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Like Ogg Theora?

Q: What about Tarkin?

A: Tarkin is essentially a proof-of-concept wavelet-based codec. Its experimental nature means it will not be ready for general use for some time. VP3 is a high-quality codec that can meet today's video needs now, so Xiph.org will be focusing its efforts on Theora for the near future.

The VP3 codec has one major drawback in my opinion. It's designed to keep a constant quality without paying attention to the file size. You can do constant bitrate on it, but you can't use multiple pass encoding with variable bitrates to get that balance of quality while having strict file size control (as with xvid). Is this something that is being added to Theora, does anyone know?

I'm happy to announce at long last the release of theora alpha 3. This incorporates all the bitstream changes we wanted to make both for future encoder improvements and to permit lossless transcode of VP3 content. This is an important milestone for us on the road to a stable release.

As this is an alpha release we are again providing sources only. See the files section of downloads. This version requires libogg 1.1 or later and libvorbis 1.0.1 or later.

Also new in this release are a set of experimental tools in the win32 directory contributed by Mauricio Piacentini. This includes a transcoding tool for avi-encapsulated vp3 video which also works on linux.

We hope to not make any further incompatible bitstream changes, but this is still alpha code. Don't use this for content you're not ready to re-encode!

Thanks to everyone who contributed!

Are you building a technology that can arguably be used for Porn? If the answer is "yes" then build it! If not, don't bother.

So there's still hope that Ogg Theora may be used for something? Woo!

Right, if only Theora was finished already. They need your help! PS: Real's Helix Player will have Theora support.

There is none currently, aside from Theora, which is still in alpha. The lest evil streaming video solution at the moment is probably Quicktime/MPEG4.

Actually, we made copies of our video in Ogg Theora format available, but Creative Commons chose not to link directly to the Mix Tape page.

This one .torrent will download all three videos and a README explaining how to view them.

But don't blame Mr. Cone or Creative Commons, blame Xiph for not getting Ogg Theora finished yet.

Hmmm, you are talking about this...

Ogg Vorbis is just sound, it's Ogg Theora for video.

It is also not like Sorenson because they signed an exclusive license with Apple, which made it impossible for anyone else to use it. VP6 can be licensed by anyone.

If the new DVD formats being recommended aren't as 'open', and do not present a sizeable improvement over the current resolution of existing DVDs, I don't think that one conglomerate will be able to 'force' the market place into accepting a new tech.

I didn't think most consumers cared much about anything other than price, picture quality and sound quality. All the non-geeks I've spoken to haven't even heard of different regions and don't know which DVD region they live in, let alone care about price fixing and encrypted content that can't legally (or is it legal now? I've lost track) be viewed on free players. Which is a shame, as I'd like to see the next big format use Ogg Theora or Tarkin, but it's not going to happen, sadly...

Note that you can always do the MythTV recording using NuppelVideo, the default, but then recompress the data overnight.

In case you are wondering if this will degrade video quality (compressing it twice): I haven't tested it but I don't think it will, as long as you choose a very high quality level for the NuppelVideo.

a hardware MPEG-2 card is the best way I know of to make sure you are paid up on your MPEG-2 license fees

This is if you want to be able to burn DVDs that can play in DVD players, and you want to make sure you are legal with respect to patent license fees. If you don't care about being compatible with DVD players, you could use Ogg Theora when it's ready, and not need to worry about patent fees.

http://www.theora.org/

steveha

China licensed VP5 and VP6 for use in the EVD standard, at least according to On2 themselves. However, Ogg Theora is based on VP3 but is not perfectly compatible.

Ummm, SVG is a dialect of XML. Any SVG rendering engine has an XML Parser. It is intended to do Scalable Vector Graphics only, hence the name. If you need Video, that's what ogg Theora, MPEG4, etc are for.

If you honestly believe that JavaScript, CSS, and DOM are "hopelessly inadequate when it comes to serving up dynamic content and developing web-based applications" I suggest you read Inner-Browsing:Extending Web Browsing the Navigation Paradigm on Netscape DevEdge and/or pick up a good recent book on XHTML, CSS, DOM2, and JavaScript.

Frankly I could care less either way. I've got my eye on Thedora....

I assume you're referring to Ogg Theora, the Free video codec that's currently in alpha... I am also looking forward to this project evolving to a usable, stable level.

