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Solar Energy Becoming More Pervasive
TheUploader writes "RenewableEnergyAccess is reporting that Solatec LLC has released a stick-on solar panel kit that charges your hybrid while parked. In related news, the world's largest photovoltaic system will be built, not on the roofs of Priuses, but on the ground of Nevada, and will provide clean energy for the US military."
The Prius has an MSRP of $21,725. At 10% the cost of the car, the solar panel kit ($2,195) seems like a reasonable deal, considering it facilitates 10% better gas mileage. At 55 mpg, the gas cost to drive 200,000 miles (at $2.20/gallon) is $8,000. At 60 mpg, the gas cost to drive 200,000 miles (at $2.20/gallon) is $7,333. The difference is $666. Considering the kit costs over three times what the gas savings amount to, it is hard to market on account of good money-sense. The only consolation is the concept of helping mother nature. I have limited understanding of the fabrication process of the solar panels, so it would be hard to say whether or not mother nature profits from this scenario.
So often we hear fuss about our petrol supply running out. Sure, perhaps someday it will. But like usual, basic economics will take care of the situtation for us. When one energy source becomes increasingly scarce, it will become more expensive. Thus other technologies, such as windmills and solar panels, will become relatively cheaper. And thus people and businesses will switch towards them, as in this case. Anyone with any economics background would have known that decades ago.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
Since we got rid of that evil Mr. Burns and his sun blocker. Not to mention all that incessant hooting.
It's that "Global Warming" thing. The sun is out!
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
I thought that there are other more efficient ways to harness solar energy.
Like polishing up a bunch of mirrors and focusing them on a source of water. You boil the water, steam spins a turbine and you get electricity.
Do solar panels really give us the most bang for the buck?
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
What driving conditions are they talking about? Is this just driving around or is the the typical work commute -- drive to work, sit in a parking lot all day, drive home?
Fight Spammers!
These things will never sell until the cars themselves make the right noise.
The major selling point for any car is image. Thus these hybrids need more grunt in their exhaust. Who wants a silent car? We want a car with a soundtrack to be noticed by.
.. remember the alternative sun being created by (or attempted by) the Chinese? But, solar and wind energy (unlike say Hydrogen) are so region specific, that they impose problems for wide-spread acceptability. And there arent any means found to store them successfully.
Let's triple or quadruple the cost of petrol, for instance, perhaps due to a stagnant American economy or an American attack on Iran. Now you may just see some benefits to such a system. Of course, if the prices rise quickly on such an essential commodity, things might change relatively fast. You may not have a job to drive to, for instance.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
That's fine and dandy that the military will be benefitting from green energy.. but how about consumers? Is this why the pentagon's budget is roughly $400,000,000,000.00 ? Because they get to spend spend spend spend on any damn project they like.. what does this have to do with protecting the country from tur'ists?
Fuck that shit... build the fucking array of photo cells and then reroute to energy straight to the heart of Vegas. You know how fucking expensive it is to run an air-conditioner during the summer.
I'm looking for the option to solar cook turkey burgers while driving through a desert. No need to stop off at McDonalds a hundred miles away when you stop off the side of the road to fix a burger.
I suppose at 0.6mm thick and with "aircraft grade adhesive" they must stick very well, but I still can't shake the image of these going flying off while driving on the expressway. Certainly a step in the right direction though.
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The United States Military, powered by PBR!
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I thought http://www.stirlingenergy.com/ was a better solution
Learn to love Alaska
Sadly, based on my understanding of the product described in the article, I don't see any way it can achieve any real MPG improvement. It only charges the small accessory 12V battery used for starting the car and running the power accessories(AC, steering, radio, etc). It provides no juice to the 28 200V main battery bank modules that power the engine.
But such curtailing will happen automatically. As oil becomes more scarce, the price will rise. And thus will rise the prices of products which require oil for their production. So the price of plastics will rise, for instance. People will begin to choose relatively cheaper alternatives. So your toothbrush will likely cost a dollar. But it may consist of a wooden handle, rather than a plastic one.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
And include some extra Li-Ion battery capacity and a plug-in bridge rectifier so that it's solar-and-grid-and-gas, and this would be *really* interesting for a dealership add-on. I'm willing to bet you could push it to nearly 25% increase in efficiency.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
If you're looking to heat water, the focused mirrors on pipe approach works fairly well (or just paint something black and move pipe water through it). Essentially you're just using various tricks to store heat produced from sunlight in a fairly efficient manner.
If you're looking at powering televisions and radios, though, you need to have electricity. Photovoltaics generally work best for that. Turning heated water into electricity does work, though at a lower efficiency.
There's other issues, of course. Just because photovoltaics are more efficient doesn't make them cheaper. There's the long-term costs and how much investment you're willing to make in order to get your cost savings.
Interesting point that alternative energy sources are only regionally effective. Maybe we should be focusing on the storage and transport of energy instead of collection. Then we just toss a few solar collection satellites in orbit where the weather can't affect their efficiency, and send it down in some manner more efficient than photons through an atmosphere.
Wow, those alien spaceships must need a lot of juice just to get them hovering off the ground.
If i wanted to hear bullshit, i'd go to church.
...and will provide clean energy for the US military.
Until the first big hail storm, that is. (grin)
But in all seriousness, how do such systems stand up to severe weather, particularly large hail?
