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*cough*

http://www.toyota.com/landcruiser/index.html?s_van =GM_TN_LANDCRUISER_INDEX
http://www.toyota.com/highlander/index.html?s_van= GM_TN_HIGHLANDER_INDEX

...it was apparently *too good*. Demand real high, good sales, but they stopped selling them. gee, wonder why??
 
  ~300 cars sold it's ending year with an average of 208 per year over the RAV4EV's lifetime does not scream "real high" demand, or "good sales" to me. Mod me down if you like, but let's be realistic here, with sales like that *NO* car company can afford to stay in business. Until people actually *BUY* the cars, EV's will remain a pipe dream.

Both Toyota and Honda have made fully-functional fuel cell cars. They said 5 years ago they might have a limited production model in 10 years.

http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology /fuelcell_hybrid.html

I wouldn't be shocked if others have made similiar prototypes.

I share your doubts, but must point out that current hybrid cars already use regenerative braking. The efficiency is only something like 30% (losses to transmit through the CVT, generate, store, spin the motor again), but it's still a little bit of return. Since the motor is already designed to act as a generator, it should be little extra investment to program the transmission to load the motor before mechanically engaging the brakes.

Despite all the rumors about Google and how it will topple Microsoft,

Just like Toyota won't compete in the Chevy Aveo price range

My car is front wheel drive and it has two engines. http://www.toyota.com/prius/ Course, one is electric...but still, it disproves that point.

Toyota has designed the battery pack of the Prius to be totally recyclable. Also the battery pack is covered under warrenty for 8 years 100,000 miles

Well, the Civic isn't comparable to the Prius either, unless you are talking about pre-2004 Prius. The Civic is a compact car; the 2004 and later Prius is mid-sized. A closer comparison to the Prius (in terms of size) is the Accord hybrid, but that car is engineered more for higher performance, so it still isn't comparing the two systems apples-to-apples. I think the most appropriate comparison would be between the Accord hybrid and the 2007 Camry hybrid (192 HP and 43 MPG).

The Prius's system might actually be theoretically less efficient than the Honda's since it uses a generator as the fulcrum of a torque split device - this means that the generator always has to be generating power for the car to be pushed by the gas engine - this entails doing an additional energy conversion step all of the time.

That's at least a little misleading. There are not one, but two motor/generators in the Prius, and yes, at least one will be generating when the engine is revving. But as I understand it, the result of this is that the IC engine has more load, which allows for greater efficiency. It is a bit counter-intuitive, but this efficiency increase in the ICE is supposed to offset the electro-mechanical conversion inefficiency of the generator.

1) The brake pads will wear less because of regenerative braking

Well, let us see what brake pads for a prius cost:
brake pads for a prius Oh. $28.79


2) NO transmission repair costs, it uses constant mesh planetary gears instead

I have Toyotas out in the back pasture that have been retired at 264000 miles due to rust. I have never seen a transmission failure/problem in a Toyota car

3) minimized eng wear because the electric motor handles high torque demands

Motor ( a 4AFE ) was still running when car was retired due to rust. Only weak spot on these cars is deposits on the valve stems which make the valves stick open. I just pull the heads, beadblast the valves and heads, have the seats cut and the valves ground, reassemble, total cost in parts is $80 to cut the seats and the valves, about $30 for head gasket and sundries.

4) minimized eng wear because the engine is spun up BEFORE any cylinder ignition

See Above!

5) minimized eng wear because the engine fires 2 cyl and then the other 2 on start

Huh?

6) The engine was designed lighter because of the shared load so bearing wear is reduced

This is just not an issue if you keep the oil changed. The engine will outlast the rest of the car.

7) minimized eng and exhaust system wear because of first 5 minute warmup cycle

Exhaust wear will be worse, because of the multiple heating and cooling cycle. An exhaust system kept hot 100% of the time will last longest because the most destructive corrosion does not occur at elevated temperature.

