Slashdot Mirror
EU Agrees to Give Passenger Data to U.S.
de la mettrie writes "The EU Commission has agreed in principle to make airlines provide U.S. Homeland Security with detailed passenger data for flights to the USA. Things Uncle Sam would like to know about passengers include their itinerary, their credit card number and whether or not they asked for a meal without pork. The data are supposed to help prevent terror attacks and are to be 'handled appropriately'." The U.S. is collecting the data for a massive passenger database, intended to increase passenger profiling.
whether or not they asked for a meal without pork
So, being an vegetarian makes me a TERRORIST! Damn.
If at first you don't succeed, then sky diving definitely isn't for you.
I can't stand pork. Therefore I must be a terrorist!
I swear, this country is tearing itself apart with self-induced paranoia.
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
Ok they agreed to give the information...
But where does this information come from?
Does the EU also invade passengers privacy?
The Homeland Security push that Bush has instigated is really starting get a very Orwellian feel to it. I'm feel extremely sorry for the friends that I have who practice Islam or are of an Arabic descent.
-===- "Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserver neither" -===-
I can understand a few things, but Credit Card Numbers? WTF does the government need with that?
"Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised."
-Marilyn Manson
I'm sorry, where in the article does it say that? Although I'm leery of the gubm'int profiling me, we shouldn't be saying things that aren't true just to make our point.
Now, in order to reduce your threat level you'll have to choke down some pork before killing the INFIDELS!!! Just one more toll on the road to paradise...
Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
I'm not sure that airlines serve meals with any sort of meat, nevermind pork!
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
There's a concept of personal privacy called a reasonable expectation of privacy. For instance, you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy if you are in public, but you do if you are in your own home. I would say that putting your meal preference in Expedia precludes any reasonable expectation of privacy.
The way things are turning in the US now, becoming a police state, I have no interested in going there anymore. There are far more interesting places to go to in the rest of the world anyway..
This sounds like the movie _Airplane_, in which the search was on for a passenger who could not only fly a plane and land it, but who also didn't have fish for dinner.
If only *this* were a movie, I might find it funny.
-- Rick
So that's how we're going to fix help the U.S. economy! Get as many European credit card numbers as possible!
And corner the pork market!
...
I did not find any mention of this kind of data in form provided documents.
gee, if they *say* all this information will be handled appropriately, then it must be so!
I can't imagine this power being abused at all.
The libertarian solution to the failures of capitalism is to apply more capitalism til the failures are fixed.
The last couple of times I flew to the US (with US companies), I always had choice between chicken and pasta. No need to say you don't want pork, they don't serve it...
Now Bush is calling everyone chicken because they don't want to storm Iraq with him. Yeah, now who's daddy got him out of fighting in Vietnam?
Poor fellow, since the took the helm it has been one disaster after another: dotBomb, 9/11, ineffective Bin Laden chasing exercises all over the desert, WorldCom, Shuttle.... you can see why he wants to keep on upping the stakes until something goes in his favour. It is almost as if he's playing that old gambling system of doubling your bet every time you lose.
Well Americans, I hope you can see that most people in the rest of the world are getting tired of this attitude.
This homeland defense nonsense is getting way out of control. The sooner that idiot bush and his minions are out of office, the better.
When all else fails, run.
and whether or not they asked for a meal without pork.
It's going to be really hard trying to not make nazi references about this one, considering they are being so anti-sematic. Or maybe we should just be scared of vegitarians as well as jews and muslims.
Thanks for being anti-American a$$hole assuming racism on America's part (if America is a racist nation, why do third world peoples flock here?). If we did everthing that people think we do, the world would not exist. Grow up and get over your inferiority complex.
Once a month I would pay for an entire plane load of passengers with my credit card. And tell them all not to order pork.
Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but copyright will always protect me.
"Things Uncle Sam would like to know about passengers include their itinerary, their credit card number and whether or not they asked for a meal without pork."
So i'd be OK to bring a bomb in as long as I tell them where I'm going to plant it and how I'll pay for the bus to get there, and whether I would be offloading any digested pork in the country?
...and those who are moderating them up, nothing was said in the article about meal choice, and at least it seemed to me that the implication was that the credit card numbers just happen to be part of the record; they're not specifically being asked for. (Of course, I do wonder why they need the full record, and can't just extract the necessary information and leave the CC #'s and such out of it.)
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
You Jewish?
-No I just don't dig on swine.
Then I have no further questions regarding your meal decision
It's not like people have a fundamental right to privacy when traveling on a plane. If you people haven't learned from 9/11 by now, airplanes have been a target for terrorists for years, and will likely continue to be. It's the easiest way to cause terror and destruction.
And "profiling" is a much better way of stopping terrorists instead of stripping down some 80 year old grandma from Kansas City all in the name of political correctness. Using this information might give the Feds another tool to identify and apprehend these evildoers without causing a massive inconvenience and slowdown to others.
So you slashbots should come down from your high horse.
SIG:Slashdot: indymedia for nerds.
Otherwise, cunning as they are, they'd know what Homeland Security are looking for and ask for vegetarian meals instead of a meal without pork.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
It's an invasion of privacy. OTOH, in theory, I'd rather see Bad Guys stopped at the border, before they get in, than have the Feds looking for them once they are in. The latter requires severe restrictions on privacy. Think "Patriot III"
Best Slashdot Co
Thus, instead of hijacking the plane from a US airport, just 'jack one from Honduras or wherever, and crash it into a building on the way into a US airport.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
Pork. The one you love.
Click here.
If you're a terrorist, make sure to order a pork meal...and don't eat it. Sheesh. Talk about a stupid parameter to search by.
*shakes head*
Just another reason I think this homeland security office is a joke...
Do you know why the road less traveled by is littered with the bones of the unwary?
Sure, this can be seen as an invasion of privacy. While this is terrible and unfortunate, the fact of the matter is there currently exists some very terrible, murderous people in this world that are willing to do things that have never really been done before, in order to accomplish their task of murder.
I dislike the facts of this modern reality just as much as the next person. Unfortunately, there isn't much that the US Government can do to protect its citizens (which is a big component of government) and preserve the way life has been.
There simply is no other way to rectify this issue. Even if the US pulled out of the Middle East and swore off the oil habit and simply ceased dealing with that part of the world. The minds behind these murderous fundamentalists would not change. They would still plan their assaults and still carry out what they are able to carry out.
Living in this day and age is simple one of those most frustrating of times to live in.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
And any ballistic missiles too.
In fact seal them in a big bubble so their Kyoto-protocol-breaking factories don't damage the ozone layer anymore. Leave them to it and perhaps us in the rest of the world can stop going mad and starting wars for peace, working on new and more exciting mini nuclear weapons (FFS!), and stop ruling that drug companies don't have to allow cheap licenced production of life-saving drugs to 3rd world countries.
A tyrannical, unelected despot who's admitted to developing Weapons Of Mass Destruction? It's the Smirking Chimp.
They know my schedule, my name, address, credit history, SSN (on my passport anyways), my food prefrences, and nationality....
That's just silly. It doesn't matter what they know about me, I could still get myself on a plane and kill all the motherfuckers on it. This makes the flight safer how? Grr..
I am a viral sig. Please help me spread.
OK, I can understand the following:
Name
Airport of departure
Airport of destination
and that is IT. The government doesn't need my credit card nuber, and my meal preference is none of their damned business!
Besides, one doesn't have to request "no pork" to eat "no pork." I can just as easily get the meal with pork and not eat it, just the salad or crackers or whatever else I bring on board.
And yes, I agree that we are shooting ourselves in teh foot with all these knee-jerk reactions. At first I always said that this wasn't about being against Muslims/Islam, but our beloved executive branch is making that argument harder and harder every day.
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
Show your support for the fourth reich with this lovely blue sticker. I've got one!
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
When will governments understand that Sept 11 was based on the premise of surprise. The nutters on the plane did not even have guns. They had little forks and knifes. They used the element of surprise to carry out their attack.
And when will governments realize that these terrorists DO NOT use technology. The problem is that when you use technology to figure out profiles, it assumes that others are using technology as well.
Of course the current administration cannot be blamed alone, the EU is going along lock stock and barrel.....
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Is USA going to comply with EU data protection laws? Supposing this agreement is not already breaking that laws.
Is the next step to put video cameras in every home so the government can see what you are doing? It will prevent terrorism you know...
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
it was high on your list?
I know some muslim people and they are just normal people like you and me, trying to lead a normal life and aspire towards the same things me and you do ( good life partner, kids, decent living...). To blame an entire religion/area because of some misguided zealouts and fanatics is pretty irrational.
Sorta like blaming all christians for what the Nazi's did :-|
This is a prime example of pork barrel politics right here. I'm sure checking pork preferences was just an expensive freebie to special interest groups. If only Lieberman were elected President....
Shouldn't the EU also notify the US if passengers are wearing shoes? Shoes are just as indicative of a terrorist as pork.
The last thing we need in America are more foreign jerks coming around telling us why aren't so cool. Be sure to tell your Government *not* to take our foreign aide. We wouldn't you to accept money from an uncool nation.
I travel regularly between the USA and Europe!!
Who gave them the right to give my flight data to Ashcroft??!!
WANKERS!
The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
Passenger profiling helps terrorists and organized crime.
Or else the submitter was trying to prove that editors DON'T read any articles to see if they are accurate.
