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Can those iOS languages be used to build an iOS app

It runs on iOS, therefore it's an IOS app.

and run it on the iPhone like an "official" app?

Yes you can with Codea.

Can you morons PLEASE STFU up now about people not creating anything on mobile devices? I mean after iPad DJ's, New Yorkers covers drawn on a iPad, and begin able to code real games on an iPad - just what is your damage in not understanding tablets are suitable for creation??

I learned Lua by programming in Codea on my iPad during my commute. The iPad isn't the best device for hacking around with, but you certainly could learn a programming language on it if you'd like. From the looks of things there is quite a bit available.

Also quite a few Lua interpreters, of varying quality.

See Codea, not only is it a full development environment, you can apparently use it to produce a working standalone app. Look at the first item in their forum for a list of apps in the App Store developed with it.

As for calculators, I vastly prefer RPN, and I have no problems finding RPN calculators for iPad, along with unit conversions (including up-to-date currency rates). I need to look up to see if there's an iOS version of the units program, that's still the gold standard for conversion programs (and is still distributed as part of OSX).

Codea is another product like that, based on lua instead of python.

Apple made those changes because developers protested.

Again what you linked have to do with this statement: "Also forgot to mention that UnknowingFool is a huge Apple fan that even supports Apple's anti developer abuses, see this thread. No wonder he likes to hate on Ballmer." It seems to me that you were misleading people as to what I said.

If everyone was like you or listened to you when you say "You're not entitled to anything beyond what Apple deigns to give you so just shut up and stop complaining" then those few changes would have never happened.

Again, misleading and misunderstanding the entire point. Your complaints were that MS deserved special treatment because Office wasn't a fart app. I said that no, they don't because (1) it's their store and as long as they don't discriminate in any particular way I don't have an issue with it and (2) they are treating MS no differently than any other developer.

So there's nothing wrong with demanding or complaining about the 30% cut or in-app purchase requirements that, for example, the Microsoft stores don't have.

You can complain all you want but you seem to think it's a great injustice that Apple has rules they won't bend for MS. If you don't like Apple's policies, you don't have to develop for them. You are not entitled to an App store of your design. If you want to design your own device and store, go ahead. If you want to develop for MS or Android, go ahead.

I only care that the situation is fixed. A UI prototyping app was banned in multiple months even after the developer went high up the Apple exec chain. A coding app is prevented from sharing code. http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/Talk/discussion/348/apple-notified-us-of-violations-re-downloadable-code/p1 [twolivesleft.com]

I don't know the situation but reading the emails it seems that there are certain features that Apple is not clear/comfortable with. This hardly rises to the level of "anti-developer abuse" that you ranted on.

That was because people were getting into dangerous situations with Apple Maps. Apple didn't want to be culpable and get blame for that so they were basically forced to suggest competitors.

What? Apple screwed up the launch. Maps was not ready. They apologized for it and they pointed the public to a competitor. If they didn't want culpability they can put in a disclaimer just like Google does for their walking maps.

And what does this have anything to do with "anti-developer abuse" again? Oh, right. Nothing.

Apple made those changes because developers protested. If everyone was like you or listened to you when you say "You're not entitled to anything beyond what Apple deigns to give you so just shut up and stop complaining" then those few changes would have never happened. So there's nothing wrong with demanding or complaining about the 30% cut or in-app purchase requirements that, for example, the Microsoft stores don't have. You just want people to be happy and roll over.

So Apple wasn't clear about rejections and may not have been consistent with its policies. So what? You want to contribute that to malice, go ahead. I would think that in having to curate hundreds of thousands of applications, there are bound to be problems.

I only care that the situation is fixed. A UI prototyping app was banned in multiple months even after the developer went high up the Apple exec chain. A coding app is prevented from sharing code. http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/Talk/discussion/348/apple-notified-us-of-violations-re-downloadable-code/p1

And we're not allowed to complain?

