
Go ahead and argue over software; however don't let that stop hardware and sofware getting into the hands of developing nations to teach them, whatever they're being taught on. The more experience you garner, the more easily your skills are transferrable. Just get them started.
Ok, I'll bite. C'mon! Get on board with the real Negroponte - let's all become self-aggrandizing douche pails who sell out while shafting both the donors and, of course, the very reason that the program exists - the poor. Screw them all!! I want to become a greedy sleaze-ball too. Where do I go and how much blood do I require to sign up??
*** Don't be dull.***
This has worked out very well for MS. They get to suffocate a threat (OLPC) and everyone winds up hating the suffocated threat (OLPC) instead of hating MS. I'd have to say MS made the right decision here.
It's not that they don't care about the kids, but their survival is at stake. Their survival is always at stake.
I saw Windows XP on Eee PC at the Cebit. It was pretty awful: a standard desktop OS on an 480x800 screen. When you opened the Internet explorer 40 percent of the screen was filled with the GUI and the toolbars. As a matter of fact XP cannot run properly on a screen that does not provide 600x800 because some dialog boxes are bigger than that. If Windows should be an alternative for these PC they have to change XP. Are they willing to put a reasonable amount of development ressources in an out-of-date OS?
i dont get it... Jobs offered them free use of MacOS X which would be insanly better, iPhones and iPods run a semi stripped down version of OSX but it's very fast and 'user' friendly even on slow hardware.
Aside from the fact that OLPC is a scam, of course. But I guess St. Nick means 'pure' in a "we will never be found guilty of fraud" kind of way... so yeah, I guess OLPC is "pure" in that sense. Niggerponte's project now is just a shell of what it used to be. Rather than liberating the developing world they're enslaving them to Microsoft. What a shame.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
You soul is over there Mr. Negroponte. In the light. Now, just out of reach. Foolish man, Microsoft has never helped anyone but itself.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
OK Nick
You sold out... and your proud that you recieved NOTHING from MS for doing it?
OK, that is just plain stupid. At least when I sell my soul to my employer, they pay me.
I don't see why anyone should be surprised. The OLPC was clearly designed as a free R&D project from the beginning. Not free as in speech, but free as in, "hey, lets CALL it a charity. That way we don't have to fork out money for our R&D". When the OLPC was listed out at $100 I said it was way too expensive. I went on line and found all of the components to build a hand powered computer for $89. Single Unit Pricing. No, this wouldn't get you an x86 processor, or an 800x600 screen, but is that REALLY Necessary? The OLPC was billed as being for education. Do you really need a late 90's to early 2000's x86 to accomplish that goal? Definitely not. Do you really need WiFi? Definitely not. Do you need cameras? No. The whole design was clearly built around the idea of trying out new low power devices for later sale in the 1st world.
Honestly the OLPC isn't any better for it's stated goal than a $130 Nintendo DS would be if it came with a dev cart. If they really wanted to make a $200 computer, they would have been better off having Nintendo make a new flavor of DS that was not quite compatible, had an Black and White screen, and had an SD slot instead of a cartridge slot. It wouldn't have broken Nintendos 1st world market, yet it would have been just as useful, and less expensive than the OLPC.
I'm not sure if this is a disagreement with what you said or a clarification, but personally I don't think Microsoft cares about training these users at all. Microsoft wouldn't have given it a second thought if OLPC didn't take the initiative. Even if these kids are trained on Windows, it's unlikely they'll ever be a huge source of income for Microsoft or any other proprietary businesses, compared with the money made in developed places.
I think what frightens Microsoft, given that the children will get trained with or without Microsoft, is the possibility of any other platform ending up with some kind of dominance through popularity in third world countries. Microsoft's dominance comes through its monopolistic control and lock-in practices, and if non-Microsoft platforms become too dominant in third world countries, it'll almost certainly propagate to more developed countries in one form or another, reducing the control that Microsoft has. (ie. Customers will be demanding the ability to use open protocols, file formats, etc, so they can properly interact with those in third world countries.) Such a prospect has caused Microsoft's rather ruthless marketing and management machine to jump up and do whatever's necessary to stop that from happening, even though it might mean using subversive tactics to undermine the OLPC programme.