I can understand asking for a passanger list - who knows, it may even speed up the line in Immigration, but anything more is a clear invasion of privacy.
"For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert"
I wanted "Anti-SPAM" action, not "Anti-HAM"!!
Wait, there are still airliners with food? And here I was packing by brown-bag-breakfast next to my brown-bag-lunch for next week's trip!
Anyone else remember a time before "Meal" meant "cracker with micro-slab of cheese"?
Pork was not mentioned anywhere in the article. Insinuations of Nazism and anti-semitism need not apply, and are only figments of the submitter's hatred for the US, and your ignorance.
Next time, engage your brain before you show your ass.
Hokey statistics and ancient misconceptions are no match for a good thought in your head, kid!
The Pork issue is good, I'm glad, although Terrorist may or may not hijack on an empty stomach, at least it's a start of some logical profiling from that disgusting cesspool of terror dormatories known as the EU. We all know not all muslims are terrorist... but so far...ALL Terrorist have been Muslims.
If someone had recognized the buying patterns of the terrorists before Sept 11, there is a very good possibility they would not have happened. It's a fact the terrorists bought blocks of tickets on the flights and flew them more than once as practice runs. Suppose a search turns up that the same credit card has been buying large blocks of seats or buying seats on multiple flights the same day. 99.9% of the time it turns out to be nothing but that 0.1% turns out to be the time the planes are flown into skyscrapers. I truly hate to be anti-conspiracy theory since it's so popular here but if the government knowing the CC number you booked the flight with or that you don't like pork chops saves the lives of 3000 people, I am all for it.
Apparently, despite yesterdays story it is OK for our good ol' government to stalk you. Too weird that these two stories appeared so close to each other.
One man's pink plane is another man's blue plane.
Did you read the article? There is no mention of pork in it. You are just another Anti-American idiot that jumps to conclusions that America is a racist nation. Jerk.
Its usually Salmon or Sushi in first class.
More carry on baggage too, which might come in handy....
and whether or not they asked for a meal without pork.
Well, that covers Muslims and Jews! See, Bush is the great bringer together guy!
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
Never had to fill in a customs form I take it?
:)
And I would also like to think you for your very own knee-jerk reaction--the article didn't even mention the word pork! Thanks for playing
I used to order the "Moslem meal" every time I was flying since it seemed to be a lot more tasty than the traditional crap. When travelling more frequently, I noticed that they dont vary the moslem meal very often and if I would fly more than 2 flights / week I would get the same dish when ordering the Moslem meal - so I switched back to the traditional junk.
I guess, now that the US has access to flight details, they'll think Im a terrorist. Pity. But on the other hand - the way the US has behaved since the sep11, I dont really feel like going there.
The paranoid people of the US should spend some more time with ppl from South Africa, England, Northern Ireland, Spain etc. to get a bit of distance. As terrorist attacks seem to happen more often in the US nowadays, you cant afford this brain-paralysis to set in as soon as a bomb goes off. The only people served by that behaviour are the terrorists.
plane into the side of a building, and I had never eaten pork before, then might be the time I would like to try it for the first time . . .
Before you mod this as "troll", know that, instead of posting, I could have modded all the "funny" posts as "trolls" simply out of spite that there are so many people out there more funny than me. Think about that before modding, ok?
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
REplying to myself here, but pork isn't mentioned in the linked article.
HOWEVER, the pork thing might not be entirely made up. An airline reservation company (Sabre Group) *was* prohibited by a Swedish court from transferring information about "whether a passenger is Jewish and prefers a kosher meal" to the USA. This might be the source of the submitter's "pork" comment. This was a Swedish law, but it's similar to the EU guidelines.
More info: link
-- Rick
yes, he's a terrorist.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Does this sort of thing drive the rest of you as nuts as it does me? I'm a 20 year old, white male, who happens to look "punk" (dyed hair, dark clothes, stuff like that). I cant go NEAR an airport, without being stopped by security about a dozen times. I'm always the one singled out to have his luggage checked, and I'm always the one inconvenienced.
I'm _NOT_ a terrorist. Is it just me, or have most airport security guards seen a few too many bad movies? Here's a tip for you guys: the terrorists will PROBABLY not be dressed or otherwise look anything other than ordinary. People who are going to do bad things generally try not to draw attention to themselves.
I think we could all save ourselves a lot of grief if airport security was given a vaguely realistic training session.
Sometimes I wonder if this isnt all just an attempt to give peace of mind to people such as the yuppie group who live in America... As such, I question weather or not an inititive like this would actually have effect without causing descrimination (which America stereotypically as a whole is seems to be against). I'm a little more suspicious of giving them my credit card number then I am weather I like white meat.
On the other hand, does anyone know how Israel has delt with airports? I watched a documentary on PBS or TLC once about it and remember that their security is down right anal, yet they *seem* to have fewer problems. My suggestion would be to follow in those footsteps and avoid this hodgepodge attempt at false security. Granted, it probably wont happen due to increased delays and lack of convinience to the American traveler... bah
Speaking of security this came to mind again:
"Those who are willing to sacrifice liberty for safety, deserve NEITHER liberty nore safety..." Benjamin Franklin (quote taken from memory, not reference, probably worded differently)
Page
We don't need an "overrated" so much as we need a "you completely missed the parent's point, dumbass..."
Last I heard, Pork was "the other white meat". It's beef that's considered RED MEAT. Beef is both Halal and Kosher and thousands of Texas cattlemen would string you up suggesting that god-fearing Americans choose Pork over Beef. You know what happened to Oprah...YOU'RE NEXT, YANKEE!
It's astronomically stupid to provide the press with the exact criteria that they are going to be using.
Ok, so they want to know if you ordered a meal without pork. So, if you're a terrorist, you now know that you need to avoid asking for a special meal.
That doesn't mean that you're going to eat that meal, of course. But now they know what not to ask for to avoid being flagged.
Agreed. Despite regular 4- and 5-hour flights, I have yet to actually get any meal on an airline flight. I didn't think they even served them anymore.
"Yes, I'd like two tickets to San Francisco, and would like to request that my Peanut-Based Snack Medley and One Quarter-Can of Coke on Ice be pork-free."
So now all the Terrorists will ask for a meal with Pork and just not eat it to evade the "security" measures?
Apart from the meals preference (which is not mentioned in anywhere in the article that I could see) all of this information is collected by immigration authorities already - and not just in the US but in most countries. International passengers are usually required to provide immigration authorities with information about identity, itinery (i.e. where you came from and where you are going), and finances. As far as I know it has not been common to collect information about how tickets were purchased, but it is common to collect other sorts of financial information about visa applicants.
Anyway, immigration authorities can and already do collect far more information than is provided for in this new measure. The only real difference is that they will now do it before you get onto the plane, rather than when you get off. In light of recent events this is hardly an unreasonable step.
If they start asking for the same data from El Al that 'pork' thing is gonna cause a few problems.
Cool! I hope they catch one of them TERRORISTS and skin'em alive.
This is an interesting data point to want to collect, but how much does it really mean? Both Islam & Judaism shun pork, but only the former are "known" to be the bomber type. And if someone was going to do something, couldn't they take the generic meal & not eat it? (I know that personally I wouldn't want to have my last meal be a tray of warmed over airline food -- yuck.) Or if they really want to avoid suspicions, just not eat the part they find offensive? That seems best for someone that assumes thie meal choice is going to raise suspicions & wants to keep a low profile.
It seems to me that the meal choice is something that a person who is up to something would either [a] be too preoccupied to worry about, or [b] would think of & take a non-obvious choice (like the default meal, or a vegetarian meal) in order to avoid suspicions. Either way, the "bad guys" aren't going to do the obvious thing, and you end up with a crude form of racial profiling for thousands of honest people. How is that helpful?
The George Buh [sick] security doctrine: grasp at enough straws & throw out enough civil liberties and maybe, just maybe, you can trick the public into believing that these policies are going to do a whit of good. Remarkably, it seems to be working, if only domestically...
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
by Ashcroft, J., Bush, G. W., Cheney, R. B., Poindexter, J., and
Rumsfeld, D.
Thanks for nothing.
Impeach The Cheney-Rumsfeld Cabal
Cheers,
W00t
Has it ever occure to people that the bad guys will have a select number of CC accounts to use? Hrm? Great Spirit, /. is becoming a breeding ground of mind numbed robotic leftist who refuse to think for themselves. No wonder why VA Software is trading for less then a buck...
Dammy
Or, "It's in your mouth. It's pork." This was a line from an actual Pork Board TV ad. Beavis and Butt-Head would love it.
...was thinking of going there and visit some friends... but now I don't want to contribute with a single $ to mr. Dubya and company. I guess I'll have to wait untill a sane goverment replaces this one.. :-| ..
All this homeland security BS makes me wonder what the U.S. is fighting for. Is it for the democratic ideal? It it for the ability to live in the "Land of the Free"? The democratic process seems to have been hijacked years ago by lobbyists and soft money. The american democracy is more of an oligopoly now. As for the land of the free, this seems to be little more than some mantra that the U.S. government uses to reassure the people whilst they grab more powers. I know that this is a bit of a rant, but all this is beginning to piss me off (a bit).
This is no more than information the airline has already collected on you anyways, and nothing that cant be found with a little effort. This just streamlines the process.
