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Will Developers Finally Start Coding On the iPad?
An anonymous reader writes "It's not so long since Apple silently dropped the restriction about iOS apps for programming — iPad owners can now code in Lua with Codea or with Python for iOS. Yesterday, a new app called Kodiak PHP brought another IDE to the iPad, this time for PHP coders. Pandodaily's Nathaniel Mott describes it as a full-blooded software development tool with comparison to other iOS apps. Cult of Mac reports that the demise of the Mac might be closer than we think, but are developers really ready to use the on-screen keyboard to do some serious work?"
my iconia tablet + bluetooth keyboard is all I carry around these days. Plenty of good ide's, can host a webserver on the tablet, and so on and so on.
Whatever, ipads. . lol
No.
..but if they were serious enough about coding on a tablet, there are plenty of portable hardware keyboards that can be connected to it.
But really, the IDE apps mentioned don't seem to allow development of actual iOS apps on the device, unlike https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aide.ui&hl=en
Speaking for my people, No.
or when the rest of you see one of these stories predicting about the demise of desktops, laptops and every other device with a precise user interface and non-negligible computing capacity, do you just want to shoot yourself?
Can I use the iPad to develop fully featured iPad apps? No? I don't think you can bill it as a development platform, then.
Wonderful news to have real programming available on iOS however my Mac is a lot more than just a keyboard. I see a time when the iOS and MacOS will merge and there will be varying pieces of hardware that runs the new AppleOS (aOS). But just adding a keyboard (which I have) to my iPad does not make my iPad as functional as my Mac. The Mac has a lot more storage (iCloud is not available here in any reliable fast mode) and a lot more ports. My Mac can also play CD's (remember those - sort of like envelopes for music) and DVDs (envelopes for movies). The iPad has a long ways to go before it's as good as a Mac.
* It fits in my purse.
But what keeps me using a computer over a tablet, at least so far, as the ease of use — navigation, switching between browser tabs or between applications, ability to split screen and have documents side by side and so on. My coding is minimal, but I do a huge amount of research and writing up my thoughts, and, whilst a tablet has worked its way into my life despite me initially pooh-poohing them as pretty much pointless for the way I tend(ed) to use computers, I cannot see it replacing a computer for the time being.
Why the hell would I want to target a platform that limits devs to basically writing toys (no system level apps, no "arbitrary code execution", no duplication of "useful" apps that would compete with Apple-flavored)?
And then, even if I did have a great idea for the next "Angry Birds"... Why the hell would I want to target a platform known for giving devs the boot for reasons ranging from "editorial" to "petty" to "borderline illegal vindictive"?
Thanks, but no thanks. I'll target iDevices as soon as they tear down the wall around the garden, and not before.
I wouldn't even use a MacBook Pro keyboard for coding more than a few minutes. Nor would I code on that kind of screen size. Similarly, if I'm writing an email longer than a few sentences, I put my iPad down and reach for the laptop...
Let's face it, when writing a significant app you do a lot of typing. So. Are the iPad's keys roughly the size of a normal keyboard's? That size is significant because it's a comfortable size for human fingers. Much larger and it's awkward to reach between keys, while much smaller and it's awkward to hit just the key you want. Does the iPad's screen allow for keys to be depressed and provide gradual resistance? Those mechanical aspects are important because they provide tactile feedback and avoid having the typist hammering the tips of their fingers on a solid surface (which hurts after a while). Can I keep the iPad's on-screen keyboard only slightly inclined (so it's in line with the plane my fingers occupy while typing) while angling it's display 45 degrees or more up (so it's perpendicular to my line of vision)? That's so I can type comfortably without having to crane my neck or maintain an uncomfortable position to see the screen clearly. As far as I can tell the answer to all of those is "Not without external devices.". So if I'm going to tie myself down to a stand to hold the iPad itself plus a big keyboard and mouse to do my typing on, why wouldn't I go for the conventional desktop with it's larger monitors and more horsepower so I can run builds faster?
Unless coding applications are much much improved from general text input applications, not likely is my answer.
I can barely be hassled "typing" any more than 3-4 sentence email on an ipad before I get annoyed. In addition to the difficulty of typing, the lack of cursor control (touching to move the cursor is just down to luck as to where exactly it goes) means the entire experience is a retrograde step. Fine for 140 character input, useless if you want to type any lengthy piece of text.
Tablets are great for some things (content consumption primary amongst them). But honestly, any time I am told that tablets represent a "post-pc" world for content creation (whether professional coding, or simple word processing), I just laugh.
I think we can use the word "bootstrapping" to describe that: a PC can be "bootstrapped" in terms of development, an iPad cannot be. If Apple wants to open up the iPad so that we can write software for it without requiring some other computer, maybe the answer will change.
Palm trees and 8
I want my company to provide a really powerful virtual machine that I can access from my ipad w/ a logitech keyboard. That way, if I need more power, I just get a different virtual machine. I'd also like my logitech mouse to work with that VM, but one step at a time. As it stands, my corporate IT services are pitiful compared to existing cloud services. Both evernote and onenote work better from the internet. My corporate email is space constrained (unlike my gmail). Lastly, I can access my dropbox and google drive files from anywhere, as compared to my corporate documents, which are locked into my laptop. I would fire my corporate IT if I had a choice. They don't provide as good service. The lack of service creates corporate security risks, as my fellow employees eschew corporate IT services in favor of cloud services.
A simple game or a visualization of some data? Sure, you might program that on an iPad.
