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New York Taxis Will Go Hybrid
Jason Siegel writes "The New York Taxi and Limousine Commission (TLC) has approved the Clean Air Taxicabs Pilot Program Act, paving way for a hybrid car to be approved for NY taxi service by this fall. Soon, a large portion of New York's yellow cars will also be "green." According to the Coalition Advocating for Smart Transportation (CAST) poll, seven out of ten of the state's citizens support a switch to hybrids." New York might also reduce car pollution by loosening the rules for running a taxi, in order to reduce the need for private cars.
But do they really think that one city will change anything? I think this is a step in the right direction if everybody starts using more efficient/ less waste cars, but why make such a big deal over the first step?
$ cd/home/fridge
$ ls | grep "coke"
Now if they can only clean out the inside of the cars too.
kensavage knows more than god
Part of the fun of riding in taxis is being able to ride in a Police Interceptor. Nothing like going 0-60 in 5s while slipping into some godawful tight opening on the left lane on Fifth Avenue.
But this should be good. Hybrid vehicles really shine in urban congested traffic anyways (lots of stops and crawls)
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
Most New York taxis were driven by mutants, and now the cars will match.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
I've seen quite a few shiny new Prius taxis here in Vancouver with Yellow Cabs. I had a quick chat to one of the drivers and he said he didn't really care about the environment, it's that hybrids cost less to run when petrol gets expensive.
Great so it's good to know the taxi will run cleaner as the cab drivers misinterprets "34th and Lexington" for "Take me to Staten Island, and let's go through Queens!"
The poll cited New York City residents only. Headline says NY state.
This story is really only about one city. Too bad, too. The effect would be much more drastic on a state level. I wouldn't mind seeing green taxis in Albany or Rochester, either.
10 Bits= $.25
100 Bits= $.50
110 Bits= $.75
1000 Bits= 1 byte
What chance then that other drivers-for-hire -- such as slashdot editor roblimo -- may switch to hybrid vehicles?
If they wanted to have cabs be better for the environment, they could start with having the drivers ware deodorant. Of course now I am excited about the smaller hybrids, that means the urine has smaller area to collect.
I found this to be particularly amusing
The actual story about NYC hybrid taxis is in an Austin, TX paper.
NYC could encourage this conversion to hybrids, which get better mileage, by offering rebates on other taxes on the hybrids, making them up by increasing them on the nonhybrids in taxi fleets. Maintaining the total tax collected, but distributed to favor the hybrids. Including the gas savings (50%) on gas, which is about $2.60:gallon in NYC these days (including other taxes), such a move could convert most of the 13K cabs clogging the streets with filth. Once a critical mass was achieved, including garage mechanics with mostly hybrid skills, the city could drop the regime.
I'll be suggesting this approach to the NYC City Council "Technology" committee that I advise. It would help for New Yorkers (and others) to send constructive comments supporting this move to the committee Chair, Councilmember Brewer. Politicians, especially in the City, love to get public support for specific initiatives, especially when the ball is already rolling like it is with the TLC.
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They still have a cabbie terminal? . .
If you pay your taxes you support terrorism!
1) Taxi Meddalions (the license to operate a taxi) can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think I remember reading that one sold a few years ago for over $350,000.
2) The people driving the taxis, they don't look like the wealthy type.
They should deregulate all taxis. Maybe prices would fall if there was free competition. I know, on days I am short on money, I would like to slap a taxi sign on my car and drive down to the airport. A couple hours later, I would have enough money to go back to the bar.
And I love the idea of green friendly cars. I think it is a step in the right direction. But what would be better than legislation is a green friendly car that gets 60+ mpg and has a sticker price of around $9,000. They would sell like hotcakes (which I think the Geo did for a while).
Will we get a cheap green car? I think we will, but probably not from Ford, GM, or Chrysler. I bet it will come from a hyundi or some asian car. The most attractive thing about a green friendly car is the MPG it gets, which appeals to people who don't want to get raped at the gas pumps. Unfortunatly, those people are not the ones buying $50,000 SUV's, they are the ones in economy sized cars.
Lower the price, and everyone will be buying them.
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
A lot of other cities have public transportation running on propane, etc. Many international cities have seen a lot of cut back in pollution just by switching the public transportation to a more environment friendly energy source.
What does your Credit Report look like?
The reason NYC cabs suck so much is that there is an absentee landlord system for the licenses. Any city with this system has terrible cabs. The cab driver has to pay an exhorbitant rate to rent the cab or licence from the owner.
The city should issue a cab license to anyone who meet the standards and pays the fee. Let the free market take care of the rest.
Who is going to be paying to replace all of these taxis? The companies who own the taxis and medallions? I've heard that taxi cars are actually replaced pretty often (about every 3 years I think) but will companies risk it? Also, the fact that the 10 inch loss in leg room is such a big deal just shows that we need to lose weight.
For those of you who don't live in New York City, you may be interested to know that it can cost upwards of $750,000 to obtain a licence/emblem to operate a yellow-cab. The licenses are actually physical emblems which are welded to the hood of the cab, and if you don't have one of those emblems, you can't paint your cab yellow without it getting impounded. As I understand it, the emblems are minted in a manner similar to how a coin or a police badge is minted.
Anyhow, the city has put a cap on the number of cabs which can operate in Manhattan (something like 200,000 cabs, I think), in part just by not minting and selling any new emblems. The law of supply-and-demand has, naturally, driven the cost of licenses up. Interestingly, a cab emblem is considered a piece of real-estate, as I understand, and can be placed in a will. Furthermore, they're considered suitable collateral for taking out a mortgage or loan similar to a home-equity loan. As I understand it, a motivated cabbie can earn a couple hundred thousand dollars a year. And, as you would expect in such a situation, there have formed many cab-companies which try to gobble up all the emblems that they can and hire imigrant drivers who earn a fraction of the profit they make, the rest going to the owners of the cab companies.
Naturally, there are other limosine and cab services which operate in the city. But they don't get to paint their cars yellow.
Anyhow, the moral of the story is that this is a huge decision, involving what I suspect is a billion dollar industry. I don't know exactly how big the new york yellow-cab industry is, but it's real big. And there's lots of money involved in this decision.
That could very well be true, but thats hardly the only issue at play here.
Saving money on gasoline consumption, reducing our consumption of oil overall (We're gonna run out, sooner or later!), and reducing our pollution are all obviously good things with immediate benefits.
I'm not with the far-left environmentalist movement, but I do believe that our wasteful use of energy is something we need to deal with culturally.
I don't think the media is liberal. Its just a perception that people have because the news reporting doesn't always the viewer's own political views. The fact that both the left and right criticize the media for being biased would confirm this, at least anecdoctally.
