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Apple to release PalmOS device?
Kris_J writes "The Register says that "Apple-branded PalmOS-based device have already started coming off Taiwanese production lines". The Newton is dead, long live the PalmOS." It will be interesting to see that if this pans out, how much Newton technology will end up in this PDA. Towards the end, the handwriting recognition on the MessagePad was quite good, even if the unit itself was quite bulky. Who knows, maybe iPalm? :)
They're wonderful. EPOC32 is one of the best OSes around today. And, since they have keyboards, they make fine dumb terminals for when your prerelease X server crashes...
www.psion.com
Overengineered wasn't the problem. The problem was that they only made 1 unit at a time. They should have made a smaller form-size. I will say that I've used almost every single "extra" feature. I actually use the web server from time to time on our LAN, as well as using it to network print, etc, etc. When people ask me what it is, I tell 'em it's my laptop (since it basically is). The one thing I still resent Steve for was killing it after they spun it off. Oh well. You can still buy them on ebay, and (trust me) they're much better than a Pilot. (and you'll never see any innovations on the Pilot from Apple; none of the true Newt people are there; they moved on to work on Wince and the Pilot)
No, so far it's noPalm, or should it be naPalm (a nasty surprise)?
I bought one to develop some apps, but found after it need visual C++ *and* NT.
s _kit.asp).
:(
I wish psion had GNU-like develoment tools, like handspring visor.
(http://www.handspring.com/developers/developer
Until then I'll use it just for reading html...
i forget why... perhaps it was just that when he came back to Apple there was so much waste and a really frag'd product line. but anyway, he called the newton's "scribble toys" or something. because of this i don't think you'd have to worry about a MacOS handheld or another Newton. but Apple and Steve and Crew are cool when it comes to the consumer devices. i think they'll let Palm develop and just key in to make sure it works better with mac os... and yes, maybe sell "flavored ones" for mac users. but if this is something for everybody... then i'm sure we'll see silver or graphite or something...
In fact, you can buy a USB cradle from Palm. Lord knows I'm considering it.
that's right....iCrap
If you want the transparent look, get a IIIx and put it one of the transparent color cases that people are selling. palmcolors.com just released a graphite colored case to match the latest iMac! There are at least two retailers that I know of selling translucent color PalmIII series cases.
Let's look at this from the Palm perspective:
1) Possibly. Grafitti is more of an alternative keyboard than a handwriting recognition system.
2) A better UI metaphor: don't know iMates, but the Palm one isn't bad. At least it's not WINCE!
3) What widgets do you need that the Palm hasn't got (I'm not being sarcastic, I really want to know). In PalmOS 3.5 they're coming out with graphic buttons and gadgets plus a progress bar.
4) This is already in Palm's future - the Nokia deal includes a StrongARM port - maybe Apple's involved...
5) I'm not sold on speech on these things yet. I don't mind using it as a cell phone, but I'm not sure what the application interactions will be like. Stupid applications can kill a great speech interface, and Sturgeon's Law will probably rule here...
6) Quicktime would be cool, but the device needs either (a) better network access/performance and/or (b) storage space.
7) TCP/IP: I saw a presentation on a complete/compliant TCP/IP implementation in 256 BYTES (not KBytes or MBytes). It was cool, and beats both Apple and Palm.
8) Color: Palm has added color support in OS 3.5. There are rumors that they'll release a color device in Feb (the IIIc?). Although they're leveraging the new Motorola Dragonball w/ color support (256 colors), I'm sure that they're thinking other devices, too. Apple might be able to help here.
The Newton was cool, it's gone (due to it coming out before it and the market was ready, IMHO), but in a good way I'm sure we haven't heard the last of it.
It's worth pointing out that this limitation was removed once AmigaOS went to 68020 and above with the 2.0 OS release - i.e. all amigas after the (crap) A600.
You say "Intel quite clearly owns the StrongARM processor technology". This isn't true. Intel is a licensor of the StrongARM technology, as are a number of other companies. Check out ARM's website for more details.
The source code is in a .zip file in the SDK. I haven't convinced it to compile EPOC32 apps on linux yet though - idiotically, all the EPOC32 OS header file name references are set up for a case-insensitive filesystem, which, of course, breaks on linux - and it's a bitch to track down all the incorrect case filenames, and every reference to them in the includes. It's a shame because other than that, the includes are really beautiful, reminiscent of the extremely well-written AmigaOS includes, only for very clean C++ instead of C. Since I can't even get an EPOC32 app to compile as far as object code, I don't know if there will be linking issues too.
Well, the domain name is taken already.
PalmOS is stripped down newton (from users view).
It was just implemented native on 68K ColdFusion microprocessor and voila!
Want to see future of Palm - look at newton 2000, it will be just a little bit smaller.
oh yeah, that's right. that's what I always do at meetings anyway... drink coffee while the man talks about how the company got started and all that...
But I'll bet this meeting is different. There's noone new this time, so we might get right down to business... or something.
I hope it's a fun meeting...
yeah i hope there is something worthwhile that comes out of this meeting. but you can't complain, i mean, we get paid to drink coffee, it's a dream come true. i just wish i had my palm Vx, (hey! i just got on topic!) then i could take notes and stuff w/ it at the meeting and look really kewl.
There's an article over at Daily Radar discussing Sony's PDA for the Playstation 2. They're apparently working with 3Com on it, although the article stops short of saying it will have all the functionality of a PalmPilot device.
Anybody heard any rumors along these lines?
The major reason would probably be the power drain imposed by most USB hardware on the host system. YES, I KNOW there are passive devices as well, but incorporating such a port would open the door for that type of problem. Not to mention that serial controller chips are likely quite a bit cheaper and easier to source than USB equivalents, when designing the palm hardware.
Kinda makes you wonder what number they're gonna go with next. VIII? Looks too much like VII to me. IX? Or will people confuse that with XI? Maybe they'll skip right to X. (Or will that be confused with the Vx?)
