Slashdot Mirror

Did redhat go after $ in the enterprise and lose sight of Linux developers? I'd say yes.

They co-opted the fedora project,gave it ver little resources and virtually *NO* promotion, and tried to downplay it's even existence to all the corporate customers that they are pitching yearly per-server RHN contracts to.

People who had used SuSE before went back and tried SuSE and discovered that SuSE had newer software versions than Redhat

People who might have thought that Debian was only for masochists discovered Ubuntu and decided it was fast, easy, and didn't become "legacy" in 12 months

People who wanted more updated packages and hated breaking RPM dependencies and like to occasionally build things from source or optomize their packages found Gentoo and decided that rebuilding their entire OS could be fun, easy, and that their OS didn't need to become Legacy in 12 months.

Personally, I think that Gentoo is probably the purest Linux distribution, and that if you want the stability of a tried and true distribution that Ubuntu is the best Debian I've seen.

More developers have shifted away from Redhat, and they in turn have been influencing many other people's choice of distribution, and ultimately they are losing mindshare.

I think Redhat has finally realized that they *need* those developers and they're now doing a strange dance to try to pump up Fedora enough to excite the development community, but not enough to dissuade corpoprate customers for paying them for access to patches for RHEL.

"Hey everyone (except corporate customers), look Fedora's great!"

"Hey everyone (except developers), Fedora's unstable and unsupported, use RHEL!"

if you're wanting an OS to play games, I'd say try Gentoo, and maybe check out Ubuntu as well.

I'm a Gentoo guy, but I totally understand why people wouldn't want to go through the long install process. This is why VidaLinux exists. VidaLinux is essentially a precompiled Gentoo (with Gnome 2.8, etc), installed with Redhat's Anaconda Installer. works amazingly well Full working Gentoo distribution up and running in under an hour.

don't want to compile future packages? that's allright. just check out Project Chinstrap, which has precompiled packages for Gentoo. Easy as pie.

Ubuntu has its share of issues, but overall, it's a top-notch choice as well. both should work amazingly well for games.

You are legally entitled and encouraged to copy, share, and redistribute this CD, for yourself and your friends.

how many people can install WINDOWS? just the other week I had to pull a hd out of a system and defragment the HD because the windows installer had locked up due to a 97% fragmented HDD... The person who did it, was trying to fix a slow computer issue by replacing her old windows ME with windows XP, the slowness was obviously due to disk fragmentation, although a quick scan for spyware found one spyware application that had come with a shareware screensaver. See, most people think they're technically savy --; when they've got reinstalling windows by themsleves to fix serious issues down pat. I had actually mentioned to the person that oftentimes windows needs to be defragmented when a computer slows down, and if that doesn't fix it it's probabbly spyware and she STILL tried to use an upgrade CD of windows XP to try to 'fix' a computer that only needed defragmenting.
Installers are getting better, live CDs are great
fyi the mirrors for ubuntu have live cds and live cd torrents. Literally as easy as popping in a CD and you can 'try' linux on a computer. True, the live CD isn't optimized for AMD 64 (they have an AMD 64 installer, though) but it should run in the 64's 32-bit mode anyways. not sure and I don't have a 64 around the house to test the live with :

18 months of support is not good enough.

It's a common misconception. Ubuntu has all the packages that Debian does, just with more recent versions. The assurance that people get from Debian stable is that the packages won't change. Ubuntu releases are the same way, except they don't take three years. Each release is supported for 18 months, which is terribly long, but upgrading once every 18 months isn't too often for most people.

Kubuntu. Hoary should be a bit more KDE friendly than Warty was.

1. Loudly accuse anyone who objects to your choice of Ubuntu of being sexist racist white supremacists. If they happen to be black you can call them "Oreo" blacks.
2. When they fire you for being a jerk, hire Johnny Cochrane and sue them.
3. Collect millions and then retire, really rich, to South Africa where the AIDS vectors don't usually rape really rich whites like Mark Shutleworth and you.

