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TRGpro

If you want to take a look at this thing. I'm not a palm user myself, but I'd look at this first. Compatibility rules.

Yeah, copy control sucks, but it's a fact of life that companies developing media these days are gonna do it

TRG (now HandEra) has been offering a Palm device (TRG Pro) for over a year now that has a compact flash slot, 8MB of ram, and 2mb of flash ram. It is the same form factor as the Palm III, which while not as slim as the PalmV series is still very portable. TRG also typically has OS updates available and ready to be flashed even before palm.

TRG has also been leading the pack in terms of software that does the necessary swapping behind the scenes to make the compact flash expansion appear to be transparently available to palm applications.

Bill (happy owner)...

If you want a Palm PDA that can read mem-cards now, check out the one from TRG-Pro (basically a PalmIIx with a CF slot).

Personally, I'm going to probably wait until my Palm IIIx bites the dust and then move to an iPaq or Jornada running Linux (they are way sweet) so I can understand your feelings. I keep trying to justify it to myself now, but until they stabalize more (heck, my desktop can last 2-3 years without feeling outdated, and I still use my model from 5 years ago without too much problems) I don't see anything wrong with what works.

I guess the springboard slot from Handspring and a Compact Flash slot on the Trgpro haven't crossed your desk yet. Yeah, they're innovating, kinda the way Microsoft does.

There is no trap so deadly as the trap you set for yourself

Why do they do this? Yup, chasing the buck with proprietary "innovations".

I have had a Palm IIIx (only 4Mb) for a year and a half. The last 6 months or better I have been salivating for a TRGPro. Same specs as the Palm IIIxe (8Mb ram) but with a compact flash slot on the back. It's form factor is identical to the III series except for a 1mm raised area on the back to make room for the CF slot. The speaker is louder and it can do multifrequency sound.

This thing is wonderful. I got a 16 Mb CF card for it for $40.00. The CFBackup software that comes with the Pro allows a one tap backup of your ram as a monolithic file (a la Ghost). The CFPro software allows you to transfer files back and forth from ram to CF, and AutoCF allows the PalmOS to directly access apps or databases on the CF card transparently as if they were in the memory.

My next purchase is a USB CF card reader which I will plug into my old PowerMac 7600 and be able to transfer files directly to the CF card without having to sync them through the PalmOS (necessary for .wav files which the HotSync won't transfer, but the Pro will play if they're on the CF card.)

The CF card uses DOS file structure and naming conventions (restrictions?) but I can live with that.

In addition to memory, the Pro is compatible with CF cards that provide modems, bar code wands, and even IBM's 1Gb Microdrive ($459, so I don't think I'll be getting one, but it's nice to know it can be done.) No GPS yet, but I'm sure someone will do it.

I didn't buy my Pro until I saw it in the local Sam's Club for $249. TRG's site had them at $329 forever, they have now dropped to $299.

In short, there is another option from the memory sticks, Springboards, etc.

I recommend the TRGPro highly.

What's a simple way to keep one's PGP key on removable media?

CF is what I'm thinking of - I've got a TRGPro, and I'd like to keep my PGP key on it's CF card, to use on my desktop system with a SanDisk reader, but it should equally apply to this new toy.

Even the Palm OS platform has had CompactFlash expansion for years now. Check out the TRGPro.

This is possible, I believe, with the TrgPro version of the Palm. It uses a Compact Flash port for various accessories, leaving the serial port available for use with the keyboard. Using the CF modem or network adaptor with a keyboard should fit your bill.

• You can make your Palm application quite tamperproof by burning the app into flash ROM and disabling the software installation conduits.
• PalmOS is essentially a clone of MacOS anno 1990. People who programmed the Apple Mac back in the early nineties will understand the PalmOS very quickly.
• Sybase has a product named UltraLite (part of SQL Anywhere Studio), which is a very small embedded SQL server for PDAs. You can replicate to/from any ODBC-compliant master data source over several different protocols. UltraLite also supports WinCE and several other platforms. I've used UL on Palm for some months now and it does have some bugs, but it will probably be sufficiently robust by next summer.

It uses Compact Flash technology on a modified Palm IIIx platform. I think you can even get one of those IBM microDrives in a CF card....