Actually I have no doubt that many people in Microsoft, probably including most at ground level, have nothing but the best intentions and fully believe that Windows is a good thing for OLPC, since that's what you tend to do when you're embedded in such a corporate atmosphere. I also have no doubt that there are subversive tactics and strategic decisions going on around this at a marketing and management level.
Do you guys really think this whole thing is some goofy conspiracy? Come on. Let's put this into context:
I am a third world leader. A company is trying to sell me educational laptops for about half the price of regular laptops. I ask about why we are using laptops instead of getting old text books. They say that they will provide a technology education for students as well, so they can compete in the world market. But wait. Computers in the US don't run like this. If this isn't good enough for the American students, why are you selling it to me? Are you implying that our students can't use the same tools as Americans? Why are you selling me a product built completely out of free software. Since I am a third world leader, I likely find the idea of free software to mean it's of lesser or commodity value. I think it is an issue of pride. Why, American computers run Windows. If we want to compete with them, our children need to know how to use Windows, as well.
I think it makes sense if you assume that the people in third world countries might want their populace to be computer literate to attract jobs, not just so that their students master the art of using some goofy inapplicable children's interface that has no relation to regular computers built on the high minded ideals of Richard Stallman.
If I were a third world leader, I would likely respect Bill Gates a lot more than Richard Stallman. Think about it. The poor dream of being rich, successful, equal- not alternative, counterculture. The counterculture is a luxury of the wealthy. These people likely don't see the same infinite potential in open source so much as they see themselves receiving something which is valueless as it comes at no cost. Realize for a second that people in the third world will not share the same sense of blind religious idealism about this as American and European IT professionals and college students.
For this reason, Negroponte is able to push more OLPC's in more nations which might otherwise go for a competing solution that runs Windows, or something very similar. For this reason, both Microsoft and Negroponte's goals are reached- and the OLPC still ships with a linux system that the students can use if preferred.
It makes a lot more sense when you imagine that there are people out there who don't quite *get* the whole free software religion. There are quite a few, believe it or not.
If you think that the whole point of this project was to shove free software down the throats of every single child in the world, then you probably don't really care about the educational value of this: children's curriculum will revolve around much more than software, anyway. Most will never look at nor care about the source code but rather the math and science and language tools. Perhaps what you really care about is pushing your beliefs on those who can not afford to accept otherwise. This is not question of good vs. evil or of conspiracies; it's just about choice and practicality and whether or not a laptop is really a viable alternative to a child than a book.
OLPC Principle #5: Free and Open Source: Give me a free and open environment and I will learn and teach with joy.
The hardest thing to do is live up to your own rhetoric.
Most MS "partners" eventually got bitten by their deals, so the clock is ticking for OLPC.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
i guess i should stop trying to get them to ship that laptop i ordered through the BOGO back in December. unless one of you would kindly figure out how to wipe out whatever windows crap ends up on there?
If you're going to get emerging markets hooked on an OS, may as well do it with on that works. Granted, MS won't support it for too long, but still . . .
The Internet is generally stupid
So what happens when some poor kids out in the middle of nowhere suddenly get a load of virus shit and spyware breaking the O/S? Will MS we flying out to with free copies or McAfee or Symantec? Also these kids have next to nothing to start with, some days they barely have enough to eat, so when they want some software that word of mouth has got around is pretty neat, are they going to be buying licenses from Adobe or MS etc? No, so local bloke will either hold them so ransom for the next 15 years over the software they got from him or someone will get some knocked off gear and next thing you know, the entire country is running on pirated software, of course M$ won't give a stuff so long as they are running pirated stuff on Windows, they have 'em hooked! At least if it's Linux the software will be free so no nasty, vile US mega-corp can go marching in and demanding these kids hand all the laptops back, that have dodgy software on them. M$ have to get their f**king snout in the trough, f**k you Gates and the dog you rode in on!!! I can tolerate M$ and Gates, even that loud-mouth, chair-chucking prat, Ballmer, but this just.....deep breaths.....