To sum up: The prius will not save you money on repair just because it is a hybrid. Anyone who can assemble a PC can change the brake pads by following the instructions in the Toyota service manual which is available by calling Toyota MDC

I guess this is pretty off topic but today I was shopping around online looking at new cars and I was using Firefox 1.0.7 at Toyota's website and it just sucks. I'm not sure if it's the website or the combination of Firefox and linux, but it seems like it must be the website because I generally don't have a problem elsewhere. Does anybody know what the problem is with the website. Obviously, they use a lot of flash elements and that seems to be part of the problem. But I don't even know what to say to the Toyota people to encourage them to fix their website.

For a one-off conversion to a decade-old Jeep Cherokee, it would take lots of unique parts and experienced labor. You are probably looking at tens of thousands of dollars and when you are done it will still look like an old Jeep.

If you are fixated on going hybrid with an SUV, why not buy a brand new hybrid Highlander or Lexus? You'll spend as much and get the same marginal gas mileage increase, but you'll also get that new-car smell.

Also from the toyota website...

Is there a recycling plan in place for nickel-metal hydride batteries?
Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers are paid a $200 "bounty" for each battery.

If you haven't noticed, that un-popular country that america is using as a garbage dump is china (with all that "wonderful" toxic used computer equipment that americans seem to be fond of using).

And the worse is that they don't make station-wagons anymore...

See the Subaru Legacy and Impreza and the Toyota Matrix.

"I would be glad to get rid of my Chevy Suburban - just as soon as someone can provide a vehicle capable of carrying the 6 children and 2 adults that I need to carry and that can navigate the 2 miles of gravel from my house to the hardtop after a good rain or snow!"

Have a look at the Toyota Sequoia. Great vehicle, and the A/C works superb!

I've seen quite a few shiny new Prius taxis here in Vancouver with Yellow Cabs. I had a quick chat to one of the drivers and he said he didn't really care about the environment, it's that hybrids cost less to run when petrol gets expensive.

Since the dawn of the Automobile Revolution, automobile marques have been proactive in their approach to appeal to certain segments of society. By targeting these groups, automakers would find a much higher loyalty rate in an increasingly unloyal industry. Even today this tradition continues, with companies such as Toyota appealing to the youth market with its Scion brand, BMW and Mercedes appealing to the affluent market, Buick appealing to the understated senior market, and Subaru and Volvo appealing to the aging hippy market. One demographic spoken for by a large multinational automaker that often raises a bit of controversy, however, is the gay and lesbian market. It is within these confines that Honda finds its must staunch loyalists.

The connection stems much further than their not-so-subtle "H" logo. Since the inception of Honda by founder Kilimanjaro Honda in Tokyo, Japan in 1948, Honda has had a long line of successful industry firsts. Honda's first products imported to the United States were motorcycles capable of producing almost twice as much horsepower as their American brethren. Sold out of a small shop in San Francisco, their demographic was clear. From day one, Honda coined the term "Crotch Rocket" to target the gay and lesbian community. It wasn't long before Honda had made its first inroads in gaining market share in the vital west coast community.

While commercially successful, Honda didn't wish to fight a one-front war against Christians. In 1962, Honda started producing the HX100, their first entry into the area of gas powered lawn mowers. This allowed residents to show off their sexual preference to neighbors when not commuting. The new market, however, was something Honda was not experienced in, and proved to be initially unsuccessful. Honda faced several lawsuits alleging their lawnmowers oxidized almost instantly when mowing over damp grass.

It wasn't before long that founder Honda realized that the next battle would have to be fought in the ever-expanding industry of automobiles. In 1972, Honda began offering the United States its first car, the Honda Civic. While industry brass wanted to call it the "Civic Lesson," for the lesson it was trying to teach regarding the homosexual agenda, "Lesson" was eventually dropped from the title before release. Honda's experience in the lawn equipment market proved beneficial in their foray into automobiles, as the first generation of Civic Lessons were powered by their 49cc lawnmower engines producing a then-respectable 20 horsepower.