But for serious work it just lacks the tools. You need more than just an IDE to create a real application. The fact you can't easily work with files or open up a terminal is a serious deal breaker there.
And of course there's the fact there's no way to share screen space between different apps on an iPad. The fact every app always takes up the entire screen is great for a lot of people, but I don't think developers are amongst those who appreciate this level of user friendliness. At least not for work purposes.
Pretty good is actually pretty bad.
I'm not sure i'd want to develop a fully fledged app on a locked down single-task, single 10" display device with no physical keyboard.
It's a bit like asking "Will developers finally start coding on their internet-connected Fridges?"
A couple of years ago I finally got an external monitor for my work PC that had more pixels than the Sun 3 I'd used back in the 1980s. (We mainly worked with laptops, and our IT department always thought that having more color depth was more important than more pixels, even though most of us work with text and simple graphics and 16-bit color was plenty. Some years they also thought portability was important, which was nice of them, but had the price of only getting 1024x768.)
Back when I was younger, 1280x1024 pixels was annoyingly small to do development work in, because it limits how much text you could fit on a screen. Now that I need reading glasses, I not only want more pixels than that, but I want a bigger screen to put them on, and holding the latest generation iPad/MacBook close to my face just means typing is awkward.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
See Also: Netbook
Seriously. Just no. Journalists--stop it. Stop it already.
I wonder what will happen when all the hype dies down and people actually use their tablet for more than casual BS. Right now it's The New Shiny (TM). But when the world over finally realizes it's collecting dust, will they buy another?
My guess--only the $200 tablets like the Nexus 7 will survive. Though the only thing that has peaked my interest would be *laptops* or convertible tablets (like that new Sony one with a slide out KB) with Win 8. Because as it stands now, unless you attach a mouse or use the nipple on the Thinkpads, Trackpads are quite possibly the worst thing ever to use.*
With Win 8 on a touch-screen laptop, I could for serious work use the mouse--but for casual stuff, using the touch-screen on a laptop would be a god-send. And no, I don't want iOS or even my preference--Android. I want a REAL computer to do REAL things. Like the simple act of being able to load SouthParkStudios.com or browse a company's job board.
* And no, don't listen to what the world's most biased site, the Verge says--the Mac's trackpads are not worth switching entire computers, ecosystems, or preferences for.
. . .today. Tomorrow, who knows?
Look, I'm an iOS & web developer. I use an iPad all day long, often off-site. If anybody is the target market for this, it's me. And I think developing on an iPad is an awful idea. It's a case of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should". Is it possible to pull up a code editor on the iPad? Of course. But that doesn't make it a better choice than, well, just about any other option. The only redeeming aspect of this is if you already have an iPad with you, it's better than nothing at all. But really, how often is it that you need to do some coding unexpectedly and you only have your iPad with you? This is what laptops are for.
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
I read this a while ago, back when I had an iPad, and decided to attempt the same:
http://yieldthought.com/post/12239282034/swapped-my-macbook-for-an-ipad
Bottom line; if you don't have a decent internet connection all the time (which I don't) -- it's really not a great solution. However, the article does highlight a lot of the benefits of developing on an iPad (such as long battery life, no heat, quick standby / wake up) etc
As there are IDEs appearing it could be something I look to again, but probably not for a long time.
I use my keyboard less and less for programming. And as others have pointed out, you can get a keyboard for an iPad. People who think this can't happen simply lack imagination.
No.
Next up: "Does Betteridge's law ever work?"
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
I enjoy coding on a 10in screen, with half of it occupied with a keyboard, and the other half covered in greasy finger prints. I find selecting text much easier with my super precise finger tips than a primitive mouse. In addition I do not need another window next to it for reference as I already know everything there is to know, nor do I need a second window as I code once and my application is perfect. I also love clicking on several combinations of soft-keys to locate brackets and colons. On a positive note it is much easier to add emoticons when commenting my code. :-)
When Windows 8 tablets come out next month anyone running the "Pro" (i.e. x86-based) versions will be able to run anything they can run on a PC. That includes, Visual Studio, Eclipse, Netbeans, you name it. I'm sure it won't be long before more touch-friendly versions of these apps will surface making the experience even better. Since coding makes up about 99.9% of what I do on a computer, I may actually find a tablet useful for the first time.
Not until there is an Emacs version available from the App Store.
Computer simulation made easy -- LibGeoDecomp
No.
No.
Yes, seriously, someday iPad apps will be developed on an iPad.
That day will be when the iPad plugs into a "docking station" and acts as the "cpu" and an external keyboard, mouse, display and storage (HDD, SSD, etc) connect to it through the docking station.
There's no reason apple couldn't write an iOS IDE for the iPad. You seem to think Apple has some kind of nonsensical vendetta agains developers simply because they won't let you install software from a source other than the App store. FYI, apple makes their developer tools available for free, and they only charge $100 per year to be a part of their developer program (which allows you to submit apps for approval). You seem to be taking that and extrapolating it to a world where Apple actively works to prevent software development on their platform, which makes no sense because the apps are such a large part of their product's appeal.
I do a lot of PHP coding, so I've been kind of waiting for something like that, thanks for the link.
That said, there is no way in any of the seven hells that I would do my day-to-day coding on my iPad. Try writing a few thousand characters on it, in a non-linear form, and you'll understand why.