Windows guys please stop pissing on everyone and the Linux guys stop pissing in the wind, hoping to hit Windows guys!
Or did you think they got the chips at cost? Or the manufacturer assembled the machine at cost? Or that nobody at the foundation was paid for their time?
In an ideal world, MS would have given it for free I agree, but don't single them out for making money on the 3rd world in this way.
As a Mac (but not Apple, there is a difference!) fan-boy I am just surprised that they didn't take up Steve Jobs's offer for free OS X now that it has become clear they need a more mainstream OS to make it a success.
This is the end ...
It seems to me that all this entire project has been a testbed for a new market we already know: the UMPCs.
We can now see that it has been a successful one, as Asus and many more can say.
Now it's time to kill the project, putting Windows XP as it will be absolutely impossible to run *anything* beyond the OS on that hardware. An d without applications...
Oh, yes, and Windows XP will die in a few days...
Well done, Mr. Negroponte.
The revolution got sold boys. http://radian.org/notebook/sic-transit-gloria-laptopi
You feel sleepy. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
You're confusing hardware with software.
AMD and other hardware component suppliers did not supply their components for free because replicating hardware costs money. In contrast, replicating software costs nothing other than time for MS. Even worse, in this case it required more hardware to be added by OLPC for XP to work, yet this was paid for by OLPC and not by MS, so in effect it cost MS negative money to replicate XP since someone else bore their costs.
What you're seeing is a total collapse of thought processes by OLPC management, a complete misunderstanding of the costs involved and who should bear them, and a total failure to make MS pay for the privilege of getting its name placed in front of new generations of children.
MS's desire to be on the XO platform should have been used as a means of getting the cost per unit down a lot closer to that $100 figure, instead of as a means of bleeding the 3rd world and inflating the coffers of MS even further.
What disastrous management all 'round: incompetence at OLPC, and callousness at MS.
$3/$7 machine is quite a bit to truly poor countries. That's disgusting. What exactly did MS offer? Or was it just schmooze-fu?
But replace the following words:
...and you're back to the reason why they are developing countries in the first place.
Microsoft with British Empire
Windows sold below cost with textiles sold below cost (with an effective business model behind it that liquidates the indigenous economy and local resources)
2008+ with 1608+
You've also got a very cheap future workforce available to you (and this time you don't have to chain them).
Genesis 1:32 And God typed
Paraphrasing something I posted on OLPC News, I think the real loss here is Bitfrost which to me was one of the most interesting software developments to come out of the OLPC project. I remember reading somewhere that Ivan Krstic (the main architect behind it) was working on wrappers to help Bitfrost be usable on other flavours of Linux, but somehow I can't see it working on the XP XO...
I think about the hardware engineers who did as much as they could to shave off costs for the hardware. Get it reliable, make the specs, live up to the hype.
Then I think about the people who spent their time customizing the software and OS. Making custom stuff to bring education and music to third world countries.
Then I think about all the people who ponied up the cash to buy one for themselves and another for a needy child.
Then I think about a price increase of 3-7% that does nothing for the end user, will ultimately be slower and not be anywhere as dynamic as the existing operating system. And basically just be bragging rights for some shitty sales engineer about how they torpedoed an opensource project.
Make no mistake, _you_ _sold_ _us_ _out_ Negroponte.
I hope whatever consulting gig you take with Microsoft down the line will make up for how many kids you just sentenced to 'retard school'.
If the maintainer of a project takes it in a direction you don't want, you fork.