And, of course, if you dont like it, dont come to America. You're neither wanted nor welcome here. Stay in your socialist dreamlands.
Did everyone forget that the terrorist paid everything with cash when attacked on 9/11? What good would have credit card information have done? They paid cash for flying school, cash for tickets, travel and accomendations. I would be more interest in flagging people who paid in cash.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. --Edmund Burke
uhhh....ever hear of the Oklahoma federal building bombing?????????
sheesh!
Uhh. Nevermind.
There is Japanese tale of 47 Samurai (http://www.jon-schmid.com/japan1/Sengakuji.htm) who dishonored themselves to avenge the death of their master. By drinking and whoring and partying they made the assassin (the neighboring warlord) believe they were no threat, and so they were able to walk right in and kill the guy. They, having avenged their master's death, had to kill themselves afterwards to undo the dishonor.. making them heroes... in a sense.
Could not a really devout terrorist do the same too? Ordering pork (its not like they need to actually eat it), appearing anything BUT a terrorist,so as to infiltrate these security methods and commit some act?
meh
its poles, or polanders, or prons, or something...
Learn to spell, and dont give me this, well english isnt my first language, because if it wasnt you should learn it!
The 9/11 hijackers flew on the same flights again and again. This should have been noticed. Having a database to non-invasizely track the movements of people is just fine by me.
If I'm not a terrorist, what do I have to worry about or care if the government knows I'm coming back from a delightful vacation or business trip?
Clearly private data like CC#s should be kept secure, but folks need to stop whining about privacy for privacy's sake. Start accepting that taking reasonable actions in collecting intelligence could help in preventing another terrorist attack.
Robo-Blogs of the world: UNITE!
Of course, I didn't read the article. If one reads the articles posted here how could one possible have time to reply to assholes like you!
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
Second only to frisking little old ladies in bringing your security station up to the state of the art.
The idiotic thing is that I very much doubt Al Quaida will ever again try to use an Airplane as a bomb, or even hijack one. Why? The customers won't sit still for it any more. There have been a number of cases since 9-11 where would-be hijackings etc. have been stopped by the PASSENGERS. The equation is changed. The bottom line is that all the airline security garbage is nothing but a feel-good measure that does little or nothing about the fundamental problem - which is that you've got a lot of medium crazy people who want to kill Americans.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
Bombing your own country seems to be a very successful venture. Have a political goal? Bomb yourself! Makes people reeeeal maleable. Want to create a surveillance state? Bomb yourself and watch it happen.
Things Uncle Sam would like to know about passengers include their itinerary, their credit card number and whether or not they asked for a meal without pork.
None of the posted links suggests that food profiling would be used. Also, the third link to the CAPPS II program is misleading because it hasn't been approved yet.
I am just curious is all. On my last trip home from England, British Airways mistakenly classified me as a vegitarian.
Enjoy,
It's just the normal noises in here.
since I'm 100% vegetarian... meaning no pork meal for me... USA = u suk amerika
That it's all that difficult to get on a plane anonymously?
How hard is it to steal a CC# and charge a plane ticket online? The owner won't know until their next CC statement. Pick it up at one of the personable little kiosks in every airport where you don't need to talk to a person. Change the picture / name or print up a fake ID.
Oh my god. Did I just defeat our vaunted homeland security?
It's the price we pay for freedom folks. You can't fix it. But you CAN permanently damage people's human rights. We all know how eager the government is to give up even the tiniest bit of power, be it over information or something else.
dumb ass - - its proles,
or proletariat - read the fscking book.
learn something from school, and don't give me this - im not educated, im american bullshit.
We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition.2000.
proleNOUN: A proletarian: "If there is hope . . . it lies in the proles" (George Orwell).
Indeed, one should learn the language before commenting on another's use of it.
Nothing has changed in the minds of our administrators and generals. They have always done this in the past. What has changed is that they need not apologize anymore. They can cut corners and costs. The information that they once had to collect covertly is now available on demand. So now that they demand information publicly, what new depths of covert intelligence is being collected? If this is what they get willingly, what are they taking under cover?
I see the fnords.
If you outlaw the law, only criminals will have laws
You work for a company that is doing a lot of work in a paticular location and have to fly their quite often. I've been on flights with 10 block booked tickets for the project team, then various "suspicious" different routes for the people at the weekend (going to different places to spend the weekend), before "suspiciously" meeting up again and then heading off on mass on the same route.
The US Goverment was told by the French goverment about several of the Sept 11th nut cases, but did nothing. Please tell me how profiling will make that situation better ? They'll trust a Database query over an intelligence agency ?
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
So, THAT's where those 8 million card numbers went!
if i had mod points i'd mod you down as a karma-whoring whiny bitch.
...does not necessarily imply "journalism".
As a number of folks have mentioned, the article notes nothing about requesting pork. To enlighten our slashdot editors such that they might device not to embellish future stories, let me explain why.
Yes, muslims do not eat pork. And yes, anyone who is sufficiently religious to consider it a good idea to die in a suicide bombing for one's faith is very likely to be sufficiently religious not to eat pork.
That said, nobody cares about pork. There's two reasons. The first is false positives. While it takes a pretty screwed up fanatic to be a suicide bomber, there are many people who actually do follow the peaceful teachings of Islam who aren't screwed up but don't eat pork. [0] Couple that with the fact that Jews also eat no pork, and there's a haystack of people who don't eat pork. A religious extremist mad suicide bomber type would be one hell of a hard needle to find.
The other reason is that religious extremist mad suicide bombers are misguided, not stupid. If somebody knows that porkless meals are a red flag, he's not going to order a porkless meal. When the stewardess shows up, he's simply going to say, "no, thank you. I'm not really hungry today" or he'll hand it to the fifteen year old kid in the next row. If you're planning on going to meet Allah tomorrow, well, he's not going to mind if you're a little hungry when you get there. Besides, I'd bet a guy like Allah's got a heavenly catering service.
Since it doesn't take a hell of a lot of thought to realize that pork's irrelevant, it really makes one's position look weak when one has to make stuff up to bolster it. While journalists have been slanted since journalism began, please do realize that your point is driven home much better when you simply present the facts, and don't feel a need to make them up.
[0] Yes, I know. "Aren't screwed up but don't eat pork." Yes. Even bacon. It sounds insane, doesn't it? But I assure....
mmmmmm.... bacon....
Nowhere in the linked articles does it say anything about meal choices being monitored. What is the source for this, other than the word of the original e-mailer? Even if this is just a "News for Nerds" site, I'd appreciate some corroboration to back up a fairly outrageous claim. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof and an e-mail from Joe Anonymous doesn't cut it anymore. I don't expect the New York Times but sheeesh... (Of course, if the Feds are monitoring pig consumption, then I'd like to know. I need to cut back on the pork rinds anyway.)
and if they are the least bit suspicious of your purpose here. I don't care if they let John Ashcroft personally ride next to you with his un-gloved hand rammed in your rear!
Welcome to America 2.0 people.
Every passenger flying to the US from Europe (or elsewhere) has to go through Customs and Immigration. In the I-94 form which non-US-citizens fill in and hand in at the immigration desk, every foreign national records name, passport number, flight number, address in the US, etc. The INS has a complete record of the foreign nationals who flew into the US on each flight.
The article points out that it's the Homeland Security guys who will be getting this data from the airlines, in addition to the INS who already collect this data. This is just another example of redundancy in bureaucracy.
Reportedly, some of the 9/11 terrorists spent their last night on earth drinking and buying lap dances.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
I even refuse to go to USA for my work. I already let my boss know this two years ago and untill today I still have reasons to uphold that position.
:-)
This gives one more good reason for European companies to cooperate with far east (China, Japan mainly) instead of looking for partners in USA.
Unfortunately I have to admit, this is a victory of USA over the European law and this is very sad for us Europeans. I wonder what bad american ideas will invade Europa next and am I a terrorist when I fight against it ?
Actually, I think what will really help out more is if non-Americans pointedly inform Americans how dumb they must be or not-so-slyly hiding the implication in a statement like "I sure hope you're not as dumb as you seem".
Well, AC, I'm sure tired of such attitude.
your sig: I'm so busy pointing out your idiocy/bias I can't see my own!
suffice to say that the tactic of putting a gun to another persons temple and ask nicely for their cash works then (not that I didnt know this already). btw, I will have to extend my usage of my Jack Warner Turd, age 161 and Citizen of Sunset Blvd 001, Beverly Hills, 90210 Californa, USA, phone 0212-1212121 personality more when flying.
The problem in this case is not with the fact that one's meal preference is public, the problem is that the US government potentially uses it to subject people to extra hassles at airports. That's discrimination. And, in fact, my "reasonable expectation" is that if I type my meal preference into Expedia, the flight crew knows it, and the guy sitting next to me on the plane knows it; nobody else has any justification to correlate what I eat with who I am.
It may be costly, it may be time consuming, but the only way a society that wants to be free and open can do passenger screening is by applying non-discrimination uniformly. And, yes, this means more luggage screening. But the alternative in which some people are waved through security because they are of the appropriate racial, ethnic, and religious background, and others are subjected to interrogations will tear a society apart. Do that for a few years, and you will be creating terrorists at home as second class citizens become more and more resentful.
i guess the powers that be have a very short memory indeed. tim mcveigh was a wasp, and before 9/11 he had masterminded the biggest terrorist attack on us soil. ethno/religious profiling isn't going to get us anywhere.