What I definitely would love is an editor that I can use for some quick fixes or updates while I'm on the road. That way the testers can get crunching already and I might be able to send it live when I get home.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Until you can chain apps together so as to get real work done w/o being limited by what an app developer has chosen to do, the iPad is a very limited tool.
We need AppleScript, support for it in apps, and we need a HyperCard replacement (why not allow Runtime Revolution, the nicest HyperCard clone I know of to run?)
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Who are they to decide whether or not you can run development tools on your own device?
The designers, developers, maintainers and owners of their platform.
It's their system and their rules apply. Don't like their rules? Get something else. Simple as that.
Pretty good is actually pretty bad.
Someone else pointed out a more fundamental problem: you cannot write iPad software using your iPad.
They are wrong.
Once you jailbreak an iOS device, you can also compile on it. Why would you not be able to?
The developer of the alternate Cydia app store used to ssh to his iPhone in from his netbook (yes, really) and compile software on the device.
You can do all GUI creation in code; you do not ever have to use Interface Builder or other GUI tools if you do not wish to. There is no limitation on what you can do.
If you mean something along the lines of "it's not possible to type long on an iPad", the same keyboard I am typing on now attached to my computer can also be attached to the iPad.
But even going outside Jailbreaking, there are already ways to develop subsets of iPad applications - using an app called Codify. In fact it even represents a crude start at thinking about how you would realistically have a good code editor work on a touchscreen. They have a video, you should watch it.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I've done a tiny amount of dabbling in Android code and it reminded me of how much I miss Python. It's a shame that a walled-garden setup like iOS is actually friendlier to alternate languages than Android.
AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
I love how some of the comments are of the vein, "No way! How can I code without an IDE and a debugger and my 3 massive monitors and 16-core processor? What a joke!" I've coded on the console, in vi or emacs. If people couldn't write software without modern amenities, we'd never have had the modern amenities.
The reason why we won't be coding on the iPad for quite a while to come is because that's not what Apple wants you to use it for. Light work, maybe, but it's mostly a consumption device, not a creation device. Besides, if you're that hot to code on your iPad, you're a lot better off coding remotely through SSH on a machine with that 16-core processor and 8GB of RAM. (Just because I've worked on those old machines doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. :)
Maybe one day, when this kind of device is effectively all anyone wants to use. But for now, Apple would rather that you bought more hardware, not less.
They'll all get Asus or Samsungs in protest at the patents decision and code on those instead.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Since you can compile on an iOS device, you can write fully featured apps for it.
Editing? You could always grab one of the iPad code editors, use the FTP support to read and write local files on your device, and switch to a terminal to compile.
It's all a bit primitive now if you were insistent on doing the whole thing on an iPad, but it can be done.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
That day will be when the iPad plugs into a "docking station" and acts as the "cpu" and an external keyboard, mouse, display and storage (HDD, SSD, etc) connect to it through the docking station.
Doesn't iOS have a sandboxed architecture where applications are restricted to their own private workspace? How's that going to work for a developer toolchain?
full-blooded software development tool
Yeah, right.
I've taken a lot, and I'm underwhelmed.
No support for git or Subversion, i.e. revision control. Is anyone on this planet seriously still writing software without a revision control system?
No database, not even sqlite. Every non-trivial PHP application I know uses a database. How do you want to work on it if you can't at least fake DB queries?
Direct execution instead of webserver emulation. Very few PHP apps are standalone, the vast majority are written for a web environment. Frameworks and libraries do rely on webserver features for parts of their functionality (such as URL rewriting). Another major thing you can't test.
If they tried selling me this as an IDE for my Mac, I wouldn't even test it even if it were free.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Not sure what autocorrect was thinking there.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
If I had an IDE with a high degree of content assist and good touch integration, I would do small projects on my Pad. It's just that the current IDEs suck.
Lua, Python, PHP? All scripting languages, useful for their purpose of quick one-off glue tasks, but not anywhere close to "real programming". Call me when you can write a 300,000 line C++ or Java monster on the thing without ending up with debilitating eye or wrist strain injuries.
I was given an iPad3, which I managed to jailbreak. Nevertheless, the device is pretty useless: I'f I'm on the move, I have a smartphone. If I'm travelling and needing to seriously work, I take a laptop. If at home, I have a desktop. There's no situation in which the iPad is the preferred tool for the job. That *might* change if we could run a decent window manager on it, do proper multi-tasking, plug in a USB keyboard (the iPad3 only supplies 20mA, not enough). We's also need proper support for rooted iPads: for example, I can transfer my photos onto the device by scp, but iPhoto won't actually "see" them even if I put them in the right directory.
That is a non-answer
Someone says "You cannot develop on an iPad".
I tell them how they can in fact develop on an iPad.
You call that not an answer. Hmm.
This is also a non-answer; being able to develop for a platform means being able to develop for it
Which Codify allows you to do. Codify allows you to develop for the iPad. Hmm.
My mom used to program her cable receiver to turn on and change to a particular channel at a particular time, so that her VCR could record a show; would you say that she was able to "develop software using her cable box?" How is this any different?
I am not sure how the equivalent of going into Settings and altering a timer is the same thing of writing code capable of arbitrary logic and UI interaction, which again Codify allows you to do.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The app didn't "provide information about drones". You're a fucking moron.
Furthermore, you can run ANYTHING YOU WISH on your own iOS device. You can write ANY program and run ANYTHING you want. You just aren't guaranteed to have it on the App Store unless you conform to Apple's guidelines.