Well, first of all, DivX 4 originally had an open source code base. DivXNetworks had a 2 system thing going on, them working on their own code, and also supporting and open source version. They changed however, amid the release of DivX 5. This is why the XviD group was formed. Their original code base was forked from the open source DivX 4 code base. Much of that has been rewritten by now though.

Also, there is an Ogg progect, called Theora, that is an open video codec. It is based off a codec called VP3 that was orignially developed by a company called On2 They gave the VP3 code to Xiph and continue to work on their own proprietary codecs, such as VP6.

XviD and Ogg Theora (website seems to be down) are free (AIS) video compressor/decompressors that are designed to be comparable to DivX. The still-early-experimental Ogg Tarkin is a whole different kind of bird, but with the same general aim. For lossless video compression, there's Huffyuv (do a search). All these are open source, but the last review I read still had DivX as better quality per bitrate than the others.

How about Theora? . . . I know.. but maybe someday.

It's completely free and GPL'd

Not quite, you have to remember to send your payment to the MPEG LA group for a "Patent Portfolio License". There are a ton of patents in MPEG4. Here's an interesting link about a "per stream" fee MPEG LA is even considering

Ogg Theora also has patents on the VP3 video codec but the license agreement makes it clear there are no royalties due for using or repackaging VP3. One of the key reasons why it's "fringe" is because it's hasn't been released as anything other than developer builds on Linux as of yet so there are no tools other than proofs of concept for creating and playing Ogg Theora streams yet.

Read the FAQ. If you're too lazy to click:

Q: Why the name 'Theora?'

A: Like other Xiph.org Foundation codec projects such as Vorbis or Tarkin, Theora is named after a fictional character. Theora Jones was the name of Edison Carter's 'controller' on the television series Max Headroom. She was played by Amanda Pays.

From their faq:

Q: This is great. When will it all be finished so I can use it right now, like this minute? Please?

A: Ogg Theora was scheduled to go Beta (that means the bitstream is locked down, and all features are represented) in March of 2003. Obviously, that's slipped. Alpha 2 is going to be released shortly; but please remember that until Beta, there is no promise that files you encode will be supported in the final release.

Q: Can I use Theora to encode stuff right now?

A: Yes, but we strongly, strongly recommend against it, for anything but test-cases. This is not a full release in any sense of the word, it is simply a milestone, and if you start encoding things right away, there's a really good chance that it will break when you try to play it with tools we release when the final version is released.

most distro makers out of pride, prejudice or whatever refuse to make [mplayer] the default player for media files.

You mentioned two P-words: pride and prejudice. What about a third? The codecs often used with mplayer are encumbered by patents that would typically[1] be too expensive for a distributor to secure a worldwide license. There are exceptions to every rule, but Sorenson, MPEG-4, AAC, and AC3 are not such exceptions.

There are already MPlayer, the ffmpeg library, mjpegtools, bbmpeg, Ogg Vorbis and Theora, Cinelerra... I for one don't feel that I need a bone thrown to me by Real, much less a proprietary, binary-only, NDA-encumbered (no, more like encrusted) one.

Others' mileage, of course, may vary. I admit, I may be just preaching to the choir here-- but I hope that what I just named off the top of my head can show potential moviemakers some of the options that are available.

You are correct, but Ogg and Xiph.org have worked it all out:

Q: Isn't vp3 a patented technology?

A: Yes, some portions of the vp3 codec are covered by patents. However, the Xiph.org Foundation has negotiated an irrevocable free license to the vp3 codec for any purpose imaginable on behalf of the public. It is legal to use vp3 in any way you see fit (unless, of course, you're doing something illegal with it in your particular jurisdiction). You are free to download vp3, use it free of charge, implement it in a for-sale product, implement it in a free product, make changes to the source and distribute those changes, or print the source code out and wallpaper your spare room with it.
from the Ogg Theora FAQ.

haven't these guys heard of ogg and theora?

Xiph.org isn't only developing Ogg Vorbis, but also Ogg Theora. It's still in alpha stages though. The technology used in Theora is based on the vp3 codec which is covered by patents, but Xiph.org has negotiated an "irrevocable free license to the vp3 codec for any purpose imaginable on behalf of the public".