>I even remember CEO Tim Cook endorsing Google's Map app during the botched Apple Maps launch.

That was because people were getting into dangerous situations with Apple Maps. Apple didn't want to be culpable and get blame for that so they were basically forced to suggest competitors.

Wrong directions can have very bad real life situations, unlike say, a broken RSS reader app.

http://www.npr.org/2011/07/26/137646147/the-gps-a-fatally-misleading-travel-companion

Or they can just share their code for others to download and use

Can they?

From http://twolivesleft.com/news/codea-and-code-sharing/

Here’s what happened.

We were contacted late December last year (20th or so) by an Apple App Reviewer. He informed us that Codea’s project sharing feature violated section 3.3.2 of the Developer Agreement.

3.3.2 An Application may not download or install executable code. Interpreted code may only be used in an Application if all scripts, code and interpreters are packaged in the Application and not downloaded. The only exception to the foregoing is scripts and code downloaded and run by Apple’s built-in WebKit framework, provided that such scripts and code do not change the primary purpose of the Application by providing features or functionality that are inconsistent with the intended and advertised purpose of the Application as submitted to the App Store.

While Codea doesn’t, and has never “downloaded” code. It did “install” Lua source code if directed to do so by the user. That is, a user could open Mobile Safari, point it at a .codea project, and be given the option to “Open in Codea.” This then placed the file into Codea’s sandbox and Codea would extract that file into a new project for the user.

This is essentially the same as the user visiting a website which displays the source code, selecting the text, copying it to clipboard, and pasting it inside the code editor. Except a lot more convenient.

I mentioned this to the App Reviewer over the phone. I think I even asked him, “What happens if the user types code into the app that they see somewhere on the web, is that downloading?”

The answer I got was that it’s a grey area. And most app reviewers are not able to make a decision like this – so they must err on the side of caution. However, the app reviewer was extremely friendly, helpful and completely open to allowing me to initiate further discussion with Apple over this matter. He even started the appeal process for me. This makes me hopeful that when this issue is examined further it will be possible to come to a solution.

It would be great if iOS development tools warranted their own clause in the agreement.

We received a call from Apple about violations regarding downloadable executable code (namely, the .codea packages).

Edit: We have worked with Apple and have resolved the issue. The app will be available to download/purchase in the future, but we have removed the sharing feature in the next update. We will attempt to convince Apple that the feature is benign and that we should be able to keep it using their official channels.

Apple obviously wants only their store to have programs that can be distributed. That means any code written by iPad apps can't even be shared without jumping through needless restrictive hoops that are in place to make it as hard as possible to even do something basic as share code.

Easy peasy, indeed.

You mean like this? http://www.pbs.org/idealab/2010/05/programming-language-for-kids-banned-from-apple-app-store118

Ok lets see what a kid wanting to program on iOS needs to do.

1) Needs a relatively expensive Mac to even start. What chance is there that parents are going to buy one(if they don't have one) just because little Jimmy may want to dip their feet in programming, which may finally end up in nothing? Pretty close to zero. The cheapest Mac starts at $599 for a weak device on which Xcode lags.
2) Needs an Apple developer ID for which they need to be atleast 13 years ago and $99/yr subscription to test apps on their iOS device. Fat chance that many parents are going to get those for a kid who are known to get bored pretty quick.

You've gotten your steps wrong

Here's what a kid wanting to program on iOS needs to do:

1) Download codea on their iPad for ten bucks
2) write a program in LUA
3) run the program on their iPad
4) repeat as desired

http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/codify/id439571171?ls=1&mt=8

Easy peasy.

What's even better is that if they make something they is worthwhile then they can sign up to be an apple iOS developer and release their program on the App Store. Or they can just share their code for others to download and use.

E-readers (the e-ink sort) are terrible ways to read anything even a little bit technical. I used to have a kindle dx (actually I think it's still in a box somewhere). The resolution was nice and the visual quality of the text was top notch. But reading my research papers on it was a nightmare. The rendering and screen refresh is just too slow. And fine print was too hard to read. Zooming in helped but then you couldn't turn pages.