Why should I? Compared to the Android environment, Apple is actively hostile towards developers. For the Apple, you HAVE to buy a costly computer (since Apple's development environment is non-portable), pay yet another fee to Apple, develop your app, then can be told that your app was rejected without being given a reason. I mean, hell, they JUST started allowing programming languages onto the IPad? WTF. If you are serious about this, just get an Android device, laugh all the way to the bank with all that cash you are saving, and have a device that encourages this kind of thing. You'll be happier you did.
That said, trying to do significant programming without a keyboard WILL drive you spare (no a touch screen does not count), and you probably don't have enough screen real estate -- I do some development on a Dell Mini and the screen (almost double the size as on the Ipad) is really not big enough once you get past the "typing lots of code" part of development and to the part where you want to glance at a nice block of code all at once, or look at stuff side-by-side, or whatever.
Anybody who suggests this has not a clue what they are talking about. You can't get 2 windows of code open on an iPad, with our without a keyboard. Yes, I realize it was not that long ago that I was coding on a 1024x768 screen, even an 800x600. Ok, it was kinda long ago. Of course, I was running through boxes of paper to have a printout of certain modules. Sure, maybe I'll prototype something quick or do a light edit in Textastic while on the crapper or waiting for some take out...but coding full time? On a project of significant complexity (300,000+ lines, yes, small by some standards), no fucking way. I routinely need 5 or 6 windows open at a time, and sometimes even more. I'm even bent that the 30" screen size is being threatened by the 27".
peeeeerrrrfeeect.
I can't even get my IDE working on my Mac!
Seriously. Xcode refuses to install. And I can't seem to find just a plain compiler (like GCC) except the one "included" with Xcode, so I can't use any other IDE either (I'd prefer CodeBlocks, as it's what I use on Windows, and will use on Linux as soon as I find the time to install it).
It probably has something to do with me being a few versions "behind" and not willing to shell out $$$ for an official developer's license, but guess what? I can install Visual Studio or GCC on my old XP machine and start coding, no license required.
While the Mac may be a somewhat-attractive option as a desktop, and it even has all the trappings of a good developer's workstation, it downright SUCKS for coding. So I'm not even going to consider coding on their dumbed-down tablet OS until I can get a freaking compiler for their so-called "full-power" desktop OS.
My development machine has 24 GB of RAM, an Intel 8 core 3.4 GHz x64 CPU, and the ability to run multiple applications at once on multiple monitors. One of those applications is a virtual machine where I host running copies of other operating systems. I'm accustomed to waiting maybe 5 or 10 seconds for a compile of my current iOS app to complete, which of course is in my virtual Hackintosh, since I chose an OS other than OS X for my main OS. (Relax, I have an official Mac, I just leave it off a lot of the time.)
So let me get this straight. I can drop down to 1 GB of RAM, and 1 GHz dual core CPU of the ARM architecture, which equates to maybe a 200 MHz x86 or something. I sacrifice freedom of choice of main OS in addition to all my virtualization abilities. I have to stare at one lonely monitor running one lonely app at a time. It will likely take 10 minutes simply to compile small to medium sized apps in Xcode, assuming I have enough memory to compile them.
Maybe someday? That's the best I can say at this point.
I know I know, but I do think Windows 8 is getting stuff like this right.
I can take my Wintel 8 tablet and use it as a tablet ( sit on my ass and surf ) as well as hook to a docking station and code. Course I won't because I'll be using my Linux beefy desktop, but when I'm on the road I just want my tablet to operate like a laptop when it's sitting on a desk in a hotel.
As we go forward I can see the difference between a laptop and a tablet just being whether it's got the keyboard hooked to it. I'd love to be able to hook a tablet to dual monitors etc. Maybe even play 3d games. Can I get 3d acceleration in the docking station?
Apple need to consolidates iOS with the OS X so that the difference between the iPad and the MacBook is just when/how your using it.
This isn't all that difference to what happened to the desktop. How many developers you see there programming full time on their MacBook Pro because it has the power that only a desktop could have years earlier.As Intel gets into the game the processor can scale up depending on whether it's on battery or power.
Of course I'll be just as happy if I can take that same tablettop and install linux on it and get the same effects.
How's that going to work for a developer toolchain?
In a hypothetical future SDK built for the iPad, Apple could simply give the SDK app permission to create new sandboxes (running instances of your projects from them).
XCode is already one app (it used to kind of be two, XCode + Interface Builder). It's not hard to imagine it could be ported to the iPad, the trick is re-jiggering editing for a touch screen in such a way that it works.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
well maybe laws will popup to stop this lock down and needing to "allowed" to be a coder.
At least by law we have the right to hack the hardware and run what ever code we want.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_Law_of_Headlines
Silence is a state of mime.
Don't be giving Apple ideas.
Pretty sure he was talking about using an iPad SSH client *on* the iPad, to open a terminal on the same iPad where you would use vim to code.
In short, one device, the iPad.
Otherwise, why specify the keyboard?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Jailbreak, and enjoy!
Anyone who even KNOWS what Emacs is can jailbreak an IOS device...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Any headline which ends in a question mark can be answered by the word 'no'
The biggest thing that stuck out to me with all these comments is when I'm developing I'm using multiple programs. How does this application help the short coming of iOS in a lack of alt-tab?
In other words, you first need to jailbreak your device (also known as attacking your own computer). That is not an answer until Apple makes jailbreaking a built-in feature rather than an exploit.