Proverbs 21:19
Yes, a particular product today may require oil. But as the price of oil increases due to increased scarcity, manufacturers will instead switch to relatively cheaper non-oil alternatives. So often times you'll end up getting the same products, but they'll be made of a different, cheaper material.
It's happened with coins, for instance. While certain coins one contained large amounts of copper, they now are made mostly of zinc with a thin coating of copper.
Remember, plastic is only used so often today because it is so cheap. Once the price of plastic rises, people will switch to other materials which are relatively cheaper.
I lived a good portion of my life before plastic became widespread. We used glass bottles instead of plastic bottles for many drinks, for instance. Somebody who grew up only using plastic might have a difficult time accepting the idea of not using plastic products. But it's more than possible, and was reality even just a few decades ago.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
This is a really good thing for the Vegas valley and the Military, who will also be a customer (Nellis, Indian Springs, Nevada Test Site). As a resident of the Vegas valley I can assure you that we need more projects like this. It would be nice if they could use these Solar farms to produce all the energy Sotuhern Nevada needs, but I dont see that happening any time soon.
./'esque note, it would be nice to see a boost in jobs for engineers/IT because of this new plant, which needs trained technicians to keep it running.
On more of
On a political note, you have that pinko Sen. Harry Reid touting it like he had some hand in getting this project done. Sorry you bastard, you had nothing to do with it. This will be a privately owned project, no government hand, which in my book is the best way anything can be done.
Funny how all we have in office these days are communists and fascists...
it can not generate enough power during a sunny day to charge the large batteries in any hybrid a useful amount. sure it might charge your cell phone or electric razor but try powering your car off one of those.
do the math.
A typical car windshield can stop golfball-sized hail without much difficulty. It is quite possible that similar glass could be used to protect solar panels.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
How about this: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/01/psa_peugeo t_cit.html
Don't build them above the trees?
It's not like the places where solar panels would be placed are particularly nature-friendly anyway (rooftops). No one is saying bulldoze the rainforests and put solar panels there.
I'll form my OWN solar system! With blackjack! And hookers!
Stick black tiles on the roof of a house, and they absorb a massive amount of solar energy and don't do much with it except convert it to heat, which gets radiated and helps the greenhouse effect, which I think we're helping quite enough anyway. Stick solar cells on that roof instead and they absorb the energy and use it to heat a house's water supply, which would other wise have to be done by other fuels.
I did see a similar product recently from a link from a different site (not sure if this is the same one, since we've killed their server)-- and it worked by charging a *separate* 12v battery system. The problem was that they didn't want to screw with directly charging the hybrid battery since the controls were not designed to do that while the car was off. So they add another battery to store up the solar energy, which then dumps into the big battery (presumably through some sort of voltage conversion) when the car is running.
Not a terrible idea, but not great either. I think you'd be better off sticking the same number of panels on your roof, and selling the power to the grid. Same power saved, less hassle, fewer unnecessary lead-acid batteries, less weight on the car. The right way to charge the hybrid would require the hybrid to be designed for "plug-in" charging from the get-go.
we would likely see some disturbing side effects of using this energy.
Nah. It all ends up as heat anyway. Thermodynamics 101.
Others have said it before me but this would seemingly be worth it on a plug-in hybrid to charge the supplemental battery.
Here, we get about 70-80 percent of the electricity from a solar cell on a grey and cloudy day - yeah, it rains a lot here - but many people have hybrid cars. Way more than most other places.
So, while the hybrid car is sitting in the carpool lot, a rooftop solar panel can charge up the battery - or maybe carpool lots could provide these as plug-ins - while your car is washed clean by the soothing misty rains that drive you insane. Saves on gas cost - especially with the new plug-or-pump electric hybrids that let you plug in if you want to or just use gasoline/biodiesel.
Or you can use cheap hydro or wind power (3/4 of our energy supply) to plug in and do the same thing.
It's not like your car was doing anything - it might as well charge up while it's taking up valuable real estate.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Side note, we get less then 20% of our oil from the middle east, if they drop out completely we would just push harder on Venezuala.
On the other hand, if you buy a brand new VW Gold tdi (turbo diesel) for about the same cost (nicely loaded just under $22k) you get 45mpg (realistic estimate, not inflated EPA). So your fuel costs are similar to the of the Pirus but you have a car with significantly more power and pep. You also have a vehicle that can be feed 100% biodiesel and run with out a drop of petrol. And given the ruggedness of Diesel engines and the VW quality, you have a car that will continue to get 45mpg for 200,000. Compared to the Prius which is going to need new batteries every 3-5 years.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
Does anyone know, or have a link to the current state that PhotoVoltaics is in?? Are we still at the 15% effeicency or whatever?? I recall a few claims within the last year of somewhere around 60%, but alas, the whereabouts escape me.
Anyone know or working on this particular area of technology??
Looks like a CLOUD passed over their SERVER FARM!
Ha! Ha ha! Ha! Ha, ha ha! Ha ha, ha, ha!
Ah, renewable energy! Endless mirth!
I know there is a crapload of solar energy bombarding our planet every day, but isn't there some point where the amount of solar energy that we intercept for our own use causes problems with our environment.