That's the strength of OSS, isn't it?
I was so excited to see the whole world share the experience of using a computer.
I was excited to see all the hard work from the open source community play a big part in the future.
I was also excited to see what new and fun things the people of this project could come up with eg the GUI they had planned originally
More importantly i believe this was a non profit organisation from the good of peoples hearts!
now its just turned into the evil profit munching, brain washing, Microsoft world of the future.
I hate to say it but,
now i'm excited to see this project die and for Microsoft to gain nothing from it. i'm sure many peoples hard work they did voluntarily has just been thrown away so this non profit organisation can make Microsoft some money.
It is not about the cost, it is about plugging any hole to the monopoly ASAP:
Asus EEE PC -> Looks popular? Oops -> Windows
OLPC -> Looks popular? Oops -> Windows
The motto is: "Let's not let the masses learn" (about freedom and free software).
The silken cord around the ankle will turn into solid chains soon enough.
You don't need to grow up using MS Word or Excel to competently use them when you get older. Those programs did not exist when I grew up, yet I have no trouble using them. The use of any word processor or spreadsheet program is more than enough to understand and use other such programs.
The hope many people had for the project was that it could teach them more than that. It could teach them how to look at code and modify it themselves. They could take apart the computer and learn about the parts.
The point of the project was not to turn lots of kids into M$ office drones.
MS ties users to windows by the applications. If the applications (FOSS) also run under another OS then switching to linux or another OS later is not a problem.
Didnt you hear? MS are not a monopoly. Look... there is Apple, and there is RedHat, and Ubuntu, etc. MS use this approach every time someone says they are a monopoly. As i recall Ms even invested in Apple when it was going through bad times to ensure they had a competitor to point to. However, good point, im sure there must be something in the law about this sort of tactic. Would be great if everyone did start demanding XP at $3 a license. It would probably push their sales figures through the roof!
Strongly agree. I think Sugar had - has - the potential to be the next big thing in user interface. It's a complete new look at how the graphical user interface works, and in my opinion it looks streets ahead of the conventional WIMP interfaces we're using now.
Of course, Sugar is a project which is, at least potentially, independent of OLPC. I really hope that enough of a community will carry on developing Sugar to make it a viable alternative desktop, not just for third world children, but for all of us.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
When we see news reels showing kids jumping up and down on top of their POS OLPCs because XP doesn't really run well on the damn things and it crashes all the time. Maybe they should focus on making an XBOX OLPC instead... same thing really. One is for the deprived, the other is for the spoiled little brats, right? Or maybe MS should focus on making the XBOX more of an educational device.
Now the kids will have to get used to patch Tuesday and Blue Screen of Death and DLL hell. Yep, great way to introduce the youngsters of the world to computing.
Many of the developing world billionaires are concerned about their countries and work hard to bring employment there (contrast it with America's). Simply approach a couple of these ppl and point out that a design has been done and is capable of being done by these countries for near the same price. Once they realize that they can use this as a springboard while getting off the MS cycle, one or several will pick it up. Sadly, it will probably kill off OLPC, but then again, they are now just a zombie.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
This announcement makes OLPC just another computer manufacturer, no longer a charity whose success is championed in my heart.
Take a giant step back, this is like holding a charity telathon to fight hunger, then taking the donations and using them to build a few hundred McDonalds in the inner city, and handing out 'half off' coupons to the poor neighborhood kids to help them with their empty stomachs..
I think Negroponte and the rest of the board could be personally liable for conversion and fraud. They raised enormous support from the community in the form of programming efforts, money, and time under the guise of FOSS only to turn the whole thing over to directly support Microsoft's strategy for commercial success in the third-world. One is left wondering how long ago Negroponte planned this and what his personal gain is from the deal.