By the way, if it wasn't for the green movement, pollution would be a much BIGGER problem than it is today. Thanks to many of the reforms implemented, we have stopped companies from totally wasting our rivers with dangerous contaminants, for example. There is a concept called "dont shit where you eat". I think that applies well here. The environment is certianly not the same way it was before we started becoming a heavily industrialized world. Something we should consider before just having knee-jerk reactions calling for more consumption.
How is he a troll?! He is presenting another side of the argument and he did so in a kind manner. Apparently that isn't allowed here.
Just because you disagree doesn't mean it's a troll.
Because, as you point out, NYC is the home of some extremely shortsighted capitalists who would otherwise ruin our city. So we've invented some ways to rein them in. Now, I don't know what in what godforsaken hole you make your burrow home. But come to NYC some time, and we'll show you how free you truly are, when the people have a government keeping the Robber Barons off your back.
To counter your deluded post directly: since they could save at least 50% on gas, why haven't the taxi fleet owners already upgraded, as they buy new vehicles? Are they all "Che Guevara fans"?
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As a Christian I'd just like to let you know we are not all like that whackjob. There are many of us who believe that God wants us to take care of His Creation, not destroy it for selfish ends. I worship God, not Mammon.
One of my favorite quotes is "Don't tell me you are a Christian, let me see that you are a Christian."
Why would I want to pay an average of 15-20 bucks every time I go out somewhere just because the taxi runs cleaner?
Woohoo! It's awesome to see a ham radio article on Slashdot. Cheers for posting.
They haven't already upgraded because they don't buy
"new" vehicles, they buy retired police cars with 250K (or whatever) miles on them already. In other words, they're not going to spend (at least) $20K extra per car just to save gas, unless the government forces them to.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
i'm not really sure why this is relevant. i'm not sure who wouldn't want hybrid cars -- the limiting factor isnt the amount of people who want them, its the money itll take to switch over to them. a more relevant statistic would be how many people who own taxis and taxi services that would like to switch...
Now, how much will this cost the taxpayers of New York? Not to be a troll, but regardless of the need to be environmentally green it also helps to be monetarily green.
~Ilyanep
To get message, take amount of carrier pigeons at each stage mod 2. Then decode binary.
even if global warming is a myth, concocted by a conspiracy between environmentalists, those dastardly liberals, and the shadowy organization of Jews controlling the media, is it still such a bad thing to try to reduce pollution from cars?
Let's think about this for a minute: If we do nothing and the environmentalists turn out to be right, we're screwed. On the other hand, if we go ahead and reduce our pollution output and it turns out global warming doesn't exist, then we've merely wasted* money. I, for one, would rather be poor than dead.
*let alone the fact that it wouldn't even be a waste then -- reducing pollution via reducing fossil fuel use would have other benefits, such as allowing people with asthma to be able to breathe in the cities (and possibly stopping kids from contracting it in the first place), stopping acid rain, reducing dependence on foreign oil, etc.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
You are off by a bit there .. As of 2004 emblems were selling for record amounts of 386,000 not quite the 750,000 you said and the number of taxicabs is set by law at 11,787, not quite the 200,000 upi claimed. No new taxi licenses have been issued for over half a century, making the taxicab medallion (which is merely an aluminum plaque bolted to the hood of each cab) the central symbol of the regulatory system.
Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
Some do buy used cars, police or otherwise. Others buy new cars. Then they spend big bucks upgrading them to spec. Cabbies have told me it cost them anywhere from $10-25K upgrading cars.
I don't think that hybrids cost $20K more than their non-hybrid competition. If gasguzzling cabs get something like 10MPG, the way I do in NYC traffic (in my 25MPG highway car), and gas is $2.50:gallon, that's $0.25:mile. $10K is 40K miles, which cabs probably do in 6 months. So even a $20K premium on a hybrid (which doesn't exist) is repaid in a year. Cabs seem to stay on NYC streets for about 5 years, so that's a 4:1 payback, of a significant investment (again, assuming the investment is anything like that large - otherwise it's a much higher rate of return on a small investment).
Then consider the halved refueling downtime, among NYC's scattered gas stations and fleet garages, and the money is really compelling. Since NYC pays for lots of services related to gas consumption (fuel transport regulation, asthma healthcare, etc), it's got its own financial stake. Then consider the less-direct savings, in breathable air, less-dirty buildings, less dependence on foreign oil, and hybrids are the way to go.
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The taxi commission in NYC, in addition to issuing medallions and driver credentials, approves the models of cars allowed to be used as yellow cabs. Until this announcement, no hybrid models were approved.
You can take this as an example of silly over-regulation, but I and many other New Yorkers find a compelling interest in uniform equipment, verified vehicle safety, and the other regulated aspects. Deregulation would be a zoo, and life here is hard enough already -- it's nice to be able to rely on yellow cabs.
Now I'll agree it was dumb when the taxi commission sold some medallions specifically for hybrid cabs -- at a discount, to encourage the conservation aspect -- more than a year before they approved use of any actual hybrid car. The medallion owners had to sue to get their attention. NYTimes had a story on this several weeks back.
I'm not even sure if this deserves a response, but...
. php
1) source? you really shouldn't quote numbers without a link.
2) data manipulation? what about the rest of the US.? you know, the part closer to the north pole?
3) do your fucking research! It is NOT very possible that we are coming out of a mini ice age. In fact, almost all scientists (especially those not employed by polluting industries) agree that this is not the case. You may have been misinformed by media that often quote radical scientists when trying to present a "balanced" report:
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1978
4) You believe that science should provide proof that greenhouse gases cause global warming?
How about all the information here: http://unfccc.int/essential_background/items/2877
Oh that's right, you're going to say that we shouldn't trust the UN, even if these reports are published by the top scientists in the world? Well, didn't you take high school chemistry? Anyone with knowledge of simple chemistry will tell you of the potential dangers of green house gases. (yes, i say potential here to be diplomatic -- see #7)
5) you like to separate yourself from "environmentalists", because you obviously don't care about the long-term environment, and would rather have cheap prices today than do your part in keeping the world safe for future generations? that's selfish and narrow minded.
6) ahh..environmentally-friendly liberal media. do you just like throwing around these sayings, because you've heard them so many times they must be true? are you really that stupid to fall into partisan name-calling tactics? anyway, in terms of environmentalism, the media is actually biased against environmentalism (see above link).
7) even IF we are at the end of a mini ice age (which is highly unlikely), you still must recognize the possible devastating effects of our continued release of so many green house gases into the atmosphere, and should especially be in favor of economically-friendly initiatives.
8) I'm not sure why you chose this forum to voice your support of Bush, and ignorance towards the Kyoto agreement. This story was about taxi drivers who drive environmentally-friendly cars because it is ultimately cheaper for them, hence invalidating your claim that environmentally-friendly products cost the consumer more.