You're welcome.

Ah - I think you'll find that it's 'grumpy groundhog' actually. No, really.
http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/releases/documen t_view/

There is NO customer support other than the support you get from a listserv full of other people who can 't get help with their problems.

See Ubuntu Paid Technical Support for a list of options

If they distribute Sun's version of Java, then they're not allowed to distribute any other versions like gcj. That's why Debian doesn't distribute it. Blame Sun for their licensing. Check out the Java page on the wiki for installation instructions.

There is NO customer support other than the support you get from a listserv full of other people who can 't get help with their problems.

The developers are on the list and respond to many of the questions people have. Instead of having someone walk you through a flowchart of possible problems, you get real people who have dealt with the problems before. Anything new gets added to the wiki, which is pretty easy to search. Try it out before you say it's overrated. It's the best distro I've used.

After trying all the major distros, I've become a real fan of Ubuntu. It's the first distro that I think could have a real potential to become THE desktop Linux. It's Debian from the inside and something different from the outside. When installing Linux to my friends, I no longer have to pound Debian to become a decent desktop OS. Ubuntu is that out of the box. Still Ubuntu retains the configurability of Debian.

Yet Ubuntu needs some tweaking too. E.g. I hate spatial Nautilus, so I always change it to the browser view. Default apt repositories aren't enough, so I add Ubuntu Universe, Multiverse, Backports and Debian Marillat repos to /etc/apt/sources.list. I also setup apt-pinning.

One can always argue that Suse, Mandrake and other KDE based distros might have some potential as THE desktop Linux, but I personally dislike KDE. It's too heavy and bloated for my taste.

They are a very straightforward and logical desktop layout for maintaining (installing apps, etc) things.

They are a very straightforward and logical desktop layout for maintaining (installing apps, etc) things.

I was thinking the same thing. As for Ubuntu itself, it's a very pretty/polished version of debian. For this release, after some digging around I found the main Hoary wiki . On that page there is a link to the main goals of this release.

In short: Gnome 2.9/2.10, Xorg, LiveCD redesign, more package management ie. update notification, KickStart (auto-installation).

There are many smaller improvements (or ones that might not make it in) and of course updated versions of packages. There are no big bombshells and your desktop will likely look the same.

The killer feature I would like to see is the integration of RedHat/Fedora's Anaconda installer. , a la Progeny Linux. Why do we deal with Ncurses based installers anymore? Other than that, keep up the good work, I love the distro.

I was thinking the same thing. As for Ubuntu itself, it's a very pretty/polished version of debian. For this release, after some digging around I found the main Hoary wiki . On that page there is a link to the main goals of this release.

In short: Gnome 2.9/2.10, Xorg, LiveCD redesign, more package management ie. update notification, KickStart (auto-installation).

There are many smaller improvements (or ones that might not make it in) and of course updated versions of packages. There are no big bombshells and your desktop will likely look the same.

The killer feature I would like to see is the integration of RedHat/Fedora's Anaconda installer. , a la Progeny Linux. Why do we deal with Ncurses based installers anymore? Other than that, keep up the good work, I love the distro.

You mean something like APT?

Ok, so debian might be a bit hard to install and get running for home users. But that's where Ubuntu comes into the picture. The power of debian without the hassle.
I'm just gleefully waiting for the next version to come out right now, as the first release had a few rough edges :-)

...Windows 3.1 or NT 3.5.

I think Gnome/KDE and distro maintainers should stay as far away as possible from bland blue+white+grey themes and Arial lookalike fonts. Leave that crap to MS, and come up with something at least a little original and distinctive. Like Unbutu Linux has done, for example.

In fact, I always encourage the graphic designers I know to contribute to my favorite OSS projects, although none have so far. I'll try again, but everyone else out there, please do the same... engineers and programmers are generally not good at user interface design.