Palm trees and 8
and then be treated as the enemy by Apple once you jailbreak your iToy.
Apple hired the guy who developed the Jailbrake version of Notification Center to write the offical Apple version.
And you think Apple *dislikes* Jailbreakers?
Since you will only accept a theory that involves Apple being Evil, consider that Apple possibly loves drafting for free off the jailbreak community for future development ideas.
Also the App Store, is not the only iOS App Store you can earn money from.
The iPad is terrible.
It's really, really bad. I have one. I use it to watch PBS -- the PBS app isn't very good. Crashes now and then, video flips back in time and then catches up confusingly, doesn't provide good search tools. But it's portable, and I can use it in the can.
I keep trying to do other stuff with the iPad. Everything I try which claims to make the thing do something well turns out to make it do a crappy job of that task.
Art. SSH. Cheap games. Writing. Note management. Fail, fail, fail, fail, fail.
It's all really bad. Badly designed. Impossible to copy and paste. Impossible to select text quickly. Pointing at things doesn't work all that well (your finger is big). So you can get a stylus and a bluetooth keyboard, but you're still left with a crappy MODEL. It's not a good system for actually doing anything.
People keep telling me they love the iPad. That it works for this or that. But I try what they recommend and what the app always does is make the iPad less horrible. But not less horrible enough.
The iPad is light. It's really portable. But it needs a complete overhaul to do anything well.
Android ain't fantastic either, but it's realy not as bad as the iPad.
It's their system and their rules apply. Don't like their rules? Get something else. Simple as that.
It's getting harder thanks to Apple's BS patents and litigious nature.
If we're talking about seasoned software developers, then the answer is no. Anybody who writes software for a living uses a laptop or desktop computer with a full-size screen and keyboard. Even those who focus exclusively on iOS have Xcode which likely suits their needs just fine. (And if it doesn't, I highly doubt that an iPad port would be any better.)
Aside from all of that, compiling high-level code using a battery-powered ARM processor is using the wrong tool for the job.
/* No Comment */
The iOS developer fee is $100 per year. That doesn't seem costly to me, but people have different ideas about what constitutes an "expensive" purchase. Maybe it's a deterrent to hobbyists, but you'd be hard pressed to find a hobby that people typically spend less than that on either, unless it's urban-forraging or something like that where the goal so to do it for free. In any case, Apple handles all the distribution and provides a relatively safe App store for users so you're getting something for your money.
It works, therefore it is.
Just because you disagree philosophically with WHY it works is not a valid reason to dismiss the answer.
Doesn't jailbreaking void the warranty?
Apple geniuses will not fix OS issues but it does nothing about the hardware warranty.
You can simply reset the phone in iTunes if it concerns you and it will go back to the base OS.
I don't see Apple taking care of a jailbroken phone if it needs physical repairs.
How would they know it was jailbroken if it cannot turn on?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
If Apple gets their way, which they are succeeding at with the current smartphone thermonuclear war, there would be no 'something else'.
In effect, we would all be screwed.
Seriously, could you imagine a world where Apple are the only computing device makers in the world? *shudder*
Which makes your "ANYTHING APP" completely useless to anybody else. And in doing so you become the enemy of Apple by being one of the hated jailbreakers.
Your point being?
If I had an iPad in high school, and no other computer access
Then you are an edge case who is probably not worth serving. If you are in high school, it's far more likely that you have access to at least the high school's computer lab, the city library's computer lab, a user account on the family PC, or at least an Android tablet owned by another family member on which to run AIDE.
Plenty of people develop on a Mac mini.
Which still increases the price by requiring the purchase of either a second (otherwise unnecessary) computer for $650 or the purchase of a $200 second operating system to run in Boot Camp if you instead decide to make the Mac your primary machine. And you have to replace this computer every four years; otherwise you risk not being able to run the latest Mac OS X. And if you're not on a recent Mac OS X, forget about being able to run the latest Xcode needed to target devices running the latest iOS.
Yeah. Meanwhile in reality, Apple's market share in the smartphone market is actually *declining* and nowhere near a monopoly. So stop the fud, there is plenty of choice and there will be plenty of choice in the future.
Pretty good is actually pretty bad.
You might as well claim that [Visual Basic for Applications] is a system for developing software for Windows
And the market does in fact make that claim. For example, Stone Edge is a commercial retail management application written in VBA.
I tell them how they can in fact develop on an iPad.
You call that not an answer. Hmm.
Does your jailbreak method allow developing on a New iPad with fully updated iOS?
without first having to get Apple's permission and without having to connect to the Internet
Those are an odd set of requirements. You have a very narrow definition of "software development."
Are you talking about using the workaround of using SSH or VNC or similar to code on a server through your iPad? That works for some people, but not for me. I code on the bus, where I lack Internet access, and that's why I carry a 10" laptop. Must people pay $420 per year (source: AT&T representative) for cellular Internet in addition to what they already pay for home Internet? Or do you consider people who code while riding public transit an edge case not worth serving?
You claim that a jailbreak "works, therefore it is." But exactly how long will it continue to work? Does it work, for example, immediately after a security update to iOS? By your logic, as I understand it, it will cease to work and therefore cease to be.
PC type systems will be for the very few who do things like CAD, programming, and other tasks that actually need such a device.
Such as things that university students do.