Better yet, if I were them, I'd stop with the Roman numeral format. Intel did a wonderful thing (from a marketing point of view, that is...) when they called the 586 a Pentium. And Apple started to realize that the iMac is so much more "friendly" than the Mac LCiii.
If I were one of the big guys at Palm Computing, I'd start thinking about cooler names for their handhelds.
Of course, if I were one of the big guys at Palm Computing, I'd probably retire and be drinking pina coladas in Borneo, so maybe you shouldn't listen to what I have to say...
I do not know how people here automatically believe anything that is posted as news. In case you didn't know, 'news' websites post things like this for one purpose; money... hits = $'s and juicy rumors keep visitors coming back. A, well, exactly similar rumor was posted last April Fools day, and well it is still a rumor. I ask you to look at the validity of the source before getting all excited about some iPalms, or whatever the subject might be. 'NEWS for nerds?' Hmm in this case, no. I renounce my subscription and am completely disgusted. Heh just kidding about the last part. Thankyou
An Apple-Palm partnership might finally be able to build (and market) a useful bridge device between true handhelds and notebooks. Kind of like the WinCE 2.0 devices on the market now, that seem to have little marketshare or respect. Thw WinCE2 devices, whether sub-sub-notebook designs, or big fat, overgrown color Palm-knockoffs, are all pretty lame. But they could be great if they (1) had a decent OS, (2) had decent battery life.
Take the Palm OS, put it on an Apple-designed machine that's either a souped up Palm VI, with expansion port a la Visor and a larger screen, or one that's got a keyboard, instant-on, etc. (like the eMate or an iBook shrunk to eMate size, price, etc.) Both the N2K and the eMate had their advantages, although both were somewhat flawed in the execution. (Well, OK, the N2K was absolutely great, mostly it was just its marketing that sucked.)
A Palm-Apple sub-sub-notebook could be great. Solid state storage is now both pretty standardized and pretty cheap (e.g. SmartMedia/CompactFlash). Use IR or Apple's Airport for networking/syncing. Oh, and just to be sure that corporate folks can justify the expense, be sure to figure out a PalmOS add-on so that you can grab standards MS Word/Excel, etc. files and use them on the new device.
i think you're right, this thread needs moderated WAY up man! we rock. palm devices rock.
Yes, the apple handheld has plans to use a modified airport card for wireless hotsyncs and web browsing.
My eMate is the ultimate computer, for all of the reasons you just listed. It's functional and practical in a way that the silly Palm devices just can't touch. It has all of the advantages of a small, light, energy conserving device which does all of the important tasks of a laptop. I like to think of it as the ultimate proletarian computer.
Why would they do this considering the palm os -- the default one -- even with out hacks -- is one of the better os's ever. ?
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
The number VI is apparently not used because it clashes with a naughty word in English.
So they considered calling it the PalmEmacs then?
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
That can only be good news. Palm software being given with MacOS for users with Macs. Will palm still support It's own branded products for MacOS, or will Palm owners need to upgrade to Apple's branded ones ....
none Yet.
iCrap! That so funny! I get it!
You understand that, yes? - great news for the Mac community though that's had to suffer with less than ok software to connect their Macs to their Palms
I'd much rather see Sony get with the program - those guys can build solid reliable stuff!
While I agree from the user interface point of view, from a programmer's point of view I'd have to say that the PalmOS is pretty crude, especially when compared to what Apple was trying to do with the Newton OS.
In short, programming for the Palm is an awful lot like programming for the Mac, circa 1984. While the database driven storage is pretty nifty, the actual API is very basic; memory management is a joke. Contrast that against the Newton, where you had a complete object oriented environment, garbage collection, full access to internal objects, etc. etc.
Of course, you had to learn a new language to program the Newton (derived from Pascal, of all things), the tools were expensive and only available from Apple, blah blah blah. All in all, the Palm group probably made the right choice, though a pretty basic one.
A roll up screen would probably work pretty well. ( something like the "globals" on Earth Final Conflict)
Also what about 2 palm sized displays with a hinge in the middle that fold together when you are done.
My favorite idea however, is a palm type device the that works like the present ones do when you are holding it in one hand but that unfolds to reveal a small keybord when you are sitting at a table or on a plane. You could then just plug your Sony "Movie Man" (R) sunglasses with the built in heads up display into the jack on the top and be able to work as if you were using a laptop.
Every wrong attempt discarded is a step forward - T. Edison
They've got a cradle out already that connects to a USB port.
Or do you want the USB port on the Palm itself? I can think of reasons why the conventional serial port was a better choice when the Palms came out (USB wasn't really there yet at the time, plus you can't telnet in on a USB port, can you?). Plus, it would be instantly incompatible with all of the existing gear for palm.
FYI, there's also work going on on a cradle that hooks up to your network via Ethernet. Now THAT'S a fast sync!
Jon
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
There are plenty of Free software writers for the PalmOS out there. You can start by looking at my page at http://blevins.simplenet.com/palm/ for a list of GPL'd Palm software.
Also, try searching for "Pyrite" and "JPilot" on freshmeat for some nice desktop-side software.
I used to have hope for www.openhandheld.org, but that has been dead for a year. Maybe somebody would like to host a similar site?