E-readers are great for reading a novel or something one page at a time. But when you have to page back and forth, search and make annotations and markups nothing beats a tablet for me (not even a laptop). Sure you can't read in broad daylight but that's such a small part of when and where I read.

Then there's other kinds of content: video, interactive, connected, etc. can't do any of that well on an e-reader.

As for iPad specifically (the above applies to any full tablet). I've been having fun coding on it in codea. A fully functional IDE:

http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/

Perfect? No. But certainly puts the lie to people's (mistaken) notion that you can't write code on an iPad.

What else should I be looking for then?

I've only gotten one app suggestion (in a nastily phrased comment) when I did specifically ask for instances:

http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/

3 years? That's a random and irrelevant restriction to apply.

I chose three years to be the median time between paid upgrades to the Windows OS. Among Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows XP, Windows Vista, and Windows 7, all except Windows XP were replaced about three years in.

Tablets are less hassle for the same functionality a laptop will provide.

Johnny is in a programming class in high school, and he brings homework home, and it happens to be in a language other than Lua or Python. Can he complete his assignment on an iPad?

In addition, many video streaming sites have been known to block users of tablets. Hulu's free tier is PC-only. Amazon video plays on PCs but not on any tablet other than a Kindle or an iPad. Vimeo requires (or required?) the uploader to have a Plus subscription or the videos won't be playable on tablet operating systems. Viewing any other video produces a message to the effect "Click here to remind yourself to watch this video on a computer." I've found that a lot of videos on YouTube are blocked on mobile as well, with a similar message.

There is however much to gain, notably a touch screen

A touch screen gets fingerprints all over the screen, and a capacitive touch screen alone is far coarser than a mouse or even a trackpad. A touch screen with a fine-pointed stylus like some recent Samsung tablets might work, but let me know when the next iPad supports that.

That's because you can share "eToys" within the context of an app. Codea for example, is an app for creating programs on the iPad - you can export code for a game you develop there, and send it to someone.

Unless that changed very recently, you can't actually, specifically because Apple cracked down on them for allowing users to run downloaded code. This is the same as Pythonista and other similar projects. Apple's policy on that matters is that you can have interpreters, but they must only run code that is input by the user. So the only option for code sharing is copy/paste.

Playing a game leads to "I'm gonna program my own game" about as often as driving a car leads to "vehicular homicide."

You assert that it does. I disagree with your assertion but am willing to evaluate evidence that you present.

As far as "upgrading" a tablet? Buy a $30 bluetooth keyboard, and you've got yourself a netbook.

I run IDLE, a Python programming environment, on my Dell Inspiron mini 1012 netbook. Does the iPad have an app for that?

Google is your friend, but the short answer is it does have Python. Also, Lua, but not Ruby, not Haskell, not Perl but a CPAN reference is there. A little more digging... it can do Javascript and Processing, and a game maker based on Lua again.

Apple with the iPad and iPhone goes even further and does not allow children to download an Etoy made by another child somewhere in the world.

Even ignoring the fact that Android doesn't seem like it has any limitations that matter in this regard (and to me the question was more "do we have a dynabook yet" rather than "is the iPad a dynabook"), the statement is incorrect when applied to the iPad.

That's because you can share "eToys" within the context of an app. Codea for example, is an app for creating programs on the iPad - you can export code for a game you develop there, and send it to someone. That is in fact doing exactly what he said you cannot do - share an "eToy" you created.

Basically he has fallen into believing the myth that tablets are for consumption and not creation, ignoring a great lot of creation occurring all over.

Will Codea let me do so without "jailbreaking" and without an Internet connection? Can I send it over a wired cable or a wireless but not internet enabled wifi network? How about even just blue tooth?

If yes, then you win, if not, then no, you're still an Apple apologist.