I agree, but at the same time, I think handspring's decision to use their "springboard" format was rather silly. The TRGPro does the smae kind of thing, but with a CF slot - which is much more of an industry standard than the springboard slot. I seem to recall reading somewhere that springboard is actually the same interface as a current format (someone want to help me out here?), but the moduels still have to be specially shaped for the springboard slot.

Compactflash is only really suitable for storage devices, mostly memory. Using it for anything else is cumbersome.

Springboard is more of a traditional bus, and it is easier and cheaper to use it for general expansion.

One suspects that TRG already had the CF hardware designed and merely grafted it onto palmpilot because they were seeking direction, but one could be wrong.

On a technical note, WRT the springboard bus:
"There is only one bus on the system - the Dragonball bus and both Dragonball RAM and Springboard ROM are attached to this same bus. So, transferring the application to the inside memory will not change much. "

I hope this clears up your question.

I just wanted to point out that the TRGpro available from TRG Corporation does the same sort of thing, but uses a CompactFlash card instead, thereby supporting that standard. (This also means you could use an IBM 340MB Microdrive in the thing, if you like your batteries to be depleted every two or three days!) The TRGpro also contains CFPro, which (unlike this Sony unit) DOES let you run apps off of external memory (provided they are read-only and use read-only databases; inline write support isn't possible yet).

In addition, The TRGpro boasts a true speaker instead of the Palm's piezo buzzer, and Benchmark puts my unit at 160% the speed of a Palm IIIx/Palm V. Sure, it's modeled after a Palm III (actually, it's the exact same casing), and it's a bit more expensive than a IIIxe, but the screen is more like Palm V quality (no streaking, and support for 4-bit grayscale with OS 3.5). All around, it hasn't disappointed me yet.

GSL

I own a Visor, and I like the expandability provided by the Springboard modules, but I admire TRGPro for using the industry standard CompactFlash interface (just think, you could add the new IBM 1GB CompactFlash hard drive to your palm device).

I agree, but at the same time, I think handspring's decision to use their "springboard" format was rather silly. The TRGPro does the smae kind of thing, but with a CF slot - which is much more of an industry standard than the springboard slot. I seem to recall reading somewhere that springboard is actually the same interface as a current format (someone want to help me out here?), but the moduels still have to be specially shaped for the springboard slot.
Anyway, I think Sony put the memory stick on the Clie because a) they can, and b) they need something to set it apart even more from existing handhelds. Otherwise it's just YAPDIANC (yet another palm device in a nifty case).
-J

Well, this is a duplicate post but the TRGpro got that part right. You can put an IBM microdrive in it.

I wasn't always so please with my TRGpro; it came with the now-infamous DRAM bug that lost data... But with an OS upgrade, that appears to have been fixed, and I love being able to back up my palm pilot any time without even having to be near a computer. :-)

It actually represents one of the "better" of the ways of running Linux on a handheld; TRG describes this... The original way of booting Linux on a PalmPilot required that you have a TRG memory board in your PalmPilot.

The more important overreaching point here, to stay on topic with this being an alternative to iPAQ, is that I don't yet see that there is a set of PIM software to make the "Linux-running" palm-held machines useful.

For instance, the iPAQ appears to require that you hook it up to something that pretends to be a "dumb terminal," or that you can control everything using pre-programmed apps that use the onboard buttons. In other words, if an application needs a keyboard, you're left "grasping" for that.

There isn't perfectly suitable Linux software to run on PDAs for the PIM needs of:

• Calendar
• Phone list
• To Do list
• Note pad

Found this link on the discussion about the new Palm VIIx. This is one bad ass piece of hardware. How's a Pilot with a 1GB microdrive do you for storage? : ) TRG Pro

www.trgpro.com ... enough said, almost.

Wider IR port, better sound, CF slot, 8mb memory plus 2megs of flash default, ability to run apps off a CF flash card (340mb IBM micro-drive anyone?), ability to store & run apps in flash. Reasonably priced... you get what you pay for.

Ok, that's enough.

• There are very few things that Springboard modules can do that software can't. And if you want removable storage, nothing can beat a TRGpro, which is like a Palm IIIxe with a CF slot. A camera is also available for Palm devices.
• The speedup of the HotSync time by using USB instead of serial is negligible. My serial sync takes about 1.5 minutes, downloading of four fairly large AvantGo channels over dialup included. On the other hand, USB synchronizing is not supported under Windows 2000, and may be flakey elsewhere. The serial cradles are extra.
• The case is pretty, but also a bit thicker and bulkier. The cover isn't attached to the unit, which isn't very convenient at all.