It just means a return to the days where you had to spend $15-20,000 to get that sort of a machine
What university student has $15,000 to spend on a machine on which to do homework? There are state universities where $15,000 covers four years' tuition. When I enrolled in college in 1999, a laptop loaded with academic site-licensed versions of Windows, Microsoft Office, Visual Studio, Maple, AutoCAD, and a bunch of other expensive-ass engineering software cost members of the Rose-Hulman Class of 2003 only $3,600. Or what will university students be expected to use instead?
Just wonder whatll happen spending hours every day pressing a surface with no give in it. I know it doenst take long for my finger tips to go a bit numb, nut after years of use? I doubt it'll be good...
Other small issues like tablets not supporting all media formats etc you also chose to ignore.
Tablets support the media formats used by major-label consumer audio and video recording devices and by the major distributors of recorded media, namely MPEG formats.
Have you tried Python in SL4A?
Um, I hate to break it to you, but Python is used for real programming, and Objective C isn't exactly the most efficient thing in the world.
The market is not what gave us PCs
IBM, a participant in the market, gave us PCs. Before that, other participants in the market gave us 8-bit home microcomputers.
No sane person can claim that VBA is a system for developing Windows applications. It is a macro system, one that is complete enough to allow for the creation of commercially viable applications, but a macro system nonetheless.
As computer technology continues to develop, the definition of what is called a "high level" or "macro" language changes. For example, a long time ago, "macro system" referred to an assembler supporting "macroinstructions", essentially inline subroutines.
VBA is not a substitute or competitor for Visual Studio or other Windows development systems.
Is there a solid dividing line between "macro systems" and proper interpreted programming languages such as JavaScript, PHP, and Python? Or are JavaScript, PHP, and Python, in which high-profile home-user-facing applications are implemented, likewise "not a substitute"?
The author forgot to mention Corona, which is a big one, but I am sure there is more out there too.
That's only if the user doesn't already a Mac.
For the purpose of this discussion, are we assuming that a developer's current PC is (A.) a Mac running Mac OS X or (B.) a PC running Windows?
As for the $200, that's assuming you don't have already have a retail copy of Windows.
I assume that most people won't. Before the release of Windows 7, one could buy a whole Windows PC, an Atom-based Acer AspireRevo or ASUS EeeBox, for the same price as retail Windows.
It's not so long since Apple silently dropped the restriction about iOS apps for programming
There was never any such restriction. The restriction was concerning creating an environment that runs arbitrary code, such as an emulator environment, which would restrict any interpreted programming languages from running arbitrary user-created code on the device. So there was no such restriction as stated, and thus it was never "silently lifted." The restriction against a user running code in a non-native environment is still in place. What has happened is clever programmers are creating apps that access a backend up in the nets that executes the code, so now you can code on iOS (data entry, text editing), test your code on the backend somewhere else (i.e. code is not actually being executed on the iPad), and thus develop programming using an iPad on one of the many clever apps that use this architecture.
The Admin and the Engineer
Call off your patent-trolling dogs and maybe I'll code to your closed, putrescent platform.
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more, Or close the wall up with our American dead!
Call me when you can write a 300,000 line C++ or Java monster on the thing without ending up with debilitating eye or wrist strain injuries.
Python seems to be between 10 and 20 times more expressive than Java. That is, a line of Python does a lot more than a line of Java. I've written a 20,000 line library of Python code for my last employeer, so that's about the equivalent of your 300,000 line Java spaghetti bowl. I can still see. I can still type. And I still have the sanity to want to write in intelligent, high-level languages like Python, Ruby, or even Haskell over your grandfatherly favorites.
I admit that Python idiomatically lacks InterfaceProxyFactoryFactories, but yet we still manage to get work done.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
I code software on the computer I'm sitting at right now. Here's a hint: the base of the unit weights about 60 pounds. Each monitor is 22 inches diagonally. Its not in any way portable (unless you consider unplugging it, hauling it, plugging it and then using it). Where I work, it can be noisy or quiet or anywhere in between -- my option. I'm not going to change where I code in the name of someone's newfangled gizmo. If I have to code for a tablet, I will write most of the code here, then test it on the tablet. The graphical real estate on a tablet is small (unless you have a second display that you can link to the first tablet). Typing code (or typing anything) on a touch screen is like scuba diving in a pile of sand. You don't find people writing novels, doing data entry or any similar activities on a touch screen either. Imagine that. Tablets are output devices. They are for consuming content, not for creating content. Is anyone surprised?
... with perfect touch detection and the power of my mac pro, and I'll drop my keyboard and mouse like they're hot.
People love to predict the death of $X all the time. In the case of technology they are very often wrong. For example mainframes have not died, there are more now than when they were the only kind of computer out there. While they have been totally eclipsed in terms of numbers by other computers, they are still used because they are good at what they do.
Same shit with desktops and laptops. People said laptops would kill the desktop market. Well they didn't. It is a bigger market, but the desktop market hasn't shrunk, just hasn't grown as much because of it.
So no, I don't see iPads killing laptops because that just isn't how things go.
Seriously, what. the. fuck.
How could anyone even consider this?
Do you think developers are lambs to the slaughter?
Makes sense. iPad is a consumer device.
Its sorta funny to mention how cool iPads are and how much cooler if they had a hinged keyboard on them.
I have an HP touchpad which i'd use as a content consumtion device if it was multiuser.
