Slashdot Mirror

>That is the worst thing about the whole war in Iraq. All the bad precedents that were set.

You need to do a bit of googling if you think that these "precedents" were set during the Iraq wars.

Here, let me get you started

Textbook Repression: US training manuals declassified
U.S. Instructed Latins on Executions, Torture

This occurred across Democratic and Republican administrations. Whenever the dirty details were revealed to the public there were Congressional investigations, lots of pearl-clutching editorials written, lots of pundits interviewed on TV having exactly the kind of silly debates they have now about America being a tarnished "beacon of freedom and light", and yet, when the press moved on to another outrage du'jour the CIA and Pentagon went back to their old habits. You'll excuse me if I take Brennan as being full of shit when he essentially describes a kinder and gentler CIA.

This is naive. Companies have done and do terrible things and the market does nothing to curtail it. After the Ludlow massacre Rockefeller was temporarily unpopular, so what did he do? He hired a publicist. People loved him, he suffered no criminal or financial penalties.

How about a more recent example? Coke killed several union organizers in Columbia in the nineties. As a result, they suffered through a temporary and ineffective boycott. No other repercussions, most people didn't even hear about it.

trained, and funded by the U.S.A. Really.

So, your tax dollars at work for evil. Again.

http://www.soaw.org/component/content/article/1/1994

Here's the problem with all these liberty-vs-security debates. Before we get into the argument about just how much personal liberty we're willing to give up for security, let's first establish that the proposed measures would actually make us safer. Does any of this security theatre actually work? If torture isn't an effective interrogation technique- and all of the available evidence strongly suggests that it is not- we don't need to have a debate about whether it's moral to torture someone to save lives. If torture doesn't work, then the left, right, and centre should all be able to agree that we shouldn't torture.

It's about counter insurgency, not counter intelligence.

Breaking hearts and shattering minds.

We take your dad/husband/friend/son away in the middle of the night, ship him half across the world, torture him for 4 years for no reason then drop him right back, and pretend it didn' t happen. Why? So you know we're really fucking scary people and you shouldn't try do topple our puppet regime in the name of "democracy" or some other counter-consumerist nonsense.

It's a really old doctrine, formed mostly by the British in India/Afghanistan in the good old days, refined by the SAS and CIA for Latin-America: http://www.soaw.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98

If you want reliable intelligence, torture doesn't work. Isolation and sleep deprivation and repetitive questioning does.

Yeah, yer right, the nerve of the West to attempt knock over a ruthless dictator who has supported the worst sort of despots throughout Africa and who decided his people should have no right to self-determination. What were they thinking? What were you thinking?

Yeah, the West is very respectful of people's self-determination... and you know, the West has never supported dictators (only in Latin America there have been 10+, fully trained and supported by US and its [dirty] War on Communism ), genocide and sicarii.

History is written by the victors, and they often lie.

Mod me down but while I think Australians should be able to access the internet and communicate freely I think they should be left alone to work out their own problems. Australia has been under attack for a very long time and you have to bear in mind the US relationship with the Pacific region hasn't exactly been hmmm how shall we say very fair. The US has been happy to triain death squads at the school of americas http://www.soaw.org/ [soaw.org] and fund the over throw of democractically ellected goverments (Chile, Nicuragua, Guatmala most recenly the atempt in Venuzuela and not to mention Syrian and Iran) so you could see the leader ship in Australia might be a little paranoid.

Mod me down but while I think Cubans should be able to access the internet and communicate freely I think they should be left alone to work out their own problems. Cuba has been under attack (sanctions etc) for a very long time and you have to bear in mind the US relationship with central and south America hasn't exactly been hmmm how shall we say very fair. The US has been happy to triain death squads at the school of americas http://www.soaw.org/ and fund the over throw of democractically ellected goverments (Chile, Nicuragua, Guatmala most recenly the atempt in Venuzuela and not to mention Syrian and Iran) so you could see the leader ship in Cuba might be a little paranoid.