Remember, when you're on the board of an organization -even a nonprofit, you can't just act on your own whim. Save The Dolphins can't just go open up a gill-netting operation and cackle merrily all the way to the bank, the board has a fiduciary duty to stakeholders that binds their actions. I, for one, would love to see them all thrown in jail.
How about it? Go go gadget EFF!
There is no such thing as "very pure". You can be either pure or not. Negroponte must decide where he stands.
How does this reflect with all people that promoted the OLPC as a tool to propagate the values of free software, I don't know. Many people are very upset.
It may still be a wonderful educational tool, but a lot of the original message will be lost. It will either be OK not to help your peers by not being able to give software away or it will be OK to pirate software. That's just wrong.
http://www.dieblinkenlights.com
wtf they charge $7 for dual booting windows & linux for the extra hardware what extra hardware ? u need less hardware to run linux
A question I would like to put to Mr. Negroponte, What technalogical advantage does putting XP confer on the OLPC? Before you say it, and no, I'm not talking about 'feetures'. What functionality doesn't the XO provode that the third world would need? Web Browser, Word Processor, Email, Instant Messenging, VoIP Programs, Media Player ..
davecb5620@gmail.com
And to think this was just so Negroponte's love of Flash could be fulfilled... I wonder how does he fell now about those 20000 kids that won't have their laptops anymore.
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
As soon as the OLPC installs free trial versions of Norton, AOL etc.
After all that's why it's cheaper to buy a Dell with windows than Linux.
It's, among other things, what allows auto discovery of devices, plug-and-play and auto mounting on modern linux distros.
... all the territory here is well burnt, the OLPC project destroyed, and then let's move on to the next mean thing."
We won't see any updates ever to this XP for OLPC, I presume.
It'll be three laptops per child...
From the start, Microsoft offered PC makers the option of pre-loading MS-Windows on PCs. Remember, most people had to install MS-DOS themselves. Then setup MS-Windows. But then, as MS-Windows evolved and shed MS-DOS, PCs came preloaded with Windows. How convenient. Ever since then and until the DOJ ruling, no one has been able to pre-install any other OS except MS-Windows on an OEM PC. Some PC manufacturers do offer Linux, but it is behind the scenes. Not really out there for the average person to see. Why? Because Microsoft puts the screws into the PC manufacturers and structures the MS-Windows promotional packages so that it is tied to the extreme discounts PC makers can have of licensing MS-Windows. If the DOJ did not at least bring Microsoft's anti-trust actions to light, you would have never had Linux on PCs today, I guaranteed it.
Now we have a flip situation, where a PC platform started off with Linux. And now to be "fair" (***see note below) we are going to include MS-Windows in a dual-boot form alongside Linux.
So some PC manufacturers who really want to offer Linux (like Dell) might be able to, in the light of DOJ observation or just in the public eye, offer Linux in a dual-boot form on their MS-Windows only PCs. After all, we want this to be as convenient as possible for consumers of computer technology so they have
"a choice."
---
*** oh, excuse me, I shouldn't say it that way, "to be fair." We all know that everyone REALLY WANTS MS-Windows, so why should we withhold technology that "everybody wants." Shame on me. I should know better that the current atmosphere does offer a "fair" choice already. Could it even be "better" than that? Yes. And that is the unfairness of it. We do have better technology out there than MS-Windows. But if that better technology is artificially held back on the same hardware platform, a majority of people will ever know about it. Especially schools and low-income people who are stuck paying into technology that really could be improved, but can't, because a big fat gorilla holds it all at bay. And in the United States at least, the government presided by the Bush administration who quieted the DOJ for Microsoft because of campaign contributions, is letting them. 'See http://www.linux.com/articles/35173 and Google')
will gladly educate Mr. Negroponte on how a non-profit gets away with Fraud and Conversion in the public eye.
Governments decide between the $203 proprietary version (XP) and the $207 source-available version (XP+GNU/Linux) purchased in lots of 1M. They'll see no advantage to choosing the more expensive version.