Seriously? Code on an iPad? Why on earth would you want to do that? This tablet fad is getting beyond ridiculous. Is the convenience of holding and carrying of a tablet device so vital that people are willing to trade absolutely everything else for it? This is the age of stupid hybrid OS like Windows 8 coupled to a hybrid device that has a much smaller screen than a standard laptop in a ridiculous 16:9 ratio at a much higher price than a comparably specced laptop just so you can use it as a tablet? Who in their sane mind would want to code on a tablet, I sit here on a 1080p 15.6 screen thinking I really need to pick up a 24"/27" as soon as possible to do real work.
What will the next trend be? Cooking everything in a tiny saucepan over a tiny camping stove because you can carry it everywhere, and we can mock the chefs with their gigantic pans and woks and ovens, who needs those. Abandoning bicycles for unicycles that fit in a suitcase for portability? Wildlife and sports photography with an iPhone, because who needs those SLRs and gigantic 300mm F2.8 lens? Writing and editing books and articles, manuscripts spanning hundreds of pages with a long list of references to be checked, all written on an iPad, because who the hell needs multiple windows open and visible at the same time on the screen, and as for typing, just blindly poke your fingers and autocorrect will seamlessly convert it to beautifully worded text.
Hand tools have their place. If you're building something small, or you want to prove that it can be done, or you just can't afford real tools. But for anything non-trivial, you need power tools, both for home building, and for software building.
Diet Coda (http://panic.com/dietcoda/) has been available on iOS for a few months, and offers all language support that is on their main Coda client on the iPad. It only currently allows remote editing/saving files, which is ehh, but hopefully they will update it to allow files to be synced via iTunes; otherwise it works great!
this has been linked from every article with a question in the headline for the last few months (and modded +5 informative), so these days it's obviously just a quick karma grab.
Ok, I'm throughly confused. I thought Apple's terms restricted being able to transfer code in and out of an interpreter on iOS. If that's the case, how can you use this as a development environment in any reasonable way?
Given that vim is available, then I guess yes, you can do real coding on an iPad.
Anyone that doesn't use vim or emacs is not a real coder
And you should feel bad for asking.
No. Because coding on a tablet is as efficient as riding to work on an elephant.
can != should != will
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
I really don't get the point about coding on a tablet. Why bother doing it when it will always be easier to do it in a "traditional" computer. Sure you can create contents using a tablet, but tablets are designed for content consumption, not for content creation.
The major revolution that came with the iPad is the use of the touch screen. Giving up the keyboard is one thing; embracing touch input is another. There are a lot of tasks in programming, that could be performed much more effectively with touch gestures than with keyboard and mouse. Typing long sequences of text is definitely not the main task in programming. A lot of work consists of trial and error code analysis, code restructuring and debugging. Maybe the keyboard is not as important as we think. I'm currently working on a project called "Touched" which pioneers various touch based code editing techniques. Please check out my first introductory video for details: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1-5mpInDjs
Not so quick there, you probably had it right the first time. Apple autocorrect perchance?
Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Pretty sure he was talking about using an iPad SSH client *on* the iPad, to open a terminal on the same iPad where you would use vim to code.
And the advantage of that over just using mobileterminal is? Either of those scenarios requires jailbreaking, so it's not as if using ssh magically removes that restriction, so I suspect he was not sshing back into his own machine, but instead into another machine.
Back in 1984, the Macintosh was first released. The only way to create applications for it was to run the development tools on the Apple Lisa.
Then, it became possible to run MPW (Macintosh Programmer's Workshop) and then came Lightspeed C aka ThinkC aka Symantec C which ran natively on the Macintosh.
Today, the only way to create native applications for the iPad is by running the development tools on a Macintosh.
Perhaps there is a pattern here?
ipv6 is my vpn
so I suspect he was not sshing back into his own machine, but instead into another machine.
Again, if he's talking about ssh from a real computer, why would he specify a keyboard?
When you say you are using a computer you don't add "Oh, and I have a keyboard too".
I would favor your argument if the keyboard had not been included, some people do ssh from a netbook that otherwise would not have the development toolchain on it the way iOS can.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Well, if you have a tool that allows someone to use one of the above languages to develop Windows applications i.e. to actually use the Windows abstractions, APIs, etc., then sure, you have a development tool for Windows.
And that we have. Python has long had Python Win32 extensions and wxPython, and I was under the impression that JavaScript was a first-class language for WinRT under Windows 8. But any application that relies on abstractions specific to Win32 won't run anywhere but Windows or another environment that provides the Win32 abstractions on top of another system, such as Wine.
Sure, "macro language" is not a particularly well defined term, but I was using it to indicate the difference between a development environment that is constrained to one application and an environment that exposes the abstractions of the operating system.
On the other hand, one could spin a "macro language" as superior because its library offers an abstraction over the operating system, so that one program will run reasonably well on multiple brands of operating system. This is especially true of macro languages that have multiple independent implementations, such as JavaScript. This one is especially interesting because Firefox developers have taken the initiative to add abstractions covering common capabilities in mobile devices.
Stone Edge is a commercial retail management application written in VBA.
That makes me wince.
No, I made Stone Edge wince. At my last job, one of my duties was to write a shim layer between Stone Edge and Windows CE devices. We had a whole bunch of Pocket PC PDAs with built-in laser barcode scanners made by Symbol, and it was my job to write web applications that ran in the built-in IE to help fill orders and audit inventory.
First of all, the developer is choosing to switch platforms
No, the market has made that choice for the developer. From the beginning, Apple has offered the iPhone only in countries where it already had an iTunes Store. But because Android Market offered paid applications in so few countries in its first year, developers had to make their applications ad-supported in order to offer them in most countries. That set price expectations far lower on Android Market than on Apple's App Store, and these early expectations have persisted into Google Play Store despite its expansion into more countries. So a lot of developers see a port to iOS as the only way to put food on the kids' table.