...isn't run on M$-SQL.
"If you have done 6 impossible things this morning, why not round it off with breakfast at Milliways" -- hhgg
Amen! Brutha! That's what I'm talkin about!
Please stay in your own country then. We clearly already have enough problems without you here too!
1) Should U.S. authorities make any attempt to identify potentially dangerous travellers before they enter the U.S.?
2) If so, should they check out every single person? If they are unable for some reason to check out every single person, how should they decide who to check out?
It seems to me that people want to bitch and complain about any attempt identify possible security problems before they occur. I'm curious if these are the same people who criticize the U.S. government for not stopping the 9/11 attacks which, just as a side note, were committed by men who probably would not have eating pork on the way over here.
I was going to leave it at that, but let me throw out an example of why this complaining pisses me off so much: suppose you administered a mail server and wanted to make sure that your machine was not used to send spam. You have noticed in the past a pattern in which accounts were opened with similar information and from a particular IP block, and then those accounts were used to send huge blocks of spam. If one day you see a few new accounts opened following this pattern, is it really that unreasonable to take a few simple steps to check and see if those people start sending spam? Maybe check the logs a few days later, or write a simple script that monitors their port 25 traffic? You haven't kicked them out, you haven't blocked their port; you really haven't done anything other than keep an eye out, based on a known pattern.
The bottom line is, this information is a STARTING POINT. No one is in trouble. No one is prevented from travelling. But you have to start somewhere. Unless, that is, you want to sit back, do nothing, and complain about everything done by those who are actually responsible.
Evil is the money of root.
Comments are due by Monday (Feb. 24) on the Department of Transportation's proposal for a "system of records" tracking massive amounts of information about every air traveler. The proposal is extremely broad and vague, and they are requesting exempt from the requirements of the Privacy Act -- so you would not be allowed to see information is stored about you, or challenge correct incorrect information. Comments must be mailed (not faxed or e-mailed), so get them out quickly to ensure they arrive by Monday.
PrivacyActivism (http://www.privacyactivism.org) has a page (http://www.privacyactivism.org/Items/63) with more information and a sample comment letter.
Why would they need passangers credit card number? Are they going to check if it has been used for purchasing any nuclear weapons in the last 6 months? :)
I know there is nothing about pork in the article, but it does symbolize attributes that might used to profile a passanger. However these type of cultural points are not reliable. If someone is convinced that killing Americans will get them into heaven, they can be easily convinced that eating pork is OK if you are going to be killing Americans. So that profile point becomes moot and gives false positives.
Go look at your teeth. See the pointy ones? Yeah, they are designed for eating FLESH. Not just eating, but also biting, attacking and fending off an attacker. are you not fighting evolution by not biting your competetion at work and in mating? LOL! ...and no body designed them.. they are genetic.
btw.. this website might help you rest some of your myths that Human being is a natural meat eater.
El Al.
never been hijacked.
like it or not - when you get on a plane, you are sometimes less than 10 feet away from having enough power to kill tens of thousands of people.
flying is not a right.... and it is the responsibility of those that operate such powerful equpiment to ensure that no one can get their hands on such power.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
It isn't in any way the fault of Americans or our government that lots of people in the Middle East don't like us. They are simply murderous people, committing murder because of their murderous fundamentalism! (Did I mention that they are murderous?)
Nope, there is no need for, or point in, questioning our country's foreign policy! Those people in the Middle East are going to go out of their way to assault and murder us no matter what!
Therefore, since there is no hope that the minds behind these murderous fundamentalists might change, we're going to go on unilaterally provoking them--hey, may as well, right?--and in the meantime, make the American people safe by carrying out "terrible and unfortunate" invasions of privacy.
Hey, don't complain, those are just "the facts of this modern reality."
Just implant every human on the face of the earth, and track them via GPS 24/7.
That will make us soooooo safe..
( this was sarcasm, if you are too propagandized to tell )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
your point would be valid. And here on /. it's usually to much to ask that people do even that.
But for those who have delved a bit deeper into the issue and hunted around a bit for *other* sources of information we've found that, yes, dietary preferences stated to airline personel are indeed being discussed by officials as one way to profile the religion of a passenger without overtly appearing to do so.
The pork comment stands.
KFG
Personally what they are trying to do is the exact same thing as trying to block SPAM or viruses.
When figuring out whether or not there is a SPAM or viruses the logic has been to use case studies and then build routines on those case studies. This is the wrong approach because what it does is motivate the individual to go around what the system expects.
It is like speeding. If you know what the cop uses as an ideal place to catch speeders you can avoid the cop. It is only when cops use the element of surprise that you get caught.
Well I speed all the time, and I look for the typical signs. And luckily most cops are lazy and fall into the mould.
The better approach would not to have a mould at all and abstract the problem, into "how would a terrorist, SPAMMER or virsus think". And based on those thoughts create your detection routines.
Granted the SPAMMER or terrorist or virsus would attempt to figure you out, but you need to hold the element of surprise. You need to add "random" thoughts to your tactics.
The reason why I am thinking about this is that I am discussing with a friend on how to build a SPAM detector that cannot be circumvented by the SPAMMER. Since that fight is getting bad....
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
People who have to explain their jokes shouln't be making them. Karma troll.
The data are supposed...
Thank you for being one of the very, very few people who realize that the word data is in fact plural! I am so tired of seeing "This data is..." and "the data shows..."
datum is singluar.
data is plural.
Data is a Soong-type android.
Thanks.
rooooar
This would be based on the simple fact that muslims don't eat pork. Sure it also include vegetarians, kosher jews, and non-terrorist muslims but oh well. This is far from creating McCarthy/communist type scenario.
Those who think that the US only spouts off propoganda to it's citizens like during other wars need to remember than the US has much more media coverage than then. All of these media companoes have cameras in these foreign countries. Sure, the US has it's occasional commercial saying to join the marines/navy/air force, etc but there are many more media outlets showing the truth involved in these organizations and the true horror of war. Not just what the government wants us to see.
Maybe i'm just a product of Pork industry marketing, but I was under the impression that Pork was not red meat...
"He'd already RATHER be bowhunting!" -Max Filmont
Just because a passenger is an arab returning from training with Bin Laden in one of his camps and a rally with Hamas & Hesbollah in Lebanon. Or left his family to act as human sheilds in Iraq and is booked on a one way flight to the US, doesn't mean we infidels should rush to any politically incorrect generalizations.
This issue is tricky in respect to treating information as property and involvement of multi-national corporations. The arguments go beyond American constitutional law, specifically the expectation of privacy, into the sale and disclosure of information to third parties. With corporations and government agencies as intermediaries, it easily circumvents the issue of searches conducted without a warrant.
It gets muddy in that travel is not considered an inalienable right and therefore the information disclosure is a voluntary requisite for travel. I sometimes ask corporations for their privacy policies and it drives them insane when I ask them about how long my data will live in their database, if there is a procedure to request purging of such data, and how long my carbon copied forms are kept on record. A somewhat wishy-washy corporate stance regarding exchange of information can foil attempts at protecting database privacy. While it may be against the laws of one country (against the wishes of a corporation or second country) to disclose such information, given the fact that the database data may reside in multitude of countries where an agency is willing to disclose is either a benefit (for the government) or a problem for the privacy sensitive consumer. This problem extends to almost all things that live in a world of wide connectivity and needs to seriously be dealt with through international privacy law.
that Homeland Security Agency is at the present time not able to process the data that is provided... We have ~25 european airlines with each its proprietary system, that are not compatible to the systems that HSA is using...
Millions of records get lost for the moment, until the Windows NT/2000 server machines are able to cope with the data the Unix servers of the european airlines are bombarding them with...
I will never go in such police-state as the US. Dear god, not 5 years ago they were all mockinh the UdSSR for being a police state but it looks that they are on the bad to worse slide themselves.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
It's all so easy to criticize. In fact, I think there is little that this administration will ever do that will not draw negative ideas from the leftists.
What I'd like to hear from you though, is what would be the alternative criteria that is workable today with the existing infrastructure, that will allow the govt to operate more efficient when it comes to the prevention doctrine ?
As always, it's all so easy to sit on your ass and whine. Eh ?
http://www.privacyactivism.org/Item/63
Sorry about that.
...of the tools for an airline I won't precise and I will try to remain anonymous thank you. The article don't mention pork but what they have access [the US custom] is what we call the PNR or Passenger Name Record (english acrnoym so I may be wrong on the translation) which include : the meal, the inbound the outbound , the credit card, and soon with APIS the passport number , Everything which has somehow be written in your PNR will be comunicated. E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G. Get it ? So if it is written you asked for an HAJJ meal well it is written there. Ig you travel in group with friend it is written there. If you came from (let us say) Irak as Inbound it is written there. Trust me , I program for those things as a living.
To kill this once and for all: a beef meal is, well, w/o pork. And beef is more popular than pork in the US and most/all European countries.
Must-not-watch TV!
I hope your boss see's what an ass you are and fires you.
USA! USA! USA!
We don't want your fucking kind here anyways!
BTW, tell your sob story to Reader Digest because no one fucking cares...asshat.
If you order red meat, isn't that a sign that you're a communist?