If I remember this right, 75% of the light that hits the earth is reflected. I could be horribly wrong about this figure and it might only be 25%, but I believe the issue is that most of the light that is reflected is by the Ice caps since white reflects all colors verus the oceans reflecting only blue and forests only green.
I think we face more of a risk of absorbing too much light from lack of ice caps than building too many solar arrays.
Heck these solar arrays might actually reduce global warming since they are converting it to electricty instead of all just heat (yeah... there is plenty of heat still generated, but not as much).
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
. remember the alternative sun being created by (or attempted by) the Chinese? But, solar and wind energy (unlike say Hydrogen) are so region specific, that they impose problems for wide-spread acceptability. And there arent any means found to store them successfully.
Sure there is, gravity-pumped water storage. During sunny or windy periods, any unused draw is used to pump up water to a higher elevation, which can then be used for water usage (got to get the water in those towers somehow) or for power generation (how do you think hydroelectric dams work). Many nations like India and Denmark use this to store wind energy - they pump up the water and then use it.
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Let's see... incoming solar radiation either gets re-radiated back out to space, or ends up as heat energy somewhere. Incoming solar radiation that hits a solar panel gets reflected a little, goes to heat a lot, and generates a little electricity. Which eventually ends up as... heat.
The main impact of large-scale solar is how much you affect the planet's albedo (tendency to reflect the energy back into space). If you put your solar installations over surfaces with similar albedo (say, parking lots- they are both pretty black), you're good. Much less impact than, say, melting high-albedo ice caps.
I've forgotten the details, but I believe that the potential temperature forcing due to the albedo change of large-scale solar power is much, much smaller than the forcing of, say, doubling atmospheric CO2 (which at current trends we should easily reach in less than 100 years).
Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
This should help a lot.
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This sun charger will benefit people with short commutes much more than 10%. maybe as much as 100%. Whereas it will hardly benefit at all anyone with a long commute. Yet it's precisely the latter folks that benefit the most from pruis ownership. Moreover city drivers probably don't park their prius on the street, but rather in a sunless parking garage. So this will not affect urban pollution.
One the upside this probably works best during summer when gas prices are peaked.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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Therefore, here's a cached copy from Google:
http://tinyurl.com/7amp7
I Thess. 5:16-18. "Elephants are the only mammal not known to jump."
hmm, i had a similar thought about wind turbines potentially messing with weather patterns and wave/tidal energy technology messing with sea currents. But to be honest i thought i might be getting slightly paranoid - particularly when i started thinking that nuclear reactions might be messing with the finely balanced fabric of space/time and accelerating the collapse of the universe.
Solar thermal like the Stirling Energy Systems dishes just turned up, or the Solar trough technology, or thermoharmonic generators, achieves 30%+ efficiency and has been running neck-and-neck with photovotaics. Until PV utilizes more of the solar radiation bandwidth, I expect that both technologies will be used.
Someone had to do it.
The only consolation is the concept of helping mother nature.
I wonder if this product breaks even, energy-wise, when you account for the energy needed to manufacture it?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Any system that simplifies or minimizes the logistical load on any military installation or deployment is good for the military. For them, the issue isn't so much the absolute cost, but the availability of electric power when they might need it. Might not have been trivial in an age where field telephones could be energized by hand cranks...but considering the amount of information technology that goes to war with a post-modern army, it's not a bad thing for the guys in uniform to be investigating. If photovoltaics mean that installations in the field will not need as many gallons of diesel fuel to run generators, that diesel can be put to better use ferrying other needed supplies, or evacuating casualties.
Yeah, enough of this solar crap! We are using up the sun!
The dialectic gets you coming and going, comrade.
Yes, Cyric, but people don't understand economics; they understand finance and call it economics. That's like strapping downhill skis on a cross-country skier and expecting him to make it to the bottom of a black diamond trail in one piece. Finance and economics are both about money, right? Skiing is skiing, right? WRONGO, JACK!
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
(can't tell due to slashdotting) ...I don't believe the 10% claim. All they are doing is charging the tiny 12V system which only draws 200W, not the main batteries. Now if they printed a CIGS panel on the entire area of the roof/trunk/hood, they might be able to charge the main batteries like the Lapp Prius and actually get real results. Other than the flexible stick-on panels being very nice, they aren't ready for prime time yet if all they can deliver covering half the roof is 60W.
:-)
So A funny thing happened today, BTW -- I went to renewableenergyaccess like I usually do, and they were "experiencing technical difficulties." So I figured -- this is unusual, I've never seen them have problems before. Then I came here, and voila! Source of problem found!
(Folks interested in energy stuff are welcome at my dkos diary BTW -- skids.dialykos.com)
Someone had to do it.
PBR and SunEdison will develop a total of 36 MWs of PV projects in Nevada, enough energy to power 36,000 homes.
Or two casinos for 6 months! Come on, who are they kidding. Vegas is in Clark County. This power is going right to them!
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
Then pay me my commission on this idea that I never hear talked about otherwise in any serious manner.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Well, thank you ScuttleMonkey, just wish you'd linked to one of our more recent stories. Yes folks, we'll be off-line until you all find something better to do. Cheers!
Don't know about where you live but in my state diesel costs on average 30 cents/gallon more than 87 octane.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Unless you're storing vast amounts of energy in the largest batteries known to mankind, any energy captured by solar cells is going to quickly turn back into heat again anyway. May I remind you that that is exactly what would have happened had we not captured that energy in the first place.