9) There ARE environmentally-friendly solutions that are also economically beneficial. In fact, this is really the best way to get industries to act in the environment's (and hence, in OUR) best interest. Simple examples include environmentally-aware heating and air-conditioning, like placement of the windows, or having heat ducts near the floor instead of near the ceiling. More complex examples generally involve symbiotic relationships with our environment to utilize a renewable or recyclable resource.
10) Please leave your politics at the door, and before responding to an article with your bias, research the topic. Forget everything you think you know, and take a fresh look at the information available. It will only make you a smarter person.
NYC lives off of these " extremely shortsighted capitalists" and you know that damn well.
Your city will be ruined if your fucking commies take it over and run out all these "evil & greedy" from the town.
That will be end of it.
Just keep in mind that global warming or status quo aren't the only possible changes to the earths climate.
I'd rather spend money to figure out where the earth's climate is headed, how much of that is man made, and what would be effective measures to counteract that. (Assuming that the "new" climate is less optimal that the current one.)
However you do have a good point about improving the air quality in cities for the inhabitants of those cities. Smog really sucks to breath.
Getting out of the city is what makes one appreciate America... Trully, Jefferson was dead right in his prediction:
Really? They do? All those trade union cum mafiosos do? You did not "keep them off" anybody's backs, you are proud of them -- and keep reminding the critics, how Mafia helped America invade Italy (!). Because the 50% (if that) is not sufficient to justify the cost of a new car?Or because they have no money left after paying $800K for the taxi medallion -- through an artificially maintained government monopoly?
The cost of fuel is only a small part of what they are paying...
No "Che Guevara fans" ride in their taxis and complain to police, when they find out, the cabbie happens to like Bush.In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Wow. i was born and raised in rochester till 1996, then moved west. I never thought of Rochester as having taxis driving around like other cities. sure you can CALL one, but I don't think I've ever seen one just driving around looking for a fare. I guess my home-town is growing up... *sniffle*
Why not a simpler way to encourage hybrids: You can exchange one current (non-hybrid) medallion for two hybrid medallions. We fill the streets with hybrids, create more competition, and collect more tax revenue.
I rejoice that there are owls.
He didn't say global warming is a myth. He said there isn't proof connecting green house gases and global warming. There is evidence showing that the tempture rise we've observed so far is probably part of global tempture cycles.
As for reducing pollution from cars, meh. Show me benefit beyond a warm and fuzzy feeling.
Nobody asked you for your harebrained binary advice about NYC. We've got a pretty good balance, with ups and downs, between the people and the corporations. We don't "run out evil & greedy" people from NYC. We do make stupid loudmouths look like monkeys when they talk bullshit about "commies" and other crap like you. The biggest ruination of NYC has been all the out-of-towners who moved here during the bubble, pretending to be New Yorkers, when all they know is where the Starbucks is. It's watering down our image, so that even yapping Anonymous Cowards, too gutless to have an NYC street argument out in the open, think you have clue #1 about what goes on here.
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Gas runs at $2.50/gal here. I have a 2001 Prius and it takes $25-26 to fill with about 9-10 gallons(?) of 87 unleaded. (The tank holds 11.9 gal.) For that $26 I get about 450 miles.
The display shows a running histogram of mileage. Generally you get 25 mpg during the first five minutes after a cold start. After that, 50 mpg and above is typical. (On the highway. In the city the car is really miserly with fuel- over 60 mpg.)
There was a recall on the batteries recently, because of some problem with leakage. So I got a brand new battery for free a few months back when the car was at the dealer for regular maintenance. Which is nice, because they're expensive (about $8k I've heard).
One thing you have to watch out for is the LRR (low rolling resistance) tires that are standard on the Prius. They wear out after about 30000 miles. You can replace them with real tires, which last twice as long but incur a 3 mpg fuel penalty. If you figure an average of 45 mpg, you're buying 666 gal of fuel over the lifetime of the tire, costing $1666 at $2.50 per gallon (Bay Area). So that times 3/45 is in the ballpark of about $100 of saved fuel- about 25 gallons. It's probably cost effective to replace the tires but environmental and laziness concerns have to be weighed in as well. (All these numbers are from memory, so I may be a bit off.)
This is just not true. Even if we don't know for certain that man-made emissions are affecting global climate change, the potential costs are high, and the real cost of compliance is relatively low. I don't remember the specifics, but I have heard projected costs of reducing greenhouse emissions at a 10-15% increase in energy costs. Yet, over the past 5 years, gasoline prices have doubled, and other energy costs have also risen considerably. This has certainly hurt the economy, but as you say it is recovering, and I would hardly call what happened 'devastating' as Bush claims that they Kyoto protocol would have been.
Finally, while you can argue about whether the recent increases in global average temperatures are more due to man-made emissions or natural cycles, increasing atmospheric CO2 absolutely will in the long run increase global tempeartures. There is no scientific doubt on this subject, and any college physics student can calculate the effect. The evidence that human emissions are contributing to rising atmospheric CO2 is almost as certain, though the degree to which natural carbon sinks will compensate is not known, so we could be off in the time scale of the effect. Nevertheless, unchecked greenhouse emissions will eventually cause substantial climate change. There is absolutely no doubt about that, and anyone who tells you otherwise is ignorant, stupid, or lying.
This had a little bit more in-depth discussion a few weeks ago at http://www.mixedpower.com/
Regarding Hybrid Cars - Check out the gas savings calculator at http://www.mixedpower.com/ to see how much you can save with a hybrid vehicle. Most people are prety surprised at how quickly you recoup the "extra" cost, especially with rising gas prices.
If you are interested in Hybrid vehicles there is a lot more information there as well. The forums havea lot of good information and theres even a free buy and sell for hybrid stuff.
Cheers!
Please refer to the second graph here.
That's quite a spike we see in the last century. Yes, a lot of it was before the 1940's, but another big increase is in the last 20 years. Meanwhile, the last few centuries before this one show much less change.
Please don't say "1 degree is irrelevant". The difference between where we are now and an ice age is about eight degrees.
Another thought: Corporate America has a clear interest in convincing you that global warming is a non-threat. If they succeed at this, they earn more money. On the other hand, environmentalists have no such interest in convincing you of their side. They will not receive more money. In fact, in terms of money, they will probably end up worse-off, due to the economic damage their policies will create. Yet, they persist in arguing their case.
Who do you trust?
So what's the big deal? I saw THOUSANDS of green taxis in Mexico City last time I was there. They all appeared to be made by volkswagen. And from the looks of them, they have had them there for many years!
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Good pictures here: http://www.manganese.com/presentations/2004_inter
I guess NY is just catching up with the rest of the world now???