They could buy both to pass the choice to their citizens, but as most citizens don't mind which UI they use, don't need the source, and are poor, it makes no sense for the government to spend $4M per lot just for a mere _option_ which most people won't use.
Therefore, individual kids, parents and teachers may not have the choice, even when they can afford the extra $4. XP version or no laptop at all.
This is because the OLPC is not sold as individual customised items (like Dell), but in large uniform batches through governments. And we know how much poor governments love spend extra money on giving individuals lots of choice in public services.
Choice in one place may not always lead to choice where it matters.
I hope it does though.
So, who do I call to get my donations refunded? I most certainly donated based on the projects stated goals of freedom, not their new goal of serfdom.
"So many laptops, so little time"
- Kunga the Botmaster
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
I purchased two OLPC PCs because I believed so strongly in the OLPC projects intent.
Now that I find out that a portion of my DONATION to the OLPC project is ending up in the pockets of Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer makes me fuckin' retch!
Mr. Negroponte has done more to damage the goodwill of people and the soul of open source more than Bill Gates, Novell and Darryl McBride even did!
AN UTTER FUCKIN' SELLOT!
"Negroponte" always did remind me of a super-villian
Any more than Bill Gates or Microsoft (or Jobs/Apple or even Linus/x) is God.
The computer is just a tool.
Unless it's running MSwhatever, in which case, the user is just a tool, and the computer+MSwhatever is what they used to call idolatry.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
Linux is defunct.
Uh huh. Sure.
You ever heard of something called raising the bar to doing good?
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
If the proof were a snake, you'd be swelling up and turning odd colors and rolling on the ground by now, because you've obviously been bit.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
No Linux.
You want a Linux distro, you pay for your copy of XP anyway.
Asustek says selling the Linux version in Japan is "under consideration"
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
It would sure be nice to live in a society where everybody understood the stopping problem and what it means.
I mean, there's at least about 50% hope that, understanding the problem, they'd quit trying to use computers to solve the stopping problem.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
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You are miscalculating the cost as if it were a hardware good. It looks as if M$ is losing $199-$3 for every XO, but it's not true. In this case, the only cost is the initial development. After that, every copy's cost is ZERO.
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I am not going to waste my time anymore wondering about this great marvel that just got sucked up by big money. It is a waste of time and money to do something corporately with this project and make it fly. It wasn't designed to do that from the start. This can be redone again, just with a commitment to Open Source and Freedom and actual benefit to the end user, not about lining someone pockets with whatever financial resource is left of the poorest of the dirt-poor.
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Want Freedom? http://pcfreedomusa.com/
Interesting how when Steve Jobs offered OS X for free, which runs easily on low-power devices, OLPC turned them down. But MS, offering a chopped XP for $$, is welcomed?
Doesn't compute to me.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
Called it.
Microsoft are smart enough to realise that mindshare is the key factor which will determine their chances of survival in future OS markets. The only thing which can possibly come from this is another generation who learn to use computers in the context of the obfuscated Microsoft approach: Removed from the real technology, and inadvertantly locked into Windows' GUI conventions and file formats. What a gutless capitulation by the OLPC project.
Negroponte declaring himself pure after accepting MS Windows on the OLPC is like Madonna claiming to be like a virgin.
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Man, some people on Slashdot need a clue-by-four upside the head. The parent was a well written alternate point of view, so let's mod it a troll! For a site where so many people get in an uproar about censorship, it sure seems like sometimes this community does an awful lot of self-censoring.
Would it be too paranoid to expect that the government customers that approached OLPC about wanting Windows, had themselves been approached by Microsoft to be convinced that they wanted Windows?
Didn't the same thing happen when Intel, as a member of the OLPC team sent out its sales force to sell against the OLPC? It'd be pretty naive to think that "more comfortable with Windows" was the only reason. There's comfort and comfort.
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
as this should be anon so it shall be.