-Mitch
The Rev A and Rev B iMacs (the non-fruity ones) did indeed have an IR port. The Rev C and since (the fruity ones) do not.
most definately NOT OWNED BY INTEL
intel took over the manufacture of ARM chips for DEC but then found it did not have a licence UH OH ARM rubs its hands in glee "those NICS are very fast oh and you use what and you havnt payed well what can I do for you ? "
ARM made a packet and TI are affraid of INTEL in the DSP market so have shiped lots and lots of are cores several billion last time I heard (hmm how many PIII cores shiped ? )
regards
john
a poor student @ bournemouth uni in the UK (a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
apple invested in ARM to make the newton
plam OS say that they can port it but I doubt it
ARM arch is very nice open you can get it from lots of vendors and has the DSP market hell buy a NIC and it has an ARM in it 3COM intel DEC/Compaq and the rest all use ARM for the NICs
and dont forget netwinder or psions
nope Ill wait till apple wakes up again and uses a proc which doesnt eat betterys
regards
john
a poor student @ bournemouth uni in the UK (a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
Keep in mind, you may not be the intended audience. The vast majority of Slashdotters found the style & colors of the iBook to be quite toilet-seat like, and generally disliked it. Nevertheless, the iBook is selling quite well.
The style of the iPalm is dependant on whom Apple views as its intended audience.
considering a handspring module that connects to airport (uses the same wireless protocol anyhow) was just announced.. you're not too far off..
:)
wireless hotsync between a pda and a new imac would be just the spiffiest thing ever. sync from anywhere in the house
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
Apple did designed and developed the newton UI, which is totally touch screen controled, and I still think it's by far one of the best UI ever.
Incidentally, this is the reason why Nokia has no cell phones starting with the digit 4 - all other digits are covered (except for 0, of course ;)
The Visor is true USB, end-to-end. Hence HotSyncing goes much faster than on Palm Computing's devices, which use a serial->USB converter, effectively slowing down communcations to serial's 115kbps speed.
Don't forget another bad side of the Palm V/Vx series: the battery. The early V units already have their li-ion batteries going dead, and not only they're not covered by the warranty but the units are also very difficult to open/fix/seal (the 2 half-shells are glued).
I'm very happy with my IIIx unit which shall never have this kind of problems... At least a month autonomy on 2 ultra-standard AAA batteries is, IMHO, the best system ever. I guess that's why the Visor uses the same system, and also a reason I'd love to have one the day I'll get full USB support with Linux...
Max
-- It's always darker before it goes pitch black.
Also, many people who don't know about Newtons describe mine as 'much better than a Pilot' and are very surprised when I reveal it was made several years ago and is a relic in computing terms.
A PDA with a screen size of the MP2000 screen and a case only slightly bigger would be lovely. Keep the notepad metaphor as well, rather than messing about trying to be a desktop-type interface.
making it somewhat useless, as Linux doesn't support USB yet.
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
Although this would be "just dreamy" I don't expect to see anything similar to the Newton again.
It was the from ground up well designed NewtonOS (not cloned and put at inappropriate hardware) with good applications and tightly integrated handwriting recognition that make the fascination of Newton. Today the developers are spread over different companies and documentation is lost. I believe it is not possible nor clever to implant parts of the Newton technology into another devices.
I'm using my MP2000 for nearly 3 years now, and hope he will not get broken, at least so long until something better will appear. It was mentioned, that the Newton was ahead of the time, for how many years he was ahead, will then turn out.
The Dragonball processor has no MMU. And only has an execution space of about 64K (the max you'll have at any one time is 56K). Yes, the Dragonball has *access* to more memory for storage, etc. but not for actually program execution.
That's not really any different from the original 68000 - the 64k limit (actually, it's a +/- 32k limit) comes from wanting your binaries to be relocatable: They have to use relative addressing instead of absolute, and the 68k instruction set uses 16 bits for relative addressing.
The same restriction existed on Commodore Amigas and Atari STs, etc.. The Amiga OS binary file format handled this by requiring that no function be larger than one 32k chunk, and using jump tables to map calls and accesses between chunks. The jump tables were recalculated by the program loader each time the program was read from disk. This was completely hidden from the programmer and user - if they didn't care to look, it seemed to them as if they could write programs as large as the Amiga's memory space.
Because this was a performance hit, careful programmers made sure frequently called functions ended up in the same chunk as the functions that called them. It also lent itself to software-based virtual memory since chunks were ready made for swapping in and out of memory.
--
Clear, Dark Skies
Doesn't the Handspring Visor already define what an iPalm would be? It's cheap, talks USB and comes in 6 "trendy" colors. Who could ask for anything more? I love mine, and I saved a lot of money.
--Evan
Personally I find the newton 2100 to be an extremely usable hand held platform. I can read docs, except pdf--Ouch!, in any light, it has excellent battery usage. It can do things that can't be done nicely in the palm form factor, like act as a notebook. I would much rather see a device as large as a standard notebook as thin as a newt with the ability to read all sorts of documentation including html, email and even .docs. As well as include all the functionality of the newton platform, unlike the sharp platforms or the electronic books. A wireless, keyboardless workstation if you will. Wouldn't it be nice to write "ls -las" at a bash prompt while sitting in your ez chair with no cords at all.
I have an Apple Message Pad 120 and I have used a few Palmpilots.
:)
I have my MP120 set to printing as opposed to cursive recognition, and customized to my style. It works about 98% of the time, and when it fails I can just double click the word and usually choose the correct word from a pop up list.
The MP was hyped and marketed far far too soon, by apple. Well before it was usable. As a result, bad press and stories did far too much damage to what was to become probably the best PDA so far.
When I first saw it at an Apple launch, the Apple guy wrote "Hello, my name is Frank." and the MP converted this into "Hello any name is failure".
I hope they make a proper PDA without the alien writing in a box limits.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
Microsoft owns the "PC" concept? Funny, I remember when IBM owned the "PC" concept and everything else was just a clone.
What I would really be interested to see, should this turn out to be true, is if Apple would continue with their strategy of one model for consumers and one model for professionals.
If so, apart from whatever innovation they put into the machines, it could mean dirt cheap palmtop computing for the masses.
It has often been speculated that Apple would bundle an Apple branded handheld with iMacs and iBooks, and possible with Powerbooks and G4s too. If this does all turn out to be true I can't wait to see that happen.