Let's say you're a terrorist. Now that you know they check anyone that orders pork, the solution seems simple. Don't order pork? Jeez...What is the point of this database then? All it does is target those people who are Muslims/Jews/Whatever who aren't planning on doing anything wrong. The logic escapes me....
The Welkin: Online Music Reviews
They're spending $billions on all these countermeasures to stop airline terrorists? They'll find some other way to attack. They probably planned on not using the airlines again if they had an idea for another attack.
Really? Never been done before? I'm sure the people in Europe and Israel will be pleased to know that terrorist are just now starting to target innocent civillians in ways that cause increasing casualties and fear. The only remarkable things about the September 11 attacks were that A) The scale of damage was more than even they had planned, due to the towers collapsing, and B) it was a rare attack on US soil, whereas before we'd been able to get complacent due to the fact that most targets were "US interests overseas."
The scale of the attacks is one thing that hadn't been seen, really since the attack on Pearl Harbor durring WWII. These attacks were carried out by foreign nationals at incredible distance from their countries of origin. Other then the previous World Trade Center bombing and the events at one of the 1970's Olympic Games, I have not personally heard of such great lengths being made to perpetrate murder on such a scale.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
"Ok, ladies and gentlemen, for our meal service today, we have a choice of chicken, fish, a vegetarian dish, or our terrorist surprise. Thank you and enjoy your meal."
Actually, I tended to order vegetarian airline meals even back when I was carnivorous; they usually were better-tasting and not as heavy, and you can get just as deranged from having to eat meat-based airline meals, which also tend to come with squushy bread-like things as opposed to the styrofoam rice cakes that vegies get.
Note: None of this applies to Air France....
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
as "overrated" (you suck) or "flamebait" for karma-whoring, understand that, instead of posting this, I could have posted an explanation of how I could have posted a post explaining how I could have used my mod points instead of posting, which would have clearly been karma-whoring. But this is clearly is not.
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
And you know that, how?
Osama Bin Laden declared a Jihad, also known as a Holy War on the people of the United States and their interests. To his fundamentalist friends and followers that means they must destroy the US to be "given" their place in heaven. This is their belief.
Do you have terrorist connections?
No, I have no terrorist connections. However, I do have a basic understanding of the situation and a basic understanding of Islam. I practice no religion and have no intention of practicing any religion. I do know that Osama is a man quite like David Karesh was and Osama's followers will follow him to the grave in order to fulfill their warped sense of reality.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
This type of thing is dangerous, not because the people
handling security are evil or immoral. Its dangerous
because they are stupid. And stupid people make
LOTS of mistakes and then tend to cover
them up or point at someone else.
We have a guy here at work. His name is something
like John Smith (just that non-descript). Well there
happened to be a guy in Australia with the same name
who killed a DEA agent in some drug fiasco. So heres
the thing, EVERY time our local John goes to fly (often),
The computer at the terminal freezes and
the cops are called. They require him to GO TO THE
POLICE STATION every time. Once his identity has
been confirmed as not the bad guy, he gets to go
back to the airport and ALWAYS gets selected for
the full meal-deal search at the gate.
Now after the first 20 times this happened, the people
at the airport learned to recognize
him.
Once, they called the Police (required) and said yeah
its the same guy can we put him through. The police
said sure. He went onto the plane got out onto the
runway. AND THEY CALLED THE PLANE BACK.
They made him go to the Police station (just following
procedure). He missed the flight. He missed the meeting.
And this will NEVER stop.
He's called congressmen, govenors, FBI, everyone.
They can do NOTHING about it. No-one is in charge.
And this will happen to EVERYONE named John Smith.
Or any variation of that name. FOREVER.
If a Senator cannot fix this. If the FBI cannot fix this,
then please explain to me how this is a Democracy.
If you cannot fix something by getting your elected
officical involved (and they were extremely
understanding), then how is this a Democracy?
People moan about the coming Security State and
say that all these evil people will have too much
power in Washington. They are just missing the
point. NO ONE WILL BE IN POWER. And nothing
will EVER be able to fix it.
Impeach Ashcroft, J., Bush, G. W., Cheney, R. B, Poindexter, J.,
Rumsfeld, D., and Ridge, T.
Thank you and have a fascist day!!
Nice copy/paste job, moron. What's the matter, can't form a coherent thought of your own so you have to steal it from others? Jeez, at least next time take out the carriage returns. Fucking idiot.
Impeach Ashcroft, J., Bush, G. W., Cheney, R. B., Poindexter, J., Rumsfeld, D., and Ridge, T.
Thank you and have fascism-free day !!
Cheers,
W00t
Spend billions on infrastructure and equipment, let the government smash it flat in the name of a war nobody's allowed to criticize.
Feels so damn good you gotta do it again!
Heiniken? Fuck that shit! Victory Lite Beer!
Yeah, there are nasty people out there wanting to kill us.
But I find increased government power far more scary. Remember that more than 90% of all mass killings have been done by governments, including the US federal government.
If that gets out of hand, and anything that has unchecked power will abuse that power, we will long back to the rosy happy innocent days of only fearing a rag tag band of deranged lunatics.
You made my point even more clear. :-)
No other country seems to be bragging so much about how great they are as USA. And doing such as an Anonymous Coward does fit you
My boss and I have a perfect understanding. Something you may not comprehend.
The important words are "to the airline". Not to the US government.
In Europe there are laws that indicate that I have the right to demand any organisation or company what information they have of me, that I have the right to command changes in that information, and that I have the right to order that information to be removed, and that they are obliged to disclose to whom they have passed on what information.
Thus, I give the information to the airline, knowing that they will be careful with it, that I can at any time ask them exactly what they have done with my information, then in turn contact companies that they have given my information to and do the same, until no more trace of my information can be found. As a European citizen, I have that right.
Does the US government acknowledge that right?
If they do not, then they have no right to access my information. Since I only agreed to give that information to those organisations or companies that respect those rights.
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
To err is human, to moo bovine
I have to disagree with you. IMHO, your analogy fails because it equates all profiling with racial discrimination. This is not true.
If someone has gang tattoos, dresses in gang colors, hangs in a neighborhood with alot of gang activity and stands on the corner making gang signs, that person has a high probability of being a member of a gang. If the gang the person is associated with is known for dealing drugs, then it would be reasonable to suspect the person is also a drug dealer.
If someone is wearing a suit and tie, carries a brief case and laptop, and is talking legalese into a cell phone, it is a good bet that person is involved in the legal profession.
If someone is flying on a one way ticket paid for with a credit card that has been used to purchase tickets for known terrorists, is using a name similar to a known terrorist, and requests a meal without pork, there is a high probablity that person is a terrorist, or is linked to a terrorist group. It may be worth while to observe and investigate that person.
Profiling is used every day, and not just by the government. When one applies for a job, one is profiled by the contents of one's CV. When one purchases insurance for a car, the insurance company basis it's quote on profiles. Marketing companies use profiles constantly.
When you see someone on the street, you look at them and profile them by how they look. You may not want to admit it, but it is true. Everyone does it.
It is foolish and costly to bury one's head in the sand and pretend profiling does not work. Serial killers are most likely to be middle-aged white men. Gang members are most likely to be young, urban, and middle class or below. A politician is most likely going to be a rich white guy.
Like it or not, profiles work.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
If you disagree with this, do everything you can to match the targted demographic especially if you're nowhere near it. If you're Muslim, start eating pork on airliners. If you're not, do things that show you might be. You get the picture. Throw off the statistics and help make this all a big waste of money, and the idiots who come up with this bullshit will be nailed for their wasteful tactics.
Why bother.
I'd like to book a return flight to New York. - Would you like that with Pork? - No thanks. That's allright.
http://stephan.sugarmotor.org
The EU citizens don't need to jump through hoops to get a Visa to come here. You fill in a form ON THE PLANE and get in. Given this lax approach it is reasonable that they run some checks and have some background info on who is arriving.
Perhaps you would rather that you have to go to the consulate weeks in advance and apply for a visa, with an interview and background checks as is common with most citizens of countries visiting other countries (not just the US).
do you use unix/linux? it IS fscking.
(In case you are a dumbass, fsck is a command)
-Siggy!
It even has a name: Takkiye. Correct transliteration may be different. So you can be sure now even if all sides discredit the story, every terrorist looking like/carrying identity of a muslim will ask for pork-less dishes and those in disguise will never ever ask for pork-less dishes.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
Ever since the UN starting proposing splitting the land into two states, one jewish, one arab, each new map has created a larger and larger arab state and smaller and smaller jewish state. Every single time, the jews were willing to accept this, and every single time the arabs refused.
It isn't just that the arabs want a new country for the Palestinians (who have NEVER had an independent country throughout all of history), the arabs don't want any jews. The Palestinians are pawns for the other arab countries, and they seem content to play out that role.
Here's an column written by Martin Sherman on Dec 26, 2002 at IsraelNationalNews - yeah, it's heavily biased by the fact that he's jewish, but still quite an interesting read anyways:
----
Article 16: "...the people of Palestine, desiring to befriend all nations which love freedom, justice, and peace, look forward to their support in restoring the legitimate situation to Palestine... and [in] enabling its people to exercise national sovereignty and freedom."
Article 24: "This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, [or] on the Gaza Strip..."
Article 26: "The Liberation Organization... does not interfere in the internal affairs of any Arab states."