The response from the homosexual community was very positive, and sales of Civic Lessons matched other popular rivals in the west coast market from Toyota and AMC. Initial figures had pinned sales at achieving a 53% homosexual rate of buyers of Civic Lessons, a figure that has yet to be beat. The Civic Lesson proved to be a remarkable car for the homosexual market, as these families did not have any children and thus did not need room for a back seat. Honda foresaw new potential, however, with gay and lesbian

There's no real evidence that hybrids are more efficient than a similar gas powered car would be

A Prius, or a hybrid Accord, or a hybrid Odyssey, isn't intended to be the most fuel efficient vehicle possible - it is intended to be the most fuel efficient for that particular size and category of car. Of course you can buy a largely unusable micro-car and get close to the same fuel economy, but that's sort of missing the point.

Regarding evidence - this isn't some mysterious dark science, and it's remarkably easy to measure the fuel efficiency of a vehicle. The Accord hybrid isn't the most fuel efficient car on the planet, but you get the power and comfort of a high-power car with the fuel efficiency of a small 4-cylinder. Pretty much a win/win.

http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/modelselector/mpg.h tml

What are you, marketing department for one of the big oil companies? Hybrids aren't perfect but you're talking out of your *arse*.

The batteries used in hybrids last as long as the vehicle, 150,000 - 200,000 miles at least and are guaranteed for at least 8 years. The batteries are NiMH, not lead acid or Nicad.

e.g.
http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_ release.html?id=20040623

Although not pure electric, the Toyota Volta was the first hybrid supercar. 408 horsepower out of a 3.3 liter V6 Synergy Drive.

More than 400 miles on a 13.7 gallon tank isn't bad for a car that does 0-60 in 4 seconds.

http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/future/volta.html

I'd love to see this new engine from Welsh Engineering in a Lotus, although I'd never be able to afford one, it'd be an incredible car.

Don't forget that the option package that includes the DVD nav and Bluetooth phone capabilities is an additional $5065.

No, they said it was a Prius, not a Matrix.

It's interesting to look at the actual numbers. The Prius is shorter lengthwise and heightwise then both the Corolla and Camry, but the wheelbase is almost that of the Camry (106" to 107", with the Corolla at 102"). The luggage capacity of the Prius (16.2 ft^3) is much closer to a Camry (16.7) than a Corolla (13.6). Curb weight and passenger volume for the Prius are about halfway between the Corolla and Camry. Interior dimensions are all over the place - the Prius has less headroom than the Corolla (and Camry), but more legroom than either. Overall - I'll agree with you that the Prius isn't quite as big as a Camry, but it's definitely larger than a Corolla.

It's interesting to look at the actual numbers. The Prius is shorter lengthwise and heightwise then both the Corolla and Camry, but the wheelbase is almost that of the Camry (106" to 107", with the Corolla at 102"). The luggage capacity of the Prius (16.2 ft^3) is much closer to a Camry (16.7) than a Corolla (13.6). Curb weight and passenger volume for the Prius are about halfway between the Corolla and Camry. Interior dimensions are all over the place - the Prius has less headroom than the Corolla (and Camry), but more legroom than either. Overall - I'll agree with you that the Prius isn't quite as big as a Camry, but it's definitely larger than a Corolla.

It's interesting to look at the actual numbers. The Prius is shorter lengthwise and heightwise then both the Corolla and Camry, but the wheelbase is almost that of the Camry (106" to 107", with the Corolla at 102"). The luggage capacity of the Prius (16.2 ft^3) is much closer to a Camry (16.7) than a Corolla (13.6). Curb weight and passenger volume for the Prius are about halfway between the Corolla and Camry. Interior dimensions are all over the place - the Prius has less headroom than the Corolla (and Camry), but more legroom than either. Overall - I'll agree with you that the Prius isn't quite as big as a Camry, but it's definitely larger than a Corolla.

Sooner or later someone from out of town is going to drive through your area in a Prius. Even if the vehicles aren't sold there, it's a good idea for the fire department to familiarize themselves with the specifics of a hybrid power systems, and associated rescue procedures. This especially a good idea, as we'll be seeing more of this technology in the future.