--- Apparently I have an old
Strange that Apple chooses to make Palm devices now that color Palms are around the corner.
;-)
Or are they color Palms already?
Wonder what the new "Aqua" user-interface looks like on my next Color-Palm device..
Well.. in the case of iCEO it meant 'interim'...
;-)
But with the release of iTools and such we're pretty much sure Apple has jumped on the internet bandwagon...
BTW, the name iPalm is already taken... so let's guess again...
The Dragonball processor has no MMU. And only has an execution space of about 64K (the max you'll have at any one time is 56K). Yes, the Dragonball has *access* to more memory for storage, etc. but not for actually program execution.
:)
Think Z80 programming with a Motorola 68000 instruction set and you'll have an idea of what the Dragonball is like...
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
If you want that transparent look, it'd be worth looking for the Special Edition of the Palm IIIe, which has a transparent case! same spec as the regular IIIe, and you can likely find a good deal on it now the V is getting widespread.
You can find a link to it on Palm Central here, or another link with a better picture here.
I wonder about the memory sizes... people are going on about the IIIx and the Vx as essential as they have 4M and 8M ram respectively, as opposed to the basic III and V which only have 2M... personally i have a IIIx, have put a ton of programs on there, use almost all its features, and have put 600K worth of books (about 5 books)on it with CSpotRun, and have still only used just over 1M on it! Has anyone actually filled up a IIIx or Vx with stuff?
Fross
Knowing Apple, it seems that they would do something different with the case design. I can't see them releasing a PalmOS device with the "traditional" case design with an Apple logo on it.
Better USB support is probably a given.
There a couple of more "opportunities" in the very near future: WWDC (World Wide Developer Conference) in May, Seybold in February, etc. But you are correct, the recent MacWorld Expo would have been the perfect place for an announcement like this. Of course, they could always have a "Special Event" similar to the one they had when announcing the "original" G3s back in 1997.
Maybe even more interesting would be a well financed attempt by Apple to "hijack" the universally-used term for a PDA from BIC. I don't know of anyone who doesn't refer to his/her Palm PDA as a "Pilot"! How 'bout an Apple Pilot?
I know that this is probably a silly question, but I REALLY have to know. Being as how this isn't terribly offtopic, I would be very appreciative if someone would answer me this:
There are Palm IIIs, Palm Vs, and Palm VIIs. Are there others (besides the slew of variants of these numbers), and why is Palm skipping numbers?
---
rJames.org - illustration
A lawsuit isn't about what is right...its about what you can convice a judge to believe. If you can get him/her to agree the sky is pink, its pink.
To that end, carrot and stick
Stick: If you release printed handwriting on a palm, we will sue you for taking our trade secrets. You will be forced to show EVERY line of code, to be sure none of our code (which left in the heads) of your new Palm/ex Netwon employees.
[Hint: How many programmers have copywrited code from the last job sill in hard copy/on tape/on CD ROM laying about/in a directory at home/at the new place of employ?]
Carrot: Let us cross-licence the handwriting and the rest of our PDA technology portfolio. Oh, and we get palm OS rights cheap.
Apple has a stick they can swing. And in swinging the stick, they can do damage. Both parties get damaged, but its a threat that can be made.
Which way would *YOU* take?
[The rumor is the ex-newton people have shown off write anywhere on the screen/printed handwriting style palms to management. Clearing any lawsuit issues from past employers (Apple) would go along way to making said technology aviab. to the consumer.]
And with the graffiti authors off doing something else, keeping graffiti as the default/only method isn't the political problem it once was.
*IF* Apple makes its version of the Palm with Graffiti/rosetta, and it becomes the popular version, Palm will do the same under whatever terms it works out with Apple/others.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
Beat up martin was the clip I remember.
You forgot:
Apple/Dragon systems had software that would actually understand 20 some words. (numbers mainly)
So you didn't need a keyboard OR stylus....you just talked to the newt.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
Check out the TRG Pro. It has a CF slot and supports the IBM Microdrive. It looks pretty cool to me.
-- Freedom means letting other people do things you don't like.
Not quite. AFAIK the Palm devices use Dragonball, which although based on the 68K architecture is certainly not "the same chip" as say the 68030 used in the LCII. But it is quite true that Apple have (old) experience with this architecture and so you never know what might happen.
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
One little thing worries me (well I'm not sure if it actually worries me as such, but it's interesting).
3com should be careful that the "Palm" brand doesn't get hijacked by Apple, even accidently. In the hands of users brands get very confused, for instance most users would be hard pushed to differentiate between "a PC" and "a Windows PC". Microsoft owns the whole "PC" concept by default. A few people will recognise a Mac as different, maybe even a Unix box (i.e. Sun) but that's about it. What I can see happening is people saying "Hey look a coll handheld made by Apple". And from then on all Palm devices become Apple. Which may or may not be a bad thing...
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
Even better, go ahead and create a Linux-based cross compiler for the PSION. Just ask Psion for the source code to the compiler. As I said, it's the GNU Compiler Collection, so they _must_ give you the source code.
SoftMaker Office for Windows|Linux|Android
The forty-two cent question, then, is whether or not current CF devices will (ever) be compatible with the MicroDrive, or will native support have to be written in the firmware of the device(s) as they are designed/manufactured? Will camera/PDA companies provide firmware upgrades to enable MicroDrive support, etc?
I am a little confused about this. (Among other things.) I love the idea of the MicroDrive, and I'm hoping it catches on in a big way.
Free music from Jack Merlot.
Perhaps they could dispense with the cradle entirely and synch using InfraRed, *IF* the iMac has an InfraRed port.... hmmmmmm.
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
This is good news, as long as we don't get another IBM knockoff. The IBM version is exactly like the palm but a different color and label. Hopefully Apple can take the PalmOS and create a new hardware interface that is easier to use. Perhaps with some more accessibility that doesn't use the stylus. It would be great to have an "enter" button that you could thumb on the side of the unit instead of gettting your pen out to select the option you want.