I just fail to see any advantage to buying a Visor for the same price as a similar Palm.

--

Another nice thing about CF is that it's electrically compatible with PCMCIA; you buy a cheap ($10) adapter, and your CF+ modem (or flash memory) will also work with a standard laptop.

According to them, it's DRAM. And in a self-refresh mode, it should be able to maintain its contents for a minute at a time. Check out the info provided by TRG for a more complete description of what is going on.
_____

TRGpro has an explanation available: http://www.trgpro.com/support/faq_dram. html
There's a echnical Description" about half way down the page.

TRGpro has an explanation available: http://www.trgpro.com/support/faq_dram. html
There's a echnical Description" about half way down the page.

(since nobody else notices me, I better reply myself...)

There's also a pretty good explanation of the fix at TRG's site. http://www.trgpro.com/support/faq_dram. html M.

For us using TRGpro, the update is already available. It also contains the ability to run directly from Flash as well as OS 3.5.1.

For us using TRGpro, the update is already available. It also contains the ability to run directly from Flash as well as OS 3.5.1.

to the fellow who was sorry he chose Handspring over Palm because he was stuck with a faulty DRAM: The IIIxe has DRAM too. You're right in saying that the Handspring units have no Flash, but thats an unrelated issue. Both have DRAM for the system memory/storage. The Palm units (most) have Flash memory where the OS is stored. This allows for OS upgrades and such. The handspring units don't have this, which makes OS upgrading a bit harder.

As for the bug and why it was corrected with a software patch, you can get all teh details (including the technical version) here. The technical faq is near the bottom of the page. They just changed the mode that the DRAM is in during refresh, since one of the refresh modes did A Bad Thing[tm].
-Hal

Check out these details about the memory problem from the TRGpro website, a maker of another Palm-OS PDA. They have a FAQ explaining in pretty good detail what the problem is and how they plan to go about fixing it.

I know that the 340 meg IBM Microdriver is in use in TRGPro Palm-clones. Here's the page: http://www.trgpro.com. Notice right under the gray bar they have a photo of a PalmOS device with 340 megs of storage. That's really something. But blowing the 1-gig barrier is way-cool. With 1-gig drives you can now store fairly massive databases in a PDA. I can imagine this is very useful within some companies. I know I'd be impressed if I were talking to a company's big cheese asking him some obscure detail about the company, and he pulls out a PDA and checks his database. That would be cool.

Way to go IBM!

And that brings me to my point: it's wonderful that IBM has a microdrive like this, and it speaks volumes for miniaturization and where technology is headed. But what is the expected use for most people today? Not much. At $500, this is way out of range of all but a few consumers. (Heck, it would cost more than the TRGPro itself!) At present perhaps the best feature of the 1GB microdrive is to drive down the price of the 340MB microdrive so people can buy them instead.
--

Just curious, would any of the midi-based solutions be capable of playing back using the speaker on a TRGPro? It's a clone that licenses the PalmOS (Kind of like the Handspring Visor), but it claims to have some nifty extras, including "enhanced audio".

It also comes with a slot for compact flash cards. Hmmm... TRGPro + 340MB IBM Microdrive + Dragonball processor + "Enhanced Audio"... mp3s?

CompactFlash is much easier to handle than SmartMedia... I'm the kind of person that scratches CDs easily, and I'd be scared to have those (relatively) delicate SmartMedia cards. Can anyone here adapt this hack ("hack this hack"?) to be able to use CompactFlash? Plus, there are more applications for CompactFlash (The TRGPro for example) that would offset the cost of an IBM MicroDrive.

Could this control a Hard drive as well? It'd be nice to be able to make your own EMPEG type device.. Throw on your own LCD and one of these monsters and you're set. 75 Gigs of MP3 storage. Is there a better way to do this than with these schematics?

PalmOS has been licensed for use in such devices as the HandSpring Visor, TRGPro, and others. Furthermore, you can run ucLinux on it.

With many WinCE devices, developers had to produce multiple versions of the same program to cope with different devices' displays, controls, and processors. Hardly an open standard.