Xiph.org is also developing the experimental wavelet-based "Tarkin" codec. As I understand it, it's more written from "scratch", much like Ogg Vorbis, but is even further ahead in the future than Ogg Theora, which they are focusing on right now.

• from Real Networks:
• For Movies: http://www.xvid.org
• for Streaming : http://www.theora.org/

In short: then it should not be done.

On http://live.guadec.org/audiovideo.html I can read:

Live 150kps Real Video Stream from Burke Theatre

I'm sorry, but I feel it is extremely awkward that a project aimed at making people use a Free Software desktop promotes using non-free software.
I can understand the motivation and how it may have been well intended, but this should not continue.
At least some formats have Free Software that can interpretate them, even if they are patent encumbered in some unfortunate countries like the USA (let's hope we can avoid software patents in Europe: http://swpat.ffii.org - hurry because we have little time and we've just lost one of the battles with the JURI voting).

I know Ogg Theora isn't ready yet, but it works quite well (although maybe not yet for streaming). I've very recently made some tests and hope to publish some Ogg Theora videos soon of Stallman's speech in Portugal on the 9th of June, accompanied with the player and encoder apps (built statically) since the format is not yet finalized and as it may chage, the code used to code and decode those videos must be preserved.

Does anyone have any further information on what's happening to Ogg Tarkin? The Ogg Theora FAQ says the following:

Q: What about Tarkin?

A: Tarkin is essentially a proof-of-concept wavelet-based codec. Its experimental nature means it will not be ready for general use for some time. VP3 is a high-quality codec that can meet today's video needs now, so Xiph.org will be focusing its efforts on Theora for the near future.

Why not Ogg Theora?


I was a little disappointed with the review as they we're already reviewing an alpha status codec and could've given some indication about how well will Theora fare against it's more patent-burdened codecs.<br><br>
I for one am excited about the idea of getting my movie files on a really freely usable codec as well.

I believe that VOD is something that is being pushed down the throats of consumers weather we like it or not, being that it is heavily backed by all the major media corporations.

If a broadband mediums such as Powerlines, or fiber optics due come in to being within the next 10 years then you'll definitely see a push for more "Pay per view" content from those investing corporations. True, pay per view has only seen moderate success...which could be due to lack of extensive video catalog available and lack of true "VOD"...

Sony, Warner, Disney etc...will be able to create interactive channels with a potentially massive catalog for viewers to "stream/download" which will of course enforce DMCA/encryption on the users. Knowing this, the question one weather it will be propriety or open is a given.

However, I do believe that if more users/website designers support open source standards by simply encoding their video files using open source standards like Theora/VP3 then a need for plug-in and native support will arise for major media software (mediaplayer,real,quicktime etc) as they fight to gain more users to dominate the desktop and the website.

With the consolidation of media conglomerates (AOL Warner, FOX, Sony, Viacomm etc), the consolidation of proprietary technology mediums including hardware (see Microsoft palladium), and the rising power of DMCA the future looks bleak for the independent broadcaster and content creators.

As the same case with the state of Mp3's on linux where software companies get charged to release encoding capabilities, you can bet your bottom dollar that microsoft and others will most definitely charge for encoding into their proprietary digital video formats. This of course will further enhance the DMCA influence on what can be encoded and what can't.

With the RIAA pressing on the bill to get independent radio broadcasters pay airplay royalties all the way back to 1998. Can this be further enforced with the use of consolidated property media technology and corprate controlled media? Given the current stance of the corporates with DMCA, they will conviently reinvent the Television from a once open, free, and independent friendly internet.

Jason

Adware? I have Quicktime, and I don't remember getting any adware with it... but maybe I missed something. But yeah, an open source alternative would be really nice... go Theora! (I'm assuming that someone will work out a way to stream it after it comes out, the way Icecast does for Ogg.)

To avoid confusion, I would like to point out the VP3 codec is patented, but the company who owns the patents has released a "free for anyone for anything" license. (See the Theora FAQ for information.)

If it's going to be good for Linux users?
Yes

The question is: "Will it be good for the open-source movement and the technologies it develops?"

If you think a little about it, this could be a way for MS to kill a player (Xiph.org) that is doing it's way in the multimedia business.