Nate
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
A microdrive would be brilliant to have as a storage device in a Handspring Visor. I have no idea if it can be used, but imagine being able to use it as a storage device too, or as a portable MP3 player with some more capacity than on static RAM
Use Adsense for Charity
"4" sounds like "death" in Chinese. Or was it Japanise ... can't remeber ... but its definitly because is sounds like death (or dead).
ThadThad
it's pretty hard to translate the look and feel of desktop using a keyboard/mouse, to a mono lcd with a stylus !
I use a palm III and it performs quite well (although it chews more batteries than i would like).
The main thing apple could do with their own incarnation of the PalmOS is integrate it tightly with MacOS and standard (popular) mac apps.
BTW, while we are on the "i" subject, what the hell does that stand for? "Internet?" "Intelligent?"
The current iMacs shipping with MacOS 9 are pre-installed with Instant Palm Desktop in the menu bar.
There must be some cross- licensing agreement with 3COM in place already.
I for one am quite happy with my Palm III. If I wanted another PalmOS machine, it would be a Palm IV,V,VI, or whatever. Apple would really have to deliver an outstanding little PDA with highly competative pricing to make me switch. And I am sure they can do that, based on past success :-)
Well, I have a Palm IIIx and I hate getting out the pen. So whenever I'm playing a game with the buttons at the bottom, and a box pops up telling me "You are at level 5", I just use my fingernail and tap the button.
It can't be _that_ bad for the screen.
COmplete TCP/IP compliant stack w/256Bytes? Are you on drugs or what?
I don't see Apple NOT doing them in bright colors, even if we first only have a choice of "blueberry." Look at what's happened to pagers over the past few years. Now I can get a Mickey Mouse plate for my cell phone, for goodness sakes. Already having the Macs that you could potentially color-coordinate with would probably even sell a few more!
"Hey, Rocky! Watch me pull some intelligence out of the internet!" "Awwww, that trick never works!"
The screen size is a factor, but if they would get rid of the the silk-screened interface area, that whole space could be used for writing entire words. True, people who write large letters would find it cramped, but it would be a step in the right direction. Unfortunately the industry doesn't move by the power of my whims alone. A shame really.
"The avalanch has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote." -Kosh
The number IV is apparently not used because it clashes (I'm not sure, either the glyph IV or the word/number 4) with a naughty word in some Oriental language.
Not quite. 4 is just considered unlucky in a lot of asian countries because it sound similar to death or something like that. Some buildings are built without a fourth floor in China.
I think it is also something to do with skipping a number to make it obvious that this is a new generation. That was the reason with the Psion 5. They could be copying
The chip in the Palms is the same as the ones in early Macintoshes, if my memory serves me correctly, so Apple should be able to make a few interesting twists to the PalmOS for a branded handheld.
hopefully they take it one step farther & fully incorporate cel/page/airport capacities into one handy little device that's priced affordably for non-corporate types (i.e. sub $200...). I'm only dreaming, no doubt, but can't blame me for wishing... Apple seems to be bent on simplifying & extending while keeping on budget lately, so here's hoping...
digital artist, 3D animator, web designer, and otherwise technological creative type....
IMHO the Newton had some very good features and the Palm Pilot certainly has many great features (I have a IIIX and would sooner trade my firstborn than give it up). If the companies can truly cooperate and combine the best of both worlds, it can only be a plus for the consumer. Although I love my Palm Pilot, I am definitely graffitti impaired,(guess that proves I can't even draw a straight line with a ruler) and handwriting recognition that would learn how I write would be a godsend!
They've been talking iPalm since they announced iMac. this is not news. They were talking about ditching newton and buying palm years before. they've been romancing palm for at least 5 years. If you want to see interesting palm variants, look at the TRG Pro, www.trgnet.com instead of the springboard port like visor, they adopted a CF port.... modem support, 340mb IBM microdrive support... a palm with 8mb base and 340mb storage is BOOOTIFUL!
As long as the two work together to improve the interface I see this as a good thing. Apple has always been known for its easy UI and that is what the Palm is all about. But I do not want the Mac desktop on my Palm. Although the menu hack does add a bit of that to the PalmOS now. Hmmmmm.
-- I can't say enough in 120 chars!
Handspring's Visor has a USB cradle for hotsyncing. Works pretty well.
To be honest, I don't see much need for a free (speech) replacement for PalmOS. The OS (at least until quite recently) is very closely coupled with the hardware, and Palm are very good to their developers. You can (after filling in the relevent forms) get the source to most of the OS, and the source to all the built-in apps is available under a very free license. One thing in particular would make a free replacement hard - there is no keyboard on the device, so you'd need writing recognition to do most useful things with the device.
One more thing: my GPLed software for the Palm is available at http://www.vmlinuz.org/palmos. There's a barely-written web site downloader (use SiteScooper instead) and LinkDirect (yes, it's a better, GPLed clone of DirectLink), a program for making a quick PPP connection between the Palm serial port and the PC serial port.
Paranoia isn't an infectious condition, it's a way of life
The Palm doesn't talk USB. The Visor, which is otherwise entirely Palm compatible, does talk USB, and has the hotsync speed to prove it.
;-)
The Visor definitely rocks, though. If only the company would commit to producing upgrades on the OS when the new color API comes out (shades of gray are fine).
Now, when are we going to get Fibrechannel (>1Gb) speeds on our hotsyncs?
-Billy
Well, at least one thing could come out of this: we could finally get a PalmOS device with "eeep!", "bwoink!", "beuuuunngh!" and "eeeek!" sounds. Maybe when you hit the hard reset button you'll get a sample of a go-cart skidding and crashing into a wall of tires. Hmm...
--
Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
The latest version of the Palm OS will do this already (to both Mac and PC), and I believe a friend of mine did successfully synch his Palm to his apple laptop using IR.