Yup, Ubuntu 5.04 (The Hoary hedgehog) will ship with 2.10 - Gnome is the default desktop and it's policy to synchronise releases.
If you can't wait till April, then you can get preview isos and preview live cds from the ubuntu site: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/GettingUbuntu
Gnoppix is shipping a live cd beta based on Hoary, with 2.9.3: http://www.gnoppix.org/ available for *three* - count 'em - platforms: x86, AMD64 and PPC.

John

I'm not running any sort of heavy duty server, so fucking forget dealing with Linux.

Umm, these days Linux runs on watches, PVRs, routers, desktops, toasters, and, yes, servers too.

It's also pretty easy to use, if you use the right distro.

Warning: Redhat Rant Ahead

How does letting Joe Smoe and his small business run RHEL without the support take focus from the server market? Redhat doesn't have to exclude people who can't afford their support from running their distribution. They could just not support you unless you purchase support, and let you run their stable product.

The fact is, they have excluded people from their stable product, people who in fact helped them gain their marketshare. Maybe their new business model is better for everyone, but I think perhaps Redhat may be 'killing the goose that laid the golden egg' by essentially excluding the very people who helped pushed them to the top of the Linux distro ladder. Redhat did very little in the way of advertising (probably due to lack of cash), most of their early advertising was word of mouth. "Hey, use this, it's free, and if you want support, you can buy some." They owe much of their success to developer and user acceptance of their earlier products.

Redhat has made some great contributions, and they continue do to so, and we have to commend them for this, however, Redhat has led me to the conclusion that if you want to run a free Linux that is socially stable (ie doesn't change their product and offerings every time they get a new CEO), you have to run one that is non-profit. Debian and Ubuntu are good examples of non-profit Linuxes that probably won't be offering you any negative suprises in the next year.

Yes, they have to make money to survive, but there appears to be a fine line between making money off of free software and alienating the community. I'm thinking Redhat is trying to get back to the center of this line, though I am personally hoping that something like Ubuntu becomes the new community darling, and Redhat becomes a niche player for the wealthiest of companies.

Note: I migrated my users and servers from SunOS and Digital Unix to Redhat about 5 years ago, and migrated servers from Redhat 9 to Debian Woody about 2 years ago, and am currently in the market for a Desktop Linux replacment for Fedora.

Neh I don't care about an Offtopic mod. I've got karma to burn. But I would like to help you out some.

I read that you have a decent machine, so any distro will run fine on it. Can I ask why Mandrake? The reason I ask is because I used to be a Mandrake person. For details, check my blog entry

I know, it's very verbose. In a nutshell I declare Ubuntu the coolest distro ever. Don't let the name throw you off. It's a serious distro with some serious cash and brainy people behind it.

Furthermore - you can order the CD's at no cost to yourself. Yep - they ship them to you for free. So can that 56K download and order the CD's instead.

Mine rocked up about 3 months after I ordered them, but I hear that that was because of the demand for the CD's. It might be quicker now. OTOH If you want to pay for the shipping I'll be happy to throw one of my CD's in the post for ya. Drop me a line on my webpage if you're interested.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. Ubuntu is the best desktop OS for PC's I've seen. Period. Put it this way, I just installed it on my girlfriend's grandmother's laptop, and she likes it. That should tell you something.

And you are free to talk about Hoary.

Pretty much what Ubuntu Linux does to a PC.

Only the PC is quicker, cheaper and more extensible

UPDATE: The Ubuntu CD Distribution System will NOT close to new orders for Warty CDs as previously announced. Thanks to everyone who emailed to ask us to keep the free CD shipments going for Warty. See the CD FAQ for more info.

Sarge is great. When it becomes the new Stable, I may just switch from Testing to Stable.

...and shortly after that, switch to the new Testing. They call it "Debian Stale" for a reason. You know cool stuff is going to show up in Testing that'll take many months to make its way into Stable. Are you really willing to wait that long?

Sure, you could maintain a massive sources.list with a bunch of third party repositories. Or you could just upgrade to Testing.

Stable is good for servers, but on desktops testing/unstable is practically compulsory.