Tell the same to Cambodia, Nicaragua, Chile, Mexico, East Timor and all the other countries the CIA has been fucking around with. http://www.soaw.org/

Heck, I thought it meant School of the Americas. Living in Columbus, GA (USA), we get these fruitloops down here every year protesting: http://www.soaw.org/

On US Interrogation (sadly I cannot find the SF field manual): http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/18779prs20041207.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_interrogation_techniques http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/10/torture_as_an_interrogation_te.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1212197,00.html http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/16/washington/16cnd-formica.html http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/080305I.shtml http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1227&id=893492006 On the US School of Americas: http://www.soaw.org/ On Secret US Prisons: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1237589,00.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4461470.stm http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/12/19/afghan12319.htm http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/12/19/afghan12319.htm http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/64/22567 Now why is this important? Since the US keeps these prisons in secret locations which are never disclosed, the international red cross is never permitted to inspect them. Therefore, any sort of interrogation and torture technique used is carte blanche.

I hate to reply to myself, but the main page of the soaw site isn't very informative. Some background on the SOA, and the real reasons the site exists can be found on this page: http://www.soaw.org/new/type.php?type=8

I'll tell you who gives: Wal-Mart gives, Coca-Cola gives, Nike gives, and every other American company who makes money by building "sweat shop" facitilies in Latin American countries. Someone needs to steal the land from these poor people, right? Who better than the "guerillas" already living there! This is real stuff people, we train Latin American soldiers right here in the USA. Don't believe me? http://www.soaw.org/

The death squads in central America were a US funded, US supported terror war against the broad population. We invented them, we trained them, we funded them (and continue to fund them btw). We are worse then they are. There is no question which country is far and away the leading state sponser of terrorism.

The only thing unusual for the government would be to run a counter insurgency domestically. Other than that it would have been business as usual.

A correction my prior post called it the Academy of the America's

It's actuall School of the America's

Mike

The other function of the armed forces is increasingly to provide training and logistics for native militaries, and to work as a formal security parter (within a coalition) in a given theatre. In this area the US does not have near the capacity that is needed. It needs to easily be doubled or tripled, and since it's a long process to train these type of people it needs to start now.

The US is doing this since it's existance more or less, there are plenty of people who know how to teach. School of the Americas is the most well known of these endavours, and if you look at their graduates, you'll see just how well it is going (yes, I am sarcastic here).

Still even more forces need to be trained for covert missions. For example, when the US recieved reports France that Saddams intelligence units were planning covert ops in the US, they should have done their own covert operation and assasinated Saddam. Instead they asked the UN to help, and when the UN did nothing, they invaded Iraq which led to far too much needless death.

THIS is one of those things we will clash for a very long time. I do not believe that the "preemptive" going to war or killing others is agreeable or just be allowed.

Any nation who acts that way is nothing else but terrorists themselves.

I think the simplistic "we screwed them, now they try to kill us, lets be nice to them" view has some merit, but there is so much more complexity than that.

For me it isn't so much a matter of "lets be nice to them."
I realize that that isn't possible. But how about we stop screwing them?

Coming from a Libertarian viewpoint, this means two things. We need to drop foreign aid for regimes like Saddam Hussein. Saudia Arabia would be a good place to start. Why are we supporting a government that is indoctrinating most of their children in Wahabiism?

Second, if we seriously want to put an end to terrorism, maybe we should close down the Terrorist Training Camps that are in our own country, and paid for with our tax dollars.

Methinks you are the one who is clueless. The NSA is one of the most aggressive security agencies in the world. I'm sure their own private networks are very secure and not connected to the public internet in any way. It is common practice in these kind of places for people with clearance to have two PCs on their desk, one for each network.

Remember, we are talking about the country that trained just about every prominent South American terrorist as well as the likes of Al-Qaida. I hardly think having a few "security personel" (i.e. hackers) who's remit is not to defend, but consider attacks, is beyond their capability. The NSA already has all the cool toys for listening into telephones, cellphones, radios, faxes. You think they may have forgotten about TCP/IP?

Iraq refused to cooperate with the UN inspections and various items were unaccounted for.

Let the inspectors do their jobs? Who are you kidding? Go take a look at some of the Iraq - UN timelines on the web and ask yourself why did the UN wait so long to do anything about Iraq's refusal to comply with UN demands? Eleven years after Gulf War 1, Iraq still wasn't complying with the UN, yet the UN did nothing.