I should have pointed out that the information I quoted came almost completely dirrectly from schallerconsult.com
Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
even yapping Anonymous Cowards, too gutless to have an NYC street argument out in the open, think you have clue #1 about what goes on here.
And what, "Doc Ruby" is your real name? I don't see you giving out your location so some slashdot nerds can come down and dribble on you, why not, you're such a tough New Yorker, right?
I thought that hybrids were only efficient for highway driving, but not so great for stop-and-start traffic - and that "leadfoot" drivers also further reduce the efficiency (since the internal combustion engine is never shut down that way).
Am I missing something? Or is NYC seeing hybrids as a panancea that won't work? Perhaps just having smaller cars is the answer. And perhaps pouring the money into further improvements for public transport make even more sense. How about tax breaks for folks _without_ cars?
I'm largely ignorant about hybrids, so I'm not trolling, I'm asking. I did lookup up "Prius FAQ" on Google, and found this:
"Short trips KILL gas mileage." Isn't that what taxis do all day? Make lots of short trips?
jh
Why don't they just run diesel engines? 50+ MPG, excellent performance, low emissions, and non of the hassle with batteries or motors.
PocketGamer.org - For the gamer on the go!
In many instances environmentally friendly alternatives are not always more expensive than the standard versions. In some instances they can be cheaper.
There is a US building code (I have forgotten the acronym) concerned with energy efficient buildings. The changes typically add 2% to the capital cost of an office building but reduce energy usage by 30%, typically paid for within 2 years. Thus if the office building is up for more than 2 years it is CHEAPER! Also the extra use of natural light in the designs seem to result in higher worker productivity.
I believe the "20K more" figure to be correct. However, people and companies don't pay that amount because the government subsidizes the cost. So, for taxi companies, the benefit is twofold.
I am not convinced that some how 'Corporate America' wins if people think that global warming is not a threat. If it turns out to be true then they will also lose. I think it is more a devotion to the status quo.
Changes can be made to vehicles, construction techniques, town design and so on that could make a lot of difference to energy usage without affecting expense of quality life much at all, but it would mean that markets would be more open to new businesses offering these products and services which might make some companies nervous.
More radical reduction of waste requires more changes to business and industrial processes that further widens the field.
What I think the corporations need to do is take the bull by the horns (and some are beginning to do so) and innovate in the areas of energy efficiency. By taking a lead they can offer energy efficient products that will appeal to the consumers even if global warming turns out not to be a problem, and also if it does.
Abundant evidence of Robber Barons? We invented the term, and they're still all over the place, held in check by the laws we passed when they went too far to sustain, a century ago.
You don't know anything about New York. You've got the lame hick attitude that because people don't have time to do you favors, or speak your peculiar homespun dialect of manners, we're rude. I've lived around this country, and New Yorkers are generally the most truly considerate of others I've met, mostly because we're more aware of other people, and generally quick on the uptake. Now, I didn't claim New Yorkers are "nice". You confuse your mommy's home cooking, and her prying into your affairs, with "freedom". I expect you don't have any real friends here, not real New Yorkers anyway, or you'd know how a NYC friendship can be stronger than family anywhere else. Because it gets tested so often by the stress of this huge, fast, competitive city. If it survives, it's strong.
Your entire post is a litany of hollow NYC cliches. You're obviously too scared to really deal with New York, so you shiver and clench when you see us up close. I'd recommend you try to relax, and find out just why we're the only global city in the country, why people flock here to work, live and play, despite all the adversity. But we don't need you. You don't understand New York, or freedom. Like how that "artificial government monopoly" was how we reined in an out-of-control unregulated business that was killing people in the streets, ripping them off, and clogging up the arteries of the city whose business is essential to the US and global economies.
Or economics. They're paying $800K for medallions because they are worth more than that in revenue.
You aren't very good at math, either. $2.50:gal gas in 10MPG vehicles driving easily 200K miles a year is $50K saved per year. If their profits were so tight, fleets would be buying only hybrids. Instead, they're fat and lazy, and it's hurting the City. So we're doing something about it. That's what we do in NYC: we do things.
Now your "Che Guevara" taxi riders shows you don't know anything about Guevara, either. He'd be the last to call the cops on a cabbie, even if that cabbie was fool enough to like Bush. Like a real New Yorker, he'd tell that cabbie exactly why they were dead wrong to like Bush.
But I guess that last comment explains your entire post. Your one of those Red people we see on TV sometimes, who talk shit about "9/11", using New Yorkers as human shields for stupid moves like invading Iraq, or shorting NYC billions in defense money, instead spreading it around your Welfare States like gutless, greedy cowards. Perfectly consistent with your demented hatred of New York's freedom, you're lying about what happens in the backs of taxis. How do you know about these alleged "Che Guevara fans" in the back seats? Unless it's *you*, or *your friends and associates*, I don't see how you could know, if these events even happened. Instead, I expect you're just lying to make NYC look bad. Well, that might work on the lunkheads in your exurban paradise that New York's work supports. But you made the mistake trying to bullshit a New Yorker. Next time, take the bus - to New Jersey.
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You can by the bust station and airport :-P
:-/
Pain in the ass expensive to get a ride to school from one though
Probably not so much in taxes as in increases in taxi fares.
What's an extra $20 on your taxes when you I'm paying an extra $2 for every taxi ride?
And don't complain that this in taxes would be taken from people who don't ride taxis. It's your air too (I don't really care what kind of taxi I ride in).
There should be national support and a firm deadline for the conversion of all public service vehicles to hybrid technology. Something along the lines of "all hybrid by 2008" .
With respect to hybrid, there should be no reason why fleet vehicles that are either fully owned or subsidized by local governments are not already on a program with an equally agressive posture. Most of us in the USA already see some kind of eBus or hybrid vehicle presence in daily use for public rapid transport. They are still so novel that I take the time to notice and admire that this is one more step in the right direction. I'm not referring to the overhead "bumper car" style electric busses or trolleys, but the true free-drive busses used for inner city and rural public transport. What I'm proposing is the conversion of the entire fleet in every American city, and a deadline to back it up.
I know the article is about taxicabs, but if owner-operators can make the leap in New York, why can't it work also on the national level as a mandate for the conversion of all public service vehicles? The sheer number of vehicles sold should be incentive enough for all auto manufacturers that have (or will have) a hybrid vehicle in their lineup to become involved in garnering support from appointed public officials and their constituents.
How can a complete conversion of fleet vehicles, especially public service inner city or rural transportation, not make sense everywhere? People will still have their SUVs and QuadCabs as a means to get around for personal transport, and rightly so. However, when you choose to ride public transport - school busses included - you would do so on a vehicle that was part of a comprehensive national fuel conservation and toxic emissions reduction agenda.