Now, if you covered a large portion of the planet with solar cells, and used that power to run a giant laser which blasted that energy off into space, never to return, then you might run into some problems. But we don't use energy like that.
Am I the only one who thinks the Prius looks futuristic and cool?
+++ATH0
Read up on the "urban heat sink effect" of large cities. For every 1 mile radius of city, the core temperature rises up by 1 degree centigrade. So the core temperature for a large city can actually be 10 degrees higher than in the suburbs. And urban development causes rainwater to run off 10 times faster than if it were being soaked up by natural vegetation. This has the effect of disrupting local weather patterns to the extent that a city can actually created a rainfall shadow; an area downwind of the central core which has an artificially higher rainfall (which might not be too bad unless it's acid rain). NASA have more details.
The effect of solar panels is negligible compared to what we have already done.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
I was intrigued by the last part of the summary -- that the world's largest solar project (almost twice the size of the existing largest) will power not US houses, not US hospitals, not US industry, but instead will power the US war machine (an organization which has a publicly stated goal of world military domination).
Seems a fitting snapshot of the US's continuing economic decline.
a wind-up car for fuel efficiency
I lost my sig...
The invisible hand only reaches the correct solution when the correct information is available to the market. The true cost of oil is being hidden from U.S. citizens by a government system of targetted subsidies funded by universal taxation. Since the tax is applied universally, the public does not experience the true connection between cost and product, and therefore it not incented to move to lower-cost products.
Universal health insurance causes a similar effect in health care prices. When it costs the same to go to the emergency room as it does to go to the local clinic, the average person does not discern a financial reason to choose one over the other. The insurance system does experience the price difference, but rather than exposing the person to it, distributes it equally among all actors. The result is a greater financial burden on all, with no free-market mechanism to correct it. The problem is typically then solved by regulatory oversight, which introduces a new cost to the system.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
And if most Euros didn't resort to buggery your statement might mean something to most of us...
Putting solar cells on your car is dumb:
Having PV grid-tied, means you feed electricity onto the grid at typically peak usage times, then recharge your car at night at off peak rates.
A Prius' real-world mileage is less than a Golf or Jetta TDI, so it's about a wash.
Meanwhile, the Prius doesn't run on any alternative fuels, while the TDI will (with some degree of modification, NOT including engine internals) run on vegetable oil. Veggie oil kits will run you $650 to abotu $1200 depending on what kind you get. The higher-dollar kind is a single-tank conversion (from Elsbett) that lets you put diesel, kerosene, veggie oil, whatever into the same tank. I'm planning to get it for my Mercedes 300SD.
Assuming we're not going to cut down our vehicle use, there is only one rational answer to propelling them, assuming current technology: Build a bunch of hydroponic algae farms for the production of biodiesel. The leftovers can be used for fertilizer, and meanwhile the algae will be producing oxygen that we need desperately given that we're destroying oceanic life at unprecedented rates and oceanic algae is the source of the vast majority of our oxygen.
Hybrids won't help here, and the total energy cost of the hybrid is probably a LOT higher than a TDI, given the batteries and electrical system.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
pbr anyone? i for one support our new drunken overlords
So solar power goes from providing 1x10-1000000000 of our power supply to providing 1.1x10-1000000000, that's a *lot* more prevalent - yes!
... about that. The Iranians and the Russians, Venezuelans, Albertans, et. al. will take care of that for us.
They'll pay a couple hundred bucks to whoever recycles the pack, as an incentive for owners, mechanics, and junkyards to do so. It's like the bottle deposit some states have, only much, much larger.
But, do you park your car at home? Most people park at work.
...]
The best thing to do, IMHO, is to:
1. get a plug-able biodiesel hybrid car. (most hybrids don't plug in)
2. drive to the nearest park and ride or carpool to work.
3. plug in your biodiesel hybrid car at the park and ride or work carpool lot - either to wind-power or solar-power or hydro-power.
4. PROFIT!
Nothing wrong with having solar in your house, but it's best used there if you're:
a. retired;
b. working at home;
c. taking the biodiesel bus or hydro-powered SkyTrain to worl; or
d. using it to heat the hot water heater or provide passive solar stored for evening heat.
[ok, so I was one of the first 100 Solar Energy Society of Canada members
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I agree it's not economical, but 10%/year degradation is FUD.
More like 1-2%/year for good panels in normal radiation.
(10-20% over TEN years)
Here's a graph..(read down)
http://www.solarstorms.org/Svulnerability.html
I do not think it means what you think it does.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
I had major issues with my 2000 TDI New Beetle. We had 3 disabling events in the 4th year of ownership. Mileage between 60K and 80K miles. Even though my other car (a 1994 Lexus ES300) has 240,000 miles on it and the New Beetle was totally paid off we felt compelled to dismiss the Beetle.
During its first 60,000 miles we were seeing about 750 miles per tank at about 45 miles per gallon. It was a wonderful thing. However, this does not overcome a basic unreliability of the car (coupled with the inability of the local VW service people in Orlando to deal with it). Consumers Reports showed the New Beetle as no longer having the expected reliability as they showed in 2000 when we first started considering it.