I was just talking to the someone at a conference yesterday. Strangely enough I was saying that MS had to do this (well, not for $$$). Looking at pruned down version of XP for Eee PCs it seemed viable to me.
Why did I think they had to do it?
To insure a future where MS can get people who are tech savvy enough for jobs involving their OSs in 10-20 years. This is if they cannot cut out the human factor completely.
I look at it this way. Life is lazy. People are alive and so they are lazy also.
Consoles are becoming more popular every day and they cater to lazy. You have to figure out nothing to really get a console up and running. 10-20 years our potential tech employees will not be the ones who learned computer networking so they could play head to head Doom.In the US they will be the ones who buy consoles turn them on and they just work. So in the US we will have potential tech employees who are non optimal.
So where do we get the new meat? We already like outsourcing so the 3rd world seems like a great place.... What if all your 3rd world kids have been running *nix for the last 10-20 years?
Getting a MS OS on these things insures a cheap expendable work force for MS and their customers for the future. It is just good business.
Something something dark side, something something complete.
...don't forget Solitaire!
As per the technical aspect of it, likely they'll be using "Windows Fundamentals for Legacy PC", that takes up maybe 1 gig for the full install. (And 64meg minimum RAM) And it'll have a Volume License Key. (Assuming it's not modified) so WGA won't be an issue.
Great now Third world counties have the option to pay more for the most virus and spyware riddled OS on the market. Just like us. Hurray!
The OLPC project will die now, because it has thoroughly offended all the idealistic open source people who might have contributed for free. From now on, OLPC will need to pay for its R & D, and this will quickly drain the project's resources. Microsoft will probably make some token gestures but it will not be a savior: the company's goal has been to kill the project. So the OLPC will flame out.
But Microsoft is going to lose the war. OLPC proved that there is a huge and lasting market for an inexpensive and fully functional computer. The hardware cost of these little gadgets is so low that the Microsoft tax becomes a significant burden. Microsoft has enough clout to force a few manufacturers to pay the tax anyway, but these companies will quickly be overwhelmed by those who do not pay the tax. And there will be lots of tax dodgers: the market for the little computers is so huge that Microsoft will be unable to stem the tide.
The consesquences for Microsoft are grim. Cheap computers running Linux will quickly take over the low end of the PC market, then grow upwards. A company as bloated as Microsoft cannot survive for long by charging $3 per machine for Windows and Office. (Office wlll have to be included since the little Linux computers will have OpenOffice.)
Microsoft will slowly starve. The company may never completely disappear, but it is set to shrink drastically in size and influence.
Exactly. And microsoft should have kept it free. Nickel and diming 3rd world CHILDREN.
Way to go.
OLPC sucks.
Imagine all the children who'd be happier with a DS.
And DS has WiFi.
Technical innovations like the XO display would not remain an OLPC exclusive for very long.
OLPC's market is the education minister. In the third world, a market an inch wide and a mile deep. His first concern will be the XO's place and performance in the elementary grades.
He may be skeptical of constructionism.
In the expectation that something magical is going to happen if you simply expose the source code of an OS or an application in a grade school classroom.
His second concern will be how well the laptop prepares students for higher education or vocational training. He might easily be forgiven for thinking that Windows and Office are marketable skills.
my comment:
This is nonsense. The OLPC program is supposed to be about helping children in underdeveloped nations learn and grow, right? Instead, you're forcing them to stagnate in the mire that Microsoft creates. Where we (the first-world nations) could be striving to help the tech-illiterate develop an understanding of how computers work, we're dooming them to a future at the mercy of a company that has made it clear that they only care about one thing: Microsoft. Now, you're not giving them the chance to learn how computers work, you're forcing them to develop under the oppressive yolk of Microsoft.
Not only that, but Microsoft should have had to pay for the privilege of subverting this new potential-customer base into more sheeple.