NYC taxis already suck. The Crown Vics are absolutely awful: no rearseat leg room whatsoever.
I'm all for hybrid taxis, but definitely not hybrid economy car taxis. No hybrid SUV taxis either: those things haven't got enough rear seat legroom either.
Hybrid minivans or London-style taxis? All for it!
there's over 8 million people in the area
According to the census bureau, it's 19,190,115 people. So, yeah, over 8 million.
Get minivans or other taller vehicles. Crown Vics don't have shit for legroom, especially with the bulletproof divider that's installed for taxi use.
TLC has permitted some other vehicle types for taxis, and by far my favorite is the Honda Odyssey. Nice and tall, great legroom and cargo capacity.
Of course, I'd also love the London cab.
And there's no technical reason why any of those couldn't have hybrid powertrains, or LNG.
The poster claims: Soon, a large portion of New York's yellow cars will also be "green."
... Eighteen of the licenses were sold, at an average price of $222,743, one-third less... "
I would counter with an article I read in June in the Times:
In summary, the only push for green taxis so far has been a trio of operators who purchased discount medallions from the city and then couldn't use them b/c there were no hybrids approved as taxis.
Hybrid Taxis Encounter Catch-22 Of Regulation
By SEWELL CHAN (NYT) 989 words
Late Edition - Final , Section B , Page 1 , Column 5
"Last October, New York City officials held a special auction of 27 heavily discounted taxi medallions that could be used only with cabs powered by natural gas or by a combination of gasoline and electricity.
The infrastructure invested in the current NYC yellow taxi fleet, which happens to be almost exclusively Ford Crown Victoria, is not small. Savings on Petrol will not offset the costs of changing vehicles and support infrastructure. While the poster says "soon", I don't see "a large portion" of cabs going green before 2010.
A Toyota Prius costs under $20K. So unless those government subsidies are paying buyers to take the nonhybrid cars, I don't see how you could be right. And I'd like to know more about these government subsidies you mention.
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Corporations which cause a lot of pollution would be hurt by added environmental requirements, since they would have to pay to upgrade their factories, use more expensive techniques, etc.
... innovate in the areas of energy efficiency.
:(
But, you are absolutely right that this will also create new industries which produce such environmentally-friendly equipment, etc.
What I think the corporations need to do is
Getting back to the hybrid topic, Toyota is a great example of this. In 1993 (I think) they announced their "Earth charter", which lead to the creation of their hybrid engine. The goal of the project was explicitly to design an environmentally-friendly car. And now it looks like it's paying off for them, big time. In 2000 they announced the beginning of their "New Earth Charter", in which they are researching not just ways to make a car that operates cleanly, but new manufacturing techniques to make it more friendly to build and ways to improve disposal. It sounds like they're really putting a lot of effort into it.
Some more details.
Meanwhile, car companies here in America are innovating in entirely different directions.
The Toyota Prius debuted at $20,000. It's now a grand or so higher. The Civic Hybrid is several thousand less. Are you implying that Crown V's are free?
I'm not asking for your "real name", just the minimum ability to tell your dribbling nonsense from the other Anonymous Cowards'. But, since you offered, I'll name the place, and you can name the time. Then I can explain things to you properly.
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And i live for the day when all the christian get raptured into heaven so the rest of us can live happy healthy lives on Earth. I cannot imagine a better heaven than an earth without the bigotry and hate that is the misappropriated statements of the loving and peacenik Jesus. A Jesus that tried to live everyday helping people, and making the world a better place, not justifying his massive consumption and obsessing compulsively about the end of the world.
I mean we all know that his primary concern was that we would all get the best price, no matter who has to suffer to get it. Or that none of us should ever have to suffer, even if such suffering meant less harm to his fathers creation. No Jesus died on the cross so that we in American could all buy cheap shit at walmart. (Oh dude, you not supposed to say shit in front of jesus!)
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
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Okay. Try standing behind a car and breathing in the exhaust fumes. Then tell me that that stuff is good for the environment.
Eyem gwad yoo cud unnerstam dis. Kno kneed too trie annd speel rite, becuz yoole ghet wot eye meen. Afftr al, das wot kownts, rite?
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
A Pascal's wager of sorts...
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
I like your use of bold letters to try and help push your agenda across. We should all believe the bold words without any proof.
I'm saying the toyota Prius costs $40,000 dollars to make. Toyota sells it to the car companies for $40,000. USA pays off $20,000 dollars, and then the car sells for $20,000 dollars. Hence, the word subsidized. Consumers get the hybrid cars for cheaper than what it's worth.
Hybid vigour is common in the F1, allthough haldane's rule may cause some issues. However we may see hybird breakdown in f2 and subsequent generations.
Do hybrids actually mean less total emissions? Or just less at the tailpipe?
Electric cabs that hence make no noise as they approach? Have you guys ever seen NY cabbies drive?
Talk about silent but deadly!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
A passenger car goes from start to finish and then stops.
A taxi goes from start to finish and then cruises around looking for the next start (I used to drive one, so I know).
Which is the least polluting plan?
Better: make all cars hybrid.
More Better: make all cars hydrogen.
Best: everybody stay at home an telecommute. (and make all pizza delivery cars hybrid.)
Thank you. If I had learned to associate crucifix pendants and church attendance with people being particularly hardworking, honorable and all-around good, perhaps I'd have a better attitude toward Christians today.
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Go make some tea from a hemlock tree. Drink it and tell me that stuff is good for the environment.
Go to a beach where the seawater is as clean as it could possbily be. Drink it and tell me that stuff is good for the environment.
Of course, you're right, but "stick it in your body" isn't a valid litmus test for environmental safety.
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
I think the biggest obstacle getting hybrid taxis on the road is the lack of taxi-sized cars with hybrid engines. I was in New York last year and their cabs have quite a few safety mods for the driver and passenger.
For instance, there's a wall between the driver and the passenger side of the cabin. That's going to be pretty tough to squeeze into any car smaller than a Crown Vic.
This is a problem specific to New York cabs. And loosening up the specs for taxis may not be the answer -- they were put there for a reason.
This won't be a problem in cities like Toronto and Vancouver, where the Prius can already be seen ferrying around people.
The only two large(r) sedans that have hybrid engines are the Prius and the Accord. If the big three were smart, they'd build a hybrid engine for small trucks with their Japanese partners to lower development costs (Ford/Mazda, Chrysler/Mitsubishi, GM/Toyota) and stick those suckers in the Crown Vic/500, Magnum/300 and the Impala/Regal.
--- Dan
..and you call gasoline 'petrol'?
;)
I've lived in Canada all my life and never heard anyone of foreign origin call gas petrol.