"U.N. inspectors withdrew from Iraq a year ago, shortly before the U.S.-led invasion of the country. After the war, the United States deployed its own team under Kay and refused to allow U.N. inspectors to return. Kay's team concluded that Iraq did not have stockpiles banned weapons as alleged by President Bush in making his case for war.

"During the period under review, no official information was available to UNMOVIC on either the work of, or the results of, the investigations of the United States-led Iraq Survey Group in Iraq. Nor has the (U.S.) survey group requested any information from UNMOVIC," the U.N. report said.

It sets out Kay's findings that it was unlikely large stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons were deployed in Iraq after 1994, but makes no comment on them."

How many political prisioners were killed in Iraq while they continued to defy and hold back UN inspections?

The Iraq administration was evil. The only question in regard to this issue is should the US/UN step in when countries are systematically murdering those who oppose the government. If yes, then the WMD issue is immaterial.

An unmentioned strategic reason is demographics. In 15-20 years world demographics are going to shift severely. Middle Eastern countries will become a much bigger players on the world stage (Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc). These countries aren't exactly known for promoting world peace.

What happens to world/US security when these countries are much stronger militarily?

To me it has always meant School of the Americas. I thought the article was about corporate funded mercinaries.

Fort Benning is also home to the "Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation," previously known as School of the Americas.

It also earned the nickname of "School of the Assasins" after training Latin American soldiers in such fields as "interrogation techniques" (torture), counterinsurgency techniques and psychological warfare.

Every year, protesters converge on the SOA and "cross the line" and get arrested, a mass protest to bring attention to this institutions horrible record. It is unlikely a surveillance blimp will deter many, but the first thought I had was that there had to be a link. The base may want to be able to identify more of those protesters that have only supporting roles and stay well behind the confrontation?

That's pretty funny, but here's the correct information about what influenced, indeed originated al-Qaida.

The US should play no part in this overthrow. At best, it draws massive international scrutiny. At worst, it results in horrific warfare and thousdans of deaths, which will no doubt happen if the US went to war with China.

On the economic side, I'm really not in favor of embargoing the dictatorships. As you noted above, improved prosparity among the victims of dictators is a very good thing. Maslow's pyramid of needs strikes again. This, along with simple reasons of human decency, is why the US should have a policy of requiring its corporations to provide at least a living wage to its employees in dictatorships (and none of that "we don't do it, its the subcontractors fault" BS either). If we doubled the wages of the average Chinese employee of, say, Nike then they would be better able to satisfy their low end needs which leads naturally to a desire to satisfy higher level needs. As Maslow points out, a person who is worried about starving doesn't care too much about politics.

Requiring items manufactured in dictatorships to bear a "Made by Victims of a Dictator" label would assist the US citizens in allowing the magic of the market to do its job. The market, as you may recall from the non-religious economics classes you may have taken, can't function in an informational vacuum. It requires *INFORMED* consumers to function properly.

make stuff up? no, i think the poster was quite accurate

i believed it was about oil until i read more Chomsky. he has convinced me that oil is but another bonus. it's really just about power.

however, there is the fact that the war on Iraq began 2 weeks ahead of schedule because they saw an opportunity to secure the oil fields.

in addition, the first time the bush administration talked about attacking Iraq was September 13, 2001, 2 days after 9/11 (read Bob Woodward's Bush at War, 2002, Simon & Schuster); so obviously it's not like they found evidence of ties between the al Qaeda and Saddam and then decided to attack. they were already going to.

and, to comment on your second link, the article talks about the the Iraqi terrorist training camp Salman Pak. this is quite possibly the most hypocritical justification for war the US has ever used. the US has a terrorist training camp in Fort Benning, Georgia called the "School of the Americas", aka the "School of the Assassins." it's graduates have gone on to commit massacres, terrorism, assassination, torture, rape, and kidnapping, mainly in Latin America, targeting educators, union organizers, religious workers, student leaders, etc. the SOA was originally in Panama until 1984, when it was kicked out for being "the biggest base for destabilization in Latin America."

now, if you still believe that the US intends to eradicate terrorism, then could you explain why it maintains relationships with the most brutal terrorist states on earth? (examples are Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Indonesia, Haiti, Guatemala, Colombia, etc).

and could you explain why it not only supports terrorism but commits it? the US is the only country ever to be condemned by the World Court for international terrorism. this occurred in the 1980's, when the US attacked Nicaragua. the World Court ordered the US to cease their attack and to pay substantial reparations for the damage it had done, which included a civilian death count in the tens of thousands. the US refused and the attacks escalated. immediately following this, the UN Security Council proposed a resolution calling for all States to adhere to international law. the US, alone, veoted the resolution. then, the UN General Assembly (which includes about 200 countries) passed the same resolution, with only the US and Israel voting "no".

shall i continue?