While you're scrawling commands at a prompt or waiting as X groks away the last of your memory and rejoicing "Hooray for Open Source!" the Palm users will be -- get ready now -- using their PDA's for productive use.

I'm curious what people like these days as a desktop replacement type laptop

If I want smooth, detailed 3D stuff I have a Sony Playstation on top of my TV (with a pair of IR remote controls).

As it happens, I'm probably going to be considering a Sony sub-notebook or a Toshiba Libretto for my next primary PC. We'll see how my TRGpro performs when it arrives next month...

Well, there's the TRGpro, a Palm III with a CF slot. It has .wav out, but it lacks a headphone jack. =(

Plus, I don't have any Minidisc disks. Say I own a different MP3 player that has a CompactFlash slot. I could move around CompactFlash cards between my digital camera, and my TRGPro.

Minidiscs haven't ever been a big technology in the United States, and they'll be pretty much overlooked by the majority of the population.

Just add a CompactFlash slot ah-la TRGpro. I've ordered a TRGpro (should arrive in about a month), now I'm just waiting for a Bluetooth CF card and TRGpro drivers for it...

Check out the TRG Pro. It has a CF slot and supports the IBM Microdrive. It looks pretty cool to me.

Back on topic, I read the article, and I didn't see anything to say what differentiates a iPalm vs. a 3Com Palm.

Besides the fruity colors (pun intended) which everyone expects, what will be in this iPalm to make it worth buying? Apple is great at design, but the Palm V series is great as it is. What would make me buy a iPalm over a regular Palm, if they were the same price?

As I have said before, complexity is like a liquid, non-compressable. All those gimmicks would be fun toys, but my palm is forever attached to my hip because it stays out of my way and does what I need when I need it, not because it is the uber-geek-toy-kitchen-sink-device (although with my modem, a vt100 emulator, and a shell account I HAVE run emacs on a Palm Professional...).

If I want an MP3 player (which actually, come to think of it, I do) I will go pick up a diamond Rio, or similiar device. It is more portable, more durable, more flexible, and less expensive then adding all that capability to my PDA.

That being said, I just ordered a trg pro for $329, and this device includes an upgraded speaker (so the palm can finally dial for me) and a compact flash slot.

This means that you can now spend $600 to add a 340mb IBM microdrive to your palm pilot, if you were so inclined. On the less silly end of the spectrum, you can add a 32MB cf card for about $70, which is a more reasonable price point for a palm, and 32MB will store an AWFUL lot of palm data...

Actually, now that I think about it, the one thing I would like to be portable is the compact flash media. It would be nice to be able to swap these things between my laptop, digital camera, MP3 player, and TRGPro Palm OS device depending on my needs at the moment... (that is, once I can afford a laptop, digital camera, and mp3 player :)

Bill Kilgallon

As good as this news seems, I have to wonder where the Palm platform is headed in terms of expandability. I just ordered a Visor Deluxe with the Springboard expansion slot to replace my Palm III. Then along comes the TRGPro with Compact Flash. Now we've got Sony (PalmMan?) with the memory stick.

That's three, count 'em three, incompatible standards for one computing platform. The Springboard module is bigger than CF so you can make a CF to Springboard adapter.

But what about the memory stick? Granted its supposed to be as small as a stick of gum. So you could probably squeeze it onto the same device as a Springboard or CF slot but we're talking about a device that's the size of a deck of cards here. There just isn't much room for expansion slots.

So you're going to have the situation where one technology will catch on and the others will fall by the wayside. If you bet on the wrong one, you wind up with a hand held Beta VCR. That's a bit of an exageration since you could still use the device as an organizer and handheld computer, just like the Palm Pilot. And it will still run rings aroung WinCE in terms of usability.

I would guess that the memory stick will die out as a technology. It only seems good enough for, well memory while CF and the Springboard are much more versatile.

Look at the TRGpro site where they have a page detailing why they went with CF instead of any of the other removable data/peripheral slots available. The basic problems with SmartMedia are: - it is ONLY usable for memory - it puts all of the i/o logic burden on the host device. - as it is basically a single flash chip in a fancy wrapper, it is limited to the maximum available size of flash chips. CF can be used for i/o peripherals as well as memory, it has a built in FAT file system on the card meaning that devices see it as a removable hard drive and you can stack multiple flash chips into a single card. Pretec are selling a 160MB CF card now and will have a 320MB card available early Q1 2000.