I guess it's all the mocking we Canadians do to make you feel welcome in our wonderful country
I don't ride around in my pickup all day, either. I only take the pickup if I have stuff to haul, or if I feel like tailgating some Eastern snob in a Prius.
Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
The newer Prius models (the hatchbacks that look like a CRX done over for a sci-fi movie) share the mass production lines for the most part, they surely don't cost $40,000 to make. Toyota was asked to estimate how much the hybrid system added to the cost of the Prius for U.S. tax purposes. The figure they came up with was $2k to $3k. Whether that is a reflection of the actual cost at this moment, it is certainly their target.
As far as why hybrids don't already run cab service in NYC, if your RTFA you'll notice that none are yet approved for it by the regulatory commission. Of course since everything is corrupt and mismanaged, what hybrids get approved will probably end up being a story of bribes, kickbacks, and political favors rather than technological suitability.
Someone had to do it.
so some slashdot nerds can come down and dribble on you, why not, you're such a tough New Yorker, right?
dude, did you say dribble? You're so not ready.
lol.
un burrito me trampeó.
A few years ago, Ford introduced a slightly stretched version of the Crown Vic specifically to offset the thickness of the barrier. The unstretched version sometimes gives less than six inches of knee room between the front of the backseat and the barrier. This has nothing to do with obesity and everything to do with people liking their knees...
-JMP
Some people think hybrid cars cannot have good performances... I tried the Ford Escape Hybrid and it moves like a V6! I'm waiting for the 2nd or 3rd year generation before buying one... to make sure I'm not a "beta tester".
-Code
A lot of other cities have public transportation running on propane, etc. Many international cities have seen a lot of cut back in pollution just by switching the public transportation to a more environment friendly energy source.
Calgary cabs did a mass conversion to propane over two decades ago. At the time, petrol was $0.40/L and propane was about $0.08/L, so it was easy to recoup the conversion cost even with the 20-40% efficiency hit of propane.
Now, however, propane costs 60-80% of the cost of petrol, and not surprisingly as cabbies replace their vehicles they haven't been converting. Although you still will get a net savings, it now takes too long to recover the up-front cost of the conversion. Especially when your car now gets 20-30 MPG instead of just 10.
Without significant financial incentives, nobody's going to convert. Sadly, we are still a long way from fuel prices hitting the point that converting off of petrol is a significant incentive in and of itself.
Off-topic a bit, my previous car was an ex-cab that ran on propane. It was sweet to see fuel prices going up and still be filling my car for around $20CDN. Finally fell apart beyond my means, but that was right around the time propane went sharply up in price so I guess it was as good a time as any.
Seriously, cab emissions are the least of your worries if you're upset about pollution in New York. Pulling the "save our children" card probably won't work in this situation because, while switching the cab fleet to hybrid cars will reduce some of the air pollution, it won't remove it entirely. Did you ask Bloomberg to shut down nearby industries, ban trucking, and to raise the bridge and tunnel tolls while you were at it? Also - I spent 18 glorious childhood years in New York - my lungs are fine, as is the rest of me. I stayed away from cigarettes and Chinatown in the summer, and it's done me a world of good.
WTF would a rickshaw do with CNG - Swallow it and then light his farts?
Oh well, what the hell...
Alternatively, you could have bought a diesel. Even less fuel consumption than a hybrid. Diesel is cheaper than petrol too. The trouble with hybrids is that they simply don't make ecomomic sense.
Oh well, what the hell...
If it weren't vaguely unfair-use to do so, I'd be forwarding this post to every other New Yorker I know. Amen, pal, and keep the blowtorch set to high.
A point I haven't seen anyone raise yet, BTW (though this thread's gaining terrain fast): The prospect of reduction in not only air but noise pollution. I'm not one of those bumpkins or yuppies that yelps about the noise near nightlife venues (if you don't like it, folks, go back to Connecticut and free up the decent apartments for the people who can hack it), but it'll be kind of cool to hear the results of less idling in front of aforementioned nightlife venues
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
I'm not sure why either of you are bashing the parent. Everything they've said is correct, despite the pointless bold lettering. I'm sick and tired of people saying that "well, if you can't ban it everywhere, why ban it anywhere?" It is obvious that switching thousands of cars to hybrid is a good idea for those in the city.
New York might also reduce car pollution by loosening the rules for running a taxi, in order to reduce the need for private cars.
How the hell does that make any sense? NYC is not hurting for cabs whatsoever... go stand on any street and you can see hundreds of them. Why would allowing for MORE taxis reduce the number of cars, OR the amount of pollution? If any Tom, Dick, or Harry could drive his SUV around as a Taxi, we'd all be WORSE off as far as pollution is concerned.
Oh, and submitter, please don't throw in baseless crap like "Soon, a large portion of New York's yellow cars will also be "green."". This is a trial, and they want to see how it goes. It will still be a few years before any real changes occur, but we are making progress.
For the average person it's unclear.
For a taxi in NYC, hybrid is probably a win. Those batteries will still wear out in 3-5 years, but they'll stand a lot better chance of having saved enough gas to make up for it before they croak.
Now if they just wouldn't use SUVs. How stupid. They could use 33% less gas again (at least) if they had a sedan that fit the bill (apparently the Prius doesn't have enough passenger legroom).
Taxi's are regulated because you want people to feel safe getting into a complete stranger's car. I think if Taxi's weren't regulated many, many people would be afraid to use them. Further, it would destroy the taxicab industry, as no one would be able to afford to be a taxicab driver fulltime as during busy seasons they'd be in line with 50,000 unemployed people trying to make a buck and during sparse periods they'd have to haggle the price of a cab down to virtually no profit.
"I would like to slap a taxi sign on my car and drive down to the airport. A couple hours later, I would have enough money to go back to the bar." - I wouldn't want to get in your car, and you don't even have any mischevious intentions."
You are making an important mistake here. It isn't the environmentalist* crowd which are primarily espousing the greenhouse gas - global climate change connection. It is scientists doing so**, and there is infact general consensus on the matter. As opposed to the squeaky wheel climate change deniers, the scientists have hard data, the laws of physics and chemistry, the best predictive computer models, and decades of study on the subject to back them up. The deniers only have self interest and the entrenched status quo on their side.
[*] often code for the tree hugging hippie dope fiend ad hominem attack.
[**] Read this joint press release from the Academy of Sciences of eleven nations from a few weeks ago:
[HTML]
http://www.mindfully.org/Air/2005/Joint-Science-A
[PDF]
http://nationalacademies.org/onpi/06072005.pdf
~.~
I'm a peripheral visionary.