Gee, why do you think he has so many recruits... you don't think American foreign policy would have anything to do with it, do you?

If you're worried about OBL and his "army" of terrorists, you might want to check out the US Government's School of the Americas.

We practically made him the horror that he is now, anyway.

Ask yourself why 9/11 happened. It happened because the USA is poking its nose into other countries affairs.

Now think about this, let's say China occupied Washington D.C. Would that piss you off? Well, take that analogy and multiply by a thousand to get an idea of how pissed some muslims might be that we are in their holiest land of Mecca...

Peace Facts And yet we tell the world we are unbiased.

You don't need to shred the constitution to protect America, Just go back to the strict "Friend to all, Ally to none" vision upon which America was founded.

America's New Motto?

The FBI is on occasion not above a little blackmail (especially the 3rd paragraph) They also like to keep tabs on the political opposition.

Seriously. You're paranoid...

No, just cynical. You're naive.

Because eventually they'd get to someone like me, who has nothing to hide.

But do you have nothing to lose?

It applies to the government, too. Everyone will be able to see exactly what the FBI and the CIA and the NSA are up to

How does this follow? Will the NSA publish their intercepts? No, open government is a great idea, but I doubt the U.S. government would open up voluntarily. If anything it has recently clamped down on information "because it might help terrorists".

I think our constitution needs another ammendment that says something along the lines of "No law shall be passed which denies an adult individual the right to perform an act which causes no harm to any individual other than the actor."

Good luck getting that through. After all there are states that still have sodomy laws on the books. And you want a constitutional amendment no less.

Fortunately, though, our first ammendment already covers the most important rights of all. As long as it stays intact and as well-defended as it is

The point is that you can, in practice, damage the first amendment without breaking it. All you need to do is make it clear to people that they may be free to speak up, but there will be consequences. This is the famous "chilling effect". The problem is that the consequences can be serious, but subtle enough that most people not affected will simply not care. A perfect example is the new airline watch list: e.g. if you are caught protesting missile defense, or the "School of the Americas", you can look forward to a strip search every time you want to fly in the U.S. Sure, it may not deter the hardcore activists, but it will help keep such opinions marginalized (there was an article in Salon.com recently but I can't find the link anymore).

I think a 100% open information society could have a lot of advantages.

This new government database is a long way from an open society. Your use of phrases like "information wants to be free" makes me think you understand that "knowledge is power". Now we have a case of the government collecting information; I don't think they should have the associated power, at least not without a helluva lot more oversight.

Companies who fire people for being gay are limiting their own selection of employees and making an unprofitable decision. Besides that, such actions tend to generate lots of negative publicity.

And has that kept the U.S. military from firing people for being gay?

The basic idea is to tape over the warts and suffocate them.

You would expect this from the US Military. After all, they have alot of experience in using Duct Tape to suffocate undesirables...

Location: School of the Americas, Fort Benning, Georgia:

American General: "And as you can see, using Duct Tape, several Car Batteries, and a metal bed frame, you can quickly torture those nasty Zapatista Rebels into submission."

Mexican General: "Gosh, that's so easy! We need another source of cheap labor. I am ever so thankful General. Now, if only you could only cure these warts, I might be able to get one of my Zapatista slave girls to like me!"

America General looks at Diagram on the whiteboard. "Hmmm, well you know..."