In addition to basic motor problems the car had cosmetic defects caused by normal wear -- namely the plastic covering on parts was disintegrating.
Your Mileage May Vary (I had to say that).
On another related subject.. what I really want is a hybrid car with a mode switch that lets me select how low I'm willing to let the battery go before it starts the gas motor. If I'm commuting the 7 miles from home to work and around town I'd like it to let the battery go down to 20% or so -- I'll plug it in when i get home, thank you. While I'm on the highway I'd prefer it to keep the charge a little higher. Perhaps under I-Don't-Know mode I'd like it to keep the battery fully charged. I test drove the Lexus RX400H and was dismayed to see that the gas motor ran all the time I was driving. What for?
.. Blub falls right in the middle of the abstractness continuum. -- Paul Graham
Better yet, stick solar water heaters on the roof... black panels with tubes of water or glycol pumped by solar powered pump to heat exchange system.. can be used for space heating at night and hot water at any time. Raising the temp of water is one of the most energy consuming things to do, so bumping up the base temp with solar can reduce a power bill by quite a bit.
The major selling point for any car is image. Thus these hybrids need more grunt in their exhaust.
Maybe, if you're sixteen. Me, I'm interested in 60mpg. I'd drive a neon pink VW bus if it gave me 60mpg.
And while we're talking image, do you think that the only viable image is some neon riced-out rollerskate with a thousand dollar exhaust system? I'd rather have the image of someone who gives a crap about our current oil problems rather than a guest extra from 2 Fast 2 Furious.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
But unless all trips are VERY short you won't see the expected increase in milage with the solar cells.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
At least not in Nevada.
In Nevada and other hot climates, 1MW is really only enough to power 750-800 homes, not 1000. This is due to the demands of the air conditioners turning on. For a stretch last summer, it was so hot in LV, a/c units were running 24/7 because the nighttime low was only in the low to mid 80s (F).
The Doormat
If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
In the bay area, some places charge for you to park.
I work two days a week in the Bay Area. I take the Amtrak from the Sacramento to Richmond, then the BART from Richmond to Oakland.
At work the parking is $13/day if you get there early. At the hotel, parking is $16 for the night.
Granted, it takes 3 hours instead of 2 each way, but I can read a book, walk over to the cafe car to get some coffee in the morning.
On the way back on the second day, I can have wine or beer.
I could neither read nor drink if I took my car.
But my commute is unusual. The time spent and economics depend on how
far your place of work or home is from the subway and whether or not they
charge for parking. Or how long it takes you to find a place to park.
It is definitely not worth taking a bus to avoid a 10 minute walk.
YMMV
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
Who can put a price on that?
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
If the U.S. military helps to reduce U.S. dependence on "foreign" oil (keep in mind that as much oil comes from up here in Canada than from all mideast countries combined), then there won't be any job for them any more, will there?
Somewhere, there's a general wishing on a star that this whole solar thing will just blow over.
Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
As much as I agree with you about the concept of supply and demand, I still think the energy required to make, reprocess, and ship heavy glass would still use the same amount of petroleum if not more. Maybe we can go back to skin flasks?
your car is not who you are. it doesn't matter what it looks like it only takes you from point A to point B anything else is superficial. one other thing, stop complaining about gas prices if you are unwilling to give up a car that guzzles the stuff like water.
WTF?
Unless these cells are well protected you can bet they will break under hail.
Can't get to the sight so I don't know how these are protected if at all.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
you're correct regarding all gains from passive solar & riding a bike's better too.
bio-diesel's only a marginal idea IMHO: loads of particulate pollution, and modern western farming consumes massive amounts of petrochemicals. It's a good way to consume otherwise 'waste' oil, but I don't think it scales cleanly.
plug-in hybrids would be ideal: charge overnight with lower cost electrons yet have hybrid to get range and avoid slow charge problems.
Yeah, whatever will we make artificial rubber out of when the petroleum runs out? :-)
Who here really thinks that gas is going to stay under 3 dollars? If you do contact me I have a nice bridge in New York I think you would be interested in.
The Camel has Spoken!
Yes, the economy cars do, but have you seen the new Lexus Hybrid? Can't complain about that!
The other thing that needs to be considered is what kind of driving you do.
... but if it's true, it could seriously impact the efficiency numbers in certain climates. A diesel engine sees some efficiency hit as a result of the A/C compressor, but its not that significant. (I measured the MPG of my VW with the compressor running and not, and could never get a good handle on what the change was. It was below the error caused by month-to-month differences in my driving style, anyway.) I don't know about anybody else, but I am not prepared to drive without air conditioning, at least until gas is well into the double-digit dollars per gallon.
A gasoline hybrid like the Prius gets its best mileage in city, stop-and-go driving, because of the regenerative braking.
A diesel engine gets its best milage while cruising on the highway at a basically constant speed, in the transmission's highest gear.
I used to drive a diesel VW and *loved* it. It was fun to drive (torquey as hell) and had excellent highway range, well in excess of 500 miles to the tank. However that mileage went into the toilet if I had to do a lot of stop and go driving. Still better than a conventional gasoline car for the same driving, but nothing like a hybrid.
I think there will be a place for both types of vehicles in the future, and which one is most efficient for you depends on the type of driving you do. For me, it's almost highway driving -- a hybrid wouldn't have much of an advantage.