Toyota makes publicly available, a guide detailing the operation and technical data of their hybrid power system:
http://www.toyota.com/web/vehicles/prius/safety/pr ius_erg_1.pdf,
as well as another guide specifically on emergency procedures: http://www.toyota.com/web/vehicles/prius/safety/pr ius_erg_2.pdf

Sooner or later someone from out of town is going to drive through your area in a Prius. Even if the vehicles aren't sold there, it's a good idea for the fire department to familiarize themselves with the specifics of a hybrid power systems, and associated rescue procedures. This especially a good idea, as we'll be seeing more of this technology in the future.

Toyota makes publicly available, a guide detailing the operation and technical data of their hybrid power system:
http://www.toyota.com/web/vehicles/prius/safety/pr ius_erg_1.pdf,
as well as another guide specifically on emergency procedures: http://www.toyota.com/web/vehicles/prius/safety/pr ius_erg_2.pdf

• As bulbs burn out, we've replaced them with fluorescents. These days there are even 3-way fluorescent bulbs and fluorescent exterior flood lights (which coupled with a motion sensor are even better at saving energy).
• When it was time for a new clothes washer, we bought the most energy-efficient one we could, a front loading model. They use less water, get clothes cleaner, put less wear on the clothes in the process, and leave clothes dryer, leaving less work for the clothes dryer (or the sun in summer).
• When it was time for a new water heater, we spent the extra and got a tankless model with electronic ignition so there's no pilot light and not 30+ gallons of water being kept hot whether any is being used or not.
• I no longer leave my computer on over night. Takes longer to get started in the morning, but boot time is now go pour myself some coffee time :-)
• We've had a programmable thermostat for the furnace for years. Turns down when you leave for work (before I started working at home), turns up when you get back, with different schedules for weekends versus weekdays. Not only do you use less energy, but the house can be warming up when you wake up in the morning.

• We've had a Toyota Prius since 2001. Simply put, it's the best car my wife or I have ever owned. Great mileage, low emissions, low maintenance, and the newer model is even better. Plus there's a $2000 federal tax break.
• Trip-linking. Plan your errands so you can do a number of short, connected trips instead of heading out every time you need something. Or better, figure out how you can skip the trip altogether :-)
• Rather than buy an air conditioner for the couple of months a year we'd need one, I installed a ceiling fan in our bedroom.
• We have a couple of cloth bags we use for shopping instead of getting new plastic or paper ones every time we go.
• I'm in the process of replacing the old single-pane windows with dual-pane. This is more expensive and/or difficult than some people can do, but Marvin makes the Tilt-Pac for replacing just the window but leaving the existing frame. They're cheaper than a whole new window, and simple enough to install that people with some home improvement experience can do it themselves.
• I'm also in the process of adding insulation to our house, which was built with exactly none to start with. The attic was easy enough to add insulation to, but insulating existing walls is a bit harder. Blown in loose insulation tends to settle over time, and doesn't fill in small gaps very well. I'm looking at alternatives such as soy-based spray foam insulation.
• I'm in the process of designing, permitting, and hopefully in a couple of months, building a small addition to our house (going from about 1000 sq. ft. to about 1300 sq. ft.). The design incorporates as many green building techniques as possible, including more insulation than required by code, south-facing windows for solar heating in winter, large roof overhang to avoid solar heating in summer, natural lighting via well-placed windows, and a large south-facing roof for the future addition of solar panels. That's in addition to stuff like low/no-VOC paints and bamboo flooring which don't necessarily use less energy, but are better for the environment.

...in addition to references about, e.g., efficient lighting? But I'm talking about production. Just as the article summary was.

Many energy savings can be both significant and easy: isolate your home, use energy efficient lighting, replace that stupid SUV with a hybrid car, drive with 2 people from A to B instead of on your own, use public transport where possible, use natural gas instead of electricity for cooking and heating, use a water-saving (=heat-saving) shower head, etc. etc. All measures that don't affect your lifestyle much, but your energy consumption a lot.

I already do all these things. And what's with the SUV argument? That's just as stupid as the stupidity you're accusing my argument of. What about a hybrid SUV? Or does it only qualify as a "hybrid" if it looks like a complete utter pile of shit on wheels?