American Agenda for FARC: (via the School of the Americas

• Train Latin Americans to follow in alumnus Manuel Noriega's footsteps and establish abusive military dictatorships (we can always "take them out" later wen we need the political capital)
• Train Latin Americans to kill impoverished families seeking their basic human rights
• Sell Latin American thugs stinger missiles (we know they'll use them to crush communist revolutions [though we call them Unions here in the US]. They would never resell them to "terrorists")
• Sell Latin American thugs A-37 dragonfly jets (they won't resell these to terrorists either they'll use them to fire rockets in to "dissident" families' thatched huts)

Since we're already pretty far off the topic of potential legal challenges to the USA PATRIOT Act, I'll carry on the topic of "terrorists." The fact is that the US has an excellent history of backing up truely vile regiems (the afforementioned Noriega) until there's political capital to be gained from going to war with them. We're doing the same thing in Iraq: when the Iraqi's were fighting the Iranians (back when they were terrorists not allies against terrorists) we had no problem with Hussein trying to take over his neighbors (we didn't like Iran then), gassing dissident groups within his country, or buying weapons of mass distruction (from Lockheed-Martin). There's two sides to every story here...

...we now return you to the previous conversation on freedom of speach in the digital age already in progress...

you can thank the school of the americas for that one. all the bad shit my government does kinda makes it real two-faced when championing this war on terrorism. remove the beam in your eye before removing the splinter from your neighbor's...

Oh, civil disobedience is still practiced in the US. But most people who do it are concerned with greater evils like the SOA, nuclear weapons, or the stolen 2000 election. Not many people can see the dangers inherent in DRM yet.

Sometimes we need to draw clear lines and define those countries that accept terrorist camps on their land as "evil", so as to affect change, despite the fact that they may be nominally neutral.

WILL KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE ON PURPOSE.
Goto Chiapas, Guatemala, Panama, Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Philippines, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, Cuba,..,..., tell *them* that.

Ever hear of the School of Americas? Its your own little Terrorist Training Camp.

Have you ever read this gem? http://www.antioffline.com/uscuba.html

Wow, imagine that - a pre-fabricated excuse for aggression, America(TM) would *never* do anything like that...?

The ignorance and myopia caused by America Jingoism is amazing -- and scary.

America is a Rogue Nation Out of Control.

Well, my truthful analysis of your nation was on-topic in the post you linked. It is a new level of lock-step McCarthyism to label anything that may question the decisions of your 'leaders' as "un-America", i have to commend you citizen, You Are Doing Good Work.

Seeing as how the truth makes me a " Un-American* Troll", I will repost them here for your pleasure:Read Here to learn how Bush has appointed ex-Iran-Contra Terrorists and convicted Congressional perjurer to key posts. Seeing all these cold-war CIA criminals in cabinet makes you wonder about GWB's father's involvement.

Click Here to learn how America has its own state sponsored Terrorist Training Camp, Colourfully called the School of Americas. Learn how its graduates form death squads in Central and South America.

Click here to learn about the United States Department of Defence's plan to kill domestic and foreign civilians in order to create a plausible excuse to start a war with Cuba during the 'ColdWar'. Funny, based on the actions/reaction of America and its citizens based on the WTC incident, you'd think that something like that might actaully work... or come to reality.... makes you wonder doesn't it.

*Thank you - Im glad you noticed. Your opinion is im "un-american", because you american, most others (them being Citizens of the World) would simply see me as truthful or possibly insightful... but hey, could be worse, I could be a xenophobic, ignorant jingoist.

The US harboured terrorists for 4 years before said terrorists blew up the WTC.

The US Government sponsers terrorism directly. The fact is that the CIA is widely accepted as a filthy group of killers... the world over. They topple governments, assassinate people and did some fucked up shit during the coldwar. The US Ambassador to the UN, John Negroponte, is a terrorist.

You even have your own dirty little terrorist training ground, colourfully called theSchool of America.

Anyone else interested in the machinations of the US Government and its hypocrasy may also like to read this: A wonderfull plan, on how the Government could 'get away' with starting a war with Cuba - very interesting stuff...

Kettle this is pot, Pot, Kettle.

The United States government supported Osama bin Laden. We funded, armed and trained his forces, both in war and terrorism. We helped build his terrorist army to fight a superpower, the Soviet Union. I don't like communism, but our politicians created a monster in Afghanistan. Now it seems that monster has attacked us.

Those that are now protesting against the bombing in Afghanistan condemned the Taliban long before tragedy of September 11. And yet the United States continued to fund them through May of this year.