The other thing to consider is the air conditioning and heating requirements. I have heard it said that the hybrids derive a lot of their fuel savings by being able to shut off the gas engine when it's not needed (in city driving), but that if you have the A/C running, it won't shut off because there's no way to run the compressor electrically. If anyone can verify this I'd be interested
What I would like to see is a diesel-electric hybrid: combine the best of both worlds.
I also wish that there was some sort of tax relief for diesel passenger vehicles on the diesel fuel taxes, which are really excessive. They're aimed at truckers, but they've had the side-effect of making diesel artifically expensive relative to gasoline, and hurting diesel car development in the US. This is too bad, because it's a technology that really has a lot of potential. There are better/alternative ways of taxing trucking than putting a tax on diesel fuel. At the very least, we should have some sort of rebate program to allow diesel passenger car owners to get back the difference in taxes they pay over an equivalent amount of gasoline (if not the amount of gasoline that they would have needed to buy to drive the same number of miles, which would be more fair).
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Actually, the largest solar network should in part be built on the top of Prius's. Why is it that when we think of clean electric power we think we have to build the BIGGEST solar energy park? Why waste the space. Every item we make something, we should make it as efficient as possible and use solar and wind power as much as is practicle. We shouldn't have to make a solar plant like a traditional power plant. That defeats a large portion of why we are going to solar power in the first place!
you're correct regarding all gains from passive solar & riding a bike's better too.
or walking - which is what I do, most days. unless it rains a lot or I'm late.
bio-diesel's only a marginal idea IMHO: loads of particulate pollution, and modern western farming consumes massive amounts of petrochemicals. It's a good way to consume otherwise 'waste' oil, but I don't think it scales cleanly.
Denmark get's most of it's energy from biodiesel - using different/better crops. Think that's what Bush was going on about, even if he is a fool.
plug-in hybrids would be ideal: charge overnight with lower cost electrons yet have hybrid to get range and avoid slow charge problems.
Yes. I think many hybrids are or will have a plug-in adaptation available, for those who live in areas where:
a. electricity is cheaper than gasoline (e.g. Pacific NW, most of world);
b. lots of cheap solar or hydro or wind that can fill up when not at peak use;
c. interruptable charging - some firms get cheaper interruptible electricity in bulk and can use it for car-charging too;
d. they have really really long extension cords connected to massively parallel hamster cages at HamsterWorld.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I'd always wondered what that bright shiny thing up in the sky was. It's nice they found a use for it. I found it a nuisance. It keeps waking me up when it shines through my window. I've also heard that solar energy can even be used from growing crops. I only thought it was good for burning ants or holes in paper with a magnifying lens. Who knew the Sun could be so useful?
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
for $2000 you can do the enviroment far more good in less flashy ways. How about:
1: Donating the money to the Nature Conservatory (the best in the biz)
2: Investing in home technologies such as better insulation or solar water heat. If you already have those, save a few more years and get yourself a geothermal unit.
3: Use the money to buy vehicle carbon credits and/or green electricity.
Of course, merely owning a Prius means you are ignoring the better environmental alternatives out there. Owning a Prius means you want to show that you care about the environment - not that you really do. Unfortunately, you can't really show your well-insulated attic off to your friends and coworkers.
I'm with you here.
I live in the Wash., DC metro area right now, which has one of the best public transportation systems of any city in the US (your Federal tax dollars at work). It also has one of the worst traffic and parking problems I've ever seen -- although I've heard that Atlanta and LA are also as bad.
I have a 'reverse commute' -- I live in the city and work in the 'burbs, and although this doesn't eliminate the traffic completely (not even close), it does put me outside the worst of it. Getting into the office at 0700 and leaving by 1500 or so also helps.
By car, getting to the office takes me about 25-35 minutes for just about 15 miles, and if you write off my car as a sunk cost (and ignore the resale value, I'm not interested in giving it up as I use it for more than just commuting) the expense is wear-and-tear and gasoline. It averages 20MPG almost exactly and even if gas is $3.00/gal, the gasoline cost works out to about $4.50 a day. Not insignificant, but 40% less than the cost of the metro. Factoring wear-and-tear is tougher, but I'm sure it's less than 40% of my gas costs.
But the biggest deal for me is that my 35-minute commute becomes an almost 90-minute ordeal if I wanted to take public transportation. I've tried every combination of bus/rail that I can think of, peak and off-peak times, and it means almost an extra hour out of my day for each leg. I'm not willing to sacrifice that.
Public transportation would have to get a lot better, and gas would have to get a lot more expensive, for it to become a viable commuting option for me. As it is right now, my biggest use of public transportation is to go bar-hopping in the evenings, since it means not having to drive home afterwards. For that alone, it's great to have. And perhaps if I had the 'traditional commute,' of driving from the suburbs in the morning to the city during the day and back to the 'burbs at night, the time savings would be there. But there are a lot of people who would be willing to use public transportation if the time and money savings worked, and right now they just don't.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
but why does it matter if solar energy peeks into it's neighbor's windows? I've been doing that for years, and no one has mentioned anything about it to me.
It may not mess with the weather system, but it sure does mess with the wildlife in the area where you install these wind turbines.
They're WAY bigger on the inside than they look from the outside. The amount of space inside one of those cars is truly amazing.
I also like the whole Prius+ hack, which makes them even more useful.