It should be further crushed by the soon-to-be-produced Toyota Volta. 30mpg and 0-60 in 4 seconds. Top speed is limited to 155, but it'll be interesting to see how much further it can go.

cmholm says:

Not like the sort of X vs. Y choice they had when comparing Fords and Toyotas.

And at the present time even the nationality of any given car produced by either of those companies is unclear - Ford has stakes in several other Japanese and European car companies. Toyota, according to this blurb on their website, has 8 assembly plants in the US. As Warren Brown, automotive journalist for The Washington Post says, there's no such thing as a "domestic" or "foreign" car manufacturer in the US these days.

Lexus hybrid SUV

Toyota hybrid SUV

Hybrid trucks and SUVs from other manufactures

Toyota released a similar vehicle called PM at the Tokyo Auto show while back. I think Toyota is interested in these Personal Vehicles because in emerging markets like China or India, where population is very dense and poor, even small compact cars will be too large and too expensive. And considering how well the small SMART vehicles have done in Europe, I think they believe there is a market for a nimble vehicle sized between a motorcycle and a normal car. I would love to see them try!

I think the point the parent poster was making was that given two 'similarly' sized motors, electrics' have more torque.

Look at the specs for the Prius:

Gas Engine:
76 hp @ 5000 rpm
82 ft-lb @ 4200 rpm

Electric Motor:
67 hp @ 1200-1540 rpm
295 ft-lb @ 0-1200 rpm

Both generate comperable max horsepower (albeit at different speeds), but the electric motor has "torque coming out the ass", and does so even at 0 rpm.

Sorry, but I disagree. The adverts I've seen for environmentally-friendly vehicles don't just emphasise their fuel consumption, they also stress how recyclable the cars are.

Making anything takes time, resources and energy, and something like a car, however green it is, is going to require a fair amount of all three in its manufacture. The start of a car's life, when it's built, isn't going to be where the best non-fuel-related savings are going to be made: even the most efficient build process wouldn't be much improvement over the efficiency that car manufacturers already display.

The biggest savings are to be made at the other end, at the end of a car's usefulness, when it can be either scraped (as in the case with most cars nowadays) or recycled (as will be the case with newer, greener cars when they are retired).

But, let's face it, only a small percentage of car buyers think about anything before or beyond their use of their vehicle. To most people, a car's initial cost, fuel efficiency, maintenance and resale value are the only things that matter. Given that, it's natural that fuel efficiency becomes the environmental selling point, because it's about the money in your pocket now, which is a concept that most people grasp straight away.

Bottom line: people are looking at those areas that you mention, and they have done something about it but you don't sell a Toyota Prius over a Hummer on the basis of how easy it will be to junk in 10, 15 or 20 years' time.

Don't just take my word for it -- I want you to see how cool the new one looks. If you went to a dealer that was selling the original for $28K, they must have had a HUGE markup on the addendum sticker (the thin strip next to the real sticker, where they add b.s. dealer installed stuff, like undercoating, to jack up the price). As you can see, the MSRP for the new one is $21,415.

Also, a Prius is an ego vehicle too, at least in California. They're popular among actresses and such who want to show off how "green" they are.

Let's be honest here, Not everyone can drive a primus around.

In fact, no one can, because it doesn't exist. Maybe you were thinking of the Prius?

It seems almost inevitable that Japanese is going to have a Felica after Toyota's Celica and Mitsubishi's Delica :) Where's Google when you need a Gelica (Girly Car)?

The article mentioned "i-mode FeliCa will make your wallet more slim. It can be your cash, credit card, membership ID, and even your house key." Given that many people have mobile phones stolen/lost, or worse, broken in the most unexpected moment, is relying too heavily on one device too much a risk?

I think it's equally annoying to have your cash stolen, house broken into, and not being able to enter your house (and you can't call for help without a mobile phone or cash for payphone!)