And then there's Ubuntu...

http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ They will mail (snail) you 10 copies for free... The installer is nice and the desktop looks pretty damn good... Uptown (not an Ubuntu salesman) Joe nopes, not anymore.. Though you can still download cd isos from:http://www.ubuntulinux.org/download/ their download page.

Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if there was a stable version of Debian that was updated every six months or so? Something that had the wealth and quality of debian packages, but with a focus on a great stable desktop release? Yes, that sure would be nice if something existed like that. Alas, we can only idlely wish for that, as nothing similar exists in the linux world.

Debian Woody is all fine and dandy, but the best Debian desktop "release" so far is Ubuntu. Libranet isn't bad either, but if you want a powerful libre Linux desktop, try Ubuntu.

And if you didn't figure it out already, Ubuntu is based on Debian.

One potater, two potater, three potater four. All as healthy and mature as any linux distribution, but it's not like most would ever buy a Mac just to run linux.

Unless this is another of those "just cause I can" things. :-)

Maybe you should try and install Ubuntu on your grandmother's computer.

Why Xandros?
Xandros is for straight girls.

Just go to any cheap Linux CDs online
order about 6 different distros
order some 3-4 live CDs
and you still get more for your money.

Then play , experiment , learn ...
If you rush - you will be one of those trolling weeping how horrible Linux is - etc etc

Ubuntu seems a very good choice for the utter newbie. absolutely free - and lesbians really love it.

Come to think of it - what is a distro for queers? Lycoris?

I know the feeling. When I visited my family back home for a week, I worked on 8 PCs before I left. If you're handing out stuff in lieu of fixing hte computer, you might consider the Ubuntu CD package. Last I checked Ubuntu is still shipping free pressed CD packs. I just received all 10 of mine yesterday, and they look good. The package includes both a Live CD and an Install CD, with a brief explanation of what each does. I plan to hand the CD out to people I think would be interested in trying something different.

I know the feeling. When I visited my family back home for a week, I worked on 8 PCs before I left. If you're handing out stuff in lieu of fixing hte computer, you might consider the Ubuntu CD package. Last I checked Ubuntu is still shipping free pressed CD packs. I just received all 10 of mine yesterday, and they look good. The package includes both a Live CD and an Install CD, with a brief explanation of what each does. I plan to hand the CD out to people I think would be interested in trying something different.

Really, Knoppix is everyone's favorite? Give me Ubuntu's Live CD any day!

Easier said than done on some platforms. Nvu as a stand-alone application is fairly new, and not supported on on a lot of Linux distros. For example, I use Ubuntu, and there's a whole song-and-dance to go through just to install it.

http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/h owto/helpcenterhowto.2004-10-20.3307060179/view?se archterm=nvu

I'm a slightly above-average joe desktop user, but if I can't find what I want using Synaptic, then I don't bother.

I'm sitting on pins and needles for Nvu to be available in Ubuntu's Universe repository. I don't want to bother having the Mozilla suite, and Firefox, and Thunderbird, and Nvu. It's just waaay to redundant.

I just participated in a rather heated discussion over on Larry Lessig's blog about how the perception about gratis / libre software is that the word "free" is associated with it, and "free" has two distinct (though not necessarily contradictory) meanings.

Lots of people still hear "free software" and expect that there's no such thing as a free lunch. Now, having been a participant in the open source community for a while now, indeed, it's not a free lunch exactly. Users are asked to comment, provide feedback, and report errors.

But that's a far cry from using a security nightmare of a browser or paying $400 for that productivity suite, isn't it?

No one in my curosry search of the thread has mentioned Ubuntu, which is currently distributing free packages of their software. I've installed it on my box and love it dearly, already. Many friends have been impressed with what they've seen as well.