+++ATH0
AFAICT, everywhere but the US diesel fuel is cheaper than petrol.
...this is. 62MW is being built in Portugal compared to the "supposed" worlds largest 18MW in Nevada.
No conventional public transport system can serve more than about 10% of the population, the physics just don't add up.
c -transport-cant-work.html
http://mrprecision.blogspot.com/2005/05/why-publi
Advocating conventional public transport as a car replacement is a waste of time.
Deleted
That's no frikin' moon!
-Dr. Evil
did you ever see those pics of henry ford bashing a plastic car made from soybean plastic with an ax? the ax bounces off the car, and it looks just like metal. and this was WAY back a long time ago. He also wanted to power engines with ethanol, saying gasoline was just too dirty.
Wow, you scared me there - you said solar energy was becoming more pervasive, and I was worried about a supernova or something. What a relief to find that solar energy is just as pervasive (and no MORE pervasive) than before - it's just that the USE of it is becoming more pervasive. :)
This space available.
Here's looking forward to cardboard SUVs made from bamboo fiber and hog spit!!
There's very little difference between a stock prius and a modded plug in prius, lotsa guys doing that now, and it is relatively easy to convert a gasoline engine to run on ethanol of have flex fuel capability.
The advantge of plugs in, or any car that runs off of electricity at least some times, is that you can partially solar power it, either from panels on the roof or panels at wherever it is parked for long durations. for example, your garage at home, it has panels on the roof, the juice goes to huge batteries, you get home and plug in your car to those. It's also, as pointed out, much better suited to stop and go city and commuting travel when there is no need whatsoever for ANY fuel engine to be turned on just to drive a few feet then stop, then lather rinse repeat. electric drive is where it is at for that situation, which is unfortunately all too common. Even a high MPG diesel motor still has to be sitting their idling while you stop and go and creep along.
Of course, to me, the ideal would be a biodiesel/plug in hybrid, best of all three worlds that way. I prefer diesels over gasoline engines from wearability standpoints. There's a reason the bulk of heavy equipment on the planet runs off of diesel and not gasoline. Most cars are throw aways, people don't really look at them as investments, because they aren't, whereas most heavy equipment is much more closlely scrutinized as to dollars to run cost, what it makes you back, hence, most equipment is diesel, it's just better quality, more durable.
And what happens to that electricity when you use it?
::shrug::
That's right, it dissipates as heat.
I'm sure you think your p3nis is larger than the next guy because you have a (cough) whopping 155bhp. (Still driving Mom's Chevette?)
But reality disagrees with you. Even a modest electric car could take that from the line. I have a converted Mazda 626 that can do a wheel stand.
And your 155hp toy? I don't think so Lucy.
How you didn't get modded flamebait, I'll never know. You're completly cluess.
BTW- I am braggin about the Mazda. I'll admit it. I didn't make it to be "green." Screw the trees. I made it to be the ultimate sucker car. I love roasting guys in thier mid-life crisis cars.
There is something just thrilling about taking a Porche from a red light in a 10 year old, 4 door Mazda.
BTW- My last gas powered rod did 720 rear wheel HP. The electic is quicker in the 1/8th mile and either of them could roast your 155hp toy in reverse.
Now THIS is flaimbait!
regarding AC on hybrids: The prius cannot run the AC compressor without running the internal combustion engine. In city driving this can HALF the fuel economy (~35mpg instead of ~70). This does not have to be the case for hybrids though. In a normal car, the compressor is driven by a belt connected to the crankshaft, which depends on the engine running. The other option is to have an electrical motor drive a compressor (it works for your refridgerator and home AC...) which would be completely independent of the drivetrain. It would require enough battery capacity to power the electric motor while the compressor is off, but most hybrids have /plenty/ of battery power.
Ask the folks in new orleans how nice it was to have public transit so they could evacuate. Oh wait, you can't ask them, because a lot of them ARE DEAD. No personal vehicle and in this nation anyway you are on your freekin own. Or ask anyone how they get that 6 foot tall potted plant home. Or, how do you snag a pile of 2"x4"s and some plywood for your weekend project? Oh wait, you can't. and etc.
Public transport is semi OK if all you have to carry is an iPod and a bookbag or briefcase,and have a normal 9 to 5 schedule, beyond that point it starts to suck rubber donkey balls. You can't even carry home a normal amount of groceries, you get stuck with having to shop about every other day or so. there goes all that convenience.
I know this because I took the train for years, it sucked, hated it. Then I realised it was still sucky having a vehicle in the big city,because all that does is let you see more of the crap and faster... so I moved out. Ahh, bliss!
Oh wait, what am I saying! Disregard that! Please, all you folks with socialised public transpo living in the high rise big cities-please stay there! Puh-lease, it's for your own good! Really, you won't like low crime and clean air and a bit of green space, it's terrible! Really, the "theater" and "starbucks" and wading through vomit outside of trendy "rave clubs" is your kind of "culture", you won't like owning your own vehicle and like having a garden or anything, buses and trains are MUCH cooler than being independent and coming and going as you please, after all, some bureaucrat planning manager knows MUCH BETTER than you what your schedule should be and where you need to live and where you need to be a good consumer for the corporation!