Apple with the iPad and iPhone goes even further and does not allow children to download an Etoy made by another child somewhere in the world.

Even ignoring the fact that Android doesn't seem like it has any limitations that matter in this regard (and to me the question was more "do we have a dynabook yet" rather than "is the iPad a dynabook"), the statement is incorrect when applied to the iPad.

That's because you can share "eToys" within the context of an app. Codea for example, is an app for creating programs on the iPad - you can export code for a game you develop there, and send it to someone. That is in fact doing exactly what he said you cannot do - share an "eToy" you created.

Basically he has fallen into believing the myth that tablets are for consumption and not creation, ignoring a great lot of creation occurring all over.

You can program on iPads: http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/

I'd prefer if it was free and less limited, but I think it's good enough to learn, and Lua is a much better language than BASIC ever was.

Although three is way too young an age to have your mind warped by having whitespace define blocks, you can program in python on an iPad.

Another option is Codea to learn to code, or the more recent ScriptKit.

But really three is probably too young for a real coding environment...

If your nephew has access to an iOS device, try Cargobot:

http://twolivesleft.com/CargoBot/

At that age, that being said, kids usually prefer Cut the Rope:

http://www.zeptolab.com/ctr/

The latter isn't technically programming, but it certainly teaches them problem solving.

post-PC world you can't code on ios...

Sure you can:

Codea
Diet Coda
Gusto
Koder
Python for iOS
Textastic

post-PC world you can code on ios and the screen is fine big typing / excel type work.

FTFY

By the way, my novel is coming along just fine, thanks.

An iPad is everything you need for serious writing. Less so if you are doing design and layout, but for writing it is very convenient, light and has an insanely long battery life. If you need a keyboard, there are plenty of them sold with bluetooth connections that work fine on the iPad, freeing up a ton of space. Mine is connected to my iPad case. If you balk because a bluetooth keyboard is not included with the purchase price, maybe you could tell me which desktop computer I can buy with a decent bluetooth keyboard included for free.

+1. TFS's reason for not wanting an iPad left me skeptical.

Educational apps are second only to games in numbers. Both of these app store categories cater tremendously to kids. Some of the edu apps are really great.

If you want the kid to play with code, toss in Codea. The language underneath is Lua, which is very easy to pick up.

Mid- to long-term, chances are that schools will either supply or require a tablet (likely an iPad) for textbooks, edu apps or whatever. Imho, don't fight this trend; embrace it.

That being said, wait a month or so for Apple's next event if you're not in a rush. Rumor has it that Apple will announce a 7.85" iPad. (As much as kids love to play with my own iPad, it's clearly too heavy for 4-7 year olds; a smaller one would be a much better fit for their tiny fingers and juvenile forearms.)

If you don't have a real keyboard you don't have a real development tool - regardless of the IDE.

Someone else pointed out a more fundamental problem: you cannot write iPad software using your iPad. Even if it had a keyboard, that problem would kill the iPad as a software development platform.

+5 Shortsightful - First IPad Game Written in Codea on the IPad Hits the App Store

Someone else pointed out a more fundamental problem: you cannot write iPad software using your iPad.

They are wrong.

Once you jailbreak an iOS device, you can also compile on it. Why would you not be able to?

The developer of the alternate Cydia app store used to ssh to his iPhone in from his netbook (yes, really) and compile software on the device.

You can do all GUI creation in code; you do not ever have to use Interface Builder or other GUI tools if you do not wish to. There is no limitation on what you can do.

If you mean something along the lines of "it's not possible to type long on an iPad", the same keyboard I am typing on now attached to my computer can also be attached to the iPad.

But even going outside Jailbreaking, there are already ways to develop subsets of iPad applications - using an app called Codify. In fact it even represents a crude start at thinking about how you would realistically have a good code editor work on a touchscreen. They have a video, you should watch it.