In the open-source (and at the same time with Linux... cause it's where it gets the most used), we've got Ogg Vorbis, the best patent-free lossy audio format. To get the Unix market, MS has to kill it first. We can see that they've found a good way to do it. They're just forcing the market to adopt their codec as a standart so that unix users will be forced to used it too.

Then, there are theses projects, named Theora and XviD, which could become other good formats for the open-source community, but this time in the domain of video.
We can apply the same theory to this one... MS is just trying to kill them too, to gain the market that will be, again, forced to do a jump its propriatery technology...

So yes, it'll be good for *NIX users, but could kill the projects the open-source community is trying to create...

not surprised here, where is the linux based mpeg4 alternative?

Here.

if you've come up with a codec that doesn't infringe anyone's patents, why/how should they care? The problem is that to date, nobody in the OSS world has done so.

Ogg Theora is free software that you can use without needing to pay royalties. It's based on VP3, and the VP3 patent owners have given up their patent rights so Theora can be fully free. (And I hope good things will happen to them as a reward.)

Theora hasn't hit 1.0 yet; the current, alpha-quality release is the first milestone release. Plans are to release a beta in March 2003 and the final 1.0 in June 2003.

http://www.theora.org/

steveha

Your Wish Is Granted.

IF they can get the standard stabilized and code to the point where more than one person can effectively contribute to development before it's too late, at least. Very promising project, in my opinion.

Before Open Source Software became a mainstream notion (say 1990), "Open" as in "Open Standards" used to imply that a company supplied descent documentation with it's API. That's about as open as SUN's OpenLook.

MPEG is "open" in that the standard was developed by a consortium of companies and other institutions. Therefore, it is propriety, patented, copyrighted and whatever... but these rights are not owned by a single company that's reluctant to reveal the ins and outs of its "standard". MPEG is open in that it openly discussed MPEG4's features before it hit the market.

So, although MPEG indeed extorts consumers for using their stuff just like any company, a consortium is a much healthier construction viewed from other company's perspectieves. And therefore ultimately (due to competition) also to customers.

So yes. It is confusing. (And I agree with the majority of posts that only a fully open standard, like Ogg Theora will settle this matter.)

--
The good thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum

The problem with this specific approach is that it lets the people with money invariably decide what we work on. This is not inherently a bad thing, especially if everyone gets access to the new code written, but it also means that we'd have to throw out a lot of good engineering implementing features that Joe Pocketbook wants. We make software for everyone.

2. Just like with Vorbis, keep everything GPL until stable 1.0 production release is reached. Then switch to BSD license. Distribute development releases under GPL only.

Vorbis went BSD long before 1.0. The problem is that I think that's kind of a bait-and-switch; Come work on this GPL product, surprise! We're making it BSD! This was easier to do with Vorbis in particular, because the number of developers on it was so small. I don't see a benefit (development or otherwise) to playing a licensure shell game, but maybe you're seeing something I'm not?

I am by no means comparing Xiph.org to Mandrake, but I do believe that same principle applies of how people view their support by donation. Ogg Vorbis is by far the best lossy compression format available today. Can't wait for Tarkin.

I agree, but the line between 'donate to a worthy cause' and 'bail out a company' is sufficiently blurred here. By the way, you should check out Theora if you're interested in video. Due out in June of 2003.

Emmett Plant
CEO, Xiph.org Foundation

There are many patents which cover the various codecs that make up mpeg4 (no, mpeg4 is not really a standard, there are just a bunch of formats that roughly look something like each other and we call them mpeg4). MPEG4 will never be free from patents. For this reason, I suggest we start doing what we can to help xiph.org finish up with theora, which has a 1.0 release currently scheduled in June, 2003.

By "help" I mean do whatever you can. If you can code, great, if not, perhaps you can spare a few pennies?

We don't need Vorbis audio and mpeg4 video. we need Ogg Theora for both! Theora 1.0 is due out June, 2003. Patent-free BSD-licensed audio/video for everyone!

I thought the intent of his question was pretty obvious. He's noticed that readily-available media offerings aren't generally high-quality, but that there is a fair amount of good stuff floating around that's relatively freely available, and though he isn't sure what's involved yet, he'd like to put his metaphorical money where his proverbial mouth is and try to contribute to this pool of good watchable material.