You assume that one solar panel kit is going to last 200,000 miles (or anywhere near that) without needing replacement. I don't know how much you drive, but it would take me 10 years to put that much on a car.
-matthew
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
So, if you move these pumps to Europe or Canada, they become more efficient?
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
The 04 and newer Prius have an electric A/C compressor, so the A/C will continue with the engine off. Heating is still majorly from the engine, and in the winter the engine will run more often to keep you warm (but it will still cycle off). (I say majorly because their is a small electric heater, but I have no idea when it is used or how useful it really is)
Insert wit here.
It would be quite easy to locally produce and reprocess glass bottles. Then you would only have to ship the liquids in abd bottle it locally.
As for local distribution, hmmmm. I'd deliver bottles to local stores on a bike truck.
A blog about stuff.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius
"In contrast, the 2004 model introduced an all-electric compressor for cooling. This allowed more extensive use of the "stealth mode" (operation on electric motor only)."
If the price of oil increases, then energy used in the manufacturing process will be obtained from other places due to the relative price differences. Solar and wind power are two such choices. Hell, even wood could be burned, if it was really necessary.
Even if solar power, etc., is prohibitively expensive now, it may someday become the cheapest source of energy. Thus it will be the source that is used.
So yes, it does take much energy to create glass. But someday that energy may be obtained from the sun, rather than from coal, purely for economic reasons.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
You make an interesting point though, and it really worries me particularly. I'm one of those guys who will probably never buy a new car. I will admit, I could probably afford one right now, but I guess I'm just too cheap. I just couldn't stand to take the loss on driving a new car off the lot. Most of the cars I buy are 5 - 8 years old and I usually get 100,000+ miles out of them. However, as soon as Hybrid's came out of really wanted to have one. But just as I would never buy a used car that will need an engine rebuild in a year, I would never want to buy a hybrid that's going to need a battery pack replacement.
/badpun
Hmm, maybe it doesn't pay to be cheap.
As of 2003, there were 111 million households in the US. And, as of 2002, 405 million acres of forest land, with another 402 million acres of unclassified Federal land.
:p
So, that's 3.6 acres of forest per household, with possibly another 3.6 including Federal lands. But, keep in mind, Federal land is more than just forest, including desert, and is usually sub-par. And a large portion of US forest remaining is in Alaska -- not exactly near high population areas.
This could all be moot, of course, since heating costs vary with climate. But, at the least, it means the northeast, with the highest population density and high heating costs, is screwed (so much for New England self-sufficiency). The south will soon become overpopulated. Alaska is still the best $7.2 mil we've ever spent. And the midwest will be doing fine with grass pellets instead of wood
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
People tend to have an overly optimistic expectation about what alternative energies in their current state can do.
I got a Solio solar-powered device recharger for Xmas. (http://www.solio.com/)
The thing is a piece of crap. Well, it's a neat bit of technology, fun to show off to friends, but otherwise it's essentially useless. First of all, the thing requires 8 hours in full sunlight to fully charge the internal battery. Secondly, the instruction manual insists that the unit be placed in direct sunlight, unobstructed by glass. This essentially means that for the thing to operate at full efficiency it needs to be sitting outside.
Another problem is that if you live in the higher latitudes not only do you have shorter days, but you get reduced sunlight. The thing is rendered useless. I had the thing sitting out all day when I got it and I don't think it even was able to charge the battery halfway.
The device comes with a plug so that you can charge it the traditional way, but of course this defeats the purpose of the device.
It's like the hybrids. Right now they're more of a fashion statement then anything, especially the Prius. Notice how that car is far outselling any of the other hybrids. Not because it's any better, but because it looks cooler. It looks like a hybrid whereas the Civic hybrid looks like any other Civic and the Ford Escape hybrid looks like even less like an alternative fuel vehicle.
If people really cared about fuel efficiency they'd be clamoring for 1.2 liter gasoline or diesel cars like those available in Europe that easily get 60+ mpg without all the complicated crap the hybrids have. Of course Americans, in particular, don't want to feel like they're driving an anemic economy car. Enter the hybrids which offer the thrust of a larger engine with somewhat improved economy. As usual we need to deal with the stupidity of the consumer who cares more about fashion and ego than they care about anything else.
Hybrids are essentially an elaborate hackjob, an interim step to a truly alternative fuel vehicle. They get their fuel savings partly from the near regenerative braking system, but mainly from the fact that they're equiped with a small gasoline engine. The goal in driving those cars is to keep the gasoline engine off as long as possible. In all the ferver regarding avoiding fossil fuel vehicles I think people have neglected how polluting batteries and many of those electrical components can be.
I'm all for exploring alternative fuels. And I think their use should be encouraged, and perhaps forced in some cases. But we also need to be a bit realistic. There are far more practical and more cost-efficient options available.
Sorry guys - the plural of Prius is still Prius (many Japaneese words are the same both singular and plural).
$ man woman *
-bash:
This is an idea I've had for years, and one that was even considered on a European level back in the early 90's. The idea was to pump sea water from the mediterranean to the sahara and use solar power, either through photovoltaic panels, or through a more robust sunlight focussing mirror farm.
The sahara is pretty big and provides plenty of unused area.
I think the idea was mainly dropped for political reasons back then in that it owuld be the same politically instable areas providing the hydrogen as now provide oil.
I'm sorry that it took me a few days!
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