Last I heard, he went back to a serial cradle, as his TV was polluting his living room with IR and he was having reliability and speed problems.
Bill Kilgallon
Mathematically impossible requirements are technically not against policy.
This actually goes quite nicely with the announcement that Xircom will be producing an Airport Springboard for the Visor. CNN article - Xircom Press Release. I wonder if the first batch, or so, of Apple-brand PalmOS devices will have Airport support, possibly built in, possibly with a simple add-on...
I once wrote, on my Newton, "How many Newtons does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" I got "One many suiters does it tail to view in Trinidad".
I don't see why. Apple neither invented on-line handwriting recognition nor was their technology particularly distinguished. They may have a few patents in the area, but so do lots of other people. The basic ideas should be coming into the public domain by now, since they were worked out in the 70's and early 80's.
Of course, I don't see handwriting recognition as particularly important for PDAs anyway. It's a nice marketing gimmick, but when it comes down to it, something like a Sharp Wizard is much more efficient for data entry. To me, what makes the PalmPilot a good organizer is the well-designed software; unfortunately, none of the other hand-held organizers get close (e.g., on the Sharp Wizard, you cannot delete repeating appointments and the desktop software is a pain to install). I view the pen input as a liability, not an asset.
Back on topic, I read the article, and I didn't see anything to say what differentiates a iPalm vs. a 3Com Palm.
Besides the fruity colors (pun intended) which everyone expects, what will be in this iPalm to make it worth buying? Apple is great at design, but the Palm V series is great as it is. What would make me buy a iPalm over a regular Palm, if they were the same price?
considering the rumours of an apple-branded palm device have been stirring now for.. almost two years (since the cancellation of the Newton and intensified by Steve Jobs buyout bid on Palm not long after), i'll believe it when i see it.
:)
the Register tends to have reliable sources, and doesn't usually dip into the rumour pool lightly, but all the vague references and unsubstantiated sightings make me just a bit skeptical.
that and i just bought a used Newton MessagePad 2000 on ebay for a song
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
Yes I do know people who write novels on their Palms, but I'm a believer in the computer adjusting to the way I want to use it, not the other way around.
Part of the problem with this is the small size of the Palm Pilot. It is designed to fit comfortably in your hand and your shirt pocket. With such a small size, "real" handwriting would be very difficult. There just isn't that much room to let you write out entire words. Letter-by-letter is pretty much the only practical way to go.
It should be possible to improve the letter-by-letter recognition part, though. Graffiti isn't hard to learn or use, but you are right, computers should adapt to the user whenever possible.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Sorry, but I can't let this one slide. Where do you people come up with this stuff?
Intel quite clearly owns the StrongARM processor technology, and in fact, over the past year, they've even started to recognize that what they bought is beter than what they can build.
The StrongARM website at Intel says, "Watch for next generation StrongARM® processors to make their debut during the first half of 2000." Read it for yourself at http://developer.intel.com/design/ strong/index.htm. (Actually the quote above is from a page linked to by that page, but clearly Intel is still in this game.)
Besides, I'm not aware of any NIC with an ARM chip on it, although there may be one. The ARM and DSP's (like TI's) are very different beasts.
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
Paul.
You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.
Jobs knows what he's doing when it comes to consumer devices. With Apple behind Palm OS, we can all sleep soundly knowing that WinCE is even less likely to take control of the CE market place. Palm OS has great support in the independent developer community (not to mention the OSS guys), but it has been in danger of not having the necessary backing to compete against a competitor w/ unlimited R&D, marketing power and patience. If you can get a Palm into the hands of every whimsical Mac user, it will push the demand for increased usability with improved look&feel. This couldn't come at a better time considering the new wireless Internet applications being made available.
My only worry is that carrying one could become an embarrasment. I really don't want to use a PDA that is named after a fruit. Steve, please, make it black or grey. We need at least the semblance of looking cool. Go watch the matrix.
A couple years ago (has it been that long?) when a Texas company offered Apple $11M for the discarded Newton, one of the remaining Newton people in Apple anonymously revealed that the disruption of the Newton group was so complete that Apple didn't even know where the various parts (be they hardware or software specs) were. So, even if Apple did was to sell, they couldn't.
You have to realize that most of us Newton users have heard of all this before - it's REALLY old news. Most of the people who developed the Newton eventually went to Palm and M$ for WinCE. The more work that goes into the Palm, the closer it becomes to the MessagePad 130.
As for me, I'm very disappointed that nothing has come around to replace my Newton.
Methinks he just wants to be able to tinker. I fully understand, as I'd love to tinker with the guts of a nice portable thing like that. Look at all the TI graphing calculator hacks (new OSes, Tetris, other games, overlocking) :-)
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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
(Humourous sarcasm)
.. it's gross. :-)
Once there was a Steve, and he had Jobs. His Jobs were to fix Apple. So to make sure he kept on task, and that others' wouldn't take his time with managerial fluf, he became the interum CEO (iCEO). And all was good.
Jobs recognised that Apple needed a computer to catch the masses attention, at least long enough for them to buy Apple products. He developed an interum Macintosh to serve as a "training" computer -- it is called the iMac. And Apple market share increased, and all was good.
Then Steve recognised that people liked portability. Laptops were used on airplanes, but his iMacs couldn't go on them. So he designed the iBook, an interum laptop to be used until people bought the less flashy (and less garish, although more expensive) normal Macintosh laptops. To associate it strongly with planes, he included the "Airport" wireless network. And real CEOs bought iBooks, and Apple market share increased, and all was good.
But Steve was slow on the uptake. A veritable forest of palms had sprung up, each with a Dragon inside. Steve had no Dragons, and someone else had stolen his transparent colour plastic idea, but he did have the licences for the Rossetta code. Steve began releasing the iPalm (use it until you buy something more expensive/functional from Apple). And the iPalm was purchased by computer illiterates, and real CEOs bought the iBook, and Apple market share increased, and all was good.