I'm just responding according to the assumptions the original poster made. It's a stronger argument to say that even if the environmentalists were tree-hugging hippies like the O.P. thinks it's better to listen to them anyway than it is to try to refute that by saying there's a scientific consensus.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Maybe now that the taxis have little less acceleration from a complete stop, taxi drivers won't be able to drive as if they were above the law (think GTA-style driving sans the crashes, but with a row of parked cars to separate the pedestrians from traffic).
On the other hand, I wonder what would happen to all the undercover cops who drive taxis. For those who do not live in NYC, there are actually a fair amount of police cars that are marked like and serve as fully-functioning taxis. If all the regular taxis became hybrids in the next few years, I wonder if those undercover taxis will have their power compromised too for the sake of their disguise.
"And if the environmentalist of the early 70s were right and the pollution was the only thing holding off a new ice age, we'd be really really screwed."
It is a myth that such an ice age was predicted.
That second graph you point out has long since been discredited. The algorithm used to create it will always create similar looking graphs, no matter what data it is fed. Source: http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/10/wo_ muller101504.asp
"Corporate America"? What about "political America funding science thus resulting in completely false results like the graph you cited"? Most global warming studies are funding by groups dedicated on proving that global warming exists. Yeah, that doesn't harm the results. No, no.
Lastly, nothing has been shown to link pollution with global warming. It is much more likely that global warming is part of natural climate cycles (but why would chicken little let fact get in their way?).
Free of Flash! Free of Flash!
Asshole, you're hopeless. So I'll keep it short.
1> I am being rude to you, because you're a dick who pissed me off with your bullshit. When someone deserves rudeness, they get it. Pronto. None of this fake "niceness" that means nothing except you're too much a pussy to confront someone when they're wrong. Your expectations of politeness after your asshole remarks are more evidence that you can't cut it in NYC.
2> ROBBER BARONS. You want a modern example? OK, how about the "West Side Stadium", which Bloomberg tried to give away to a real estate crony, for billions less than it's worth. Creating a transit nightmare. How could you possibly have missed that? Because you're a Bush-worshipping hick, who doesn't know anything about NYC except "people on the subway are scary".
3> The math is correct: 10MPG is what is saved in these efficient vehicles. You're so insistent on making "points" - the only one you've got is on top of your head. $25K:year savings is going to go pretty far on Toyotas that cost $20K new. Idiot.
4> Don't call me sweetie, even if you're prepared to explain that "on a meeting" nonsense. You're the one who doesn't know how to do anything, who's got only rhetoric.
5> Like your "racist vs cabbie" newspaper story. From the NY Post, Rupert Murdoch's flagship Bush propaganda rag, no doubt. Let me get this straight: from your insipid rhetoric about "Che Guevara" and your noticing some random, probably false story about a Bush hater, it's unreasonable for me to guess that you are a Red State asshole. But because some racist calls the cops on a Black Bush-loving cabbie (supposedly), you can guess that she's a "Che Guevara fan"? Fuck you.
6> You know nothing, you know no one. You've got no points. Yes, I'm passionate. And that "nerve"? I get off on showing stupid assholes how wrong you are. That's the NYC national pastime. Since NYC scares you, and fills you with "negative observations", don't come back. We don't need you. Whatever it is that you do around here on your "frequent trips", there's a line a mile long behind you of people who want to come here. Who probably get it enough that they'll do a better job, among the "rude" people who get everything done. Don't worry, you won't be missed.
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Also, emergency sirens wouldn't necessarily have to be so damn loud all the time. Even with all the cars silent, we won't be getting any "peace and quiet" around here anytime soon. I'd rather have the polyglot ruckus roaring in my ears than all those engines.
BTW, forward as you please. I'm flattered. If only there were a way to collect royalties...
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let's not forget geopolitics. our invovlement in the middle east would change too. less external support and money for corrupt dictators and monarchs too.
you have enlightened me. i shed a tear for the owners of walmart. they are always passing the savings along to us, now matter how much it hurts their bottom line. yeah, let's look out for the large corporations that look after us. ask not what corperations can do for you...
I guess fuel savings depend on gas. Here in the UK, gas (petrol) is something like 5.5 dollars a gallon (86p a litre standard unleaded x 3.78 (litres in a US gallon) x 1.74 (sterling to dollars). So I am guessing saving fuel is more attractive in the UK (and Europe generally I suppose) than in North America?
Wrong math. Under NYC conditions (or any large city conditons) the Prius will need a new battery pack every 50K-10K miles.
Cab companies (and drivers) are not stupid. There is a reason why they do not use hybrids anywhere in the world. Diesels, Gas Conversions (CNG or LPG) - yes (95% + of European taxis are either diesel or LPG). Hybrid - nope. The numbers simply do not add up. 6-8 battery packs over the average lifetime of a cab will kill any advantage from fuel savings.
Compared to that diesel, CNG or LPG actually have longer lifetime and lower maintenance than a plain petrol engine due to lower engine wear.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Finally! Europe is going for BioDiesel, but NY is going back to the electricity.
It is not widely known, but before we have all sold our souls to gasoline, back in the 1930's, a large number of delivery trucks in NY was running on electricity.
Just by the was, today is a birthday of Nikola Tesla, a genius that invented AC, and many other today-common things. Is it coincidenc?
Doing a good job is like spilling coffee on a dark suit, you feel warm all over, but nobody notices.
I've thought about this and I think that the idea hybrid car would have the following features.
-Reasonable price
-diesel powered
Why?
Well diesel engines only require slight modification to run biodiesel. Biodiesel is a net zero gain carbon fuel.
By this I mean that it's produced from organic crops so the carbon released is mearly absorbed by the next generation of fuel still in the fields.
The USA currently pays farmers $30 billion dollars to not grow crops. Why not pay them to grow Rape Seed and Soy so that the country can create an abundance of Bio-Diesel fuel.
The side advantage is that once the USA became less dependant on the oil of the middle east we would not have to be involved in middle east politics. Without our oil money the middle east would lose it's entire power base.
If we were really smart we would create a Hybrid car that used a sterling engine which is about 2x as effecient as internal combustion engines at extracting fuel power.
Sterling engines are what power nuclear subs. They only problem with Sterling Engines are that they tag 5 min or so to heat up and get miximum efficiency. With a hybrid car this is a moot problem because you can operate on battery power for the first 5 minutes.
Read more about this here:
http://www.hybrid-car-reviews.com/
Laugh at my ignorance while I learn Rails - a Real ne
The Civic Hybrid also qualifies for this AND you do not have to itemize to take advantage of the tax credit!