I was planning to defer my charitable contributions from other organizations to the OLPC program... but you've just told me (and everyone like me) that you don't want my money, that you value lining the pockets of a money-grubbing software giant over the well-being of developing nations.
The Salvation Army, Minnesota Public Radio and the Red Cross will all be very glad to know that your cause doesn't need or want my money and support.
response:
Thank you for your concern about One Laptop per Child.
OLPC maintains a firm and unequivocal commitment to open source software. Having an open system is fundamental to OLPC's mission, please see: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Core_principles/lang-en
Any software developed by or for OLPC is released under GPL v2. The open source community remains a critical success factor in the one laptop per child mission and we are *extremely* grateful for all their past and future contributions.
Microsoft is developing a version of its XP operating system that runs on the XO laptop. OLPC will continue to develop its Linux-based OS and distribute it on all its XO laptops. Future distributions may include both open and proprietary software; however, the choice of what to use will remain the child's and the default will remain open source.
Best Regards,
OLPC
Open Source Software promotes Competition.
Closed Source Software promotes Collusion.
While it is a perfectly laudable concept to provide the children of developing countries with inexpensive laptops, the idea that this will be the lever of improvement of their life and living conditions is not borne out by any of the already existing evidence.
Children of the developed nations already have laptops and a vast choice of free educational material and applications available to them. They do not make any use of this, preferring instead to fill the legion of social websites with mindless drivel on par with what another generation used to scribble on the covers of their school notebooks, their folders and when the opportunity was available the desks or the toilet walls.
They have mobile phones too - almost every single child in the United Kingdom owns a mobile phone. They again have such a low level of understanding of the phones that there a few capable of converting any audio file to a ringtone and are perfectly satisfied with the idea of buying one for 3 quid (plus subscriptions - service providers rates may vary.) The phones like the notebooks are mere communication devices, devoted to txt messages and filming gang beatings or bullying.
The romantic notion that a new wonder technology would provide unimpeded access to the world of education is not new, it was the crux of sales promotion for televisons in the late fifties and early sixties. All you need to do is read any tv schedule to see how this panned out or ask a school student when was the last time they watched Prime Ministers Questions or Cspan.
For those keen on the OLPC concept, well there are more than enough people committed to that cause here on slash dot for them to form themselves together and create a true open source concept that cannot be influence by anyone, governments, Negroponte or Bill Gates even.
However for anyone wishing to actually improve the life and the living conditions of the young people in question, my suggestion would what all the evidence demonstrates - raise their health standards - this brings with it economic growth and a stable society. Take the 100 bucks concept and instead of using it for OLPC, provide each of the children with $100 dollars worth of health care. You don't need to take my word for it either, a very short search on Google will provide all the necessary data. Then after this monumental milestone in human civilisation finally occurs, we could think about the computers, instead of what is happening just now, a futile discourse on the rights and wrongs of organisations we have no control over.
Posts, MyBio or Sig, may contain satire, sarcasm, bolded nouns be sardonic or even witty & be Church of SD
I don 't recall anything called, System 2 having anything to do with CP/M.. What are you referring to?
It was obvious that something essentially
like this was coming from the time they
went with the Marvel chip.
If you can't objectively defend your position, even in only one aspect, you lose credibility on all of your argument.
The position was already defended objectively in the parent: "the XO was not intended as a normal western product for exploitation of consumers."
The OLPC project was set up with an entirely different philosophy and purpose in mind. The normal rules for profit and loss and the normal purpose for which gadgets are produced in normal commerce do not apply here. In case this is too complex for you, I'll spell it out: the purpose of this project is not commercial gain.
Your question should be turned around on its head: what makes you think that Microsoft has the natural right ("natural" for market gadgets in western commerce, that is) to burden this very special project with the additional requirements and costs of supporting XP, just because it wants to have its name spread before the 3rd world's children?
This is nothing more than MS hijacking an educational project for commercial gain, and it's beyond belief even for them.