(/Humourous sarcasm)
The 'i' stands for (IMO) interum more than anything else. Any company that sticks 'i' or 'e' onto the front of a name to increase sales should be yelled at (or at least have their marketting departments destroyed). "iMac" "eMachines eOne"
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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
After reading this article and thinking about the recent changes in Apple's hardware... I'm beginning to think that the Apple-Palm device might be some sort of a Palm VII with Airport capabilities- rather than the wireless technology that Palm is using right now. That would be pretty cool, although it would be more limited than the current wireless technology. You think that it might be possible for the device to support both?
I'm really looking forward to seeing what (if anything) develops out of this story.
Nah, the Visor already has the scoop on iMac colors, etc. Wonder if their implementation has an expansion port. You can see Handspring's products at www.handspring.com.
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
If you ever used a Newton, you would know what he meant. The Palm UI is still very much a desktop UI converted to a small screen. The menu bar (even though it is hidden behind the menu button) and text manipulation through copy, cut, and paste commands are really just desktop computing throwbacks that have no place in a PDA environment.
On the Newton, text was highlit with the stylus similar to the Palm, but moving text was simply dragging around a highlit section rather than a cut followed by cursor movement, and then followed by paste. Deleting was a back and forth scribble very familiar to any who has used a pencil eraser.
Other problems stem from the grafitti input system. From the applications point of view, it acts very much like a keyboard, and it flavors how the applications act. All of the Palm's text areas have a very keyboard-ish notion of lines separated by newlines. It took a long time for me to get used to the fact that spaces betwen words had to actually be written.
Despite its flaws though. Eventually I switched from the Newton to the Pilot. Some of the things that make the Pilot a less than ideal PDA tend to make it a stronger mobile extention to my desktop computer. (or however the quote went.)
As for the Newton being gone. For actual hardware and OS, I'm sure its true. But from a UI perspective, it doesn't have to be. There are worse things a fledgling palm developer could spend money on than an old used Newton, or even a book about the Newton. The people who designed it gave some really good thought on how a PDA UI should differ from a desktop UI, and I don't think that enough PDA developers realize it.
That's the only thing keeping me from replacing my Newton 2100. It's the last one Apple made and the only one that was worth buying. If there was a Palm device that did it as well as my Newton I'd buy in an instant. I don't want to learn another language just to get info into my PDA, and don't give me a stupid chicklette keyboard. If I can't type with all 10 of my fingers, what's the point? Yes I do know people who write novels on their Palms, but I'm a believer in the computer adjusting to the way I want to use it, not the other way around.
"The avalanch has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote." -Kosh
Not to be glib, but why would anyone bother doing all this work? Two of the major arguments for an open source OS are being able to fix bugs easily (and the resulting reliablility) and better device support. But PalmOS is already rock-solid reliable, and has virtually zero bugs. And there are no real devices to support, because it's a standard hardware platform. So there is very little to gain from doing this. Linux became popular because it was an alternative to an OS that people weren't happy with. Since most people ARE happy with the PalmOS, where will any replacement get an opening?
As far as Open Source ON PalmOS, 3Com releases the header files, and you can cross-compile your programs with gcc. So you can develop for it completely free.
My only major complaint with the Newton was its size. If the Apple-Palm device comes to pass, this is what I'd like to see.... A screen the size of the Newton's...
Part of the problem here is you cannot carry five pounds in a three-pound bag. The big screen of the Newton was nice to work on, but it made the unit considerably larger, which meant it was hard to carry around.
Ever notice how the size of the Palm Pilot just about matches the size of a pocket notebook (the kind that flip open at the top)? There's a reason for that. It's a very convenient size for us humans, both to hold in our hands and to put in our pockets.
One thing that might be cool is a folding screen. Imagine a unit the thickness of the Palm V, but with twice the screen area. When you are done using it, fold it in half. You still couldn't hold it in the palm of your hand, but at least you could carry it around. Unfortunately, such folding screen technology is ten or twenty years off, from what I've heard.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Given that the Newton sported a StrongARM for handwriting recognition, which was (from what I hear) roughly on par with a P5, and the Palm uses a DragonBall, a derivative of the chip used in a Mac Classic, I doubt they'd be able to squeeze enough CPU speed out of a Palm to do the Newton's handwriting recognition. One of the main reasons the MessagePad 2000's handwriting recognition was so good in the end was the massively increased CPU power StrongArm gave it.
There are some proven technologies that Apple owns which could make their way to the iPalm. (Actually, when this product entered the rumormill months ago, it went by the name "iMate", if I remember correctly.)
1) The extremely good, on screen, handwriting recognition. The Newton allows you to write nearly anywhere on screen. By the time the 2100 came out, this recognition was really good. It even understood my hand-writing, which is no small task.
2) A better UI metaphor. The Newton defined its own interface guidelines, instead of trying to be like a desktop machine. Its core UI concepts are tons better than any other handheld I've seen. I'd be surprised if these are actually used on the iMate, but if they are, I would guess that Palm will (eventually) start using them on their own devices as well.
3) Better UI widgets. Even if they don't change the whole metaphor, the iMate could learn a lot from the Newton about tiny wigdets, tricks and interface tools which make using a Newton way easier than other palmtops.
4) StrongARM support. Again, this probably won't happen, but the Newton 2x00 series used the StrongARM processor, running at something like 160MHz. For a handheld of several years ago, that is quite a bit of processing power, especially since the batteries lasted for several weeks of average use (I think they were rated at 24hrs continuous use).
5) Speech. Apple ported MacInTalk to the Newton, so the Newton can read notes back to you. Apple has also been doing quite a bit with speech recognition lately, but that probably takes more juice than the iMate would have.