These excerpts from the Palestinian National Charter, as it was formulated in 1964 by the inaugural convention of the Palestinian National Council in Cairo (where the Palestinian Liberation Organization was founded) are of significant consequence, for they point to a fundamental fallacy in the authenticity of the Palestinian claims for national self-determination. As can be seen, they explicitly eschew any claims of sovereignty in the territories of Judea and Samaria (the "West Bank") and the Gaza Strip, which they openly concede to the jurisdiction of the Jordanians and the Egyptians respectively.
This seriously cuts away the ground from under any claim that the "West Bank" and Gaza constitute the Palestinians ancient and long-yearned-for motherland, and to which they have unalienable and inexorable rights. On the one hand, this submissive concession of sovereignty over these territories to non-Palestinian rule indicates a remarkable malleability in the national aspirations of the Palestinians, which seems to fly in the face of conventional wisdom.
On the other hand, it is entirely consistent with the position taken by the late Zuheir Muhsin, formerly the head of the PLOs Military Department and member of its Executive Council.
Almost a decade and a half after the first public endorsement of the Palestinian Charter, on March 31, 1977, Muhsin made the following declaration in an interview with the Dutch daily Trouw: "There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity, because it is in the interest of the Arabs to encourage a separate Palestinian identity. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel."
It thus appears that there is room for the "heretical" postulation that the true Palestinian desire is not really a state. Indeed, perhaps the time has come to suggest most of the prevailing conventional wisdom regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is totally unfounded, even misguided. For according to this wisdom, the fuel of the conflict is the lack of Palestinian self-determination, and that the goal of the Palestinians struggle is to establish a state for themselves. However, the competing explanation, which seems to emerge from the words and deeds of the Palestinians themselves, is quite the opposite. According to this explanation, the fuel of the conflict is not the lack of Palestinian self-determination, but the existence of Jewish self-determination. As long as Jewish self-determination persists, so will the conflict. Moreover, according to the alternative explanation, the goal of the Palestinians is not to establish a state for themselves but to dismantle a state for others - the Jews.
The question that now arises is: Which of these two alternative versions has the greater explanatory power? The answer seems to be unequivocally the latter. For it offers eminently plausible explanations for a range of events, which the former is powerless to account for.
For example:
- It explains why every territorial proposal, which would have allowed them to create a state of their own (from the 1947 partition plan to Baraks offer at Camp David in 2000), never satisfied Arab leadership.
- It explains why only the total negation of Jewish independence would appear acceptable to the Palestinians, as evidenced not only by their rejection of any viable offer for statehood, but by much of their rhetoric and symbolism, in which they invariably portray the whole the Land of Israel, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, as constituting part of Arab Palestine.
- It explains not only why the Palestinians refrained from attempting to exert their national sovereignty in the pre-1967 "West Bank" (as evidenced by their original National Charter), but why today the Palestinians, as an overwhelming majority in Jordan, resign themselves to the rule by a Hashemite Bedouin despot, who represents the minority in the land.
- It explains not only why they rejected the far-reaching generosity of the Barak proposal, but also the violent manner in which they rejected it.
- It explains why the Palestinians stubbornly insist on the "right of return," which would imply placing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians now living in Arab lands under Israeli jurisdiction. It is hardly consistent with an alleged desire to be free of oppressive Israeli control or with an equitable two-state solution.
By contrast, none of the above phenomena can be reconciled with the explanation propounded by the advocates of conventional wisdom. For, in reality, the Palestinians appear to have little motivation in expressing their national sovereignty in territories when they are under non-Palestinian, but Arab, rule. Strangely, this desire only manifests itself in these territories when they fall under Jewish rule. Indeed, Palestinian efforts seem far more comprehensible if seen as directed toward the the undermining and elimination of Jewish sovereignty (by demanding either Israeli withdrawals, where possible, or Arab repatriation, where not), than in the realization of their own independence.
If this is true, then making ever more generous proposals regarding Palestinian statehood will be totally unproductive, indeed counterproductive, for these will induce no peaceable response whatsoever. After all, as Muhsin said, "The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel."
It will be of great interest to see which explanation the next Israeli government adopts as the foundation of its policy toward the Palestinians - that which has considerable power to account for Palestinian behavior, or that which has none.
Government IS the problem.
In Sweden, "just as popular with the intelligence community as john young"; Jan Gillo (writer and columnist - not communist.) wrote in an article recently that whenever he traveled to the Usa, he had to spend some time in a room along with moslems and "the usual suspects", obviously someone provided the customs that he had been critical to the state (and particulary) the intelligence community when he digged up the secret IB (Information Bureau) affair some time ago.
>..and whether or not they asked for a meal without pork. The data are supposed to help prevent terror attacks and are to be 'handled appropriately'."
So, basically; if someone is served pork by mistake - he joins Al Quaida? Or?
If they're willing to fly themselves into a building or set themselves alight, odds are they might just be able to force down a pork chop on the flight over in the interest of protective coloration. Ya think?
I heard this on NPR and the US government finally convinced the EU by saying they would follow US privacy laws. That was a shock to me. The shock was that we had such laws. I already knew the government is exempt from most laws if someone whispers, "National Security." I'm sure they'll just not tell the EU that they are obeying the law by saying it doesn't apply to them.
...and whether or not they asked for a meal without pork.
Why are they looking for Jews?
1] The Pork thing is awful! But fundamental terrorists are likely to be dedicated enough to their religion to go along with it.
True. So they will not indicate a meal preference, and if Pork arrives they will simply feel ill, or not hungry, or say they didn't order a meal. Useless criteria now the public know about it.
2] The US is invading my privacy!
Don't fly to the US. It's real simple.
For the uninformed, and those who think everything revolves around americans: the comment about pork fits only because those who practice the Muslim (as well as Judaism, etc.) religions have a law where they cannot eat any products that come from pigs. There are a lot more laws like that, but it is one of the most well known to those outside of those belief systems.
All the areas in the world where this has happened (he gave Bosnia and Kosovo as examples of where the Muslims had successfully "taken over"), have had corrupt governments to begin with, and it is hardly surprising that people wanted to govern themselves. Apart from the odd nutter though, there doesn't seem to be much call for it in modern democracies, even though the Islamic population is approaching double figures in many European countries now.
The absolute best defence is randomness. There is no possible strategy that can defeat randomness.
By profiling people - in any way whatsover - all you are doing is telling a potential hijacker what not to do.
The 9/11 hijackers did a number of flights to determine what would trigger the "alarms" and what wouldn't. Exactly the same thing will happen here until we reach a point where the only people to set off a search alarm will be honest citizens. The real criminals will have made sure that they have faded perfectly into the background.
However, if you search people randomly then the criminal will never know if he can sneak past or not.
I shouldn't find it surprising anymore how much people twist history to suit their needs.
.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
"The Palestine problem became an international issue towards the end of the First World War with the disintegration of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. Palestine was among the several former Ottoman Arab territories which were placed under the administration of Great Britain under the Mandates System adopted by the League of Nations pursuant to the League's Covenant (Article 22)
All but one of these Mandated Territories became fully independent States, as anticipated. The exception was Palestine where, instead of being limited to "the rendering of administrative assistance and advice" the Mandate had as a primary objective the implementation of the "Balfour Declaration" issued by the British Government in 1917, expressing support for 'the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people'. "
Look at these maps:
http://domino.un.org/maps/pal_maps.htm
If anything, these show exactly the opposite of what you state above. Since the formation of the jewish state, the size has increased dramatically through war and settlements.
Thanks!
If the UN were to propose splitting California into two states, one Hispanic, one American, how big would the American part need to get before the Americans were prepared to accept it?
But it's much more useful than that - if they're able to collect all that information, they can correlate it with people who give money to the Green Party or peace groups or environmental groups (some of whom are already on the TSA's not-allowed-to-fly lists because of their political incorrectness.) Also, the increased "information sharing" between the US civilian police agencies, spook agencies, and military, plus the redefinitions of lots of forms of vice as "national security" issues means that they can use those hotel bills from Humboldt County, California to decide to give your luggage a lot of extra attention when you're flying back from Amsterdam, or ask the Internal Revenue Service to check out your tax returns after that trip to Las Vegas just in case you might have been "money laundering" or passing some cash to that suspicious Penn fellow.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I have to agree with you on this one. The US is way to obsessed with CC numbers. Somehow they magically believe that a CC history can tell you everything there is to know about a person.
Sadly, their conclusions are more often than not the complete opposite of what they should be. e.g. I can guarantee you that anybody that requested the CC history of the head honchos at Enron or Worldcom would have been blown away by how "good" these people were.
May I please have a Congress without Pork?
--
Suppose I were a member of Congress, and suppose I were an idiot. But I repeat myself. - Mark Twain.
...is not going to be the friendly melting pot it promised to be, after all.
And I always thought that big brother would come from some disgruntled eastern-block socialist group. A terrible crime is being committed as a result of fear and hysteria. Sure we need to combat terrorism, but is it worth the loss of everyones individual rights and freedom.
It is hardly surprising, but still a real disappointment that the country that has the ability to protect freedom is the country that seems to be the quickest to try and curtail freedom.