--
Play iCLOD Virtual City Explorer [iclod.com] and win Half-Life 2

Automatics shift differently from manuals. They don't use a clutch; the transmission is always engaged. They use a torque converter instead. So no, automatics don't necessarily need a neutral state. (Of course, all cars do AFAIK.)

To the grandparent, Priuses (Prii?) can be put into neutral. It's pretty apparent from the stick alone. Although it does take a second to shift to neutral (my guess is so you can keep moving while shifting from D to B; some have suggested it's for safety).

Not all SUVs are big/bad and evil. Sometimes you just have to look for them. You might be surprised.

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Toyota says the Prius gets: 60mpg city
Ford reports that the Escape hybrid will get 35-40 mpg city. That's only a little bit better than a regular non-hybrid sedan. And being an SUV it will still take up tons of space on the road and be difficult for other drivers to see around. Forgive my cynicism if I don't go running out to buy one.

I mean c'mon, people don't have printer envy these days, and joysticks and digital cameras are common place.

You don't have printer envy for this or this? That first one costs more than my car!!!

but Toyota makes trucks!

Also, since the peak horsepower of a car is rarely needed except in rapid acceleration, I would think that the key to reducing engine size, and thus, improving efficiency would be to use a small engine with some kind of storage system. Since batteries are bad for the environment, maybe two flywheels rotating in opposite directions (to cancel out precession) under the floor can be used, along with an electric motor/generator to transfer power to/from them. Extra power generated by the engines, as well as from braking, can be used to accelerate the flywheels.

And that's supposed to be especially economical? What kind of cars do you Americans drive?!

Ummmm, gasoline powered cars for the most part, and it's practicly impossible buying a new car with anything smaller then a 1.5l. Even Honda's new civic is a 1.7l. Some states can't sell TDI cars, only a handful IIRC.

Now, TDI would be nice, but let's look at the numbers.

A Volkswagon Bettle GL 5 speed runs $17,630 MSRP according to the website. Toyota has the Echo and Corolla at $10,870 and $14,195 respectivly, a price diffrence of $6760 and $3435.

Corolla and Echo get about the same MPG, about 40 or so, you get 50 or so. Driving 300 miles a week for 52 weeks = 15600 miles. At 50mpg that would be 312 gallons of fuel, where 40mpg would be 390 gallons of fuel, a savings of 78gals a year using my numbers.

At present fuel for me costs about $2.00/gal. I would save $156 yearly on the TDI Bettle. It would take me 43 years to see a cost savings in the echo, 22 years in the Corolla. This is assuming I pay sticker price for a base model.

I'm not saying a TDI wouldn't be cool, it indeed would be. And 50mpg would be pretty cool too, but I have to look at the bigger picture here. The amount of money I save isn't enough to justify the purchace, and i'm a cheep bastard. I know many people, friends and family alike that drive SUVs or Trucks that get 12-15mpg. This is the 5+l engine class and is generally accepted as being piss poor.

Between 30-40mpg is considered to good to great, and it is for gas powered cars with 4cyl sub 2.2l engines. 40-50mpg is considered to be excelent but none too common in gas powered cars. 20-30 is probally about average IMHO, esp among midsized cars, esp those with v6 engines in the 2.5l range.

And? Toyota has billions of dollars invested in its internal combusion line of vehicles. Did that stop them from developing the Prius. Apple had billions invested in the 680x0 line. Did that stop them from moving to PowerPC? You go where the market takes you or you get left behind.

As I said earlier in this thread, the oil-based gasoline market will not disappear overnight. These investments will still make money. The point is that "big oil" is in the business of selling fuel for cars to end consumers. In a competitive marketplace, oil companies will jump on whatever technology makes that task easier. Oil extraction is the easiest now. If that changes, watch these comapnies follow suit rather quickly.

Yeah. Try here, and get the scoop from the horses mouth.

Besides, the pictures at hsw are slashdotted, so I didn't get to see an image until I googled. I think they look neat. If someone were willing to ride on a motorcycle, I don't see why one of these would be worse... actually, a bit safer and free from the typical motorcycle problems (like rain).

How Stuff has been slashdotted. Here's another page to view it from.