6) QuickTime. Eventually (probably not in the near future), palmtops will be powerful enough to playback video. Actually, the Newton could sort of do this, but not using a standard video format. (Anyone who saw the "Eat Millhouse" Simpsons clip on a Newton knows what I mean.) It would be in Apple's best interest to get QuickTime onto palmtops as soon as possible. Since the core of QuickTime is basically a compression engine, there may be some peices of it being used in the iMate.
7) TCP/IP. The Newton (eventually) got a fairly decent, small TCP/IP stack. I'm not sure how good Palm's is, but it is possible that Apple's is better.
8) Color. This is a bit of a stretch, but Apple has had years of experience in shifting black & white OS/hardware/APIs to color. As a Mac programmer during the transition from the Plus to the Mac II, I can tell you this was not very pleasant. Apple eventually got the hang of it, and I'm sure could give Palm some (much needed) advise about the best way to transition to full color.
One thing to keep in mind about all this is that Steve Jobs absolutely hated the Newton. This might have been because it was the pet project of the guy who fired him, but I remember seeing interview with people who said things like "Steve Jobs just doesn't get the Newton". So, looking to the Newton for inspiration may be the totally opposite of what Apple did.
Where are the Open Source PalmOS nerds? While uCLinux looks really neat, It's not palmOS by any measure. Linux was just conceived to do different stuff. There is also a company called OSK who claim to have a Linux and PalmOS compatable operating system, with the base open source, since they'd be in violation of the Linux license if it wasn't. Besides, it seems like a PalmOS emulator running on top of Linux...
Is there, to anyone's knowledge
Its the Ideology(tm)!
The Apple Newton was the most advanced piece of computer technology ever to hit the consumer market. It's application language, NewtonScript, was based on Self, a classless derivative of Smalltalk. That makes the Newton the closest thing going to Alan Kay's original vision of the Dynabook.
It was too big, too expen$ive, and Apple spent about $1.98 marketing it from first to last.
Half the time, when I use my 2100 on an airplane, it stops the stewardesses dead in their tracks. Every time I take my eMate down to the local coffeehouse to work on my novel, people come up and go ga-ga over it. When I show them that it isn't an iBook, costs about 1/3 as much as an iBook, is way lighter than an iBook and is instant-on, they want to know why they haven't seen it in stores. When I tell them it's been in the coffin for over two years, their jaws drop.
The Palm is a perfect device for its niche, but for me it's too small, too slow and too stupid. It's much harder to develop for, that's certain. And it outsold Newton eight ways from Sunday because the form factor was right and because Palm knows how to market.
The fact that Steve Jobs proved he was a big fat boob when the Newton was "Steved" is emotionally satisfying, but, sadly, was almost an afterthought. Newton might have survived if it was properly marketed - the numbers that leaked out of Newton, Inc. showed it was profitable way before it should have been - but that's history.
Newton cannot be reconstructed. Nothing on the market, not even a Psion, can do what a Newton can do. As a result, I've adopted a "bunker mentality". I have several 2100s, several 130s, and an eMate, and I plan to hang onto these and use them for the three to five years it'll take for someone to bring something better to market. For my needs, Palm isn't in the running.
Back in 1996 I bought a Newton MessagePad 120 "demo unit" and thought it was the most wonderful piece of technology I'd ever seen. I envied the MessagePad 2000's and 2100's when they came out but did not want to pay the $900 price tag.
My only major complaint with the Newton was its size. If the Apple-Palm device comes to pass, this is what I'd like to see....
1. A screen the size of the Newton's with the capability of rotating the display. On the 2000's and 2100's you could rotate the display so that the Pad could be held more comfprtably in either your left or right hand as well as "vertically".
2. Airport/wireless capability.
3. IR support.
4. Seemless desktop synchronization (the current HotSync application works great on the Mac though)
5. A "slate" form-factor- Newton-sized screen with the thickness of a Palm V. I would not mind the device being larger than the current Palms as long as it was not much heavier.
6. Built-in USB port for desktop connectivity rather than using a cradle like the current Palms.
7. More ram.
8. Natural handwriting recognition in addition to or instead of Grafitti.
A device like this would be "just dreamy".
Back in 1997 when Steve Jobs was let back into Apple, the Newton group was worried about how long they would last.
At the developer conference Jobs pointed to a 2000 and said:
"Apple makes computers. Computers have keyboards. Does this have a keyboard?"
Amelio, in an attempt to KEEP the Newton group from leaving, spun off the Newton group to Newton Inc to 'sink or swim'. Gil saw the handwriting on the wall: Jobs was removed from Apple by John Scully when Jobs tried to have Scully terminated. As Scully had claimed the Newton as 'his baby', Jobs was working to knife Scully's child. Gil also had watch Newton staff LEAVE for Palm computing when Jobs was brought on board.
At this point, Newton Inc had prototypes of a palm-sized Newton for $500 price point. No PCMCIA card slot etc.
After Gil was gone, the Newton division was spun 'back in'. At this point 32 of the Newton group left IN MASS to Palm. (Other things: Parts for a new run of Newtons were not being ordered, etc) So, the Newton engineers were no longer around. At this point, the Newton was without core developers.
Given the LACK of respect Jobs showed handheld computers/PDA's, was buying Palm a GOOD idea? (IE-would the engineers have STAYED in an Steve Jobs controlled version of Palm...I don't believe so)
Move to present day:
Palm has the TALENT that made rosetta (the handwriting engine)
Apple has the COPYRIGHTS to rosetta
Both sides have lawyers.
If Palm were to come up with REAL handwriting, Apple could sue. Even IF the new version was 'clean' of Apple code, the legal bills would go on for some time.
How can Apple get a cheaper Palm licence? Allow Palm to use rosetta technology in a cross licence agreement.
How long has an Apple branded Palm been rumored? Soon, the 2 year mark will be reached. The time to announce this JUST passed....the Apple love in at MacWorld.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!