• The United States Supported Pinochet.
• The United States Supported Saddam Hussein, even after he used nerve gas on his own people in 1988.
• And the United States supported the Taliban and Osama bin Laden.
• Even today the United States trains people in torture and terrorism at The School of the Americas.

I do think that something should be done about the Taliban's tyranny, but you have to realize that the Afghans are the first victims, not our enemies.

If we are really to put an end to terrorism we must stop our politicians from creating terrorists in the first place.

1) Was not democratically elected, was a left-wing junta. Just because commies say "the peoples this and that" a lot does NOT make them democratic.

2)We did not sponsor them, we only trained certain units in counter-inssurgency tactics. Their own lack of morals did the rest.

3)The UN is about as useful as the League of Nations was. Lots of talk, only the big-boys have a real say. Why invest money in a bad idea?

DCMA, Carnivore, and litigious culture have not been imposed on your country with one hundredth the brutality of colonialism

Hate to point this out, but the US has regularly killed innocent civilians for decades, except that most Americans wouldn't know coz they are semi-literate about foreign policy.

Do you think anybody gives a shit about carnivore and the US govt. reading someone's email? The US was one of the few countries (including libya and iraq) that opposed the landmine ban. It had death squads killing civilians in Guatemala, which has been well documented.

Recently, there was a proposal to close down the School of the Americas , a US military academy that has trained south american dictactorships, including skills such as torture.

You yanks lap up the propaganda fodder your govt. feeds you, which isn't that difficult, since half of you can't spot countries on the world map. Go USA! :)

And the winner is....The School of the Americas!

I was thinking they would probably send it to School of the Americas.

Because it is human nature to have a pecking order.

What proof do you have of this? Because, according to just about the last 20 years of anthropology, humanity existed for the majority of time without "leaders" in the coercive sense, within egalitarian communities. Read some of the anthropologically-based essays of John Zerzan for some more information re: Human Nature.

Some people are good managers, others are good programmers. It's your job to find out what you are good at and like to do.

A good programmer is infinitely more important than a good manager. End of story. The only reason management even exists is because workers are deprived of their ability to work as individuals. By forcing people to work in order to survive, you then need to make sure that people are around to make them do exactly what you want them to. There are hundreds of thousands of worker-owned, worker-run cooperatives in america that do just fine without managers or owners, and instead make decision via consensus or democratic vote (democracy, remember that?)

I would say that those who take the most risks earn the most money. They _SHOULD_ make most of the money.

What if it's not their money to begin with? What if they inhereted it? Furthermore, if you have $1,000,000 to your name, what's the big deal of having to put up $500,000? That's not a sacrifice. When you have nothing to eat, and you have to give up your freedom to work for another person's profit just to survive, *that* is sacrifice.

Do you realize that the CEO payscale to worker payscale ratio in the US is 419:1? Do you honestly think that CEO's are 419 times more important than the people who actually create products?

CEO's and stockholders offset your risk and liability of working for your self.

Liability? Haven't you learned anything from open source software? We don't even have to deal with issues of liability, because we write good software! Why? Because we're not motivated by profit, we're motivated by doing things right. Liability wouldn't even be an issue if people who are motivated by profit weren't cutting corners and lowering wages (thus, encouraging the production of crappier products) in order to make even more profit.

Please don't act as if these people don't work. You know better.

I can spend 16 hours a day writing random numbers on a peice of paper. Yes, it is tiring, and in a way, it is work. But is it productive? No.

Show me one product that a CEO has ever designed or produced in his time as a CEO. Production is the only force that is necessary in an economy. Everything else is administrative bullshit, and all that beauracracy only exists in order to justify the existance of administration itself.

Why do you think Dilbert is so popular?

They _MUST_ do it as a corporation, otherwise everyone that works for the "collective" is liable if they get sued.

It seems to work just fine for REI, Land o' Lakes, Ocean Spray, as well as numerous local cooperatives across America.

Hell, I would quit! Im mean money is money, but I would never allow someone to place my health at risk. They need to organize a union or gather up their things and move to where the jobs are.