Interpreters are okay. What is not OK is an interpreter that runs code from external sources, e.g. the network. If you look at the apps you've listed, all of them have one thing in common: they all require user to enter the code explicitly. Specifically in case of Codea, they even explain why: http://twolivesleft.com/news/codea-and-code-sharing/

Another option is to hardcode it into the app. For example, when someone ported DosBox back in the day, Apple refused to let them in so long as they permitted the user to run downloaded apps; they only allowed a version with a couple prebundled games.

Naturally, a browser needs to be able to run arbitrary downloaded JS.

Give me a call when you can easily develop for the iPad on the iPad.

You already can.

The point is not that it can do everything today, it's that you can imagine it doing everything someday.

You don't have to look very hard to see the trend.

Can you bring your own stuff into the workplace?

Maybe you could bring a Raspberry Pi and ssh into it to hack around, or jack a spare monitor/keyboard into it.
Maybe an iPad with Codea installed.

Also honestly I'd consider talking to the boss and getting permission to fuck around with this openly instead of doing it on the sly.

This is spot on!

And this is why I "pirate" apps. But before you judge, I can make two statements with total honesty: 1) I have ZERO pirated apps on any of my devices. ALL paid apps I have, have been purchased paid for. 2) Every last app on my mobile devices has been "pirated" for 5-10 minutes. Every last one (Excluding built-in and free apps of course)

My purchasing process goes like this:

1) Is there a free version? If so, get that and try it, then jump to step 5 2) No free trial/demo? Then I fire up installious and find the app in question. 3) App not in warez form yet? Then stop - This app is no longer an option. 4) Try warez version for 5-10 minutes or so, hitting 'deny all for session' in firewall, and then delete the app.

5a) Did I like the app? If so, I return to the app store and purchase it. 5b) Did I hate the app? It's already long deleted, so we are basically done here.

The developers that DO provide a demo/trial version, you guys rock. Makes it very easy to decide if your app is for me and buy it, with 2/5ths the steps and much less time involved.

The developers that don't, well, deal with it. If I can't demo it somehow, you are guaranteed to have lost a sale, and if I happen to have placed your company name in my memory, you have potentially lost all sales to me.

I've easily spent over $500 on the apple store, and $200 on the Cydia store, in apps alone over both of my devices. It isn't worth it to me to fuck around with managing pirated apps in the long term, and have no interest in that.

The first app I was ripped off from was a silly $1 game. It literally would not run on either of my devices. I was pissed but since it was only a dollar I let it slide. The second app however was a $10 development tool that was literally NOTHING like the description.

BTW, the scam app was: App Designer HD, v1.2, Seller: Nate Chiger I see he lowered it from $10 to $1, no doubt trying to rip off even more people than before. If you read the description, that is not anything close to what the app really does. You get ONE of each GUI widget type, and can move the icon around on the screen like they were cutout on paper. Want two buttons or two switches on your screen? Too bad. In fact it would be easier and have MORE features to just use pen and paper instead of this piece of crap app.

The developer nor Apple would refund the price. Ever since that day I won't even consider an app I can't try first, one way or the other.

I ended up trying two different apps that filled this roll. iMockups (Also $10 but AWESOME) for doing GUI layout and design, and Codea ($8) for rapid prototyping (In Lua no less.) Both "pirated" for 10ish minutes each, and immediately purchased after deleting the warez copy.

I have no problems paying for software. I do have problems getting ripped off.

You stinking theiving pirate! I bet you even listen to music on the radio without paying for it before buying it on itunes!

This is spot on!

And this is why I "pirate" apps. But before you judge, I can make two statements with total honesty:
1) I have ZERO pirated apps on any of my devices. ALL paid apps I have, have been purchased paid for.
2) Every last app on my mobile devices has been "pirated" for 5-10 minutes.
Every last one (Excluding built-in and free apps of course)

My purchasing process goes like this:

1) Is there a free version? If so, get that and try it, then jump to step 5
2) No free trial/demo? Then I fire up installious and find the app in question.
3) App not in warez form yet? Then stop - This app is no longer an option.
4) Try warez version for 5-10 minutes or so, hitting 'deny all for session' in firewall, and then delete the app.