In other words, "While there seem to be fewer and fewer worthwhile shows in the mainstream media (such as the unnamed show that has been canceled, and I think most slashdotters can guess what the likely quality of its replacement show will be) there seems to be a growing pool of good free material online, and I'd like to contribute. Has anyone here been involved in this? What do I need to know to participate?"

Yes, it IS a very general question, which contains a lot of smaller questions within it, but this is Slashdot, not rec.arts.video.online.bandwidth-questions or some similarly specific tech support forum. I think what the poster was hoping for is some discussion of all of the aspects so that he'll be able to formulate more specific questions and take them to more focussed forums. Besides - general or not, someone interested in improving the quality of available entertainment ought to be encouraged regardless of how much they already know about the subject, not told to go away until they already know most of what they need to do...

(I didn't at all get any sense that he wanted to continue the cancelled show, just that the cancelling of what he considered to be a good show was an indicator of the decline of "mainstream media" quality, which I think most of us can sympathise with.)

So, yes, all of the above, and more. Seems a perfectly valid and potentially informative topic for discussion here. A few of us occasionally read the more general "ask slashdot" discussions for general education ourselves...

So...to contribute what little I can:

Firstly, decent writing and acting (even for animation - hey, somebody has to do the voices) is the key to watchable material. This is probably already obvious to the person asking the question (as well as everyone else here) but it should be said.

As to the "internet distribution" portion of the question, one might contact the The Internet Archive and the folks at Creative Commons about hosting and licensing, if one's willing to release the material freely.

At this point I'll also throw in a nod to one of my "pet causes" - Ogg Theora which, if they get a bit more visible on the development of it (likely to happen in March, when the format freeze is supposedly scheduled, though the second Alpha release is due Real Soon Now. At the moment, though, development appears to be a "Monty Only" project that shows up as infrequent "chunks" of updates in CVS when official releases come out. At least news is starting to show up on the mailing list...) will supply a very nice no-license-hassle format for distribution.

Transforming the recordings to a wide variety of internet-ready formats can be done with MPlayer/MEncoder in combination with a few other tools (ffmpeg, mjpegtools, the aforementioned Ogg Theora), not to mention using mjpegtools' encoders to convert video dumped from MPlayer to VCD or SVCD format for viewing on standalone players.

Someone else will have to comment on technical issues of camera and recording media types most suitable for generating internet-ready material. In MY opinion, if one handles the rest of the matter well, it's probably possible to produce perfectly adequate "good amateur quality" internet videos with ordinary off-the-shelf video cameras and a halfway-decent digitizing card. Last time I attempted video capture it was from a VHS tape, with a BT878-based card and "streamer" from Xawtv to store as a relatively high quality mjpeg/pcm quicktime file [to allow > 2GB files] then dumped to mjpegtools to generate SVCDs.

Any other topics in this broad discussion I've missed?...

Tarkin is years away. Try theora

If you can wait a little bit Xiph recon that Ogg Theora will be ready by June 2003.
Beta stuff is already out, but I dont think you want to go into the business of beta testing.

well, I guess this will add a few more entries to the mpeg-4 patentlist.

Let's just hope some day theora will be at least as good.

And that the downloadable archives for those of us (ARGH!) who forgot and missed the live telecast are only being offered for "QuickTime 5"...

(Insert obligatory bitter complaints about the one popular video codec that can't be played outside of Mac and Windows here...)

I wonder if they could be talked into either streaming or archiving in Ogg Theora format starting next year (judging by the good, if incomplete, quality of the existing 1st alpha release, it ought to be ready in plenty of time...)

P.S. Anybody here watch the awards? Did they get a better camera operator and sound technician this year? (Last year, the camera operator stubbornly REFUSED to point the camera at interesting things happening, no matter how relevant. I say REFUSED because I seem to recall that at one point one of the speakers was actually GIVING a slideshow [not to be confused with the semi-random slideshow they are said to have running throughout], and I would have sworn I saw the camera START to swing towards the slides being presented...then stubbornly swing back and stare at the presenter pointing at the slides...also half of the wedding opera was essentially inaudible due to microphone problems...)

Ogg Theora

Ogg Theora is our new Ogg/VP3 integration project partnership witn On2 Technologies. See the Theora.org website for more information.

Xiph.org is coming up with a video codec entirely on their own called Ogg Tarkin, and it will have been made entirely from scratch.