What if you're an illegal immigrant after NAFTA screwed your home town over by pushing people off their land, and there were no jobs left, so you came to America. What if speaking out about sexual abuse, low wages, dangerous conditions, etc., will get you shipped back to your home country, where you will probably starve?

I would suggest that the bean pickers, soccer ball makers and sweatshop workers create a union.

Indonesia, Guatamala, Haiti. Mention the word "union" in these countries, and you will probably get tortured, disappeared, or killed. How? Why, by soldiers who were trained on american soil! Gotta love the capitalist state, no?

McDonalds pays $10/hr here in Nashville, its FAR above minimum wage.

You failed to notice that I didn't mention the payscale of McDonalds (which isn't $10 everywhere, and even if it is, is still far below a living wage of $16/hr), but the availability of jobs. In inner cities, there are no jobs! Which means that people who do have jobs will put up with basically any shit they have to in order to keep the job, because if they speak out, they get fired, and somebody else takes their job, and they're now unemployed.

Criminal negligence for not going to a silly protest that no one will remeber?

Criminal negligence for taking a bullshit, Rush Limbaugh, "blame-the-victim" attitude.

You should be locked up, because you have real convictions about these issues and yet I don't see you going to the inner city to teach these people how to manage their money, or going to these 3rd world contries and show them how to make themseleves economicly viable.

I'm working on an initiative in my community for taking kids out of the drug-filled violence-ridden high school, and starting a system of collective community homeschooling based on the teachings of A.S. Neill and Francisco Ferrer.

I am very soon going to be starting a low income student housing cooperative for the community college students in the area who can't afford the gentrified areas outside of the city.

We are also looking at starting a food cooperative as well

I am also talking with people about setting up a low power radio station in order to broadcast community debates, reports of police brutality, local music, and other local information.

But the main thing is that this paragraph above that you've written has revealed your true position. You feel that somehow these people need to be "made" economically viable. I wonder, have you ever read anything about institutionalized classism and racism in our society? Do you know about people like Amadou Diallo and Brian Deneke? Do you realize how hard it has become for *anybody* to move from one position in the social caste system to another, especially if you're a minority?

Do you realize that the greatest majority of shoplifters are the elderly?

You simply want to get attention for yourself and get on the font page of USA today.

Why, then, do anarchists wear masks at protests, and get very upset if people take our pictures without asking?

Answer: Because media is not what we're after.


Michael Chisari
mchisari@usa.net

I keep seeing these draconian laws being passed by our government, and these orwellian systems being created and implemented by profit- and power-hungry corporations. It seems every day there's a different post to Slashdot describing some new method for controlling the flow of information and the freedoms that we should be taking for granted...

And what are we doing about it? Why do we keep allowing our rights and freedoms to be taken away?

Why are those in power doing this to us? That's easy to answer: Because they can. Because anybody in power will seek to extend their power and control.

Why are we allowing this to happen? I don't know. Some of us are fighting back as much as we can, but most of us simply post to Slashdot and complain.

Listen up! All this bullshit that we've been fed ("We live in a free country!", "The economy is doing great!"), it's all just that: bullshit! We're losing our rights and freedoms on a daily basis, our economy is fake (the drop on last Friday was equivalent to Black Tuesday in 1929), people all over the world are being forced into sweatshop slavery in the name of "economic progress", and our environment is being raped and destroyed at an alarming rate in the name of profit.

And most importantly? The technology that we all love and support is being turned back on us in order to control and monitor people. They're usurping something that they have no right to usurp. We have to put the power of technology back into the hands of the people!

It's time to fight back! It's time for a revolution!

http://www.indymedia.org - Support independant media!
http://www.soaw.org - Why are our tax dollars being spent on training murderers?
http://www.corpwatch.org - So you think only governments can oppress and censor?

http://www.spunk.org
http://www.infoshop.org - Communism is dead, Capitalism is close to it. There is another alternative, and it's time we started exploring it.

http://www.adbusters.org
http://www.rtmark.com
http://www.subvertise.org - Subvertising (also known as adbusting) at it's best.

http://www.ainfos.ca - Keep informed on what is happening in the world, from an anti-authoritarian, grassroots perspective.

http://www.a16.org - Seattle and D.C. are just the beginning.
Michael Chisari
mchisari@usa.net