Shame on the US government, and also Shame on the British and Australian governments for being so easily led in this. As an Australian, I am disgusted by that little "toad" of a Prime Minister who does nothing but continually suck up to foreign governments without taking into account the needs of his own people. As an australian, I apoligise to the rest of the world for my countryman's behaviour... His beliefs are not shared by all.
I for one do not condone any action taken that leads to anyone's personal freedom being abused, and I regret the day that my own country does the same as what the US is doing today.
Ashamed.
OK, I will admit that the gripe about meal preference was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, but my point stands on what the current administration is making this "war on terrorism" look like. Such reactions are not entirely without merit--I wouldn't put it past Ashcroft and Co. to want meal preferences with the passenger list.
I stand firm on the credit card issue. The government simply has no business asking for my CC number; they don't need it, and I won't disclose it. What if I didn't have one?
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
This is another useless measure. The US can't even keep the drugs out of their country. What makes them think they can keep terrorists out? What makes them even think that terrorists would give themselves away like by not ordering pork? The 9/11 hijackers were clean-shaven and drank alcohol the nights before 9/11. Meanwhile US "intelligence" was on the lookout for devout muslims (who don't drink alcohol) with long beards. Religious jews don't eat pork either, BTW.
- Get the pork, but don't eat it
- Don't use a credit card
- Wear western clothes
- Shave
- Travel with a hot babe in skimpy clothing
Is "Homeland Security" really dumb enough to think that they can catch terrorists by getting this information from airlines? Well, they think they can catch terrorists by asking immigrants from certain countries to re-register with the INS, so I guess they really ARE THAT dumb...is not spotted by not eating pork, but by drinking and whoring
NOW we're talking needle in hay-stack...
Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
If you are a "US hating terrorist" you can always order pork and then not eat it. It is really ridiculous to think real terrorists wouldn't somehow get through this system.
I've also been told that to get a work permit in the US nowadays you have to answer questions like "Are you a member of any terrorist organization?" and "Are you a member of Amnesty International?". The first one I can understand (at least if you are trying to catch very dumb terrorists), but the latter one is only unnerving.
IVAN Nethack is not the king anymore.
So the easiest way for terrorists to get into the US is to order meal with pork and then dispose it unnoticed on the flight. All the computer systems will flag them "non-terrorist" and they can pass all security checks without problems. Might help to schedule another, more suspect, person on another flight with similar gate/time so that security staff is distracted..
:(
Oh well, I hope this doesn't count as "circumvention" instructions according to DMCA
Most posters on this subject have spoken about either how a) terrorists could get around it by not ordering special meals or b) it's justified because it helps identify potential terrorists before they act.
I submit that it has nothing to do with terrorism but with a) identifying who is Muslim and b) encouraging/scaring Muslims to abandon religious practice/observance. Remember that the MUKHABARAT (secret services) can't always tell who is Muslim just by the name. Those wily foreigners sometimes change their names and more and more Anglo and African Americans are becoming Muslim.
The same kind of stuff was happening during the FIRST inquisition when Muslims in Spain were trying to hide their religous identity and prohibited items were celebrated in local festivals either to root out stubborn Muslims or to force them to violate their beliefs.
We're in the good old days but now our Chief Inquisitor is an Evangelical named Ashcroft.
If you are a terrorist from an islamic group:
- don't pay with a credit card
- order the normal meal (don't eat the pork)
That sound too simplistic
Go ask your father to fuck yoru sister so you could have a new sister... or do it yourself!
Anyone know if they bought the 9/11 tickets with stolen cards?
http://www.cnn.com/US/9812/16/clinton.iraq.speech/ index.html
Mounir El Motassadeq was convicted of 3,066 counts of accessory to murder, and was "sentenced" to 15 years in jail - less than two days per victim.
Gotta love this:
Before a husband contemplates any physical action, he should ask himself why he should strike her and if it is the solution to the problem.
It is certainly against Islam to beat a good wife. An erring wife should be warned first and advised. If that does not work, then the husband could give her a light beating, the purpose of that being to embarrass rather than inflict pain.
Actually it was/is. Alaska is the one place I really want to visit.
Anyone eating that clearly isn't contemplating living long enough to have to deal with the food poisoning.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
How many years has Israel been under attack - by groups that have done a lot of hijackings. It's a pretty safe assumption that if the PLO or Hamas could have hijacked an El Al flight, they would have.
If this comes from the Israeli book of finding terrorists, I say GOOD!
A slightly better analogy would be one Native American state, and another non-native (European, Hispanic, Asian, African, etc). That doesn't quite compare either, because in the case of Israel/Palestine, *both* groups have an ancient claim to the territory. But then, like in the USA, the more recent (from a certain point of view) ethnic group -- the Jews -- has become the dominant group, economically, militarily, and otherwise. You can't just tell them to go back to the ghettos in Europe or anything like that, just as it wouldn't do any good for America to be given "back" to the Native Americans. It's home now for all of us, native & non-native alike -- after a couple of generations, ancient tradition doesn't mean quite so much.
Not that I have any proposals for the situation, mind you. Like a mathematician [Paul Erdos?] once said, "I don't have an answer for your problem, but I appreciate the complexity of it."
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
Every precaution against terrorism will strengthen censorship, totalitarism and the destruction of democracy. Every citizen should be fully conscious of this.
For the US, the only sensitive way to fight against terrorism is to force the government to implement a foreign policy which doesn't ask for trouble.
It's simple. Where there is a will there is a way. The "nutters" use what technology is available to them to the fullest extent. Examples: 1) They have no need for crypto - they have secure channels of communication. 2) They train their people, probably for years. Let's face it, the US Gov. has to watch several major groups, obviously North Korea and not so obvious, Burma, amoung other groups. There isn't the time or the money to do without technology... ...Unless you and alot of other people volunteer with out pay.
The article does not mention anything about passenger meal choices being disclosed. In any case, catching a terrorist might not be as simple as checking whether he or she ate pork on the flight. Muslim youth are misled into terrorist camps after being told that they would be fighting for their religion and therefore living the life of a righteous Muslim. However, part of their 'training' includes instruction on how to blend in seamlessly with Westerners. In particular, there are lessons where they do the unthinkable for a Muslim - eat pork and drink alcohol. I don't have a link to back this up with at the moment, but I have seen this story thanks to a friend from Palestine. Profiling might be prudent, but remember that the terrorists aren't stupid.
I prefer to think about much happier futures, say, something like Clarke's vision of what 2001 was to be like. (Funny how this actual year passed without the same sort of attention that Orwell got in '84...seems like such a long time ago...) It was a very positive view of what the world could be, not unlike the Utopia of the Star Trek universe. UNlike Orwell, however, the forces of greed and power will ensure that these universes will never happen, and it's the Orwellian universe that will ultimately take hold, such that the people trying to keep us down remain where they are. It's damn sad, really, because if we didn't have the greed factor to constantly deal with, so much could be done towards the common good, with prosperity for everybody.
Terrorism is not produced by religion. Terrorism is a political phenomonon.
Why is bin Laden attacking the US when he was happy to work with them for a decade? Its not because he hates freedom / prosperity/ applepies (that would probably make him non-human). It is because he wants the US military out of his country.
Yes you can use religion to promote your cause and recruit people, but the basic cause is political.
So when Hekmetyar was attacking the Russian Military he was a freedom fighter. Now that he attacks the US military he is a terrorist? It is the same sort of action for the same reasons, so whay the change in nomenclature?
Lets just stop using the word terrorist please - it is now meaningless...
" All this personal information -- more than 30 data elements including every destination to which we travel, who we travel with, how we pay for the tickets (sometimes including credit card numbers), what contact numbers we provide, even any dietary preferences or health-related requirements we communicate to the airline -- will be available for an almost limitless range of governmental purposes under the broad information-sharing provisions of the Customs Act. ..."
" This is unprecedented. The Government of Canada has absolutely no business creating a massive database of personal information about all law-abiding Canadians that is collected without our consent from third parties, not to provide us with any service but simply to have it available to use against us if it ever becomes expedient to do so. Compiling dossiers on the private activities of all law-abiding citizens is the sort of thing the Stasi secret police used to do in the former East Germany. It has no place in a free and democratic society. ..."
" It is difficult to imagine a more flagrant disregard for the rights of Canadians. This database is legally wrong and morally wrong. If the Government can get away with systematically logging and analyzing all the foreign travel activities of every law-abiding citizen, then no other private activity will long be safe from being included in the same personal dossiers -- our shopping, our banking, our communications, our movements within the country. The "Big Brother" society will be irrevocably upon us. ..."
Unfortunately we in the US don't have anyone in a comparable position as this guy-- an ombudsman of privacy-- so its unlikely this proposal will be revamped to take privacy into consideration. I'd worry that complaining about it will get you on the list, and once there, you can't get off (or even correct data about yourself). Does this new system actually get us additional security for its great loss of privacy? Quoting once more: "...I have suggested that any [proposed new law] must meet a four-part test:
Ok, the 9/11 terrorist attack was a terrible thing. I remember vaguely Bush giving out speeches stating that one must not give up to terrorists, one must not give up freedom etc. Sorry my dear americans, you've lost. You've lost your freedom and you keep loosing it every day as your government introduces new ways to kick Joe Normal to the head. But that's not enough, USA wants to expand their orwellian system to other countries. USA wants to dictate how others should run their system! As one poster said: Why don't US customs/emmigration/whatever official ask the information from the traveller instead of forcing other countries to automatically transfer all kinds of data to US? Why not require visa from everyone? And while we are at it, it's easy to deny visas from any arabic origin person, after all they all come from al-quide and are terrorists.. Zeesh..