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
You totally pulled that stuff out of your arse. Diesel and LPG are popular because of the reasons you have mentioned. But there really hasn't been a chance for anybody to transition a taxi fleet to hybrids mainly because the first hybrids were small cars and unsuitable for taxi service. Now you actually have to come up with some data that shows the prius wears out the battery that quickly, and that the battery is priced so high that that it negates the fuel saving. Using your very dodgy worsed case math a taxi hybrid would need a new battery each 80K on average. Prius batteries were originally priced at $4000 to install but have been steadily going down in price, at that kind of cost a hybrid taxi would still be cost effective. Also the environment a new york taxi is in is the one where you will see the largest difference in fuel economy between a hybrid and a conventional engine.
There is a reason why they do not use hybrids anywhere in the world.
There are Prius taxis in the Greater Victoria area right now, and there have been for at least two years.
For me the real question is not the relatively small differences in mileage between diesels, hybrids, and standard cars, but which technology is going to develop in ways to seriously mitigate the real problem.
(I'm not saying the difference is irrelevant, though I'd much rather see US fuel economy standards rise, since those differences would matter a lot more if it applied to the millions of cars we introduce rather than the few thousand that go to the economically-minded.)
Diesels are very promising because we may be able to run them on something other than petroleum. Whether the biodiesel is more promising than ethanol-based solutions I'm not in a position to say.
And it may work to combine the best of both, putting a diesel engine in with a hybrid. Research into hybrids may also be useful if it can be combined with a different power plant (a fuel cell, or a hydrogen cell, for example.)
Today I think that individuals will make choices but they're going to make relatively trivial contributions to the overall problems of petroleum: pollution, greenhouse gases, diminishing supplies, support for repressive regimes that happen to have oil. The last is most important to me, but they're all good reasons and no matter which ones you support we're going in the same direction.
About the best you can hope for, I think, is to buy a diesel or a hybrid to send a message that you don't just want to keep doing what you've always done, and are willing to pay a premium to do it. If that encourages the auto manufacturers to put more research into higher-mileage cars and other technological advances, that's going to make a far bigger difference than a few MPG.
The maintenence cost keeps coming up in this thread. Do you have any basis for the MTBF you cite, and its cost? How about comparative info for maintenence costs of existing nonhybrid powertrains, and other components where Toyota has redesigned the Prius?
Another poster cited a cost of $2-4K extra for a Prius over a nonhybrid, otherwise identical except the energy efficiency system. At 75Kmi, per new pack (assuming your MTBF is accurate) with just 10MPG saved (probably more like 20+), that's 7500 gallons, at $2.50 (low in NYC) is $2000, which is breakeven. Since my estimates were charitable, there's probably still more profit. Even the labor for replacements is probably balanced by the savings in 50% less refueling stops instead of picking up passengers (and the labor required to support the refuels).
Even a breakeven, the hybrids see the savings sent to battery makers and hi-tech mechanics, rather than gas companies. And then there's all the savings from cutting pollution, including money not spent on healthcare and scrubbing buildings. It's all pretty close, except the human benefits of less pollution and energy efficiency/independence (the primary reasons to do this). So what are the actual numbers, with sources, on battery replacement?
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I spend a lot of time in New York and "being truly free" is the last sentiment that comes to my mind, when I'm here. People tend to be rude, nasty, and obnoxious. They are noisy and would not yield a seat on a subway. Service in most businesses is awful.
You don't know what the F* you are talking about. My rudeness aside, New Yorkers are not rude - they simply don't spout all the meaningless "Have a nice day" nonsense the rest of the country spouts without meaning a word of it. Because most visitors don't realize this they interpret New Yorkers as cold and rude. It really brands you as a tourist. I've found New Yorker's to be extremely friendly and helpful.
Service in NY is BAD? WTF are you talking about!? There is NO city in this country where service is a good as in NYC. Sure, you don't get a salesperson in a department store helping you pick out just the right shade of sweater (unless you are at Barney's looking for a $1,200 one), but most New Yorkers don't want salepeople bothering then uselessly anyway. Most New Yorkers just want all the useless salespeople to go away when we visit other parts of the country. "Just let me shop and stop bothering me for cryin out loud - if I need help I'll ask!"
And restaurants - there are no better restaurants in the country for service. Service levels that are unacceptable in NYC are the rule in most of the rest of the country.
Oh, and you didn't get a seat on the subway!! Well Boo-hoo! How horrible for you. The MTA only carries 5 million people a day and I guess someone just forgot to call ahead and save your seat for you? How many other New Yorkers were standing? I have seen people offer seats to people with kids, elderly and handicapped people daily on subways and buses in NYC for decades.
But then maybe New Yorkers are just rude to you because you are such a jerk - ever think of that?
Yes it is, which I imagine is one of the reasons Europe tends to have smaller cars, more diesels, and better public transportation than the U.S.
however, if saving money on fuel is the only deciding factor, it's probably still not worth getting a hybrid over a non-hybrid at current prices. Assuming it still costs about $5000 more to buy a Prius than a similar Corolla, paying European prices for gas instead of American prices for gas would only mean that you would make that $5000 back in fuel savings after 117,000 miles driven instead of 285,000 miles driven (even using rather optimistic fuel economy figures for the Prius) In other words, you might make that money back in the lifetime of the car if you never have to pay to replace the batteries. This is disregarding any tax incentives for buyinig a hybrid vehicle.
The numbers I used for those calculations, in case anyone is interested in double checking the math:
Prius fuel economy: 50 mpg
Corolla fuel conomy: 38 mpg
American price of gas: $2.25
European price of gas: $5.50
If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
The rudeness, I'm talking about consists of talking in subway -- across the car above the heads of dozens of people (and I am not just talking about caffeinated kids -- on my almost daily subway trips, I've seen groups of adults of colors entering through different doors and continuing conversations, as if there is no one else). I'm talking about taxis stopping in the middle of the street -- dozens of cars behind them be damned. Of pedestrians (and bikers) ignoring the traffic lights and mindlessly "flipping" the upset drivers. And yes, of (not) yielding one's seat to an elderly or disabled (forget about the fairer sex). You have seen it happen? Are you sure, that has been a New Yorker?
See, you can't even imagine a salesperson being useful -- and yet you claim to have the best service in the country... Pathetic.
What insight... What exquisite politeness... No, they are not particularly rude to me -- it is just that, what passes as normal demeanor here, is quite obnoxious by the standards of most places in the world. Just ask any other immigrant...In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
I mentioned that. See "reducing dependence on foreign oil" down at the end.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
50K-100K (typo on my side, I meant 100 and wrote 10. Bummer.). You say 80K. Average taxi life is 400K. That is 5 battery packs. The environment where the hybrid has the largest fuel economy is also the environment where it wears down fastest.
Thanks for confirming the numbers by the way. These were _exactly_ the numbers I meant to say and I would have said if I did not mistype 10 for 100.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
The blurb suggests that TLC decides which cars can be used as a taxi. Why on earth would a government commission have anything to say about that?