The PC doesn't automatically stop working because the developer bought a new Mac. No one is forcing the developer to stop using his PC.
A developer who buys a Mac and still uses his PC for everything else, rather than replacing it with a Mac as part of his ordinary upgrade cycle, has essentially bought a copy of Xcode for $650 that includes a Mac mini as a dongle.
Apple has no say on how the developer gets Windows
I don't see how that's necessarily correct. If Apple were to offer a Windows dual-boot as a customization option, then people switching from another PC brand to a Mac would have the option to buy a Mac with OEM Windows during the ordinary upgrade cycle instead of having to pay Microsoft double for a retail copy. But Apple has declined to offer a Windows dual-boot as a customization option.
I'm sorry, are you in the game to make money or just fuck around?
It takes money to make money. Where does someone get the initial money to pay for start-up costs, especially if he doesn't already have a track record to show on Kickstarter?
If you don't need to run any Windows software on your primary machine (either because you don't need to run it at all or because you can run it on some other machine)
If someone is making the Mac his primary machine at the end of an ordinary four-year PC upgrade cycle, then he probably has Windows software that he still needs to run, and the old computer isn't powerful enough to run the software he needs anymore. Consider the case of someone who develops software for both Windows and Mac OS X, or both Windows Phone and iPhone, or both Surface and iPad. Would you recommend that he buy two computers and keep both up to date, or that he buy a Mac and retail Windows?
Python seems to be between 10 and 20 times more expressive than Java.
Formally, they're about the same. Both are Turing-complete languages (abstractly, within the bounds imposed by existing on a physical system) and both have gigantic numbers of third-party libraries available that let an awful lot of stuff be done. It's probably the case that Python handles dynamism better, and Java is easier to optimize; those are features that are usually antithetical anyway.
That is, a line of Python does a lot more than a line of Java.
That's a foolish measure to use as a metric of expressivity, given that different languages have different levels of terseness anyway. (Otherwise you'd end up eulogizing Perl6, and you wouldn't want that! Or maybe even J, and that makes most developers' brains hurt with its terseness.)
Don't try to dress up your preferences with pseudo-scientific claims. Just say "I like Python more than Java; it suits the way I think about problems" and let it go at that. (Myself? I happen to prefer Java to Python, but neither is anything like my favorite. Like it matters to you.)
"Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
Autocorrect was trying to tell you why coding on tablets will never take over from desktops/laptops.
Shitty on screen keyboards....
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
So a developer/company who has to develop for Unix/Linux but uses a Windows for everything else has bought an expensive Linux/Unix dongle?
GNU/Linux isn't quite the best example here. Linux has been officially ported to commodity PCs from literally day one, unlike Mac OS X, and a Linux-based operating system can be lawfully downloaded for the cost of bandwidth from Xubuntu.org.
So the your argument is "Wah, Apple doesn't do what I want them to do and become a Windows OEM?"
Exactly. Apple could choose to save Boot Camp users money but instead has chosen not to.
Lenovo refuses to install Red Hat Linux or BSD on their consumer machines. Why aren't you railing on them?
Because GNU/Linux and FreeBSD can be lawfully downloaded for the cost of bandwidth and installed on Lenovo PCs.
Oh because it's Apple.
Not Apple in general. Apple v. Psystar in specific.
the machine used to fight the browser and a mail program and an office suite and... for resources on the machine, and he can and does move his browsing and mail and MS Office stuff and... to the Mac, so that the software no longer has to compete with those other apps for resources.
For one thing, wouldn't someone switching to a Mac as his primary computer need to re-buy Microsoft Office? I'm not familiar with Microsoft's upgrade policy from an application for one platform to the version on another platform. For another, if "his browsing and mail and MS Office stuff and..." are moved to the Mac, and is used solely to run Visual Studio, what method do you recommend to copy from a Mac and paste to a PC running Windows or vice versa? Sometimes, running tools in the same session makes it easier to share information among tools used in a task.
All other things being equal, I'd recommend [buying a copy of retail Windows to run on a Mac]
I agree with you, especially if the Mac one ends up buying is a MacBook and not a Mac mini. Still, Apple could have made the "I'm a Mac and a PC" use case sonewhat cheaper by becoming a Windows OEM and offering a Boot Camp customization option.
CronoCloud keep telling me [that] statistically nobody wants to play video games developed by people with no experience in the mainstream video game industry
Then CronoCloud - whoever the hell that is
A regular on Slashdot who has in the past worked with PS2 Linux but not as a Sony employee. He claims that the only way to develop a video game and get it onto a platform where people will play it is to 1. build a portfolio of games in a completely unrelated genre, 2. use this portfolio to get a job with an established video game company several hundred miles from home, 3. work for this company for several years, and 4. finally start your own company. Otherwise, the developer will have no access to platforms that are ideal for certain genres, and he thinks that's fair and desirable. See one comment, another comment, and yet another comment. Anyone who hasn't worked for an established company is allegedly seen by the game consoles' gatekeepers as a "basement dwelling aspie fanboy wannabe developer". And CronoCloud isn't even the only one making such comments: see this comment where Xeranar shouts "MOVE".
I'm not aware of any real developers who own an ipad, maybe once it gets a qwerty keyboard?