Interestingly, on the Live CD that comes with the x86 package, there's also an autorun setup for Windows. If you pop the disc in while running Windows, it presents you with the opportunity to install some of the best F/OSS around:

-Firefox
-Thunderbird
-The Gimp
-Audacity
-OO.o
-A couple other programs I don't recall ATM

My budding computer geek brother has never been willing to adopt Linux (saying things like "there are too damn many flavors," etc.). However, now that he's had a chance to use the programs I use every day, he's also beginning to see why maybe I like my system.

IMHO, porting quality F/OSS to Windows is a great way to show people that libre doesn't mean gratis, and gratis doesn't mean cheap. It's important we as a community educate others about the way the community can develop software and GUIs and all this wonderful tech -- but do it in terms that help them understand the big picture at the same time.

Stripped down? I use XP Home on my laptop and develop software for a living. The only thing you cannot do on Home that you can on Pro is localhosting of web-apps. I see no need since I have development servers to host them on (plus if my laptop gets stolen I don't have to worry about what HIPAA related data might have been on it).

OEM is the same as buying it retail from Best Buy. No support. Additional hardware can be something as cheap as a $1.49 ATA Cable

If you need support you certainly shouldn't be installing an OS yourself. Xandros offers 60 Days for the Deluxe version and 30 Days for the Standard version. This support is INSTALL SUPPORT ONLY. Microsoft offers the same OEM or Retail (you pay).

My comparison was primarily on cost. How the hell can you simply program a few interfaces for things like VPN take 10's of thousands of hours of someone elses work and charge the same as the Evil Empire? It doesn't make sense to me.

BTW Ubuntu is comparable and it's free. Like Fedora... and many more

1. I *DO NOT* want a Windows replacement, I want something better.

Look at Gnome on a desktop like Ubuntu. It's not better in all respects yet, though it is often much better. The folks on the Gnome project are showing how to do a clean desktop with just what you need...where it makes sense and where it is consistant. A simple thing is that they put the desktop application menu on the top -- not on the bottom. For corporate use, it would be the one I'd like to support and not KDE.

For the record, while I use Evolution right now I'm using KDE and have for the last few years and enjoy it. It is entirely likely that I'll switch to Gnome in the next 6 months.

That's true, we are partnering with Ubuntu. The current version of the Ubuntu LiveCD has a scaled-down version of TheOpenCD on it. Get your copy here.

I have noticed that Jeff Waugh is quite involved with Ubuntu http://ubuntulinux.org/ these days. This *might* have something to do with him not running...?

Deluxe Edition. I bought it ages ago but haven't used it for a long time, I'm now going to install it on a box for my parents. My main problem was that you were extremely restricted, you couldn't upgrade KDE by yourself, for example, without breaking something, you couldn't upgrade the kernal, without breaking something. They were simply too restrictive, dictating everything, if you want a desktop that you'll never upgrade, then it's great, if you want to wait a year for upgrades AND pay for them after having already PAID for Xandros itself, then go ahead, otherwise, Ubuntu is your friend.

You are not alone with that one :)

How about KDE 3.3?

Not that it really matters anymore - many of whom have been waiting for Sarge have got with the program and switched to Ubuntu.

Also, this might help combat the "Debian [stable] never includes new stuff" meme. Another good thing.

Actually, you can order your upgrade disk today. I just got 10 packs, nice bi-fold cds, with version 4.1, an install AND a live cd in each set. No charge. High quality packages too.

As well as being able to boot into Ubuntu linux desktop, the Ubuntu linux live CD also includes Windows versions of OpenOffice.org, Firefox, Thunderbird, Abiword, Gimp, PDFCreator and Audacity. These use the installer from The OpenCD.

Try Ubuntu Linux at http://ubuntulinux.org/

Up until that I use to go back to Windows for my destops after about a week or so.

Ubuntu installs EXACTLY like you describe and Everything Just Works(tm)

Check out Ubuntu. From what I've heard (friend of mine tried it) install should be rather painless.

Here's the Ubuntu About page for more info.

Check out Ubuntu. From what I've heard (friend of mine tried it) install should be rather painless.

Here's the Ubuntu About page for more info.