The article still makes me wonder certain things.. It states:
I'm a Finn. What USA is asking is against Finnish laws. Our parliament just ended its work and elections are waiting in about a month. There's no chance a law could be passed before March 5. Guess that makes everyone travelling from Finland SOL! (Hey terrorists, this way please!) I'm quite certain, many other countries have to make changes to their privacy laws. All this, because USA is telling to do so. No questions asked, just telling to do so or else...
No wonder USA's reputation is constantly sinking here in Europe..
wonder if this was my first troll/flamebait..
I flew to the USA last year - and the airline told me that my details were sent to the arriving airports officials. Seems fair enough to me - it's your home I'll abide by your rules when I visit.
Now if you(USA) could just make the same effort when you go out to play.
that I've ever had was on Royal Brunei (I should add here that most citizens of that state are Muslim.) You also get a kind of warm fuzzy feeling at the beginning of the flight as they recite an Islamic travel prayer. Of course, the only people who are going to shoot down one of their planes would be the world's biggest terrorists (i.e. the US, if you're incapable of reading between the lines...)
...Tim was an American...
...muslim...
(snip)
Muslim is not a nationality, it is a religiona nd seeing that some of the "official" perpetrators you mention were acting in countries where it is current to be a muslim, I'd say that your comment could be closer to the topic.
Trolling using another account since 2005.
You are basically saying "If you parade your black skin around in public, you don't have any reasonable expectation of privacy, and people should be able to just discriminate against you."
I'll go out on a limb here and say that I would be at ease discriminating based on skin colour. Or sex. Or hair colour. I do it all the time. I bet you do too. Example:
Her: "Which one is Sarah?"
Me: "That young white girl with blonde hair"
Oops! I've just been racist, ageist and sexist to boot. The fact that one discriminates is not in itself a bad thing. It's when one segregates for the purposes of benfitting one group over another.
The benefits here seem to be on the side of white non-muslims. I cannot see how discrimination of this type is beneficial in any way, but please feel free to correct me.
I'll continue to discriminate in my day to day life, thank you very much. And if I'm the only white guy in a group of blacks, why not point me out to someone looking for me as "that white guy"?
Just my 2d worth - not all discrimination is bad, and sometimes, just sometimes, it annoys me when people say it is.
Ceci n'est pas un sig.
Same applies to all data. Some people just don't get it - massive technological surveillance is not enough to get rid of terrorists. You have to use KGB style methods, with detention camps in Siberia (Alaska?) when anyone even remotely suspected would be sent - and an anonymous notice to the authorities should be enough to get there, no fair trial etc. etc. Also, armed guards should be put in each plane with permission to shoot if passengers behave suspiciously and private plane ownership should be abolished.
But even in the soviet russia people hijacked planes (although such planes were silently shot down by their airforce).
After the oil then?
When Pinochet in Chile took power he used the communist party membership list to go hunt down and incarcerate, torture and execute his oponnents.
To make it clear for your insightful self: you have no fscking idea how that information may be used in the future and by whom.
And it will protect your insightful self squat, the terrorists will work around that if they need to.
We require sane security measures that do not destroy the democratic way of life, otherwise we will end with yeat another dictatorship.
Surely your insightful self believes I exagerate. Think about this: today your also insightful Dear Leader can decide you are a terrorist without giving any reason to anybody and making you dissapear from the face of earth leaving no trace and no legal recourse to even ask who is accussing you of what.
And you want to this people more power to know everybody's whereabouts.
Read Kafka, read Orwell.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Yeah, yeah, I know you can get the Whole Can of Coke upgrade, and usually the Multiple Bags of Peanut-and-Cracker-Crumb Snacktastic Combo upgrade as well. And if the attendant is nice, you might even get TWO Cokes, and enough peanuts to actually make a makeshift peanut butter sandwich. You might watch the two-coke thing, unless your bladder is impervious to the mighty diuretic powers of caffeine.
But unless you fly overseas or coast-to-coast, there just aren't any meals anymore. Which isn't *all* bad-- now that the Department of Homeland Waiting at the Airport has given us more time to pick something up at the airport sub shop, you get better food for less.
Here is an scary piece of agreement that should be questioned and opossed vigurously, and what is people more worried about? The fscking pork.
If we are the thinking people then the world is lost.
Honestly.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Any US citizen who doesn't like it can stay home.
Best Slashdot Co
I know that it would be rather impossible for the US to pull out of the Middle East region.
If we had stuck it out in Afganistan, after assisting the Afgans with defeating the USSR, they likely would have developed a better society then the one that grew up out of the desperate and economical wasteland they had been left with. The Taliban likely never would have had the ability to gain the power they had gained.
I just wish that our government hadn't given up on the doctrine that was in place at the end of WWII. If they had continued that policy in the Middle East, Afganistan could have grown into a very powerful society and a strong US ally. Instead we just barely helped them battle communism and then left them with the rotted remains of their country.
I can't blame the Taliban and people like Osama for being pissed at the US. However, their means are terribly deplorable and should never be tolerated or accepted by any people or any nation.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
While it would seem logical to do such a thing, there is a fundamental flaw in your logic. You seem to hold the belief that the government has the same freedom of action as a private individual.
An individual has the right to discriminate, and profile, and do whatever he or she wishes as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. Restricting outside access to property you own is certainly not violating anyone's rights.
But the (United States) government is explicitly unable, never mind the fact that a government should not be able to do anything that is not explicitly stated in the first place, from doing the above such things as they violate the rights of individuals. These are not rights guaranteed in the constitution, granted, but they should not be abandoned quite so easily to gain so little.
It comes down to if you believe the government should be able to use the concepts of 'future crime' (You might do something in the future, so we charge you now. Think drug laws.) and 'collectivism' (You are guilty by association. Your great grandfather killed a man? It's likely you will too.) as evidence in criminal cases. I feel that going down that path could lead to hard times ahead, and should be avoided at any cost.
Remember, the (United States) government was founded on the ideas of logic and objectivity. And it's actions are constrained to operated within these arenas of thought. Your example using an individual's rights as an argument for the government's ability to do the same expands government power beyond the limits set by the constitution.
Government Rights != Individual Rights.
But hey, that's just my analysis of the situation. I could be wrong.
I bet you fly ATA mostly... actually, I KNOW you do!
While the airlines don't serve full meals nearly as often as they used to, the "snacks" they serve regularly consist of meat based products. I have on many occasions (3 times in the past 3 months) been refused anything to eat at all because the snack being served was a ham and cheese sandwich, or a sausage&egg muffin. They didn't even have peanuts for me even though I requested a vegatarian meal. If they don't serve a meal, they don't have to serve you anything... and almost all of the flights I've taken (4 hour flights mostly and at all times of the day) have consisted of snack only. I think the only time they serve a real meal is for flights leaving from noon to 12:15pm that are over 4 hours, that have a stop in a city that contains a statue greater than a certain height.
You won't eat ham or sausage on an airplane? You're a goddamned terrorist!
why did you stop typing? it was getting good there.
In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
(a) Olga Corbutt; (b) Sitting Bull; (c) Arnold Schwarzenegger; (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1979,the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
(a) Lost Norwegians; (b) Elvis; (c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women; (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
(a) John Dillinger; (b) The King of Sweden; c) The Boy Scouts; (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
(a) A pizza delivery boy; (b) Pee Wee Herman; (c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day; (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by:
(a) The Smurfs; (b) Davy Jones; (c) The Little Mermaid; (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
(a) Captain Kid; (b) Charles Lindberg; (c) Mother Teresa; (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
(a) Scooby Doo; (b) The Tooth Fairy; (c) Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid; (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
(a) Richard Simmons; (b) Grandma Moses; (c) Michael Jordan; (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
(a) Mr. Rogers; (b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems; (c) The World Wrestling Federation to promote "Mustapha the Merciless"; (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of people were killed by:
(a) Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd; (b) The Supreme Court of Florida; (c) Mr. Bean; (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
(a) Enron; (b) The Lutheran Church; (c) The NFL; (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
(a) Bonnie and Clyde; (b) Captain Kangaroo; (c) Billy Graham; (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
Hmmm . . . nope, no patterns anywhere to justify profiling.
"I got into an elevator at work and this man followed in after me... I
pushed '1' and he just stood there... I said 'Hi, where you going?' He
said, 'Phoenix.' So I pushed Phoenix. A few seconds later the doors
opened, two tumbleweeds blew in... we were in downtown Phoenix. I looked
at him and said 'You know, you're the kind of guy I want to hang around
with.' We got into his car and drove out to his shack in the desert.
Then the phone rang. He said 'You get it.' I picked it up and said
'Hello?'... the other side said 'Is this Steven Wright?'... I said 'Yes...'
The guy said 'Hi, I'm Mr. Jones, the student loan director from your bank...
It seems you have missed your last 17 payments, and the university you
attended said that they received none of the $17,000 we loaned you... we
would just like to know what happened to the money?' I said, 'Mr. Jones,
I'll give it to you straight. I gave all of the money to my friend Slick,
and with it he built a nuclear weapon... and I would appreciate it if you never
called me again."
-- Steven Wright
- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...