5a) Did I like the app? If so, I return to the app store and purchase it.
5b) Did I hate the app? It's already long deleted, so we are basically done here.

The developers that DO provide a demo/trial version, you guys rock. Makes it very easy to decide if your app is for me and buy it, with 2/5ths the steps and much less time involved.

The developers that don't, well, deal with it. If I can't demo it somehow, you are guaranteed to have lost a sale, and if I happen to have placed your company name in my memory, you have potentially lost all sales to me.

I've easily spent over $500 on the apple store, and $200 on the Cydia store, in apps alone over both of my devices. It isn't worth it to me to fuck around with managing pirated apps in the long term, and have no interest in that.

The first app I was ripped off from was a silly $1 game. It literally would not run on either of my devices. I was pissed but since it was only a dollar I let it slide.
The second app however was a $10 development tool that was literally NOTHING like the description.

BTW, the scam app was: App Designer HD, v1.2, Seller: Nate Chiger
I see he lowered it from $10 to $1, no doubt trying to rip off even more people than before.
If you read the description, that is not anything close to what the app really does.
You get ONE of each GUI widget type, and can move the icon around on the screen like they were cutout on paper.
Want two buttons or two switches on your screen? Too bad.
In fact it would be easier and have MORE features to just use pen and paper instead of this piece of crap app.

The developer nor Apple would refund the price. Ever since that day I won't even consider an app I can't try first, one way or the other.

I ended up trying two different apps that filled this roll.
iMockups (Also $10 but AWESOME) for doing GUI layout and design,
and Codea ($8) for rapid prototyping (In Lua no less.)
Both "pirated" for 10ish minutes each, and immediately purchased after deleting the warez copy.

I have no problems paying for software. I do have problems getting ripped off.

I was a developer for Codea. Its an iPad app for rapidly prototyping games using Lua, similar to Processing's model. We have found many people are using it to teach their kids how to program as well.
http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/

It's a shame that Apple has run so far away from its roots that it discourages true native development on their mobile devices. The iPad would be ideal for a hypercard app of some sort for kids and novices to actually be creative with their devices... It's very sad that Apple still claims to be an educational/creative company that encourages users to "Think different", when there is one glaring omission--creating something for your Apple device.

Agreed, sadly.
I used to be a huge Apple fan, way back in the Apple// day. I don't speak out in their favor much anymore.
Lately they are not a company to be too proud of, and most of their new products are much less appealing to me.

As for your iPad/Hypercard comment, I recently just found an iPad app called Codea (Previously Codify) which does exactly this.
It was marked down to $1 for a Christmas special, so I went ahead and bought it to take a peek (Normally $8.) It's pretty sweet so far.

http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/

It uses the Lua language, and provides an IDE that takes advantage of the touch interface for auto-complete and parameter fill-in's.
There's a video on the front page to showcase some of the IDE features.

As an example, if you type out the function as: background()
It will add a bubble between the () that when touched gives you a color picker. You select your color and it inserts the RGBa values.

It doesn't appear to 'compile' down to any distributable form, so others would also need to buy Codea to run any app you might make, however that was also true of the Basic interpreter for iPhone I posted up above.

The state of scripting languages in Cydia for us jailbroken users is still sad.
All that is included are: Perl, Python, and Ruby (And Bash/CSH)
I've attempted to compile TCL nativity but had a great number of problems. I wasn't even about to attempt porting TK however, which is TCLs main advantage.

Take a look at Codea: http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/

Apple does not want iDevices to be primary computers. Those should not be a child's only computer.

And there are some nice play programming environments for iPad for example: http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/

Apple is getting a little more casual about interpreters. For example http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/ is now allowed. I use a program which has 3 interpreters. They allow multiple Basics in the app store. They just allowed a rather full featured scheme.

They do however want to avoid problems so they are being cautious.